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All In with Chris Hayes, Transcript 11/17/15

Guests: Cyril Vanier, Charlie Pierce, Lawrence Korb, Christopher Dickey,Graeme Wood, Sophia Jones, Daniel Malloy

CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST: Good evening from Paris. I`m Chris Hayes on a day when the investigation into the brutal attacks here has focused on the response to those attacks keeps widening. A new threat shut down a huge sporting event in Germany. A soccer stadium in Hannover, Germany, was evacuated after what was described by German police as a credible threat 90 minutes before kickoff, a friendly match between Germany and the Netherlands that was expected to begin approximately at 8:45 p.m. local time. German Chancellor Angela Merkel had been expected to attend the game. In counterpoint, the match between France and England at Wembley Stadium in London went forward amid some concerns but British fans joined their French counterparts in singing the French national anthem as a display of solidarity. The eighth terror suspect, Salah Abdeslam, is still at large at this hour. And today, two arrests were made of men who reportedly shared in his getaway car, one of them a suspected driver, a lawyer for one of those two suspects acknowledges a car ride occurred. But tonight, as claims involvement in the attacks, lawyer for the other suspect says his client went along for the ride. There is also now an active manhunt for an as yet unnamed additional accomplice in the Paris attacks, 120 raids took place overnight across France as French authorities mobilized 115,000 security personnel since the Friday`s attack, according to the French interior minister. Also today, a big development, Russia said it was indeed a bomb that took down its airliner two weeks ago in Egypt. Russia intensified air strikes of ISIS targets in Syria. The Russians said they were coordinating their campaign with France as it launched air strikes of its own. Secretary of state John Kerry met with French President Francois Hollande on a day when Holland called on the U.S. and Russia to overcome divisions in an effort to defeat ISIS. France also invoked a never before used Article 42 in the European Union treaty, obliging members of the 28- nation bloc to give aid and assistance by all the means in their power to a member country that is, quote, "the victim of harmed aggression on its territory." All of it further evidence that France is fully entering war footing as its citizens struggle with their own mourning and response. Today, I visited a restaurant that was one of the scenes in the crime. And later in this hour, I`ll speak with a governor in the U.S. about the refugee hysteria sweeping the United States, as domestic politics turns increasingly ugly. We begin with two reports tonight, Eamon Mohyeldin is in Cairo for the latest on the Russian announcement it was indeed ISIS that took down their passenger airliner, and Claudio Lavanga is in Brussels, Belgium, with the latest on the investigation there and the news from Germany today. Claudio, good evening. CLAUDIO LAVANGA, NBC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Chris. Well, the manhunt for the most wanted man in Europe continues, of course. Salah Abdeslam, as you mentioned, was born and raised here in Belgium. Belgium and Brussels which was more known as the home base of international organizations like the European Union and NATO. But now, it is increasingly becoming clear that it is the hot bed of Islamic extremism here in Europe where there are the most the highest number of foreign fighters per capita in any county in the Europe left from here to go and fight with ISIL in Syria and as many as 130 are known to have come back. Well, now, one of those radicalized is Salah Abdeslam. His family still lives here. His brother Mohamed who was arrested on Friday along with another six people was arrested on Friday, he was then released. Mohamed spoke on camera the last couple of days. And today, he told a channel in France, a TV channel in France, he made an appeal. He said Salah, his brother, just turn yourself in. That, of course, hasn`t happened yet. He`s still being sought in particular here in Brussels even though he`s known to have been picked up in France by these two accomplices who were arrested today. He must have come back here in Belgium somewhere. Of course, the police don`t know whether he`s still here or whether he is elsewhere in Europe. But, of course, this is the place they were thought to find any trace of his whereabouts. In the meantime, of course, you mentioned the developing news in Germany. The German interior minister has spoken out about an hour and a half ago while he gave out some details or what he calls, what he said the threat was real. There was credible evidence but also didn`t want to give out any account or any specifications on what this threat was about, not to upset the population, he said. Well, on that particular known answer was as worrisome as any other answer itself, Chris. HAYES: All right. Claudio Lavanga, thank you. Joining me now from Cairo, Egypt, MSNBC foreign correspondent Ayman Mohyeldin. And, Ayman, the Russians announcing today that they had had found it was some sort of explosive device that brought down the passenger plane. Egyptian authorities still saying that`s not the case. There seems to be some dispute between the two nations about what exactly happened. AYMAN MOHYELDIN, MSNBC FOREIGN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I mean, if you look at it over the course of the last several weeks, the Egyptian government has been very reluctant to buy into the theories from Western governments that it was definitely a terrorist attack, especially in the growing evidence that has been presented by both U.S. and British intelligence that they detected some chatter among ISIS militants in the Sinai Peninsula before and after the attack celebrating it. But, today, you really had perhaps the closest thing to an actual forensic confirmation that this was a bomb. You had the head of Russian intelligence coming out and saying that after they were able to analyze the soil sample and samples of the fuselage, they were able to determine that in fact, there was explosive residue in the wreckage of that plane. They went as far as saying it was about 2.2 pounds worth of TNT that brought the plane down. So, from the eyes of the Russians and Western intelligence services, this is now definitely a terrorist attack. Not yet sure who is behind it although ISIS did claim responsibility for it. They still want to verify that claim of responsibility. But you`re right. When you talk to Egyptian government officials, today the statement that came out of the government was very clear. They said they`re going to take Russia`s final conclusion into their own calculation when they make their investigation complete. They didn`t say that they`re acknowledging that Russia`s conclusion was correct. In fact, they went a step further saying that as of yet, the civil aviation minister here in Egypt said as of yet, there is still no evidence of criminal activity behind being bringing this plane down. Now, despite that, Egypt`s minister of interior is stepping up security at the airport. And they have begun top screen employees. They have begun to screen baggage even tighter than what we`ve seen in the past. They did say that they`re considering all possibilities that it could be a terrorist attack. But as of yet, no clear indication from the Egyptian government that this was a terrorist attack. We also know that Egyptian security officials have been questioning people at the airport, questioning personnel at the airport in another indication that perhaps that, too, is where their investigation is going to lead them, albeit a little bit later than many of the other countries that have already concluded this was a bomb, Chris. HAYES: All right. Ayman Mohyeldin in Cairo, thank you very much. Joining me now, France 24 reporter and anchor, Cyril Vanier, who was on air when the Paris attacks occurred. Cyril, thank you for joining me tonight. I know you lost a colleague. I want to express condolences. CYRIL VANIER, ANCHOR, FRANCE 24: Thank you. HAYES: Everybody, I think, is devastated by what happened here. Francois Hollande just talked about a grand international coalition to defeat ISIS. What have are the domestic politics at play for him as he essentially puts the nation on quite explicitly war footing? VANIER: Well, look, first of all, look at the context going into this for Francois Hollande domestically. He`s a very weak president, very, very low approval ratings. You have to ask yourself if you just put aside the feeling and the trauma for just one second, how is this going to affect his presidency? Is there going to be a before and after November 13th? In all likelihood, there is. And Francois Hollande knows that and he knows it`s critical to his presidency how he handles this moment. The way he`s handling it, he has to get tougher on security. This is what people want. It`s a natural response. I mean, as a Frenchman, I`m angry and just coming here, I read, I looked at the poll numbers, that`s the national mood. People are angry and they`re going to want more security. They`re going to want things to be done. HAYES: Hollande today talking about a variety of measures, including a possibility of a constitutional amendment about essentially revoking the citizenship of dual nationals who were found guilty of certain crimes. It feels to me like somewhat like a similar to 9/11 moment when America passed a whole variety of measures, starting spending much more on defense, built an entire structure of security, went to war in two different countries. I mean, is that what France is headed towards? VANIER: I think there are some similarities because certainly in terms of reckoning and in terms of understanding the level of threat we`re facing -- yes, this is different from what we`ve seen before. And I`m saying this from a perspective of a country that`s been under attack this year already a number of times. But this is different. It`s a different scale and also people understand it could be anyone anywhere. You know, it`s not specific targets. It`s everybody. It`s our lifestyle, our country. I think people understand that at this moment. However, one thing that France cannot do is afford to just start wars with other countries and the way that the U.S. did post-9/11. We can`t just invade Syria assuming we wanted to, not saying we do. But France can`t do that. That`s not on the table. HAYES: That is not on the table. It`s not part of the political discussion when people argue about the range of options, some sort of French ground invasion in Syria is simply not a discussed option. VANIER: Given the size of our military -- no. HAYES: Cyril Vanier, thank you very much. I really appreciate it. VANIER: Thanks. HAYES: Coming up, we`ll have more from Paris, plus an analysis of the rhetoric versus the reality of combating ISIS. And the latest on the American presidential politics who want a religious litmus test for Syrians fleeing violence. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) JEB BUSH (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Which is why I said that look, at a minimum, we ought to be bringing in people that he have like orphans and people that clearly aren`t going to be terrorists or Christians. There are no Christian terrorists in the Middle East. They`re persecuted, religious minorities. . REPORTER: So what does the focus on Christian families actually like? BUSH: You`re a Christian. You can prove you`re a Christian. REPORTER: How? BUSH: I think you can prove it. If you can`t prove it, then you know, you err on the side of caution. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: It`s been four days since the deadly attacks in Paris and life in the French capital is slowly moving forward. The streets tonight had activity, though more muted than normal. Earlier today, I went to the site of one of those attacks and asked "The Daily Beast" foreign editor Christopher Dickey, lived here for 20 years, if Friday`s events will change life in Paris. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) CHRISTOPHER DICKEY, THE DAILY BEAST: I think life changes when you start looking over your shoulder. That`s what people are doing. And I think what`s what you saw out in Place de la Republique a couple of days ago when somebody set off fire crackers and there was panic. Even the police to some extent panicked. So, I think you just -- you -- that changed the quality of life. You don`t want that to happen. I mean, there`s signs here that have says we won`t change our way of life, except we`ll do even more of it and we love you. Well, that`s great. That`s a great sentiment. That`s one of the things you love about the French is there is this kind of solidarity. The fraternite part of "liberte, egalite, fraternite". But at the end of the day, when you`re walking around the city, you think twice, do I want to go to the ballet? Am I going to go to the movie? Do I want to sit in an outdoor cafe? People do it, but it doesn`t feel the way it did a week ago. (END VIDEO CLIP) (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HAYES: In the wake of the Paris attacks, one of the Republican front- runner`s own top advisors is blasting his lack of knowledge on foreign policy. Wayne Clarridge, an advisor for Ben Carson telling "The New York Times", quote, "Nobody has been able to sit down with him and have him get one iota of intelligent information about the Middle East." Meanwhile, Donald Trump has a new line about ISIS. He`s been working on stump speeches. It`s getting pretty rapturous applause. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I`m going to bomb the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) out of them. It`s true. I don`t care. I don`t care. They`ve got to be stopped. (END VIDEO CLPI) HAYES: According to a new poll, 20 percent of Americans believe Trump is the best candidate suited to deal with terrorism, tied with Hillary Clinton and far more than any other Republican. Trump`s rhetoric on foreign policy as with everything else tends to be extremely simplistic as seen in an Instagram video he posted today wrongly suggesting the U.S. does not screen Syrian refugees. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TRUMP: Refugees are pouring into our great country from Syria. We don`t even know who they are. They could be ISIS. They could be anybody. What`s our president doing? Is he insane? (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: Trump is one of a number of Republican candidates who have been attacking the president over his strategy for fighting ISIS, which the president maintained yesterday is ultimately going to work. GOP candidates` rhetoric belies the fact that in most cases, many of their policies don`t end up differing a lot from what the president has been doing. As "The L.A. Times" notes, the major candidates in both parties have called for airstrikes against Islamic state positions in Syria and Iraq, providing arms to Kurdish and Arab militias, and building coalitions with U.S. allies and regional partners, all of which the administration has been doing for more than a year. Yet in the wake of the attacks here in Paris, most of the GOP candidates are opting to paper over that fact and attempt to adopt the most bellicose rhetoric they can. Joining me now, Charlie Pierce, writer at large for "Esquire". And, Charlie, there were some thinking I saw -- some folks on the right thinking, well, this Paris attack is going to show people you`ve got to be serious and who is going to take the 3:00 a.m. call. Obviously, that`s not going to help he Trump and Carson. It looks to be just the reverse. This is precisely helping Donald Trump because in a competition for the most bellicose rhetoric, no one is going to beat Donald Trump. CHARLES PIERCE, WRITER-AT-LARGE, ESQUIRE: That`s absolutely right, Chris, because the competition for the most bellicose rhetoric is the only competition. As pointed out, this is a terrific issue if you`re running for president. It`s a terrible issue if you actually are president. HAYES: Right. PIERCE: Because if you`re running for president and you know there weren`t good solutions and you know that the current president is pretty much, you know, doing the only things that can be done, you can yell about doing anything. Full in the knowledge that you`re not going to do it once you get the opportunity. So, basically, what you have is a bunch of Republicans turning up the rhetorical heat and yet, essentially, advocating the same policies the president`s following except with more leadership. HAYES: You know, Charlie, you covered the aftermath of 9/11 and I thought you wrote an interesting piece about some of the fear expressed about the possibility of infiltration by ISIS by refugees. Here in Paris you can feel the moment in politics. You can really feel it, not dissimilar from 9/11, this sense that they might strike anywhere and we have to take these measures. We saw that play out in the U.S. Are you surprised by the tenor of American politics in the last 48 hours? PIERCE: Absolutely not. I spent all weekend lighting candles and saying novenas in gratitude that it was the Democratic debate on Saturday night, not a Republican debate because I can`t imagine what that would have been like. Yes, I think -- what I wrote today basically was a lot of this is yes, a lot of this is ginned up for political advantage, and a lot of xenophobia. Some of it isn`t. Charlie Baker in Massachusetts is not a bigot. Neither is Maggie Hassan in New Hampshire. Now you can argue if you`re even more cynical than I am that she`s taking this position because she`s going to run against Kelly Ayotte for the Senate, and she doesn`t want to look soft on terrorism. And if you want to believe that, that`s fine. I do believe it comes down to -- if you are a politician that believes the federal government can do its job, Bill Belichick, then you will probably go along with the refugees. But if you`ve made your entire career out of Ronald Reagan`s admonition that the problem, the government is the problem, not the solution, then you very easily fall in to really, really bad habits of rhetoric and really, really, real bad policy. HAYES: There`s also the fact that we -- there`s a sense in which 15 years into the war on terror after trillions of dollars, thousands of American servicemen and women have died -- I say thousands of Americans died in 9/11 and other terror attacks -- you know, this question of have we won yet, are we there yet? That strikes me as some of the kind of esprit du corps you`re getting from candidates on the trail. PIERCE: I think you`re right. I don`t think anybody really knows what to do with this issue. The original rhetoric in the wake of 9/11 ran out of gas pretty quickly. It ran out of gas because of the attack invasion of Iraq. If you look at the polls now, there is absolutely no appetite in the American public for sending ground troops over there, none. No matter what people say and no matter how much Lindsey Graham will personally pilot the troop ship from New York to Cyprus or whatever, there is no appetite in the public for another ground war in West Asia. But, basically, the polls say people want to do something very harsh, but they don`t want to use ground troops and don`t think increased airstrikes will work. So, I`m not exactly sure what they have in mind. They just want to do something. HAYES: That`s where you get bombing the crap out of them. Charlie Pierce, thank you very much. PIERCE: Thanks, Chris. HAYES: Joining me now is Lawrence Korb, senior fellow at the Center for American Progress, former assistant secretary of defense in the Reagan administration. And, Lawrence, I want to focus on actual substantive policy differences that have been laid out. Some of the things America has been doing including air strikes, arms support, special operators now in Iraq actually working on the ground. That`s actually being done. The no-fly zone is something that many Republican candidates have advocated and Hillary Clinton seems to essentially endorse. Would that help? Is that a good idea? LAWRENCE KORB, CENTER FOR AMERICAN PROGRESS: No, the no-fly zone wouldn`t help at all because ISIL, which is the main enemy, doesn`t have airplanes. It would be very expensive. You would need thousands of troops enabled to do it and it would get you involved in the Syrian civil war which is really not a threat to us. HAYES: You mentioned the Syrian civil war. It strikes me so much of the conversation from people in the American domestic political context is about destroying ISIS, people in Europe. When I correspond with people in the region, when I talk to people in the region, they talk about the civil war. They talk about Assad. They say 70 percent of these refugees are fleeing Assad. There is no solution to ISIS without some solution to the Syrian civil war. Do you think that`s true? KORB: Well, there`s no long-term solution unless you take care of the Syrian civil war. We`re going to have to come to some sort of political solution that sets up a transition government or sets a date for an election and lets Assad go out gracefully so that we can all concentrate on fighting ISIL. You know, the Russians went in there and pretended they were fighting ISIL. They really were there to protect Assad. After the airliner went down, boy, they have gone after ISIL big-time with the bombing in Raqqa. So, yes, you need to do that. As a result of what`s happened to the Russians, what`s happened in Paris and what`s happened in Lebanon, people are going to be willing to make the compromises necessary to get some sort of solution to the civil war so we can focus on ISIL. HAYES: Can you imagine a sort of united front against ISIL that didn`t involve some ground troop contingent that was successful in essentially destroying the group? KORB: Well, I think the ground troops -- the president is absolutely right -- the ground troops have to be the local ground troops. We can have a limited number, you know, maybe as we have 3,500 in Iraq and we just put 50 into Syria, basically to advise and assist. If you look at the operation last week where the Peshmerga cut off route 47 which is the main route from the Raqqa to Mosul, which is the capital for the ISIL in Iraq and they took back Sinjar and they had Americans advising and assisting, that`s the way to go. You put American or Western ground troops there, it will feed into the ISIL narrative that this is a struggle between the West and Islam. HAYES: All right, Lawrence Korb, thank you very much. KORB: Tank you. HAYES: Still ahead, why Secretary of State John Kerry says he was shocked but not surprised about the attacks in Paris. He revealed in his interview with NBC`s Lester Holt. That interview and Lester will be with me, next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HAYES: Today, for a second day, U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry met with officials in Paris, personally pledging to the French President Francois Hollande American support in the fight against the Islamic state. Earlier, NBC`s Lester Holt sat down with the secretary to ask if the U.S. underestimated ISIS and its capabilities before last week`s attack. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) LESTER HOLT, NBC NEWS ANCHOR: Mr. Secretary, we learned from Russia today that it was in fact a bomb that took down the MetroJet over Egypt a couple of weeks ago. ISIS claimed responsibility. ISIS apparently behind the Paris bombings. These are capabilities that no one apparently knew they had. How could the U.S. and the West expectations of ISIS be so wrong? JOHN KERRY, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: Well, I disagree that people didn`t know they had this capacity. We certainly have known. HOLT: That they could blow up a plane? KERRY: Sure. I mean, they have gained great expertise over a period of time and they have some people in ISIS who have been fighting in the terror network for a period of time. So, they have access to C4. They have access to explosives. Everybody knows that. They`re making IEDs every single day. HOLT: So, you weren`t surprised by what we saw in Paris? KERRY: I was shocked by it, not surprised. I find that we all know because we are following the threat streams that any individual who wants to strap a suicide vest around them can walk into any public event in most places in the world and blow him or herself up and destroy people with them. So, that`s the nature of terror. That`s why terrorists are called terrorists. They spread terror. They`re trying to sow fear and intimidate people. And yes, we have known this. We`re on the lookout every single day for these plots. And we`ve intercepted one of them. We had a bomb that didn`t go off in Times Square, if you recall a couple years ago. This is within the total capacity and nobody should express shock that terrorists have the ability to kill people somewhere. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: That was NBC`s Lester Holt with Secretary Kerry. Just moments ago, I spoke with Lester about his conversation. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) HAYES: So you got a chance to talk to the secretary of state today. And I was struck a bit by the both he and the president seem to be -- I don`t know what the right word is, a little exasperated by some of the criticism they`re facing. HOLT: think the question keeps coming, strategy, strategy, strategy is something going to happen after Paris, and what they`re saying is no, the strategy that we have is working and they describe how the physical area within Syria that ISIS controls is shrinking. But obviously, they`re feeling a lot of pressure. And, yes, probably a little exasperated. HAYES: One of the things you got to in the interview that has been in some ways buried by the news from Paris is there looks like there is some progress on the front of some kind of framework for a cease-fire with some of the parties in the Syrian civil war. HOLT: Well, because they`ve got to get to the heart of this. And it was interesting that President Hollande in his remarks to parliament the other day, you know, talked about the fact there`s got to be an ISIS, an international ISIS strategy. For that to happen, Russia and the U.S. have to get on the same page. And I think that`s, when you talk about a change in strategy, I think that`s the overall goal. HAYES: The secretary is also going to be back here in two weeks for COP21. He`s obviously got a lot on his plate. How much do you think this comes to dominate the sort of end of this presidential term. HOLT: Well, I think it`s always the next shoe that drops. I mean, listen, I was here ten months ago and you didn`t know it was going to happen again so soon. But suddenly, Belgium now is seen in kind of a different light as a potential hot bed of terrorist activity. Europe has this unsettled sense of a threat right now. And I think it potentially could become a big part of the final part of this presidency to the extent he`s gone all-in with this current ISIS strategy and drawing a line in the sand that there be no troops. HAYES: All right, Lester Holt, thanks so much. I really appreciate it. HOLT: Great talking to you. (END VIDEOTAPE) HAYES: Coming up, governors of over half the states in the union have raised objections to resettling Syrian refugees in the U.S. I`ll talk with one governor who is instead reassuring refugees they are still welcome in his state. That`s next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HAYES: The resistance to President Obama`s plan to accept at least 10,000 Syrian refugees over the next year is growing in the wake of the terror attacks here in Paris four days ago, though, it bears repeating investigators have yet to the establish a definitive connection to the refugees. Governors in 31 states are now opposing, refusing or suspending the resettlement of Syrian refugees into their state either permanently or until after security review. And amid reports that hard lines opposed to accepting refugees could force a government shutdown in the states, House speaker Paul Ryan today said the refugee resettlement program should be suspended and planned a House vote on restricting refugees by Thursday. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) REP. PAUL RYAN, (R) WISCONSIN: This is a moment where it`s better to be safe than to be sorry. So we think the prudent, the responsible thing is to take a pause in this particular aspect of this refugee program in order to verify that terrorists are not trying to infiltrate the refugee population. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: GOP presidential candidates have been flogging the issue for perceived political gain including Louisiana Governor Bobby Jindal who today suspended his struggling presidential campaign and who on Saturday sent the president a letter calling his refugee plan, quote, irresponsible and severely disconcerting. Another GOP presidential Candidate Ohio Governor John Kasich repudiated his previous support for accepting refugees in the wake of the Paris attacks. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) JOHN KASICH, GOVERNOR OF OHIO: It`s a matter of numbers. And look, I mean, at the end, the people of this country don`t want any more right now. They want to make sure they`re going to be safe. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: Hillary Clinton who has called for taking in 65,000 Syrian refugees significantly more than the Obama administration, today had some harsh words for Jeb Bush and Ted Cruz who have suggested America should make special allowances for only Christian refugees instead of Muslims. Quote, "we`ve seen a lot of hateful rhetoric from the GOP but the idea we turn away refugees because of religion is a new low." Joining me now is one of the minority of governors who says Syrian refugees are still welcome in his state, Democratic governor Dannel Malloy of Connecticut. And governor, I understand you`re on a conference call between the White House and governors today on then issue. What was that call like? DANIEL MALLOY, GOVERNOR OF CONNECTICUT: It was interesting. First of all, the administration did a very good job of explaining the process and procedures on how people are allowed to come into our country as a refugee. Let me give you a couple of statistics. Since 2011, 23,043 people have been recommended by the UN to be considered for coming to the United States from Syria . 7,000 of those after review were found to be acceptable for a next stage of review. Of that 7,000, 2,000 have made it to the United States thus far. And many of those folks are in states like Florida and Texas and elsewhere and Connecticut for that matter. We`re talking about a tiny fraction of people. Let me give you a statistic, since 2004 through 2014, according to the government accountability report, we sold 2,042 guns to people who were on the terrorism watch list. Why? Because the NRA has prevented us from adding people on the watch list as ineligible to buy guns in the United States. It doesn`t make a lot of sense. Let me give you another statistic, 30,000 people in America are going to die as a result of gun violence. And yet, those same governors who came out today and said we shouldn`t take refugees are the same governors who oppose common sense gun control laws in America. Why don`t we have universal background checks? If a Syrian can`t get on a plane to fly someplace in the world or to the United States without a background check, why do we sell guns to people without a background check if we`re so fearful what`s going to happen? HAYES: Governor, it comes down it seems to me about confidence in the vetting procedure in place. And it seems that there`s either a combination of good faith distrust of that system or bad faith demagoguery, frankly, in this wave of governors. What do you think is at play? MALLOY: Or people who just haven`t bothered to understand what the process is. We have the toughest process in the world about allowing refugees into our country. That`s the reality. That`s the standard we hold ourselves to. And by the way, let`s be very clear, no one`s taking a raft from Turkey to get to the United States. We control this situation to a higher degree than any other European country can at the current moment. And we have different procedures even at our airports and with respect to passports and with respect to visas than are present in Europe. We are well protected. And by the way, I just gave you the numbers, 23,000 to 7,000 for review to only 2,000 since 2011 entered into this country. And a bunch of those folks have been victims of rape, had been victims of political oppression, had been our allies in the goings on in that area. That`s why we brought them to this country so that they wouldn`t be killed because they were our allies. What are we going to turn our back on these folks? HAYES: Do you think you can sell the voters of your state on this, or is this going to create real political problems for you? MALLOY: No, listen, I think this is -- the American people are generous people. And they understand what`s written on the Statute of Liberty "give us your poor, your tired, your weary." They understand that. We`ll return to this common sense situation. But a bunch of governors got ahead of themselves, didn`t bother to do their homework, didn`t bother to understand what`s going on even in their own states and how hard this process is. And they jumped on a political bandwagon. And quite frankly, they`re going to win that argument for a while. People are going to think, hey, that`s great. Let`s really be tough on people. Here`s a question, if most of these folks who attacked in Paris were French and Belgians, why wouldn`t you allow French and Belgian people in our country or any other country that has a problem? The reality is what they`re trying to do is say, this is a very small segment of people. We can pick on them relatively easily and we can make our political point. And by the way, that`s what terrorists want. They want us to stop being Americans. They want us to stop believing in liberty and in freedom. They want to be able to be go back to where they`re from and say see, Americans didn`t really mean they were an open society. They really don`t mean they`re going to treat our people the same way as they treat everybody else. They`re going to single us out one way or the other. HAYES: All right, Governor Daniel Malloy of Connecticut, great thanks for your time tonight. MALLOY: Thank you. HAYES: France and Russia target the Syrian city of Raqqa with air strikes. an those efforts actually weaken the Islamic State? That`s next. (COMMMERCIAL BREAK) HAYES: The wee hours of the earliest morning in the middle of the night here in Paris, the street life today was present but not exuberant here in Paris. I talked to a Parisian about what it`s been like since the attacks. And she said that today there were many more people on the street than there had been, but it wasn`t the full Parisian boisterous experience that she was used to. The question she had was when we would return to that or is this staying after 9/11 about how nothing would ever be the same, the saying about the new normal. The question Europe right now is facing is what their new normal looks like and how they figure out a path going forward. We`ll be back with more from Paris after break. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Russia says it now knows unequivocally that a two- pound homemade bomb brought down its plane late last month over Sinai. President Putin promised a harsh response. VLADIMIR PUTIN, PRESIDENT OF RUSSIA (through translator): Wherever they are hiding, we will find them in any spot on the planet and punish them. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And Russia started that punishment against ISIS, which claimed responsibility for the attack, by bombing its capital in Syria, the city of Raqqa. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: The ISIS held Syria city of Raqqa is now the target of Russian air strikes. France, meanwhile, has carried another round of airstrikes of its own on the city. This latest wave of attacks on Raqqa comes as France makes an unprecedented demand for its European allies to support the country`s military action against ISIS. As for the U.S., it has been bombing Raqqa for months in addition to other strategic locations. American-led air strikes are being credited with helping push ISIS extremists out of Sinjar in northern Iraq where ISIS planted its -- 15 months ago brutalizing a minority group known as the Yazidis and precipitating the initial American intervention. And joining me now by phone from Irbil, Iraq is Sophia Jones who has been reporting on the Yazidi people in Sinjar for The World Post. Sophia, you were in Sinjar just right after ISIS had been defeated and pushed out, what was the scene like there? SOPHIA JONES, THE WORLD POST: I was there just two days after Kurdish forces pushed out ISIS. And when I arrived with Kurdish and Yazidi fighters, there was nothing left of the city. Most of the homes had been looted or burn. There were plumes of smoke high in the air. ISIS has had labeled homes based on the religious sect of the people inside the house so they would write Yazidi or Sunni or Shia on the homes in thick black lettering. People were diffusing IEDs and booby traps. They were uncovering tunnels under -- dug through people`s living rooms. The city was totally destroyed and there are no civilians there right now. HAYES: Was there a sense in the people you talked to of a victory here? Obviously it`s horrifying what has happened and the city`s been brutalized. Did they feel like this had struck a blow, that this meant that they were on the march and ISIS was in retreat? JONES: If you talk to Kurdish forces called the Peshmerga they will say it`s a huge victory for the KRG and for the forces and they really thanked the United States and said they could not have done it without these U.S. air strikes which were huge. But if you talk to the Yazidis, they say this in no way a victory. They have absolutely no money to rebuild the city from the ground up and they also say what`s going to stop ISIS from regrouping and attacking in a few weeks and a few months and committing another massacre like happened last August in which hundreds of Yazidi men, women and children were killed when they were taken as sex slaves and children were taken as child soldiers. And I spoke to some of those survivors this week who say that they are terrified it will happen again to them. HAYES: All right, Sophia Jones with some amazing reporting out of Sinjar from Irbil, Iraq, right now. Thank you very much. Joining me now contributing editor to The Atlantic Graham Wood who wrote the piece "What ISIS Really Wants" from that magazine is now working on a book about the group`s ideology. Graeme, your article got a lot of play. It was controversial in certain quarters. How do you think what we`ve seen in Paris and in Beirut and now it appears in the (inaudible) against Russia fits with what your understanding has been of, quote, what ISIS wants. GRAEME WOOD, AUTHOR: So, the first thing to say is that ISIS back in March, 2015 when that article came out was doing quite well, now it is not. Sinjar would be just one example. There are several others. And before its main focus was keeping territory, building a state. Now what it seems to have done is decided that it`s time for a major change in strategy. And actually, the adoption of tactics that before it thought were not a winning play. They thought it was old school al Qaeda stuff to do spectacular attacks on places like Paris. So, we`re seeing the group changing fast. And it`s interesting to look at the ways that might have -- that decision might have been come to. I think it has a lot to do with the setbacks. HAYES: Yeah, what does that suggest about whether what is being done from a strict military strategic sense is having a positive effect? WOOD: Yeah, I think it`s definitely having a positive effect. It`s a kind of slow motion military collapse that we`re seeing with the Islamic State, that is, they`ve got to the point where they can`t really expand much further because once they get any further, they start reaching Shia majority areas, they reach areas where they can`t really keep and hold. And instead you see them rolling back, even in a place like Ramadi, which was a site of one of their victories they`re at this point reduced to holding a small portion of that city. And that could disappear, too. So if these strikes continue with troops on the ground from the Iraqi army but also most importantly the Kurds, continue to take that territory away, then they`re going to have to rethink their purpose for existence because they won`t have a caliphate and territory for much longer. HAYES: Of course, the frightening thing for that, for folks that are listening and whether they would be in Paris or Brussels or in Los Angeles is if they have now decided, well, the thing that distinguishes us from al Qaeda is we were an actual state and we held territory and we`re losing some of that territory and now we are going to act more like al Qaeda is that we could be seeing many more attempts at the kinds of the things we`ve seen over the last two weeks. WOOD: They used to say to al Qaeda that, look, if you have September 11th style attacks what does that get you? It gets you invaded. You lose your base. So, don`t do that. Now they`re finding that they get -- they lose their base anyway because there`s this kind of air assisted effort by Kurds, et cetera. So if that means that their response is all right, let`s just try the old traditional al Qaeda model of bombing western targets, then in the short run, yeah, you might very well see a serious uptick in activity like the Paris massacre of Friday. HAYES: All right, Graeme Wood, thank you very much. Really appreciate it. Still to come, a look at the significance of a neighborhood that was targeted on Friday. Why the attackers chose those particular locations. That`s right after the break. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HAYES: Several of the targets hit in last week`s attacks were restaurants and cafes, places where people of all ages, religions, nationalities gathered on a Friday night. Two of the restaurants targeted were La Petit Cambodge (ph) and La Carillon (ph), located in the (inaudible). Earlier today, I went to that neighborhood and spoke with the Daily Beast Christopher Dickey about the area`s significance as a target. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) CHRISTOIPHER DICKEY, THE DAILY BEAST: I mean, nobody here had any reason to think that anybody would ever drive up and just mow them down with machine guns. I mean, it was just unbelievable. And this is the thing that I think has affected people so much in Paris. You can`t put it off on anything else. You can`t say, oh, they drew cartoons of Muhammad. You can`t say anything was even remotely a provocation. This is just slaughter for the sake of slaughter in a neighborhood that was mixed. HAYES: Yeah, what is this neighborhood like? I mean, it just seems quite we should say it`s Tuesday now and life seems to be bubbling back up in Paris generally. DICKEY: Well, it`s a very mixed neighborhood. There`s a lot of people here from North Africa, from Africa. There are a lot of people from eastern Europe. There are people from everywhere here. This -- there was a period when this was sort of the silicon Valley kind of -- Silicon Alley of Paris in this general neighborhood. We`re just a few hundred years, not even, from the canal San Martin, which is one of the most beautiful places to walk in the city, where people sit out on the edge of the canal and talk and do all those kinds of romantic things that you think of students doing here in Paris. All of that is part of the neighborhood. This is really where the life is in Paris. This is where things, (inaudible), things are moving. You could say it`s hip but it isn`t really hip, that`s misleading. It`s that wonderful cosmopolitan mix that you get in Paris at its best whether you`re talking about the Paris of today or the Paris of the `20s, people from all over the world to come and mix and mingle and want to lead lives of pleasure. HAYES: Yeah, Hollande said yesterday that there were 19 nationalities amongst the dead so far. Was that what -- was that surprising to you? Was that what you thought when you heard that it was happening in this neighborhood? DICKEY: No. I didn`t, that didn`t surprise me at all when I heard it was happening in this neighborhood. And remember also that the concert venue, the Bataclan, is a ten-minute walk or less from here. And that was packed with people, again the same kind of mix of people. As we wrote about in The Daily Beast, something important to remember, one of the things that the killers knew or at least the people who did this operation knew, designed it, is that there shad be a lot of people from Muslim backgrounds in this crowd and they think that those people are apostates. Why? They`re apostates because they come from Muslim backgrounds but not living like the people in ISIS, they`re not living like people in the damned Islamic State. They`re living like Parisians. And that`s a crime. (END VIDEOTAPE) HAYES: All right. That was Christopher Dickey in the neighborhood right around here where two of the attacks happened. That is All In for this evening from Pin the wee early hours of the morning. Joining me now Richard Engel who will take over on Rachel Maddow`s spot tonight. It`s good to see you. THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED. END