IE 11 is not supported. For an optimal experience visit our site on another browser.

All In with Chris Hayes, Transcript 10/21/15

Guests: Bernie Sanders, Jess McIntosh, Adam Schiff, Michael Burgess,Charlie Dent, Richard Keil, Bob Garfield

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST (voice-over): Tonight on ALL IN -- JOSEPH BIDEN, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Unfortunately, I believe we`re out of time. HAYES: The vice president ends the suspense. BIDEN: The time necessary to mount a winning campaign for the nomination. HAYES: Tonight, what this means for the Democratic front-runner and the man trying to catch her. Senator Bernie Sanders will join me. Then, and what did Exxon know and when did it know it? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Scientific evidence remains inconclusive as to whether human activities affect the global climate. HAYES: I`ll ask Senator Sanders why he`s calling for a federal investigation of Exxon. Plus, why Harry Reid is demanding the RNC pay for the Benghazi hearings. And the Freedom Caucus comparing Paul Ryan to a maid who won`t wash windows. REP. PAUL RYAN (R), WISCONSIN: If I can truly be a unifying figure, then I will gladly serve. HAYES: The latest on the mutiny in D.C. when ALL IN starts right now. (END VIDEOTAPE) HAYES: Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes. After more than 80 days of "will he or won`t he" speculation, and more than 40 years of pursuing his dream of becoming president of the United States, Vice President Joe Biden took to the Rose Garden with his wife Jill and President Obama to tell the world in a hastily convened announcement he will not seek the Democratic nomination for president. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) BIDEN: As my family and I have worked through the grieving process, I`m said all along what I have said time and again to others, that it may very well be that process by the time we get through it, closes the window on mounting a realistic campaign for president. That it might close. I`ve concluded it has closed. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: Biden and his family have been mourning the death in May of Biden son Beau. According an August 1st "New York Times" column, Beau`s dying wish had been for Biden to run for president. In the months since that column ran, Biden has been openly considering a late entrance into the race, though he warned he may not have the, quote, "emotional energy" needed to do so. In his 13-minute Rose Garden speech today, Biden called for free college education for all Americans, a renewed focus on curing cancer and a continued push for equality for all. An apparent criticism of Hillary`s assertion in last week`s Democratic debate, Biden made a point once again to say he does not view Republicans as enemies, and he surged the Democratic nominee not to turn his or her back on President Obama`s record. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) BIDEN: This party, our nation, will be making a tragic mistake if we walk away or attempt to undo the Obama legacy. The American people have worked too hard, and we`ve come too far for that. Democrats should not only defend this record, and protect this record, they should run on the record. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: A short time ago, I spoke to Bernie Sanders and asked for his reaction to Biden`s decision. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I-VT), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I`ve known Joe Biden for many, many years, and like him very, very much. We were anticipating running against him, we were anticipating running without him. You know, I think he fought long and hard about this decision, what it means to his family, what it means to the country, and he chose not to. HAYES: So, you gamed this out, obviously. SANDERS: Yes. HAYES: I mean, it would be irresponsible not to. Is there -- is there a policy area, are there a set of policy questions, legislative initiatives, conversations within the Democratic Party that would happen that won`t happen with him not in the race? SANDERS: I don`t know. I mean, I think in many ways his record was not totally dissimilar from Secretary Clinton`s. He may be stronger on certainly other issues. But we cannot know what we will not know. So, we will see. But -- HAYES: But there were now things that you were gaming out saying these -- this issue, this issue, this issue are going to suddenly be at the front and center of the campaign if he gets in the race? SANDERS: No, what we were doing is reviewing his record to know where he stood and where we stood differently. HAYES: When were you first elected to be mayor of Burlington, Vermont? SANDERS: 1981. HAYES: 1981. So, 34 years ago. You know, Joe Biden has been in public life for 40 years. He`s been an elected person. How hard is it to walk away? How hard is it to say, I`m not going to -- there`s going to be a time when no one will have elected me? SANDERS: I think it is hard. I mean, Joe is a passionate guy. Joe takes these things very, very seriously. He works really hard. And I want to repeat what I had earlier today, is that we seem to have forgotten as a nation where we were seven years ago before Biden and Obama took office. And you remember where we were. We were losing 800,000 jobs a month. These guys faced terrible obstructionism from Republicans, the financial system was on the verge of collapse, we were running up the largest deficit, and these guys worked together and led the country in bringing us to a place where we`re obviously a lot better than what we were seven years ago. We still have an enormous amount of work to do. HAYES: There`s a tension that strikes me in two things, for you particularly. And that has to do with Joe Biden today, basically being very clear to the field -- yourself included -- that you can`t run away from the president`s record. You got to kind of run on the president`s record. SANDERS: Right. HAYES: To say Barack Obama is a fine president, I support him, and he did a great job, and also, during his time in office, all of these economic conditions for the middle class and working class have not improved. I mean, there`s a tension between saying, yes, he`s done a good job and also this stuff -- SANDERS: I don`t think there`s a tension, Chris. It`s simply the truth. When we came in, our world -- this world`s financial system was on the verge of collapse. Eight hundred thousand jobs a month were being lost. We are in much better shape now, but Democrats can`t go around saying, well, gee, everything is good. We`re much better than we were when Bush left office. The truth is for 40 years, 4-0 years, middle class has been disappearing. HAYES: Right. SANDERS: Huge and grotesque levels of income and wealth inequality. We have a corrupt campaign finance system as a result of Citizen United. We have more people in jail than any other country on earth, primarily black and Hispanic. So, we continue to have huge problems. But we should give Obama and Biden credit for what they have accomplished, and understand we need to go much further. HAYES: Right. So, that`s the question to me is, there`s two ways to think about the next Democratic president, one is continuing on the trajectory that Barack Obama and Joe Biden, you know, as his vice president, have laid out. And another is essentially a course correction that the current trajectory won`t get us. It sounds to me like you`re making the latter case. SANDERS: Yes, I am. I mean, what I am saying is, look, I`m a great personal friend of the president and the vice president. Both wonderful people and I think they`ve done a damn good job. But I personally believe, given the crisis we face right now, with the power structure in America, we have corporate America and the Koch brothers and the corporate media. And so much power on top, we need a political revolution. We need to mobilize tens of millions of people to begin to stand up and fight back and to reclaim the government which is now owned by big money. Do I think that that was the work -- was that the goal of the president and the vice president? Not really. I don`t think so. So I think we`ve got to go further. You know, I think we need to stand up to Wall Street in a way that the president and the vice president have not. I think we have to move toward making public education, higher education tuition free for public colleges and universities. And I think you got to tell the billionaire class they are going to pay their fair share of taxes. HAYES: Yes. Senator Bernie Sanders, we have you here in New York, the rare occasion I got to talk to you face-to-face. And we`re going to talk a little bit more later in the program about some -- your call for a task force to investigate Exxon. Much more on that later in the program. (END VIDEOTAPE) HAYES: This afternoon, Hillary Clinton called Joe Biden after he announced he wasn`t running, according to her press secretary. She also tweeted that Biden is a good friend and a great man who inspires to change the world for the better. An NBC News/"Wall Street Journal" poll out yesterday showed Biden with 15 percent support in the race for the Democratic nomination. The big question now is, where that support goes? Right now, there are only two candidates in the race with any appreciable support, Hillary Clinton and Bernie sanders. On the surface at least, Biden`s decision would seem to benefit Clinton more than it does Sanders. In that new NBC News poll, Clinton`s lead over Sanders was 20 points with Biden in the race, 25 points when Biden was left out as an option. Joining me now, MSNBC political analyst Howard Dean, former Vermont governor and former chair of the DNC, and Jesse McIntosh, spokesperson for Emily`s List. Governor Dean, let me start with you. Are you relieved by this decision that you`re not going to have to be one of many people as a Hillary supporter herself, out there basically going after Joe Biden, which would have inevitably been where this ended up? HOWARD DEAN, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: No, I don`t think so. I`m not relieved. I`m relieved for Joe. I think he made the right decision. He can now leave politics now he did almost more than anybody else serving as a great vice president for eight years, and he can be proud of that record. I was never -- I`ve never trashed Bernie Sanders, I`m not going to trash Joe Biden. I don`t think that`s how we win general elections. So, I wasn`t ever thinking I would be out on the campaign trail trashing Joe Biden. HAYES: So, Jess, how much do you think this came as a surprise inside Hillary land? How much do you think it was anticipated? JESS MCINTOSH, EMILY`S LIST: I don`t think anybody anticipated it. I don`t think anybody in Hillary land. HAYES: Yes, that`s my sense, too. MCINTOSH: I think if anybody said they knew what was going to happen this morning, we took an informal poll in my office, and it was literally split this morning, yes or not, with one even knowing that an announcement was going t o be mad. So, I think this was a decision he made on his own terms, with his own consult, exactly as it ought to be. It frankly surprised the heck out of everything, which is nice and refreshing. MADDOW: Do you buy the -- one of the -- the poorly understood aspects of what happened with Hillary Clinton`s numbers over the summer was that a significant portion of the softening of her numbers had to do with the fact that Biden was suddenly being included in polls. Do you buy the standard conventional wisdom, which is that ultimately it is now a race, at least for now between Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders, and Biden`s absence helps Hillary Clinton? MCINTOSH: Well, I think if you`re tracking one person`s poll numbers over a large am of time and you, all of a sudden, introduce a third viable candidate, everyone`s numbers go down. So we saw that happen. We didn`t always see that put in the right context. We`ve seen her numbers compared to her numbers as secretary of state, her numbers compared to her numbers before she was a candidate. All of that, of course, is not the way you track polls. So, I think we are still see a very tight contest between Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders. I think that Democrats are largely really happy with those choices. I think we saw that coming out of the debate last week. I think Democrats are excited about the conversation that`s happening. It`s a really substantive one, which I know can be tough for people who want to cover something that`s comparable with what`s happening on the Republican side, because we just don`t have that. But what we are having is a substantive conversation about agendas and the way to take the country forward, with slight differences, which is the way a Democratic primary ought to be. And I think what we`re going to be seeing for the next few months. HAYES: Governor Dean, let me ask you this question. I just asked Bernie Sanders this. Sometimes you watch a guy who is 88 years old running for another term in the Senate, and you think to yourself, you know, there`s a lot of things you could do. I imagine at that point, there`s a lot of books I want to read, or people I want to hang with, places I want to travel. And it does seem pretty addictive. I mean, part of what it felt like we were watching, aside from the mourning process, was also him reckoning with not being a politician for the first time in his adult life for 40 years. DEAN: It`s pretty addictive, Chris, but I`m happy to tell you there`s a real life after politics, and I`m enjoying the hell of mine. HAYES: You`re a liar. You`re a liar. DEAN: No, I`m not. I really -- HAYES: I`m just kidding. DEAN: There`s a time and place for anything. I view my contribution at this point as being a cheerleader for the next generation. I think that`s a good place and they need that. So, you know, it was interesting, watching Bernie. I`m obviously for Hillary and I think she`s going to be a great president. I don`t think there`s a single thing that Bernie Sanders just said in the interview that you just did that I disagreed with. HAYES: Right. DEAN: So, I mean, I`m a happy guy. I think we have great candidates. I am very much hoping we`re going to win the presidency. If we don`t, I think this country is going to go in a very bad direction. MCINTOSH: I couldn`t agree more. HAYES: Jess McIntosh, you, of course, had Joe Biden in our 2016 fantasy draft. So, I extend my condolences on the loss of that. You will not be getting any points going forward. MCINTOSH: If you had told me I was going to get more points off Donald Trump than Joe Biden when I played that, I would have told you, you were insane. HAYES: I know. See, politics is unpredictable. That`s why they play the game, as they say. Howard Dean and Jess McIntosh, thank you both. MCINTOSH: Thanks. DEAN: Thank you. HAYES: All right. Coming up, more from Bernie Sanders, I`ll ask him about his call for a DOJ investigation into allegations that Exxon lied about their knowledge of climate change. Plus, House Democrats consider resigning from the Benghazi committee. I`ll talk to one of them about that decision. And later, Paul Ryan falls sort of getting a critical endorsement for House speaker from the vaunted freedom caucus. We will look at what that means. It`s right now very confusing. Those stories and more, ahead. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HAYES: A great reminder of just how earlier we are in the 2016 nominating process and how much everything could change comes from an article written in August by Phillip Bump of "The Washington Post." In it, he looked at polling data from Gallup and Real Clear Politics, and notes that on this day, October 21st, in the year before the 2004 election, General Wesley Clark was the top of the Democratic field, leading by five points. On this day in 2008 election cycle, Hillary Clinton, you may have heard of her, was way in front of everyone else, including the current president, by nearly 26 percentages point. In the Republican side, Rudy Giuliani led the field by nearly 9 points and he would stay in the lead for another 78 days. In the 2012 cycle on this day, well, of course, the poll was the one, the only Herman Cain up by half a percent. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HAYES: Tomorrow, presidential candidate Hillary Clinton will testify before the House Select Committee on Benghazi. The committee has become a full-on political spectacle at this point, following the seeming admission by House Majority Leader Kevin McCarthy that the point of the committee was to dry down Hillary Clinton`s poll numbers. That was echoed by another Republican congressman, Richard Hanna. The committee`s chairman, Trey Gowdy, pushed back hard, saying that Republicans who are not even on the committee should shut up and stop talking, and telling "Politico", quote, "When I hear about her, it is so hard for me. You are not worth 18 months of my life, with all due respect. Four debt people are, but you`re not." Ahead of tomorrow`s testimony, everyone wants in on the act. Presidential candidate Donald Trump says he was disappointed with Gowdy`s recent comments. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The hearings, I was looking forward to all of them, but with all that`s happening, I`m surprised he pivoted away so much from Hillary. He said, these hearings are not about her. Actually, we want to discuss other people much more so. And it sounded like he was sort of pulling away from going after her. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: Presidential candidate and Gowdy fellow South Carolinian Lindsey Graham tweeted, "Gowdy is leading a legitimate investigation on Benghazi. Stand with Trey." But now Democrats, led by Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid, Senator Dick Durbin, Senator Charles Schumer, Patty Murray and others are calling on the Republican National Committee to pay for the seemingly endless probe. Quoting the senators` letter to RNC chairman Reince Priebus, "Due to the political nature of the committee, we believe it is inappropriate that a reported $4.7 million taxpayer dollars were used to finance its operations that the RNC subsequently orchestrated numerous fundraising opportunities in its wake." Two Democratic members of the committee, Congressman Adam Schiff and Congresswoman Linda Sanchez, have suggested that if Republicans continue on the same course, they may quit the committee, writing in an op-ed, quote, "If the committee Republicans continue on this dangerous course, they will likely have to do so alone. Democrats will reconsider how much longer our participation makes sense." Joining me now, one of those individuals, Democratic Congressman Adam Schiff of California, member of the House Select Committee on Benghazi. Congressman, this whole thing, you know, it seems to frankly political, but the role of the Democrats also seems sort of preposterous at this point. I mean, it`s not like you`re coming to some realization about what this committee was. You basically said it from the beginning, you joined reluctantly. Is this a gimmick, we`re going to quit now? Why not quit now? Why not ride it out, or why not quit six months ago? REP. ADAM SCHIFF (D), CALIFORNIA: Well, first of all, I don`t think Donald Trump has to be worried. The committee began about Hillary Clinton, it`s currently about Hillary Clinton, as long as it goes on, it will remain about Hillary Clinton. That`s what the committee was formed for, as Kevin McCarthy said. No, it hasn`t been any change or any surprise to us, we have had this debate frankly since the beginning of this committee, whether it makes sense for us to continue participating. And here`s the dilemma, I`d be very candid about it -- because we are on the committee, we`ve been able to set the record straight, when they had made misleading leak after misleading leak, the most egregious of which, Chris, was this amazing one from the chairman himself. He issued a 13-page letter saying that Secretary Clinton had endangered the lives of other but using a private e- mail to mention a confidential classified source. Only for us then to go to the CIA and say, is there anything classified in this e-mail and have them say, no, there isn`t. What`s more, this source isn`t classified, this is a well-known person. So we were able to debunk that latest scurrilous attack from the chairman itself. On the other hand, and this is where the dilemma lies, by participating, we are giving some patina of respectability merely by our presence that this committee really doesn`t deserve. And that`s we`re wrestling with. HAYES: So, committee aides in the majority told the ALL IN staff that your record of attendance when these interviews has been poor. That you called on the committee to be boycotted or disbanded from the merely the beginning. And basically you`re not taking this seriously. And let me note, having reported on Capitol Hill, you`ll get aides going back and forth at each other from the majority, minority from time to time. I`ve never seen anything like what is going on in this committee, in which the respective staffs are basically constantly trying to destroy each other in the inboxes of every reporter. SCHIFF: And that was kind of a classic attack of the committee, which like all the other taxes are versus misleading, and I`ll tell you. We`ve had 53, 54 interviews. These are staff conducted interviews, the members by and large don`t attend. In fact, Chairman Gowdy missed about 47 of the first 53 interviews himself, he didn`t think it was worth his attending. So, they can attack me for not attending, but their own Republican members don`t attend. In fact, the chairman hasn`t attended the vast majority of these hearings or these interviews rather. (CROSSTALK) SCHIFF: Tellingly, though, Chris, the few he`s attended have been those mostly focused on Secretary Clinton. The chairman says and I think him at this, that we should judge the work of the committee not based what his own membership and his own leadership are saying, and even the own investigator has said about the committee, but by the committee`s actions. But, frankly, those actions are the most damning of all. HAYES: So, what`s the tipping point? We`ll have the big spectacle tomorrow. Hillary Clinton will be there. She`ll be there for a long time. There`s all sorts of expectations in either direction. I mean, are you looking for anything? Is there some sort of thing that crosses the threshold where you resign or the Democrats resign en masse? SCHIFF: Well, this is not something where individuals I think are going to resign from the committee. We will make a decision through our leadership of when it makes sense or whether it makes sense to continue participating. But here`s a dilemma or here`s the situation, rather. That is, we don`t know where this committee is going after tomorrow. The committee said we were going to do ten or a dozen interviews this year. They canceled all of them except the one with Secretary Clinton. So, we have no idea what`s coming next. In fact I think the majority has no idea what`s coming next. I suspect that in an effort at least to try to minimize the impact of Representative McCarthy`s admission and others, they`ll go through the motions of some other hearings to show that it wasn`t just about Secretary Clinton, but we don`t know, frankly. I`m not sure they know, either. HAYES: All right. Congressman Adam Schiff, thank you. SCHIFF: Thanks, Chris. HAYES: Still ahead, after House members all out begged Paul Ryan to run for House speaker, now it looks like the hard line Freedom Caucus will not endorse him. That`s ahead. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HAYES: And the headline I never thought that I would see, the leader of Germany just told the leader of Israel basically -- what you said was wrong. The Holocaust was our fault and our fault entirely. That followed a speech by Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to the 37th World Zionist Congress, where he said, quote, "Hitler didn`t want to exterminate the Jews." Netanyahu then said it was a Palestinian leader in Jerusalem who gave Hitler the idea. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER: Hitler didn`t want to exterminate the Jews at the time. He wanted to expel the Jews. And Haj Amin al-Husseini went to Hitler and said, "If you expel them, they`ll all come here." "So what should I do with them?" he asked. He said, "Burn them." (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: That account was roundly condemned, one historian in Tel Aviv University saying, quote, "With this, Netanyahu joins a long line of people that we would call Holocaust deniers". A leader of the opposition party said the accusation was a dangerous historical distortion, demanded that Mr. Netanyahu corrected immediately. The ultimate pushback came from German Chancellor Angela Merkel through her spokesman. Quote, "All Germans know the history of the murderous race mania of the Nazis that led to the break with the civilization that was the Holocaust. We know that responsibility for this crime against humanity is German and very much our own." Bear in mind, Netanyahu`s comments were made against the backdrop of series of ghastly killings and reprisal killings between Palestinians and Israelis. The comments were also made just hours before Netanyahu`s trip to Germany where he tried to walk-back those remarks, saying, quote, "I had no intention of absolving Hitler from his diabolical responsibility for the annihilation of European Jews. Hitler was responsible for the Final Solution -- the extermination of 6 million Jews. He made the decision." But according to an Israeli paper, Netanyahu also said the purpose of his anecdote about the Palestinian leader in question was to highlight the long-standing existence of Palestinian incitement against Jews. And so, in his rush to create the most monstrous rhetorical enemy he could for his present political purposes, history was just collateral damage. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) REPORTER: You`ve dealt with the Freedom Caucus for a long time. So what do you think the chances are that they will acquiesce to Paul Ryan`s demands, or requests as he puts them. JOHN BOEHNER, (R) HOUSE SPEAKER: Listen, I think Paul Ryan would make a great speaker, but this decision is up to the members. I thought last night went very well, and hopefully, by the end of the we`ll have a nominee. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: John Boehner`s right. The decision on whether Paul Ryan will agree to run for one of the most powerful constitutional offices in the United States is up to the house members, especially the members who make up the Freedom Caucus, the group of roughly 40 hard-line Republicans who essentially pushed Boehner into early retirement. Last night Paul Ryan announced his willingness to serve as speaker in a somewhat strange announcement, if a set of conditions are met. Those conditioning, which are lengthy, included an endorsement from the Freedom Caucus and all major GOP caucuses, restrictions on time he would spend away from his family -- he has three young children -- a change to the house rules that would make it harder to call a vote to oust a speaker. At least ten of those Freedom Caucus members are none too pleased, like North Carolina Representative Walter Jones. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) WALTER JONES, RERESENTATIVE OF NORTH CAROLINA: Well, all I would say is, I didn`t know what the event was tonight. If I knew it was a Paul Ryan rally for speaker of the house, I wouldn`t be here. Fox News reportedly tweeted that congressman Tim Huelskamp of Kansas says that Ryan set up unacceptable conditions. And today, Representative Matt Salmon of Arizona, perhaps sounded the most skeptical of Ryan`s conditions, telling The Hill, quote, and I`m quoting directly , "it`s like interviewing a maid for a job and she says, I don`t clean windows, I don`t do floors, I don`t do beds. These are the hours I`ll work. It`s rubbing a lot of people the wrong way." Ryan met with Freedom Caucus members this afternoon behind closed doors. To win their endorsement, Ryan would need the support of at least 80% of the group`s 40 members. Moments ago, Freedom Caucus member Raul Labrador said that while the majority of the caucus supports Ryan, there are not enough votes for a formal endorsement. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) RAUL LABRADOR, REPRESENTATIVE OF IDAHO: A supermajority of the Freedom Caucus has to agree to support Paul Ryan. A supermajority. There was not an agreement on the preconditions, and we`re going to continue to work to change what`s happening in the house. That`s why this is not an endorsement. it`s a super majority, but -- support. REPORTER: So a supermajority means two thirds? LABRADOR: No, because it requires an 80% threshold. The ball is in Paul Ryan`s court, and he`s got to decide whether that`s sufficient. This is not about crowning a king. This is about working together and making sure that every member feels like they`re empowered. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: Joining me, Representative Michael Burgess, Republican from Texas. Now, congressman, my understanding is you are yourself not a member of the Freedom Caucus, but you have friends who are? MICHAEL BURGESS, REPRESENTATIVE OF TEXAS: I think that`s correct. And Chris, thanks for having me on. I always enjoyed being with you. HAYES: I enjoyed it too. BURGESS: I realize I`m your favorite Texas Republican, so I acknowledge that. HAYES: Let me see if I understand this correctly, because it can get in the weeds here. There`s 435 members of the house of representatives. BURGESS: That`s correct. HAYES: The current Republican majority, if I`m not mistaken, is 247 members? BURGESS: That`s right. HAYES: So we`re down to 247, because despite the speaker, right? Because the majority gets to decide who the speaker is. There`s a House Freedom Caucus that is 40 members that needs to get to 32 members, if I`m doing this math quickly on the fly correctly, 32 members to endorse, and there`s somewhere around the threshold of 29 to 30. So, we`re talking about two or three House Freedom Caucus votes will deny the endorsement, which will mean that Paul Ryan will not be speaker. Is that correct? BURGESS: You will have to ask the individuals involved. My understanding was the requirement was that there be an endorsement by the Tuesday Group, the Republican Study Committee, and the House Freedom Caucus. I`m a member of the Tuesday group, I`m a member of the Republican Study Committee, I`m a member of the Texas delegation, obviously, and Paul is meeting with us in Texas tomorrow morning. So, we`ll see where all that goes. People around here, they`re good vote counters, and they generally can tell the way things are going to go. HAYES: So, what was your reaction? From the outside, and I have no dog in this fight for a variety of obvious reasons. The whole thing looked to me like watching two people talk themselves into a relationship, they clearly should not be in, that is going to clearly end in tears later on. Paul Ryan doesn`t seem to want this job. BURGESS: No, he does not. HAYES: No. So why -- isn`t this a bad idea for this person to take this job when he clearly doesn`t want it? BURGESS: Chris, I`ve lost you. Hold on for a minute. HAYES: You got me back there, congressman? BURGESS: I`m sorry. I`m back with you. HAYES: He doesn`t want the job. BURGESS: I`ve lost the audio. HAYES: We may have to take one second to see if he can test his audio. I could spit out my theory of why this was a terrible idea. I mean, basically Paul Ryan`s basically said, I don`t want the job, members of the House Freedom Caucus, who are essentially holding hostage the entire house Republican party, has said they`re not that thrilled about them. We went through the count of ten of them who have expressed their reservations about him. Ultimately, the structural conditions that have produced the, I think it`s fair to say, failed speakership in many ways of John Boehner are going to carry over to Paul Ryan, no matter how charismatic, how well liked, how affable, bright and industrious, fellow members of his caucus may think he is. We have it back? So congressman, why is this not a terrible idea, if Paul Ryan doesn`t want it and some influential people in that caucus don`t want him? BURGESS: Well, Paul has a national stature, having been our vice presidential nominee in 2012. I think many people look to Representative Ryan as perhaps that figure with national stature that can bring some unity to the conference. It`s a tall order. I don`t know whether he can do that, and as he as stressed time and time again, he has his dream job right now. He`s the chairman of the Ways and Means Committee, he`s looking forward to rewriting the tax code with a Republican president next year, so in many ways he has only down side from taking on this job. At the same time, he recognizes his responsibility to the country, and my understanding is he came to a decision sometime this past week that, if the conference wanted him, he would serve in that capacity. HAYES: And you would support him? You would vote for him for speaker? BURGESS: Well, again, he`s coming to meet with the Texas delegation tomorrow morning. I`m anxious to hear what he has to say about it, a couple of things, but I`ve always had a lot of regard and affection for Representative Ryan. Back in 2010, I was one of the 13 people who endorsed his pathway to prosperity, when many people in my leadership told me not to do that. I thought it was a fairly bold statement to get out there and say, we are going to reform things from tax code to entitlement. And I was ready to go into the trenches with him. HAYES: All right. Congressman Burgess, thank you very much. Paul Ryan has given the House Freedom Caucus until Friday to decide if they will officially back him. Meanwhile, today John Boehner said that he`s scheduled the house GOP leadership elections for a week from today, with the floor vote for speaker of the house slated for the following day, October 29. Which gives Republicans a narrow window to settle on their candidate if Paul Ryan does not vote. At this moment, here`s what we know. The Freedom Caucus has reported that they have a supermajority in place to support him, but not enough to actually formally endorse him. And joining me now is Representative Charlie Dent, Republican from Pennsylvania. Do you understand what played out with the House Freedom Caucus? Is this a no-go on Paul Ryan or a go? CHARLIE DENT, REPRESENTATIVE OF PENNSYLVANIA: Well, I think that remains to be seen. Paul Ryan said yesterday that he wanted three particular groups within the House Republican Conference to endorse him. The Tuesday group and the Republican Main Street members, which I`m a cochair of the Tuesday group, the Republican Study committee, as well as the Freedom Caucus. It sounds as if, from what I just heard on your show, that they have not endorsed them, but there seems to be some support. The question for Paul Ryan, to me, is not whether or not he can win the speaker`s chair. I think he can do it. The real question is what does he do once he wins? That`s the issue. That we have to change the underlying governing and political dynamic that got us into this situation. Paul Ryan is a really smart guy. I support him. He knows, he knows, that the first thing he`s going to have to do is work on a debt ceiling agreement, he`s going to have to work on a budget agreement, and an omnibus appropriation bill, transportation bill. And we know all of these measures are going to require some level of bipartisan collaboration and cooperation. That is a fact. Now, if Paul does those things, I suspect some of the members who were critical of John Boehner and Kevin McCarthy will also be critical of Paul Ryan and may try to undermine him. So, that`s my fear for Paul. And that`s why Paul has been somewhat guarded or hesitant in wanting to accept this position. So, we need to hear from Paul Ryan to see how he feels about this decision of the freedom caucus. I don`t know how he`ll take it. HAYES: Can I get your response to that Matt Salmon quote about how you`re try to hire a maid and the maid will only work certain hours. I found that such a strange metaphor for so many reasons. I mean, number one, we`re talking about speaker of the house of the United States. People talking about this job in this way that just seems completely ahistorical. This is a job for, I think it`s safe to say, hundreds of years in our republic, people have done anything in their power to attain. Suddenly, things are so dysfunctional that he`s comparing it to a low paid service job? DENT: Well, I find it ironic that some of the members who represent a minority of the House Republican Conference have made demands on the speaker candidates, but when Paul Ryan, who is running for speaker, makes demands on the members, those same members find it troubling. So, you can`t have it both ways, and I`m also concerned, too, that a small minority members of our conference on the one hand wouldn`t have veto power over who should be our next speaker. HAYES: Yes. DENT: Yet at the same time, they are insisting that we enforce the Hastert Rule, which is really not a rule, but the notion that a majority of the majority should vote for legislation on the floor. So, on the one hand they want Hastert Rule enforced on legislation, but they want to maintain the majority presence of a veto over the speaker. You really can`t have it both ways. HAYES: That`s a excellent point. Congressman Charlie Dent, thanks for your time tonight. DENT: Thank you. HAYES: Still ahead, why Bernie Sanders thinks its important EXXON should be held accountable for the alleged climate change fraud. Stay with us. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Where are we? When are we? CHRISTOPHER LOOYD, ACTOR: We`re descending toward Hill Valley, California, at 4:29 pm, on Wednesday, October 21st, 2015. MICHEAL J. FOX, ACTOR: 2015? You mean we`re in the future? (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: Well, there are no flying cars, self-drying jackets or hoverboards, real hoverboards, just to be clear. Today we learned one huge part of Back to the Future is spot on, and particularly relevant right now. Screenwriter Bob Gale told The Daily Beast that casino hotel tycoon, Biff Tannen was based on none other than Donald Trump. Asked about the uncanny resemblance to Trump, he specifically cited a scene where Biff stands in front of paintings of himself. Gale says of Trump, we thought about it when we made the movie. Are you kidding? What the film makers could not have known is that in 2015, Trump would parlay his real estate power into political power, just like Biff did. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) THOMAS WILSON, ACTOR: Just want to say one thing -- god bless America. DONALD TRUMP, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We are going to make America great again. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: Fortunately, in the real 2015, America has not turned into the dystopian wasteland that Biff presides over in the movie. Well, at least not yet. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Proponents of the global warming theory say that higher levels of greenhouse gases, especially Co2, are causing world temperatures to rise and burning fossil fuels is the reason, but scientific evidence remains inconclusive as to whether human activities affect the global climate. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: More or less the party line at EXXON throughout the `90s and beyond, but last week a blockbuster new report from the Pulitzer Prize winning Inside Climate News shows the company had a different approach to climate change years earlier. You see, as far back as the 1970s EXXON`s own scientists were researching and drawing conclusions about the relationship between fossil fuels and rise in temperatures. One expert reportedly telling the company`s management committee in 1977, there is general scientific agreement, the most likely manner in which mankind is influencing the global climate is through carbon dioxide release from the burning of fossil fuels. Now, according to Inside Climate News, EXXON later curtailed its research on carbon dioxide toward the end of the 1980`s, and instead, this has been widely documented, started funneling money into groups, like the American Petroleum Institute, and the misleadingly titled Global Climate Coalition. They did that to spread denial and doubt about manmade climate change. In a recent interview with public radio show, On the Media, a spokesperson for EXXON Mobil disputed the new report, and insisted his company does not bankroll climate denial. RICHARD KEIL, EXXON MOBILE: We don`t fund those groups. And as the science has emerged and become clearer, we`re more committed than ever to researching this important topic. BOB GARFIELD, ON THE MEDIA: We don`t fund them or we didn`t fund them? You got out of the funding business in 2009 or some such, but for 20 years before that -- KEIL: I`m going to finish my thought here, Bob. GARFIELD: Please clarify this for me. Are not funding or did not fund them? KEIL: We are not funding. GARFIELD: Okay. So who cares? HAYES: I love Bob. Coming up, the presidential candidate who is now calling the Department of Justice to look into what EXXON knew, Bernie Sanders joins me next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HAYES: Bernie Sander just wrote a letter to Attorney General Loretta Lynch, calling for the Department of Justice task force to investigate oil and gas giant EXXON Mobil. A short time ago I got a chance to speak to the senator and ask him why. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) BERNIE SANDERS, (D) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: There is evidence that suggests that way back in the 1970s, EXXON`s scientists did studies and told the leadership of EXXON that climate change was real and potentially very, very dangerous. That`s what they told them. EXXON took in this information and then proceed to spend tens of millions of dollars on organizations whose job in life was to deny the reality of climate change. If all of that is true, that happens to be against the law. HAYES: But why can`t -- that just seems like doing a terrible thing, but why would that be against the law? If you said, yeah, we know this thing is true, and we`re going to pay money to -- SANDERS: That is a violation of racketeering legislation. It is very similar to what the tobacco industry was convicted of, and why they paid a huge settlement. It wasn`t that they were selling a product that caused cancer and killed people, it was that they lied. They had evidence within the industry to say their product was causing serious health problems. What did they do? They went public, as you know, and said, no, I`m Dr. Jones, smoking cigarettes is great for you. They lied. That`s the crime here. If it is true, and that`s what we want the attorney general and a task force to investigation, they are breaking the law. HAYES: Obviously a U.S. senator can`t -- the criminal justice system works in an independent fashion for a reason, right? So, you`re asking for a task force to essentially have a preliminary investigation, as opposed to reaching some -- SANDERS: And here`s the significance and the importance of this, Chris. Look, I happen to believe, obviously, that climate change is real, it is one of the great planetary crises that we face. The science is the community is virtually ours. But when you have people like the Koch brothers and EXXON Mobile today, spending huge amounts of money trying to deny that reality, it slows up the entire world from aggressively addressing what is an international crisis. This is serious stuff. HAYES: Do you anticipate we`re going to see a lot of fossil fuel dollars flowing into this next election? SANDERS: Do I anticipate that? Let me guess. Koch brothers are on record as saying they will spend in 900 million dollars in this campaign cycle. They make most of their money through fossil fuel. And the other big energy companies certainly will not be far behind. And here`s something I want to point out. When you look at a Republican party today, which is reactionary in so many areas, but on this particular area, in many cases, most of these guys deny the reality of climate change, or they say we`re not sure. How do you think that happens? It happens because the Republican party is significantly funded by the Koch brothers and the big energy companies. And the day after some Republican gets up there and says, you know, I read this stuff here, I think climate change is real, we`ve got to do something, their funding is gone, and they`ll be primaried. HAYES: It`s interesting, because I was listening to Rolling Stone author, Tim Dickinson, who just wrote a piece about the House Freedom Caucus. And, one of the things he actually pointed out is that the House Freedom Caucus is opposed to some of the big funders of the Republican party on certain issues, some of the trade stuff, they have made some noise about. But, one place where they`re really aligned is on fossil fuels. There`s really just a shocking amount of unanimity there. SANDERS: I`m trying to think where is the exception to that rule, but this is what I would 99% guarantee to you, that any Republican who said climate change is real, we have to take bold action to transform our energy system, that person would be primaried by big energy money and likely defeated. HAYES: Lindsey Graham has obviously sort of managed to survive, although he`s not doing particularly well in the polls. Do you think that essentially the warm is turning on the power? You`ve been on Capitol Hill, now, for several decades. You`re not from a state like Kentucky, right, where they really have kind of a death grip. Do you think their power is ebbing in any way? SANDERS: I think public consciousness is growing that climate change is real. People are seeing it with their own eyes. They`re seeing it in California with the droughts, they`re seeing it in the southwest and other areas in terms of forest fires, which are worse and more numerous than used to be the case. They`re seeing it in a heat wave in Pakistan. They`re seeing it with their own eyes, and people are saying, yeah, we better do something about it. HAYES: But you`ve spent a career talking to voters where they are, and when -- it occurs to me part of the problem is you`re talking to someone in Iowa, in a diner, who is watching jobs leave their town. Is this something that comes up when you`re doing -- when you`re doing campaign events? Is this front of mind for voters? SANDERS: I think the issue of climate change is on the minds of a lot more people than the pundits think. I think it`s growing. I think people are just very, very concerned. The evidence, scientifically, and what people are saying is so real, people are saying, hey, I`m worried about my kids and grandchildren and what kind of planet they will be living in. HAYES: You do hear that? SANDERS: Absolutely. Absolutely. Younger people absolutely, I think you`re seeing it more with older people as well. HAYES: All right, Bernie Sanders, Senator from Vermont, presidential candidate, Brooklyn native, here in his home city of New York. Great to have you. SANDERS: Thank you very much. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: That is All In for this evening. A reminder, it is a big day on Capitol tomorrow as the Democratic front runner, Hillary Clinton testifies to the House Benghazi committee. We`ll be covering that live all day here on MSNBC. And then, this Friday, Hillary Clinton will be sitting down for an exclusive interview with Rachel Maddow, that will be her first interview since Joe Biden decided not to run, and her first after her testimony to the Benghazi committee. You do not want to miss that. I, myself, am really looking forward to that. The Rachel Maddow Show starts right now. Good evening, Rachel. THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED. END