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All In with Chris Hayes, Transcript 8/22/2016

Guests: Harry Enten, Joan Walsh, Jelani Cobb, Jim Newell, Katrina Pierson, Kurt Bardella, Christine Greer

Show: ALL IN with CHRIS HAYES Date: August 22, 2016 Guest: Harry Enten, Joan Walsh, Jelani Cobb, Jim Newell, Katrina Pierson, Kurt Bardella, Christine Greer

[08:00:00] CHRIS MATTHEWS, MSNBC HOST: . to late night edition of Hardball, Trump don`t you think? He keeps saying Hillary is getting a lot of sleep these days, and she said this weekend maybe he ought to try it.

That`s Hardball for now, thanks for being with us I`ll be back in 11:00 p.m. Eastern tonight for another special late night edition of Hardball. All In with Chris Hayes starts right now.



DONALD TRUMP, US PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I want our party to be the home of the African-American voter once again.

HAYES: The Trump outreach continues.

KELLYANNE CONWAY, TRUMP CAMPAIGN MANAGER: And I`m White. I was very moved by his comments.

HAYES: As the AP drops a bombshell headline, racism and talk of religious war in Trumps staff`s online post.

Tonight, what to make of the latest Republican outreach. Plus, can Trump etch-a-sketch on immigration?

TRUMP: Who is going to pay for the wall?

HAYES: And why Donald Trump just delayed his big border speech?

Then new depths in the Hillary Clinton health smears.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Go online and put down Hillary Clinton illness, take a look at the videos for yourself.

HAYES: And inside 80 days.

TRUMP: I just get the feeling we`re going to win in a landslide.

HAYES: An election map gut check when All In starts right now.


HAYES: Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes.

In less than a week since Donald Trump`s big campaign shake-up, his latest attempt to reboot as a kindler, gentler candidate, new reporting from the Associated Press raises questions about the role of racial analyst in the Trump campaign.

The AP looked at the personal social media feeds there were over 50 paid staffers on Trump`s primary campaign (inaudible) post declared Muslims as unfit to be US citizens, ridiculed Mexican accents, called for Secretary of State John Kerry to be hanged and stated the readiness for a possible civil war.

According to the AP a similar review of Clinton`s staff accounts and images attached to over 19,000 hacked DNC e-mails turned up nothing of note. This comes as Trump has been trying to repair his lonesome image of the direct pitch to African-American voters are going in a fact that their lives are just so miserable, things couldn`t possibly get worse with Trump as president.


TRUMP: What do you have to lose by trying something new, like Trump? What do you have to lose? You`re living in poverty, your schools are no good, you have no jobs.

You have 40 percent that are living in poverty, 58 percent of the students, I mean the young people, they can`t get jobs. You know it`s just like a total catastrophe, the unemployment rates, everything is bad, no healthcare, no education, no anything.

Poverty, rejection, horrible education, no housing, no homes, no ownership, crime at levels that nobody has seen, you can go to war zones in countries that we`re fighting and it`s safer than living in some of our inner cities.


HAYES: By the way, that last part about crime at levels nobody has ever seen, it just flatly, completely, empirically false. But, when it comes to wooing Black voters, Trump has his work cut out for him. After first demanding the President of the United States produce his papers, then launching his campaign with a slur about Mexican immigrants calling for a ban on Muslims entering the country and failing to properly reject support from a valid White supremacist among other offenses.

Republican nominee has support from just 17 percent of non-White registered voters overall in the latest NBC news poll. Among African Americans, he`s at a rock bottom 1 percent. On top of his bigoted remarks, Trump dismissed these issues like criminal justice reform and voting rights which are high priority from many Black voters instead discussing voter fraud and crime in coded terms.


TRUMP: The only way we could lose, in my opinion, I really mean this, Pennsylvania, is if cheating goes on, if in certain sections of the state, they cheat. The problem in our poorest communities is not that there are too many police, the problem is there are not enough police.


HAYES: While he`s trying to deliver a somewhat more inclusive message over the past week, Trump sent a very different signal by hiring Steve Bannon, the Chairman of Breitbart News as his new campaign CEO, a site known for bigoted attacks on immigrants, Muslims, and African-Americans among others. Revealingly, the website even has a discreet tag for articles related to "Black crime." Bannon embraces the organization`s racial politics proudly telling Mother Jones, we`re the platform for the alt-right, a term which is a new more politically correct term for White supremacist in the digital age. So when Donald Trump promises to get 95 percent of the Black vote after four years in office, even his running mate, Mike Pence can`t take him seriously.


[08:05:01] UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He says by 2020 he`s going to have 95 percent of the African-American support. Why are you laughing?

GOV. MIKE PENCE, (R), INDIANA: And Well that`s Donald Trump. Look, he has a heart for every American. And he also-- he`s a truth teller.


HAYES: And the observers have noticed that Trump`s pitch to the African- Americans has been delivered to almost all White audiences, suburban Wisconsin and Michigan and on Fox news. It`s also lack of opportunity, in fact Trump has turned down invitations to address predominantly Black audiences including from the NAACP and the National Association of Black Journalists.

An interview of the weekend Trump`s new campaign manager pollster Kellyanne Conway alluded to the intended recipients of Trump`s message.


CONWAY: These comments are for all Americans. And I live in a White community. I`m White. I was very moved by his comment. In other words, he is trying to tell Americans we can do better.


HAYES: Joining me now, Former RNC Chairman, Michael Steele and our MSNBC political analyst Kurt Bardella, who`s President and CEO of Endeavor Strategies Communications Firm that represented Breitbart News until recently, and Christina Greer Associate Professor of political science at Fordham University author of "Black Ethnics: Race, Immigration, and the Pursuit of the American Dream."

Michael, let me start with you. So you`ve got this thing going on, so you`ve making this sort of a punitive approach, right to be in (inaudible).


HAYES: To think that this is even (inaudible) tonight, telling his supporters and he has this line, you know what I mean, and listen very carefully to watch the election, the polls on Election Day. Take a listen.


TRUMP: You`ve got to get every one of your friends, you`ve got to get every one of your family, you`ve got to get everybody to go out and watch and go out and vote. And when I say watch, you know what I`m talking about, right? You know what I`m talking about. I think you got to go out and you got to watch.


HAYES: What`s he talking about, Michael?

STEELE: Hell if I know. But I think we know. I mean, I think there is the not so subtle inference that somehow, you know, that there is going to be, you know, sort of a stacking of the deck with minority voters and certain communities in the country whether in Philadelphia or places like Baltimore city or.

HAYES: Right.

STEELE: You know Detroit and Michigan, which is it`s, you know, just ludicrous in the -- on its face. But it`s also, you know, the rest of that argument goes to the point that you know he`s trying to get his base vote to turn out because at the end of the day, regardless of how you cut this thing, he needs at a minimum that base to be in place for him. So to stoke it into, to massage it to get to that point, that`s what a lot of his hot rhetoric does a lot of times. And it`s unfortunate. I mean, both parties have engaged in it in various forms over the years. He`s more blatant and more direct about it, oddly enough.

HAYES: Kurt, let me talk to you for second about Breitbart. You work -- you had a contract with them, you represented them, you left, you don`t have particularly kind things to say about Steve Bannon, the man who is now ending up the Trump campaign. I mean, in terms of Steve Bannon`s racial politics, because the guy is now running this campaign, I just think about like what the thinking that goes in a website that creates a Black crime tag to me just says a lot about what that website views itself as doing.

KURT BARDELLA, PRESIDENT CEO OF ENDEAVOR STRATEGIES COMMUNICATION FIRM: Well, and I think that there`s an alignment there between Steve and Donald Trump, which is why Donald put Steve in this position to be the CEO of his campaign. And while we`re seeing the coded language that we`ve become all too familiar with from Donald Trump on the campaign trail, that fits perfectly in alignment with what Steve believes and the direction he thinks that this country should take. And it`s incredibly dangerous, it`s divisive.

And at the end of the day, the idea that Republicans can have some outreach to African-American voters in the community by saying the right things. At the end of the day, people want policies and solutions. And there is a whole generation of African-Americans who are being wiped out right now because of poverty, because of crime, because of circumstances that they are trapped in. And if Republicans are going to really to make serious end roads with that community, they`re going to have to talk about solutions and policies and not why everything is so wrong and blaming people in and trying to turn the worst instincts of Americans against one another to try to get ahead politically.

HAYES: I think one of the things, Christina that is so fasting about watching this whole thing, because I think the politics of about the duration of the Obama era continue to be the main theme of American politics, probably the main theme of American politics from the first moment of Jamestown.

In fact, read the letter that the captain of the ship wrote about like the Indians and Savages. But anyway, I digressed. You know, you`ve got a situation here where in some ways, right at one level, African-Americans have not been the group that Donald Trump has most frankly attacked report or said bigoted statements about, right. It is mostly the immigrants and Muslims in terms of like his policy plans. And yet the support among that group is very low, because when we talk about coded messages, my sense is that those voters are hearing exactly what other voters on the other side are hearing.

[08:10:02] CHRISTINA GREER, FORDHAM UNIVERSITY: Right, so first things first, in the history of America is the history of race and racism.

HAYES: Right.

GREER: Right? And so when Donald Trump`s speak about immigrants or Muslims or whomever, it maybe women and even still a lot of Black Americans are so used to, if you were talking one group, you are also talking about Black Americans. I mean, there is a certain level of solid area where we hear these dog whistles that most White Americans will never hear.

HAYES: Right. That`s right.

GREER: That`s first. This non-genuine attempt to speak to African- Americans, he`s a business owner. So, we do know the blacks voters are some of the savviest voters in this country, right? And we do know that Black voters have shown up in presidential elections, especially the past three cycles.

HAYES: And Black women will sort of out -- turn out anyone in America.

GREER: Exactly. We are the ones who are(inaudible). So he recognizes that (inaudible) someone in that asylum gets it, right? And so for him to make this statement about Black Americans, I said well, if you were genuine in your attempts in getting this vote, why don`t you say, well I`ve been a business owner for x number, or 40 years, I`ve hired this many women, I`ve hired this many people of color, I hired this many percentage of people who have gone on to own businesses. He hasn`t done that because he`s a failure, right. And so this is now his loose attacks to make sort of White Americans feel better about voting for him and not seem like blatant racist.

HAYES: That, I mean .

GREER: Or (inaudible) or homophobic, or (inaudible) immigrants.

HAYES: So, one level Michael that seems to me this classic thing, right, where you don`t want to see tab. You don`t want to be -- is he unacceptably racist, right? You don`t want to see to be elect people whatever their racial attitudes let`s say a White college educated woman of the Georgia suburbs, wherever she fits on the scale of her politics about race or crime, she doesn`t want to feel associated with the Klan, right?


HAYES: She doesn`t want to feel she`s voting for someone who is an avowed White, right. So part of that is, is this appeal. But what I think is so interesting about what`s happening here in terms of how this language is being communicated, you know Mitt Romney lost Asian-Americans by a huge percentage. The biggest landslide among Asian-Americans as the fastest growing population demographically in the sense but it wasn`t like he had like anti-Asian immigration rhetoric, right? It was the fact that there`s an understanding of what the political constituencies and collisions of the country are such that people are finding themselves on the other side. And Donald Trump is exacerbating that whatever he is saying at these rallies.

STEELE: Yes I mean, I think that that`s a big part of what we`ve seen unfold in our political rhetoric for quite some time. Not just in this race. I mean, you can really take it back to I think some of its origins going back to the 2000 campaign where you started to divide the country up by color, red states versus blue states, et cetera. So this idea has been allowed to fester for some time.

Donald Trump comes along and has exploited it very well in many cases at least successfully enough to get through a primary process in which no other Republican had a counter argument, which I found absolutely stunning.

HAYES: Right.

STEELE: So this is the space we`re now in. And what is going to be very interesting, and I think really, to Christina`s point, is how this resonates not just beyond, because we know the message goes beyond, you know, the community of color that he`s talking to, African America but more importantly how do black women who are the backbone of the vote in the Black community. How do they then articulate that going forward to really put the pressure out there to say, you know what, we ain`t stupid,

HAYES: Right.

STEELE: We need a little bit more than just your citing the statistics.

HAYES: So Kurt this point -- this is one question I have, and what we`re talking about in the moment about immigration policy. Is your sense that he has earned his bonafides with the Breitbart crew enough? That he can basically say whatever he wants to this point and they believe Trump is with them? Like other any heresies that he couldn`t cross and lose essentially what is this sort of White nationalist base?

BARDELLA: Well I think that you saw a little bit of maybe the limitations of his relationship with that audience this week as it came out that perhaps he was changing his mind about how he was going to deal with deportation and all of a sudden the immigration speech gets postponed and pushed back. Because that alt-right audience feels so ludicrously passionate about some of these issues that it doesn`t matter who the figure is they could potentially turn on you in a dime.

I mean, remember, some of these leaders that were elected in the 2010 Tea Party wave and were put into key positions, they`re no longer with us and they were completely turned the tea party. I think that Trump realized very quickly and his campaign realized very quickly that as he maybe made that pivot the other day about not being on the deportation, the brakes got put on that really quick and all of a sudden he now comes out with again charged rhetoric, trying to change the story, trying to divert attention that Hillary Clinton and some of her challenges. It`s -- yes that`s the formula.

HAYES: Are the margins going to hold, do you think, given though the sort of trajectory of all this, this like 1 percent, 2 percent numbers, those things possible to you?

GREER: They do.

HAYES: As a political scientist?

GREER: Yeah, as a scholar.

HAYES: Yes, I mean seriously?

[08:15:01] GREER: With no job, no education, no house, right?

HAYES: That`s right. Yes, that`s exactly .

GREER: Just an Ivy League PhD.

HAYES: Right.

GREER: But that`s OK. So they will hold. I really do because he has been feeding his audience red meat and he cannot turn back. And this is a saying and he says, you know, the streets are dangerous but at the same time he`s like but we know what that means. And so, he constantly has this urban racialized language. And he.

HAYES: You can`t dog whistle without the other -- with the people everyone else hearing it, right?

GREER: Exactly.

HAYES: I mean, people understand what the coded language is.

GREER: Right. And so, and at the same time, saying he wants to keep the police militarized. Well, that`s a major issue of Black Americans who live in cities, right? And these are the people who we look at the map, as Michael said blue states, red states, but, they aren`t red stat states. It`s -- They`re all red states. It`s blue cities in red states.

HAYES: That`s true.

GREER: Right. Do you have enough blue cities in red states to flip it blue? So, he loses in the 270 race.

HAYES: Michael Steele, Kurt Bardella, Christina Greer, thank you all for joining me.

Still to come, as Rudy Guilliani ascends the ranks to Donald Trump`s inner circle, a look at depths he sank to get there. But first, a new twist in the center piece of Donald Trump`s campaign, his latest comments as Kurt just mentioned is elusive immigration policy right after this two-minute break.



TRUMP: We`re going to build a wall, folks, we`re going to build a wall. We`re going to build a wall. Don`t worry, we`re going to build a wall. That wall will go up so fast your head will spin. And you`ll say, you know, he meant it. And you know what else I mean? Mexico is going to pay for the wall.


HAYES: It has been one of the few quasi consistencies of his campaign from the moment he drifted down that escalator, Donald Trump has repeatedly vilified the immigrants. He`s mentioned building a wall along the southern boarders so many times that crowd at his rallies like the one just last night greet the phrase, build the wall with thunderous applause and sometimes finish his sentences about who`s going to pay for it.

He has been uncompromising in his advocacy from mass deportations even pitching the idea of an -- of a deportation force to remove some 11 million undocumented immigrants in the US.

Over the weekend, there seemly a few sign that some of his positions may be starting to shift. After Trump met with a group of Hispanic leaders, some of the room seemed optimistic Republican nominee who`s going to modify his position on mass deportations. One attendee telling innovation, "I really liked that Trump acknowledged that there`s a big problem with the 11 million undocumented people over here and that deporting them is neither possible nor humane."

His newly minted campaign manager Kellyanne Conway added a speculation, Trump might be starting to shift his position.


CONWAY: As the weeks unfold he will lay out the specifics of that plan that he would implement as president of the United States.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Will that plan include a deportation force, the kind he -- you just heard them that sound bite and then he talked about during the Republican primaries?

CONWAY: To be determined.


HAYES: Even the hands of a possible pivot on immigration sent him Trump the Fox News this morning consist he was not "flip-flopping" on the issue even thought he still had no specifics somewhere he currently stands.


[08:20:04] TRUMP: I will tell you, we`re dealing with people. We have to be very firm. We have to be very, very strong when people come in illegally. We have a lot of people that want to come in through the legal process. It`s not fair for them. And we`re working with a lot of people in the Hispanic community to try and come up with an answer.


HAYES: Just in case the message wasn`t clear, Eric Trump also dispatched to assure supporters there was no softening on immigration.


ERIC TRUMP, DONALD TRUMP`S SON: My father hasn`t flip flopped on anything. I meant, this was all the auspices and one article that came out that didn`t really -- wasn`t grounded in any substance. But, again, my father is going to be in this big speech on Thursday and so he`ll be talking a lot about the specifics.


HAYES: Well, it turns out we won`t be getting those specifics on Trump`s immigration policy any time soon late today. Trump`s big immigration speech planned for this Thursday in the formerly battleground state of Colorado was called off. No word on when and it will be reschedule.

Joining me now NBC and MSNBC political reporter Benjy Sarlin, who`s been documenting this confusional Trump campaign. His latest piece is entitled "Solving the Mystery of Donald Trump`s Missing Immigration Policy".

Benjy, you`ve been covering immigration policy for awhile, you`ve also been covering Trump for awhile. What do you think is going on here?

BENJY SARLIN, MSNBC IMMIGRATION CORRESPONDENCE: Immigration is indeed one of trump`s signature issues. You played the clips. You heard him say, build the wall again, build the wall, build the wall, make Mexico pay for it.

Here`s the funny thing, Trump talks about building the wall a lot but he`s actually often than sort of vague and even flexible on what to do with people already here. Now, why does this matter? You probably heard the most about the wall if you`ve been following his campaign. But if you covered the immigration debate in 2013, by far the biggest issue was legal status or a path to citizenship or no legal status for undocumented immigrant.

And in fact, if you went to Democrats and said, hey, we`ll give you a deal, we`ll build Donald Trump`s wall but in exchange we`ll give you a path to citizenship, they almost certainly would take it. In fact, the gang is (inaudible) attached in 2013 included a requirement for 700 miles of fencing. It was put in there just to bring in Republican voters. Trump doesn`t seem to understand this.

HAYES: And literally billions of dollars, billions of dollars of extremely militarized weaponry to be deployed to the border as well.

SARLIN: Exactly. They were going to actually double the border patrol, add another 20,000 people. I mean, the basic idea for Democrats was that OK, you know, it`s like the equivalent of, you know, land for peace as the basis of Israeli-Palestinians are, enforcement for legalization as the basis for all immigration negotiations that are bipartisan.

So, the Democratic idea is, you know, basically name your price on enforcement and on immigration as what you know if it`s just money, or just money we don`t care, we`ll take the rest as part of the deal. Trump, however, does not have a strong working knowledge of these kinds of subtleties. He just kind of barreled you know, cannon ball them to the debate late. As late as 2013 and 2012, he sounded like he might even be pro-immigration reform. It`s actually relatively reason and only during his presidential campaign that we started hearing this talk of mass deportations and things like that and deporting entire families.

In fact, he met with a group of dreamers in 2013 and they came away just like the Hispanic Republicans who met with Trump this week convinced that he was on their side. So, this is just an issue we thought about all that much compared to a border wall.

HAYES: Right. And what is hilarious to me, darkly comical, I suppose, is watching him try to square the circle that everybody who`s been working in this area, reporting on it, thinking about it, legislating about it has been trying to square for years.

I mean, all these problems have been there. I covered the McCain-Kennedy fight in 2006, 2007. You and I both cover the conference immigration fight of 2012 and 2013, all of this stuff is tough and thorny and doesn`t have easy solutions and all of a sudden it`s like -- he`s like a college kid with the deadline with a speech on Thursday. It`s like, yeah, we`re going to work this out in time.

SARLIN: Exactly. If you were covering his debate, I mean it was like pulling teeth getting answers out of so many lawmakers on what their position was on this simple question of do people who are here, who came here illegally get to stay?

Senator Ted Cruz maintained total ambiguity on this for years. It was only during primaries when he was getting pushed really hard by Rubio and by Trump that he actually officially said my policy is all this have to leave, basically the Mitt Romney self-deportation position.

But, yes, this is an area where people choose their words very carefully. Trump is not one of those guys. He just kind of go shoots from the hip, explains it later and now it`s getting into some real problems he does not have a policy that particularly makes sense or it fits together on this issue.

HAYES: And David (inaudible) sort of taunting Trump who had attacked Mitt Romney for his self deportation rhetoric as essentially that he`s going to end up painting himself into precisely the same corner because it`s the only way that he could kind of pull all these various threads together in a way that makes any remote policy sense.

SARLIN: Right. And this is one of those ironic things here. Before Trump announced, he would have this deportation force that rounds up everyone and he said in under two years you can get rid of all 11 million undocumented immigrants, basically no one was calling for that, even among the groups that were opposed to the gang of eight.

HAYES: Yeah, even the hardest right edge of American immigration politics did not .

[08:25:01] SARLIN: Right. That was basically -- their idea was basically, we just won`t give some kind of "amnesty." Hopefully if we make it harder for them to live there, they`ll leave. He just like ignored that debate entirely and went for something much further and now, it`s much tougher to walk it back as a result. He -- you end up with a very confusing policy.

HAYES: All right, Benjy Sarlin, thanks for that.

Still to come, Donald Trump tonight in Ohio to the crowd he had a feeling he`s going to win the landslide. Tonight, why the numbers right now do not agree an electoral gut check, ahead.


HAYES: Hillary Clinton`s health is now a full-scale fringe internet conspiracy theory, along the same level as the 2008 insanity that Sarah Palin didn`t actually give birth to her own baby which made the rounds during that presidential cycle, thanks Andrew Sullivan for that ride away.

The difference of course is that the Palin nonsense was never actually put front and center by the actual campaign of Barack Obama. But, in this election cycle the kind of fever swamp fantasies provide by Alex Jones and pedaled by Sean Hanny tin segment after excruciating segment along with assorted doctors is also insinuated again, again by Donald Trump himself when he talk about things like Hillary Clinton`s sleeping.


TRUMP: Let me just say she`s totally protected. I`ve never seen anything like it by the media. And she doesn`t really do that much to give a speech on the tele prompter and then she`ll disappear. I don`t know she goes home and go to sleep. I think she sleeps.


HAYES: Trump even tweet, "Where`s Hillary, sleeping?" Just be clear it`s not just insinuation, the campaign talks about Hillary health conspiracy theory, as if they are ann actual thing.


KATRINA PIERSON, ACTIVIST: He had said that she doesn`t have the strength or the stamina for a very long time. That part is nothing new. What`s new are the other reports of the observations of Hillary Clinton`s behavior and mannerisms.


HAYES: Reports of observations. One of the most zealous pushers of the health conspiracy theory appears to be Trump surrogate Rudy Giulliani, the former mayor of New York. Just how far Guiliani has fallen, right? After the break.



RUDY GIULIANI, FRM. MAYOR OF NEW YORK CITY: Several signs of illness by her. All you`ve got to do is go online.

UNIDENITIFIED FEMALE: Her campaign and a number of people defending her saying there is nothing factual to the claims about her health and that`s speculation at best.

GIULIANI: So go online and put down Hillary Clinton illness and take a look at the videos for yourself.


HAYES: Let me Google that for you. Former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani slipping in references to Hillary Clinton`s health this weekend. Even when he wasn`t asked about her health and even when the anchor is fact checking him in real-time, it`s a tactic Giuliani employed again this morning.


GIULIANI: I think Hillary is tired, I do. When I saw Hillary at the press conference sitting down with the police -- with the Democrat appointed police chiefs pretending she`s pro police, it was one of the most pathetic press conferences I have ever seen.

UNIDENITIFIED MALE: What do you mean?

GIULIANI: Well first, she looks sick.


HAYES: This is the gotcha video to which Giuliani refers. Hillary Clinton was sitting during a conference with law enforcement officials in New York last Thursday, as was everybody else. It would have been weird if she were standing.

It`s worth noting that on the spectrum of change, Giuliani is pretty far along. Low lights include not just Clinton health conspiracy theories, also such things as defending Trump`s most bigoted policy positions pointed out by Jelani Cobb, staff writer for The New Yorker, and his recent piece "The Appalling Last Act of Rudy Giuliani."

Jelani joins me now. What do you mean by the appalling last act?

JELANI COBB, THE NEW YORKER: Well, I mean, this is a really quick kind of preface point. One of the interesting things that New Yorkers remember is that Guiliani was actually supposed to challenge Hillary Clinton for that Senate seat and he pulled out in 2000. He pulled out because of his health.

HAYES: That`s right.

That`s true. I forget about that.

COBB: He had that a projection there. He had prostate cancer at the time., to give you health projection going on here.

But the other thing I think that`s the case with him is that there were -- I mean, he was an abrasive person. He was a polarizing person when he was mayor here. Certainly, there were many African-Americans who were off put by his inability to recognize issues excessive force among police officers. But there were things that you had to give him credit on, at least redeeming kind of qualities, one of which was that he -- when proposition 187 happened in California, which would have denied crucial social services and emergency services, paramedics all those things to people who were in the country who were undocumented immigrants, Guiliani said that was inhumane, not once but three different times.

HAYES: In fact, here is a quote from your piece 1996 on immigration. This is Giuliani himself.

COBB: Giuliani, right.

HAYES: The anti-immigration issue now sweeping the country in my view no different than the movements that struck the country in the past. You look back at the Chinese Exclusionary Act and the Know Nothing Movement, these were movements that encouraged Americans to fear foreigners, to fear something that is different and to stop immigration.

COBB: That`s right.


HAYES: A long way from build a wall...

COBB: A long way...

HAYES: The immigration force, yeah.

COBB: And one of the other things I think that he did that people didn`t remember, right after 9/11, when there were these reports of people of Arab descent or people who were Muslim being targeted and attacked, Giuliani spoke out against that vocally, and now to come full circle and to have embedded himself essentially with the most prominent xenophobe in recent American history, that`s the appalling part at the end of his career.

HAYES: And Josh Marshall (ph) at Talking Points Memo makes this point, which I think is so true, is that everyone who -- is in the Trump orbit ends up kind diminished or humiliated by the experience.

I mean, Chris Christie seems to have wisely sort of distanced himself after he didn`t get the VP slot. We have not seen him sort of by the side, but there was such, you know, everyone was covering the way that Christie seemed to be like the errand boy. And now, you have Giuliani who -- it`s like everyone -- something about the sort of magnetic political force of Donald Trump, darkly magnetic, is that when you get in the orbit, you end up in the vortex.

COBB: Right.

And what`s interesting is that even recently, Giuliani had spoken out against some of Trump`s policies, which was that in May, when Trump was talking about creating the ban on Muslim immigration, Giuliani said that would violate the First Amendment and was unnecessary.

And then, a few months later he was saying, well, perhaps I would consider leading the commission that Trump says he wants to put together on this issue.

HAYES: What I -- what is also striking to me, as aside from telling people to Google, I mean, you can tell them to Google controlled demolition in Building 7.

COBB: Or Area 51.

HAYES: Right, as Dave Wygl (ph) pointed out in a very good tweet. I mean, there`s lots of stuff you can Google.

Is that in some ways Giuliani is sort of the microcosm of the broader sort of the way in which the Republican Party is being held together, which is that it all seems essentially essentially focused on Hillary animus.

What he really relishes, what he sort of gets passionate about, is that part of the equation.

COBB: Right, that election that he never got to run in, yeah.

And I think that one of the kind of more interesting things about him is he does not have any constituency that he has to appeal to. He does not have to worry about the RNC pulling funds from his re-election campaign, none of these things.

I think that he is just kind of desperate for relevance at this point.

HAYES: That bruise you saw Rudy Giuliani addressing was the result of an injury sustained in circumstances that are not quite unclear. And it would be sort of appalling for me to sit on television and suggest to people that they like speculate or Google about that.

Giuliani Cobb -- Jelani Cobb.

COBB: Oh my god, seriously?

HAYES: That was quite a slip. Jelani Cobb. Thank you very much.

Coming up, we got a look at just how the Trump campaign is spending its money. There`s a detail there we think you should know more about. More on that after this break.


HAYES: Thing one tonight, the Trump campaign filed their July fund- raising report Friday submitting it just minutes before the midnight deadline. The filing showed the campaign is bringing in money with $36 million in donations, the highest yet for the campaign. Although, still less than the Clinton campaign`s $52 million haul.

The Trump campaign spent $18 million, that`s the highest monthly tally yet, although still less than the $32 million spent by Clinton.

So, has the Trump campaign the funds to do the fundamental, most basic operations necessary to compete in a national general election.

Not exactly. They spent $0 on TV ads in July, purchasing $4 million in ads last week that are not reflected in the last report. Clinton has so for spent $61 million on TV ads.

And the Trump campaign staff and field organizers increased by just six people from June to 83 people compared to over 700 paid Clinton staffers.

So, if they weren`t on the air or beefing up staff, what did the Trump campaign spend its money on? And that is Thing Two in 60 seconds.


HAYES: The Trump campaign spent more in July than any previous months since Trump launched his campaign 14 months ago, doling out $18 million, none of that money went to TV ads and they added just six staff members.

So, where did all that money go? Well, the bulk of it went into raising more money. A full 45 percent, or $8.4 million, went to Giles Parsco (ph), it`s a digital marketing firm that has done Trump`s online advertising. You may have seen ads like this soliciting donations at the top of Drudge Report, or this big donate button ad on Breitbart`s website.

That strategy, spending money to raise more money is similar to the Ben Carson campaign model, which directed the bulk of its spending on fund- raising. We know where that got him once the voting began.

Other were big expenditures for Trump`s campaign included over $3 million for travel, nearly 800,000 to reimburse Trump-owned companies and $1.8 million on merchandise like Trump hats, which is notably more than twice as much as he spent on staff.

But perhaps the strangest expenditure was $20,000 that went to a CNN contributor, a man who is being paid by that network to give his analysis while also receiving a check from Trump`s campaign. Of course, we`re talking about ousted campaign manager Corey Lewandowski who received his regular $20,000 monthly fee on July 6, two weeks after he was jettisoned and had been hired as a CNN political commentator.

Which is strange. But the Trump campaign told The Washington Post the payment was for work Lewandowski did weeks before when he was still at the campaign.

Of course, since it has been reported that Lewandowski still talks to Trump regularly, gives him advice. I suppose it wouldn`t be surprising if he is still getting paid for his services next month as well.

It`s nice work if you can get it.


HAYES: I`ve got to say, these headlines were so stark they even caught my attention on vacation last week. Aetna announcing it will pulling out of Obamacare in 11 of 15 states, one month after the Justice Department sued to stop them from buying another health insurer called Humana.

Humana has also pulled out of many Obamacare markets. And United Healthcare scaled back in April, which means that as of right now, come 2017, at least four states: Alaska, Alabama, South Carolina, Wyoming will be down to just one Obamacare insurer in those exchanges. And at least one rural community, Pinal County in Arizona, will have no Obamacare insurers after losing Blue Cross and Blue Shield and HealthNet too.

So, what happens with Obamacare and what can be done to fix it? Slate magazine`s Jim Newell just took a comprehensive look at that. He joins me now.

And Jim, I was sort of following this story a bit. I was on vacation. But I had to kind of like, well, this doesn`t all look very good, feeling generally about it. What`s your assessment?

JIM NEWELL, SLATE: I think Aetna sparked talk that`s been simmering for a little while, because earlier this year, United Healthcare and Humana dropped out of a lot of markets at once.

It seems like it`s an opportunity for Republicans to say the law has failed completely and needs to be gotten rid of right now, and that`s not true. In most parts of the country it`s working really wellm it`s just in some rural areas where you have sicker or older populations, where insurers are finding they can`t necessarily make any money here and they`re backing out for now. So, there are limited options.

The problem is that though you`re seeing some movement at the top of the Democratic Party -- you`ve had President Obama and Hillary Clinton each come out in support for a public option and a list of other fixes to this, you`re not hearing much from Democrats further down the ballot. They are still fighting this on the battleground of Republicans are trying to eliminate the law completely. And we need to defend what we have here.

But it`s looking like this law is going to be coming for some fixes, which is not unusual -- big pieces of legislation require legislative maintenance, but it`s something that is going to have to be considered and more thoroughly gotten down to a list of a few possible fixes before next year.

HAYES: So that`s the question to me. I mean, this is normal -- the legislation has legislative fixes. A lot of times things are creaky or don`t work, or parts of it work, parts of it don`t. The problem that`s fundamentally seems to me is that there doesn`t seem any interest by Republicans to fix the law.

I mean, you have to have some sort of buy-in before you could actually have a legislative fix. And that just seems absent. So, it`s like, what`s going to happen?

NEWELL: Right. I mean, it`s a tricky spot, because you do have to -- since Republicans haven`t bought in yet, you do still have to defend and point out the good things the law has done, but you also can`t see this entire Rhetorical terrain to them where they`re saying there are these flaws. The whole thing is doomed. And you just say, well, we`ve done all of these -- it`s done all these great things and sort of ignore the flaws that are there, not the majority of the program, but that are still there.

So, it`s a tricky needle to go through.

I think it`s probably a little more helpful if -- you know, there are some states -- some Senate races -- Arizona which you mentioned is being pummeled by some of these insurers leaving. The Democratic candidate there is just being attacked on this a lot, and, you know, doesn`t necessarily want to talk about it a lot.

In North Carolina, I asked where there`s going to be one insurer for most of the state next year. The Senate candidate there if she would support a public option or some other remedies and the subject was changed sort of to a message about defending Medicare.

So, I mean, it`s something like I understand the difficulty of it but, you know, the book is sort of being reopened with some good metaphors someone used in this story.

HAYES: Democrats have to be proactive about actually making the law as good as it can possibly can be and spell that out.

Jim Newell. It`s a great piece at Slate. Check it out. Thanks so much.

NEWELL: OK, thanks, Chris.

HAYES: Up next, an electoral map gut check and the truth behind those tightened national polls after this break.



TRUMP: Look, these are very greedy people. These are people that have skirted the law for a long time. Hard to believe that, you know, somebody like this has a good chance, a fairly good chance of being president, although if you look at the most recent polls, I think things are turning. I think they`re turning rather rapidly.


HAYES: In an interview this morning on Fox and Friends, Donald Trump, as he often does, exaggerated his poll position.

Well, it`s true, he has recently seen a slight improvement in his national numbers. For example, in the RealClearPolitics average, Clinton was up eight points August 10 and now that lead down to 5-and-a-half

There is a discrepancy between national and state polls. The statistician Nate Silver points out national polls show the race tightening, but state polls don`t.

In fact, three recent swing state polls still show Trump losing to Clinton -- 6 points in Ohio, 9 points in Florida, 11 points in Virginia.

The question here is with 77 days to go until the election, do marginal increases in national polls actually seem to find anything for Trump when the state polls still show significantly down.

Joining me now Joan Walsh, national affairs correspondent of The Nation, MSNBC political analyst and Harry Enten, senior political analyst and Harry Enten, senior political writer and analyst for FiveThirtyEight.

And Harry, let me start with you, what is the sense of the degree to which there should be a lockstep relationship between national polling and what we see in battleground state polling.

HARRY ENTEN, FIVETHIRTYEIGHT: Well, what we saw four years ago, right, was the national polls right to the end showed a really tight race between Mitt Romney and Barack Obama, but the state polls, in fact, showed Barack Obama easily winning the electoral college, and the state polls were right.

In fact, if you were to do a study over the past few election cycles, what we know is that the state polling, when you ad is all together, gives you a more accurate idea of what`s going to happen on election day, not just in the states themselves, but when you tally them up and weight them by population, what`s going to happen to the nation as a whole.

HAYES: That is fascinating. Here`s what I think is so interesting, Joan, we`re basically getting what you -- you can never convince someone to run a natural experiment in a big high stakes election, which one side didn`t campaign and one side did to study what the effects of a campaign are.

But you`re basically getting that. I mean, things might change in the 77 days, but it`s like, the Clinton campaign, they`ve got 200 people in Ohio and they`ve spent all this money on ads and Donald Trump has spent nothing.

So, we`re kind of going to get to see.

JOAN WALSH, THE NATION: Yeah. And that`s why I think -- I mean, I personally believe -- and you know full disclosure, my daughter is a regional organizer for Hillary Clinton.

HAYES: Right. She`s doing this work. Work my brother did for years.

WALSH: Maybe it`s meaningless. Maybe it all means nothing.

HAYES: Well, we are going to find out.

WALSH: We are going to find out.

But I mean, that`s why I`m so confident that state polls are more reliable, as Harry said, and also that the gaps could be bigger because the ground game that she has in Ohio, in North Carolina, in Virginia is really formidable. And he`s doing almost nothing.

We heard about the 12-year-old who is running an office for Donald Trump in Colorado.

I mean, god bless 12 year-olds. I think it`s great, we like youth. But, yeah.

I mean, political scientists will have a lot to study and maybe we`ll all learn that it doesn`t matter. But I don`t think so.

HAYES: Well, let`s take a look because you raise this, and it is the sort of best curio of the day from the campaign. Here is the aforementioned 12-year-old running a county for Donald Trump. Take a look.


UNIDENITIFIED MALE: In one of the most important elections of our lifetime.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I understand you signed up to volunteer for the Trump campaign.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In one of the most important counties for the state...


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Donald Trump campaign is relying on 12-year-old Weston Aymer (ph).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I am the co-chair for the Jefferson County Trump campaign.

UNIDENITIFIED MALE: We found him Friday putting the final touches on the Jefferson County field office, opening tomorrow in Wheatridge (ph), a place where volunteers will gather to get out the vote.


HAYES: That`s a real news report, I just want to be clear.

So, one thing we should note, Harry, is that -- you do have a situation in which the state parties are running a lot of the field operation, right? So, it`s not like there`s no one knocking on doors in the state of Georgia, it`s not like there`s no voter contact happening in the state of North Carolina, it`s just not that being done for the campaign, it`s possible the state parties do enough of that they sort of\, you know, can replace it.

ENTEN: Right. There`s a real question of what is the minimal level. Have they reached it? I should point out, of course, Jefferson County I believe is where South Park takes place. So, it feels like this is almost out of South Park, this entire campaign.

But I do wonder whether or not the state parties can do enough. It`s going to be very clear, it`s very clear right now, that the Clinton campaign is just vastly out organizing.

I do believe that the state polls that do show Hillary Clinton doing better than she`s doing nationally may be a reflection of that at this point.

HAYES: Yeah, right. That is the big question. There`s also the fact that we`ve seen now -- you know, they pulled out of Virginia and Colorado. And once you start doing the state math -- and those numbers, one interesting task for me was we are going to see collapse when they pull their ad money out of those two states. So far they haven`t seen it.

WALSH: Right. And it`s only ad money, they haven`t pulled their organizers out.

HAYES: Very good points. Excellent piont.

In fact, Robby Mook was just in Colorado making calls.

WALSH: Right. They`re absolutely still working in those states. But ad buying is drying up.

HAYES: Yeah. And now the question becomes do we see the move of ad money into Arizona and Georgia, which is the sort of like would show the most confident projection?

WALSH: And expanding the map. The things that the Obama team said they were going to do in 2012 didn`t quite do but, you know, four years later.

HAYES: They started to in 2008 with Georgia.

WALSH: Right.

HAYES: They had sort of staffed up Georgia very early on, but had sort of been beaten back in retreat when the polling didn`t materialize.

ENTEN: If they can move in to Arizona -- we know that the senate polling there is relatively close. John McCain is running a little bit ahead. But that could be a state where they put another state another race on the map, especially as Ohio has been shifting away from Ted Strickland. If they can put Arizona on the map, that`s just another way that you can get the 50 seats you need if Hillary clinton wins the presidency.

And obviously if you have the Senate, makes confirming a supreme court justice that much easier.

HAYES: Are we seeing polling -- do we have good metric for tracking what advertising is doing to polling here? Because one thing that occurred to me also is there`s a lot of ads that have been dropped in these key battleground states that maybe those are having a real effect as well, particularly because it`s so one-sided.

WALSH: Already, yeah.

ENTEN: I would say, you know, when you see a state like New Hampshire, which had been much closer before the convention and all of a sudden Hillary Clinton is jumping out to a huge lead there, and Donald Trump in his initial advertising buy isn`t even going into New Hampshire.

This to me is a real sign that this stuff may in fact be working.

HAYES: That`s really interesting.

WALSH: And it is so limited.

HAYES: It is so limited.

And also the ads have been so devastating.

Yes, four states in that first initial buy.

WALSH; That`s not going to work.

HAYES: All right, Joan Walsh, Harry Enten, thanks for joining us, good to have you.

That is ALL IN for this evening.