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All In With Chris Hayes, Transcript 4/1/2016

Guests: Ari Berman, Michelle Alexander, Norm Ornstein, A.J. Delgado, Ken Blackwell, Michelle Goldberg, Nick Confessore

Show: ALL IN with CHRIS HAYES Date: April 1, 2016 Guest: Ari Berman, Michelle Alexander, Norm Ornstein, A.J. Delgado, Ken Blackwell, Michelle Goldberg, Nick Confessore


KARL ROVE, REPUBLICAN POLITICAL CONSULTANT: A fresh face might be the thing that could give us a chance to turn this election and win in November against Hillary.

HAYES: The GOP suddenly not so secret plot to stop Trump.

ROVE: There will be a lot of acrimony from the people who were seeking the nomination.

HAYES: Will it unite the two front-runners and will the Republican establishment try to go back to the future?

Then, new signs that candidate Sanders is here to stay.


HAYES: As Clinton`s frustration is on display.

HILLARY CLINTON, (D) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I am so sick of the Sanders campaign lying about me. I`m sick of it.

HAYES: Plus, the author of the new Jim Crow on Clinton versus Sanders. They`re really good news about the economy you probably haven`t heard and why this is a landmark day for this program.

When "All In" starts right now.

HAYES: Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes. A remarkable symbol of this bizarro world political season tonight in an international Nuclear Security Summit hosted by President Obama where the biggest wild card just might be the Republican presidential front-runner. During a press conference in the last hour, the President was asked about Donald Trump`s recent comments on letting more country get nuclear weapons and refusing to rule out nuking Europe. The President said he`s had to reassure America`s allies.


BARACK OBAMA, UNITED STATE OF AMERICA PRESIDENT: They tell us that the person who made the statements doesn`t know much about foreign policy or nuclear policy or the Korean peninsula or the world generally. It came up on the sidelines. I`ve said before that, you know, people pay attention to American elections. What we do is really important to the rest of the world.


HAYES: President went on to describe how the international community depends on the U.S. for certain amounts of stability and seriousness.


OBAMA: Even in those countries that are used to a carnival atmosphere in their own politics wants sobriety and clarity when it comes to U.S. elections because they understand the President of United States needs to know what`s going on around the world and has to put on place the kinds of policies that lead not only to our security and prosperity but will have an impact on everybody else`s security and prosperity.


HAYES: Joining me now, Norm Ornstein, co-author of "It`s Even Worse Than It Was, How the American Constitutional System Collided with the New Politics of Extremism".

It is pretty remarkable having to watch the president convening a nuclear summit to talk about de-escalation, nonproliferation, et cetera, and having to deal with a leading candidate not taking nuking Europe off the table.

NORM ORNSTEIN, "IT`S EVEN WORSE THAN IT WAS" CO-AUTHOR: And not giving nuclear weapons to Korea and Japan which has been an enormous issue since the end of the Second World War and certainly the end of the Korean War.

I tell you, Chris. I`ve been watching presidential politics closely for five decades. I have never seen a candidate, and that includes Pat Paulson, the comedian, who ran for president with less basic knowledge of public policy, whether it`s foreign policy or domestic policy than Donald Trump. And he could vamp and basically make it up as he went along for a while, but as we`ve gotten closer focus on him, it`s starting to blow back.

HAYES: Does the precariousness or the seeming precariousness of American governance to this moment particularly with the underlying structural factors, you described in that book the way that our constitutional system and the sort of increasing partisan polarization, particularly on the right have collided. Do people around the world take note of that?

ORNSTEIN: Yes, they do. And I`d found in my discussion with diplomats and even my travels abroad that what President Obama said today is absolutely right. People follow American politics more closely during an election campaign than they do other countries.

And there`s a deep concerned out there now. It`s a concern, I have to say, that transcends the presidential race, although there`s an acute focus because of Trump and Cruz to a significant degree. But it`s also the dysfunction in Congress and its relations with the president, the inability to be sure when we make a commitment that we`re going to be able to follow through.

The sense that this really is closer to gridlock than we`ve had in many decades and that is of concerned and let`s face it. Other countries are going through their own periods of dysfunction including in Europe and in Asia. They want the U.S. to at least be a little bit more of a rock than we are.

HAYES: How close to some really kind of cataclysmic level of dysfunction do you really think we are?

ORNSTEIN: Well, you know, we have to put this into some context. The economic news has been quite extraordinarily good including a jobs report that shows that real incomes are starting to inch up a little bit and more people are coming back into the workforce. We`re doing better in many ways than the rest of the world.

But I`m deeply concerned. And what I see happening now is something that I`ve feared for several years. And Tom Mann and I, you know, were pretty much ahead of the curve on this one that you have a Republican Party that is veered off the rails. And it is to considerable extent of self- inflicted wound and they don`t know how to get out of it. They don`t know how to get out of it with the Supreme Court nomination. They don`t know how to get out of it with the budget. Paul Ryan, now struggling with his own right-wing freedom caucus. They don`t know how to get out of a presidential race without mayhem on their hands.

And all of this is not just affecting Republicans, it`s affecting governance in country. It`s a very worrisome time.

HAYES: All right. Norm Ornstein, thank you so much for your time tonight. Appreciate it.

ORNSTEIN: Sure, Chris. Thank you.

HAYES: Now, with Donald Trump`s poll numbers hitting new loads across about just every demographic. Republican power brokers are openly considering what until now had been the stuff of conspiracy to recent back from whispers, chucking the current candidates and starting over.

Here was Karl Rove in an interview yesterday with conservative radio host, Hugh Hewitt.


ROVE: If we have somebody who we think has, has been battle tested, and has strong conservative principles and the ability to articulate them, and they are nominated at this convention, there will be a lot of acrimony from the people who are seeking the nomination.

Look, Donald Trump excites a lot of enthusiasm. But he also excites a lot of anger within the Republican Party and outside of the Republican Party. And a fresh face might be the thing that could give us chance to turn this election and win in November against Hillary.


HAYES: Fresh Face. Keep that phrase in mind. Right-wing Twitter promptly exploded after Rove`s comment and even the friendly folks of Fox News where Rove is a long time contributor were up in arms over the idea.


ROVE: It`s going to be hard for people who have such strongly felt opinions about the other candidates in the race to say, "Well, yeah, I`m going to go for him and some fresh face may cost, it was say .


. I don`t want to go for Charles Payne.

CHARLES PAYNE, FOX NEWS BUSINESS HOST: The only thing though, I was say, Karl, the only thing that`s going to be harder is if someone gets this nomination that`s not named Trump or Cruz, I think it`d be a disaster.


HAYES: And an interview with Chuck Todd this morning, Trump supporter, Ben Carson predicted apocalyptic results. And through a Republican Party tries to block Trump at the convention.


BEN CARSON, (R) FMR. PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Hopefully, between now and then they will come to understand that if they try to undermine the will of the people, they will have not only destroyed their party but they will fundamentally change the United States of America.


HAYES: Now, if Trump loses Tuesday`s primary in Wisconsin, something that`s looking increasingly likely according to the latest polls. He faces an uphill battle to reach that magic number of 1237 delegates needed to win the nomination on the first ballot at the Republican convention this summer.

And because Trump is significantly trailing in the behind of the scenes delegate wrangling and still doesn`t seem to fully understand how the nominating process works, as Five Three Eight`s Nate Silver puts today, "It`s probably first ballot or bust for Donald Trump in Cleveland."

Now, political reports that more than 100 of Trump`s own bound delegates are already poised to break with him if it goes to a second ballot when they`re free to vote their conscience. With all those votes, potentially up for grabs in a contested convention, Trump and Cruz now have a shared interest in making sure they`re the only two candidates in the running.

You see at the 2012 convention, Republicans adopted an obscure rule, 40B, requiring candidates who have received a majority of delegates in at least eight states to be formally submitted for the nomination. It was originally pushed by Tim Romney in hopes of keeping Ron Paul out of the mix.

Right now Donald Trump`s the only candidate who meets the rule 40B threshold. But the RNC`s Rule Committees could decide to rewrite it when they meet a week before the convention. And at least, four committee members are reportedly eager to scrap it altogether.

Ted Cruz is apparently confident enough of likewise being able to qualify for that threshold by July that he is arguing along with Trump`s people that rule 40B should be left in place ensuring that he and Trump are the only eligible candidates.


TED CRUZ, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I think that would be a terrible idea for the Washington power brokers to change the rules because they`re unhappy with the candidates who the voters are voting for. They want to change the rules to try to parachute in some candidate who hasn`t earned the votes of the people. That is nothing short of crazy.


HAYES: The rule 40B default by the way aside, it would pave the way for Karl Rove`s in support (ph), "Fresh face to save the day.`` And if that face sounds familiar, allow me to take you back to last talk.


REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY, HOUSE MAJORITY LEADER: The one thing I`ve always said to earn this majority was service. We should put this conference first. And I think there`s something to be said for us to unite. We probably need a fresh face.


HAYES: That was House Majority Rep. Kevin McCarthy dropping out of the race for speaker after John Boehner announced his retirement. And the fresh face he was referring to turned out to be no other than former Vice Presidential candidate, Paul Ryan. You may recall that when Ryan`s name was first floated, he and his office repeatedly and unequivocally shot down the idea.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you running for speaker?



RYAN: Because I don`t want to be speaker.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is it fair to say that you`re reconsidering the statement you put out?

RYAN: My statement stands and I haven`t changed anything.


HAYES: Of course, we all know how that one turned out. Now with the GOP potentially on the market for a white knight once again, Ryan insists it absolutely will not be him.

Someone might want to tell the speaker that betting markets rate him as the fourth likely as candidate to win the nomination right behind the three candidates who are actually running for president.

Joining me now, Conservative Columnist A.J. Delgado, Trump supporter and former Ohio Secretary of State, Ken Blackwell, now a Senior Advisor to the anti-Trump, Our Principles PAC.

And A.J., I`ll begin with you. How concerned are you about essentially a plot at the convention to install someone like a Paul Ryan?

A.J. DELGADO, COLUMNIST AND TRUMP SUPPORTER: I`m not all that concerned about it actually happening because I`m confident that Mr. Trump will win the 1237 in the nomination out right. That said, I think we`ve always suspected this kind of power plays and plans we`re going on.

You know, the Karl Rove and his lot are planning to, as Cruz said, parachute in Mitt Romney who has so desperately after all these years still wants the nomination even though he`s wildly unpopular. And their other option is Paul Ryan whose biggest platform and biggest pushed has always been open borders and amnesty. You could not be at bigger odds with the base that just shown this year that that`s our biggest issue.

So, you have these two candidates that are nothing more than the antitheist of what the base wants. The fresh face in this election is Donald Trump.

For the establishment to think that they could do something akin to, you know, at the Super Bowl, they have the Patriots and the Giants, they don`t score X amount of points, then let`s just scrap everything and start all over and, you know, give the trophy to the Miami Dolphins. That`s basically what they`re talking about doing here, that`s the top two don`t reach a certain threshold, then let`s just start all over. Somebody who hasn`t campaigns, hasn`t done anything this election season, it`s absurd. And the people will not stand for it. Not one bit.

HAYES: Mr. Blackwell, Josh Marshal had a column today, I thought that was interesting where he basically said, "Look, elections are more about legitimacy than they are about rules." And it is true, the rules of the rules. I mean, you got to get a majority of delegates and then there`s all the rules that guide it.

But in there real legitimacy problem if the person who arrives in Cleveland with the most amount of delegates doesn`t end up being the nominee?

KEN BLACKWELL, SENIOR ADVISOR, OUR PRINCIPLES PAC: Look, I think it`s going to be a contested primary. And let me just say to A.J., I think what we are watching is folks letting some of the air out of the Trump tire. He has an inflated ego. He has an inflated net worth and exaggerated financial independence and he has an inflated knowledge of world events and apparently, the Republican platform.

He would not have been in trouble with Chris Matthews if he had just said, "I embrace the Republican platform of 2012." And the reality is I don`t believe he is ready because he`s not been a Republican for a very long time. And he, in fact, does not a conservative.

So, I think the shake out of a contested primary will produce a winner from the two contestant -- contesting front-runners in this process and it happens to be Cruz or Mr. Trump.

HAYES: Well .

BLACKWELL: I just don`t think that he is going to be able to last. I don`t think he`s going to be able to last.

HAYES: . well A.J., I want to get your response a second but let me just follow-up with you Mr. Blackwell. What is it say about the Republican Party that someone you say hasn`t been a Republican, isn`t a conservative and manifestly doesn`t know what he`s talking about, according do you. He, today, has a new comment about abortion that seems to make him sound pro- choice. What it is say to you that that`s the man who`s kicked the butts of about 14 other candidates from the Republican Party including numerous sitting governors and all sorts of other folks?

BLACKWELL: I think the reason that Ted Cruz and Donald Trump have emerged as the front-runners is because folks are frustrated with the inability of Republican majorities in the House and the Senate to deliver on their campaign promises and the agenda and platform that they embraced in 2012 and 2014. And it created an opening, very simple.

HAYES: A.J., I want to ask you about these polling numbers. I mean, there`s a -- the headline today in the "L.A. Times" is this guy, Donald Trump`s on track to be the least popular American politician in 30 years. He`s hugely underwater with women, he`s underwater with millennials, he`s now underwater with white men, according to the latest polling. I mean, should it not concern you, Trump supporters and also the Republican Party, to inherit a nominee who is so broadly and wildly unpopular. Don`t they have a good argument to try to replace him with someone who`d have a better shot?

DELGADO: Chris, you know those poll numbers can be twisted anyway. The polls that count are the ones of the primaries that have happened. And for instance, you have the so-called polls in the media right now showing that Donald Trump is wildly unpopular with women, when it`s simply not true. Look at the primaries that have occurred and the majority of them, he`s won the female vote. So he doesn`t have a problem with really any demographic.

HAYES: Right, but his won of them among -- well, that`s the problem, A.J., right? His won them among the relatively small part of the electorate that shows up for Republican primaries.

DELGADO: OK. Let`s talk about general election poll numbers. Once each party has decided in their respective candidate, once you guys decide between Hillary and Bernie and we decide between Trump and Cruz or whoever else that maybe, and then we can look. Once the American public has poll question of who do you like between Trump and .

HAYES: So you`re not concerned by those numbers?

DELGADO: . no, not at all. I think he`s doing great. I mean, look at the national polling. Look at the different demographics. He`s fine right now on track for the nomination and then once him or Hillary or him versus Bernie, then those polls can make sense. But right now, it`s silly to look at national head to head polling between the Republican or the Democratic nominee because we don`t know who they`ll be yet. It`s a silly hypothetical.

HAYES: Mr. Blackwell, let me ask you about that what you said before about, you think it will be Cruz or Trump. Do you basically hope to see those basic rules left in place like rule 40B that was essentially making impossible for the Karl Rove fresh face scenario, the white night, the Paul Ryan to ride in? Do you think that would be illegitimate and it should be one of those two, if those are the two that show off the convention in the most delegates?

BLACKWELL: I think the people who will spoke into the ballot box and it should be one of those. It should be one of those two. And let me just puncture the balloon, the trial balloon. Paul Ryan is a friend of mine, but Paul Ryan isn`t a fresh face. He is a veteran of Washington and inside the beltway.

HAYES: That is true, although he is freshly shaved. And the only reason I always -- we were playing a little of a Paul Ryan fan fiction was we were going back and looking at his spokesperson, Brendan Buck`s denials about the speakership where he basically kept saying, "Not going to happen, not going to happen. You guys are crazy. This is ridiculous journalist." A week later, he`s a speaker. So you never know.

A.J. Delgado, Ken Blackwell, thank you both.

DELGADO: Thank you.

HAYES: Coming up, as Wisconsin residents head to the polls on Tuesday, a new voter I.D. law could block 300,000 people from casting ballots.

We`ll discuss Scott Walker`s solution to a problem that never existed.

But first, Bernie Sanders logs in astounding fund raising month as frustration from Hillary Clinton boils over on the trail.


CLINTON: I`m so sick. I am so sick of the Sanders campaign lying about me. I`m sick of it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I agree with you (inaudible) on how the vote.




SANDERS: Well, Secretary Clinton owes us an apology. We were not lying. We were telling the truth. The truth is -- the truth is that Secretary Clinton has relied heavily on funds, from lobbyist working for the oil, gas and coal industry.


HAYES: Tonight, Bernie Sanders is escalating a dispute with Hillary Clinton over donations in the fossil fuel industry. In another sign, his campaign shows no indications of letting up on the former Secretary of State even though she has a pledged delegate lead that is mathematically difficult, no, certainly not impossible for Sanders to overcome.

Right now, the senator from Vermont is leading in Wisconsin, where voters head to the polls on Tuesday and his campaign just raised a truly astonishing $44 million in March alone. The enthusiasm for his candidacy showing no signs of letting up. And only 20,000 people showing up in his rally in the Bronx last night, where he avoided mentioning Donald Trump instead focused squarely on Clinton and how she funds her campaign.

Hours earlier, a Greenpeace activist had confronted Clinton at another event in New York about donations from the fossil fuel industry.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Will you act on your word to reject fossil fuel money as feature on your campaign?

CLINTON: I do not. I have money from people who work for fossil fuel companies. I am so sick. I am so sick of the Sanders campaign lying about this. I`m sick of it.


HAYES: After Bernie Sanders tonight say, "Clinton owed his campaign an apology", Clinton world shot back with a statement saying, "We will not apologize for calling out these kinds of schemes for what they are, a desperate move from a campaign that has clearly decided, the only hope for path to victory is through misleading attacks.``

Joining me now, Michelle Goldberg, Columnist of "Slate", Nick Confessore, Political Reporter at "The New York Times``.

Michelle, it seems to me that the Clinton folks are in an interesting spot here because at one level I think the Clinton people will tell you, "Look, this is the way the system works, and we want to win and the way that we win is we raise money from all sorts of people", right?

MICHELLE GOLDBERG, COLUMNIST FOR SLATE: Right, that`s kind of the center or I mean, the gist of the attacks on her from the left or that she partakes of the system as it is. And that she sort of accepts the status quo and feels like she has to maneuver within it. So kind of saying, "This is how things work. We raise money from all sorts of people." That is her argument but it`s also -- but it`s not a particularly winning political argument.

You know, one of the people that she`s being tarred (ph) for him raising money for her Super PAC is Tony Pedesta.

HAYES: Right.

GOLDBERG: You know, the brother of the .

HAYES: John Pedesta.

GOLDBERG: . right, the brother of the chairman of her campaign. And so, you know, he`s a lobbyist. He has a lot of different clients. I think it`s a little misleading to say that he is -- that the money that he raises kind of it`s coming from the fossil fuel industry. It could be coming from, you know, because he does raise so -- he does represent so many of her people. Some .

HAYES: All sorts of industries.

GOLDBERG: . right. Some sinister, some not.

HAYES: Right.

GOLDBERG: So it`s a very -- right, it`s not a defense. It`s a hard thing to parse, but .

HAYES: Right.

GOLDBERG: . at the same time, I do think that what`s coming from Sanders is misleading. It`s misleading but it`s very difficult to defend against.

HAYES: Well, OK, so here`s just a sort of Kohlberg (ph) and strikes (ph) here, right? So, no one -- no industries giving hard money donations to anyone because that`s illegal.


HAYES: So first that -- there`s that.

CONFESSORE: No company.

HAYES: No company, right? So when we talk about industries, we are taking about people that work for different industries. And now, there`s two categories, right? It could be just like, I`m an oil engineer in Houston and I love Hillary Clinton or it could be Exxon executives get together and they all write checks. And those things both happen. They both show up in the recordings as like, "Oh, you got money from this industry." In fact, Bernie Sanders is $50,000 from the oil gas industry, right?

CONFESSORE: Right, right.

HAYES: But those are two different phenomenon and particularly when we`re talking about lobbying bundling, that`s when we`re talking about an annexes of influence that`s much more problematic from the perspective or reformers.

CONFESSORE: Correct. Look, pulling back a bit. The oil and gas industry is among the most partisan industries in the country. It is the Hollywood of the right. It is almost all money at the Federal level to Republicans. So, Democratic candidates for president are not big favorites of oil and gas.

HAYES: Let me just give the numbers here. Clinton raised over 300,000 from the fossil and fuel -- the fossil fuel industry. She raised 21 million from securities investment just to give people a sense of the scale.

CONFESSORE: And the corporate PACs which raised money from the executives these companies and then give it to candidates are also not giving a lot of money or any I think to these two candidates.

But, Hillary Clinton does partake in the system that Bernie Sanders is critiquing and he has the ability to critique it because he is not relying on it at all, and that`s the power of his critique. He`s not taking money from lobbyist. And by the way, she made the decision to accept money from lobbyists and they decided that the optics or the messaging problem or the visibility problem of taking that money was not -- was fine for them and the money was better. Mostly because it was the best of what happens, right?

GOLDBERG: But the one thing I want to say is that, I mean, when it comes to optics, right, Hillary Clinton refused to sign a campaign pledge not to take money from fossil fuel from fossil fuel industry. Bernie Sanders .

HAYES: That -- this is what Greenpeace was pushing in this, what they`re advocating for in that video.

GOLDBERG: Bernie Sanders signed the pledge.

HAYES: Right.

GOLDBERG: Both of them took money from people in the fossil fuel industry and get somehow this is a story about kind of Hillary Clinton`s shadiness and dishonesty. If it had been reversed that Hillary Clinton had signed the pledge and then taken the money, even last money, I think that they would -- this would all be a story about how you can`t trust anything that Hillary Clinton says.

HAYES: Right. And just to be clear about this. When we say they both took money, I mean, you can go to open sequence at right now and you could look it up by industry. There`s $50,000 and donations of Bernie Sanders.

Again, my sense is those are coming from what Hillary Clinton in her response at workers, right, people that happen to work in this industry.

GOLDBERG: OK, but I think in that`s part -- I mean, we`re talking about -- when you`re talking about to her campaign as opposed to the Super PACs .

HAYES: Right.

GOLDBERG: . you`re also having that $300,000, right? You know .

HAYES: Right.

GOLDBERG: . it`s not nothing but that`s not a huge amount of money especially in the context of their -- of the money that`s being -- that they`re throwing around here.

HAYES: What I would say though is the problem ends up being when you, I mean, Sanders is obviously really focused on this issue, right? And the problem that becomes making an argument about the system`s broken because it creates undue influence. But in my particular case, it`s not undue in for doesn`t exist which is the position that Hillary Clinton ends up sort of having to argue.

CONFESSORE: Yeah, and she said her hands are clean. Poll system is rotten and corrupt. We have to have a 10 point plans to tear it down and rebuild it. But I`m not corrupt, right?

HAYES: Right.

CONFESSORE: And so, it`s hard to take both sides of the argument, of course, every other Democrat in the world takes both sides of that argument. Bernie Sanders .

HAYES: Including the President .

CONFESSORE: . yeah, including the President.

HAYES: . who she points to and says he passed the Wall Street reform bill to the banks, still to this day, hate more than anything and, you know, took money from them. So it`s not impossible.

CONFESSORE: Yeah. So it`s a neat privilege of Bernie Sanders in relying entirely on these small donors to make that critique.

HAYES: And that`s what is -- in some ways the sort of hidden story we`re not in. So I mean they raised $44 million. Again, they`re not going anywhere and those small dollar donors you can go back to again and again and again, they`re not next out.

Michelle Goldberg, Nick Confessore, thanks for being here. Appreciate it.

Donald Trump has in fact checkers working on overdrive for about a year now. But what he said about the unemployment rate just might take the cake. That`s just ahead.


HAYES: When people here in the U.S. first started hearing about ISIS, it was largely because of these insane videos were being posted to the internet. Well, edited high production value propaganda videos that shocked the world and turned ISIS into a terrifying ideological force the world over. It`s like nothing else the world had ever seen and tonight, MSNBC has a whole documentary about just that.


BARACK OBAMA, U.S. PRESIDENT: As the internet arises the distance between countries, we see growing efforts by terrorists to poison the minds of people like the Boston Marathon bombers and the San Bernardino killers.

ALBERTO FERNANDEZ, VICE-PRESIDENT OF THE MIDDLE EAST MEDIA RESEARCH INSTITUTE: Ironically, the west, in the space, in this narrow space is out numbered.

HAYES: A cyber battle for hearts and minds.

WILLIAM MCCANTS, SENIOR FELLOW IN THE CENTER FOR MIDDLE EAST POLICY: In terms of recruiting, in terms of getting their message across, Islamic State is walking away with the ball.


HAYES: "ISIS and the Internet" debuts tonight at10:00 p.m. Eastern right here on MSNBC.

Later in the show what has Bernie Sanders saying things like this.


SANDERS: I say to Governor Walker and the other cowardly Republican Governors, if you are afraid of a free and fair election, get out of politics. Get another job.


HAYES: Now, Scott Walker and other Republicans disenfranchise as many as 300,000 Wisconsin voters, coming up.



BERNIE SANDERS, (D) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Let`s send a very strong message to Governor Walker. Let`s show Governor Walker that his voter suppression efforts will not work.


CHRIS HAYES, "ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES" HOST: Ahead of the Wisconsin primary on Tuesday, Bernie Sanders has repeatedly criticized Wisconsin Republican Governor Scott Walker for voter suppression effort, specifically for signing a law requiring voters in state to show photo identification when they go to the polls.


SANDERS: It has never occurred to me, not for one second to try to figure out a way to keep people from voting because they might be voting against me.


HAYES: But, according to Scott Walker, Sanders has it all wrong.


SCOTT WALKER, GOVERNOR OF WISCONSIN: So we make it easy to vote. You can Sunday with the voter registration. He used to get to have that I.D. along with, but we also make it hard to cheat. That`s the difference. He should look at the facts.


HAYES: All right, let`s look at the facts. Here`s the fact that despite dire warnings of voter fraud, a Wisconsin federal district court judge ruled that the law defenders and I`m quoting here, "Could not point to a single instance of known voter impersonation occurring in Wisconsin at any time in the recent past." Not one.

And the fact that is Ari Berman is right the nation of the law could block 300,000 registered voters from the polls. That`s 9 percent of the electorate with voters of color and student voters disproportionately affected.

Already, people are being forced to stand in long lines to cast early ballots in Wisconsin. Thanks in part to the voter I.D. requirement. And the problem is only expected to be worse on Election Day on Tuesday.

And just this morning on the final day of early voting, a statewide voter registration system crashed causing delays in voting. There are also reports that people couldn`t get I.D. cards at the DMV during the outage. The I.D. cards, of course, they needed to vote.

Joining me now, Ari Berman, Senior Writer for The Nation and is author of "Give Us the Ballot: Of Modern Struggle for Voting Rights in America".

Tell me about this Wisconsin law. Why do you think it`s problematic?

ARI BERMAN, SENIOR WRITER FOR THE NATION: Well, it`s a really bad situation. We saw the five-hour lines in Arizona that caught a lot of people by surprise. This is more like a slow building hurricane, which is we know it`s coming but now that it`s here it`s really bad.

300,000 registered voters as you mentioned don`t have a government issued I.D. There`s a clear racial disparity. Blacks and Hispanics are two to three times is likely do not have that I.D. Students are impacted because most universities and colleges, who can`t use their student I.D. to vote. They have to issue separate IDs which is a whole process for students .

HAYES: So, student -- a student at Madison at University of Wisconsin or in Spring Green can`t just use their student I.D. to vote?

BERMAN: No. I mean, the Wisconsin .

HAYES: Even though that the state entity, obviously. They know who that person is and where they live?

BERMAN: The Wisconsin legislature brought out the rules that you need to signature and a two-year expiration date knowing that no student IDs have that. So that`s University of Wisconsin Madison have to print different IDs for their 43,000 students to be able to vote in this primary in November.

HAYES: What do you think is going to happen this fall? I mean, you`ve been covering this for me a while now and we`re now going to run this experiment. I think we saw a little window in Arizona

On Tuesday we`re going to see what happen in Wisconsin. The thing I`m terrified is we have one day in November where we`re going to try to run the experiment with all these new laws without the oversight of a certain section of Voting Rights Act. I mean, what`s going to happen?

BERMAN: It`s going to be much worse in November. It`s the first presidential election in 50 years without the full protections of the Voting Rights Act. 16 states, including crucial battleground states like Wisconsin have new voting restrictions.

Turn outs, it`s going to be higher. There`s going to be many more highly contested races not just the presidential race, but all the down ballot races and not only that, but Republicans are going to be trying to disenfranchise Democrats in a way that they`re not trying to do now.

Now, Republicans have enough trouble within their own party.

HAYES: Right.

BERMAN: But you look at, whether it`s Donald Trump or Ted Cruz, they`re relying on conservative white voters to win. Meaning, they don`t want a large turn out from young voters, from voters of color, their very people that are impacted by laws like Wisconsin Voter ID Law.

HAYES: This seems one of those cases in which it`s s a pure power play. The argument about voter fraud seems to have been sort of definitive loss. I mean, there`s been sort of empirical study after empirical study after empirical study. You could record (ph) filings.

You can have -- and, you know, in Kansas they commissioned right a big investigation. They come up with a dozen or five examples, three examples here. And here, it doesn`t seem to matter because it`s not really about persuasion.

BERMAN: Well, this is about power in the first place. I mean, Republicans took power in 2010. They were determined to keep it. This is how they tried to keep power. They didn`t present a single case of voter impersonation in court. They even try to present evidence about it.

They just keep saying it so much that people think it`s real. But, if you look at in Wisconsin, it`s not just voter I.D. They have cut early voting on nights and weekends. They`ve made it harder to register voter. They`ve made it harder to be a resident of the state.

In the first, to be able to vote you have to live there a longer period of time now than you did before to be able to vote. All of these things combine to really be a perfect storm of voter suppression in Wisconsin.

HAYES: Do you think we`ll see problems on Tuesday itself that might actually, like we saw in Arizona, provide some sort of trigger for reform in the interim between what happens in the primary and the general?

BERMAN: We could. I mean, the only good thing that came of the five-hour lines in Arizona is it made everyone wake up to the fact that the Voting Rights Act was gutted. These are the kind of problems we`re going to see as a result of this.

I hope that we don`t see this, but we`re already seeing cases. I`ve already written about cases in Wisconsin and many other places, people who don`t have IDs. They just can`t vote on Tuesday.

It`s not a question. They can wait five hours. They still won`t be to vote. They`re not showing up on Tuesday. Other people will show up. They think they`ll be able to vote, but we don`t know if their votes are counted. We don`t if they have the right I.D. There`s lots of problems that could potentially be on Tuesday and then obviously in November.

HAYES: That night of Arizona, I was watching that footage and I`m saying to myself, what if this was the state that was deciding state in a presidential -- contested presidential election that was one ala Florida in 2000 by a tiny percentage of the votes or hundred of votes or dozens of votes and those lines persisted.

No one would accept that as a legitimate outcome and that`s the really, really high stakes terrifying thing we might be headed towards.

Ari Berman, always a pleasure. Thank you.

BERMAN: Thank you.

HAYES: Still ahead, renowned author, Michelle Alexander joins me to explain why she says, "Hillary Clinton doesn`t deserve the black vote."


HAYES: Jobs report came out today as it does the first Friday of every month. The numbers were good. We`ll get to that. But first, you may remember days like today were huge news just four years ago.

Basically treated as a score card for President Obama leading up to his election and when the job numbers were good, some of the right contended those numbers for cooked.

In October of 2012, one month before the election when the unemployment rate for September dipped below 8 percent for the first time since the great recession. Former General Electric CEO, Jack Welch famously tweeted, ""Unbelievable job numbers. These Chicago guys will do anything. Can`t debate so change numbers?" But, Welch wasn`t alone.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you think they changed the numbers?

DONALD TRUMP, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I do. I do and I think that they did a lot of those, a lot of monkey business and I`m telling you in a month and a half from now, they will do a readjustment like has been happening for the last year and a half. They will do a readjustment and the number will be 8.2 or more.

Now, the 8.2 is not a real number either. The real number is between 16 and 21 percent. If you`re looking for a job and you give up, you no longer in that number, they take you out.


HAYES: Now, if you think that`s an exaggeration, wait until you hear what he`s saying this time around now that he`s running for president. We`ll be back with that in just 60 seconds.


HAYES: As he wavers around on abortion taking, apparently every side of the issue, we should note there`s at least one position Donald Trump has not wavered on. He is consistently a full on unemployment number truther.

In 2012 when President Obama was running for re-election, Trump said the real employment number is probably between 16 and 21 percent. He is now made some adjustments.


TRUMP: I`ve seen numbers of 24 percent. I actually saw a number of 42 percent unemployment, 42 percent. The unemployment rate is probably 20 percent, but I will tell you, you have some great economists that will tell you it`s 30, 32 and the highest I`ve heard so far is 42 percent.

The number is probably 28, 29, as high as 35. In fact, I even heard recently 42 percent.


HAYES: 42 percent. Of course, there are underemployed, discouraged workers and, you know, children, the elderly, lots of people don`t work, but it doesn`t really get up to 42 percent or anything near it unless you`re counting every single person in America.

Today`s job report showed that last month the economy added 215,000 jobs, better than had been predicted. The unemployment rate is 5 percent. This is the longest stretch of private sector job growth in American history. 73 months straight dating back from 2010 to the present, 14.4 million private sector jobs added. Today is also, I should note, a landmark day for this program. That`s next.



SANDERS: I`ll tell you what, Chris, it really raises the broader question and that is whether we continue to be a carbon based economy, whether we finally recognize that if we don`t get a handle on greenhouse gas emissions that this planet is going to be facing some disastrous problems in years to come.


HAYES: On this day in 2013, Senator Bernie Sanders was one of our first guests on the first night of our brand new show on this network called "All In with Chris Hayes".

Exactly three years later, Vermont senator is, of course, running for president. We, we`re still here covering the news here in New York and out on the road. We`ve been reporting on stories around the globe.

We were live in Paris and in Brussels. Back home, we`ve traveled thousands of miles across the country reporting from 24 different states on issues ranging from California`s historic drought to the struggles of coal miners in Kentucky.

And as a new Civil Rights Movement has taken shape, we were there covering it at every turn. In the protests in Ferguson, Missouri in August 2014 to the unrest in Baltimore, Maryland in April 2015.

We`ve been to death row in Texas where I spoke with Rodney Reed just weeks before his scheduled execution for a crime Reed said he did not commit. Reed has -- since been granted stay of execution by a Texas court.

We showed you how smart gun technology could change the world. We showed you how police officers are trained to make the decision to use force.

We were nominated for an Emmy for our report on abortion clinic in Buffalo, New York that also houses an Afro birthing center and is changing to face a women`s health care.

And our special on the 50-year war on poverty earned us the only Emmy awarded to any cable news show in 2015.

All of this was in the run up to the craziest story we`ve had to cover yet that is of course the 2016 presidential race.

We`ve been there for every twist and turn including live fact checking a Trump rally. You`ve even follow Donald Trump to the heart of Bernie Sanders country in Burlington, Vermont.

We`ve been out on the campaign trail covering caucuses and primaries talking with voters and to candidates alike.

Three years later we`re here. Thanks to the opportunity you have given us by allowing me into your homes each weeknight.

And we are not done yet. On Monday night, we are back on the road live from Milwaukee, Wisconsin, ahead of that state`s crucial primaries.

Up next is Hillary and Bernie start battling for New York. My exclusive interview with the author, Michelle Alexander on her explosive article ,"Why Hillary Clinton Doesn`t Deserve the Black Vote".


HAYES: It wasn`t long ago, Michelle Alexander, one of the country`s foremost intellectuals and author of "The New Jim Crow" said, "I can`t believe Hillary Clinton would be coasting into the primaries with her current margin of black support if most people knew how much damage the Clinton`s have done."

A month later, she outlined policies of Bill Clinton active and that Hillary Clinton supported in a skating essay in the nation titled, "Why Hillary Clinton Doesn`t Deserve the Black Vote". That was back in February. Since then, she`s not given a television interview to talk about her piece.

Today, after joining actress Rosario Dawson to Harlem for Bernie Sanders` event, Michelle Alexander joined me to talk about the campaign criminal justice race and the Democratic Party.

I started off by asking if she is endorsing Bernie Sanders.


MICHELLE ALEXANDER, AUTHOR, "THE NEW JIM CROW": I am definitely endorsing the political revolution. I am reluctant to endorse any candidate, any Democratic candidate, any candidate in the current political system.

I believe that we need to think very seriously, particularly as folks of color and progressive about building a new party or a new movement that can hold the Democratic Party accountable or provide a meaningful alternative. But, I cannot be more thrilled with the movement that is rising all over this country to support the creation of a real democracy in the United States.

You know, I think Bernie Sanders was absolutely right to call for a political revolution. We don`t have real democracy today. Our politicians are, you know, pretending to serve two masters, the people who elect them and the people who fund them.

And unfortunately, for millions of people who cast their votes every year, they rightfully wonder whether their politicians are responding more to the people who fund their campaigns, including large pharmaceutical companies, big banks, payday lenders, private prison companies than the people who have elected them.

HAYES: One of the biggest critiques of Bernie Sanders shortcomings is the fact that he has had a hard time building a multiracial coalition that his supporters have been overwhelmingly white, that his voting performance has been disproportionately white. I mean, that seems a pretty major obstacle if you want to do that.

ALEXANDER: Well, that is certainly the critique although, you know, his recent landslide victories in Hawaii and Washington state, states that are, you know, Hawaii I think is the most diverse state in the nation and there have been great gains for Bernie Sanders among voters of color.

You know, I think many voter of color had never heard of Bernie Sanders. I had never heard of Bernie Sanders before the presidential election campaign and, you know, the reality is this that the Clintons are very well known to black folks in particular.

And, you know, one of the reasons why I wrote my piece for The Nation is that although, you know, one side of the Clinton story is well known to black folks, the fact that, you know, Bill Clinton was really the first president that ever really embraced black people as human beings.

You know, I think it`s important when people, you know, talk about lots of folks asked me, particularly white folks, asked me, you know, "Why do so many black folks support Clinton when he, you know, his policies were so disastrous for the African-American community?"

And I think many people forget that, you know, we had centuries of slavery where no politician was responsive to our humanity at all followed by Jim Crow`s segregation and, you know, although Lyndon B. Johnson and Robert Kennedy and John Kennedy were allies in some respects, though not all respects, with the Civil Rights Movement and African-American communities, there had never been a president or presidential candidate who actually treated black folks like they were real people who could be viewed and treated as human beings, you know, who weren`t a problem to be solved.

That didn`t treat African-Americans as a problem to be solved, but instead would actually sit down and eat with them and sing in their church and acted like they enjoyed -- recognized us as human beings. And that was -- that`s a huge thing.

Just as the election of Barack Obama as the first black president is a huge thing for African-American. The community is no small thing for Bill Clinton to reach out to African-American communities in the way he did. And I think many people remember that, especially older African-Americans remember that.

What they don`t know, what they often don`t know or don`t remember and it`s actually one of the reasons why I wrote my book, "The New Jim Crow" in first place is that many people of color don`t know or fully understand how the system of mass incarceration was constructed, why and the devastating consequences for our communities and the Clintons, you know, had, you know, important role.

They escalated the drug war and the "Get Tough Movement" far beyond what the Republicans had done, while at the same time dismantling the federal social safety net and transferring billions of dollars away from child welfare and housing into a prison building boom unlike anything the world had ever seen.

And really the election of Bill Clinton marked the turning point for the Democratic Party where the Democratic Party decided that in order to win over those so-called white swing voters, the folks who had defected from the Democratic Party in the wake of the Civil Rights Movement, in order to get those folks, you know, they were going to have to begin proving to that segment that they could be tougher on them than the Republicans had been.

And, you know, I think that`s a part of our political history that is painful I think for the black community to face, but it`s necessary.


HAYES: You can watch my entire interview with Michelle Alexander on our website, That is "All In" for this evening.

We`ll be back on Monday night live from the Lakefront Brewery in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. Come by and see us. Maybe we can take a selfie here, do some snap chatting.

"Rachel Maddow Show" starts right now. Good evening, Rachel.