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All In With Chris Hayes, Transcript 5/9/2016

Guests: Jennifer Granholm, Sherrod Brown, Michael Moore, Chase Strangio, Julie Fernandes

Show: ALL IN with CHRIS HAYES Date: May 9, 2016 Guest: Jennifer Granholm, Sherrod Brown, Michael Moore, Chase Strangio, Julie Fernandes


CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST (voice-over): Tonight on ALL IN --

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I mean, all of the men, we`re petrified to speak to women anymore.

HAYES: The war on women begins.

TRUMP: Everything is about women and Donald Trump raised his voice.

HAYES: But Donald Trump going to Hillary by way of her spouse.

TRUMP: There is nobody that was worse, nobody, than Bill Clinton with women.

HAYES: The presumptive Republican nominee goes ugly early. And tonight, Hillary Clinton responds.

And then, Michael Moore on whether or not the Republican civil war is good for Democrats.

Donald Trump caught negotiating with himself on raising taxes.

TRUMP: To the wealthy, I think frankly, it`s going to go up.

HAYES: And the Department of Justice officially goes in on North Carolina.

LORETTA LYNCH, ATTORNEY GENERAL: State sanctioned discrimination never looks good and never works in hindsight.

HAYES: When ALL IN starts right now.


HAYES: Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes.

Having all but secured the nomination of a party that struggled for years to engage and win over women voters, especially in presidential election years, Donald Trump spent his first weekend as the GOP`s presumptive nominee leaning in, for lack of a better term, to the war of women.

One women in particular, like any with a long career in public life, Hillary Clinton has an extensive record with plenty of material for possible substantive criticism. But that does not appear to be Trump`s approach. Instead, he`s making (ph) his attacks on Clinton`s gender arguing that she is effectively an affirmative action case, a woman who had never reached these heights if her gender hadn`t provided a leg up.


TRUMP: She`s playing the women`s card. By the way, if she didn`t play the women`s card, she would have no chance, I mean zero, of winning.


HAYES: On top of that, Trump insists Clinton should be held liable for her husband`s behavior towards women, calling her enabler and floating unproven theories about her own conduct.


TRUMP: There is nobody that was worse, nobody, than Bill Clinton with women, OK? Nobody. In the history of politics, Hillary Clinton`s husband abused women more than any man that we know of in the history of politics, right?

She`s married to a man who hurt many women. Hillary, if you look, Hillary hurt many women, the women he abused.

I mean, here`s a guy, he was impeached because he lied. He lied. You remember the famous, "I did not have sex with that woman", and then, a couple of months later, "I`m guilty." And she`s taken negative ads on me!


HAYES: Trump even veered towards men`s rights activist territory, accusing Clinton of using political correctness to muzzle men`s point of view.


TRUMP: She`s playing the women`s card, she`s going, did you hear that Donald Trump raised his voice while speaking to a woman? Oh, I`m sorry. I`m sorry.

I mean, all of the men, we`re petrified to speak to women anymore. We may raise our voice. You know what? The women get it better than we do, folks.


HAYES: This appears to be part of an actual strategy, possible? Maybe, I don`t know. But it`s not just the candidate lashing out. Here`s why we know that. Ask about Trump`s rhetoric yesterday, the guy supposed to be making him more presidential for the general election, top aide, Paul Manafort, defended his boss` approach.


PAUL MANAFORT, TRUMP CAMPAIGN: The history is clear. She`s been an enabler in the past. I let him speak to those issues.

But the point is, he made it very clear he was not going to let hypocrisy exist on the women`s issue. He is not anti-women. He`s very pro-women. He`s proven it in his business life and proven it more so than her, because he`s proven it with actions not words.

And so, for her to go after him on being anti-women, he`s going to go back and talk about some of the things that she did that are less consistent as far as being pro-women.


HAYES: On the campaign trail, Hillary Clinton was asked for her reaction to Trump`s personal attacks.


HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I`m gong to let him run his campaign however he chooses. I`m going to run my campaign, which is about a positive vision for our country.

REPORTER: So, you`re responding with substance?

CLINTON: I`m running my campaign. I`m not running against him. He`s doing a fine job doing that himself.


HAYES: It`s unclear how long Trump will stick with this line of attack as his main argument against Hillary Clinton, or even how much it will affect results next fall.

One thing is clear, this kind of rhetoric worsens most likely what was already a serious branding problem for the GOP. Democrats haven`t lost a women`s vote in a presidential election since 1988 and they moved to press that advantage over high profile battles over substantive issues like reproductive rights and women`s health access, labeling the Republican agenda, a quote, "war on women", with an assist from likes of Rush Limbaugh and failed Senate candidate Richard Murdoch and Todd "legitimate rape" Akin.

The reaction from many Republicans, frustration and indignation of what they insist is a false narrative created solely and cynically for political gain.


SEN. MARCO RUBIO (R), FLORIDA: We have a president that says that if you`re pro-life, you`re waging a war on women.

SEN. TED CRUZ (R), TEXAS: Democrats spent a lot of time trying to concoct a war on women.

BILL O`REILLY, FOX NEWS HOST: The war on women I agree is contrived totally. I don`t think there is a war on women.

MITT ROMNEY (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The Democrats, I think, in agency in of the anger of women in America have been saying, oh, Republicans are waging a war on women.

SEN. JONI ERNST (R), IOWA: I didn`t want to hear about the phony war on women, because first, I am a woman and, second, I have been to war and this is not a war.


HAYES: Now, the Republican Party has chosen as its standard bearer, somebody who embodies the very caricature they tried hard to refute.

I`m joined now by former Michigan Governor Jennifer Granholm, now a senior adviser to the pro-Clinton super PAC, Correct the Record, Michael Steele, former chairman of RNC, and now, an MSNBC political analyst.

Michael, you know, I remember during the peak heat of war on women, many Republicans, many conservatives, folks that I am friends with, friendly with, and corresponding with saying this is totally libelous, it`s ridiculous to say if we have, say, the Catholic Church`s official position on abortion, that that`s a war on women, there are many women who hold that position.

Now, take that, you`ve got a guy running who is saying, one of his lead argument is, Hillary Clinton is basically only there, secretary of state, U.S. senator, you know, Watergate commission when she was very young, Yale Law grad is only there because she is a women. That is a tough argument, I think?

MICHAEL STEELE, MSNBC POLTICAL ANALYST: It is a tough argument. I won`t come on this program and try to defend it because you don`t in that sense, because her record is what it is and her pedigree politically as well as personally is what it is.

But here`s where -- this is where I kind of see what Donald Trump, I think, is trying to do. This is a drawing out measure. I think Donald Trump is less interested in a head to head response from Hillary Clinton and actually more interested in a response from Bill Clinton.

HAYES: Yes, right.

STEELE: I think that, you know, we saw what happened the last time Mr. Clinton got drawn out into this kind of discussion, and I think this is an early testing of that, to see exactly how far they can go, he can go with this and whether or not Bill comes into the fray, if you will.

So, I don`t think -- I don`t put too much stock where all of this goes. You asked the right question, you know, how long does this strategy hold up, how long does he do this? I don`t think long. I think by next week, he will have moved on to something else or someone else. If this doesn`t draw out or get the kind of response he`s looking for.

HAYES: Jennifer, your response to that?

JENNIFER GRANHOLM (D), FORMER MICHIGAN GOVERNOR: I can`t even fathom what his strategy is although that`s a plausible interpretation.

HAYES: That`s the most charitable interpretation.


GRANHOLM: I mean, when you think about the fact that 70 percent of women have an unfavorable opinion of him and he continues down this path I`m not sure this will get him what he wants. But I know this, this attack on her provides her the opportunity to say, "Hey, I am not going to engage in personal insults but what I am going to do is I am going to go after you on the policy differences that we have, which is why when she was in Kentucky and Northern Virginia today, she was talking about universal pre-K, she was talking about parental leave, she was taking about childcare, things that women really care about families really care about and things Donald Trump has opposed, including the minimum wage, including choice.

HAYES: But here`s --

GRANHOLM: So, she`s going to use this as a chance to say, "I am fighting for these women. You can attack me but I`m going to fight for women." That is a nice contrast for her.

HAYES: I agree with that, but here`s the problem with that, it strikes me, Michael, is that, when you say has opposed, it`s true, he said things in the past opposing.

STEELE: Right.

HAYES: But as we are learning, in our next block of television trying to unravel what the heck his position is on just simply like what should the marginal tax rate be, is an impossible riddle because it changes every hour, right? And this is actually -- I`ve been thinking about this, Michael. I wonder what you think of this.

I actually think the RNC platform ends up taking on more importance than it does this year for this reason. There`s not a single vote that Trump has cast or veto he has issued or position he has overseen as a member of public service, as public servant that he is stuck to. The platform will be the closest thing in righting, when you say do you or do you not favor de-funding Planned Parenthood and should there be exceptions for rape and incest --


HAYES: -- that`s going to be the first time he`s nailed down to anything.

STEELE: Well, I think you put your finger on the heart beat of what will drive a lot of folks crazy in Cleveland, and that is the platform. I think that`s where the real fight is, because Donald Trump has a populist brand he brings to this argument. And it`s not conservative, we know that. Let`s not pretend.

And so, the reality is how does he take that vision, philosophy, whatever it is, the language he`s brought to this conversation so far and imbue that into -- infuse it into the platform on issues like abortion and so forth?

GRANHOLM: But, Michael, I mean, the platform is the establishment, right? He doesn`t care about the platform. You think he`s going to come out of Cleveland and start mouthing the platform?


STEELE: No, but that`s not the point.

HAYES: Someone is going to have to answer the question whether the Republican nominee for president believes in for instance exceptions in the case of rape and incest for abortion. That is just a simple substantive question about, that someone is going to answer at some point.

GRANHOLM: Well, his answer may be different than the platform, though.

STEELE: It very well may be. As the leading choice here for the party, he`s going to have his fingerprints on that document as well.

GRANHOLM: Well, he will. But here`s what I think people will be looking at. Glen Kessler from "The Washington Post," the fact checker, had a really interesting column this past weekend, saying that Donald Trump is by far and away the most lying candidate, got the more four Pinocchios, the worst kind of lie of all the candidates, 70 percent of the statements he`s made have been fact-checked and found to be lies.

So, in addition to, you know, nailing jell-o to the wall on where he stands on issues, this lying issue, and by the way, Hillary Clinton was found to be the most truthful of all the 2016 candidates, contrary to what he keeps saying, that issue I think will be a really interesting one, Chris. if you get a chance to talk to him and for others as well.

HAYES: Before Michael responds, let me just make a tiny correction. It was 70 percent of statements they checked, not 70 percent of all of the totality of statements. So people are clear on that.

GRANHOLM: It would be more probably. But anyway.

STEELE: I was going to say that number one.

And number two, I appreciate what you just said, Governor, but, you know what? I bet you that`s not how this election plays itself out. I think when you get into that contest between Hillary Clinton who was the establish representative on both sides in this contest and Donald Trump, who`s the outsider, that`s the real battle. And I agree, 70 percent of women don`t like him, and that poll included Republican women and independent women and Democrat women, he`s still winning contests when his name is on the ballot and women are voting for him. No one knows how it will play outside.

GRANHOLM: But she`s going to fight for women, and that`s going to be the issue.

HAYES: Michael, let me say this, I like you, genuinely like you. I`m not going to do what I`ve been want to do with all Republicans on the show, take all the Howard Stern quotes and read them and ask if they agree or disagree, is it impossible for flat-chested women be a 10 --


GRANHOLM: I`d love to see that.

STEELE: I totally get that. I`m not trying to get into that space.

I`m saying something else is going on that`s bigger, that`s gong to be at play and I`m curious how that plays out with Hillary and Donald one-on-one.

HAYES: And Jennifer talked about nailing to it the wall. The question to me, where -- can you -- I mean, there are substantive issues that have to be reckoned with and we`re going to try to keep the focus on them as much as possible and there are debatable on both sides. But, yes, exactly. Good luck.

Jennifer Granholm and Michael Steele, thank you so much.

GRANHOLM: Good to see you. Thanks.

HAYES: Up next, Donald Trump is caught in a vicious policy fight with Donald Trump. We`ll tour his rapidly shifting position on taxes.

Plus, Attorney General Loretta Lynch delivers one of the most passionate public defenses of transgender rights, likening North Carolina`s now infamous bathroom bill to Jim Crow. We will play that for you. It`s a historic moment.

But, first, we`re following breaking news out of Oklahoma, where multiple tornadoes have been reported today. The sheriff in Gavin County confirms one person has been killed by a large tornado that touched down there and several buildings have been destroyed. We`ll continue to monitor that situation and bring you the latest as it happens. Do not go anywhere.


HAYES: Over the course of this campaign, presumptive GOP presidential nominee Donald Trump has been engaged in a furious and near constant back and forth negotiating session over economic policy with himself.

This morning, Trump tried to rework his own suggestion, one widely derided by economists and observers, the U.S. could potentially renegotiate the terms of our national debt and bonds and pay less than 100 cents on a dollar, something Josh Barro deemed an insane idea that would tank the American economy. Today, Trump claimed the media misrepresented his position.


TRUMP: People said I want to buy debt and default on debt. I mean, these people are crazy. This is the United States government. First of all, you never have to default because you print the money, I hate to tell you, OK?


HAYES: OK. Now, this is actually true and sort of a welcome bit of honesty you never hear from politicians.

But make America great again by devaluing its currency is let`s just say a somewhat novel approach for a Republican presidential nominee.

Then, there`s wages. Trump once suggested they`re too high and that the minimum wage should remain at $7.25 per hour.


TRUMP: Taxes too high, wages too high. We`re not going to be able to compete against the world. I hate to say it, but we have to leave it the way it is.


HAYES: Yesterday, however, Trump suggested the minimum wage is, in fact, too low, although crucially, he would not commit to raising it at the federal level. In fact, if you follow his logic, he seems to be saying the federal minimum wage should actually be zero.


TRUMP: I don`t know how people make it on $7.25 an hour. Now, with that being said, I would like to see an increase of some magnitude. I`d rather leave to it the states. Let the states decide, because don`t forget, the states have to compete with each other?

CHUCK TODD, MEET THE PRESS: Right. You want the federal set a floor and let the states --

TRUMP: No. I`d rather have the states go out and do what they have to do. And the states compete with each other, not only other countries. But they compete with each other, Chuck. So, I like the idea of let the states decide. But I think people should get more.


HAYES: All right. That brings us to Trump`s tax plan. Now, in September, Trump unveiled a classic Republican plan that massively reduce taxes for the wealthiest Americans. AT the top 0.1 percent, seeing an average tax cut of $1.3 million according to the non-partisan Tax Policy Center.

Yet, since then, Trump claimed if he was president, taxes on the rich would actually go up.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you believe in raising taxes on the wealthy?

TRUMP: I do. I do. Including myself, I do.

For the wealthy, I think frankly it`s going to go up. And you know what? It really should go up.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The bottom line, do you want taxes on the wealthy to go up or down?

TRUMP: They will go up a little bit, and they may go up, you know --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But they`re going down in your plan?

TRUMP: No, no, in my plan, they`re going down. But by the time that`s negotiated, they will go up.


HAYES: All right. Those last two comments, Trump made them yesterday. Now, today, he claimed he`s actually saying taxes on the rich would in the end still go down, but by a smaller amount than his initial plan suggests.


TRUMP: I`m not talking about a tax increase, I`m talking about a tremendous tax decrease, OK? I could see the wealthy getting rich. I`m not talking raise from where they are now, I`m talking about raise from my low proposal.


HAYES: He almost like he tells whatever interviewer he`s in front of whatever they want to hear.

In response to all of this, the Hillary Clinton campaign today held a call to reporters to press the point Trump still wants to give rich people like himself a tax cut regardless of what he may have said yesterday. And all this gets at one the challenge that the Clinton camp faces, you can spend hours parsing Trump`s public statements on an issue without being able to pinpoint what he actually stands for. I asked Senator Sherrod Brown, a Clinton supporter, how the campaign deal with that.


SEN. SHERROD BROWN (D), OHIO: Well, I think you just stand strong. You support the minimum wage. You want a different trade policy. You want to close the carried interest loophole that benefits Wall Street hedge fund managers. You simply focus on saying what needs to be said.

I think Trump is going to screw himself into the ground by saying he`s -- like by saying incomprehensible things about the minimum wage. I mean, he said, Americans make too much money. Now, he`s kind of saying, maybe you think about the minimum wage and then he says, well, let the states do it. He doesn`t really want to raise it, but he doesn`t put a number on it.

So, I just think you don`t get in that game he`s trying to be both sides on Social Security, both sides on minimum wage, all sides on corporate taxes and tacking upper income people. He`s just -- he`s just saying pabulum. It`s up to Secretary Clinton to straight out say what she`s going to do and voters are going to be attracted to that because they`re going to believe her over time and not really understand except for the -- you know, 30 percent that are automatically going to be for Trump no matter what he says. They`re not going to believe him in the end.

HAYES: You know, you`re in a state, you`re in a Rust Belt state. It`s the kind of state that when folks try to think through a scenario in which Trump would be maximally competitive with Secretary Clinton, it`s states like yours they think he would have to put in play.

And if you have someone who`s totally untethered by any voting record, any governing record, there`s no bills he`s ever vetoed, no bills he`s ever voted for, no tax hikes or cuts he`s ever passed, right, do you fear him being able to essentially just get to whatever position he needs to to talk to the voters in your state on trade or the minimum wage or outsourcing while it`s convenient and that message resonating?

BROWN: First, Chris, I don`t represent a Rust Belt state. I represent a state with high-tech manufacturing and all sorts of other things. Start with that, my friend.

HAYES: A dynamic global state with a booming economy, but has also experienced manufacturing loss.

BROWN: Of course, yes, as the whole country has. Yes, good point.

I think the Trump -- I mean, I spent a lot of time last week when we were out of session, I spent a lot of time talking to labor union members and white working class and African-American working class people, they hear what Trump says on trade. They generally like it although he doesn`t put anything specific and they increasingly are learning he is outsourcing manufacturing jobs for his own clothing line and other things. But they also understand he`s against minimum wage, he`s against prevailing wage, he`s for right to work, he`s for all the things or against all the things that matter to labor.

And I think that -- I think he`s not going to wear well there. He can be - - you know, sort of the -- he can say slap a tariff on China and he can engage in his jingoism about people in other countries. But Hillary has got the right place and I`m working with her.

And in the end, I trust Hillary Clinton to do the right thing on jobs, in manufacturing and trade policy. She`s going to win Ohio like she won Ohio big in the primary. I expect that and I am virtually certain of that. But it`s going to take a lot of work.

HAYES: You know, one thing that has been interesting to watch from a substantive standpoint, to the extent there`s been substances, is Trump has now been banging on about the need to rein in, quote, "retirements and cut Social Security and Medicare". He`s made a few noises but generally has deviated from Republican orthodoxy on that.

You`ve got a nominee who`s a sitting trustee to be re-nominated on the Social Security trustee board who you are opposing because you feel the desire to cut and privatize that program still persists even after that political victory seems to be totally won by your side.

BROWN: Oh, there`s no question that Wall Street and their Republican sycophants and minions in Congress, in the House and Senate, they so much want to get their hands on Social Security, and they want to privatize. They will never give up.

That`s the big fight here about social insurance. They will never quit on that no matter how many times we win.

With -- this guy is the guy, Charles Blahous, is guy that helped to write the script for George Bush`s bill, helped draft the talking points. And he wants to be a trustee.

Trustee means you are entrusted to protect Social Security, not make speeches all over the country how to privatize, how to undermine, how to raise the retirement age, how to cut benefits, how to freeze COLAs, all those kinds of things.

And Trump is part of that. I mean, Trump says he wants to make a deal on Social Security. I don`t want a deal. Social Security is a covenant and promise that President Roosevelt made that every president since then has by and large stuck to. George Bush got off the rails, but everybody else stuck to.

And we`re not going to elect a president that wants to make a deal on Social Security. We`re going to elect a president that`s going to protect it, period.

HAYES: All right. Senator Sherrod Brown, always a pleasure of your time. Thank you.

BROWN: Thanks.

HAYES: Coming up, the Obama administration sues North Carolina over its so-called bathroom bill, delivering a powerful message to trans Americans, we see you. We`ll play those comments ahead.


HAYES: The infighting in the Republican Party over its presumptive nominee still looms large. Bear in mind, the speaker of the House, Paul Ryan, literally the most powerful Republican in America, second in the line of succession to the presidency, is being used by Donald Trump as a pinata at his rallies ever since Ryan said he could not yet endorse Trump.


TRUMP: Paul Ryan, I don`t know what happened. I don`t know.

I didn`t get Paul Ryan. I don`t know what happened. I don`t know. I don`t know what happened.

I`ve gotten tremendous endorsements. I didn`t get it from Ryan, though, can you imagine? Paul Ryan. That`s a hard one.


HAYES: Trump surrogate and ally, Sarah Palin, has now said she will do whatever she can to help oust Speaker Ryan in a Republican primary.


SARAH PALIN (R), FORMER ALASKA GOVERNOR: I think Paul Ryan is soon to be Cantored, as in Eric Cantor. His political career is over but for a miracle because he has so disrespected the will of the people.


HAYES: The man running against Ryan in the Republican primary in August seen here riding a motorcycle is businessman Paul Nehlen, who challenged Ryan both to debate and to arm-wrestle him.

Today, Speaker Ryan himself offered to step down as chairman of the GOP convention if Trump asked him to.


QUESTION: If he asked you to step down from the convention, would you?

REP. PAUL RYAN (R-WI), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: I`ll do whatever -- he`s the nominee. I`ll do whatever he wants with respect to the convention.

The point -- the point I would make is, I just think it`s important that all wings of the party come together to get ourselves at full strength.


HAYES: One suspects Ryan hopes he gets taken up on that offer. Donald Trump may be seen as abomination by many in the Republican Party. There is a case to be made the further Trump gets away from the GOP, the better his chances, its chances, his chances of the general election.

Michael Moore has made the case that Trump can win the general election. He`ll join me to discuss why a little later in the show.


HAYES: The battle over North Carolina`s extremely controversial so-called bathroom law, which requires transgender people to use public restrooms that correspond to the sex on their birth certificate rather than their own gender identity has now lead to the state and the federal government suing one another in one of the biggest, probably the biggest, most high profile civil rights fight on this issue ever.

North Carolina Governor Pat McCrory announced his suit earlier today in response to a letter from the Justice Department`s civil rights official last week week that gave the state until the close of business today to stop implementation or compliance with the law because it violates the federal civil rights act.


GOV. PAT MCCRORY, (R) NORTH CAROLINA: I do not agree with their interpretation of federal law. That is why this morning I have asked a federal court to clarify what the law actually is.


HAYES: Just a few hours later, Attorney General Loretta Lynch, a North Carolina native, responded by announcing the Justice Department`s own lawsuit.


LORETTA LYNCH, U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: We are filing a federal civil rights lawsuit against the state of North Carolina, Governor Pat McCrory, the North Carolina department of public safety and the university of Morth Carolina. We are seeking a court order declaring HB2`s restroom restriction impermissibly discriminatory as a state wide bar on its enforcement.


HAYES: Now, the attorney general did something I have never seen any other high level federal official do in my lifetime, she made a full-throated defense of the rights and equality of transgender citizens.


LYNCH; And what we must not do, what we must never do is turn on our neighbors, our family members, our fellow Americans for something that they cannot control and deny what makes them human. And this is why none of us can stand by when a state enters the business of legislating identity and insists that a person pretend to be something or someone that they are not, but no matter how isolated, no matter how afraid and no matter how alone you may feel today, know this, that the Department of Justice and indeed the entire Obama administration want you to know that we see you, we stand with you and we will do everything we can to protect you going forward.


HAYES: Joining me now, Julie Fernandes, former deputy assistant attorney general for civil rights at the DOJ and Chase Strangio, staff attorney with the ACLU`s LGBT and AIDS project.

And Chase, let me start with you, this felt historic to me. Am I wrong? Has anyone ever made that kind full-throated argument at that level of government?

CHASE STRANGIO, ACLU`S LGBT & AIDS PROJECT: I totally agree, Chris. This was a really big deal. And just last year we thought it was a big deal that President Obama said the word transgender. And here we are today with this very powerful very affirming defense of transgender people in the moment when transgendered people are literally under attack.

And it was moving and it was critical important. It came at the exact right time.

HAYES: Julie, you worked at the Department of Justice helping to enforce civil rights law. The argument here is whether the Civil Rights Act, and specifically title 7 and some title 9, which has to do with that has to do with education permits the kind of law that North Carolina has passed.

What do we know about what courts have said about this kind of thing?

JULIE FERNANDES, FRM. DEPUTY ASST. ATTORNEY, U.S. JUSTICE DEPT: Well, I do think at this point, Chris, it`s pretty clear certainly in the fourth circuit, the EEOC, the Justice Department all agree that transgenders people are protected against discrimination in employment under title 7 and against schools, title 9. For a long time, our laws have protected people in their gender identity and expression going back to the late `80s and early title 7 cases.

So, I think the law is pretty clear, and the Justice Department is putting their muscle behind something, a really important principle.

HAYES: This now then becomes a huge -- not just a legal fight, but a huge political fight. I mean, we now have the federal government suing a state to essentailly overturn a state law is the stuff of all of them some of the most iconic civil rights battle in history and this comes now in to this election year.

I`m sorry. Chase, go ahead.

STRANGIO: Obviously, this is an incredibly political moment when this is happening. But, as Julie mentioned, this is a longstanding legal principle. Sex discrimination covers transgender people. We know that. The courts have ruled that over and over again. And I think what`s happening now is we`re seeing state level politicians digging in to a discriminatory view about transgender people and really calling to question -- and Governor McCrory continually says he`s the one being bullied, but the reality is that transgender people are being bullied as attorney general have said today by state legislatures in a very -- in a sort of widespread way that we haven`t seen before.

HAYES: Does this end up before the Supreme Court? And if so, is there Supreme Court jurisprudence on this specific issue of sort of transgender rights specifically?

FERNANDES: I don`t think this ends up before the court. I don`t know, Chase, if you have more information about this. I think that this is going to end up getting resolved in the lower courts is my guess. It may even be resolved out of court as the attorney general suggested a little bit in her press conference.

But I think that it is classic civil rights work and classically great civil rights work for the department to stand up against state laws that are discriminatory. They`re doing it actually twice in North Carolina, as you know, Chris. This is not the only lawsuit that they have suing the state of North Carolina for having a reactionary law.

So, this is -- it could go to the court, of course, but the hope is this can be resolved so that we can protect the rights and the dignity of transgendered people all over the country.

HAYES: Briefly, there`s a law in Mississippi that my sense is is just as bad on the merits. Our the sense that the Department of Justice hasn`t worked through the process enough to kind of weigh in on that?

STANGIO: Well, we did see...

FERNANDES: Well, I don`t know where they are on this. I do know the attorney general said they were looking at other similar laws to the extent that they exist.

What was interesting, too, Chris, is that this was actually a preemption issue as well. You know, North Carolina reached out for this issue because Charlotte had had...

HAYES: Right, to preempt Charlotte, right.

FERNANDES: Right. Because Charlotte had an ordinance that was going to clarify to make sure they were protecting appropriately the transgendered population.

So, North Carolina kind of reached out for this fight in kind of a very audacious way. But I do think the department is looking at other laws around the country and this moment is a time for -- I think I saw there was some place that actually repealed part of the law that was going to discriminate against transgendered people in response to this. So, this is all good.

HAYES: Briefly, you have a lawsuit against Mississippi?

STRANGIO: Yeah, we sued Mississippi today for HB1523, which was a lawsuit that allows for discrimination based on sincerely held religious beliefs that you don`t believe transgender people exist, that you don`t believe in sex outside of marriage, or that you don`t believe that marriage is anything between a man and a woman. And we challenged that law in federal court today.

HAYES: And that`s a federal lawsuit.

STRANGIO: That`s a federal lawsuit.

HAYES: So, we`ll see that play out, even if again that -- this sort of private right of action, right. You guys are suing here. This is not the Department of Justice but they may weigh in as well?


HAYES: All right, Julie Ferdandes, Chase Strangio, thank you so much for joining us tonight.

Coming up, guess which Donald Trump endorser called him an unstable egomaniacal madman less than a year ago? I`ll tell you who next.


HAYES: Over the past couple of days we`ve seen a few prominent Republicans and conservatives announce to the world exactly where they have landed on the Donald Trump acceptance meter. Some remain in the Never Trump category while others have come out on the Trump curious bandwagon which is a short trip to maybe Trump, some huddling under the okay, fine Trump umbrella, while a brave group has planted themselves firmly in the Trump! category.

Last week we told you about the evolution of former Texas governor and two- time presidential hopeful Rick Perry, Perry who once compared Trump`s candidacy to cancer seemed to be solidly in the Never Trump category, but all changed on Friday when Perry decided not only is he OK with a cancer leading the Republican Party, he`s open to being on the cancer ticket.

Now, former Louisiana governor Bobbi Jindal, another one of Trump`s former rivals for the nomination is reevaluating where he is on the Trump acceptance meter. Here`s a reminder of where Jindal stood previously.


BOBBI JINDAL, FRM. GOVERNOR FO LOUISIANA: Donald Trump is not a serious candidate. He`s a narcissist, he`s an egomaniac, he`s non-serious, he`s a carnival act. Donald Trump is shallow. He has no idea what he`s talking about. He makes it up on the fly.

Donald Trump is for Donald Trump. Donald Trump is a narcissist and he`s an egomaniac. He`s an entertaining narcissist, but he`s still a narcissit.

Donald Trump is insecure and weak. Folks, Donald Trump is not a serious person. This is a carnival act.


HAYES: I will give you 60 seconds to figure out where Jindal is now in the Donald Trump acceptance meter, but you probably won`t need the full minute.



JINDAL: I think it`s pretty outrageous for him to be attacking anybody`s appearance when he looks like he`s got a squirrel sitting on his head. I think he should stop attacking other people`s appearances.


HAYES: Just a quick reminder of where former Rhodes Scholar and former Louisiana governor Bobby Jindal stood on the Donald Trump acceptance meter. It was a safe bet to place him at or at the very least adjacent to the Never Trump category, that is until yesterday when Jindal took the long walk of acceptance and came out in favor of the presumptive Republican nominee.

In a Wall Street Journal op ed titled, "I`m voting for Trump, warts and all," Jindal explains his about face: "I think electing Donald Trump would be the second worst thing we could do this November better only than electing Hillary Clinton to serve as a third term of the Obama administration`s radical policies."

His vote of confidence in the de facto leader of the party goes even further, "I do not pretend Donald Trump is the Reaganesque leader we so desperately need, but he is certainly the better of two bad choices. Hardly an inspiring slogan, I know."



TRUMP: Donald J. Trump is calling for a total and complete shut-down of Muslims entering the United States until our country`s representatives can figure out what the hell is going on.

We have no choice. We have no choice.


HAYES: Donald Trump has vowed to ban foreign Muslims from entering the country, became an early hallmark of his campaign, how not backing away from that position even as the presumptive Republican nominee for president.

In fact, just last week he reaffirmed it.


LESTER HOLD, NBC NEWS: Do you stand, for example, by the idea of a ban against foreign Muslims coming here?

TRUMP: I do. We have to be vigilant. We have to be strong. We have to see what`s going on. There`s a big problem in the world. You look at what`s happening with the migration in Europe, you look at Germany, it`s crime-riddled right now.


HAYES: The proposed policy, if you can call it that, would ban over a billion people from traveling to the United States, and that presumably would include the newly elected mayor of London, Sadiq Khan, labeled the first Muslim mayor of Londonistan by the Trump friendly and often quite openly anti-muslim Drudge Report.

Sadiq Khan was sworn in over the weekend, becoming the first Muslim mayor in London`s history and yesterday he weighed in on Trump`s proposed ban, saying, quote, if Donald Trump becomes the president I will be stopped from going there by virtue of my faith, which means I can`t engage with American mayors and swap ideas.

Khan said he`s now planning a trip to the U.S. before January just in cast Donald Trump gets elected.

Turns out he may not need to cross the Atlantic so soon, Trump indicating late this evening the newly elected mayor could be the exception to his foreign Muslim ban saying, quote, "there saying there will always be exceptions," adding he`s happy about Sadiq Khan`s election. Quote, "I think it`s a very good thing. I hope the does a very good job, because frankly that would be very, very good." Just the latest indication that for Mr. Trump no policy is set in stone.

Up next, Michael Moore will explain why he believes Trump can actually win the general. He`ll join me here in studio just after the break.


HAYES: There are plenty of pundits who say Donald Trump doesn`t stand a chance against Hillary Clinton in the general election, then there are those, pundits or not, who warn of the opposite, quote, "I know they [the Trump Campaign] are planning to focus on Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin. That`s how he can win the election. If he can get those upper kind of Midwestern-type state, then he can pull it off."

That from Bernie Sanders support Michael Moore. And Michael Moore joins me now.

How are you, Michael. It`s good to see you again.

MICHAEL MOORE, FILMMAKER: Good. Good. Am I know a pundit?

HAYES: You`re a filmmaker, a writer, social activist, visionary...

MOORE: We can stop there. Thank you

HAYES: I guess let`s start with this. I remember Downsize This I think was the book. I remember reading that book. The last chapter of Downsize This, if I`m not mistaken, is an interview with the Michigan militia, right.

MOORE: Correct.

HAYES: And in it it basically says, look, these should be our people, OK. We should find a way, those of us on the left, right, that`s the perspective your righting from, to talk to the fears and hopes that these folks have about getting left behind. And it occurs there`s something a little bit like that happening in this political moment, as well.

MOORE: Yeah. I think that Trump is -- look, I said publicly last august that I thought he would be the Republican nominee, and that was laughed at. I don`t think -- I think people are no longer laughing.

HAYES: No, no.

MOORE: At the possibility of what could happen. I mean, people say to me all the time, you know, like how bad could it be, really if Trump gets in?

And I`m like, well, what do you mean by how bad? What`s the scale of how bad? Like, like, like, how bad, like, Frank Underwood pushing Zoe in front of the metro train bad or Baxter putting the bar of soap by Lady Granthum`s (ph) bathtub so she`s slip and lose the baby bad? I mean, I don`t know how bad, but I would say pretty bad.

But if people -- I think -- and I was listening to Bill Maher the other night say this, too, I think it`s very important that we take this seriously, that our side of the political fence often times does not come out to vote. And so therefore, the other side, they`re very good at getting up in the morning and going in to vote.

And so I think we`ve -- I think that should be a real concern.

But I have said -- and I said this on your show before, and the polls have proven this to be true, that actually if Bernie Sanders was the candidate, he`s a safer choice to beat Trump than Hillary. They both can beat him. But I think his strategy will be to focus on the part of the country I`m from, because he says things like if Ford takes that factory out of Detroit and takes it to Mexico...

HAYES: I will literally just tell them no, they can`t leave.

MOORE: I shall tell them no.

HAYES: I cannot leave.

MOORE: Breaks into song.

HAYES: I`ve seen this argument increasingly from Sanders`s folks and I should say that in aggregate polling, it is based on data, and that data is the aggregate polling averages that show the margins of Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton. But it`s also based on a fictional election that hasn`t happened.

MOORE: Oh yeah, we`re six months away.

HAYES: Right. It does seem to me that people are putting -- the folks that are supporting Sanders -- let`s just be clear, there`s substantive reason that people are mostly supporting Sanders. I don`t think most people are supporting him because they think he`s the most likely to beat Trump. I think they...

MOORE: No, they are voting from their conscience.

HAYES: Exactly. They`re voting for their conscience and their beliefs and they say he says things I agree with.

MOORE: That`s why I voted for him.

HAYES: But they have made the argument about this, and that seems to me to underestimate the impact of what it would be for Bernie Sanders to be in the crosshairs of...

MOORE: Well, I think what Bernie -- what he said the other night was true when he said that -- Bernie isn`t going to deliver these votes for Hillary. Hillary is going to have to reach out and convince Sanders`s voters why they should be for -- and not just as an anti-Trump vote.

HAYES: Right, so then what do you make of at this moment, which I think is really interesting. I think this election has been fascinating on the Democratic side, although so much attention has been paid to the Republicans.

I mean, you have got a situation where the math gets harder and harder for Sanders as he goes on. And it remains the case that people are coming out to vote for Bernie Sanders, late and late into the primary. There has been no one saying, you know what, let`s get on with this, let`s do it. He`s probably going to win West Virginia tomorrow.

MOORE: Oh, no. He`s ahead in the polls.

HAYES: What does that mean, though, to you about this moment for what is the center-left coalition in America? What does that mean to you? What does that say to you?

MOORE: First of all, I feel really good about the fact that there`s nine primaries left. He`s ahead in the polls in six of those nine. That`s pretty damn good. He`s won 18, plus Democrats abroad. That`s 25 primaries for a guy who is a democratic socialist.

HAYES: Sure. Totally. But ultimately where things are right now and where they look like they will end up, is that he is the choice of about 45 percent of Democrats.

MOORE: Yes. Yes. Right now. Which is great. Which is huge.

HAYES: It is not the majority, it is a big number.

MOORE: But this is such a crazy election year. The election is six months from yesterday, right? So we`ve got six more months of this craziness.

We can`t even -- as we sit here tonight, we can`t imagine all the craziness that`s going to take place between now and then.

And anything can happen between now and the convention, with Trump, with Hillary, with Bernie, whatever.

I wouldn`t sit here and presume anything right now, other than that I`m the presumptive guest on your show at this moment, other than that.

HAYES: But then, so -- what I`m asking you to make predictions. What I`m asking for you to say is, sometimes -- let me tell you where I am. I have two minds. At one level I feel like I see this sort of...

MOORE: I can help you with this.

HAYES: This roiling frustration and anger in America, this alienation, that is largely I think born of the fact that most workers have not seen the gains of this economy in a long time, and it`s particularly true of this recovery, which in certain comparative ways has been miraculous, and in other ways has been a big disappointment for folks.

MOORE: Most would be more than 90 percent.

HAYES: That is the weird paradox of this recovery.

MOORE: That`s right.

HAYES: At the same time, I also sometimes wonder if we get suckered into paying the most attention, the squeaky wheel gets the grease, and there`s a lot of Americans -- President Obama approval rating is at an all-time high, 55 percent Democrats had voted for Hillary Clinton who is running the sort of embrace that legacy. The press is missing the folks who feel like actually things are going in a good direction.

MOORE: I don`t think that`s true. In fact, I think -- you see, here`s the problem is that the depression that takes place from people who have suffered through this time, through these last couple of decades, it`s harder and harder for them to say why bother? Why get up and go and vote? Because these are just politicians.

Young people don`t like phony. They don`t like fake. And they have a good sniffer for BS. And this is going to be Hillary`s problem to get young people out to vote, because they sense something is not real here. And for people of my generation...

HAYES: I think that`s over determined, let me just say.

MOORE: What does that mean over determined?

HAYES: I mean that I think that is people`s sense of her authenticity or not cannot be divorced from the way in which she`s been portrayed for decades.

MOORE: Well, she`s been abused for decades. But I think there`s a real problem here, it shouldn`t be ignored. And I think -- well, let`s see what Rachel has to say about this. Rachel, are you here?

HAYES: Nice throw, Michael. Documentary filmmaker Michael Moore, whose latest film Where to Invade Next is available on Blu-Ray tomorrow, a fascinating see and fasinatingly executed. Thanks so much for your time tonight.

That is All In for this evening. Rachel Maddow, being called by Michael Moore starts now.