Show: ALL IN with CHRIS HAYES Date: October 12, 2016 Guest: Rick Wilson, Tara Dowdell, Liz Plank, Erin Gloria Ryan, A.J. Delgado, Lisa Bloom, Glenn Greenwald, John Dean
CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST: Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes. We have breaking news at this hour, a bombshell report from "New York Times," two women on the record saying that Donald Trump did exactly to them what he had boasted about in that now infamous "Access Hollywood" tape.
One woman, Rachel Crooks was a 22-year-old receptionist for a company in Trump Tower when she encountered Trump outside an elevator in the building one morning in 2005, she says, aware her company did business with Trump. She said, she turned and introduced herself, hey shook hands, but Trump would not let go, she said, instead, he began kissing her cheeks, then she said he kissed me directly on the mouth, it didn`t feel like an accident, she said it felt like a violation. It was so inappropriate, Ms. Crooks recalled in an interview, "I was so upset that he thought I was so insignificant that he could do that." Another woman, Jessica Leeds, also on the record, in fact in video, tell The Times that in the early 1980s, she was seated randomly next to Trump on a flight to New York, on first class, after a meal was served, that`s when Leeds says Trump groped her.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JESSICA LEEDS, BUSINESS WOMAN ALLEGEDLY GROPED BY TRUMP: It wasn`t until they cleared the meal that somehow or another -- the armrest in the seat disappeared, and it was a real shock when all of a sudden his hands were all over me. He started encroaching on my space, and I hesitate to use this expression, but I`m going to, and that is he was like an octopus, it was like he had six arms, he was all over the place, and if he had stuck with the upper part of the body, I might not have gotten - I might not have gotten that upset, but it`s when he started putting his hand up my skirt, and that was it. That was it, I was out of there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: NBC News has not spoken of the two women and Trump has denied the allegations. The Times quote, "None of this ever took place," Trump said, and began shouting at The Times reporter who was questioning him, he said The Times was making up the allegations to hurt him, that he would sue the news organization if it reported them, "You are a disgusting human being," he told the reporter as she questioned him about the women`s claims. Asked whether he had ever done any of the kissing or groping that he had explicitly described on the recording, Trump was once again insistent, "I don`t do it, I don`t do it, it was locker room talk." Locker room talk is a phrase Trump campaign - and his campaign have repeatedly used to dismiss his vulgar, predatory comments in the Access Hollywood tape, and in Sunday`s debate, he denied explicitly ever doing what he had said he did on the tape.
(BEGIN VIVDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON COOPER, DEBATE MODERATOR: Just for the record though, are you saying that what you said on that bus 11 years ago, that you did not actually kiss women without consent or grope women without consent?
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I have great respect for women, nobody has more respect for women than I do --
COOPER: So for the record, you`re saying you`ve never did that?
TRUMP: I said things that frankly -- you hear these things I`ve said, and I was embarrassed by it, but I have tremendous respect for women.
COOPER: Have you ever done those things?
TRUMP: And the women have respect for me. And I will tell you, no, I have not.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: Tonight, the Trump campaign is denying the accusations made in New York Times article, issuing a statement, that reads in part, "This entire article is fiction, and for The New York Times to launch completely false, coordinated character assassination against Mr. Trump on a topic like this is dangerous. To reach back decades in an attempt to smear Mr. Trump trivializes sexual assault, and it sets a new low for where the media is willing to go in its efforts to determine this election." Joining me now by phone from Florida where Trump was today, NBC News Correspondent Katy Tur. Katy, of course, you`ve been covering this campaign - the Trump campaign for months, what is - what are things like in their bunker?
KATY TUR, NBC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Well, the Trump campaign certainly was not thinking that this would be such a bad week, or they were hoping that this would not be such a bad week, but it seems to be spiralling out of their control. This is just the latest allegation of many that have come out in the past few days where Donald Trump has been accuse of inappropriate behaviour towards women. In The New York Times, he just laid out two women saying that he inappropriately touched them. BuzzFeed had an article this morning saying four teens had -- Donald Trump walked in on four teens during the Miss Teen USA Pageant while they were changing. Then there`s (INAUDIBLE) tonight coming out with a video of Donald Trump saying that he wanted to date a 10-year-old girl in about 10 years, that came out today. The Palm Beach Post out with a story just now talking about how one woman said that he is behaved inappropriate with her - inappropriately with her, sexually assault her back stage at a Ray Charles Concert 13 years ago. Then there`s a -- if you got to go back now and look at the Jill Harth allegation to `97 in a lawsuit saying that Donald Trump groped her in Ivanka`s bedroom, down at Mar-a-Lago. Then, Chris, there`s also the allegations that the - his ex-wife Ivana laid out during their divorce proceedings in 1992 divorce deposition where she claimed that Donald Trump forced himself on her, and she recanted that story, but that is on the record at that time. Now, the campaign is denying all these, they`re questioning the timing of it, as you said, they`re questioning the context of it, saying, "Why are these coming out now, decades later, during the course of a political campaign?" It is important to note that many of these claims aren`t verifiable independently by NBC News.
TUR: There are women who come out and said that they happened decades ago, and the campaign is trying to force that narrative saying that these are not credible females, they`re not credible women, certainly with the BuzzFeed article, they`re pointing it on the other women, who were girls at the time, some of them are 15, saying that they did not see this happen. This is as the campaign itself is trying to paint Bill Clinton as the abuser during this campaign, somebody who has forced himself on women. There`s a report out that if they want to paint Bill Clinton as the next Bill Cosby, basically, certainly though this does not line up with their plans, it is not the campaign is welcoming, it is something the campaign was worried about breaking, and lo and behold, here it is.
HAYES: All right. Katy Tur, thank you for that. The Trump campaign reached out to us tonight, asked us to talk to Campaign Senior Advisor A.J. Delgado for her response, she now joins us by phone. A.J., my understanding is that the official line of the campaign about both these women, and the third women who was in the Palm Beach Post, is that these are -- that they are wrong, they`re making - they`re making these stories up.
A.J. DELGADO, TRUMP`S CAMPAIGN SENIOR ADVISOR: That`s absolutely right, and that`s my position, Chris. And as a woman, to be frank with you, I`m livid of having read this, not only on these accusations simply not credible, but it`s disgusting that The New York Times is trivializing sexual assault. That`s why I take great offensive at as a woman and -
HAYES: Why are they not - A.J., why are they not credible? The woman who was on camera basically said that she - that both women in New York Times said the thing that made them come forward is watching Donald Trump explicitly deny that he would quote, "Grab a woman by the p-word or kiss them against their will," which is what he said he would do on that tape, and that when they saw him deny that, they said he did that to me and came forward.
DELGADO: Oh, I`ll tell you why because these allegations are decades old. If somebody actually did that, Chris, any reasonable woman would have come forward and said something -
HAYES: Isn`t that trivializing sexual assault? Do you think that sexual assault -
DELGADO: Chris, mention the fact that in the New York Times piece itself, they`ve mentioned at the very end, "Gee, how convenient that both of these women are Hillary Clinton supporters and Hillary Clinton donors." Forgive me for not finding this credible.
HAYES: So, you think this is - this is invented, essentially sabotage and also that the fact that they didn`t come forward at the time, although they contemporaneously told friends of theirs who then talked to New York Times -
HAYES: -- that they - that they -- that not coming forward at the time a sexual assault happens, unless you do it at the time, then the sexual assault didn`t happen?
DELGADO: No, I`m not saying that. I`m saying that`s not -
HAYES: That`s why you said - that`s why you said that it wasn`t credible.
DELGADO: That`s not the only reason, I`m also finding it quite dubious the fact that they`re Hillary Clinton supporters and Hillary Clinton donors.
HAYES: And the woman in the Palm Beach Post?
DELGADO: The woman in the Palm Beach Post, Chris, did you read the article? She herself said that she felt somebody grab or pinch her butt and she turned around and she thinks it was Donald Trump because Donald Trump was standing nearby. Does that sound credible to you? Picture of this where your son being accused of this, that`s not credible to me as a woman, as somebody who has been sexual assaulted, I`m livid that the New York Times is trivializing sexual assault this way.
HAYES: So - but -- it seems to me the context here, A.J, is that he -- Donald Trump was caught on tape saying that he kisses women without their consent, that he grabs them without their consent, that he grabs them by their genitals without their consent.
DELGADO: No, he said he can do that, not that he does do that.
HAYES: He said you do it - no, he said they let you do it, he didn`t say they hypothetically would let you do it, he said they let you do it, that was the exact wording.
DELGADO: No, he said, you can get away with that, that`s a hypothetical (INAUDIBLE)
HAYES: They let you do anything. So you`re -- so the contention is that it was entirely hypothetical there, and that all of the women who have come forward are not credible and making it up. That`s the sum total.
DELGADO: Well, what is all? You make it sound like 20, this isn`t Bill Clinton we`re talking about. There, you do have some --
DELGADO: -- has come forward, including allegedly rapes. So, what`s the need of response when that happens? Oh, it`s only one person`s word against somebody else or Joy Behar calling them (INAUDIBLE) suddenly when the accusation is against Donald Trump, there is -
HAYES: I understand -- and I understand why you guys want to make it about Bill Clinton, but he`s not running for president right now in the next couple of weeks.
DELGADO: He`ll be back in the White House, though.
HAYES: Right. But he`s not running for president.
DELGADO: Back around 22-year-old interns and that to me and as somebody who cares about young women, that to me, is a huge concern.
HAYES: OK. A.J. Delgado, Senior Advisor to the Trump`s Campaign, I appreciate your time tonight, A.J. Thank you.
DELGADO: Thank you.
HAYES: I`m joined now by Attorney Lisa Bloom, who`s representing another one of Trump`s accusers, Jill Harth, who sued Trump for sexual harassment in 1997. Your reaction to the fact that we now have three women on the record. In the past hour or so, there`s also - there`s a June Facebook post from 2013, Miss Washington, which has now resurfaced, I think in the light of what`s happening, saying that Trump had groped her, what do you make of all this?
LISA BLOOM, ATTORNEY OF JILL HARTH: So, there`s now six women by my count, and Jill Harth, my client, who`s been out there for three months talking about her 1997 lawsuit, where so she did complain contemporaneously that should satisfy the Trump defenders, and her ex-husband still supports her all of these years later, even though he`s her ex-husband and corroborates all of her allegations from 1997.
BLOOM: And her allegations are that Trump continuously groped her on numerous occasions under the table when they were trying to do a business deal, including in a children`s bedroom at Mar-a-Lago. Those are her allegations, they`ve been out there since 1997 and I hope that Trump being caught on tape bragging about sexual assault and the other women now coming out and rest assured, there are going to be many, many more, I hope that this certainly validates not only Jill Harth, but what all of the women have been saying about Donald Trump. How many women have to accuse him of sexual assault and sexual harassment before they are believed? Is it going to have to be 12, 20, 50, 60 like Bill Cosby, at some point, we have to start believing women.
HAYES: We have seen this - we`ve seen this some more pattern in two cases and I want to make it very clear that the actual alleged behaviour in both cases are different but they`re two very prominent, very powerful man, Bill Cosby and then Roger Ailes of Fox News, somewhat similar patterns in this respect, accusations of sexual assault, or sexual misconduct or sexual harassment. One, two, three, off the record, on the record, until essentially a crescendo, a kind of chorus, in which it was very difficult to dismiss all of that.
BLOOM: Yes, and I have spent many hours over the last few days talking to women who are terrified about coming forward. And I think many more will come forward, because every woman who comes forward, feels more, you know, empowered by those who came before her. Each woman stands on the shoulders of those who came before her. And so, what women really hate is being called a liar, that`s what the New York Times women said, that`s what my client Jill Harth said she kept quiet for many years. By the way, she was a Trump`s supporter, and that`s being used against her, how could she have, you know, gone through this 20 years ago, and then be a Trump supporter. So, I guess from the Trump people, if you`re a Hillary supporter, then you lose, if you`re a Trump supporter, then you lose, you really can`t win. You know, these are women across the political spectrum who are coming out now against Donald Trump, and I think there`s going to be dozens and dozens more in the next couple of weeks.
HAYES: All right. Lisa Bloom, thank you for that. I had more fallout from tonight`s bombshell accusation report New York Times, plus new allegations about Donald Trump`s back stage behavior. This time, it is Miss Teen USA Pageants. Stay with us.
HAYES: Hi! Breaking news this hour, two women telling New York Times Donald Trump touched them inappropriately, putting it mildly, Trump campaign is responding, "This entire article is fiction, the Palm Beach Post talking another woman that said she was groped by Trump at Mar-a-Lago 13 years ago. Hope Picks, Trump`s press secretary saying tonight, "There is no truth to this whatsoever." Joining me now, Liz Plank, Senior Correspondent for Vox; Erin Gloria Ryan, Senior Editor for the Daily Beast. Well, you guys got to see the whole pan of play of that. Your response to what is on -
ERIN GLORIA RYAN, SENIOR EDITOR FOR THE DAILY BEAST: I think that it`s ironic for a candidate that is so into strengthening our country`s borders, he`s so disrespectful of people`s boundaries.
HAYES: That`s right.
RYAN: You see, you know, this is obviously a pattern, he -- and this is something that he has not lied about. This is something that Donald Trump has been honest about. He has lied about, you know, his wealth perhaps, he has lied about his - whether or not he pays taxes, and Hillary`s positions and where Obama was born, but he definitely has not lied about the fact that he`s sexist.
HAYES: This is - you`d have a great piece (INAUDIBLE) making this case today, which is, you know, it`s like that he does the - you know, he does this reading of the snake where the snake says, like, "I - it`s in my nature to kill - to kill you, and you take me in, and then I bite you."
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yeah.
HAYES: As far as sexism goes, I mean, Donald Trump is who he is. I mean, the man ran beauty pageants and -
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Uh-hmm.
HAYES: -- he came into sort of public life as a sort of legendary misogynist.
LIZ PLANK, SENIOR CORRESPONDENT FOR VOX: Right. I mean, that`s his - that`s his thing. Like his brand.
HAYES: Like his brand. Correct.
PLANK: Like even before coming out of the gate with the first debate when he made Megyn Kelly`s menstrual cycle an issue in this election on the front page of The New York Times after the debate, it was clear to all of us that he, you know, exudes this brand of objectification of women. And since then, has proved this line over and over and over again. I mean, Donald Trump doesn`t only talk about women in a - in a way that`s, you know, objectifying and disrespectful and demeaning, he`s been accused as Katy Tur said earlier in the show of rape. He`s been accused of sexual assault, he`s been accused of sexual harassment. So, for women who`ve been paying attention to this election, it wasn`t a question of when - you know, if these stories were going to come out, it`s a question of when they (INAUDIBLE)
HAYES: And I`m reminded, I want to be clear right about the distinctions between various infractions, right? So, using terrible words to describe women is in one category, sexual harassment is in one category, groping is one category, rape is like - these - I don`t want to run everything together, because obviously there`s like distinctions here. But I am reminded of the fact that literally the first question the man faced in the debate.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
HAYES: When this whole thing kicked off, was the Megyn Kelly question - this was - it wasn`t like people went into this with her eyes closed. The first thing that happened is he got on stage and (INAUDIBLE) Megyn Kelly ran through a bunch of things he had said about women.
RYAN: Right. Well, this is a screenplay. This is where the person making notes, and it would be like two (INAUDIBLE) everything that has happened has been so predictable and so just set up for us. And he even, you know, recently kind of has goaded the press to look up more details of this alleged sexism. And so, the press did. It`s like he was so overconfident that somehow he was smarter than the press, and he could - he could prevent these old stories from coming to life or he forgot about them. That`s insane to me.
PLANK: Well, at the beginning he showed that he doesn`t understand what sexual assault is. I mean, when (INAUDIBLE) Anderson Cooper -
HAYES: He said that`s -
PLANK: -- because that`s sexual assault. No, no. So, a man who`s running for president right now does not understand what sexual assault is. That`s the thing.
HAYES: What do you - what`s the - we got a reporting from Joshua Green of Bloomberg again. All these stuff is happening of - in a (INAUDIBLE) there`s like a tape from an old entertainment tonight, saying about him talking about 10-year-olds which is gross. And I`m not going to get into, and there`s a BuzzFeed story, which is really disturbing, in which a bunch of Miss Teen USA contestants, 14 and 15-year olds who are in a state of undress, he barges into the dressing room.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right.
HAYES: This is something - barging into the dressing room of pageants is something that he -
RYAN: Right. It`s bound to routine behavior.
RYAN: Like he doesn`t respect women`s physical space. He doesn`t respect their privacy. He doesn`t respect them as human beings. He thinks that they`re a degrade, and there`s something - that`s something that he can do because he`s Donald Trump.
HAYES: There - oh, I just want to say that Bloomberg is now saying that their - the Bannon folks, you know, Steve Bannon, the ex-head of Breitbart are going to go nuclear on Bill Clinton. But this is going to be the response and they`re going to turn Bill Clinton into Bill Cosby.
PLANK: You know what`s so interesting as I`m watching the - as I was here watching the show at the beginning, we`re getting a textbook class, like a 101 beginner class to how powerful men get away with assault, right? The thing that are coming out of the Donald Trump campaign, the thing that the surrogate told you over the phone, you know, sort of saying that these women can`t be believed because of their political positions. Things that these women can`t believe it was 10 years ago. These women were afraid to come forward clearly with their allegations and they`re doing it now. But I don`t think that even - I mean, Bill Clinton is not the next Bill Cosby. I don`t think Donald Trump is the next Bill Cosby. I think Donald Trump is the next Donald Trump.
PLANK: And we`re going to get so many of these stories coming out. This is the tip of the iceberg.
RYAN: I also think that they can`t really play both sides of the coin here. You know, like, either people who say they were sexual assaulted or harassed years ago can be believed or they can`t.
RYAN: And you don`t get to say that they can if and only if. That`s just not even -
HAYES: Right. And they`re simultaneously saying in the statement, you`re dragging out years old allegations, now we`re going to return volley with -
PLANK: Now, we`re getting out.
HAYES: I mean, my contention, you know, to be sort of consistent here is like, yeah, you - I don`t - I have no business in saying that the women who have accused Bill Clinton of things like sexual assault are lying or making it up. I don`t - like, I respect - I respect the possible credibility of what they`re saying, like, I don`t - you know what I mean? And -- but he`s not running for president.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right.
HAYES: And that to me is the crucial distinction here.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right. It was - it was really rich to hear the Trump surrogate on the phone.
[20:19:57] RYAN: Yeah, mentioned that like, you know, what if Bill Clinton was in the White House? Well, what if Donald Trump is in the White House?
PLANK: Right. Yes.
HAYES: Right. Yes. Right. Yes.
RYAN: You know, he`s - that`s the - that`s - you can`t -
HAYES: That`s exactly where we the - what people are -
PLANK: And on the tape, he says when you`re a star, you can do whatever you want. If he`s president, what do you think he can do?
HAYES: That`s right. If he thought a reality television star role allowed him to do that, what would being president allow him to do? Liz Plank, Erin Gloria Ryan, thank you so much.
Coming up, we`ll talk about that BuzzFeed story which I keep mentioning about allegations of Donald Trump`s behavior at the Miss Teen USA after this break.
TRUMP: Again, thank you very much. God bless you.
HAYES: Big news breaking this hour, The New York Times talking to two women who say Donald Trump touched them inappropriately. The0 Palm Beach Post interviewing another woman, who says Trump groped her at Mar-a-Lago. Trump campaign strongly denying both reports, but the news is breaking a bit. New reports of more inappropriate behavior by Donald Trump, this time at beauty pageants. Here`s Trump engaging in some locker room talk as some would call it with Howard stern in April 2005, about one of the perks of owning The Miss USA Pageant.
TRUMP: I`ll go backstage before a show and everyone`s getting dressed and ready and everything else. And, you know, no men are anywhere, and I`m allowed to go in because I`m the owner of the pageant and therefore I`m inspecting it. You know, I`m inspecting. I want to make sure everything is good.
TRUMP: Yeah, the dress. Is everyone OK? You know, they`re standing there with no clothes. "Is everybody OK?" and you see these incredible looking women, and so I sort of get away with things like that.
HAYES: Get away with things like that. Now, two former pageant contestants are reportly confirming precisely those assertions. A former Miss Arizona says Trump would walk into dressing rooms unannounced and violate contestants` privacy.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Our first introduction to him was when we were at the dress rehearsal and half naked changing into our bikinis, to have the owner come waltzing in when we`re naked, or half naked in a very physically vulnerable position, and then to have the pressure of the, you know, the people that work for him telling us to fawn on all - fawn all over him, go walk up to him, talk to him.
HAYES: Another contestant in the 2001 Miss USA Pageant told the Guardian that Trump deliberately walked in on her and another women while they were naked, quote, "Mr. Trump just barged right in, didn`t say anything, stood there and stared at us, she recalled. Trump`s attitude, she said, seemed to be I can do this because I can, which is basically what he told Howard Stern. He didn`t walk in and say, "Oh, I`m sorry, I was looking for someone." she continued, he walked in, he stood and he stared. He was doing it because he knew that he could.
Today, BuzzFeed News is reporting that Trump`s unannounced dressing room visits extended to the Miss Teen USA franchise. Four women who competed in the 1997 Miss Teen USA Beauty Pageant said Donald Trump walked into the dressing room, while contestants some as young as 15 were changing. Three of the women spoke anonymously. One of those women, a former Miss Vermont Teen USA went on the record telling BuzzFeed, "I remember putting on my dress real quick because I was like, oh, my God, there`s a man in here. Trump, she recalls, said something like, "Don`t worry, ladies, I`ve seen it all before."
Trump owned the Miss Universe, Miss USA and Miss Teen USA Pageants from 1996 until last year. We should know that the majority of 1997 Miss Teen US participants cannot be reached by BuzzFeed without (INAUDIBLE) report. Nearly a dozen of contestants from that year reached by BuzzFeed said they did not recall seeing Trump in the dressing room. According to BuzzFeed, most were dubious or dismissed the possibility out of hand. Trump campaign issuing a statement or a report NBC News which reads in part, "These accusations have no merit, have already been disproven by many other individuals who were present. When you see questionable attacks like this magically put out there in the final month of a presidential campaign. You have to ask yourself what the political motivations really are, why the media is pushing it. The reporting comes on the heels of the released of the now infamous "Access Hollywood" tape, which Trump and his supporters have dismissed as just locker-room talk and empty boasting. And Trump`s debate spectacle in which he invited women who have accused Bill Clinton of sexual misconduct to sit in the audience, confronting Hillary Clinton about those accusations in front of the American public.
[20:25:05] HAYES: Today, the republican nominee out in the campaign trail in Lakeland, Florida, used the critiques about his (INAUDIBLE) performance as a way of - a handy way to lob another degrading line of attack at his opponent.
TRUMP: I`m standing at my podium by my chair, she walks across the room, she`s standing in front of me, right next to me, and the next day I said, "What did the papers say?" They said, "He invaded her space." I invaded her space. Believe me, the last space that I want to invade is her space. Believe me, I don`t want to invade her space.
HAYES: Joining me now, Tara Dowdell, Democratic Political Strategist, former Apprentice contestant. Rick Wilson, Republican political strategist, currently senior advisor to Edwin McMullen for President campaign, which is doing pretty well in Utah.
Rick, you have been saying and tweeting for months, more is coming, more is coming out, more is coming out. Was that a hunch? Was that a certainty? Was that the gossip in the world of republican political OPO?
RICK WILSON, REPUBLICAN POLITICAL STRATEGIST: Well, look, there`s a ton of OPO on Trump that`s been out there. There are a lot of us have had access to for a while. Some of it touched on this. Frankly, most of the stuff that we`ve seen previously had to do with Trump`s, you know, rather skeezy business connections. But if you did even a little bit on this guy, you strike, you know, stories about "Bad Touch Donny" here. And then these are the things that are rolling out now. And, you know, this is a guy who`s active from a position for a long time. He`s losing this fantasy bubble and he`s empowered himself to do things that frankly most Americans would find creepy, wouldn`t want to have happening to their daughters or their wives or their girlfriends if this guys was around.
Then again, maybe some of them do. Maybe some of these Trump worshippers would gladly cut themselves for the Donald, but most actual American men wouldn`t, and they`d find it offensive.
And this is sort thing that`s rolling out now. I think it`s why he`s having some real problems now.
HAYES: You obviously worked with him on the Apprentice set. And my sense is that you`ve never had any experiences like this personally, and we should say that, because you know, I want to give a full sort of panoply of personal experience.
Does this surprise you?
TARA DOWDELL, DEMOCRATIC POLITICAL STRATEGIST: It does not surprise me. It does not surprise me at all. And the problem for Donald Trump with his denial of this and his campaign`s denial of these allegations is that he is on record saying that he did every single one of these things.
WILSON: That`s right.
DOWDELL: He is his own corroborating witness. I mean, he can be a witness against himself if there was ever a trial because he himself has accused himself of these things. So, it is ridiculous for him to deny it, because why would he say he did it if he didn`t do it. And what he said he did lines up almost exactly with what every single woman says.
And here`s the thing, when this many people of this many different backgrounds are accusing you of the same thing, they can`t all be wrong.
HAYES: You know, there`s also -- I thought about a few analogs here, and one was Arnold Schwarzenegger, Rick, and I`m sure you remember this. This was about a week before that recall election -- not the recall election, the actual election in California. He was up in the polls. And pretty similar profile pattern behavior. L.A. Times had found a bunch of women who had said he had groped, sexual assaulted, inappropriately touched them. Also in a sort of similar situation, he`s a star, he can do what he wants.
And he very famously basically didn`t deny it, right. I mean, rather than sort of double down, he basically said, yeah, I have done a lot of stuff on movie sets and where there`s smoke there`s fire. And he apologized. And that essentially worked for him.
Donald Trump got up in front of 66 million people and said absolutely not.
WILSON: And it`s funny, because is a guy who has been -- who has said this over and over again. He`s made the case over and over again. He`s said he`s done these things. They`re on tape. You can`t just go back because you`re in the Trump realty distortion field that things he said didn`t happen.
He told Howard Stern these things, he said these things on the Billy Bush tape. He said these things over and over again about the sort of behavior he exhibits with women. And these things -- you know, you can`t just redact them now and say that`s not what he really meant, that`s just a character he`s playing on TV. I`m sorry, it doesn`t work that way, especially when there`s evidence that`s eyewitness evidence and direct evidence on the record from these folks.
And look this is a guy who would get shredded if this went to discovery. I would be surprised if he comes through with any of these bluff about suing the times or suing these women in any way whatsoever, because he get him in court, and this guy will either perjur (ph) or collapse like a house of cards.
HAYES: So, we have seen a situation in which the political fallout of that tape was swift and severe. You know, bottom dropping out, a little bit post-debate performance coming back from the total depths.
He can`t win the election with the margins he has with women right now. I mean, that`s -- you could attack the demographics in any different way you want. That, to me, strikes me as the biggest one.
DOWDELL: Yes. I mean, mathematically, with women voters, he is in a deficit that is just not possible. There`s no path to victory for him.
HAYES: Unless he would radically shrink it in the next four weeks.
DOWDELL: And it`s not possible, because this -- things are still going to come out. Because what`s happening is, part of why he`s saying, well, why are these women coming out now? Noone ever wants to be the first person to come out, because people don`t want to be maligned, people don`t want the reprisal that comes with going after Trump, which Rick and I have experienced directly firsthand, and many others. The reprisal is swift, it`s vicious, it`s brutal.
And so people don`t want that. But I think what`s happening is as more people come out, it gives more women comfort to coming out, because there are costs to coming out. People act as if you speak out against Trump, that somehow it`s giving you all this great publicity. There -- it is not -- if you`re a working person coming out against Trump, it`s a thing that you do that causes harm to you.
HAYES: Right. Plus, you also have to relive the situation. And that -- and the sort of waving the red flag in front of the bull. You know, I`m reminded again -- again a very different set of allegations against Gary Hart, famously presidential candidate, who was not accused of anything non- consensual, was accused of marital infidelity in the context of a consensual relationship, but he famously basically dared the press, sort of dared the press to follow him around, quote unquote, "and Donald Trump standing on that debate stage, saying, no, I mean, you could just see assignment editors across the country saying, OK.
WILSON: Right. And we have a million Tom Fiedlers (ph), who was the guy that followed and caught Gary Hart back in the `80s, all looking at this and saying, wait a minute, this is a guy who said all these things on tape for years and years, this has been his known MO, and now he wants to deny it them when he`s on the debate stage.
And so they`re going to go after him. They`re going to dig this stuff up. These people a lot of people are going to come forward. And frankly a lot of them are going to come forward who have been silent for years. They`ve been threatened or they have been intimidated. For they`ve had Michael Cohen force an NDA down their throats on behalf of Donald Trump, in whatever circumstances they find themselves after interacting with Trump.
And these are people that have reached a breaking point partly because Donald Trump has broken our political system so badly. And he`s got, you know, the entire Republican caucus flipping back and forth between endorsing and unendorsing him. We`ll see what they do tomorrow morning.
HAYES: Senator Fisher of Nebraska and John Thune have both pulled the very rare endorse, unendorse, reendorse carousel right. Although, after today`s revelations, maybe the wheel just keeps spinning and we end up back at unendorse.
Tara Dowdell, Rick Wilson, thanks for joining me tonight. Appreciate it.
Coming up, Donald Trump backed into a political corner comes out swinging once again. Day two of Trump against the world.
HAYES: The Donald Trump campaign is in triage tonight following new allegations the Republican nominee groped several women. The campaign denying these allegations reporting in the New York Times and the Palm Beach Post. According to a report in Bloomberg, the Trump campaign is preparing a counter attack against Bill Clinton.
Now, Donald Trump, as biographer Wayne Barrett once put it, will be a very dangerous man for the next three or four weeks. Down badly in the polls, his reputation in tatters, his self-image as a winner facing the existential threat that comes with the increasingly likely possibility he will soon be known as one of the biggest losers of all time on the grandest stage imaginable.
Trump takes no personal responsibility for his situation and said. He`s been telling his supporters he`s only losing because he has been stabbed in the back, the victim of a massive conspiracy among people and institutions that he is now seeking to discredit, delegitimize and destroy no matter the consequences.
Today, Trump lashed out at the Republican Party leader who now refuses to defend him, though still endorses him. House Speaker Paul Ryan suggesting Ryan and other Republicans have sinister motives for not rallying around Trump after the second political debate.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: You would think that they would say great going Don, let`s go. Let`s beat this crook. She`s a crook. Let`s beat her. We have got to stop it.
No, he doesn`t do that. There`s a whole deal going on there -- I mean, you know, there`s a whole deal going on. We`re going to figure it out. I always figure things out. But there`s a whole sinister deal going on.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: A whole sinister deal.
It`s just not just Paul Ryan that Trump suggests is out to help Hillary Clinton, it`s the pollsters, he casts as corrupt. The people running the electoral system he calls rigged, the media outlets he demonizes over and over, and even the people at the highest levels of our government who he suggests are involved in collusion on a massive scale, to keep Clinton from going to jail and keep Trump out of the White House.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: This corruption and collusion is just one more reason why I will ask my attorney general to appoint a special prosecutor. But we have to also, remember this, remember this, this is maybe in a sense even more important, we have to investigate the investigation.
But what do you do when you hand them over to the FBI and the Justice Department and that`s the end of it? We have never been in a position like this. I`m so embarrassed by what`s taken place and I`m very, very disappointed in congress because our people, our politicians, I don`t know, do they make a deal where everybody protects each other in Washington? Maybe that`s it. I really believe it. I really believe it.
She deleted the emails. She has to go to jail.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: Donald Trump`s lashing out, his willingness to demonize our most important institutions in a desperate attempt to help himself has consequences. Yesterday we showed you a Trump supporter telling Mike Pence she wants a revolution if Clinton is elected.
Last night at a Trump rally in Florida, NBC News asked a Trump supporter who`s holding a sign accusing Bill Clinton of being a rapist, what happens if Trump loses.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TAMMY WILSON, TRUMP SUPPORTER: I think people are going to rise up, because we`re tired of taking it. We`re tired of being deplorables. We want to be thought of as Americans instead of just her steppingstone. So yes, people will probably rise up.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What does that mean? What do you mean by rise up?
T. WILSON: We will defend ourselves and we will make sure that the laws that need to be instated in this country are instated instated of just forgotten about. Take it as it is, you`re in the south. We`re all Second Amendment pros. We want our country back, like he just said, and she`s not going to give it to us.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: Joining me now, former Nixon White House counsel John Dean, author of "The Nixon Defense: What He Knew and When He Knew It." And a man who is experienced some of the most sort of high stress, high stakes tests of American institutions of democracy.
Given that experience, what`s going through your head as you`re watching Trump increasingly make this case to lay the groundwork for a story should he lose of how that loss is illegitimate?
JOHN DEAN, FMR. NIXON WHITE HOUSE COUNSEL: Well, I see a lot of similarities between Nixon and Trump. They`re both authoritarian personalities. The thing is that Trump is actually at the extreme end of that. He`s taken it much further than Nixon. In fact, he makes Nixon something of a choir boy. I don`t know of Nixon ever being a sexual predator in his time.
But what I see going on is typical of an authoritarian-type personality. They can do no wrong. Everybody around them is at fault excepting themselves. And they will break the system if they have to do win at all costs. That`s what Nixon, of course, did trying to win the election. He succeeded. Then he got caught and he tried to use the system in any way he could to protect himself, but it didnt` work, and when the final -- really the final lie got told and was put to him, he actually went willingly. He said, you know, it`s up. And he walked away from it, which might have been one of his grander moments, because he had the army on his side.
HAYES: That`s right. This is the key to me, because you know if look at how democratic institutions function, they function essentially on norms of conduct. And ultimately when he was confronted by Barry Goldwater among others and sort of famously after the midnight massacre and they said you`ve got to go, he didn`t order the Justice Department to arrest them, or the military to go into a state of emergency which is what could have happened and happens in places around the world all the time.
This question of what Trump does should he lose without the power of the presidency, in terms of eating at that institutional legitimacy.
DEAN: Well, Chris, what he really is, he`s sort of the product of what`s been going on in the GOP for a number of years. I`ve written about it at some length, because I find it surprising and somewhat distressing is they`re gaming the system. Democracy is fragile. And it does base itself on people performing in a normal, consistent way and not trying to defeat the system by misbehaving.
So, the fact that he`s trying to push it this far and try to actually -- I think he`s trying to win the election by offending as many voters -- Democratic voters as he can so they`ll be so exhausted they won`t want to show up at the polls. And then his supporters will come out, because they will stay him until the end.
But I think we`re seeing really a very unpleasant bit of behavior here. I find it very disquieting. It`s the first election in my adult life. And I`ve seen a lot of them now, that I really felt uneasy. I knew Senator Goldwater. He was a personal friend. I wasn`t worried about him is `64 of doing something like starting a nuclear war, that just wasn`t him. In fact as he said to many people, he said I wouldn`t vote for myself given the portrait of who I would be portrayed as in the media.
That isn`t the case here with Trump, he is revealing himself and not being falsely portrayed by the media.
HAYES: Do you think there`s a way -- so, one of the key points I think about Nixon and Watergate was at the end of that there was a kind of national consensus, that there really was, that the crimes had been committed, the president stepping down was necessary and the right thing to do, that this was -- you know, the question is can Trump supporters, his core, tens of millions of Americans, do we have the media institutions or any other institutions to convince them that the rejection of him was right thing for the country.
DEAN: I think only if the vote is overwhelming enough. If it`s at all close, they`ll say it was rigged and they`ll fight it.
If it is pretty overwhelming, they`ll have trouble doing that. If the polls particularly going in the election show that he`s losing, that will temper them and somewhat give them some anticipation of what`s going to happen.
HAYES: That`s an interesting point. You think the margins matter a lot in terms of the legitimacy of what happens on election day?
DEAN: I think this group is going to say it was a fix if it wasn`t something that was pretty overwhelming, yes.
HAYES: All right, John Dean, thanks for being with me. Really appreciate it, sir.
DEAN: Thank you.
HAYES: After the break, the hacking of an American election, the Clinton campaign now linking the hacking to the Trump campaign. That`s next.
HAYES: From now until election day, it`s a safe bet that every day will bring a new batch of emails from the Clinton campaign and its allies -- the result, it appears, of massive hacks into the national democratic committee, the private email account of Clinton campaign chair John Podesta, still technically unconfirmed. And who knows who else.
There is no definitive account of who`s responsible. The U.S. government publicly points to Russia, as do many third party analysts who have been through the data. But we, of course, have no way to verify independently whether that`s true. After emphatically denying having played a role, today Russian President Vladimir Putin left the door somewhat more open telling attendees at a forum in Moscow, everyone is saying who did it, but does it matter so much? It`s what`s inside the information that matters.
Now, the Clinton campaign is linking the latest attack to the campaign of Donald Trump. John Podesta alleges that Trump ally Roger Stone has been in touch with Julian Assange, the founder of WikiLeaks, which has published most of the hacked emails pointing to a tweet Stone sent in August, "trust me, it will soon be Podesta`s time in the barrel #crookedhillary."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN PODESTA, CHAIRMAN, CLINTON CAMPAIGN: I think it`s a reasonable assumption to -- or at least a reasonable conclusion that Mr. Stone had advanced warning in the Trump campaign and advanced warning about what Assange was going to do?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: In an interview today with NBC News, Stone denied the allegation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROGER STONE, REPUBLICAN OPERATIVE: That`s categorically false. I have a back channel communications with WikiLeaks, but they certainly don`t clear or tell me in advance what they`re going to do.
But this is -- it`s the contents of the email that are important. To say that they have been hacked by Russian interests would not be correct either.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: About those contents, the mass disclosures have violated the privacy not just of people working for the campaign of the DNC, but of anyone who is in contact with them, even anyone who happens to be mentioned in an email.
For example, a Clinton Foundation staffer who had contemplated suicide as described in an email thread among some of Clinton`s top aides. She wasn`t even part of the exchange, and now that painful personal experience is public on the internet right now for all to see.
This is not the first, nor will it be the last large scale hack carried out to achieve a specific agenda. Why would it be when it works so well? The question now how we as a society navigate this new normal.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: WikiLeaks. I love WikiLeaks. And I said write a couple of them down.
Let`s see, during the speech, Crooked Hillary Clinton -- oh, she`s crooked, folks, she`s crooked as a $3 bill.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: Joining me now, Glenn Greenwald, co-founding editor and columnist for The Intercept, who of course who has written a lot about this, Glenn.
I wanted to talk to you. You and I were having a sort of exchange about all this online today. And I want to start with this. I mean, you`ve got Putin today saying it doesn`t matter where it comes from, it matters what`s in it. And Roger Stone. And I see a lot of people say this.
And it just seems to me that that can`t possibly be true, that it`s both newsworthy, whatever is in there, because you know there`s newsworthy content there, but also if someone is undergoing sort of systematic espionage, exposing the privacy of all these people it really does matter who it is and why they`re doing it.
GLENN GREENWALD, THE INTERCEPT: Yes, so as you say I think both are true.
You know, The New York Times David Barstow, who broke the story of Trump`s tax return was asked in an interview last week, look, you don`t know who sent you this tax return. You don`t know if they broke the law when they stole it and sent it do you, why would you publish without knowing their motives? And he said, as a journalist, I don`t care who the source was or what their motives were or if they broke the law, my only interest is is this in the public interest, and if so I publish it.
So, as a journalist all you care about is reporting the material independent of the source, but it`s also obviously an important story to find out who is the person who`s hacking all these emails. That is a separate story.
HAYES: Right. I mean, in the case of Barstow, right, I mean, it`s -- you`ve got The New York Times. So there`s three pages of one tax return from 1996, if it was -- here`s a bunch of back and forth with Ivanka about people she doesn`t like, I mean, that`s what we have right now. And we have news cycles that are being driven, pretty clearly with the intent of doing this, whoever did it. I mean, I don`t know if it`s the Russians or not, but whoever did it, really did want to have the affect they`re having.
GREENWALD: Right, but Chris, I mean, this is a pretty common problem in journalism. I mean, when Daniel Elsburg leaked the Pentagon Papers, he didn`t just take a few sheets, he took thousands and thousands and thousands of pages and gave it to The New York Times and they picked the parts that they thought ought to be published. Same with us and the Snowden archive. We curated it. We went through it carefully.
I think that`s common. You know, sources give information. But still, the Pentagon Papers were taken without authorization. They were sort of stolen and no one would say the New York Times shouldn`t publish them.
HAYES: But the issue we have here -- I mean, this seems to me more in this category, right. So, there`s Snoweden revelations, there`s the sort of whistleblower category, right, Elsberg, Snowden, Chelsea Manning, right, conscience, right. Then there`s a category of the Sony hack, right, pretty clearly someone wanted to hack Sony to punish them for releasing a film about North Korea and massively embarrassed them, successfully got them to rescind the film.
You`ve got the climategate hack, in which random climate scientists are hacked to discredit their work. And now this. And it seems like the press has a different role to play, because it feels like there`s an alley-oop being set up in which the press puts the ball through the hoop to achieve the aim of an actor who is up to something that is nefarious.
GREENWALD: Right. I mean, I think the reason why this is a hard thing to think about is because there are two really profoundly important values. On the one hand, the need to impose transparency on powerful actors, which certainly includes people like John Podesta and Hillary Clinton, and arguably even people like high level Sony officials, and on the other hand the need the protect individual privacy. And the more transparency you have, the less privacy you have. And I think important tradeoff as journalists that you always have to assess is, is this person powerful enough to justify the invasion of privacy from publishing and is the material enough in the public interest.
And every journalist, if they`re careful, is going to grapple with those questions. And it`s hard.
HAYES: Wait. But then let me ask you this question, because I think this is an important one, does John Podesta have a right to privacy?
GREENWALD: I think he has a lesser right to privacy than the average person on the street, by virtue of the fact -- he`s one of the most powerful people on the planet, Chris. If Hillary Clinton wins, as is very likely, he is going to be in seat of power in the White House in less than three months. So what he does and how he, you know, shapes public opinion and what he`s plotting in terms of policy and what they`re telling the public and not telling the public, these are critically important things.
Of course everybody would say that the more powerful you are, the less privacy you have. It doesn`t mean he has no privacy. Some of that stuff should not have been published. And that`s the problem with WikiLeaks is they don`t curate. They just dump everything.
But of course the more powerful you are, the more transparency you deserve.
HAYES: If -- can you imagine. I mean, I guess the question becomes, right, as -- if this accelerates, right. If you`ve got this sort of like - - this is now a playbook. And to me the Sony hack was really a turnining point, right for all the reasons you say, right. Like Sony executives are powerful. But it was clearly done with this goal that actually ended up working. Like, can you -- is there an analogy with the way the media has dealt with ISIS propaganda. And this is what I`ve been thinking about.
So, for awhile, any time ISIS released a video it was like, look, this is news. They`ve murdered this person in this horrible way. And at a certain point it was like, we`re not going to be complicit in this essentially awful act that they want us to publish these things, even though frankly there`s an argument that an ISIS snuff film is newsworthy.
GREENWALD: But again, it`s a balancing process. So, to see someone from ISIS slit somebody`s throat or cut their head off for the 15th time has very little news value, even if it has some.
HAYES: It does have some have some, though.
GREENWALD: Whereas the damage in the viewing, which is incentivizing-- it has some, it has a little bit. So, it`s a balancing process, whereas the way in which John Podesta and Hillary Clinton are planning to disseminate a public message and then secretly tell people other things, that has huge value. And so it`s always this process of tradeoffs.
HAYES: Right. All right. Glenn Greenwald, it`s great to talk to you about this. I think we are not going to end up in a situation -- we are going to be navigating this for a long time to come, because we`ve now got a situation -- we`ve seen it in Turkey. We`ve seen it in other countries, in which this is now a playbook. And it`s been a playbook in other places, it`s not going to be I think increasingly a playbook in which the sort of weaponized hack lands on people`s doors and sort of civil society has to figure out what they do with it.
GREENWALD: Yeah, it`s all the more reason to make sure that you use as much protection as possible over your emails and other online matters.
HAYES: All right. Glenn Greenwald, thanks for your time tonight. Appreciate it.
That is ALL IN for this evening. "THE RACHEL MADDOW SHOW" starts right now. Good evening, Rachel.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED. END