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All In With Chris Hayes, Transcript 4/22/2016

Guests: Ken Vogel, Katie Packer, Chase Strangio, Jon Pareles, Nick Confessore, Lee Fang

Show: ALL IN with CHRIS HAYES Date: April 22, 2016 Guest: Ken Vogel, Katie Packer, Chase Strangio, Jon Pareles, Nick Confessore, Lee Fang


CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST (voice-over): Tonight on ALL IN --

PAUL MANAFORT, TRUMP CAMPAIGN CONVENTION MANAGER: He`s talking politics in a private room, it`s a different persona.

HAYES: The Trump campaign is an elaborate act! So says the Trump campaign.

MANAFORT: The part that he`s been playing is evolving into the part that now you`ve been expecting.

HAYES: Tonight, the new Trump sales pitch to the RNC and the questionable lobbying resume of the man making the pitch.

Then, the desperate politics behind the new Cruz scare tactics. A new look at the staggering fund-raising numbers keeping the Bernie campaign going. And our first official word on what happened to Prince.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have no reason to believe at this time it`s a suicide.

HAYES: As remembrances continue to pour in.

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: This morning, we played "Purple Rain" and "Delirious" just to get warmed up.

HAYES: When ALL IN starts right now.


HAYES: Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes.

Tonight, new evidence the Trump campaign is a bait and switch that many have been predicting. While Donald Trump has been campaigning over the last 24 hours in Delaware and Pennsylvania, working to clinch the nomination, his new chief aide, Paul Manafort, has been on a different mission -- to sell his candidate to the Republican establishment.

And bombshell audio from a private meeting in Florida between Manafort and top Republican officials shows just how he is doing it. By assuring members of the RNC the Trump onstage and Trump behind closed doors are two entirely different people.


MANAFORT: When he`s sitting in a room, he`s talking business, he`s talking politics in a private room, it`s a different persona. When he`s out on the stage, when he`s talking about the kinds of things he`s talking about on the stump, he`s projecting an image that`s for that purpose. And the two you`ll start to see come together in the course of the next several months.


HAYES: Manafort working to rebrand Trump, promising an evolving candidate who`s been playing a part to win the primary.


MANAFORT: That`s what`s important from our standpoint, for you to understand that he gets it and the part he`s been playing is evolving into the part you`ve been expecting but he wasn`t ready for because he had to see through the first phase. Negatives will come down, image is going to change, but it`s still going to be "Crooked Hillary" and that`s what you`re going to be seeing a lot more of.



HAYES: Applause.

Just hours ago at a rally in Delaware, Trump didn`t shy away from the notion he will change as a candidate once he wins the primary, promising an upcoming pivot to being more, quote, "presidential."


DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Ivanka, she says, dad, please be more presidential. I say, I can`t, I have to beat these people, I don`t want to be too presidential yet.

Don`t worry -- hey, being presidential for me is much easier than doing this. And you know what? If I was totally presidential, we have 10,000 people here or something, I`d have about 300 and you`d be falling asleep after 20 minutes, OK? We have to have a little.

But honestly, I probably wouldn`t be here, because I was hit really hard by these 17 people. I was hit really, really hard. And if I didn`t hit them back really, really harder, I wouldn`t be here.


HAYES: For those who believe the Trump campaign is a con job and elaborate bait and switch in which he convinces a credulous base to vote for him then does an about-face in the general -- the comments from Manafort echoed by Trump were the evidence they need. And Ted Cruz campaigning earlier today in Pennsylvania immediately seized on them.


SEN. TED CRUZ (R-TX), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Donald`s campaign is now run by a Washington lobbyist who has been a lobbyist for 40 years. They brought in an army of lobbyists who are running the entire campaign.

Yesterday, they were down in Florida meeting with party leaders and they were saying, these are their words, that all of this is just a show. That he doesn`t believe anything he`s saying. He`s just trying to fool gullible voters and he`s not going to do any of it, he`s not going to build a wall, he`s not going to deport anyone. He is telling us he is lying to us.


HAYES: Ted Cruz is certainly right about at least one thing, Donald Trump`s campaign is now officially being run by Washington lobbyists. The very people he spent much of his campaign railing against. And it`s not just any lobbyists who are in charge of this phase of the campaign, but, well, some of the -- well, the most unsavory lobbyists possible.

Paul Manafort, who has brought in several of his friends, has spent decades in Washington, D.C., working for some of the worst people in the world, literally, as "Politico" reports. The firm he helped found developed a niche representing a roster of controversial international clients that has been described as the torturers lobby. Clients included Filipino dictator Ferdinand Marcos, a group accused of being a front for Pakistani intelligence, and most recently, ousted Ukrainian Prime Minister Viktor Yanukovych.

When asked about his past clients, including the ousted Ukrainian prime minister, widely seen as corrupt who fled to Russia, Manafort says he`s always careful about who he chooses to work for.


CHUCK TODD, MEET THE PRESS: You have controversial clients in your past -- some current, some in the past. Has Mr. Trump asked you to stop working for certain clients, stop doing work in Ukraine if it`s against America`s national security?

MANAFORT: Well, the work I was doing in Ukraine was to help Ukraine get into Europe and we succeeded. But I`m not working for any clients right now other than Mr. Trump.

TODD: And are you going to make a promise in the future that if he`s president, you`ll be careful what clients you take?

MANAFORT: I`m always careful what clients I take.


HAYES: Joining me, Ken Vogel, chief investigative reporter "Politico", who wrote a fantastic piece on the lobbyists the Trump campaign brought in.

And, Ken, I -- well, this is a great, great piece. I mean, this is -- if you were -- it`s almost like the thank you for smoking book and movie by the same name, like if you were to create a cartoonish vision of what people`s worst image of what a Washington lobbyist does, the Manafort operation is not that far from it.

KEN VOGEL, POLITICO: Not only that, Chris, not only do they represent all manner of sort of corporate criminals, accused corporate criminals, and industries that are regarded as unsavory in Washington, Manafort has pioneered taking this business model and making it international, representing just a host of characters around the world who U.S. foreign policy, the U.S. foreign policy community, frankly wants nothing to do with. So much so that in 2008 there was a guy who was a long-time Manafort aide, just brought into the campaign, a guy by the name of Doug Davenport, whose work on behalf of the Burmese military junta back then was seen as so unsavory that the McCain campaign distanced itself from him and he basically had to resign, as a result of that.

It`s interesting that we see no such qualms by the Trump campaign about bringing in these types of folks because Trump unlike McCain has made a central part of his political identity the idea that he`s not beholden to lobbyists and he doesn`t play this Washington game, yet here he is with a staff that has been taken over to some extent, to almost a complete extent, by Paul Manafort, who is bringing in all these folks with whom he has close ties, most of whom he worked with in lobbying.

HAYES: It`s really astounding. Then you have him in almost in 47 percent moment in this taped audio basically saying, don`t worry, that`s just for the rubes. He`s not crazy, he`s one of us! I mean -- and I don`t know if it`s going to hurt him or not but man alive it really sounds like at this point they`re saying the soft part loud and the loud part softly.

VOGEL: Yes, I think that some of that is actually attention that is going on not just within the Trump campaign but within Donald Trump himself. And that to some extent Paul Manafort is like the human embodiment of his ego. The guy who`s telling him, hey, we need to adapt and change, we need to play by the rules, traditional Washington rules, even though you`ve thumbed your nose at them so successfully, it`s time to pivot here.

Whereas the folks he had around him previously, Trump that is, the old campaign regime, headed by campaign manager Corey Lewandowski who`s been supplanted by Manafort, they were like Donald Trump`s id, they were like, yes, let`s Donald be Donald, or rather, let Mr. Trump be Mr. Trump and kind of encouraged him to fly by the seat of his pants. Now, you have Manafort making a course correction and admitting something that you`re not supposed to admit publicly. If you do admit it privately, you better make sure that there are no recorders in the room.

HAYES: Not only admitting that but then you`ve got the crazy fourth wall moment of Trump himself now saying, a new line of his, if I acted presidential, none of you -- I`m just doing this for attention transparently, and so far it`s working. It`s a very bizarre message for a presidential candidate.

VOGEL: And actually, I`ll add one more thing. From our sources tell us that in fact Manafort`s admission, recorded and then obviously publicly disseminated, actually really bothered Trump. Our sources tell us that. That he was really put off by this. Despite the fact that he`s out there publicly saying something that`s not too different.

He wants it to be this sort of open and transparent process where when admits, hey, I`m playing the political game but that`s not really who I am. To have someone else representing him to these Washington power brokers oddly seemed to be a bridge too far for him. And again, we understand that he was upset by that.

HAYES: Really, the development of the Manafort character coming into this play in the second act is really something.

Ken Vogel, thanks so much for joining me.

VOGEL: It`s a pleasure, Chris.

HAYES: Joining me now, Katie Packer, former deputy campaign manager from Mitt Romney`s 2012 presidential campaign, founder of the anti-Trump PAC, Our Priorities.

Well, I guess, first your reaction. I mean, this confirms I guess precisely the kind of story you and your allies have been telling about Trump for months now.

KATIE PACKER, OUR PRIORITIES PAC: Well, you know, I mean, Trump is the guy that`s almost 70 years old, I don`t think he`s a leopard that`s going to change his spots any time soon. I think it`s telling that he felt he need to bring in this whole slew of Washington lobbyists, and like your first story mentioned, just representing sort of the dredges of the international society, to try to remake him in their image. And of course they want to reassure people that the guy that they`ve seen for the last year isn`t the guy that`s going to represent them, because Republicans are terrified of that.

This is a guy that just has no character, has no grace, no class, no dignity, and is totally unsuited to be president of the United States. And RNC members recognize it.

HAYES: OK, that may be true. The members may recognize it.

But let me just sketch out the landscape. He had a pretty good night in New York. He lost a few delegates. I think you and I both agree he`s going to have a very good night on Tuesday night. That is his sort of geographic, demographic stronghold.

Indiana looks like a more favorable terrain. Here`s the polling out of Indiana. That`s a week from Tuesday. He`s up by 8 points in the latest polling, 41-33. Go to California, on June 7th, 49-22 over Ted Cruz right now.

If those numbers were to hold, he`s going to get to 1,237. And all this talk about who`s got the people on the floor and all that, that`s a moot point, how soon just going to walk in and have the nomination.

PACKER: Well, not necessarily. The media is very, very fixated on state wins. And what our effort is focused on is delegate wins. He can win California as long as we can pick at a substantial number of those delegates that are available to us congressional district by congressional district.

Even on Tuesday, we do expect him to have some substantial wins. But we`re going to pick away at his delegate count in several different congressional districts are in New York we didn`t expect to take any delegates out of there, and without spending a nickel, we were able to take five delegates out of there.

We feel really good about the notion that we can stop him. He`s still at a point he doesn`t have a majority of Republican voters or a majority of delegates. He`s not in the kind of position that Mitt Romney or John McCain were in the last two cycles or George W. Bush was back when he ran. And so this still has time to play out.

HAYES: Katie, here`s my question for you. I`m asking honestly, I can`t tell how much the never Trump is like you and about 15 other like-minded people, or whether it`s got some -- there`s an actual constituency there. There`s a constituency behind Ted Cruz, that I understand. There are people that have his politics, they like Ted Cruz`s message, and they match.

The idea of a kind of ideological institution at movement around blocking Trump, how broad is that? How much is that just like a fairly small group of people who are essentially like professional Republicans?

PACKER: Well, I think that you see in our donors, we`ve got a broad group of donors that are supporting our effort. We`ve got people that follow our efforts. We had over 1 million views on the last video that we put out to try to stop Trump in Wisconsin.

We had a very broad coalition of people that came together. We were sending the message that in Wisconsin, Cruz is the candidate that can stop him. I think we had some people coming over from the Kasich camp.

What we`re trying to do is guide a strategy and say, look, neither Kasich nor Cruz at this point can get to the 1,237 delegates they need prior to the convention, so we need everybody to be working together to stop Trump from getting there too, then we can throw it open on the convention floor. And a lot of people are excited about that prospect.

HAYES: Why are they so excited about that prospect?

PACKER: Well, I think they`re hopeful that there`s some other option. Like I said, Donald Trump still doesn`t have a majority of Republicans and a majority of Republicans are sort of terrified that this guy is in a position that he could be our party`s standard bearer and God forbid president of the United States.

So, they`re really excited about the opportunity that we might be able to actually get somebody that has a shot at beating Hillary Clinton, which Donald Trump does not.

HAYES: All right. Katie Packer, thanks for joining me, really appreciate it.

Still to come, the campaign many didn`t think would make it this far, including perhaps the candidate himself. The secret weapon that`s helping Bernie Sanders stay in the race ahead.

Plus, what we learned about the investigation into Prince`s dead. I`ll talk with a man who spent decades covering his expansive career.

First, Ted Cruz campaign`s fear-mongering reaches a despicable low with two new ads regarding the so-called bathroom bill. We`ll talk about those in two minutes.


HAYES: Presidential candidate Ted Cruz clearly seems to think he has found a winning issue in the Republican primary, stoking a culture war over so- called, I say so-called, bathroom bills --


AD NARRATOR: Curt Schilling was fired by the PC police for suggesting grown men shouldn`t use the bathrooms of little girls. Guess who`s joined the ranks of the PC police.

TRUMP: People go, they use the bathroom that they feel is appropriate.

AD NARRATOR: Donald Trump can`t be trusted with common sense, why should we trust him in the White House?


HAYES: As if that weren`t bad enough, there`s another grainy, even more fear-mongering, apocalyptic Ted Cruz bathroom ad.


TRUMP: People go, they use the bathroom that they feel is appropriate.


HAYES: All right. North Carolina and Mississippi both recently adopted wildly discriminatory laws designed in part, among other things, to prevent trans people from using the restroom of the gender with which they identify.

And today, the backlash against both states went international. In a news conference with British Prime Minister David Cameron, President Obama called for the law to be overturned while Cameron explained why the U.K. now has a travel warning for many, for any LGBT citizens looking to travel to Mississippi or North Carolina.


DAVID CAMERON, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: Our view on any of these things is that we believe that we should be trying to use more to end discrimination rather than to embed it or enhance it. And that`s something we`re comfortable saying to countries and friends anywhere in the world.


HAYES: Yesterday, this trans woman posted this photo on Instagram. The caption in part, "Here I am using a women`s restroom in North Carolina that I`m technically barred from being in, making all the more absurd and terrified images being used by Cruz and others."

And, by the way, let me just note, thank God that no adult man has ever molested a child of the same sex or we`d really have to figure out some new bathroom laws like, for instance, the boys` shower at Yorkville High in Illinois back when future speaker of the house, then wrestling coach Dennis Hastert, an alleged serial sex abuser, allegedly set up a chair.

According to the government`s court filing in support of Hastert`s sentencing for illegal bank structuring charge related to alleged serial sexual abuse, quote, "Individual D was a member of defendant`s Yorkville High School wrestling team, Individual D recalled the defendant put a "Lazyboy" type chair in direct view of the shower stalls in the locker room where he sat while the boys showered. It is a lot more convenient to paint the picture of terrifying strangers when talking about something like that.

Joining me now, Chase Strangio, a staff attorney with the ACLU`s LGBT and AIDS Project.

It`s great to have you here.


HAYES: So, I want to get to the law. This is a pet peeve of mine. The way our society talks about sex offenders and children is always in the terms of the scary stranger and never in the terms of what actually is the far more likely, which is the coach or the teacher or the priest or the caretaker. And it drives me insane.

STRANGIO: Yes, I mean, think what this all shows that is we grossly misunderstand how violence happens, we grossly misunderstand how abuse happens, and what we do instead is scapegoat and target vulnerable people, and in this case, trans people who are the most vulnerable people to abuse in bath rolls, in fact. That`s what we`re looking at right now and it`s devastating for the community.

HAYES: Yes. How was this -- has this -- how do you read the politics of this moment? Like, my read of it is that their internal polling in Indiana is telling them the base likes this.

STRANGIO: Yes, I think it`s hard to know what exactly is going on in terms of the politics. Obviously, McCrory in North Carolina believed that this was a sure-fire campaign issues. And he went full force, passing this law through a special session that targeted transgender people. And now, we`re in a crisis mode.

As far as I`m concerned, for the trans community, it doesn`t really matter what`s going on with the politics behind this because this really is reaching the level where people in North Carolina are scared, they`re not going to the bathroom. So it rings hollow when President Obama tells LGBT people in the U.K., for example, that they`re going to be treated just fine when they go to North Carolina and Mississippi, when in fact we know that people aren`t going to the bathroom and are fearing all sorts of policing.

HAYES: Do the folks you work with, that you hear from in your legal work, does it feel like a target`s on their back?

STRANGIO: Absolutely. I think transgender people have felt a target on their back for a very long time. And there is --

HAYES: They don`t need these laws to feel that way, right.

STRANGIO: We don`t need new laws to feel that way, trans people feel criminalized, targeted. Trans women of color are being assaulted on the street. (INAUDIBLE) was killed right here in New York because she was a black transwoman.

And then we have this new wave of legislation that`s making it even more scary to be a trans person. And, you know, my clients in North Carolina, for example, they are not going to the bathroom, which we know to be incredibly harmful. And they`re also fearing all sorts of policing, from actual law enforcement officers, but from other people in restrooms where they feel that they`re going to be assaulted when they`re just trying to go to the bathroom.

HAYES: Do you think that this represents a moment, essentially this fight as a political fight, is a fight that if one politically can actually push out the front tier of understanding equality, compassion, rights, et cetera?

STRANGIO: Yes, I mean, I think if we win it in the right way, it`s a matter of really putting forth trans people and saying, you know, take Ted Cruz`s despicable, distorted ad and saying, first of all, this is not about men and women`s bathrooms, this is about women in women`s bathrooms, transgender women.

So, we have to understand trans women are women. We have to put at the center of this conversation who we`re actually talking about so people aren`t afraid of that which is different and we don`t keep expelling transgendered people from public life. And I think if we do it that way, it will be (INAUDIBLE)

HAYES: To look at that Instagram photo going around yesterday in comparison to the ad, it`s just sort of the perfect obvious visual rejoinder.

STRANGIO: Yes, I mean, I think, you know, that "The Daily Show" did a piece recently about the absurdity of this trans panic and the reality is that so many trans people are living these completely innocuous, normal, boring lives. Here you have this fear-mongering that is completely counter to how we walk about in the world.

And it is very dangerous because it sends the message that a trans person is a predator, that a trans woman is not a woman. And that is precisely the rhetoric and understanding that people walk around in the world with that caused them to attack trans people for just existing. That is not where we need to be headed as a country.

HAYES: Chase, thank you so much for coming here, that was excellent.

STRANGIO: Thanks for having me.

HAYES: A look at some of the tributes to Prince that took place around the country last night, including this stunning performance from the Broadway cast of "The Color Purple." We`ll play it as an amazing moment right towards the end. So, stick around, right after the break.


HAYES: After we got off the air last night, the Prince tributes seemed like they were just getting under way. Thousands of fans packed the streets of downtown Minneapolis, not too far from the historic First Avenue Club where "Purple Rain" was filmed. In Brooklyn, filmmaker Spike Lee honored Prince with a dance party of his own.


HAYES: Meanwhile, the cast of the Broadway hit "Hamilton" paid their respects to Prince by just dancing to his 1984 hit "Let`s Go Crazy." Prince was one of several celebrities to see "Hamilton" and would give it a rave review, something a cast member Leslie Odom Jr. talked about with Stephen Colbert last night.


STEPHEN COLBERT, COMEDIAN: One guest came to the show a month ago. And this is -- it`s Prince, who called it "The best history class ever."


COLBERT: What a beautiful thing to have an artist of his caliber --


COLBERT: What does that mean to you and the other members of the cast to hear that even before the sad news of today, to know that someone like Prince, who`s been so influential, saw you dog something different?

ODOM: It`s humbling. And we don`t take it for granted at all. He sat right in the box with shades on the whole time. But it meant the world to us. Then Prince didn`t come backstage. He wasn`t big on stuff like that.

Then we were all waiting to see, did he like it? Did he care about it? And he sent that tweet.


HAYES: Broadway tributes didn`t end with "Hamilton." Jennifer Hudson and the cast of the Broadway version of "The Color Purple" performed a moving rendition of "Purple Rain." Take a listen to the moment when Hudson asked to cut the music and the whole room sings a cappella.


HAYES: What would you give to be able to sing like that? Or like Prince.

All across the country, people sang and danced and shared their favorite memories of prince, except for Republican presidential John Kasich who offered this slightly awkward response.


REPORTER: Can you comment on Prince`s death?

GOV. JOHN KASICH (R-OH), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: You know, I feel badly about the prince. Not really, though. I never really -- I never saw him in concert. That was a mistake for me not to have been able to follow -- to see him in concert, because he was an extraordinary musician.


HAYES: Coming up, how did President Obama celebrate prince`s legacy, in the same way many of us did this morning? That`s ahead.


HAYES: All right, big news. This Monday, I will host MSNBC`s exclusive town hall with Senator Bernie Sanders from Philadelphia. And it comes as the Sanders campaign is facing pressing questions about their strategy from here forward, whether they will stay in the race until the convention, even after everyone`s voted, even if their candidate is losing at that point in pledged delegates and overall votes.

Today, there`s word that key supporters of Sanders will meet in Chicago after the final primary, but before the convention to discuss the future of the movement.

There`s a vibrant conversation going on about what happens to the movement after the primaries are over, said Charles Lenchner, who co-founded the group People for Bernie, which is helping to organize the summit according to MSNBC`s Alex Seitz-Wald.

In the primary slated for Tuesday, Sanders is polling behind Clinton, according to recent polls and polling averages, but judging by one highly important metric, money, the Sanders campaign is doing just fine, outraising Hillary Clinton in fund-raising for the month of March as he did the previous month, pulling in $46 million, according to FEC filings.

He also pulled ahead of Clinton in total fundraising, this is in hard money, to the campaign, according to FEC data, as of March 31, with $182 million.

To repeat -- an insurgent candidates, a Democratic socialist, a man that basically no one put any money on to still be in the race at this point is ahead of Hillary Clinton, one of the most formidable fund-raisers in the history of modern politics in total fund-raising.

That figure does not include super PACs, of course. Money and support give Sanders a reason to keep fighting. Even if he doesn`t surpass Clinton in pledged delegates, his war chest makes it possible to realistically stay in the race until the convention. As do the tens of thousands of people who he continues to draw at his rallies.

In the Democratic primary eight years ago, there was different dynamic. Then-candidate Barack Obama was ahead in delegates as well as drawing record crowds and fundraising money. Meanwhile, Hillary Clinton`s 2008 campaign trailing Obama in delegates was badly in debt by the time she conceded the race to Obama.

The real reason so many campaigns end, most campaigns end, is they simply run out of money, or they lose. They can`t continue. The question is, what happens if your campaign is not running out of money?

Joining me now, Nick Confessore, political reporter for The New York Times

And start, I think, first with this question of just how -- I don`t know, extraordinary this fund-raising apparatus they put in place has been.

NICK CONFESSORE, THE NEW YORK TIMES: It`s the first time in history it`s happened, I think.

Look, Sanders runs on solar power. He`s the first candidate to run on solar power. He never runs out. His people give to him even if they don`t count as not looking good for him, he has -- and so the usual inducements to drop out, as you said earlier -- money or pressure from the party, are not going to apply to him.

HAYES: Right.

And remember, big-money donors, the kind of people who max out, give for two reasons: ideological support or personal support, and because they want to back the winner, right, which is part of the reason that you get a vicious cycle in most races, because as it becomes clear you`re not going to win, I mean, it`s like, why am I giving money to Jeb Bush? He`s not going to be next president of the United States.

Bernie Sanders supporters are not giving him money because they think -- because when he wins they`ll be able to call up Bernie Sanders.

CONFESSORE: Or have an ambassadorship or appointment to some post. His people believe in what he`s leaving in the movement and that is what makes him very different and formidable against Hillary Clinton.

In fact, I think when he has problems in the polls or problems in some of these states it actually makes people give him more money because they see that he needs it. And his whole message is built around needing and wanting just money, the grassroots, it isn`t like a half and half thing, or an add-on. It is the movement, the money is the movement.

HAYES: Right. Right. And there`s also the fact that one of the other things that complicates things is that Hillary Clinton has to still keep raising money. She doesn`t have the same -- she`s got donors who are tapped out, because they`ve maxed out. Bernie Sanders doesn`t have that issue.

As you go further along, it gets harder to raise because you`re working your way through the list of maxed-out donors.


So, she has to find new max-out donors for the primary all the time, to keep her numbers up. I mean, unless she can boost her small donors herself, and her numbers are not that bad. But otherwise she has to find new people, rich people, basically, who can give that maximum check.

And when they`ve given it, it`s done for the cycle, or for the primary.

HAYES: Right. And there`s the case that she has super PACs and he doesn`t. There`s the National Nurses Union, which has been doing some ads on this support, which is a super PAC. But, you know, those super PAC dollars, they don`t pay for staffers.

One of the things we`ve learned in this campaign is, hard money, right, counts for a lot because that`s actually what you run your campaign on.

CONFESSORE: And look, she has more cash on hand than Bernie Sanders, by the way, which no...

HAYES: And she spending less.

CONFESSORE: Exactly. Although she`s spending more than she`s raising each month this year, which is interesting that happens. She`s underwater.

But the game of chicken right here is that her super PAC does not want to spend its money on Bernie Sanders. This is the big advertising arm of the super PAC, correct the record, is spending money to oppose him.

But the big ads, the ads -- that has the $100 million in stock, right, is trying to save it for the general against the Koch Brothers.

And the question is how long will they wait and how bad does it have to get for them to pull the trigger on some money against Bernie Sanders?

HAYES: And I think that`s probably explains some of the frustration around the people in the Clinton circle, which is from their perspective, this is zero sum. And you, Bernie Sanders, who are not going to win the nomination, are taking resources from the fixed pie of what we can spend in the general.

CONFESSORE: Correct. The view of the Clinton world is you can`t win but you can keep raising money and forcing us to spend money. She has spent $20 million on ads in states that are not going to be in play in the general election. It`s not a lot against a billion-dollar campaign, but it begins to add up over time.

HAYES: And from Sanders` perspective, Sanders I think it`s fair to say he`s not looking for some big personal trade-in, right. He doesn`t want to be like secretary of state.


This usual back and forth. The also-rans kind of want a role in the new regime of some kind. He does not want that kind of role. I think he`s at the head of a movement that believes the party has to be pressured from the inside.

HAYES: And has substantive claims they want addressed.

CONFESSORE: And it`s a big difference, to have a movement around these four issues -- fracking, and Wall Street, a couple others, is a big difference from just a personality thing around a candidate.

HAYES: Yeah. Nick Confessore. Thank you, that was great.

A reminder, do not miss my exclusive town hall with Bernie Sanders in Philadelphia this Monday. That is going to be really interesting. It will be on the eve of that big primary Tuesday and it will be right here at 8:00 p.m.

Coming up, the stunning turn of events for my beloved and benighted baseball team that was even more stunning than it first appeared.

And later, the health care experiment in Colorado that`s so just crazy it just might work. Stay with us.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Here comes the 2-2. In the air. This should do it. Jason Hamler (ph) makes the catch, it`s a no hitter. Jake Arrieta has done it again.


HAYES: Thanks to the miracle of Jake Arrieta`s arm and technology and the MLB app on the iPhone, they are not paying me to say this, I sat on the stoop outside my house when I got home to watch the final inning of Jake Arrieta`s second no-hitter in his last 11 regular-season starts.

In a nail-biter, the Cubs scratched out a 16-0 win against The Reds at Cincinnati`s great American ballpark. A huge celebration followed as it is wont to do on the pitcher`s mound. Let`s play a little game of which of these things does not belong? The answer in 60 seconds.


HAYES: Following Jake Arrieta`s second career no-hitter last night, this was the celebration on the mound, a pile-on by member of the Chicago Cubs baseball team -- along with this guy, a fan wearing shorts and a white Cubs shirt who sprinted onto the field to share in the moment. After locking arms with the players, even reaching out to pat Arrieta`s head, he was eventually pulled away by Cincinnati police, arrested, and forced to finish celebrating from jail.

The fanatic has been identified as Dylan Cressie (ph), a student at Indiana University. And he was charged with criminal trespass. Cressie`s (ph) father, also a Cubs fan, didn`t seem too concerned, exuberantly telling the Chicago Tribune, "that`s my boy!"

Now, if Cressie (ph) has to mount a legal defense, may I just say the Chicago Cubs haven`t won a World Series in 108 years and they`re currently the best team in baseball. A 16-0 no-hitter could get anyone a little excited.


HAYES: This past week conservatives have been banging the drum over the news that United Health Care, the nation`s largest health insurer, is pulling out of federally run health insurance exchanges in several states because they say they`re losing money.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is the beginning of what could be an implosion or we could be pushing to single payer which might be the ultimate goal, correct?

UNIDENIIFED MALE: It`s imploding. It`s rupturing. It`s too expensive and it`s not delivering quality...


HAYES: Now, we have of course heard of Obamacare`s impending demise many times before, and many experts think this is by no means the death blow to the Affordable Care Act.

But on the other side of the spectrum, an under the radar story out of Colorado where this November that state could become the first to create a single payer health insurance system in lieu of the Affordable Care Act.

If voters pass it, Amendment 69, or Colorado Care, would give all Coloradoans health insurance and according to supporters would save $4.5 billion a year. It would be paid for by a payroll tax increase for both employees and employers.

Predictably lobbyists are already hard at work to defeat the plan. A fear of health care interests losing profits.

Joining me now Lee Fang, he`s investigative report for The Intercept who`s been covering all this. Is out with a new piece.

Lee, where did this come from?

LEE FANG, THE INTERCEPT: Hey, Chris. Thanks for having me.

There`s been a number of kind of very dedicated single payer activists all over the country. And they`ve been working methodically to build support for single payer. We`ve seen resolutions all across the country from cities and towns calling for single payer. But this is one of the first concrete steps to actually put that dream and make it a reality.

So this is a state ballot measure. As you mentioned, very underreported, under the radar, that would actually change the Colorado state constitution and set up a system that would allow for a true single payer system.

So that means anyone in Colorado who`s a resident, there will be no health insurance premiums, no deductibles, paid for through a payroll tax and provide basically all care -- that`s health care, dental care, everything from a doctor`s checkup to open-heart surgery.

HAYES: So there`s that great phrase about laboratory is a democracy. It comes from a Supreme Court opinion. And this seems like a great example, right. There`s a lot of back and forth, can single payer work, can it not?

Do advocates think that this is a sufficient scale for it to work or do you get all sorts of unintended consequences if you just set it up in one state?

FANG: Well, I mean, there`s a big debate over that, right? For a single payer system to be as successful as it could be it needs to be large, just like any health insurance pool.

So of course a national pool would be much more effective. It would be a stronger bargaining unit than of course a state or a county or a city. But this is an interesting step. If Colorado is successful in this endeavor, it could prove as an example for other states and maybe even the federal government.

HAYES: And how does it look on the other side of this? I can only imagine the amount of resources insurance companies would pour into trying to defeat something like this.

FANG: Yeah, so that`s what our story concerned. You know, this campaign is just getting started. And health insurance and other for-profit health care interests are doing everything they can to stop it.

In Colorado, for-profit hospital chain HCA through their trade association is already mobilizing opposition. A number of other health insurance broker trade groups and lobby group in the state are organizing and setting up opposition to this ballot measure.

And even in D.C., the National Health Insurance Broker Trade Association is working with its lobbyists to mobilize opposition so they can block this ballot measure before it spreads or succeeds.

HAYES: It`s going to be really interesting to see how it plays out. Lee, thanks a lot, have a great weekend.

All right, up next I`ll talk with the man who spent decades covering the extraordinary life and work of Prince and picked up some amazing stories along the way. That is right after this break. Don`t go anywhere.



BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I love Prince because -- he put out great music and he was a great performer. I didn`t know him well. He came to perform at the White House last year and was extraordinary. It`s a remarkable loss and I`m staying at Winfield House, the U.S. ambassador`s residence. It so happens our ambassador has a turntable so this morning we played Purple Rain and Delirious just to get warmed up before we left the house for important bilateral meetings like this.


HAYES: The president paying tribute to Prince during a meeting this afternoon with British Prime Minister David Cameron.

Meanwhile, Prince`s autopsy was completed today, his body released to his family. A sheriff`s office said his body showed no immediate signs of trauma and they have no reason to believe his death was a suicide.

In a press conference earlier Carver County Sheriff Jim Olsen said they`re no closer to determining what caused the death and that it could take weeks before any conclusive information is released.

Prince was found unresponsive in an elevator at his Paisley Park home yesterday morning. According to the sheriff`s office, deputies went through the house and it appeared Prince was alone at the time of his death.

Joining me, Jon Pareles, he`s chief music critic for The New York Times, wrote a fantastic piece of Prince called "A reinventor of his world and himself" around the time of the release of the album Emancipation, a title that alludes to Prince`s freedom from his contract with Warner Brothers. Great to have you here.

You know, there`s a lot of rumor mongering and speculation about Prince`s death, which I don`t want to engage in. What I do want say, though, is ask you is, some musicians have reputations for being basket cases, people who are in and out of rehab, who have substance problems. My sense is that that was not the way that people thought of Prince.

JON PARELES, NEW YORK TIMES: No, definitely not. I mean, from his youth he was a straight arrow. He was not a drug user. He was just -- music was everything to him. And you look at him on stage, he was athletic, he was young, he was in shape. He was just such a life force which is why this has been so shocking to everybody.

HAYES: It was interesting to watch the press conference today when the sheriff talking about Paisley Park as not just a home, but kind of this sort of community institution. They had concerts there. They had police provide security sometimes. You`ve been there a number of times.

PARELES: I`ve been there. It`s a giant place. I mean, it`s this $10 million complex. It`s a studio. I think Prince made it so that he could record any time of the day and night just like roll out of bed and turn on a recorder, and make a song, which is usually what he did most of his waking life when he wasn`t on a stage making songs.

HAYES: Yeah, he -- you`ve written about just how almost possessed, sort of compulsively possessed by music he was.

PARELES: I don`t know about possessed more than channeling. I mean, I think that this force is in all great artists, something is coming out of them. And I think Prince just had more of it than most. I mean, he was like Niagara Falls. He was an avalanche. He just -- he kept writing songs.

When I visited at Chanhassen at Paisley Park in 1996 he said there were more than 1,000 unreleased songs and that was 20 years ago.

So, you can imagine just the output. And he told me that he could basically envision a song completely at the moment he heard in his head, he could -- all the parts were there, "I hear all the singing, I hear all the dancing," he said.

And sometimes he had to record them, if he didn`t record them fast enough, another one would come along. He was just channeling music. He was a vessel for muse.

HAYES: He said this to you in a 1996 article you wrote on him, sometimes I stand in awe of what I do myself.

I feel like a regular person, but I listen to this and wonder, where did it come from? I believe definitely in the higher power that gave me this talent. If you go no the studio alone and come out with that, you`d do it every day, wouldn`t you?

PARELES: Yeah. And I think he did it every day. And there was so much of it. I mean, it was a problem for his career, because he fought with the record company not over not producing but over overproducing.

He wanted to put out stuff faster, he wanted to put out stuff as it came to him. And a typical music career is you put out an album, you tour it for a year or two, you put out another album. Prince wanted to put out triple albums and maybe another one later that year.

HAYES: And that was the initial fight with Warner Brothers, right, was essentially oversupplying the market, glutting the market with Prince music.


HAYES: When he is just saying basically, like I`m sitting here channeling this stuff. I need this to come out of me.

PARELES: Yeah, it was almost compulsive. But there was so much good stuff. I mean, even the stuff that is relegated to the ends of albums and the stuff that isn`t as good as the great stuff, there`s still such a musical mind going on. There`s great rhythms, there`s tunes. He`s funny, he`s smart.

He`s also very socially concerned. We think of Prince as this sex symbol, the guy who wrote the most lascivious song in the world. But also if you look through his career, there`s songs like Sign of the Times, which is one of the first songs about AIDS in 1987.

In 2004, he wrote a very pointed specific Arab discrimination song Cinnamon Girl.

And just last year he went to Baltimore and played that concert and wrote the song about Baltimore.

HAYES: I was just learning yesterday, there was some great article about he was writing so many songs, he was writing songs for other people as well.

I learned yesterday that Manic Monday is a Prince song from The Bengals, which I had no idea. Nothing Compares to You, which is a song I absolutely love, I knew was a Prince song. Of course Sinead O`Connor had a big hit with it.

But it`s like he`s writing so many songs he`s just literally giving them away.

PARELES: Well, I mean, he didn`t even initially record Nothing Compares to You. It was recorded by a group called The Family. It`s just -- here`s a Prince song, you know, it happens to be a great song, but I don`t have room for it on my album, go ahead and record it.

HAYES: He also -- I mean, I was watching some old interviews, in relation with his parents, his father particularly. He was so technically adept. And there`s a sense in which like he was this genius. But he came from a musical family. And his father really like -- he talked about -- basically being drilled in music by his dad.

PARELES: He was. But the discipline was always there. I mean, his high school newspaper interviewed him about being a music star. He was already in high school good enough to be getting attention as our great musician.

And he started writing songs when he was 7. He just had it in him.

And there is incredible discipline involved in being a musician that involves being alone and practicing and learning your instrument. And he did that. And one of the great things about him was he was good at both this incredibly solitary practice of making a song all by himself, playing every instrument, singing every vocal by himself in the studio, night after night. But then he would go out in this -- into an arena and touch everybody in that public arena.

HAYES: Jon Pareles, thanks so much for joining us tonight. I really appreciate it.

PARELES: Yeah, thanks for having me.

HAYES: That is All In for this evening.