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All In with Chris Hayes, Transcript 10/07/15

Guests: Josh Alcorn, David Brock, Louise Slaughter, Jess McIntosh, IanMichler, Sam Seder, Matt Welch

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) ALEX WAGNER, MSNBC GUEST HOST (voice-over): Tonight on ALL IN -- JOSEPH BIDEN, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Things can change in a heartbeat, I know. WAGNER: The movement to Draft Joe Biden reaches the airwaves with a new ad that is being called both powerful and tasteless. Josh Alcorn of the Draft Biden campaign will join me live. Then, the Donald unveils Trump 2.0. DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I`m not going anywhere, he knows. WAGNER: Ben Carson stands his ground. BEN CARSON (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: From the indications I got, they did not rush the shooter. WAGNER: And we have another admission on Benghazi. REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R), CALIFORNIA: I could have been very -- I couldn`t have been more clear. WAGNER: And the canned hunting of lions in Africa. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Got to money, there are people here who will take it. WAGNER: Tonight, the explosive new MSNBC documentary, "Blood Lions". UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I want to have these on my wall and tell a story about them. I want to be able to select them. WAGNER: ALL IN starts right now. Good evening from San Francisco. I`m Alex Wagner in for Chris Hayes. Less than a weeks before the first Democratic debate of the 2016 cycle, speculation about whether Vice President Joe Biden may still join the race is shifting into overdrive. And Hillary Clinton is taking pre- emptive steps to position herself against her opponent. In an interview today with PBS. She came out against the Trans Pacific Partnership, the record breaking trade deal just negotiated by the Obama administration and now opposed by Senator Bernie Sanders. It is a deal the vice president would have no choice but to stand behind. And Clinton`s position draws a new battle line if he decides to run. According to a new Quinnipiac poll, Clinton has reasons for concern. While Clinton still leads the field in the crucial swing states of Florida, Ohio and Pennsylvania, Biden fares a lot better in general election matchups against the presidential candidate. In Florid, for example, Clinton trails both of the hometown candidates, Jeb Bush and Marco Rubio, and she barely edges out Donald Trump. But Biden managed to beat all three, crushing Trump by 14 points. With early November filing deadlines fast approaching, the super PAC Draft Biden is making a big push to seal the deal, releasing an ad today that reintroduces voters to the Biden family`s tragic story. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) BIDEN: I got a phone call, my wife and three children were Christmas shopping. The tractor-trailer broadsided them and killed my wife and killed my daughter. And they weren`t sure that my sons would live. Incredible bond I have with my children is a gift I`m not sure, I would have had, had I not been through what I went through. But by focusing on my sons, I found my redemption. (END VIDEO CLIP) WAGNER: The ad comes just a day after a political report alleging that Biden himself was the force for a "New York Times" column about his son Beau`s dying wish that he run for president. The implication being that Biden was using Beau`s son death from brain cancer at the age of 46 for possible political gain. While Biden`s office wouldn`t confirm or deny that he was a source, it called the report both categorically false and offensive. Joining me now is Josh Alcorn, senior adviser for Draft Biden, and a former senior adviser to Beau Biden. Josh, thanks for joining us. Let`s get to the act. JOSH ALCORN, DRAFT BIDEN: Thanks for having me. WAGNER: David Axelrod, President Obama`s senior strategist from days of yore, has called the ad in a tweet, tasteless but exploitive -- tasteless, powerful but exploitive. I guess I wonder when you read that assessment, what was your thought? ALCORN: Look, I have the utmost respect for David Axelrod. I worked for Beau for a long time. You know, I never would have approved something that I thought was problematic. I would point to the White House press secretary, Josh Earnest, who today said the ad was powerful and that the vice president`s stories is one of the most compelling in American politics. WAGNER: Well, let`s talk about the issue of whether or not it is problematic or not. This is coming a day after a "Politico" report sort of seems to feed the narrative that perhaps Joe Biden is more calculating politically than the country thinks, especially as it regards his potential bid for president. Do you worry at all that this ad cements that narrative or furthers it in any way? ALCORN: Not at all. Look, I think that -- I know that Beau thought his father would make an incredible president. He was there in 1987 and 2007 when he ran. So, no, I don`t think it is true. What I`m thinking about right now is the private conversation that the vice president and beau had. I know it was a private conversation. So, that report left a little bit of a bad taste in my mouth. WAGNER: So, you`re not -- so it left a bad taste in your mouth, but you`re not worried about the line of argument? ALCORN: I`m not worried about that line of argument at all. No, I think the conversation that the vice president had with Beau should be private. And that should be private. WAGNER: OK. So, Josh, I have to ask, there is a suggestion that Vice President Biden`s decision as to whether he is going to run is imminent. And I wonder as you see this, is there a date which he actually has to announce he will run? Mark Halperin of "Bloomberg Politics" suggested that he might wait until the after the New Hampshire and Iowa primaries to decide to throw his hat on the ring. Do you think that would be possible? ALCORN: Look, I think the vice president`s decision is his to make. I think what we`re seeing with Draft Biden is we have an incredible amount of support across the country. We have over 220,000 people who signed our petition at We put this ad up today. I think there`s an incredibly powerful ad that tells a story that not a lot of folks know about Joe Biden. His tragedies and the difficulties he faced early in his political career and how because of that he became the person that he is today with an enormous amount of empathy for people who have troubles of any kind. That is really what we`re trying to get at with this and I think that`s -- WAGNER: Sure, Josh, but the name of your group is Draft Biden. And I guess I wonder for the 220,000 people who signed up, do they care when he actually says he`s going to run or not? I mean, is there a point where this effort of yours will cease to exist? Will it continue through the several primaries? ALCORN: We`re ready when he is ready and we`ll be here when he makes his mind up. WAGNER: So, that would be a no? ALCORN: I`m telling you, we`re ready when he is ready. We will keep organizing and doing the work when he is ready to do it, he`s got a smoother path. WAGNER: Thank you, Josh Alcorn. Good to see you. ALCORN: Thanks for having me. WAGNER: Over the past few days, Joe Biden has had just a taste of the heightened scrutiny that comes with running for president. And if he decides to make it official it will probably get a lot worse. "New York Magazine" reported that Hillary Clinton`s campaign is already compiling a research file on Joe Biden, with materials on his ties to Wall Street, his alleged reluctance to support the raid that killed Osama bin Laden and his role in the Anita Hill saga of the early `90s. According to the report, that effort is being led by Correct the Record, a pro-Clinton super PAC. And the founder of Correct the Record, David Brock, joins me now. David, thanks for joining me live and in person here in San Francisco. DAVID BROCK, CORRECT THE RECORD: Thanks. It`s great to be in this beautiful city with you. WAGNER: So, what about the "New York Magazine` report? Are you compiling a pile of opposition research on Joe Biden? BROCK: Look, this is an anonymous report. I don`t want to really sit here. This is a pro-Hillary Clinton super PAC, but I don`t want to sit here and talk about our internal strategies, you can understand that. (CROSSTALK) BROCK: The thing I really don`t like are Democratic strategists who go out into the media and reveal what they`re doing. So, I don`t want to do that. WAGNER: OK, when you read the "Politico" story, when you saw this ad, did you think that this is an increasingly damaging narrative about the vice president, that perhaps there was political calculation and involving Beau Biden and the narrative about his bid for the presidency? BROCK: Well, look, I mean, the truth is, all politicians calculate. And so, I mean, that`s just the truth. WAGNER: So it`s fair game? BROCK: I think everything is fair game. You know, we`re going to have a small D democratic process. We have one going on now. There is a primary going on and if the vice president chooses to get in, that will be a significant challenge. And we`ll cross that bridge when we come to it. He`s not yet a candidate. So -- WAGNER: Did you know anything about the political report coming out? BROCK: No, I did not. WAGNER: OK. So, there was no collision there at all? BROCK: No, no, no. WAGNER: When we`re talking about everything in politics is fair game or calculation is part of the process, what is your thinking about Hillary Clinton coming out against the TPP, the Trans Pacific Partnership today, given the fact that she has called it the gold standard, she`s made comments back to 2010, seemingly in support of the trade deal. Do you think today represents a turning of a corner? Do you think it is in line with what she has proposed she is as a candidate? What is your response? BROCK: I do. I think, you know, as the campaign goes on, there are going to be some issues where maybe she had not taken a stand before and maybe she even comes out and says something that is in disagreement with what she said a few years ago. I mean, that`s all going to be possible in a campaign, sure. So, she evaluated this issue. She took her time. She came up with a decision that I think will show her to be what I believe is the real progressive champion in this race. WAGNER: The RNC had not surprisingly at all -- a response to the Hillary Clinton remarks in TPP. And they write or they release a statement saying, "Despite helping negotiate the Trans Pacific trade deal as secretary of state and calling it a gold standard, Hillary Clinton reversed her position after admitting she had not even read the final agreement. Hillary Clinton`s painful waffling on TPP has been a case study in political expediency and precisely why the majority of Americans don`t trust her." Political expediency seems to be a soft spot for Hillary Clinton, a vulnerable spot. And how worried are you that this cements that narrative? BROCK: Well, I don`t agree that political expediency is something that is part of a narrative for Hillary Clinton, or at least a truthful narrative certainly isn`t. Look, she has a progressive record that goes back decades as you know as a passionate advocate for strong families and strong America. And I think her positions on this are totally consistent with that. She has evaluated it. She`s come out. She`s now a candidate. You know, when you`re in the administration, you follow what the president wants, right? WAGNER: Sure, but maybe upwards of 40, 45 comments and support of the TPP, you don`t think that`s an issue at all? BROCK: No, I really don`t. I mean, people now know where she stands and that`s what she`s going to do as the presidential candidate and hopefully president. WAGNER: How much do you think Bernie Sanders is in her rear-view mirror when she makes statements like this? BROCK: I actually don`t really believe that either. I mean, I think there is a myth on the left that Hillary Clinton is a somehow a Johnny come lately to progressive ideals, values and ideas. People can go way back to her history, to children`s defense fund, to legal aid clinics, to rural education in Arkansas, and then they can go much more recently to the `07 and `08 campaign where she talked about regulating Wall Street, derivatives, getting rid of carried interest. So, I think the idea that she is a Johnny come lately and is responding to the Elizabeth Warren wing or the Bernie Sander`s surge, I don`t really buy that at all. I think that`s a distortion of her actual record. WAGNER: OK, David, you have done a primo job of rebutting the points about Hillary Clinton -- I guess I wonder, where do you think she is vulnerable? BROCK: Where do I think she`s vulnerable? Well, I think, you know, she said the other day that she is a reserved person. She is probably acknowledged, you know, she is not Barack Obama, she`s not Bill Clinton, she is Hillary Clinton. She is a different person. Being reversed maybe isn`t always the best trait in a politician. But she`s got a lot more going for her substantively she beats the field on other side I believe. And we`re going into the Democratic debate and voters are going to make up their minds. But I really believe that -- look at the program she has rolled out. Now, it`s difficult to get through the clutter of e-mail controversy and everything else. But that, I think we`re turning the page on because of Kevin McCarthy and lots of other things. And people will see that. Look at her actual plans, they really detailed. They really responded to families, children, to America`s needs right now. WAGNER: We will be talking more about Kevin McCarthy and the Benghazi committee coming up. David Brock, always good to see you. Thank you very much. BROCK: Thank you very much. WAGNER: Still ahead, House Democrats pushed to dismantle the Benghazi committee after a candid admission has renewed questions about the committee`s true intent. Plus, Ben Carson won`t back down from his controversial reaction to the Oregon shootings, encouraging people to rush at gunmen. And later, we`ll have a preview of MSNBC`s new documentary on the practice of breeding lions with the explicit purpose of hunting them. Those stories and more. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) WAGNER: Today, Hillary Clinton came to the defense of Kevin McCarthy, yes, you heard that right. Well, not this Kevin McCarthy, the GOP House majority leader is hoping to replace John Boehner as speaker. This Kevin McCarthy, the Iowa resident who happens to have the Twitter handle @KevinMcCarthy. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) KEVIN MCCARTHY, IOWA RESIDENT: I`ve been getting the tweets lately, why can`t you speak a coherent spot? John Boehner version 2. Kevin McCarthy is a dork. You know, it was really funny at first, and they just kept going and going and going. And it wouldn`t stop. (END VIDEO CLP) WAGNER: Ever since last week when Congressman Kevin McCarthy seemed to finally admit that the Republican-led Benghazi committee is just a political operation to damage Hillary Clinton, Iowa`s Kevin McCarthy has been the mistaken target of Twitter assaults by those enraged by the majority leader. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) WAGNER: So instead of focusing on the American tragedy they said they focused on they`re spending our American taxpayer dollars to play on electoral politics. I get it, it`s gross. But it`s not my fault, it`s the house Republican. (END VIDEO CLIP) WAGNER: Along with the video, Hillary Clinton tweeted to @KevinMcCarthy today, "Sorry about the mean tweets you have been getting, been there." Coming up, I`ll speak with the Democratic congressman who forced a vote today to disband the Benghazi committee. That`s next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) WAGNER: If there is one thing the House GOP has been able to accomplish it has been creating special committees to conduct investigations that are not political in any way. Today, they created another one to investigate Planned Parenthood even though there have already been three house panels on Planned Parenthood since the month of July. Special committees are what Republicans do best. In fact, if you`ll recall, last week, House Majority Leader Kevin McCarthy listed the Benghazi committee as one of the GOP`s top accomplishments. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) REP. MCCARTHY: Everybody thought Hillary Clinton was unbeatable, right? But we put together a Benghazi special committee, a select committee. What are her numbers today? Her numbers are dropping, why? Because she`s untrustable. (END VIDEO CLIP) WAGNER: It was that candid admission that led to the latest calls, including one from "The New York Times" to disband the select committee on Benghazi. Kevin McCarthy, the man who wants to be the next speaker of the House, insisted again today that the Benghazi committee is not political. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) REP. MCCARTHY: Let`s be very clear. Benghazi is not political. It was created for one purpose and one purpose only, to find the truth on behalf of the families of the four dead Americans, period. I have been very clear about this. I couldn`t have been more clear in my description of what is going forward, and I have stated that. But there is only one reason the committee was created, period. (END VIDEO CLIP) WAGNER: Today, Democrats pushed a vote to dismantle the Benghazi committee, but Republicans defeated the attempt essentially voting for its continuation. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) REP. LOUISE SLAUGHTER (D), NEW YORK: Nobody on either side of the House up there in the chamber should have voted not to disband this Benghazi committee. REP. ELIJAH CUMMINGS (D), MARYLAND: The core Republican goal is to use taxpayer funds and I want to emphasize that. Taxpayer funds to damage Secretary Clinton`s bid for president. (END VIDEO CLIP) WAGNER: The Democrat behind the motion to disband the committee joins me now, Congresswoman Louise Slaughter of New York. Congresswoman, thank you for joining me this evening. SLAUGHTER: Glad to be here. WAGNER: Can you tell us what happened, what happened here in your effort to disband the Benghazi committee? SLAUGHTER: Well, you know, we recently, we have (INAUDIBLE) incredibly impeachable -- the fact there have been nine Benghazi committees, one in the State Department, three in the Senate, five of them in the House, all of them saying we found nothing, including two in the House conducted by the Intelligence Committee and Armed Service Committee led by three pretty remarkable Republicans who said there is nothing there. But they won`t take yes for an answer. They will keep at it and start up something else. Because they believe that they would do a good job in hurting a presidential candidate. None of us were elected to do that. Using funds that we get from the taxpayers of the United States to run Congress at $4 billion a year, they -- this one committee, this Benghazi committee has spent $4.6 million, 17 a month, that was longer than any investigation, such as the assassination of President Kennedy, D-Day, or the Pearl Harbor. Can you imagine that? They came up with absolutely nothing. WAGNER: Well, to that point, this has gone on longer than the Warren commission, Iran Contra, Watergate. SLAUGHTER: Yes. WAGNER: Major, major commissions, that is uncovering some truths that were very, very important to the country, not that Benghazi isn`t. But much has already been discovered about Benghazi. SLAUGHTER: It`s all been discovered. It`s all been discovered. There is nothing there for them to find, $4.6 million has been spent. Why wouldn`t they -- (CROSSTALK) WAGNER: My question to you is -- well, no, I`m wondering if -- within the halls of Congress, there is private consternation among Republicans that you have heard, any sense that this is a fools errand, and that Kevin McCarthy`s comments have revealed the truth and perhaps this is not a line of investigation they should pursue, privately do Republicans acknowledge this? SLAUGHTER: I believe they do. Let me put it this way. I have known some of them for quite a long while. I know that they are sensible persons, and -- but they go along with this party line. I believe they think they`re winning, I gather, that they think they`re so successful. Planned Parenthood thing really astonishes me. They grill Cecile Richards for five hours, unmercifully, and they didn`t find a darn thing. And everybody denied what they said. Everything they said about Planned Parenthood is dead wrong. One in five American women have gone to Planned Parenthood for health care, cancer screenings, other kinds of test, STD tests, and they want to take it away. And they seem to be so intent on taking away health care on people. All of those votes do away with ACA, it`s almost sickness I think. As Kevin McCarthy would say, I don`t think it`s trustable. (LAUGHTER) WAGNER: Congresswoman Louise Slaughter, reminding us of the word of the hour. Untrustable. Thank you for your time. SLAUGHTER: Don`t ever forget it. Thank you. WAGNER: Joining me now, Jess McIntosh, spokesperson for Emily`s List. Jess, finally, another committee that we can sink our teeth into, as a country, as taxpayers. I guess, what is your reaction to this latest salvo from House Republicans vis-a-vis Planned Parenthood? JESS MCINTOSH, EMILY`S LIST: I mean, Kevin McCarthy only said what we all already knew, that the Benghazi committee was a sham committee. It was politically motivated. It was et up to tear down Hillary Clinton. That was the only reason. The idea that you waste time and taxpayer dollars to attack one woman`s poll numbers is pretty despicable. The idea that you would waste time and taxpayer dollars to attack millions of women`s access to health care is something else entirely. Hillary Clinton is a really tough woman and she has an amazing record to stand on, and she is running a campaign that I think is going to be just fine as she makes her case for why she ought to be president, especially why all the Republicans can`t seem to get it together to say anything sensical, whether in the House or in the Republican field. But the women who rely on Planned Parenthood need those services, and they need them more than Republicans need to score cheap political points. I just find it really disturbing that these are people who ask for your votes and then when they get to elected office turn around and do that with it. WAGNER: Well, I think what we`re seeing is the governing agenda for the Republican congress, which is don`t actually legislate, but establish select committees that are really partisan efforts. I mean, instead of actually doing the hard work of government it`s basically all about committees. MCINTOSH: They don`t actually believe in governing, this is why they`re going through an existential crisis in the Republican Party right now. And you get things like Bobby Jindal blaming the Oregon shooting on abortion on single moms, and Ben Carson saying that we all ought to rush of attackers instead of dealing with gun laws. Like Republicans don`t actually believe that government can solve any problems. They don`t actually think that government works. So, they campaign on nonsense but then when they get elected, they don`t know what to do with the levers of power. They don`t believe they`re there to help the people who voted for them or make life any better for the American families, so they just keep campaigning. They just keep politicking. And at some point, you have to be a grown-up and actually govern or people are going to stop voting for you. Their own party is turning on themselves, both in the Republican presidential field and in the halls of Congress, we are seeing huge fractures of the Republican Party. And it`s because they don`t know how to get anything done and it`s becoming real obvious to everyone. WAGNER: Well, Jess, how prevalent do you think that women`s rights are going to be in the 2016 campaign? Because we know we narrowly avoided a government shutdown at the beginning of this month over Planned Parenthood. The fight is not yet over. That funding expires for the government in December. I mean, this is certainly an issue through the end of the year. Does it bleed into 2016 and are people going to vote on this? MCINTOSH: Of course, it does and it will. Look, if you had asked me in 2008 how big of a deal I would have thought reproductive rights would be in the 2016 presidential election, I would have said very small. But then the Tea Party happened and they took over, and after they won in the wave of 2010, all of these guys came in and we started hearing about forcible rape and we started hearing about defunding Planned Parenthood. We started hearing about presidential candidates who do not favor abortion exemptions for things like the life of the women involved. I mean, these guys are so extreme. They have woken up a generation of women who thought that their mothers had put these rights to bed, who thought that these debates were long settled. Clearly, they`re not. And obviously, women all over the country are incredibly fired up about this. I think you`re going to see a huge turnout among women in 2016, especially young single women. WAGNER: Jess, let this be the moment where the country calls for a select committee to investigate the committees. Jess McIntosh, always good to see you, thanks for your time. MCINTOSH: Thanks. WAGNER: Coming up, presidential candidate Donald Trump`s latest surprise move. He is trying to act like a legitimate presidential candidate. I will explain what that means just ahead. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TRUMP: Thank you, everybody. (END VIDEO CLIP) (COMMERCIAL BREAK) WAGNER: On Monday, Donald Trump trolled Marco Rubio by sending him water bottles with Trump`s face on them along with a note that said, "since you`re always sweating we thought you could use some water." Despite that juvenile stunt, it appears that Trump is ready to put on his big boy pants. The Washington Post reports today that Trump is plotting his second act, which involves a shift to a more traditional campaign, that means deepening his political organization beyond just the early states, preparing new platforms and notably putting together and getting ready to run his first political ads at a cost of up to $20 million. At an Iowa campaign rally, Trump explained his decision not to run ads until now. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) DONALD TRUMP, 2016 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: If you`re covered a lot the last thing you want to do now is see Trump is covered all over the programs and then we put an ad in, right? Who the hell wants to see an ad? You OD on Trump, that`s not good. I can`t have that. (END VIDEO CLIP) WAGNER: In an effort to close the empathy gap with female voters, Trump also reportedly plans to deploy his wife Melania and his daughter, Ivanka, for public appearance highlighting women`s health issues. But it is not all grownup business. The Post reports that at Trump`s campaign headquarters, there is a wall of shame featuring downcast photos of Rick Perry and Scott Walker, the two candidates who have already dropped out of the race. Trump`s campaign manager meanwhile vowed that The Donald would not be joining Walker and Perry on the sidelines, no matter what happens. We`re going to the convention, said his campaign manager. Adding, there is nobody who can get Trump out of the race. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) WAGNER: Ben Carson is doubling down after suggesting that he might be able to stop a mass shooting like the tragedy that unfolded in Oregon last week. Carson came under intense criticism after his response, when asked yesterday what he would do if somebody pointed a gun at him and asked his religion as the Oregon shooter is alleged to have done with some of his victims. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) BEN CARSON, 2016 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Not only would I not probably cooperate with him, I would not just stand there and let him shoot me. I would say hey, guys, everybody attack him, he may shoot me but he can`t get us all. (END VIDEO CLIP) WAGNER: Asked to defend those comments, implying that the victims somehow let themselves be killed, Carson dug in. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) CARSON: Form the indications that I got, they did not rush the shoot. The shooter can only shoot one person at a time. He cannot shoot a whole group of people. And so the idea is overwhelm him so that not everybody gets killed. If you know somebody is going to kill you and they`re going to systematically going to kill you one by one, why would you sit there and wait for them to do that? (END VIDEO CLIP) WAGNER: Putting aside the fact that the Department of Homeland Security strongly recommends that people not rush an active shooter unless they have no other choice, Carson doesn`t seem to actually know very much about exactly what happened in Oregon. Asked this morning if he was familiar with Chris Mintz, the heroic army veteran who did rush the shooter and was shot multiple times, but survived, Dr. Carson admitted he had never heard of him. Joing me is Matt Welch, editor-in-chief of Reason Magazine; and MSNBC contributor Sam Seder, host of The Majority Report. Matt, let me start with you. Of all the things one can say about this moment for Ben Carson, it doesn`t seem as if he maybe understands how offensive his suggestion is to many, many people. MATT WELCH, REASON MAGAZINE: I think that it`s a basic kind of rule of politics, don`t blame the victims when they`re still being buried. It`s just kind of a comportment issue. Ben Carson we know has a kind of tin ear, or part of his selling proposition if you can call it that is that he is not going to speak like a normal politician. That means he is going to be very unpolished at times and sometimes he`s going to say things that are directly outrageous. I think this is a perfect opportunity for him to be reminded of the fact that if you`re going to run for president, you are going to need to learn how to talk about big national events and you can have different opinions about them and about the second amendment and all of that. But have some basic empathy for people that you`re talking about and don`t even by vague association or direct association blame people for dying. WAGNER: Well, right. And then Sam, there is the question of whether this is actually a policy prescription that Ben Carson is making which is rush the shooter, defend yourself, throw yourself in the line of fire. I mean, if that was the policy one can imagine post-9/11, what if the U.S. government had said, oh, just follow the lead of the men on board the flight that went down over Shanksville, Pennsylvania. We don`t need to worry about establishing networks and a system by which to combat terrorism. If you`re on a plane that`s going down, just rush to the terrorists and throw yourself in the line of fire. SAM SEDER, HOST, THE MAJORITY REPORT: Well, I mean, you know, frankly we`ve seen so far in this Republican race that policy prescriptions aren`t really necessary. I mean, bravado seems to work. Frankly I`m not convinced that Ben Carson, it`s a gaffe in his mind. And frankly, I am not convinced that it won`t help him in the Republican primary. I mean, look, Ben Carson is not saying anything that Republican after Republican has either implied or said directly. He is simply now getting attention because he is one of the top contenders in the Republican primary. So I`m not -- you know, Ben Carson may need to learn a lot of things about a lot of things, in fact I think he does, but I am not convinced that he isn`t quite calculating in talking this way and I`m quite convinced he`s going to be rewarded for it at least in the Republican primary. Matt, do you think he gets rewarded for this? I mean, he has made other comments that are also controversial and so far he has suggested that it`s somehow inappropriate for President Obama to visit with the victims, the families of the victims, that has gotten some comments from Representative Earl Blumenauer. I want to play what he said today. Let`s listen to that sound. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) REP. EARL BLUMENAUER, (D) OREGON: When comments like Republican candidate Ben Carson condemning President Obama`s decision to visit and console the families in Roseberg in a private meeting, that somehow he would wait for the next one, it`s stunning. I can`t imagine a more callous, heartless remark than that of Dr. Carson who would wait until the next one. (END VIDEO CLIP) WAGNER: Matt, what is the fallout from this? WELCH: I would say there is probably going to be none. Ben Carson`s history as a national political figure began with him criticizing President Obama at a prayer breakfast. But also saying a bunch of outrageous statements he makes -- Nazi analogies, very, very quickly having to do with Obamacare or other things about American life. He compared gay marriage to bestiality. He walks a lot of these things back. But in a season where Donald Trump is a strong anti-media and anti- political correctness vibe on the Republican side I don`t think comments like this hurt him. And let`s give one more bit of lip service to him on this side. There is a notion that, you know, the first defender is you as a person, that is a thing to say at various points, maybe to use as your own comportment, to do it while we`re still burying people and somehow imply that it is their fault, I think that is where the problem is. WAGNER: So Sam, you think he gets -- you don`t think rewarded this hurts him at all. You think that he effectively gets rewarded, that this is the next iteration of the only thing to stop a bad guy with a gun, is a good guy with a gun, and why shouldn`t that good guy be you?. SEDER: Yeah, absolutely. And look, you know, the Republicans don`t want to talk about the relationship between the gun and the dead people, and so they don`t want to bring up the fact that on a policy level they are -- have no answer to these questions. None. Absolutely zero. Every answer they have has to deal with either their fantasies that they would be the hero of the day, or that the second amendment in some way makes it impossible to in any way make it inconvenient for people to get a gun regardless of what their disposition is, regardless of what they want to do with it. They make it impossible for gun manufacturers to have any sense of liability for the way their product is used. So they want to talk about other things. And the thing that comes easy to them, and the thing that is consistent with the sense of bravado that gets rewarded in the Republican Party, is this notion of like I would just take them out as if I was -- I don`t know, The Terminator, or whomever it is. I mean, whatever his fantasy is, it`s shared by a lot I think in the Republican Party. WAGNER: So Matt, in terms of this kind of narrative, continuing to infect the crop of candidates, that the machismo, the bravado, the lack of policy specifics, and many other things that Sam just outlined, I mean, where does lead this group of candidates going into the next year? I mean, what can we expect in terms of their response if Ben Carson and Donald Trump are the leaders and this is what they`re suggesting in terms of the seriousness of this party should they get the White House? WELCH: Well, actually I think Donald Trump has been more Democrat- friendly when it comes to Second Amendment issues over the years. So I wouldn`t -- I wouldn`t rule that out. Basically now in the Republican field, and for reasons that I sympathize with greatly, there is a feeling that the Democratic prescriptions after events like this also wouldn`t work, you know, expanding universal background checks to a level that people want, you know, these mass shootings are not usually conducted by people who can`t pass a background check. They -- actually most of them can. So there are policy disagreements and they`re real. And they don`t necessarily come from pure clownishness. So imagine that there will be a robust gun debate in this country for the next months, yeah. WAGNER: Do you think that there is a legitimate policy answer that is being cooked up on the right side of the aisle? Because thus far, mostly they know it`s not going to work... WELCH: Well, that`s sometimes you`re standing up before history yelling stop, right? That is the conservative, or in the national review line for a long time. And right now you see in the wake of these things usually proposals that people who take the second amendment seriously as an individual right will point out either violate that terms or are practically not very helpful. So, the emphasis will be on no right now. And there might be some talk about mental health issues, but that also is a minefield, too, in terms of effectively screening anybody who might commit one of these shootings. WAGNER: No, may also be euphemistic for status quo. Matt Welch, Sam Seder, good to see you guys. Thanks for your time. Coming up, the death of a Cecil the Lion struck a chord around the world. Tonight, MSNBC premieres a new documentary on South Africa`s industry of canned hunting. And I`ll talk to one of the main subjects of that film. That is ahead. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) WAGNER: President Obama just personally apologized for the U.S. airstrike that killed 22 workers and patients at a Doctors Without Borers hospital in Kunduz Afghanistan last weekend. In a phone call with the international president of Doctors Without Borders, President Obama offered regret over the tragic incident and he expressed his expectation that the Department of Defense investigation currently underway would provide a transparent, thorough and objective accounting of the facts and circumstances of the incident. In a statement, Doctors Without Borders said that regardless of the phone call, the group is still calling for an independent investigation into the airstrike. (COMMERCAIL BREAK) WAGNER: For weeks this summer, the world was galvanized by the killing of a Zimbwabean Lion named Cecil by an American by game trophy hunter. Authorities said that Walter Palmer, a dentist from Minnesota, paid some $50,000 to kill the famed big cat after luring it out of a protected zone. The news put Palmer into hiding and big game hunting squarely in the spotlight. The practice, which differs widely from country to country, is widely subsidized by Americans and often done in the name of so-called conservation. A new documentary on MSNBC, "Blood Lions," dives into the controversial world of big game trophy hunting in South Africa where lions are legally bred and killed for sport, often by way of a practice known as canned hunting. The documentary, which premieres tonight on MSNBC at 10:00 p.m. Eastern, follows one American hunter as he quite easily pays for a big game hunt in South Africa and brings viewers into the shocking world of legal lion breeding. I`ll talk to Ian Michler, a safari operator, environmental journalist and lead consultant on "Blood Lions," who spent decades fighting against canned hunting coming up next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: See what this one says. Well, I went online and took a look at a number of different websites. If you`ve got the money, you there are people here who will take it. I have got like a limited amount of time that I will have free. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Three days, two nights will be fine for, will be enough for the lion hunt. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Okay. Yeah, they came back with 14 animals, pictures of 14 animals, 13 of them were males and one was a female -- about $16,000 for young blonde mane male, on up to $48,000 dollars for one of the big black mane males. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They are numbered from one to fourteen. So you will see the darker and the more the manes are the expensiver they get. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Okay. Like, I want that one. Type off an email. Let me have that one. (END VIDEO CLIP) WAGNER: Tonight, "Blood Lions," an expose on legal big game hunting in South Africa premieres right here on MSNBC at 10:00 p.m. And joining me now me to discuss the very controversial world of trophy hunting is Ian Michler, a safari operator, environmental journalist and the lead consultant on the film. Ian, thanks for joining me. This is a devastating portrait of what is taking place in South Africa. And for people who don`t understand legal breeding and canned hunting, tell us why it is problematic. IAN MICHLER, SAFARI OPERATOR: Well, we have a situation where we have approximately 200 facilities and these are owned by farmers and businessmen, they`re not lion ecologists, they`re not conservationists, and they are now breeding lion intensively under agricultural-type conditions for a whole wide range of exploitative revenue streams. Canned hunting is the one that grabs the headlines, but there are a number of revenue streams as well. The lion bone trade, which sees lion bones getting shipped to Asia to be used in PCM. There`s the volunteer scam where young students are gap years students are being lured to come and work on these farms and a whole range of these revenue streams, and they`re all claiming to be for conservation purposes, which of course is completely wrong. WAGNER: So do you reject the argument entirely that big game trophy hunting can lead to or support conservationism? Or is the problem more directly isolated in South Africa? MICHLER: Well, I think we need to distinguish between what we call fair chase hunting, which is the traditional form of hunting which takes place in large landscapes, protected areas across Africa. And to that is a debate which is still legitimate in conservation circles as to whether the form of land use management makes a contribution to conversation, whether it does bring in income for communities and so on. That is distinguished from canned hunting, which as I said to you, has been carried out by these farmers and businessmen. And there`s absolutely no conversation value whatsoever in the canned hunting industry. There`s not a single lion ecologist in Africa. There`s not a single recognized conservation agency that works with any of these operators, that works with any of these breeders or hunters. And they`ll all tell you that a lion bred in captivity has no conservation value, its genetically contaminated. It won`t survive in the wild. And it`s been human imprinted, which means it`s lost its fear of humans, and that means it`s a danger to us. So, no conservation value whatsoever. But for fair chance in the wide protected areas, that is still a legitimate debate. WAGNER: And Ian, is the problem -- is most of this problematic hunting, the canned hunting, done in South Africa? Is it isolated to that part of the continent or is it more widespread than that? MICHLER: Well, it`s pretty much particular to South Africa. There are possibilities that it is taking place, or has taken place in one or two countries bordering South Africa -- Namibia, for example, Zimbabwe, for example, but if it has it will be at a very low key level. But what is interesting is that it takes place here in the United States of America, in Texas. There are many ranches in Texas which are breeding wild animals to be killed under similar circumstances. So canned hunting is taking place here in this country. WAGNER: Lions are such majestic creatures. This documentary really exposing a sin that is taking place across the world. Ian Michler, thanks so much for being here. Thanks for your time. And as a reminder, the premiere of the MSNBC documentary "Blood Lions" is tonight right here on this channel in just over an hour. That is All In for this evening. I will not be back, but Chris will be back in the anchor chair tomorrow. THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED. END