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All In with Chris Hayes, Transcript 11/25/15

Guests: Betsy Woodruff, Dan Herbert, Larry Rogers, Mike Rawlings

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST (voice-over): Tonight on ALL IN -- DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: There`s something going on in the mosques and other places. HAYES: The danger of Donald Trump. TRUMP: There`s some nastiness. There`s some meanness there. HAYES: Tonight, the growing chorus inside the Republican Party using the F-word about Donald Trump. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I want you to know that this is fascist talk. HAYES: Then, the death of Laquan McDonald. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are not going to suggest that his actions necessarily required that he -- that he be killed. HAYES: Tonight, my interview with the attorney for officer Van Dyke. The ongoing scandal over what the city of Chicago knew and why it took over 400 days to do anything about it. Plus, the Dallas mayor on armed protesters outside a mosque in Texas. And what has become one of our favorite Thanksgiving traditions -- BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Time flies, even if turkeys don`t. (LAUGHTER) HAYES: A dad pardons a Turkey as he embarrasses his daughters. MALIA OBAMA, FIRST DAUGHTER: That was good. That was good. BARACK OBAMA: I thought it was good. MALIA OBAMA: Yes. HAYES: When ALL IN starts right now. (END VIDEOTAPE) HAYES: Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes. Under normal circumstances, the F-word doesn`t get thrown a lot around in mainstream politics. When people bring up fascism, it is generally within the fever swamp of conspiracy theorists. But this presidential campaign has been anything but normal. And now, some prominent members of the Republican Party establishment are openly invoking fascism to describe their own party`s front runner, Donald J. Trump. It started last week with a series of tweets from top advisers and supporters of Donald Trump`s opponents after Trump said he`d be open to creating a database or registry of Muslims in America. Here`s John Noonan, national security adviser to Jeb Bush, quote, "Force federal registration of U.S. citizens based on religious identity is fascism, period, nothing else to call it." From Steve Deace, an Iowa radio host who endorsed Ted Cruz, "If Obama proposed the same religious registry as Trump, every conservative in the country would call it what it is, creeping fascism." And from Max Boot, foreign policy adviser to Marco Rubio, "Trump is a fascist, period. And that`s not a term I use loosely or often. But he`s earned it." One of Trump`s lesser known rivals, former Virginia Governor Jim Gilmore who`s angling for the nomination himself, has actually used the F- word himself. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) JIM GILMORE (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: And now yesterday, Donald Trump proposes a federal deportation force to rip up our society at a very time when we need unity in the face of these challenges. I want you to know that this is fascist talk. It is unworthy of the great Republican Party of the United States. It may be acceptable to some people, but it is not acceptable to me. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: Today, another candidate took it to an entirely new level, releasing a dramatic online ad directed at Trump. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, POLITICAL AD) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You might not care if Donald Trump says Muslims must register with their government because you`re not one. And you might not care if Donald Trump says he is going to round up all the Hispanic immigrants because you`re not one. And you might not care if Donald Trump says it`s OK to rough up black protesters because you`re not one. And you might not care if Donald Trump wants to suppress journalists because you`re not one. Now, think about this, if he keeps going and he actually becomes president, he might just get around to you. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: Now, if that sounds familiar, it is because it paraphrases the legendary poem by the German pastor Martin Niemoller, who survives seven years in Nazi concentration camps. It goes like this, "First, they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out. Because I was not a socialist. They came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out, because I was not a trade unionist. And then they came for the Jews and I did not speak out, because I was not a Jew. And then they came for me and there was no left to speak for me." Watching that ad, it`s hard not to conclude that John Kasich, the sitting Republican governor of Ohio, is drawing an explicit parallel of Donald Trump and the rise of the Third Reich. Lest we forget, Trump is a man who kicked off his campaign by calling Mexican immigrants criminals and rapists when he began his campaign and paid a price with business deals, he has spent almost six months at the top of the polls, the most popular candidate in the GOP field, surging as of late. And there`s clearly demand for what Trump is selling and it`s not new, it`s been present in the base for years, fueled by conservative leaders and elected officials. In the wake of the attacks in Paris, Trump seemed to have crossed the line in the eyes of some fellow Republicans, starting with his professed openness to requiring Muslims to register in a database or carry a special ID. In just the last few days, he`s managed to flirt with some of the most recognizable aspects of fascism, for example, political violence, as we documented on the show, protesters have been assaulted by Trump supporters on numerous occasions. And after African-American demonstrator was filmed being attacked at rally on Saturday, this was Trump`s response: (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TRUMP: I had 10,000 people in the room yesterday, 10,000 people. And this guy started screaming by himself and they -- I don`t know, rough up? He should have been -- maybe he should have been roughed up, because it was absolutely disgusting what he was doing. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: Trump seems to favor a charismatic strongman approach to leadership, praising Vladimir Putin for that very quality, and building his own campaign around a cult of personality. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TRUMP: This is what I call a real supporter. Wow. Thank you, man. Are you married? Are you happy with your husband? She said, yes. She fantasizes that he`s really the real Donald Trump. Can you believe it? (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: In addition to calling for surveillance of U.S. mosques, Trump wants neighbors to profile and spy on each other. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TRUMP: But you people, and me and everybody, you know when somebody moves to an apartment near you or to a house near you, you`re pretty smart, right? We know if there`s something going on. Report them. Most likely, you will be wrong and that`s OK. But let the local police go in and check out. And you will get rid of this stuff. That`s the best way. Everybody`s their own cop in a way. I mean, you got to do it. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: Joining me now, former Vermont governor and DNC chair, Howard Dean. Well, what do you make of all this? HOWARD DEAN, FORMER DNC CHAIR: I make two things of this. One, Republicans are in full terror mode that Donald Trump is going to get the nomination, and they think he can`t win. And two, this is a very interesting, watching all these people who are all authoritarians themselves, called Donald Trump a fascist. The Republican Party is an authoritarian party. If you believe -- HAYES: Well, let me just say, they would argue that we`re the opposite, that they believe in limited government and strict restrictions on what the government can do. DEAN: Well, they do and they don`t. They also believe in restrict the right to vote. Any party which, as a party, and this one is a party that has done this, which restricts the right to vote, is a party that places their own authority above the authority of the people and above the value of democracy. So, I`ve never thought -- HAYES: So, you think -- you`re saying that efforts by Republicans, particularly the state level, to restrict the franchise, voter ID, all sorts of things, show a kind of anti-Democratic impulse in the party? DEAN: Absolutely. It is not only that, here we are talking about taking away people`s rights. What about the Republican Party taking away the rights of women away to decide for their own -- their own reproductive future? This is a party that has a strong authoritarian bent. It has for a very long time and now, they are complaining that Donald Trump is a fascist? HAYES: But there is a difference. There is a difference between people`s positions on, say, abortion, right, and the idea of having Muslims register in some special database. That`s your reaction. DEAN: OK. So, their view is it`s OK to take away people`s right to vote if they happen to be poor or black or elderly, but it`s not OK to put people on a registration. I don`t think either one is OK. We are talking about grades of authoritarianism here. HAYES: To me, what`s more indicative, frankly, the kind of backlash he is getting now is not precipitated by the first day, when he basically said Mexico is sending rapists and criminals to -- north of the border. DEAN: We also know that Republicans have been dog whistling this stuff for a long time. Look at Romney saying I`m not going to -- I will veto the DREAM Act if it gets to my desk. I mean, look at Hispanic -- HAYES: I feel like you are conflating a mode of politics that Donald Trump is channeling here that is attracting this attention with the sort of policy positions of the Republican Party. DEAN: The policy positions are dog whistles to the same people enthusiastic about Donald Trump. That`s the point I`m trying to make is. And what`s happened is there was, quote/unquote, "respectable ring of the Republican Party" has now seep the naked results of exactly what happens when somebody lays it all out there. HAYES: So, your case is that what was essentially done by nudge and wink and -- DEAN: Exactly. HAYES: -- and dog whistle. DEAN: That`s exactly right. HAYES: Playing to certain grievances. DEAN: Hanging it all thought and scaring the living hell out of the Republicans because the Republicans knew that their view was never going to be successful anyway in front of a general electorate and it hasn`t for quite some time. What they are now afraid of is here`s a guy out there just laying it all out, laying their case out in language that everybody can understand. They are not going to like that and they don`t like it and they`re scared to death of Donald Trump. HAYES: The first thing you said about the desperation, it does strike me that you can feel a little bit of panic right now. DEAN: I have never seen anybody called a fascist, let alone the leading candidate of the party, by the people in the party. HAYES: I`m an MSNBC host and I don`t make a habit of coming in here - - call people fascists on the air. Max Boot, Marco Rubio guy, just says he`s fascist, full stop, he`s earned the title. DEAN: These guys are terrified. They`re absolutely terrified, because there is a winning path for Donald Trump to win and we are going to know what it is on the 15th of March, where Florida, the first winner-take- all state, if Donald Trump wins Florida, not only is Marco Rubio and Jeb Bush dead, they are all dead `cause it is a winner-take-all state. And they know it. HAYES: March 15th. And Donald Trump, let`s just remember, it is important that you say March 15th, that is Florida, that is winner-take- all, huge amount of delegates and it is also the state where his -- Donald Trump polling has, from the very beginning, been perhaps the most dominant. DEAN: Right. I agree. It`s absolutely critical. This -- this is do-or-die time. You`re seeing this now because the Republicans are not stupid. They now realize that not only is Donald Trump the real thing, he is now the odds-favorite to win the nomination. HAYES: All right. Howard Dean, thank you very much. Have a great Thanksgiving. DEAN: Thank you. HAYES: Joining me now, Betsy Woodruff. She`s politics reporter for "The Daily Beast", and Josh Barro, MSNBC contributor and correspondent for "The Upshot" at "The New York Times." Betsy, your interpretation of what Governor Dean was just saying about the sense of panic. I can`t tell -- I can`t tell if it`s panic or it`s genuine outrage that people are giving expression to. What`s your read on it as someone who spends a lot of time reporting on this? BETSY WOODRUFF, THE DAILY BEAST: Panic, outrage, and in some quarters, perhaps even resignation. I mean, poll numbers don`t lie. Even if Trump can`t win Iowa, the reality is that Florida is a really big deal and it makes things uncomfortable for Republicans. Obviously, it makes this -- I mean, from a strategic perspective, potentially disastrous if he is the nominee. The fact they are now using fascist to describe him also, though, is really important. And I think part of the reason that we see so many Republicans use that term is that kind of the implication is that he`s not a conservative, right? HAYES: That`s right. WOODRUFF: That Trump has no time for gradualism. He has no time for incrementalism, that he has Russell Kirk and Edmund Burke spinning in their graves, by sort of pigeon holing him as a fascist, they have a way of saying, his specific ideology is not compatible with our ideology and separating themselves from him. HAYES: Josh, this is a key point and I keep seeing people -- you know, sort of growing anti-Trump backlash among what`s called the conservative intelligentsia, right? And these are people that I read regularly, who I`m in contact with, and sort of correspondent with. And they keep making this argument, which I think is -- it bemuses me because I don`t think it`s particularly effective to its intended audience, which is, well, he is not a real conservative because he is not true to small government principles. For instance, he likes eminent domain. It seems to me a big misreading of the emotional core of that movement`s own adherence. JOSH BARRO, MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR: But, I think this is also interesting in that there have been a lot of pieces in the last few days this talk about is Donald Trump a fascist, have to start with, well, what is fascism anyway? And it`s interesting because fascism does not have a set of policy prescriptions at its core in the way that, say, socialism does. Socialism involves the government owning means of production. Fascism is much more about process and attitudes toward how government should work and the idea of having a strong man and the need to put out unprecedented solutions. You can have a fascist state with low taxes or you can have a fascist state with high taxes. HAYES: Right. BARRO: And part of what`s being embodied here is that fascists can move around a lot, ideologically and circumstances can change and the crisis that required one set of policies yesterday might require another set of policies tomorrow. And we need to rely on this -- on this visionary smart leader to figure out what when. And so, I actually -- I don`t think calling Trump a fascist is really productive because I think it is most lay term people throw around for people they think are terrible. But I do think one thing that is embodied in here is that Donald Trump has a certain set of policies that are very anti-immigrant, very appealing to certain kinds of conservatives. Sixteen years ago when he talked about running for president, Donald Trump was for a wealth tax, saying we needed more gun regulation. And so, Donald Trump basically thinks we need whatever Donald Trump in his infinite wisdom thinks we need right now. And I think these conservatives, among other things, are afraid he became president, might see a new incarnation of Donald Trump much farther to the left. HAYES: Let me say the core of this, Betsy, you know, there`s a book about this published in 2005 on fascism, as Josh was saying, the sort of definition is a little difficult. One of the things in fascist (ph) is sort of an obsession with decline, right, that the nation has been brought to its knees, it`s been brought to its knees usually by outsiders or infiltrators in some way, its lost its purity, and that the way to the redeem and revive the nation is through a strong, charismatic, populist leader who channels the kind of pure nationness against the outsiders and the infiltrators. You know, those are things that are -- I think you just -- that describes essentially the Trump appeal at this moment, don`t you agree? WOODRUFF: Yes, exactly, we`ve seen this movie before, right? It is basically -- fascism is basically Conan the Barbarian`s approach to politics. You know, crush their enemies before you, lamentations of their woman, that`s kind of the Donald Trump project. That`s basically what Paxton describes. I think one important distinction and one place where Trump`s basic -- basic platform doesn`t comport with Paxton is an element of fascism and I believe Paxton highlights is fascistic leaders make certain demands of their constituents, often mandatory civil service, mandatory military service. Trump however is basically saying deportation force for you (ph), the fact that public and primary voters respect scratching their heads at all at the prospect that Trump would -- (CROSSTALK) HAYES: I like this argument, Betsy. WOODRUFF: It`s interesting. HAYES: It`s important argument here. Trump is not a fascist because unlike fascists, he is not actually making any demands of his followers, if I`m following you. Let`s get back to the original point which I think is as a descriptive matter, whether or not this word is effective or accurate in this case. A, I think he`s violated deeply held-held norms of American politics, calling for an identity card or database. I mean, that offended people, I think rightly, but number two, this idea of panic among the establishment. Do you think that`s what`s happening? BARRO: Oh, I think they`re absolutely panicked. I think keep in mind, like if Donald Trump doesn`t get the nomination there are a number of very unpalatable options here for the establishment. Ted Cruz -- HAYES: Ted Cruz has got this amazing strategy of being, well, I`m not Donald Trump, basically. BARRO: Yes. Even Marco Rubio, who has become the establishment figure -- remember, he came into the Senate in 2010 by running against the anointed figure of the Republican Party establishment in Florida. Charlie Crist was supposed to be the Republican nominee for the Senate back then. Marco Rubio is substantively much farther to the right on issues than any Republican nominee we have seen for some time. He`s for no capital gains tax. So I think there`s a lot of reason for panic there, but I think they are panicked about more than one thing at once. They`re worried Trump will lose. They`re worried Trump will be a bad president if he won. Maybe worried he would do terrible things for the world. HAYES: Yes, there`s also that. Betsy Woodruff, Josh Barro, thank you both. BARRO: Thank you. WOODRUFF: Sure thing. HAYES: All right. These are live pictures from Chicago tonight where a much smaller group of demonstrators are out on the night after the second night after the video of Laquan McDonald`s death was released. Up next, my interview with the lawyer for the Chicago police officer who shot and killed Laquan McDonald. Plus, disturbing images from a protest outside a Texas mosque. I will talk to the mayor of Dallas to get his response. And later, President Obama`s annual turkey pardon, which he treated with the proper amount of reverence such a tradition deserves. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) OBAMA: As you may have heard, for months, there has been a fierce competition between a bunch of turkeys trying to win their way into the White House. (LAUGHTER) Some of you caught that. (END VIDEO CLIP) (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HAYES: Today in Minneapolis, a funeral service was held for Jamar Clark, the unarmed black man who was fatally shot by police on November 15th. Hundreds attended the service, during which a friend read the last thing Clark posted on Facebook days before he was shot dead. "I haven`t been feeling good, but not like sick, more like time is running out. Like I don`t have too much time, but I know I have some type of purpose on this earth." A state criminal investigation into the police shootings is ongoing, as well as a Justice Department civil rights probe. Following today`s service, the funeral procession drove to the Minneapolis fourth precinct where Black Lives Matter protesters have been camped out since Clark`s death. Inside that same precinct, four men are being held in the shooting of five Black Lives Matter demonstrators Monday night near that encampment. Victims suffered non-life threatening injuries. Police say three of the suspects are white while the race of the fourth has not yet been released. Last night, gunshots once again rang out near the protests. No one was injured. The police arrested one suspect. Demonstrators have vowed to continue their vigil tonight. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HAYES: Protesters back on the streets of Chicago tonight as the nation continues to react to the video of the shooting death of 17-year-old Laquan McDonald, who died on October 20, 2014 last year, after Chicago police officer, Jason Van Dyke, shot him 16 times. Yesterday, Officer Van Dyke was charged with first-degree murder. Today, his record as a police officer is coming under new scrutiny. The 14-year veteran had, according to his lawyer, quote, "zero discipline on his record." That part appears to be true. Van Dyke had not been disciplined for complaints filed prior to the McDonald shooting. That does not mean there weren`t complaints. According to published reports, there are between 17 and 20 complaints, 15 of which were resolved with no discipline. According to "Chicago Tribune," one complainant, Ed Nance, claimed Van Dyke handcuffed him so violently during a 2007 traffic stop, he seriously injured both shoulders. A federal jury ultimately awarded Nance $350,000 in damages. I asked Officer Van Dyke`s attorney, Dan Herbert, about his client`s record as a police officer and his apparent history of complaints. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) DAN HERBERT, ATTORNEY FOR OFFICER VAN DYKE: The perception is that that`s high number of complaints. But I would just state that I don`t have any independent knowledge about those cases. But they were not sustained for a reason and the reason must have been that there was no merit in the case. HAYES: So, what you are saying is that we should trust the internal disciplinary process that found no discipline for him? HERBERT: Sure. There`s no evidence to suggest that there was any flaw in the investigation. So, I would say absolutely you can trust it. HAYES: Let me ask you this. Obviously, you are -- you were representing this man and it`s your job to defend him and people are going to draw the conclusions they draw from that videotape. Can you tell me how your client feels? Does he feel sad, grief, regret that this young man lost his life? HERBERT: Well, he is -- he is certainly -- I think any police officer that takes somebody`s life -- I`ve represented hundreds of police officers that have been involved in shootings and every one of them displays some grief over it. People agonize in different ways. Certainly, Jason did not want to shoot Mr. McDonald but he felt that he had to because he was brought in to this situation, quite frankly, by Mr. McDonald. HAYES: What do you mean by that? HERBERT: Well, like my client was out on routine patrol and the call came over the radio and there was a pretty serious disturbance and he did what he was required to do as a police officer, he responded to that call for help and once he got out of the vehicle, things escalated quickly for him and he took action. HAYES: I just want to be clear of the logic of saying that he was brought into this situation by Mr. McDonald would seem to place the blame on Mr. McDonald for his own death. Is that what you`re saying? HERBERT: No, that`s a pretty harsh characterization. But the fact does remain that Mr. McDonald was certainly breaking the law that evening, and but for his actions, there never would have been an incident involving my client and Mr. McDonald for that matter. HAYE: Sure, but -- HERBERT: But no, we`re not going to suggest that his actions necessarily required that he be killed. HAYES: Yes. I just want to be clear that you will concede that there is some set of actions that a police officer could take, I`m not saying your client did, but could take in a situation in which they are called to a scene that do violate the law that do violate their code of conduct, that could be found guilty of murder? HERBERT: Oh, absolutely. HAYES: OK. Can you talk about the last 400 days? I think is there a general sense of a lot of people watching this that the flurry of activity we see in the last 48 hours precipitated by the decision for the court to release the video. Is that the perception of you and your client? HERBERT: Yes, it is. We don`t have any inside knowledge about it but I believe even the state`s attorney admitted that her decision was certainly prompted or at least escalated, moved up, based upon the judge`s decision to release the videotape. HAYES: Was your client aware of -- he was removed to desk duty or placed on desk duty I believe nine days after this shooting. Was it his perception there were a series of investigations into him during that long period of time in which he remained on desk duty? HERBERT: Well, he knew that there was investigations but it wasn`t until later on in the process that he learned which agencies were conducting the investigations. He knew that there would be an internal investigation done by the Chicago police department, as is routinely done in any shooting cases, but at some point after that, we became aware of the fact that the United States attorney`s office was conducting the investigations into the shooting. HAYES: All right. Dan Herbert, I appreciate your time. Thank you. HERBERT: Sure. Thanks. HAYES: All right, we are keeping an eye on the protests as they develop in Chicago tonight. A smaller crowd tonight, we are told, a lot of police on the streets. But so far, no incidents. The president this hour is weighing in on Facebook. "Like many Americans, I was deeply disturbed by the footage of the fatal shooting of 17-year-old Laquan. This Thanksgiving, I ask everybody to keep those who suffered tragic loss in our thoughts and prayers and thankful for the overwhelming majority of men and women in uniform who protect our communities with honor. I`m personally grateful to people in my hometown for keeping protests peaceful. Up next, there are still more questions than answers about how the city of Chicago handled this case. We will develop into what is an ongoing scandal, next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Chicago police say they had no choice but to shoot a 17-year-old boy who threatened them with a knife late last night. The teen later died at the hospital. NBC 5`s Susan Carlson (ph) joining us live at 41st and Pulaski, where this all happened. She joins us now with the very latest -- Susan? UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, Stefan (ph), right now, I can tell that you police have cleared this scene after gathering evidence overnight. The Independent Police Review Authority is investigating, but police say this was a clear-cut case of self-defense. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: Clear-cut case of self-defense. At the time of the shooting death of 17-year-old Laquan McDonald 13 months ago, much of the initial account upon which several news organizations based their stories at the time was provided by the spokesman for Chicago`s Fraternal Order of Police at Camden. Camden, who arrived at the scene and was paraphrased and quoted by news organizations gave an account of the shooting of Laquan McDonald that was later contradicted by the dash cam video. Here`s how NBC`s Chicago affiliate, WMAQ, which characterized the police account of the shooting as a clear-cut case of self-defense reported on Camden`s explanations of what happened when police approached Laquan. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Fraternal Order of Police Spokesman Pat Camden says as other officers approached to arrest him, he lunged at one of them with the knife and as soon as that happened, they shot him. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: Now, that account was contradicted by a witness who told ABC 7 Chicago McDonald was not a threat to police. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was super exaggerated, you don`t need that many cops to be dealing -- they didn`t need to shoot him. They didn`t. They basically had him face to face, no purpose why they had to shot -- shoot him. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: But ABC 7 Chicago also had this account, again, from Pat Camden. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) PAT CAMDEN, FRATERNAL ORDER OF THE POLICE: Officers are responding to somebody with a knife in a crazed condition who stabs out tires on a vehicle and tires on a squad car, you obviously aren`t going to sit down and have a cup of coffee with him. He is a very serious threat to the officers and he leaves them no choice at that point, but to defend themselves. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: Now, that might have been the end of the story. Police union spokesman says it was self-defense, clear cut, and then an unnamed whistleblower approached independent journalist Jamie Calvin and attorney Craig Fatterman (ph), who was on our show last night. The whistleblower told them there was a video and that it was horrific, according to Calvin, speaking to After a FOIA request, Calvin obtained a copy of McDonald`s autopsy and the autopsy report revealed that 16 shots were fired into Laquan McDonald, hitting him in his chest, neck, head, back, right leg and both arms. Now, that crucially differs from the initial reports that said simply, McDonald was shot in the chest. Initial reports also said that, quote, "the boy allegedly lunged at police." Today, after the dash cam video clearly showed Laquan McDonald did not lunge at officers, Pat Camden, that spokesperson, distanced himself from those comments attributed to him, telling The Washington Post, "I never talked to the officer, period. I have no idea where it came from. It was being told to me after it was to somebody else who was told by another person. This was two hours after the incident. It`s hearsay is basically what I`m putting out at that point. It`s information that has been given to me by a third party that gathered that information from other parties." Whatever the implications of that claim, this isn`t just about officer Van Dyke and Laquan McDonald, there were numerous other officers present who presumably filed reports about what happened, numerous officers internally who may have seen the tape and there are a lot of questions the mayor and the police department are going to have to answer about whether this was adequately investigated before that whistleblower spoke out and before the public started asking questions. Joining me now, Larry Rogers. He was Cook County board of review commissioner and a civil rights attorney. And Commissioner Rogers, are you confident that this was all handled according to protocol and on the up and up? LARRY ROGERS, COOK COUNTY BOARD OF REVIEW COMMISSIONER: Absolutely not. In fact, there is a huge question in our minds why as to why they would be fighting to restrict the public from seeing this video for so long. If you`re familiar with the time line, you will also know that soon after October 14th -- 20th when this happened, within a couple of months, we had a mayoral election. So, there`s a great deal of concern as to whether there was a conspiracy, quite frankly, to hide this information from the public to avoid its potential impact on the mayoral election. HAYES: I just want to be clear, are you suggesting that then- incumbent Mayor Rahm Emanuel running for re-election and facing it a few months later took actions to hide this videotape in order to improve his chances of re-election? ROGERS: What I`m telling you is that we have a videotape of a murder that directly contradicts the description of the officer that this young man lunged at him. This is not a case where you have to identify the shooter. All you have to do is determine whether in fact this guy -- this young man lunged at the officer and there was a justifiable shooting. The video absolutely refutes it. Therefore, you have a basis to charge him. So, why did it take 400 days to charge a Chicago Police Department Officer for what we have on videotape that is clearly an unjustifiable homicide of a 17-year-old young man? And does that have something to do with the timing of the election that was impending is a very legitimate question that I think many need to answer. HAYES: Well, how would that be answered? I mean, the city`s position, as I understand it, has been this, that there is a process, there are a series of processes. First, the IPRA, which is the Independent Police Review Authority and all police officer-involved shootings go through them so they had it. We didn`t want to tamper with that, we are not going to get involved in that. The state`s attorney then came in began their own investigation, there was a Justice investigation, and the mayor`s office basically says, look, we don`t want to be -- we don`t want to be tampering in any of these independent investigations. This had nothing to do with us, essentially. ROGERS: Well, as you noted a moment ago, Pat Camden made very specific comments about how this was an act of self-defense. So there was direct involvement immediately at the time, which he is now distancing himself from. What we need to avoid and what has been the problem in Chicago is this culture of protecting officers when, in fact, the evidence does not support it. So, from the very get-go, there seems to be an effort to defend the officers before the facts are known. In this particular case, where you have a videotape, there is not a whole a lot of investigation that needs to be done. The entire shooting is on videotape. In 15 second, he fired 16 shots, many of which were fired while the young man was on the ground. This man should have been charged within a matter of days, weeks, at most, months. And absolutely under no circumstances should it have taken 400 days. And I think the... HAYES: final question. Yeah, please, let me just say final -- that Pat Camden is a union official, not a city official. But final question is, are you confident that had a whistleblower not come forward to Jamie Calvin and Craig Futterman (ph), had the FOIA not been filed to get the autopsy, that if the process had been left to its own devices that we would be here with this charge? ROGERS: I`m absolutely not confident of that. And that`s one of the growing concerns and why I would suggest we need a special prosecutor in this case. The prosecutor held on to the videotaped shooting of a 17-year- old by a police officer and didn`t charge him for 400 days and in essence, was forced to charge him once a judge ruled that the video needed to be release, that`s entirely unacceptable. She has lost -- the public has no confidence in the fact that she will charge him. And if you know the history of Chicago, there was another officer- involved shooting that resulted in the death of a young lady named Rekia Boyd (ph) and that officer basically was let off Scott free because this prosecutor filed the wrong charge against him. So, we have no confidence in this prosecutor`s ability to properly prosecute this officer and we need a special prosecutor in this case. HAYES: All right, Larry Rogers. Thank you. ROGERS: Thank you. HAYES: Let me note something before we move on here -- up next, it`s been almost two months since the U.S. air strike on the Doctors Without Borders hospital and yet the explanation continues to change. The latest ahead. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HAYES: Today, almost two months after a U.S. plane fired 211 shells at Doctors Without Borders hospital in Kunduz, Afghanistan, killing at least 31 civilians, the Pentagon previewed its own internal review of its actions, concluding that a series of avoidable human errors combined with systems and procedural failures led to the catastrophic strike. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) GEN. JOHN CAMPBELL, U.S. ARMY: The report also determined that the personnel who requested the strike and those who executed it from the air did not undertake the appropriate measures to verify that the facility was a legitimate military target. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: It was the fifth version of an official U.S. explanation for the air strike in less than two months. Initially, the Pentagon said the hospital may have been collateral damage. Then the Department of Defense said the air strike was conducted against insurgents who were firing directly on U.S. forces. Just a day later, the top U.S. general in Afghanistan said it was actually Afghan forces who were taking direct fire and who called in the U.S. strike. That same week, the story shifted again when General Campbell told a senate committee that the decision to provide aerial fires was a U.S. decision made within the U.S. chain of command. The Pentagon internal report, according to The New York Times who spoke to an official who had been briefed on it, says that while the U.S. violated its own rules because no American or Afghan troops were in extreme danger, the hospital was not intentionally targeted. The crew, according to the Pentagon, believed they were firing on a nearby building instead, which had reportedly been overrun by the Taliban. Doctors Without Borders responded to that explanation saying, in part, quote, it is shocking that an attack can be carried out when U.S. forces have neither eyes on a target nor access to a no strike list and have malfunctioning communications systems. The frightening catalog of errors outlined today, illustrates gross negligence on the part of U.S. forces and violations of the rules of war. Prior to the attack, the medical aid organization had repeatedly reminded the U.S. military of the coordinates of the hospital. They also revealed they had, quote, frantically called the U.S. military officials to try and stop the attack while it was happening. It lasted for almost half an hour. Today, the group reiterated their calls for an independent impartial investigation into the airstrike, an airstrike they have said likely amounts to a war crime. Given all that`s transpired, some independent accounting of what exactly happened in Kunduz seems desperately needed. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) JERY STRITZKE, CEO OF REI: I`m Jerry Stritzke, the CEO of REI. This Black Friday, we`re closing all 143 of our stores and we`re paying our employees to get outside, because we believe a life lived outside is a life well lived. I`d rather be in the mountains than in the aisles. Join us on November 27 in opting outside. Thanks. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: A month ago, the CEO of REI announced that the outdoor sporting equipment retailer would be closed on Black Friday. Its employees given the day off with pay. Walmart, meanwhile is taking a very different approach, opening tomorrow, Thanksgiving Day, at 6 p.m., a move that requires workers to cut short Thanksgiving Day celebrations with their families. And the next day, on Black Friday, members of the group Our Walmart will protest the company`s labor practices for the fourth year in a row, calling for a $15 hour wage and fairer scheduling practices. Thanks to a blockbuster new story from Bloomberg Business Week, we know the lengths Walmart goes to to monitor those protesters and block unionization efforts. A page reveals that Walmart considered Our Walmart enough of a threat, it hired an intelligence gathering service from Lockhead Martin, contacted the FBI and kept eyes on employees and activists prominent in the group. According to the story, managers reported union-related conversations to Walmart headquarters. Stores were ranked by labor activity. And the company would dispatch a team of security, labor relations and media relations personnel to combat the protests. Walmart responded to the story with a statement to Bloomberg that read, in part, quote, "unfortunately there are occasions when an outside group`s attempting to deliberately disrupt our business and on behalf of our customers and associates, we take action accordingly." While we all understand that shopping is, of course, the reason for the season, Thanksgiving actually has a whole other moral and social dimension which has to do with taking in strangers and offering them goodwill. More on that next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HAYES: You might know the town of Irving, Texas, as the former hometown of Ahmed Mohammed, the boy arrested because he brought a clock to school and his teacher thought it was a bomb. Well, in Saturday in that same town, armed protesters gathered outside the Islamic Center of Irving, most carrying long guns, some masked, in what they called a protest to, quote, "stop the Islamization of America." You can see one of the masked protesters holding a gun in this video, shot by a fox 4 reporter Zahed Arab (ph) outside the mosque and posted to Twitter. It was a legitimately frightening scene as people headed into the mosque crossed paths with the gun-wielding sometimes masked protesters. The protest organizer today went even further, publishing the names and addresses of Muslims in Irving on Facebook. Telling the Dallas Morning News he believed that Irving mosque had established the country`s first Islamic court to practice Sharia law, a false rumor that Irving mayor Beth Van Dyyne has pushed in speeches to Tea Party groups and in interviews with Glenn Beck and others. Now, Irving is a suburb of the city of Dallas. That city has a mayor who has struck a very different tone. Joining me now is the mayor of Dallas Mike Rawlings. And Mayor Rawlings, first your reaction to what is happening in the nearby town of Irving. MIKE RAWLINGS, MAYOR OF DALLAS: Well, I`m terrifically proud of Texas and of Dallas, really, all of DallasFfort Worth is so growing. Like all of America, we have a few people that are out there in the fringe that are wrong-minded and I think we have got to realize that they don`t speak for everybody else. We have got a great Muslim community, have met with many imams and really the whole faith-based community is lifting our Muslim brothers and sisters up in this time. So, a blip on the screen and we move on to be a very generous and hard working city. HAYES: You know, your governor, Greg Abbott there, has been one of the most vocal governors in saying that he will not allow Syrian refugees to resettle. He`s also gone a step further, he has written letter to social service agencies who may be providing relief to the folks, saying, basically I direct your agencies to use your full authority to comply with the direction that he has given, which is to not do anything to resettle refugees. As a Texan, how do you feel about the big government coming in and telling social service agency what is they can and cannot do? RAWLINGS: Well, look, the governor and I agree on a lot of things -- how to do business in Texas, early childhood education. We disagree on this issue. I believe -- we do agree -- I think all of us want to annihilate ISIS and send them to the ninth circle of Dante`s hell, but how we deal with refugees is a whole other issue. I think we need to put the mirror up to ourselves and say what does this say about us as leaders and steps of this country and I think we should listen to Matthew 25 and I think the Bible speaks very clearly about how we deal with strangers and we need to take them in. HAYES: Do your constituents support that position? Have you been getting backlash for that? RAWLINGS: I am -- been lifted up in the last week with so many people that are proud about being in Dallas, because we do have open arms. There are people that don`t agree with me. There`s no question the -- some of the emails and texts I`ve gotten, but that`s what makes our country go around. And that`s what makes people watch TV for you because there`s both sides on this issue. And I understand it. The key thing, though, is to focus on the enemy and to be steely-eyed about that, bring the tenor of the conversation down and kind of button the lips a little bit so we can focus on destroying this enemy and at the same time, making us strong during this Thanksgiving holiday. HAYES: All right. Mayor Mike Rawlings of Dallas, thank you very much. RAWLINGS: Thank you. HAYES: Coming up, President Obama reaches peak dad trolling at today`s time-honored tradition of the presidential turkey pardon. You absolutely do not want to miss this. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HAYES: There`s a great tradition on Thanksgiving Eve, and I`m not talking about the holiday tradition of the president pardoning turkeys, which is frankly ludicrous and sort of cringe-inducing. It is the tradition of President Barack Obama pardoning turkeys while simultaneously mocking that tradition and evincing total contempt for it, all while forcing his embarrassed daughters to be present over the years. That`s exactly what happened this afternoon during a ceremony in the White House Rose Garden. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Can I just -- I`m going to publicly thank Malia and Sasha for once again standing here with me during the turkey pardon. (APPLAUSE) OBAMA: They do this solely because it makes me feel good, not because they actually think that this is something I should be doing. It is hard to believe that this is my 7th year of pardoning a turkey. Time flies, even if Turkeys don`t. SASHA OBAMA, DAUGHTER: That was good. That was good. OBAMA: You think it`s funny, too, don`t you? I know some folks think this tradition is a little silly. I do not disagree. I`ve got to listen to my critics say I`m often too soft on turkeys. And I`m sure the press is digging into whether or not the turkeys I pardoned have really rededicated their lives to being good turkey citizens. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: As best as we can tell, the turkeys Obama has pardoned have never been charged with a crime. That is All In for this evening. It is, of course, Thanksgiving eve and this is my favorite holiday, it really is, especially during times of tremendous fear and tumult and lots of very awful things happening in the news. It is wonderful to have an opportunity, to take a moment and look at the people that we love. If you are so lucky to be around them or unlucky, as is sometimes the case. And thank them and thank whoever it is you thank for having the opportunity to be around them. And I want to take the opportunity to wish all of you a very happy, healthful, joyful thanksgiving. And this is our third ever Thanksgiving ever here on All In, so I want to thank you, the viewers, for coming back night after night and to all the amazing staff and crew here who make this show happen. I am very grateful to be able to do this job. And the Rachel Maddow Show starts right now. THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED. END