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All In with Chris Hayes, Transcript, 8/10/2016

Guests: Steve Cortez, Evy Poumpouras, Matt Taibbi, Hari Sevugan, Harry Enten

Show: ALL IN with CHRIS HAYES Date: August 10, 2016 Guest: Steve Cortez, Evy Poumpouras, Matt Taibbi, Hari Sevugan, Harry Enten


CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST (voice-over): Tonight on ALL IN --

RUDY GIULIANI, FORMER NYC MAYOR: With a crowd like that, if that`s what they thought he meant, they`d have gone wild.

HAYES: The Trump spin continues and so do Republican defections.

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: Nothing you can do, folks. Although the Second Amendment people, maybe there is.

HAYES: Tonight, the Trump campaign denying a report it has been contacted by Secret Service, as the fallout to the Second Amendment remarks continues.

And why those remarks, jokes or not, are so dangerous.

Plus, a new look at the increasingly grim electoral map for Trump as the Clinton campaign picks up more Republican endorsements, and sets its sights on another deep red state.

And back to Baltimore.

MAYOR STEPHANIE RAWLINGS-BLAKE, BALTIMORE: The findings are challenging to hear.

HAYES: The jaw-dropping DOJ findings on the Baltimore Police Department, when ALL IN starts right now.


HAYES: Good evening from New York, I`m Chris Hayes.

Today, a brief respite for Donald Trump of all the coverage of his comments about Second Amendment people acting to stop Hillary Clinton. Instead, for a few hours, all eyes were trained on Trump Tower here in Manhattan, where a climber was in the process of scaling the glass face of the building, using suction cups and other equipment.

Police opened up a window lying in the climber`s path and were eventually able to pull him inside to safety. And there he goes. He`s strapped in, folks.

He made it to at least the 16th floor, we believe. That interlude is unlikely to take the heat off Trump for his opaque and incendiary comments yesterday.


HAYES: Hillary wants to abolish -- essentially abolish the Second Amendment. By the way, if she gets to pick -- if she gets to pick her judges, nothing you can do, folks. Although the Second Amendment people, maybe there is, I don`t know. But -- but I`ll tell you what, that will be a horrible day.


HAYES: True to form, Trump and his campaign had refused to apologize or even acknowledge the issue, insisting against the plain semantic logic of the words themselves that those comments were merely a call to political action.


TRUMP: What we`re talking about is political power. There`s tremendous political power to save the Second Amendment. Tremendous. And you look at -- you know, you look at the power they have in terms of votes and that`s what I was referring to. Obviously, that`s what I was referring to.


HAYES: What Trump said was apparently troubling enough to make the Secret Service sit up and take notice. They said they were aware of what Trump had said. Today, according to one report, the agency spoke to the Trump campaign more than once on the topic. The campaign reportedly telling U.S. Secret Service that Trump did not intend to incite violence.

Trump later tweeted that no such meeting or conversation ever happened, calling it a made-up story.

This comes on the same day that Hillary Clinton rushed to protect Hillary Clinton on the stage at a rally in Iowa. Clinton just sort of keeps going with her stump speech, after a protester hopped a barricade.

Now, Donald Trump`s intentions have been at the enter of a fire storm over his comments yesterday. In an interview this morning, Trump surrogate Rudy Giuliani argued the crowd`s reaction proved that what Trump said about Clinton is benign.


GIULIANI: What he intended is very, very simple. What he intended was, they should vote against her.

INTERVIEWER: I guess that`s the question.

GIULIANI: With a crowd like that, if that`s what they thought he meant, they`d have gone wild.


HAYES: They would have gone wild?

Perhaps Giuliani missed the man in the red shirt sitting just over Trump`s shoulder, reacting with a genuinely shocked expression to what Trump had just said.

In an interview today, that same man, North Carolinian Darrell Bickers (ph) described what was going through his mind in the room at that moment.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was thinking exactly what I said to my neighbor, Connie, and that was, I can`t believe he said it. The media will have a field day with this one. Down here in the South, we don`t curse in front of women. We don`t drink liquor in front of the preacher, and we don`t make jokes like that in public. But it was clear to my mind, and the people around me, that he was trying to make a joke.


HAYES: A joke. Not an appeal for gun advocates to get politically motivated, but a joke about taking up arms against representatives of the U.S. government.

That seems to be more or less how Paul Ryan interpreted Trump`s comments, despite, he says, not having seen the tape.


REP. PAUL RYAN (R-WI), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: I`ve been busy today. I heard about this second amendment quote. It sounds like just a joke gone bad. I hope it clears it up quickly. You should never joke about something like that.


HAYES: While the speaker of the house continues to stand by Donald Trump, every day, more Republicans are breaking with their party`s nominee. Florida sitting Congressman Ileana Ros-Lehtinen told the "Miami Herald" she plans to write in Jeb Bush, whom she supported in the primary.

While former Congressman Chris Shays, who supported John Kasich, gave a strong endorsement to Hillary Clinton, joining a growing list of GOP defectors.

It all seems to be taking a toll on Donald Trump, if his appearance in Virginia earlier today is any indication. Though he hit many of his talking points, Trump`s speech seemed much more quieter, more subdued than usual, low energy even, if you will.


TRUMP: What is going on, folks, what is going on with our leaders? And with our leader in particular? He is grossly incompetent.


HAYES: Here`s a thing about what Donald Trump said yesterday. It matters less what he meant and more what people heard. In his column today, "New York Times" columnist Thomas Friedman compares Trump`s Second Amendment comments to the volatile political rhetoric in Israel, leading up to the assassination of Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin in 1995. Quote, "There are always people down the line who don`t hear the caveats. They just hear the big message. The man is illegitimate, the man is a threat to the nation, the man is the equivalent of a Nazi war criminal. Well, you know what we do with people like that, don`t you? We kill them."

Friedman closes with some of the most dramatic language I`ve ever seen in the pages of "The New York Times", "People are playing with fire here, and there`s no bigger flame thrower than Donald Trump. Forget politics, he is a disgusting human being. His children should be ashamed of him."

Joining me now, Trump campaign surrogate, Steve Cortez.

Steve, what`s your -- I have to say, I have an idea for you guys about an explanation of this quote, and it`s killing me you guys aren`t using it. So, first, let me ask you what your spin on this quote is.

STEVE CORTEZ, TRUMP CAMPAIGN SURROGATE: Well, listen, my spin on this quote is, this is much ado about nothing. The media has tried time and again to take anything that Donald Trump says, that is at all pronounced in an inelegant manner and attach the most malicious and most nefarious intent possible to that quote.

What he said was, and it was clear to me, and I think most Americans, what he said was, that Second Amendment people and I`m one of them, I`m a member of the NRA, that largest civil rights organization in America, that Second Amendment people will use their power, not their fire power, their political power --

HAYES: To do what, though?

CORTEZ: -- to try to make sure Hillary Clinton isn`t president, or if she is, she doesn`t destroy the Second Amendment via the Supreme Court.

HAYES: The second one there, Steve, that`s the one you guys got to go with. Here`s the thing, the spin was that he was trying to talk about voting, but it`s very clear here, it doesn`t line up in the timing. "Hillary wants to abolish, essentially abolish the Second Amendment. By the way, if she gets to pick her judges, nothing you can do, folks, period."

At that point in the train of thought, Hillary`s been elected and she`s appointed a judge. He goes on to say, "although the Second Amendment people, maybe there is, I don`t know."

So it can`t be about voting. Can we establish that, in the logic --

CORTEZ: Hold on, Chris, I understand your point. I will concede, as a Trump surrogate I have to come on the air quite often and defend things that are said by my candidate, which again, even though I love him and support him, he`s an outsider, he`s new to this game, he still speaks inelegantly at times or imprecisely.

But, listen, in this case, I`m going to defend him to the wall, because what it means is, even if she`s president, we still may -- meaning Republicans -- may very well control the Senate. She doesn`t just appoint Supreme Court justices by fiat.

HAYES: That`s right.

CORTEZ: They have to be approved by the Senate.

HAYES: Yes, yes!

CORTEZ: And NRA and Second Amendment people like me can then fight against those justices.

HAYES: You should have written the initial statement the Trump campaign put out, because that`s not what they said. They said it was about voting, even though it`s not what it was about.

CORTEZ: Let me recommend that to my bosses at Trump Tower, please.

HAYES: This is the thing you just said, you get called out to do this quite often. Have you ever had someone with a bad roommate and then nine bad roommates and at the end of it, you think maybe you`re the bad roommate. If you`re a person who is constantly misinterpreted and misunderstood, maybe there`s something wrong with how you`re communicating. Is that a plausible theory of the case?

CORTEZ: No, listen, I hear your point, but I`m going to reject it on this basis. I think right now, what we see in the mainstream media, is the elites that occupy newsrooms of New York and Washington, D.C. don`t understand at all what is going on --

HAYES: They don`t understand the real talk of a billionaire real estate mogul is what you`re saying.

CORTEZ: They don`t understand the flyover country --

HAYES: Like Donald Trump does.

CORTEZ: Isn`t it ironic that a New York billionaire is the one who resonates so well with regular Americans?

But in flyover country, between Brooklyn and Brentwood is a massive country that is political misunderstood by political elites and by media elites. And because of that, they`re incredibly -- sometimes we smear what we fear. They fear a popular uprising, via the ballot box, again not via fire power.

HAYES: I think people do fear the use of arms to circumvent politics.

Let me ask you one final question. NBC News poll had 72 percent of registered Republicans, they doubt President Obama`s citizenship. What`s your feeling about that?

CORTEZ: Well, I think that`s ridiculous. That`s a non-sense diversion. We don`t need to pay attention to that.

HAYES: His citizenship is settled?

CORTEZ: He`s an American, OK? Let`s focus on his record, though.

HAYES: We`re making so much progress here. Thank you very much. I`m going to quit while we`re ahead.

Steve Cortez, thank you for your time tonight. Appreciate it.

CORTEZ: Thank you, sir.

HAYES: Joining me now, Evy Poumpouras, security analyst, former special agent for the U.S. Secret Service.

All right. So you worked in the Secret Service 13 years, if I`m not mistaken.


HAYES: You know, sure, like any statement, you could go back and retroactively interpret it. What`s your read on this as someone who worked in the Secret Service?

POUMPOURAS: I think the big issue here is whether he meant it or not meant it, words do matter. So, when you have that platform, you have to be careful what you say to people. And it`s also how are other people going to interpret it? That`s the issue.

So he may say, I didn`t mean that and that may be true, but the person listening to you, that audience, what are they interpreting? Everyone`s split. I mean, everyone`s debating this, did he mean one thing, right, he meant go ahead and do harm to Hillary. And other people are saying, no, no, he didn`t mean that. So, what would a person believe it be?

And then the other thing we have to look at is, we`re thinking about people who have logically, who don`t have mental health issues. A lot of the threats against VIPs or protectees, they would come from people who has serious mental issues or an emotionally disturbed person. So, how is that person going to interpret that?

HAYES: See, this is the thing. I think this is key point, right? It`s like, what signals are you spending? You can even imagine a benign statement like, folks, you got to take care of her, someone`s got to do something. You could say, wow, you got to vote, you got to write -- there`s ways in which the meaning in that room in particular.

Here`s a snapshot of what the atmosphere in these rallies is like courtesy of "The New York Times." Take a listen.


HAYES: That was folks saying "killer," hang the -- B word. It seems to me, from the perspective of being employed to guarantee her safety in life, that context matters.

POUMPOURAS: It absolutely does matter because you`re looking at this -- look at the gatherings that we`re having. Look at all the violence that`s breaking out. This is one of the most violent, you know, presidential candidacies we`ve ever seen.

So, now, we`re worried about her safety. I promise you -- like I can almost guarantee that we`re willing to see a spike somewhat, I don`t know how big, but you will see some type of shift in threats that are going towards Hillary at this point.

HAYES: You think so?

POUMPOURAS: I would think so, because when you say that to people and you`re on that level, and I`m not picking political sides, I`m speaking from strategically a security objective standpoint.

When you make these comments, people are going to hear them and it`s as if they`re giving them permission to do that. You don`t know how they`re going to interpret it. This is dangerous. It creates volatility, you`re going to have some people come out, but the Secret Service is probably going to be dealing with a lot more threats, or people with special interests, that`s what they would call them, towards Hillary.

HAYES: What`s protocol? Do you think Secret Service had a conversation with him? Conversation he`s got a detail. Just his own detail to talking to him? Like that sort of thing happen?

POUMPOURAS: Yes, it does happen. They may not feel comfortable to say anything, which I can understand, because they really want to stay out of the politics. Their job is security. They don`t want to influence one way or another, but you can almost be sure that internally, they`re having discussions. They may not have spoken to him directly, but talked to his staff and his people. That`s why --

HAYES: Because those conversations are happening anyway because of the logistics of what they have to do.

POUMPOURAS: They`re with him all the time. His security details, I mean, they`re -- you`re traveling with him. You`re going from state to state to state. I mean, you`re with these people, you understand their intentions.

He doesn`t mean specific threat more than likely, he did, we would know about it. But there definitely having those discussions, hey, he needs to be careful, he can`t make those comments.

HAYES: Right. Evy Poumpouras, thank you very much.

POUMPOURAS: Thank you.

HAYES: I`m joined by "Rolling Stones" Matt Taibbi, who has been covering the campaign, writing about the Trump phenomenon.

The context is here is just what Evy was talking about. To me, it`s just like -- how much precedent there`s been in sort of winking and nudging and all of this stuff with David Duke, like, I don`t know who David Duke is. There`s this constant semantic, sort of three-card Monty he`s playing, always.


HAYES: Like, oh, you saw this, I didn`t mean that. But time and time again, it feels like it`s not just an accident.

TAIBBI: Yes, I think any reporter who`s covered Trump a lot over the last year will tell you this is a pretty tried and true rhetorical device that he resorts to quite a lot. There`s a professor down in Texas A&M, I think her name is Jennifer Merkicia (ph) who talked about a trope that he uses which is parellipsis, which is bringing something up by not bringing it up. Like, I`m not saying, but I`m saying, you know?

HAYES: Right.

TAIBBI: And he does that over and over again. I`ve seen it many times. I think one of the more famous instances was the incident where somebody called Ted Cruz the P-word, remember that in New Hampshire? He said, oh, that`s terrible.

HAYES: Oh, that`s terrible. He said, say that again, and then had the person say it. And he walked and he sort of jokingly walked away from the microphone, like, oh, you.

TAIBBI: Right. But this is part of his character. I mean, he`s playing a reality TV show character and this is part of what his role does. And it`s kind of worked for him before.

It`s allowed him to get certain messaging out there in the media without taking direct ownership of them. This was a particularly irresponsible use of that particular rhetorical device, and it`s a real line that he`s crossed that he may not even have been aware of.

HAYES: That`s exactly it. It`s interesting, the campaign I think understood the line. It was a bad, irresponsible joke.

TAIBBI: Right.

HAYES: Also a slander at Second Amendment people. Like you guys are all crazy nuts -- it`s a weird thing to say if you actually believe the Second Amendment people are peaceful, law abiding --

TAIBBI: Yes, not only that. It`s catastrophically stupid politics. You know, had he not made those comments, think about what the lead news story would be today. It pains me to say that Rudy Giuliani is right in the last segment, but the Clinton Foundation story would be the lead story today --


TAIBBI: -- because it`s a real story and it`s going to be drowned out by the Second Amendment story for the next couple days, because it`s just so inflammatory and so explosive.

HAYES: Yes, I think also, the other thing I think about, how common -- like we`ve had over the course of American history, it`s been a very violent country and politics have been very violent.

TAIBBI: Of course.

HAYES: I mean, 10 percent of presidents, I think, have been assassinated or nearly assassinated, right, of the ones we`ve had. We`ve seen the political violence in this country. So, there`s always this -- so you always feel this ominous thing offstage, sometimes not offstage. In this campaign, particularly around Trump rallies, and that`s the other context to me that sort of gave this its --

TAIBBI: Sure, again, as someone who`s covered a lot of campaigns over the years, I`ve felt this more and more as campaigns have gone on in recent years. You know, any group of people, in any crowd, there are always going to be mentally ill people. But in any group of Americans, there`s also going to be a sizeable percentage of people who are just dumb and --

HAYES: Well, of all human beings.

TAIBBI: But you mix that in with anger and resentment and this growing sense of powerlessness --

HAYES: And the room feeling.

TAIBBI: Right.

HAYES: I mean, that was the thing that struck me so much on the night when Chris Christie gave his speech at the RNC, the "lock her up," guilty, guilty. It felt like you were in a witch trial. You could feel the crowd surging with the energy of that unified contempt.

TAIBBI: Right. And, you know, think about what the message of Donald Trump`s campaign is. Your leaders in both parties have not been advocating for you. This is the only way you can get something done.

HAYES: They stab you in the back.

TAIBBI: Right. And now I may lose, so you must act alone. And that`s a powerful message.

HAYES: That`s terrifying.

Thank you, Matt Taibbi. We appreciate it.

Coming up, Hillary Clinton is making a play for a state Democrats haven`t won since 1964. She`s invoking Mitt Romney`s words to help her do so.

But first, Donald Trump says he`s a straight shooter, so why is he always clarifying his past statements. Take a tour through his most convoluted and false explanations next.


HAYES: Tonight, we find yourself yet again litigating the meaning of Donald Trump`s words after the presidential nominee said something shocking and offensive. For someone who suggested that President Obama should be disqualified from office for not using the right words, like this tweet from June. "Is President Obama going to finally mention the words radical Islamic terrorism? If he doesn`t, he should immediately resign in disgrace."

Trump, quite often, claims he`s been misunderstood. The pattern tends to go like this. Trump will say something wildly inappropriate, or even unconscionable, reactions, headlines follow. Trump will argue, no, no, that`s not what he meant.

When he accused FOX News anchor Megyn Kelly last summer of having, quote, "blood coming out of her wherever," a comment widely seen as a crude reference to menstruation, Trump replied, quote, "only a deviant would think that."

After he mocked a disabled reporter in November, something for which he was roundly criticized, including in recent Clinton ad, Trump says he was only imitating a reporter groveling.

After Trump told my colleague that women who have abortions should be punished, women who have abortion should be punished, he later said it`s the doctors who provide the abortion should be punished.

Or take a few weeks ago when he looks right into the camera and called on Russia to find and hack Hillary Clinton`s e-mail.


TRUMP: Russia, if you`re listening, I hope you`re able to find the 30,000 e-mails that are missing. I think you will probably be rewarded mightily by our press.


HAYES: Following swift bipartisan backlash over those comments and accusations of flirtations with treason for inviting a foreign government to hack secretary of state`s e-mails, Trump said he was being sarcastic and was questioning whether Russia had already hacked her e-mail.

I could go on and on and on with examples with Trump denying something he explicitly said, or saying his words were misinterpreted. But here`s the thing, a big part of the job as president is to communicate effectively, and even if you give him the benefit of the doubt on every occasion, he`s certainly failing that test.

Joining me now, Josh Barro, MSNBC contributor, senior editor of "Business Insider", who`s most recent piece about Donald Trump is called, "It doesn`t matter what Trump meant, it matters what he said."

What do you mean by that, Josh?

JOSH BARRO, MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR: Well, so I was sitting down to write, and I say this in the lead, this story, like all of these is exhausting.

HAYES: Because you feel like we`re fighting over sentence structure.

BARRO: That and ultimately you`re fighting over what`s inside Donald Trump`s head. You can never prove what he was thinking.

You can make strong arguments that we should really believe this was probably he was thinking, but if he says, "I didn`t mean that," you can never prove he was wrong. But it doesn`t matter. That`s why it`s so silly, all this sentence diagramming and trying to figure out, well, if there was a comma, then it means this different thing.

So long as he is being unclear and inflammatory to so many people, that is disqualifying for the job for the presidency. And what we would see if he was actually president and the interactions he would be having, they would move the stock market, they would cause foreign troops to move, it would break up alliances that we have.

You know, if he`s like, oh, I was just misunderstood, that`s going to be a lot more costly then than it was now he was pretending to be a real estate developer.

HAYES: You know, you see -- it`s funny, you see Barack Obama sometimes do this thing that can be maddening, when he pauses and hums and ahhs. Take a look at what I mean. Here`s an example of what I mean.


BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Yes, I think the Republican nominee is unfit, to serve as president. I said so last week and, um, he keeps on proving it. The notion that he would attack a Gold Star family, that had made such extraordinary sacrifices on behalf of our country, the fact that he doesn`t appear to have basic knowledge around critical issues in Europe, in the Middle East, in Asia means that he`s woefully unprepared to do this job.


HAYES: Now, as a sound bite, that`s somewhat arduous, because you can see him buffering.


HAYES: But that`s the point of being president. You can`t just say like you have to be very careful in everything you say.

BARRO: Well, and he knows that if he misspeaks, he can throw off a news cycle or much more than that. I mean, one good example, earlier in his presidency when the Harvard Professor Henry Louis Gates got arrested --

HAYES: Wrongly in his house.

BARRO: Right. And the president said off the cuff that the police officer who arrested him had acted stupidly, which I think was a valid assessment, but was probably not the assessment he wanted to issue at the time. Ended up having to have the police officer to the White House for a beer summit - -


BARRO: Right, to clean up the mess that he had made. That`s a small consequence. Like, if you`re talking about some interaction with Russia, rather than the Cambridge, Massachusetts Police Department, you can have a much bigger consequence from misspeaking.

One good thing that I hope might come out of this campaign, the controversies that Donald Trump has created that are so outrageous might recalibrate our outrage meter about some other controversies that you freak out about, like the acted stupidly thing, Mitt Romney saying, I like being able to fire people. President Obama saying, you didn`t build that.

It almost looks quaint these things we used to get outrage about, and maybe in the future, we`ll remember what a really outrageous politician looks like.

HAYES: Interesting. Josh Barro, thanks for joining us.

BARRO: Sure.

HAYES: That`s Donald Trump right there ascending to the podium in Ft. Lauderdale.

Coming up, the Department of Justice finds rampant racism throughout the Baltimore Police Department. The stunning -- and I mean stunning details from that new report, ahead.


HAYES: Based on modern electoral history, there are not too many conceivable scenarios in which a Democratic presidential candidate would win Utah. That`s probably still the case here, but the fact that it`s even being discussed is very telling. "New York Times" headline, "Mormons` Distaste for Donald Trump Puts Utah Up for Grabs", Mormons` distaste for Trump is so great that Ted Cruz crushed him, the caucus there. Trump came in third behind Kasich.

Now, if those voters don`t want to choose Trump in the general election, they might pick libertarian Gary Johnson, or Evan McMullin, the Mormon who is now making an independent bid.

But in op-ed in a local publication, Clinton began making her pitch for those voters. It reads in parts, "Trump`s Muslim ban would undo centuries of American traditions and values. But you don`t have to take it from me. Listen to Mitt Romney who said Trump fired before aiming when he decided a blanket religious ban was a solution to the threat of terrorism."|

Utah or no Utah, the battleground map keeps expanding, as Clinton`s national lead grows. Getting inside those numbers, ahead.



VANITA GUPTA, DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE: These violations have deeply eroded the mutual trust between BPD and the community it serves, trust that is essential to effective policing as well as to officer and public safety.

The problems in Baltimore didn`t happen overnight or appear in a day. The pattern or practice that we found results from long-standing, systemic deficiencies in the BPD.


HAYES: The Department of Justice issued a blistering new report today, detailing systemic racial bias in the Baltimore police department, saying the police have lost the trust of the very community they are charged with protecting, because of a history of persistent racial discrimination in how the law is enforced and how citizens are treated.

Civil rights investigation was launched over a year ago at the request of Baltimore City officials, following the unrest and community outrage over the death of Baltimore resident Freddie Gray in police custody.

It examined more than six years of records and concluded the Baltimore police made unconstitutional stops and arrested, used excessive force and discriminated against people of color.

In Baltimore, a city that is city that is 63 percent black, the Justice Department found that 91 percent of those arrested for discretionary offenses like failure to obey or trespassing were African-American.

We explored these kinds of discrepancies in policing in our Emmy nominated special back to Baltimore, where resident after resident told us the decades of these kinds of police practices in the city have lead to a complete erosion of trust between the community and the police.

The report from the Justice Department details some of the disparities. One African-American man in his mid-50s was stopped 30 times in less than four years. During -- despite those repeated intrustions, none of the 30 stops resulted in a citation or a criminal charge.

Another example shows a supervisor encouraging an officer to make a groundless stop during a ride along with Justice Department officials, a BPD sergeant instructed a patrol officer to stop a group of young African- American males on a street corner, questioned them and ordered them to disperse.

When the patrol officer protested he had no valid reason to stop the group, the replied, then make something up.

Let me stress, this was done with a DOJ investigator in the car.

That incident the Justice Department found, was not atypical.

Another BPD sergeant posted on Facebook he would encourage his officers to clear corners, a tactic used to disperse people standing on sidewalks by threatening arrest for minor offenses like loitering. That sergeant writing, and perhaps summarizing the entire problem with American policing, do not treat criminals like citizens. Citizens want that corner cleared.

Joining me now, MSNBC national correspondent Trymaine Lee who has been pouring over this report. This is really -- I really urge everyone to read this whole thing, if you can make have an hour of time, it is a shocking document.

TRYMAINE LEE, MSNBC NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: In so many ways it seems like deja vu all over again. We`ve seen the report out of Ferguson. We`ve seen it in Cleveland, in Philadelphia before. Now, we`ll probably find the same thing from the investigation right now in Chicago.

But in so many ways, it still manages to shock us. We talk about a template that supervisors give out to some of their police officers for trespassing where black males is already filled out.

HAYES: That`s the default? You have to go in an alter it and change it from black male.

LEE: That`s the default. The presumption is that it will be a black man, because it will be a black male.

In other cases where they use excessive strip searches in public. In one of these cases listed in the DOJ report a woman was pulled over for a missing headline ends up getting an anal cavity search. Nothing is found.

When you wonder why...

HAYES: For a headlight.

LEE: For a headlight. She ends up naked in public, getting her anal cavity searched.

City by city, we wonder why the gap in trust is so wide, when on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday night this happens, and on Saturday night, you want some cooperation and some help.

HAYES: And one of the really fascinating -- I mean, I could talk about this for an hour. I`m writing a book now on this very topic, right. And one of -- the flip side of this, right, these are people that protect folks, right?

The sex crimes unit has one of the lowest clearance rates in the country. I think it was 16 percent. And you have got a report of a sex crimes investigator saying homicide crimes have real victims. We don`t have real victims in our crimes.

You have police officers sayingto a survivor of sexual assault are you sure you want to mess up the guy`s life. These are the police who are supposed to protect people and prosecute crimes.

LEE: But that`s also -- and this speaks to their engagement with the public and the community.

But even internally, per this report, that even when good cops, we always want the good cops to say something, step up and identify a bad cop who planted drugs on a suspect, or who had some other complaint about the officers, they were persecuted internally. Basically...

HAYES: Punished?

LEE: Punished. So it`s amazing.

But it speaks volumes to the state that we`re in now. And we wonder why the gap is so wide.

HAYES: You also see, you know, this is one of the problems also. And we`re seeing it in this report in Baltimore, the complaint system. Does the complaint system work. So, here is an example about racial slurs.

In approximately six years of complaint data we received from BPD, we found only one complaint that BPD classified as a racial slur.

So they say in six years, BPD at least says there was one complaint of a racial slur. This is implausible. Buy manually reviewing and performing text searches on BPD`s cmoplaint data, we found 60 more complaints that alleged a BPD officers use just one racial slur, the N-word, but all these complaints were mis-classified a lesser offense.

You have got cops out there dropping that word and not even ending up in the database that says they did it.

LEE: Speaking of complaints, there is officer currently employed by the Baltimore Police Department, 120 complaints. He`s still working.

The state`s attorney used to have a list of officers they said we cannot bring these people to court for...

HAYES: They had a do not call, list, the state`s attorney, because they could not be confident that they would not perjure themselves on the stand.

LEE: Right.

HAYES: The BPD. And in fact at one point there was an entire unit that was placed on the state`s attorney`s own do not call list, meaning everyone there was an entire unit cannot be trusted to take an oath and testify truthfully.

LEE: But that lack of confidence never translated to any disciplinary action internally. Supervisors, it seemed, completely lost their way in terms of the department and let folks run rough shod.

HAYES: I keep being haunted by this -- do not treat criminals like citizens, because that to me is -- you see department after department -- you and I work together in Ferguson. We were also together in Baltimore where the police have made up their minds, there`s two groups. And there`s one that`s deserving of the protections of the U.S. Constitution and there`s another that are undeserving of the protections of the U.S. Constitution. and nothing more perfectly articulates that vision than do not treat criminals like citizens.

Trymaine Lee, thanks a lot.

LEE: Thank you.

HAYES: Coming up, Donald Trump likes to talk how he`s winning all the time, but he is actually in fourth place. I`ll explain.

Plus, the oddest story of the campaign in the last 24 hours ahead.



TRUMP: We`re gonna win in every way. We`re gonna win so much that the people of New Hampshire are going to get absolutely sick and tired of winning.

President Trump, please stop winning, sir.


HAYES: Thing one tonight, Donald Trump loves to say he`s winning, that he wins so much, an entire night of the convention was devoted to make America first again.

But an interesting stat popped up this week when it comes to TV ad spending, Trump is not only trailing Hillary Clinton, he`s behind, get this, both major third-party candidates. Trump is currently fourth behind Clinton, Green Party Candidate Jill Stein, and Libertarian Gary Johnson. His campaign has yet to spend a single cent on ads.

Now, you can chalk that up to a strategic choice, something the Trump campaign has the power to change as they raise money. But you can`t say the same about poll numbers. We`ll show you where Trump is polling in fourth place, in just 60 seconds.


HAYES: Thing two tonight, it was a bit surprising to see this week that Donald Trump is spending less money to TV ads than Green Party candidate Jill Stein and Libertarian Gary Johnson.

But ad spending isn`t the only place where Trump is finishing fourth. A recent national poll by McClatchy and Marist shows that among Millennial voters, those under 30, Trump trails Clinton, Gary Johnson, and Jill Stein with just 9 percent support.

Now, this was just a sub-sample from the poll, meaning it has a relatively high margin of error, but it`s one of several polls showing Trump struggling with young voters. In a Fox poll last week, Trump edged out Gary Johnson by just 4 points among voters under 35, losing to Clinton by 27 points.

And among young voters in our latest NBC News SurveyMonkey poll, Trump holds a six point lead on Johnson and trails Clinton by 21.

But there`s another truly head snapping new stat out this week, Trump`s support among African -American voters. As the website 538 pointed out, Donald Trump is in fourth place among black voters nationally, behind Clinton, Johnson and Stein with just 2 percent support.

And this is not one poll, this is the average of four different national, live interview polls taken since the conventions.

And as a self-proclaimed winner, Trump should no there are no points for fourth place.


HAYES: All right, hands down, the oddest story the campaign yesterday was about the father of the Orlando Pulse nightclub shooter, sitting right behind Hillary Clinton at her rally in Kissimmee, Florida, while she was talking about the shooting. Afterwards, a reporter for NBC affiliate WPTV asked him why he was there.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was invited by Democratic Party.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just like, come support Hillary, just a regular chain email, or a personal invitation?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So it came out -- I`m a member, so as a member, I get the invitations, so it`s nothing particular about it.

It`s the Democratic Party, so everybody can join.


HAYES: So basically it looks like he got one of those emails to a huge list, saying, oh, there`s a Hillary Clinton rally.

And of course, Trump`s supporters have been making an issue of the father`s presence at the rally.


RUDY GIULIANI, FRM. MAYOR OF NEW YORK CITY: The guy behind Hillary Clinton who is the father of a person who killed 49 people, who wounded 53 people, ends up being invited to sit in a prime position behind Hillary Clinton. What`s drawing him to Hillary Clinton? People should ask that question. What brings him to Hillary Clinton?

I believe it`s her soft stance on Islamic extremist terrorism.


HAYES: OK. There`s a lot going on there. But the ultimate thing, this is about optics, which is really a word that only pundits and politicals use, but that best describes the what it`s like to see the father of a mass murderer sitting behind the democratic presidential nominee as she`s speaking 30 minutes from the Pulse nightclub, while she`s talking about the shooting there.

It is undeniably weird. But substantively, what is the objection to him being there, other than the, quote, optics? Should the Clinton campaign have stopped him from coming to the event? How would they even know who he was? I mean, after all, he is also not responsible for what his son did. He has disavowed it in quite strenuous terms. Should the campaign have sat him somewhere else so it didn`t look weird?

There`s no actual moral reason for them to have to do that. If you`re going to find an issuewith this, it`s that the guy, independent of his son, has all sorts of seemingly pretty batty views that can be found on his YouTube channel, including at one point apparent support for the Taliban, which probably is why several hours into the news cycle the Clinton campaign, after first not responding to it, told the reporter for the NBC affiliate who interviewed the father this rally was a 3,000-person open- door event for the public. The individual wasn`t invited as a guest and the campaign was unaware of his attendance until after the event.

The campaign also said, Hillary Clinton disagrees with his views and disavows his support.

Still ahead, one of the best ways of illustrating just how significant Clinton`s lead has become, I`ll show it to you next.


HAYES: There are many ways of illustrating just how significant Clinton`s lead has become, as the polling gap between Clinton and Trump gets bigger, the battleground map expands. Right now, Clinton is leading in polling averages nine of these ten battleground states, far more than she would actually need to get to 270 electoral votes.

Notice that right now Clinton has a slim lead in Georgia, which we never talk about as a toss-up state, but which is today by virtue of Clinton`s lead there, Trump is only .3 percent ahead in Arizona, which hasn`t been won by a Democrat since 1996, which is Bill Clinton`s reelection. Wisconsin isn`t on that battleground map right now. It`s a state where Trump might have hoped to make inroads of white working class voters, but Clinton is ahead by 15 points in the latest poll.

And yet another way to illustrate the yawning gap between Clinton and Trump, is to look at 538`s daily forecast, as many people obsessively do, which puts Clinton`s chances of winning the election at 75 percent.

Joining me now, Harry Enton, senior political editor and analst at 538 and Hari Sevugan. He`s the former senior spokesman for the 2008 Obama campaign and a principal for 270 strategies, a political consulting firm named after what it takes to win a presidential election.

Now, Harry, let me start with you in Chicago. What are the -- as you look at this, as a veteran of the Obama campaigns, what strikes -- what jumps out to you about the map, particularly as compared to `08 or 2012?

HARI SEVUGAN, FRM. SPOKESMAN OBAMA CAMPAIGN: Yeah, you know, if you`re looking at the states that you think you have in your pocket, in the last six elections, there have been 19 states that have been voted democratic, and you start as a Democrat with 242 electoral votes. That was the same case in 2008, when we were looking at the map.

So we were pretty close. We had 28 states to go to get there. And there were a couple states that were very close in 2008. Iowa was 10,000 votes, that was the raw vote difference. New Mexico, was 588 raw votes.


SEVUGAN: So we were targeting those states right away. Just with those states, you get very, very close. And then you pick up one or two other states.

What i see in the new map in 2016 is consolidation of those 19 states, and actually, we`ve consolidated a couple states we`ve picked up in 2008 -- Colorado and Virginia, where we`re not even advertising anymore.

HAYES: Yeah, that to me, Hari, seems like the sort of first order, biggest story, when you`re looking at the sort of long-term structural trends, right. Because what`s untenable increasingly for Republicans is exactly the map that Hari said, which is what do you start out with on each side, right?


HAYES: And, you know, let`s say those 19 -- and we can talk about Pennsylvania in a moment, which is among those 19.

ENTEN: Right.

HAYES: But the idea of Colorado and Virginia now having moved into this reliably, count-on-able category of a Democratic victories is a big deal for the map.

ENTEN: I mean, it`s a huge deal, because it basically cuts off the GOP path, that you have to go through this very thin sort of thing that`s going on, it`s almost like trying to climb Trump Tower, if I was to try and do it.

And, you know, if you just look at it, it basically means if you`re a Democrat, you don`t need states like Florida or Ohio or Iowa, or Nevada. You don`t need those states in order to win the presidential election.

HAYES: Let`s talk about that, the Florida and Ohio thing. So, Hillary Clinton, because of the way things work, if you give her Colorado and you give her Virginia, and give her New Hampshire where right now she`s up by 15 points, she can still get -- there you can see 273. That`s a version of a map, of Hillary Clinton becoming the president in which she loses both Ohio and Florida.

ENTEN: Right. And this is just amazing, right? These are the states that, you know...

HAYES: For years, we sort of had to acclimate ourselves...

ENTEN: It was Florida and Ohio.

But all of a sudden, because of Hillary Clinton`s strength with white voters with a college degree, you`ve taken Virginia and Colorado off the board. Tim Kaine is probably adding points in Virginia, and it just makes the path for Donald Trump -- how is he supposed to win with that map already being the way it is?

HAYES: Now, Hari, one thing that`s on that map that is clear is Pennsylvania. And that`s in that -- that this is the kind of classic Republican fool`s gold. Every year, they say they`re going to win it. Mitt Romney had a -- didn`t he have a -- didn`t the last day of the election he had a -- I think he had a rally in Pennsylvania.

Right now, the polling average shows it`s fairly safely in Clinton`s corner, but there are -- Pennsylvania is in a different place demographically than places like Virginia and Colorado, which are on a kind of glide path towards being more Democratic. That is not true of Pennsylvania.

SEVUGAN: Yeah, but you know what, the thing I would say about Pennsylvania, where it`s really creeping closer and closer into a very, very safe state is Trump is turning off suburban voters, right. So, like, if you look at the Franklin and Marshall poll from last week in Pennsylvania, in southeast -- in the southeast counties outside of Philadelphia, which is suburban Philadelphia, Hillary Clinton has a 40 point lead.

Barack Obama won those counties by nine points. So the demographics there are a little different than other states, but he`s turning off every demographic of voter, including the ones he would need to win in Pennsylvania.

HAYES: This is a key point, right, because there`s a difference between what Trump`s coalition looks at the low water mark and the high water mark. So, right now is is a sort of low-water mark. And to Hari`s point, he -- there are places -- lots of places he`s underperforming Mitt Romney among white voters. You certainly can`t win that way.

ENTEN: No, you can`t win that way. Look, if you`re going to turn off and only get 2 percent of black voters, right, and then you have these polls with Hispanic voters, right. And then you have these polls of Hispanic voters, you know, these large samples which have him maybe winning 15 percent, you need to be able to win white voters and win them by a large margin. And the fact is he`s not doing that and he really hasn`t been doing this the entire year.

Maybe that slight bump after the Republican National Convention, but for the most part, all of the evidence that we have suggests that he has a ceiling at this point of around 40 percent of the vote. And guess what, unless Gary Johnson decides to turn into Ross Perot, you`re not going to win this election 40 percent of the vote.

HAYES: Now, you guys been running these models wherey ou show sort of battleground maps based on what that gap is on the national level. So, say it`s ten points. At ten points, even stuff like South Carolina and Texas start to enter the plausible picture. Why is that? Is it just demographic makeup?

ENTEN: Well, it`s just because, you know, if you`re going to have a ten- point national swing, right, then all of a sudden it`s going to be that the states make up the union, right. You`re not going to have all of a sudden Barack Obama, you know, you have Hillary Clinton improving on Barack Obama`s performance by so much in New York. It has to be across the board. And a state like South Carolina is a potential place for that.

HAYES: Hari, what would you say -- let`s say the Republicans have nominated the best possible candidate, all right? Some sort of laboratory, amalgam of various Republicans. He`s young and he can reach out to all kinds of voters. What`s the Democratic state, you think, is the most tenuous of those 19?

SEVUGAN: Of the 19? I mean, you look at traditional states like Wisconsin or Michigan, where you know, there is a lot of angst. There is a stronger feeling about the direction of the country where I think voters could peel off and look for just a different direction, not necessarily having anything to do with the candidate.

But I would look there.

But you know the other thing, Chris, that`s interesting here is, the Democratic campaign here, Hillary Clinton is going on offense. We`re expanding beyond those 19, right. So we`re looking at Georgia now.

HAYES: Yeah.

SEVUGAN: And Arizona. And you know I don`t think South Carolina and Texas are necessarily are going to come into play. But Georgia is three out of the last five polls Hillary is either tied or in the lead.

HAYES: Yeah, the Georgia story is really crazy and would really be pretty seismic in terms of electoral map. Harry and Hari Sevugan, thank you very much. That is ALL IN for now.