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All In with Chris Hayes, Transcript 9/12/2016

Guests: Jennifer Granholm, Joe Conason, A.J. Delgado, Ta-Nehisi Coates, Charlie Pierce

Show: ALL IN with CHRIS HAYES Date: September 12, 2016 Guest: Jennifer Granholm, Joe Conason, A.J. Delgado, Ta-Nehisi Coates, Charlie Pierce

CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST (voice-over): Tonight on ALL IN...

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: They say pneumonia on Friday, but she was coughing very, very badly a week ago, and even before that.

(END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES (voice-over): As Hillary Clinton stays home to recover --

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BILL CLINTON, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: She`s doing fine. She was even better last night before she went to sleep.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES (voice-over): Why a sick day has the right wing rejoicing.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALEX JONES, RADIO HOST, THE ALEX JONES SHOW: I went and saw the video and I went, yes! Yes!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES (voice-over): Tonight, what we know about Hillary Clinton`s health. Then, Trump demands an apology for this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CLINTON: You could put half of Trump supporters into what I call the basket of deplorables.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES (voice-over): Ta-Nehisi Coates says Clinton is right and her numbers are too low. He joins me to defend that analysis of Trump support.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Donald Trump!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 2016! With them back in the (bleep) (INAUDIBLE).

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes!

(END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES (voice-over): Plus, the normalizing.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: The interest rates have kept it down by President Obama, I have no doubt.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES (voice-over): Three head-snapping comments today that barely made headlines. We`ll update Trump`s Last Ten. And a foreign policy fact check --

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Until the war`s over, anything`s legal.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES (voice-over): -- on the anything goes campaign.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: To the victor belong the spoils.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES (voice-over): When ALL IN starts right now.

HAYES: Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes. Hillary Clinton says she is on the mend, tweeting this afternoon, "Thanks to everyone who`s reached out with well wishes. I`m feeling fine and getting better." And adding, "Like anyone who`s ever been home sick from work, I`m just anxious to get back out there. See you on the trail soon." Clinton is at her home in Chappaqua, New York, tonight having canceled a planned trip to California to recover from pneumonia. Yesterday morning, Clinton abruptly left the September 11th memorial service in New York City and appeared unsteady and in need of support as she entered her vehicle. Clinton seen here, waiving to supporters later that same day just a few hours later, will appear via teleconference at fundraiser tonight. Former President Bill Clinton will headline events over the next couple of days in her place. Her campaign says Clinton will soon release additional detailed information about her health. In an interview that aired just a short time ago, Bill Clinton explained the incident by saying Hillary Clinton, quote, just got dehydrated.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is that what happened, she got dehydrated?

CLINTON: Yes, yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because when you look at that collapse, that video that was taken, you wonder if it`s not more serious --

CLINTON: No, no, she --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- than dehydration.

CLINTON: She`s been -- well, if it is, it`s a mystery to me and all of her doctors. Rarely, but on more than one occasion over the last many, many years, things sort of -- things happen to her when she just got severely dehydrated. And she`s worked like a demon, as you know, as Secretary of State and as a senator and in the year since.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is it possible that she will be away for weeks from the campaign trail?

CLINTON: No. Not a shot. I`ll be lucky to hold her back another day.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: Donald trump, who for much of the campaign has flirted with conspiracy theories about Clinton`s health stoking big questions about her, quote, stamina, said today he hopes she recovers, but also hinted the Clintons` health issues are larger than just pneumonia.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Well, it was interesting because they say pneumonia on Friday, but she was coughing very, very badly a week ago, and even before that, if you remember. This wasn`t the first time. So it`s very interesting to see what is going on.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: A presidential nominee appearing to almost collapse at a public event is news in any environment. We should remember that politicians who are, in fact, human beings do sometimes get sick. Senator Charles Schumer`s office today said Schumer had been diagnosed with pneumonia a few weeks ago. And there`s the Presidents Jimmy Carter collapsing in 1979 while running a road race from heat exhaustion -- spurring fears of a heart attack -- George H.W. Bush of course famously vomiting on Japanese prime minister and then fainting during a visit to Tokyo in 1992. That was scary. George W. Bush off-camera briefly losing consciousness in 2002 after choking on a pretzel while watching a football game. The difference in this case is that it comes amid a sustained effort amongst some to raise questions about Clinton`s health in an attempt to disqualify her from office.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s falling. You`ve got this sort of twitching thing that she does in front of reporters that was really bad.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Go online and put down Hillary Clinton illness, and take a look at the videos for yourself.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s either had a small stroke or she has had some other disorder. Those strange glasses she was wearing for a while, kind of a tipoff. She seems to have no stamina whatsoever.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JONES: The point is Hillary looks like a dying woman.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: That last voice is Sandy Hook and September 11th truther, Alex Jones, thinks both of them were faked, inside jobs. One of the leading purveyors of Clinton health conspiracy theories who exalted in yesterday`s news --

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JONES: I went and saw the video and I went, yes! Yes! I was just literally just in ecstasy. And my dad said that is horrible, celebrating over that sick woman, even though I hate her, too. And I went, no, this is a devastating victory against the enemy and more of the avalanche of them being discredited and the hand of God is upon this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: Generally, the biggest question when it comes to attacks on Clinton`s health is which angle her critics are going to take. And remember in 2012 after she suffered a concussion, lots of conservatives oscillated between claiming the concussion was fabricated so Clinton could avoid testifying about Benghazi, and suggesting it had -- despite her doctor`s claim -- actually caused her serious neurological damage. Today Veterans for Trump co-chair Daniel Tamburello claimed Clinton secretly has Parkinson`s disease citing her pneumonia as evidence as well as, quote, her recent fondness for muumuus, which makes me think she is concealing a deep brain stem battery pack that counters her tremors. Compounding the potential damage from Sunday`s incident was the Clinton campaign, which did not reveal the pneumonia diagnosis when it was made by her doctor on Friday. Perhaps understandable in light of all the attacks on her health from the right. Less understandable the failure to make that diagnosis public for about seven hours after Clinton`s incident on Sunday, a move that allowed her critics darkest claims to fester for much of the day. Joining me now, Former RNC Chairman, MSNBC political analyst Michael Steele, Former Governor of Michigan Jennifer Granholm, co-chair of Clinton`s transition team.

HAYES: Michael, let me start with you.

MICHAEL STEELE, POLITICAL ANALYST, MSNBC: Sure.

HAYES: So here`s the thing I`ve never quite gotten about -- so I think you would agree with me, right, that there was this context beforehand of all these, like, oh, she has neurological --

STEELE: Yes.

HAYES: -- or, you know, all this sort of -- then the thing happened yesterday, which was --

STEELE: Yes.

HAYES: -- scary, if you look at the video.

STEELE: Yes. No, it is.

HAYES: I never quite understand the first-order argument. Like, should people not vote for Hillary Clinton because she has pneumonia?

STEELE: No, I don`t think --

HAYES: Is that the argument? Because it`s like I`m not --

STEELE: No. I think we can come up with a better argument than that.

HAYES: Right, exactly. I would like someone to just actually spell out what the argument is.

STEELE: No, no. No, you know what, I tell you what, I appreciate your setup very much. And let me just say I hope that Mrs. Clinton is getting better and is getting well because that was very startling to watch.

HAYES: Yes. Totally. Agreed.

STEELE: Just from a human perspective.

HAYES: I think we all agree. We all agree.

STEELE: We all agree on that, yes. But here`s the problem -- and you said it at the end of your piece -- seven hours.

HAYES: Right.

STEELE: All right. The week before this cough -- it`s a persistent cough -- now they knew in the campaign that there`s been pneumonia going around. She wasn`t the only one to come down with this cold. So why not put that out there in the beginning? Why not deal with that?

HAYES: Right.

STEELE: So that creates the atmosphere that then some will take advantage of, as you rightly said. But irrespective of what Republicans are saying about this, the biggest concern is what the voters are thinking about it. And it does not address, I think, in an adequate way, the concerns they have about trust and whether or not --

HAYES: Sure, right.

STEELE: -- you`re going to tell us --

HAYES: OK. Right.

STEELE: -- what is going on.

HAYES: So your point -- so there`s two things. What I love about this news story is that it`s a perfect little experiment that we`re running here. You know, Jennifer, people say, you know, it`s not the crime, it`s the cover up, right? You know, people always say it`s not the scandal. Well, here we`ve got a perfect example in which there is no scandal or crime. The first-order thing is someone having pneumonia -- which I think we can all agree is not some scandal. That`s a human being --

STEELE: Mm-hmm.

HAYES: -- who has pneumonia, right? So the question then becomes the handling of it, the meta question. do you think that they should have been more forthcoming in that period of five to seven hours?

JENNIFER GRANHOLM, FORMER MICH. GOVERNOR: Well, they said that they should have. The campaign itself has said that they could have handled it better. But Chris and Michael, you guys know this, you have gotten sick --

HAYES: Yes.

GRANHOLM: -- and you`ve got to go on --

STEELE: Oh, yes.

GRANHOLM: -- the air, and the show must go on. And she`s got to be at a very --

HAYES: Oh, I`m coughing on everyone in here right now.

GRANHOLM: Well, so there you go.

HAYES: Michael is totally screwed.

(LAUGHTER)

HAYES: He`s super screwed.

(LAUGHTER)

GRANHOLM: I mean, but just think about this, she`s got to go to a major press conference --

HAYES: Yes.

GRANHOLM: -- the day she`s diagnosed about homeland security. Then she`s got to go to the 9/11 memorial, which of course she feels so deeply and it`s important that she go to. Of course she`s going to try -- I mean, just because you know that she is a total workhorse. She is not --

HAYES: Right.

GRANHOLM: -- a wimp.

STEELE: Yes.

GRANHOLM: She`s going to try to get to it.

STEELE: No one`s doubting that.

HAYES: That I agree with. But my thing here --

GRANHOLM: But she`s not going to go if there`s a big diagnosis out there about her having pneumonia that everybody`s going to -- you know, she gets criticized for that, so --

HAYES: Well, let me ask you this. Let me ask you this. Let me come back to you this. So first of all, I want to just say on the table that when you go back -- I was looking at this -- Meghan McCain has been tweeting furiously about the coverage of her father`s health back in 2008. Now --

STEELE: Sure.

HAYES: -- he put out 1,500 pages of records.

STEELE: He did.

HAYES: Neither candidate in this case --

STEELE: Nothing.

HAYES: I mean, Donald Trump has that one letter --

STEELE: Right.

HAYES: -- from the doctor --

STEELE: Right. So...

HAYES: -- Hillary Clinton has a little more. But each of them can disclose more medical records, right?

STEELE: Absolutely.

HAYES: So I think that probably is a good idea. They`re each fairly advanced --

STEELE: I mean, sure. They need to.

HAYES: Yes.

STEELE: Because if either one of them becomes president --

HAYES: OK.

STEELE: -- we`ll find out anyway.

HAYES: But here`s my question, then, about transparency: What`s the cutoff for what you should disclose in terms of illness? This is a really serious question. Like, severe gastrointestinal distress.

STEELE: Yes.

HAYES: Does Hillary Clinton owe you, the voter and Michael Steele, to inform you that she`s undergoing severe gastrointestinal distress?

STEELE: She doesn`t owe me that, but pneumonia, you do.

HAYES: You think pneumonia`s over the line?

STEELE: Yes, because pneumonia can lead to a lot of other things.

HAYES: Right.

STEELE: Having gas --

HAYES: Right.

STEELE: -- not so much.

HAYES: I love where this has gone. I mean, we should also be clear here that we`re talking about walking pneumonia, right?

STEELE: Right.

HAYES: My father had it, other people have had it. They work.

STEELE: Again, walking pneumonia can become severe pneumonia to the point where you`re hospitalized, and it has an impact on the body.

HAYES: OK. But then here`s the other thing, Jennifer. Because to me it`s like -- watching this whole thing again, this sort of perfect little microcosm of the relationship --

STEELE: Right.

HAYES: -- between the press and the Clintons, here`s what`s going to happen, I can tell you right now. She`ll put out medical records, OK. They`re going to put out some medical records, and there`s going to be this whole world of the Internet that`s going to be like, these were forged. Like, next thing you know, it`s like Alex Jones --

STEELE: (INAUDIBLE).

HAYES: -- who`s like a hop, skip and a jump from Donald Trump --

STEELE: Right.

HAYES: -- let`s be clear -- is basically going to -- spinning all sorts of insanity about her.

GRANHOLM: Of course, of course. Because any time you put anything out on the right, they`re going to make a conspiracy out of it, right? I mean, you can just get (INAUDIBLE) --

STEELE: No, not anytime.

GRANHOLM: Well, OK, not anytime, but almost anytime, especially that crowd, Michael. Not --

HAYES: That crowd, yes. All right.

STEELE: All right.

HAYES: Yes. Go ahead.

GRANHOLM: -- the mainstream, but that crowd will absolutely do that.

HAYES: Right.

GRANHOLM: And so he`s going to put out some kind of -- we`ll see what he puts out, right, but he hasn`t put out anything to date.

HAYES: Right.

GRANHOLM: You know, this whole notion (INAUDIBLE) --

HAYES: He said he`s going to put something out. He just said today.

STEELE: Right.

GRANHOLM: Yes, OK, great.

HAYES: In fact, he said -- this is a great quote. I want to read this quote and make sure I get it verbatim here. He was talking about putting out his medical records, and he says he`s doing it -- he says, I`m very confident during the week I`ll be handing out a paper, very large numbers, very detailed, hopefully good statistics. You know, I feel very confident. Otherwise, I wouldn`t be telling you I did this.

(LAUGHTER)

HAYES: Which, Michael, seems to --

GERANHOLM: He knows in advance.

HAYES: -- me a little bit of a tell on the tax returns, doesn`t it?

STEELE: You`re not going to see tax returns.

GRANHOLM: Exactly.

STEELE: Don`t even think -- this says nothing --

HAYES: Wait --

STEELE: Take tax returns off the table.

HAYES: Wait. Can we reach --

GRANHOLM: Wait, wait, wait. But this is exactly right, Chris. You are totally on the money. Of course he`s not going to release his tax returns because --

HAYES: Wait.

GRANHOLM: -- he`s not going to have anything good in there to say.

HAYES: I want to have a moment of -- in a pitch battle for the presidency, a moment of beautiful, kum ba ya bipartisan consensus. Can we agree that both candidates should release much more significant medical records --

STEELE: Yes.

HAYES: -- than they have --

STEELE: Yes.

HAYES: -- and their tax returns?

STEELE: Absolutely.

GRANHOLM: Yes.

HAYES: Yes. Good. Look at that, we`re solving America`s problems.

STEELE: And for one fundamental reason, because if and when you become president of the United States --

HAYES: That`s right, you can`t keep it hidden.

STEELE: -- and it`s disclosed --

HAYES: Yes.

STEELE: -- and there`s a bomb in there, do you really want the first --

HAYES: Right, that`s right. For anyone. That`s right. On the taxes, too.

STEELE: Yes, those are (INAUDIBLE) --

(CROSSTALK)

HAYES: -- (INAUDIBLE) the guy smiling on April 15th.

(CROSSTALK)

STEELE: -- (INAUDIBLE) health side or --

HAYES: Totally.

STEELE: -- tax returns.

HAYES: Absolutely.

GRANHOLM: Absolutely.

HAYES: Michael Steele, Jennifer Granholm, thanks for being here.

GRANHOLM: All right.

HAYES: Appreciate it. Joining me now, journalist Joe Conason who has long tracked the attacks on the Clintons whose new book is Man of the World: The Further Endeavors of Bill Clinton. This was the most perfect microcosm of the Clintons` relationship to the press --

JOE CONASON, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, THE NATIONAL MEMO: It is.

HAYES: -- which is -- you know, it all starts with these conspiracy theories which are essentially baseless, right, the neurological disorder? That then creates the conditions for heightened levels of privacy and acting like you have something to hide. And then this disclosure that they knew that she had pneumonia even while you`ve got Clinton defenders spending all day being like, well, it`s totally normal to faint in an 80- degree day.

CONASON: You know, I mean, yes, I guess there`s a stumble by her press team. But, Chris, you know, the repeated mantra that they have an aversion to transparency, as somebody in the Washington Post wrote the other day, or they`re not transparent, how that discussion can occur in the context of Donald Trump`s refusal to release his tax returns -- how many years do you think the Clintons have released in tax returns? More than 30.

HAYES: Twenty, 30, yes. Right.

CONASON: Yes, more than 30. It goes back to when he was attorney general of Arkansas. They released them every year, OK, whether they were both in office or not. Moreover, the same thing was true of the Foundation. They released every name of --

HAYES: Right.

CONSASON: -- anybody who gave to the Foundation, right?

HAYES: Searchable donations online, which is part of the reason (INAUDIBLE) --

CONASON: And they continued to do that after their agreement with Obama expired, when she left office, they continued to do it ever since. So --

HAYES: Of course. This is --

CONASON: -- if somebody says, you know, well, they`re not transparent, I`m sorry, they`re more transparent than most people.

HAYES: But isn`t that also the nature of the sort of unique role that they have in American life?

CONASON: Well --

HAYES: I mean, it seems to me that -- I agree with you. I think people know more about Hillary Clinton than they know about just about any American, frankly.

CONASON: Right, you know --

HAYES: I mean, I honestly believe that.

CONASON: -- a little too much, right?

HAYES: They know more --

CONASON: A little TMI.

HAYES: Yes. They know more about Hillary Clinton than just about any American citizen. I think that`s not a ridiculous thing to say.

CONASON: The media has come to believe, Chris, that they have the right to know everything about the Clintons. And the reason they believe that is because they learned everything when Ken Starr was probing their personal lives. In other words, that sort of opened up like a Pandora`s box of information about them. And since then -- and going back to the whole Whitewater phony scandal, there`s been this notion among the press that we need to know everything about them all the time. And if they don`t tell us everything we want to know, they`re not transparent, no matter how they are compared to everybody else who`s in politics.

HAYES: Right. But to me it`s also that there is a -- Matt Yglesias wrote this well. There`s a presumption of guilt as opposed to a presumption of innocence.

CONASON: In fact, that`s correct.

HAYES: There is an affirmative belief --

CONASON: Yes.

HAYES: -- that they`re hiding something. But then in this case it`s like, you saw how the story develops. It`s like, she`s ditched her protective press, she`s gone away, the video comes out, and there`s this affirmative sense, like, we`re not getting the story. And it`s like, they weren`t getting the story.

CONASON: Correct.

HAYES: So that does not help the attitude --

CONASON: I completely -- that`s why --

HAYES: -- of people thinking --

CONASON: I think that`s why her press team had to admit --

HAYES: Right.

CONASON: -- that they made a mistake.

HAYES: Apparently, Hillary Clinton just actually phoned in to talk about this just a few moments ago. I think we have that tape. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, I just didn`t think it was going to be that big a deal. You know, I know Chuck said today he didn`t tell anybody. It`s just the kind of thing that if it happens to you and you`re a busy, active person, you keep moving forward. And, you know, I think it`s fair to say, Anderson, that people know more about me than almost anyone in public life. They`ve got 40 years of my tax returns, tens of thousands of emails, a detailed medical letter report, all kinds of personal details.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: That seems like a simpler thing --

CONASON: Yes.

HAYES: -- to what you just said.

CONASON: Well, she`s right, I mean, about that. Certainly they have laid before the public for years as a matter of course their taxes, the Foundation records, everybody who ever did a Clinton Global Initiative commitment, all of this stuff, in addition to the stuff that`s been, you know, exposed against their will in various investigations --

HAYES: Right, sure. (INAUDIBLE) and lawsuits, and --

CONASON: (INAUDIBLE) and all the rest of it.

HAYES: Yes.

CONASON: Emails and --

HAYES: I`ve read more Hillary Clinton emails than I -- hmm.

CONASON: Hillary Clinton, right. But why have you read those emails?

HAYES: Right. Of course.

CONASON: You read those emails because unlike Colin Powell --

HAYES: Right.

CONASON: -- who we now know did the same thing, right, and that was in my book --

HAYES: Right.

CONASON: -- and that`s how it came out. She gave out --

HAYES: Right.

CONASON: -- she released 30,000 emails, right?

HAYES: Yes.

CONASON: So the rest of them are -- so Colin Powell released zero.

HAYES: Well, what I will say is however we got there I think it is true that this individual is one individual about whom more is known than almost anyone else. Joe Conason, thanks for your time tonight.

CONASON: Thank you.

HAYES: Still to come, Hillary Clinton faces pundit backlash after calling half of Donald Trump supporters, quote, a basketful of deplorables. Ta- Nehisi Coates says she`s right. He joins me to talk about that ahead. You do not want to miss that. But first, Mike Pence is asked if he`d describe David Duke as deplorable. His answer, after this two-minute break.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIKE PENCE, REPUBLICAN VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: -- President of Russia was a strong --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CLINTON: You know, to just be grossly generalistic, you could put half of Trump supporters into what I call the basket of deplorables.

(LAUGHTER)

CLINTON: Right? The racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamophobic, you name it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: The Trump campaign clearly thinks it hit the jackpot with Hillary Clinton`s now infamous comment about Donald Trump`s, quote, basket of deplorables, using it in a brand new attack ad, just like a conventional campaign would do.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice-over): Speaking to wealthy donors, Hillary Clinton called tens of millions of Americans deplorable. People like you, you, and you. Deplorable. You know what`s deplorable? Hillary Clinton viciously demonizing hardworking people like you.

TRUMP (voice-over): I`m Donald Trump, and I approve this message.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: Clinton on the campaign trail today. Trump framed her comments in tribal Populist terms, pitting his opponent against, quote, working Americans.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Hillary Clinton spoke with hatred and derision for the people who make this country run. She spoke with contempt for the people who thanklessly follow the rules, pay their taxes, and scratch out a living for their family. The disdain that Hillary Clinton expressed toward millions of decent Americans disqualifies her from public service. If Hillary Clinton will not retract her comments in full, I don`t see how she can credibly campaign any further.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: For its part, the Clinton campaign seems eager to fight this battle, which expands on the candidate`s speech a few weeks ago connecting the Republican nominee to white nationalists and the so-called self- anointed alt-right. In a statement released over the weekend, Clinton stood by the core of her deplorables comment. "Last night, I was grossly generalistic, that`s never a good idea. I regret saying half, that was wrong. Let`s be clear, what`s really deplorable is that Donald Trump hired a major advocate for the so-called alt-right movement to run his campaign, David Duke, another white supremacist seen as a champion of their values." And speaking of David Duke, former KKK leader, proudly tweeted a meme of the Deplorables the movie poster with the sub-title, anti-racist is a code word for anti-white. Duke himself is there as part of Trump`s supporting cast. Trump ally and friend, Roger Stone, tweeted a similar image calling himself so proud to be one of the deplorables. There`s Stone all the way on the left. On the other side, Stone`s friend and fellow conspiracy theorist, Alex Jones who believes 9/11 was an inside job. We should note this image was tweeted on September 10th. And that cartoon character next to Trump started out several years ago as a random, obscure Internet meme known as Pepe the Frog. It has since been at least partially co-opted by white supremacists and the neo-Nazis for use in all kinds of racist and anti-Semitic garbage, including this tweet, telling political scientist Daniel Nichanian he`s, quote, heading for the oven. That same meme, the one with Roger Stone and Alex Jones and the Nazi frog was posted to Instagram by Donald Trump, Jr., close advisor to his father`s campaign. Joining me now, Trump campaign senior advisor A.J. Delgado, who I do not consider in any way deplorable.

A.J. DELGADO, SENIOR ADVISOR, TRUMP CAMPAIGN: Thank you.

HAYES: All right. Can we look at this Mike Pence sound? Because this is making a lot of news right now.

DELGADO: Sure.

HAYES: This is Mike Pence being asked if he thinks David Duke is deplorable. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: She said there are supporters -- and you know this -- there are some supporters of Donald Trump and Mike Pence who -- like, David Duke, for example, some other white nationalists -- who would fit into that category of deplorables, right?

PENCE: Well, as I`ve told you the last time I was on, I`m not really sur why the media keeps dropping David Duke`s name. Donald Trump has denounced David Duke repeatedly. We don`t want his support and we don`t want the support of people who think like that.

BLITZER: You`d call him a deplorable? You would call him --

PENCE: No. I`m not in the name-calling business, Wolf, you know me better than that. What Hillary Clinton did Friday night was shocking.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: Why can`t you call David Duke deplorable?

DELGADO: Well, he did one better. He denounced him and said he doesn`t want his support. This has been repeatedly said. But I`ll tell you why he hesitated to use Hillary`s term. It`s a media trick. And what Wolf wanted to happen was this, for him to say, well, Hillary said that Donald Trump supporters are deplorable, is David Duke not a Donald Trump supporter?

HAYES: Sure.

DELGADO: Hence, wasn`t Hillary Clinton right? It`s a trick. And this is why --

HAYES: Wait a second. But if --

DELGADO: -- no one likes the media, Chris. It`s a trick.

HAYES: Wait a second, though. But, no, but it`s more than a trick, right? Because there`s a deep sense in which -- look, let`s agree, you and I, that the half is wrong, right?

DELGADO: Mm-hmm.

HAYES: She said it`s wrong, right?

DELGADO: How generous of you.

HAYES: Well, I think it`s -- and I think it`s probably even these sort of generalizations are probably not --

DELGADO: Right.

HAYES: -- too normal. But there are people -- I mean, Alex Jones, this guy believes 9/11`s an inside job, that there were child actors that faked their own death in Newtown. Like, Donald Trump went on his show and said, you have a good reputation. Like, he is supporting Donald Trump. Like, that`s a deplorable person.

DELGADO: I could find you holes in the Hillary Clinton camp that --

HAYES: You cannot find an --

DELGADO: -- are deplorable. Absolutely.

HAYES: Well, Alex Jones?

DELGADO: And why is it you`re always --

HAYES: Alex Jones?

DELGADO: -- fixating on the half issue called deplorable and why don`t you admit that she insulted all Trump supporters?

HAYES: So you want --

DELGADO: So she said half are --

HAYES: Wait a second.

DELGADO: -- deplorable trash -- hang on -- and the other half --

HAYES: She didn`t say trash.

DELGADO: -- are in a dead-end, desperate --

HAYES: She didn`t say trash.

DELGADO: -- worse, I`m being nice -- in a dead-end, desperate, jobless existence.

HAYES: Hey. Let me --

DELGADO: That`s the other half.

HAYES: Let me ask --

DELGADO: So I`m either a bigot or I`m a dead-end loser. That`s what she said about all Trump supporters.

HAYES: I`ll go to the other half in a second, but I want --

DELGADO: She disqualified herself, Chris.

HAYES: I want to ask you this. I want to go to the other half in a second.

DELGADO: Mm-hmm.

HAYES: Half of Trump supporters view African-Americans as more violent than whites.

DELGADO: I`m going to believe that poll, OK.

HAYES: OK. But let`s say the polling ground -- I mean, it is not the Trump campaign`s position --

DELGADO: Well, you should mention -- I`ve seen --

HAYES: Clinton is 31 percent.

DELGADO: (INAUDIBLE), you should mention how they say, oh, well, some Trump supporters don`t believe Obama was born here, like Clinton supporters who are the ones who started birther controversy.

HAYES: No, but there`s a poll that --

DELGADO: So we can do this all day, Chris.

HAYES: Wait, no, but this is a real question, right. This view, viewing African-Americans --

DELGADO: By the way, you don`t admit that the Clinton supporters are the ones that started the birther controversy?

HAYES: No. And also the polling --

DELGADO: This is fact. HAYES: No. Andy Martin actually started that. I wrote a piece about this. Look it up.

DELGADO: This is fact. OK.

HAYES: Wait a second.

DELGADO: (INAUDIBLE) reports.

HAYES: Andy Martin started the birther thing --

DELGADO: Mm-hmm, sure.

HAYES: -- who`s a very weird guy. He was a guest on Sean Hannity`s show.

DELGADO: Nope.

HAYES: But here`s the thing, this view -- I just want to, like, establish a few things here. Like, the view that blacks are more violent than whites, we agree is a racist view.

DELGADO: Absolutely, it`s deplorable. We reject that 100 percent.

HAYES: You reject that?

DELGADO: That is why we --

HAYES: But that is problematic --

DELGADO: -- denounce and do not want the support of David Duke --

HAYES: Wait, you don`t want the support --

DELGADO: How many -- in what language -- can I say it in Spanish? In what language can we say we`ve denounced and do not want David Duke`s support?

HAYES: But wait a second. But you said that is a deplorable view, right, that`s a bad view --

DELGADO: Mm-hmm.

HAYES: -- that blacks are more violent than whites? 49 percent of Trump supporters believe that. That`s a problem.

DELGADO: They`re quoting -- I`m going to believe a random poll that we don`t know how it was phrased, what was asked --

HAYES: OK.

DELGADO: -- or who -- were those really Trump supporters? I`m not going to believe some poll.

HAYES: OK, you don`t believe the -- OK, how about this, let`s -- can we talk about the Muslim ban?

DELGADO: Sure.

HAYES: OK. So the Muslim ban, right?

DELGADO: Yes.

HAYES: Again, like, she used the term Islamophobic.

DELGADO: Mm-hmm.

HAYES: Donald Trump today said that`s insulting, right?

DELGADO: Mm-hmm.

HAYES: But you would agree -- I`m not going to cite a poll, right -- a majority of Trump supporters support the Muslim ban, that`s part of what got him --

DELGADO: I reject the notion that you call it a Muslim ban. What do you mean by that?

HAYES: He said we need to ban all Muslims until we can figure out what`s going on. Those are his words.

DELGADO: No. The current plan is to limit immigration from nations where there is a terrorism issue or a connection.

HAYES: Right. But that --

DELGADO: That was not in --

HAYES: Wait a sec. Does France count?

DELGADO: There was -- well, we can go into --

HAYES: Israel?

DELGADO: That`s a security issue. That`s not for you or I. We`re not experts to decide what nations we`ll have to take a closer vetting position on.

HAYES: Oh, wait a second. He called for a Muslim ban, and when it was the Muslim ban -- right, so before it developed --

DELGADO: Mm-hmm.

HAYES: -- right, when it wasn`t a Muslim ban --

DELGADO: Which was not unconstitutioned, by the way.

HAYES: -- he was still getting a majority of support for that view.

DELGADO: And?

HAYES: Is that not a bigoted view that all Muslims shouldn`t come to the U.S.?

DELGADO: Not necessarily, no. No, when you`re saying as a temporary --

HAYES: Is that not the definition of Islamophobic?

DELGADO: -- no. When you are saying -- no, it depends on the motive behind it. When you`re saying it`s a temporary pause until we figure out what`s happening with terrorism in this country, until we have a better vetting process --

HAYES: All right.

DELGADO: -- a temporary pause, you`re saying would be -- you`re saying his motives were bigoted? You`re saying his motives are bigoted, that it wasn`t a security issue?

HAYES: Yes. I think that any generalization about a billion people --

DELGADO: Well --

HAYES: -- barred from the country --

DELGADO: -- that`s your opinion, though. You can`t say that`s a blanket - -

HAYES: Wait a second. Let me ask you this --

DELGADO: -- prejudice. And by the way, I love that you`re turning the fact that Hillary Clinton has insulted, what, 100 million Americans --

HAYES: It`s not 100 million! It`s not 100 million.

DELGADO: -- into a position -- this has turned into a debate taking it back to November 2015 about the Muslim ban because you don`t want to admit that Hillary Clinton --

HAYES: No, I want --

DELGADO: -- has disqualified herself. She`s disqualified herself.

HAYES: I don`t believe that anything she says --

DELGADO: You don`t think insulting half the nation should disqualify you from running?

HAYES: It`s not half the nation.

DELGADO: She tweeted this herself, Chris.

HAYES: It`s not half the nation.

DELGADO: Chris, three weeks ago she said --

HAYES: She also (INAUDIBLE) half.

DELGADO: -- if you can`t respect --

HAYES: But let me ask you this --

DELGADO: -- this country, how can you serve the country? She`s disqualified.

HAYES: Donald Trump has called the American people --

DELGADO: I agree with her, she`s out.

HAYES: Let me ask you this, let me ask you this. Is there anything -- Donald Trump has said she should apologize for this remark, right?

DELGADO: Mm-hmm.

HAYES: Is there anything Donald Trump has said that he should apologize for?

DELGADO: He did express that there are some things --

HAYES: Regrets.

DELGADO: -- he regrets, yes.

HAYES: Do we know what those are?

DELGADO: Did he ever insult half the country?

HAYES: Let me ask you this, are you --

DELGADO: Did he ever insult half the country?

HAYES: Will you call --

DELGADO: Did he ever insult half the country?

HAYES: Yes. He called the American people stupid --

DELGADO: Half the country?

HAYES: -- he called the people of Iowa stupid --

DELGADO: Really?

HAYES: -- he`s insulted Mexicans and Muslims --

DELGADO: He never did.

HAYES: -- POWs --

DELGADO: Lies. A lie, a lie, a lie.

HAYES: All right, all right. It`s good to have you in person here, A.J. I`ll see you soon?

DELGADO: Love you, Chris.

HAYES: All right.

DELGADO: All right.

HAYES: Still to come, the normalizing of Donald Trump. Why his shocking statements barely seem to register anymore. On a later note, we`ll have an updated Trump`s Last Ten right after this break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HAYES: For months now we`ve been bringing you a segment we call Trump`s Last 10 a running tally of things that had literally any other candidate said or done them probably would end their campaign, but not Donald Trump. It`s been a month since we last updated our list, so time to say good-bye to a bulk of Trump`s old controversies. We`re getting rid of everything from number four, the time that Trump claimed Hillary Clinton`s emails led to the execution of Iranian scientist D not true, by the way; to number 10 that time when Trump called a retired four star general a failed general following his endorsement of Clinton.

So, goodbye to all that, hello to a whole new set of controversies, starting with number 7. Recent Mother Jones investigative report on several models who worked for Trump`s modeling agency who say they were actively encouraged and directed by superiors to skirt immigration rules and work here illegally.

Number six, Trump`s trip to Mexico, which resulted in a Twitter beef with Mexican President Enrique Pena Nieto. Trump claimed the two didn`t discuss who would pay for the proposed border wall. Yet Pena Nieto said actually yeah they did and it wouldn`t be Mexico.

Number five, reporting that Trump may be engaged in his own pay-for-play controversy. Trump recently had to pay the IRS a fine after his foundation illegally donated to a political group associated with Florida attorney general Pam Bondi. Bondi decided not to pursue a fraud case against Trump University not long after she received that donation.

Number four, Trump praising Russian President Vladimir Putin`s leadership as superior to President Obama`s.

Number three, Trump publicly talking about intelligence briefings he`s received, claiming that officials body language showed they were not happy with President Obama.

Number two, Trump`s numerous claims about 9/11, some recently reported by Michael Daily (ph) of the Daily Beast, from saying he`s lost hundreds of friends in the terrorist attack. He has not provided any names. To saying he was able to see people jumping from the towers from four miles away. To pledging thousands of dollars to a 9/11 charity even though there is no record Trump followed through on his promise.

And number one, the latest investigation by David Fahrenhold of The Washington Post detailing how Trump used other people`s money to make donations from the Trump Foundation and even spent $20,000 foundation dollars to buy a six foot portrait of himself.

Of course, we`re not counting anything Trump has said today. His latest jaw dropping interview ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just last week, Senator Elizabeth Warren was working with a group called Fed Up where they`re trying to put constraints on the Fed and get their arms around it a little more. I wonder in a Trump administration, would you be trying to put more constraints of the fed as well?

TRUMP: Well, what I`d want to do is have a policy D I wouldn`t go by what Pocahontas wants you to do, because her D you know, her agenda is obvious. I mean, she`s a disaster. She`s also one of the least effective senators in the United States Senate.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: Donald Trump gave an interview to CNBC this morning in which he just offhandedly referred to a sitting U.S. Senator by a racist moniker. He also called the stock market a false market, accused Fed Chair Janet Yellin, who is independent of the White House, of conspiring to keep interest rates low in order to help Presidnet Obama.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: She`s obviously political. And she`s doing what Obama wants her to do. And I know that`s not supposed to be the way it is, but that`s why it`s low.

But let`s see what happens when interest rates go up.

Now, I think they`re keeping them down, and they`ll keep them down even longer, and any increase at all will be a very, very small increase, Jill, because you know they want to keep the market up so that Obama goes out and let the new guy, whoever that new D let`s call it the new guy, OK, because I like the sound of that much better. But that the new person that becomes president, let him raise interest rates or her raise interest rates, and watch what happens to the stock market when that happens, OK.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: Let me just one small, important thing, the president of the United States does not raise or lower interest rates, that is done by the Fed chair and it`s probably one of the single most important fundamental distinctions between what the Fed does and what the president does.

Anyway, normally referring to a U.S. Senator using a racist slur or suggesting the Fed chair is manipulating the economy for political reasons would be major news, one of the old journalism clichZ man bites dog stories. But comments like these have become so common from Donald Trump they`re more like dog bites man. In other words, not news.

Joining me now, Charlie Pierce, writer-at-large for Esquire. And Charlie, this is the problem, it`s the we don`t cover the planes that land. I mean, it is the case that what was newsworthy has become not newsworthy through sheer repetition like calling Senator Warren Pocahontas, which, in anyone else doing that would be a whole day`s news cycle on the campaign trail.

CHARLIE PIERCE, ESQUIRE: It`s not so much covering the planes that don`t land. We don`t cover the planes that disappear into a fog of nonsense and are never seen again anymore.

Nobody has challenged him on that Pocahontas business ever to my knowledge. No debate monitor, no other candidate, certainly no D you know, television host. So this is, I mean this is a guy using this because he`s gotten away with it.

And right now when you hear stuff like that D I`m not economist, lord knows, but I know that the president doesnOt raise interest rates, OK. I know there isn`t a false stock market. I mean, I think that the basic business model for the stock market is fraud, but that`s a different thing.

Right now we have to decide what`s worse D the crazy, nasty stuff he says about people or the stuff he says which indicates he doesn`t know anything about any major issue of national policy.

HAYES: I had this moment today where I found myself doing it. There was a rally in Nashville, North Carolina and there was a tweet that a Trump supporter punched a protester. And this is true. There is video of it. In fact, two protesters. And I went to look at the video. And it was D it was a Trump supporter and he grabs two different protesters and sort of slaps them.

And I had the thought. I was like, well, it wasn`t that hard a punch. I mean, because what had happened in other environments was outright cold- cocking right.

So, the standard that gets set is a supporter cold-cocking someone in the face. And so I see the video in which it`s a sort of ineffectual punch and I think to myself, well that`s not as bad as the last time. And it seems to me that everybody is falling into that pattern right now.

PIERCE: Oh, it`s remarkable. This has been probably the worst month for elite political journalism certainly since the nonsense that surrounded Al Gore in 2000. And it`s probably worse than that.

You D I mean, it`s D our institutions seem to be completely incapable of confronting the fact that one of our major parties has nominated a guy whom you would move to the other end of the subway car rather than sit next to.

HAYES: But part of that also it`s just D I want to be really clear here about the structural problem here. I mean, there really is the news problem. Like, things that are novel are news and things that are not novel are not news. And Donald Trump saying something offensive is not novel at this point, it`s a genuine problem for how the next 60 days gets covered.

PIERCE: Well, in a generic sense, you`re right. But it is news when one of the two major presidential D one of the two candidates of the major parties for president doesn`t know how the Fed works.

HAYES: Right.

PIERCE: And more to the point, insists he does.

It is news when one of the two candidates from a major party for president of the United States insults a sitting U.S. Senator, that is news. And the idea that he should D that we should all just take this as, you know, as the way he does of doing business is a real piece of journalistic malpractice, at least as far as I`m concerned.

HAYES: All right, Charlie Pierce, always a pleasure. Thanks for joining us.

PIERCE: Thanks.

HAYES: Still to come, the numbers behind Clinton`s deplorables comment and Ta-Nehisi joins me to discuss the message that got lost in the outrage. Stick around for that.

But first, tonight`s Thing One and Thing Two right after this break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HAYES: Thing One tonight, Donald Trump says Americans don`t want Hillary Clinton as president because they don`t want four more years of President Obama.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: She can`t bring change. She`s been doing this for 35 years. She now talks about change. There`s no change. It`s going to be more of the same, only worse. It`s going to be four more years of Barack Obama only worse.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: In fairness to Trump, you can see why it might be a smart strategy to try to position yourself as the candidate of change. It`s an argument he`s been making for awhile now.

Trump tweeted in June, "Obama just endorsed Crooked Hillary. He wants four more years of Obama, but nobody else does.

The problem with Trump`s argument, that`s Thing Two in 60 seconds.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HAYES: So, Trump says if Hillary Clinton wins the election it would be four more years of President Obama. Here`s the problem with that argument: President Obama`s approval rating is at a whopping 58 percent in the latest ABC News/Washington Post poll, that is the highest approval rating the president received in that poll since July of 2009.

Obama`s monthly approval average is rising, reaching levels not seen since his reelection.

And there`s the rub, election forecasting models tend to take the approval rating of the current incumbent president as a strong predictive measure of which party is going to prevail.

So, when Trump says Hillary Clinton is just four more years of Barack Obama, he might just be giving one of the most compelling reason to elect her.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HAYES: Omnipresent Trump surrogate Rudy Giuliani has repeatedly defended Trump`s assertions the U.S. should have taken Iraq`s oil when we invaded. But notice just how far Giuliani goes.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, ABC NEWS: Wouldn`t that just be theft?

RUDY GIULIANI, FRM. NEW YORK CITY MAYOR: Well, no. He said take it so that the Islamic State then would not have had it available.

STEPHANOPOULOS: But he said leave a force back there and take it.

GIULIANI: Leave a force back there and take it and make sure it`s distributed in a proper way. And basically�

STEPHANOPOULOS: But that`s not legal, is it?

GIULIANI: Of course it`s legal. It`s a war. Until the war is over, anything is legal. That oil becomes a very critical issue.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: Until the war is over, anything is legal. Not true. And among the things that are illegal during war, seizure of private property D a former prosecutor should probably know that

Let`s be clear, might makes right has consequences far beyond the illegal taking of oil.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: The other thing is with the terrorists. You have to take out their families. When you get these terrorists, you have to take out their families.

I would bring back waterboarding, and I would bring back a hell of a lot worse than waterboarding.

You know, it used to be to the victor belonged the spoils. Now, there was no victor there, believe me, there was no victor. But I always said take the oil.

And by the way, with Iran, when they circle our beautiful destroyers with their little boats and they make gestures at our people that they shouldn`t be allowed to make they will be shot out of the water.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: The view that you can do anything during war is, for a lack of a better word: deplorable.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: People who want their immigration laws enforced D and we have no choice, we have to do that D and their border secured are not racists, they`re patriotic Americans of all backgrounds who want their jobs and families protected.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: The fallout from Hillary Clinton`s deplorable comment and Donald Trump`s reaction today is focused on Clinton`s so-called gaffe of insulting certain voters.

As Ta-Nehisi Coates points out in The Atlantic, the coverage has largely shied away from the merits of her argument, quote, a reporter or an outlet pointing out the evidenced racism of Trump`s supporters in response to a statement made by his rival risks being seen as having taken a side not just against Trump, not just against racism, but against his supporters too. Real and serious questions about intractable problems are thus translated into one uncontroversial question: who will win."

And joining me now is Tan-Nehisi Coates, national correspondent for The Atlantic, author of "Between the World and Me," winner of the National Book Award. Good to have you here, man.

TA-NEHISI COATES, THE ATLANTIC: Good to be here.

HAYES: So you were D I mean, you`re reaction to watching this play out, your sort of argument was people really shied away from just the question of is she right?

COATES: Yeah. I thought it was especially, you know, for journalists I thought it was a shameless dereliction of duty. We are not political analysts. You know, I understand that political analysis is part of our job, but it`s not the whole job. You know, so it`s certainly fair game to say how will this effect Hillary Clinton.

But the fact that that was the sole question, you know, the sole focus on the horse race I think was deeply, deeply telling about a desire not to engage D you know, in the actual merits of our argument. I think if there were polling data to show that, for instance, Trump supporters were not interested in banning Muslims, you know, from America, were not, you know, interested in any theories of Barack Obama not being born in Kenya, were not, you know D did not believe that 40 percent D or 40 percent of them did not believe that black people, you know, are lazier than white people, those stats didn`t exist I think that would be brought up, you understand.

Like, if you imagine the opposite�

HAYES: That`s such a good point.

COATES: Like if�

HAYES: If it were the case that overwhelming majorities of his voters rejected those things, people would then marshal them to say the claims is wrong on its face.

COATES: Of course, of course they would. Of course they would. And the fact that, you know, they ignore it, you know what I mean, when it`s the other way I think it`s a damning statement on journalism right now.

HAYES: So, here is my question to you. So, I was watching this play out, right. And we just showed this stat, right. This view to me that I think is sort of textbook racism. Blacks are more violent that whites, right, sort of classically racist.

COATES: It`s just race.

HAYES: It`s just race, OK.

But here`s the thing about that, right. So people, all these people tweeting D there it is, 49 percent. But 31 percent are Clinton supporters.

COATES: Right. Right.

HAYES: So, then we`re like, then we`re getting pretty deep into what do we mean by this word deplorable. Like, and who gets to point the finger at whom.

COATES: And that would have been a great article to read. I mean, I`m all for that. You know, you certain can said, you know, hey, you know, she was accurate. But you what, she might also want to look in her own backyard. That`s certainly fair.

But what people did was entirely avoid the subject, because I think even the fact to say if you have half of Trump supporters, if you have 30 percent of Clinton supporters, this is a broad swath of white America. That really is the reason why the conversation doesn`t, you know, need to be engaged D you don`t have to take Hillary Clinton`s side to look at the merits of it. I mean, there`s a way of going deeper.

HAYES: Right. The argument is D the argument is you are talking about so many people ergo it cannot be true that they`re all deplorable, because then what?

COATES: Right. Because then what, because then what.

And I think, you know, there`s a D an understanding, a mythology that, you know, undergirds perhaps all of us, and that is that every day Americans are in their heart ultimately 100 percent good. You know, there`s no room for complexity, there`s no room for your next door neighbor to be a great dad, you know what I mean, to be a good little league coach and also believe blacks are more violent than white people. Like there`s no room for that sort of complexity.

HAYES: That I agree with, but I think part of that then does come back to that word, right, because I think the reason D my reaction to it was, my genuine feeling about politics is you reserve contempt for the powerful and not for everyday Americans, right.

But then at the same time there needs to be a conversation about the fact that, quote, everyday Americans can have all sorts of vile views and then what do we do with that.

COATES: Right. And I think again, you know, to push this further one of the other complicating things is the fact that African-Americans for our entire tenure in this country have been victims of everyday Americans. You know, it wasn`t just rich plutocrats at those lynchings, you know, it wasn`t just, you know, rich plutocrats, you know, who were backing George Wallace, you know what I mean.

And so that has to be�

HAYES: It was hard-working folks.

COATES: It really was, it was. And that wasn`t just hard-working folks. I mean, we should very, very clear about it, it wasn`t just hard-working folks, but you know that has to be grappled with, you know. And I think it`s very, very disturbing for a lot of people.

HAYES: Do you feel D I`ve been talking to people about this D does it feel to you like there`s some Pandora`s Box that has opened with the Trump campaign, like, because I think you have a real deep view of American history and I think your default position is continunity.

COATES: You know what, I think the Pandora`s Box was actually opened by the election of Barack Obama. I think that`s what made Trump possible. I think Trump is a direct response to the election of our first African- American president.

I mean, this is D you know, in some ways literally true. I mean, birtherism was the issue D you know what I mean D that really powered his campaign in the first place, or powered his rise in the first place.

So, I really think D you know, the visage, the image you know of an African-American actually, you know, wielding executive power in this country has opened the door to all sorts of things that were always there, by the way, you know what I mean. But I think perhaps you know in the wake of 9/11 other things have been pushed in the closet for a little while.

HAYES: Do you think that can be stuffed back in the box?

COATES: Probably not. Probably not.

You know, the fact of the matter is, as I said, it was always there. So it was liable to open at some point anyway.

HAYES: What do we do with it?

COATES: Right. Right, right. But probably not. Probably not.

HAYES: Ta-Nehisi Coates, it`s always good to having you on.

COATES: Now it can be avoided by the way, and not talked about.

HAYES: Right. That`s one of the options.

That is All In for this evening. The Rachel Maddow Show starts right now.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED. END