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All In with Chris Hayes, Transcript 08/28/15

Guests: McKay Coppins, Olivia Nuzzi, Charlie Pierce, Harry Shearer, TracieWashington, Lynn Sweet

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We had a win in our trade deal, we beat somebody at the border, we`ve got everything sealed up, we have a great country again. It`s possible you go, oh, no, not more, you know? But we are going to have so many victories. We`re going to make our country so great again. You know, my theme is "Make America Great Again". (CHEERS AND APPLAUSE) We are going to have so many great victories. We`re going to be so proud of this country. I just want to tell you it`s an honor to be here. I was so honored when I landed and saw those people. Then when I came here and saw all of you. It`s just like an incredible -- thank you --it`s just an incredible evening. And I`m going back and we`re going to fight in Massachusetts and in New Hampshire and we`re going to fight in Iowa, and we`re going to fight in -- I`ll tell you what? South Carolina, 30 percent and more. South Carolina is amazing. The way I look at it, Iowa so great. Incredible people. New Hampshire, so great, incredible people. Winning there, winning there. Winning in South Carolina. Maybe at some point people are going to give up. I don`t know. But we`re going to make our country great again. I love you all. I appreciate you came back, that you came out on this rather warm day to be here. I mean, Ernie, you have to have like thousands. So, thank you all very much. Again, get out there, vote. Give the good polls. You must vote. You must vote. We`re going to do something special. I love you. Thank you very much. Make America great again! Make America great again! Thank you. Thank you. (CHEERS AND APPLAUSE) Thank you. Thank you very much. CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST: That is Donald Trump who literally just instructed the crowd to give the good polls. Give the good polls to the pollsters. Tonight, Trump is attending the first close -- ticketed event of his surging presidential campaign, one he insists is not a fund-raiser, being held at the home of car dealership magnate Ernie Boch Jr., who was just pressured by Trump to marry his girlfriend, about 20 miles outside of Boston -- talking to the press before heading to the press he played to the hometown crowd. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TRUMP: I know Tom Brady who`s great. Bob Kraft is great and Coach Belichick who`s great. Those people I know but those are real winners. REPORTER: Do you think that Tom Brady should settle with the NFL? TRUMP: Leave Tom Brady alone, right? We love Tom Brady. As you know, he is a good friend of mine. I know Tom Brady. He is an honest guy, a great guy, great champion and winner. Leave him alone. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: For the second time in two days, Trump reflected on the astounding level of support his campaign has garnered. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TRUMP: We were greeted with hundreds and hundreds of people at the airport. There`s something happening. There`s a movement going on. Call it silent majority, call it whatever you want but there`s a movement going on. Thank you all very much. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: Joining me now, MSNBC political analyst and former DNC chair Howard Dean, McKay Coppins, senior political writer for "BuzzFeed News", and Olivia Nuzzi, she`s political correspondent for "The Daily Beast." Howard, Trump seemed to take a page out of your book there -- HOWARD DEAN, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes. HAYES: -- with the infamous, we`re going to win it -- DEAN: We`re going to New Hampshire! HAYES: Yes. DEAN: Iowa, love everybody in Iowa! HAYES: He was doing your routine. DEAN: Yes. HAYES: What do you make of the insult comic shtick he has gone going on? It`s very Boryspil (ph), it`s very standup. DEAN: It`s very Boryspil. That`s exactly what it reminded me of, Gotzinger (ph) or some place like that. But it`s very good. He is good. HAYES: He is good at that. DEAN: Last week, I saw him at the press conference where he started this huggy/kissy, huggy/kissy routine between Bush and Rubio, skewered them and said the worst thing I ever saw except the time that Christie hugged Obama. So, he nailed three of his primary opponents in 30 seconds with big-time whacks. It`s incredible. He`s very good at this. HAYES: That is part of what is coming across here. Someone said an interesting thing and said this is what happens when the D.C. political media encounters an actual, like an actual TV star or someone who actually -- this guy has been on television a very long time. Not only he`s on television for a long time, he`s been a public figure for extremely long time. I grew up in New York City and he was the front page of the tabloids every day was Donald Trump. MCKAY COPPINS, BUZZFEED NEWS: I think that is a good point. The amount of attention he gets from the political press is probably partly because we`re starved of people like this. I mean, if he was just -- he had a reasonably, you know, entertaining and solid reality show, he was by no means the biggest star in Hollywood, right? But when he takes that kind of Hollywood attitude and the showmanship and celebrity and applies it to politics, he`s just so quickly and immediately outshines all of his opponents. HAYES: You know, Olivia, at this point, I can basically do his stump speech by memory. Every speech there is some new riff. And I think he is doing that on purpose. He even sort of tipped his hand on that. Tonight, it was a long, pretty nasty rip on Huma Abedin, who works for Hillary Clinton, of course, and her husband Anthony Weiner, who Donald Trump had the gall to call him huge sleaze bag when Donald Trump`s own personal life is pretty notorious at this point. What do you make of that, Olivia? OLIVIA NUZZI, THE DAILY BEAST: I think Trump thrives on conflict, much like the political media thrive on conflict, or like reality TV shows thrive on conflict. And I think his calculation there is he needs to keep introducing new feuds every time he speaks to make sure people are continued to be engaged. COPPINS: I think that`s one of the reasons you saw this week that for no apparent reason, he decided to blow up the truce he had with FOX News and decide what the hell, you know, let`s start this over again. He always -- if he goes a couple of days without lobbing the bomb -- HAYES: Fighting with someone. COPPINS: -- then he feels he`s not doing what he is supposed to be doing. DEAN: Here`s what Donald Trump has -- to be serious for a minute -- that nobody else has in the campaign has, energy. Now, it`s easy to have tremendous energy when you`re doing this. HAYES: Right, you know. DEAN: What`s going to happen when the going gets tough? Sooner or later, his opponents will have to get mine got together and put out a party line, Dean is an angry man or whatever it was and stuck to it. Sooner or later, the Republicans can`t nominate him. They`re terrified. They`re really afraid he`s going to lose if they nominate him. Sooner, or later, they`re going -- they`re not going to pick somebody else because they don`t have the power to do that anymore, but they could get the top four or five people just to hammer him every single day. HAYES: This gets -- DEAN: And the churn, it`s going to start after September when more people are paying -- HAYES: That`s where the -- DEAN: That`s the first round. HAYES: Part of what is the dynamic here is this sort of fracturing that is happening in the conservative movement. A blast from the past on the campaign trail today when former House Majority Leader Eric Cantor, who Donald Trump is taking shots at, the home state of Virginia where he formally endorsed Jeb Bush to be presidential nominee. Cantor, you may recall, was a victim in 2014 of the biggest political upset in recent memory, losing his congressional primary to a college professor named David Brat, an anti-immigration candidate who almost no one in the political establishment start coming. A big part of the reason was while Brat wasn`t get much news coverage, he did get a massive boost on conservative talk radio, on the likes of Laura Ingraham, and Glenn Beck, railing against Cantor`s willingness to consider piecemeal immigration reform. Ingraham even campaigned for Brat. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) LAURA INGRAHAM, TALK RADIO HOST: Who do you think Barack Obama and Nancy Pelosi want to see win the primary. Why do they want Eric Cantor to win? They want Eric Cantor to win because Eric Cantor is an ally and the biggest fight for that will occur in the next six months to maybe even sooner in Washington, which is a fight for immigration amnesty. If Eric Cantor is re-elected, heaven forbid, I believe there is a good chance we will have amnesty by the end of the year. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: You can hear the crowd spontaneously saying amnesty in that clip. A year before, some of the same radio hosts mounted a similar campaign against comprehensive immigration reform, which gained new momentum with establishment Republicans after Mitt Romney`s loss passing in the Senate bipartisan vote in early 2013. (BEGIN AUDIOCLIP) MARK LEVIN, THE MARK LEVIN SHOW: Today they called the road map to citizenship. Ronald Reagan called it amnesty. You got that Marco? You got that Paul? And Karl Rove, as you lie through your teeth you got it, pal? This thousand page amnesty bill, comprehensive amnesty bill, in its core, is really quite similar to what happened in 1986. (END AUDIO CLIP) HAYES: Their efforts succeeded. Comprehensive reform stalled in the House and has been dead ever since. It was the same feat that befell Bush era immigration reform package which collapsed in mid-2007, after a very similar onslaught by conservative hosts. This was Michael Savage on a hunger strike by a group of DREAMers. (BEGIN AUDIO CLIP) MICHAEL SAVAGE, THE SAVAGE NATION: I say let them fast until they starve to death and it solves the problem, because then we don`t have a problem about giving them green cards because they are illegal aliens don`t belong here to begin with. They broke in to the country. They are criminals. Why do I owe them a green card because they are going to my colleges for free? (END AUDIO CLIP) HAYES: And also the same forces are aligning behind the loudest, anti-immigration voice on the Republican presidential race. Donald J. Trump, for all the coverage he gets on cable, for all our inability to turn away from the spectacle that is his campaign, as "BuzzFeed" reports, conservative talk radio is the real media machine behind Trump, consolidating his support among GOP primary voters. McKay, does that ring correct to you? COPPINS: Yes, I mean, it`s interesting because we are talking constantly. I just mentioned the FOX News effect, right? And FOX News has had an effect. No question. They helped create Trump. But if you go down the list of the biggest talk radio stars, Rush Limbaugh, 13 million weekly listeners, Sean Hannity, 12 million, Michael savage, 7 million. You go down, they are all huge Donald Trump fans, and they`re on the air every day talking him up, supporting him, defending him. That matters. That makes a big difference. And what you pointed out is immigration is probably the -- one of the biggest issues if not the biggest issue that resonates and rallies the base of conservative -- HAYES: The talk radio particularly. Talk radio has a relationship. Olivia, you`ve been following Trump. You`ve been covering him. Do you sense at Trump events that there is a kind -- that that issue is resonating in a particular way? NUZZI: Certainly, I think to the talk radio point, most of Trump supporters, at least that I`ve encountered are older, they`re white. They seem to represent the sort of people who listen to right wing talk radio. And I think -- as much as we`d like to credit cable news with being the thing that people pay the most attention to -- HAYES: Clearly. NUZZI: -- talk radio represents a large portion of the Republican electorate and I think Donald Trump tapped in to that. But I think an important part of that "BuzzFeed" that we are talking about by Rosie Gray is when she said it wasn`t clear whether or not the radio host really did support Trump, or whether or not they were trying to appease his supporters by pretending to support him. And I think that raises an interesting point about his supporters, is they are unwavering. There`s no second choice for a lot of these people. When you sea see talk radio hosts supporting someone who used to espouse Republican-friendly views, maybe that`s what you are seeing. HAYES: OK. Here`s my question for you, Howard Dean, I think you`re in a unique position to answer this. There was a time in that race that you were in, where it was like -- it was Howard Dean -- it was the Howard Dean show. DEAN: Right, right. HAYES: And everyone was like, what the hell is going on? It was the rocket ship to the moon, people coming out, Al Gore came out and endorsed you. You created something new and people didn`t know what to make of it. Then the establishment came for you. DEAN: Right. HAYES: They really did. They came for you. Are having that experience and your politics are extremely different than Donald Trump, the way you comport yourself, et cetera. But having had that experience, what is your bet about what September and October and November looks like. DEAN: It`s very hard to say because we are two different kinds of candidacies and two different kinds of people. I had substantial political experience. I run the national governors association, governor of a state for 12 years, and Trump doesn`t have any. HAYES: Right. DEAN: Nor was I reality television star. HAYES: Also true, but you never know what could happen in the future. DEAN: That`s right. So, there are some similar ties. And that is the outrage of a group of people who feel their party has sold them out. That`s sort of the commonality here. What happens usually is that mainstream voters in either party generally tend a safer choice. They want to win. That`s what happened in 2004 to me and I suspect the odds are still, that`s what`s going to happen to Donald Trump. COPPINS: And it`s important to remember that when you look at the polls, Donald Trump does best among registered voters, not likely voters. HAYES: That`s right. COPPINS: The question is whether all of those people -- he is inspiring a whole new movement of voters who will show up. They usually don`t. HAYES: And the biggest, most fascinating, genuinely most fascinating question of this election is, do the normal rules of political gravity apply throughout? DEAN: We don`t know. HAYES: Because so much has changed institutionally in terms of the funding and the rules under which this is run, you could point to the past and you can predict, but no one actually knows as we head out into -- DEAN: The other thing that`s so interesting about Trump is that he`s in some ways he`s bulletproof. I mean, he has done things that if I had done them I would have been gone. HAYES: The other question is, how long that remains? DEAN: We keep asking ourselves that question -- HAYES: My prediction is that will come (ph). Howard Dean, McKay Coppins, Olivia Nuzzi, thank you very much. Still ahead, Ted Cruz and Donald Trump form an almighty alliance over a battle that looks like has already been lost. Plus, ten years after hurricane Katrina forced people of New Orleans from their homes. Who`s returned? A look at how and why the demographics have changed. And actor and director Harry Shearer joins me to talk about his documentary, "The Big Uneasy". Those stories and more, ahead. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HAYES: Amid all the attention focused on the frontrunner in the Republican presidential race right now, another candidate is surging in the polls, that is Ben Carson, who is polling in second place nationally, leaving Jeb Bush, Ted Cruz and Marco Rubio vying third. Yesterday, Carson drew a crowd of about 2,000 people on the steps of the Arkansas state capital where he shared his thoughts on gender issues. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) BEN CARSON (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: There are those who are always trying to stir up trouble. They are always trying to drive wedges between us. You know, they tell you there`s a war on women. There`s no war on women. There maybe a war on what`s inside of women, but there is no war on women. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: War on what`s inside of women from the number two candidate in the Republican field. Up next, a look at the number one and number three candidates are teaming up to do next month and why. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TRUMP: So, we deal with Iran. You know, we`re going to have in two weeks with Ted Cruz and some other great folks, we`re going to have a rally in Washington against the Iran deal. People are saying, oh, it`s too late. You can`t stop it. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: Mark your calendars, folks, September 9th, that`s the day the Republican tag team combination of Donald Trump and Ted Cruz are planning to put an end to the Iran nuclear deal. Two Republican rivals are set to appear at an event planned at the capital, organized by the Tea Party Patriots, the Center for Security Politics and Zionist Organization of America. The White House was asked about the rally earlier today. Press Secretary Josh Earnest framed it this way. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) JOSH EARNEST, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Senator Cruz and Donald Trump have announced that they are going to host a pro-war rally on the steps of the United States capital. The same people making the same arguments against the Iran deal are the people who advocated for getting us in though the war in Iraq in 2002 and 2003. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: The last comment aimed at former Vice President Cheney who plans to denounce the Iran deal in a speech of his own a day before Trump and Cruz get on their soap box. All this blustering against the historic Iran nuclear deal seems to be coming at a time Republican opponents are realizing they don`t actually have the votes to block this deal. In an op-ed today, Delaware Senator Tom Carper became the 30th member of the Senate to public support the deal, just the latest supporter to make his support public which means the Cheney speech and Cruz-Trump event are more about wringing whatever political gain they can out of the anger towards the deal rather than actually blocking it. And Cruz partnering with Trump on this event is particularly interesting on this score, because Cruz seems to have a clear strategy, very different than anyone else in the field which is stay as close to Trump for as long as possible. Joining me now, Charlie Pierce, writer at large for "Esquire", contributor at Grantland. Charlie, Cruz from the beginning -- I remember the day after Trump was in the race when he was facing criticism for very offensive comments about Mexico sending rapists, Cruz said you shouldn`t go after him for telling the truth. He has steered clear of criticizing him. He seems to basically think he can stay close to him and hope when and if Trump gets out, take his supporters. What do you think of that as a strategy? CHARLIE PIERCE, ESQUIRE: I think it`s very shrewd. I think it`s the shrewdest strategy proposed by anybody in the single digit crowd in the Republican field right now. And I think Trump partnering with Cruz is not -- is fairly shrewd itself. He needs a bridge to the conservative evangelical base of the party. I mean, he doesn`t have any natural affinity for it. I don`t care how many times he talks about the bible. I mean, I think he knows about the bible because he spends a lot of time building hotels. But he needs a bridge to them. Cruz certainly needs the spotlight more than Trump needs evangelicals. I think it is a win-win for both of them, if you ignore the fact, as you said, that the whole effort is probably futile. HAYES: Well, I think the timing of that is interesting, too, because, you know, there`s been over this August period a real war in the hearts of minds of the Democratic members of the Senate and Democratic members of the Congress. And if you are actually in good faith trying to persuade them on the Iran deal, you are not bringing out Dick Cheney, Donald Trump and Ted Cruz. That to me signals almost a recognition that that phase of persuasion is over, this is now about essentially trashing the deal so you can mobilize your base. PIERCE: Sure. It`s creating the deal as an issue in the general election. HAYES: That`s right. PIERCE: Because regardless of who actually negotiated and who actually signed it, this is going to be the Democratic candidate`s deal for good or ill in the general election. HAYES: And I think they think they will get a lot of mileage out of this as a kind of betrayal, as America being weak. I mean, Trump is one of the things he lists off in his -- to the extent there`s an ideology of just winning, #winning, that`s what this is about. That we got -- especially that we got snookered. PIERCE: Right. His whole thing is when was the last time we won anything? Which that`s the closest thing he has to a stump speech right now. We don`t have enough victories anymore. He is going to claim this is a tremendous defeat. I don`t think he would know the premier of Iran, if the premier of Iran sat in his lap. I think he knows less about nuclear deterrents than he knows about nuclear anything. But it is going to be framed as the United States -- he`s going to bring echoes of the hostage crisis in 1979. They`re going to -- poor Jimmy Carter, he`s going to get trotted out for another flogging on the campaign trail. It`s going to be one of those. And the Democrats are going to have to get very, very sharp about selling this as a political issue in the campaign. HAYES: Yes. It`s interesting the selling of it will largely fall to Hillary Clinton or whoever is the nominee. I say Clinton because she was the secretary of state so it will be sort of particularly teed up for her. But whoever is the nominee, it is going to be their job to come out and defend this thing. The thing is for all of the inability of them to get enough votes in the Senate, the politics of it, the polling hasn`t looked great for the president or for Democrats. PIERCE: No. HAYES: It`s an easy thing to beat up on. PIERCE: Absolutely. You have to really get to the weeds to understand what a good deal it is. When Trump says the Iranians are going to hire their own inspectors and do their own inspecting that`s not exactly true. HAYES: Right. PIERCE: That`s a carefully negotiated point with not only Iran but the IAEA and that`s the way they do things. But, you know, by the time you are finished explain that he has moved on to Huma Abedin or something. HAYES: Right. All right. Charlie Pierce, thank you for joining us. PIERCE: Thanks, Chris. HAYES: Still ahead, how the Hillary Clinton campaign is signaling dominance to anyone who just might be thinking about stealing the race. I`ll explain, next. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Try to make sense of this, like something wasn`t classified. (END VIDEO CLIP) (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HAYES: The first primary vote for Democratic presidential nomination is 157 days away. Hillary Clinton is already a fifth of the way to victory according to her campaign. Allow me to explain. Senior Clinton campaign official told Bloomberg the former secretary of state has already secured vote commitments from 440 super delegates. That word, "super delegates", that may sound vaguely familiar because they were at the center of an epic battle between Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama back in 2008. We all know who came out on top in that long intense fight. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) BARACK OBAMA, THEN-PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The way we`re going to close the deal is by winning. And right now, we`re winning. REPORTER: In fact, Obama still leads in total votes and delegates. OBAMA: If we won the most delegates from the voters, it seems to me that it might be a good idea to make me the nominee. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: Of the roughly 2,246 delegates needed to win the Democratic nomination, there are 713 that are so-called super delegates. They are Democratic Party officials across the country who can vote whichever way they please at the convention. They are not tied to any of the votes. Clinton`s campaign said they have 440 officials so far. That is over half of the super delegates and 20 percent of the total amount needed to secure the nomination. If the campaign is correct, that`s huge, and perhaps the strongest sign yet they won`t be repeating the mistakes of 2008. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) CLINTON: This is really about how you put the numbers together to secure the nomination. As some of you might recall, in 2008, I got a lot of votes, but I didn`t get -- I didn`t get enough delegates. And so, I think it is understandable that my focus is going to be on delegates, as well as votes this time. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: The timing of Clinton`s delegate announcement appears to be a shot across the bow to anyone who might still want to enter the race. * CLINTON: ...enough delegates. And so I think it is understandable that my focus is going to be on delegates, as well as votes this time. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: The timing of Clinton`s delegate announcement appears to be a shot across the bow to anyone who might still want to enter the race, cough, Joe Biden, cough. But it doesn`t mean Clinton has the nomination in the bag and should a candidate really be able to have 20 percent of the votes needed before even a single primary vote has been cast? Joining me now, Lynn SWEET Washington bureau of the Chicago Sun-Times. And Lynn, today I fell down a rabbit hole reading coverage of the delegate fights of 2008 including some of my coverage when I was going to these endless meetings where they were going to war over this. And this did seem to me, two things. One sort of saying that Joe Biden as he is considering, we already have a lot of this sewed up, and two, we have learned from the last time. LYNN SWEET, CHICAGOSUN-TIMES: Well, both are true. And I have been having flashbacks today to all the briefings by then campaign manager David Plouffe who said super delegates are, you know, where the fight is at, and the delegate count. And I know some people have said, well, she is only doing the super delegates to get Joe Biden out of the race or to discourage him, well maybe that`s why this information came out today. But you may not know this, a lot of people may not know it but the Clinton campaign even hired the same lawyer who worked on the delegate and super delegate count that worked for the Obama campaign. Those of us who saw this Obama campaign unfold in `07 and `08 were just amazed that the Clinton wasn`t doing what Obama was doing, which was collecting super delegates. And if I can make one other point quickly, Chris, I know when you started this segment you said oh my god, it is hundreds of days until you even have a vote, but what they are doing now and what is so politically prudent is the super delegates are people who you can identify. They are out there to be had. Delegates, most of these states, won`t be elected for as long as a year, starting in March are the early primaries where you really start getting them. And getting commitments -- so there`s nothing else to do now but just focus on this pool of 700 people. It will be harder to get them later. HAYES: It`s a very good point. And one of the things we learned in 2008 about the way it is structured is ultimately it is about delegates. It`s not about votes. And that was one of the things that it came down to is that the Barack Obama campaign realized that sooner and strategized and engineered their campaign around that fact much more efficiently than the Clinton campaign did. SWEET: Absolutely. And let others get carried away with national polls. That`s why I -- with all respect to everybody who wants to focus on national polls it`s a waste of time when you are trying to figure out who is going to be the nominee. No, you feel good if you`re Donald Trump to harump as we have seen him do, but he`s ahead on these national polls. And it`s useful for figuring out who gets in a debate. But you have to get delegates, delegates are collected by states. States make their own rules for how you figure out who delegates are. That`s why Hillary has an institutional advantage is that she has the time to build state-by-state organizations to get the strongest Democrats around to be her delegates. HAYES: Lynn, I want to play you this O`Malley and Bernie Sanders responding to the fact that there is only four debates, both of them criticizing that at the meeting today. Take a listen. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) MARTIN O`MALLEY, FRM. GOVERNOR OF MARYLAND: Four debates. Four debates, four debates, and four debates only, we are told. Not asked before voters in our earliest states make this decision. This is totally unprecedented in our party`s history. This sort of rigged process has never been attempted before. Who`s decree is this exactly? Where did it come from? To what end? For what purpose? UNIDENITIFIED MALE: Governor O`Malley said he thought the debate process for the Democratic primary was rigged. That`s the word he used. I`m wondering if you agree with him or do you think there should be more debates? SEN. BERNIE SANDERS, (I) VERMONT: I do. And I have been quite public on that. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: Lynn, they got have a point it seems to me. SWEET: From the beginning of time, people, candidates who are underdogs always want more debates. HAYES: Yeah, that`s the way it always works. SWEET: And if I could play a little - if I could channel Donald Trump a little bit, these guys -- not Bernie Sanders but Martin O`MKalley who is barely registering, he didn`t even have the internal party strength to go in there and win this internal battle for more debates. Now he`s complaining. Please. You know, the way you get some place is to build a campaign, have people there. If your campaign depends on being in these debates, you know, you are in a tough spot. HAYES: Lynn Sweet, thanks for joining me. Still ahead, actor and director Harry Shearer will be here live from New Orleans. Do not go away. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TRUMP: The toughest and the meanest, the words dudes in Baltimore, you`ve seen it, they`re illegal immigrants. And I`ll tell you one thing, if I get in, they are going to be gone so fast out of this country. They`re going to be gone so fast. I mean, you take a look at what`s happening and you have illegal immigrants and gangs that you wouldn`t even believe. They`re going to be gone. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: If you listen to Donald Trump, or conservative talk radio or even the county sheriff we had on this program last night, you might think this country is absolutely overrun by immigrants, most of them from Mexico, bringing drugs and crimes along with them. And this anti-immigrant hysteria is not particularly well grounded and it also seems particularly ridiculous at a time when Europe is facing its biggest migrant and refugee crisis since World War II. Hundreds of thousands of people this year have fled war and poverty in the middle East and Africa, many seeking to escape the ongoing horror or civil war in Syria. Migrants and refugees are now filling up camps across Europe while the death toll continues to climb. Authorities today removing the bodies of 71 people from the back of a truck found abandoned on a highway in Austria. Syrian travel documents were found among the dead which included four children, the youngest, a 2-year-old girl. At least four people have been arrested believed to be members of a human smuggling ring. Across the Mediterranean, the bodies of as many as 150 people were brought ashore after a boat capsized off the coast of Libya At least 2,500 people have died at sea this year alone, making the desperate journey to Europe and that does not include the victims of the latest tragedy. This man and his daughter fleeing the war in Syria survived the journey and are being held at a detention center. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): they call it the route of death. we`re forced to take it, this man says. now we call it the grave of the mediterranean. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: Think about the situation you would be in if you undertook that journey with your child. German Chancellor Angela Merkel noting the situation is a bigger test for the European Union than the Greek financial melt down. But the response from European nations has been mixed. While countries like Sweden and Germany are taking migrants and refugees in, others are building them out. Hungary is constructing a Donald Trump style wall along its border with Serbia, a response that some believe will only aid the smugglers. As one migration agency official told the New York Times today, That kind of policy looks tough, looks proactive, it looks as if you are taking people`s complaints seriously that they are too many migrants. It doesn`t work. Which brings us to this country where just last summer we are watching thousands of young children and families and mothers with infants and toddlers crossing our southern border, peacefully turning themselves in, fleeing some other world`s horrifying violence seen in Central America in decades. And our political system, what did it do? It absolutely lost its mind. It makes me feel a deep unease to contemplate what our political system would do in the face of the kind of moral crisis Europe is facing right now, if hundreds of thousands of people fleeing unimaginable circumstances came to our borders looking for safety and security and compassion. Would the better angels of our nature rise to the occasion? (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HAYES: Pretty much every news organization is marking the tenth anniversary of Hurricane Katrina. Most of the focus is of course on New Orleans and the comeback of New Orleans is impressive. But it is also a source of lingering questions. Tracey Washington of the Louisiana Justice Institute, and actor and filmmaker Harry Shearer will join me ahead. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HAYES: Former President Bush was in New Orleans today for the tenth anniversary of Hurricane Katrina. We all remember, I think, some of the now iconic images of chaos, distress and misery from that disaster 10 years ago. And we also remember the lasting political fallout. A presidential administration that released this flyover pic two days after the levees broke seemed to encapsulate the disconnect and the administration`s inept response. Outrage over the government`s response to Katrina included Kanye West speaking at a nationally televised Katrina fund-raiser. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) KANYE WEST, RAPPER: With the way America is set up to help the poor, the black people, the less well off as slow as possible. I mean the Red Cross is doing everything they can. We already realize a lot of people that could help are at war right now fighting another way. And they have given them permission to go down and shoot us. George Bush doesn`t care about black people. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: Whether the country at large believed that particular statement of the president true or not it became, along with Katrina`s devastation in New Orleans, an enduring moment of racial consciousness. As written by Jamel Bouie in a great piece in Slate, "the events of the storm and its aftermath sparked a profound shift among black Americans toward racial pessimism that persists to today, even with Barack Obama in the White House. Black collective memory of Hurricane Katrina as much as anything else informs the present movement against police violence, Black Lives Matter." And one of the bit takeaways about the new New Orleans versus the New Orleans is that the new one is whiter than the old one -- many black residents never having made it back to the city -- and the city has been reborn but through the process of many of its residents being replaced. And not everyone is better off. As 538 notes, the median black household earned just more than $25,000 in 2013, $5,000 less than in 2000 after adjusting for inflation, a 20 percent decline in the median household income in the black population of New Orleans. It`s one the big questions that hangs over and haunts all the celebration about New Orleans is did it come at the expense of New Orleans black middle class? Joining me now, Tracie Washington, president and CEO Louisiana Justice Institute. Has the rebirth of New Orleans which is a word I`ve heard a lot over the last week in this coverage, has it come at the expense of black New Orleanians. TRACIE WASHINGTON, CEO, LOUSIANA JUSTICE INSTITUTE: Well, that`s a heavy question. When people ask if it has come at the expense of black people, I remind them that an equitable rebuild, which is what we were promised by President Bush standing in front of Jackson Square was that notwithstanding the fact, Chris, New Orleanians, black New Orleanians suffered prior to Hurricane Katrina and that was why it was so difficult for us to get out. He said we were going to have an equitable rebuild and you would come back better, strong and we have not. Has it been at the expense of African-Americans, I say yes. I say if the white median income now $60,000 for a family of four, when it was $49,000 prior to Hurricane Katrina, $25,000 now for a family of four for black folks when it was $23,000 prior to Hurricane Katrina, I say that`s not equity. That`s not equity, Chris. HAYES: Well, that is what is so interesting about the data that`s coming out of New Orleans in all of this reporting around the ten-year anniversary is that New Orleans is a smaller city than it was before Katrina, it`s a whiter city. We have some data to show that, but there is also a really remarkable disconnect between how affluent white New Orleans has become compared to black New Orleans. It really is a city in the aftermath of the hurricane seems even more a kind of tale of two cities than it was before the hurricane. WASHINGTON: That`s because this recovery, this recovery made folks who were not doing poorly -- they made them do very well. And can I knock the fact that our white citizens -- that we have more of them and they are doing very well? No, I don`t want to. We`re not going to hate, but we are going to say is that you haven`t done for me. Our black children are poor. When you have a city now where 50.5 percent of your African-American children live in poverty, more than prior to Hurricane Katrina, no one should come here and smile. HAYES: Tracie, is that really true? The percentage of black children living in poverty in New Orleans is higher than before Katrina? WASHINGTON: Before Katrina, 38 percent of black children lived in poverty. Ten years later, 39 percent. How do we have this prosperity? And, you know, people say well it is about the same. Why should it be about the same? The president promised us better. HAYES: Well, -- and the other thing I have been struck by is you have this tremendous New Orleans diaspora that was created in which people left, they didn`t come back. And a lot of those folks in that great 538 piece, a lot of that was sort of black working middle class New Orleanians who were home owners who were never able, for whatever reason -- whether it was choice or the failure of the rebuilding plan to come back and move back into the city. WASHINGTON: That`s right. Well, you know, because of history, right? Our communities were concentrated in the gentile area, the Seventh Ward, and in the Ninth Ward. And that`s both -- those are the places where we got the most water. Our professionals were concentrated in city government, and school system. Who was fired? 7,000 teachers. Most of our city workers. And so that professional class, they were able to get jobs. Our teachers were welcomed all over the country. We had some of the best teachers in the world. They couldn`t get jobs here. And so we have 100,000 of my brothers and sisters who were not able to make it back. And while, yes, we welcome, we welcome the young white folk, all the white folk who have gotten here. What I tell them is, when you put shiitake mushrooms in something and you want to call it gumbo, I`m not feeling it. HAYES: Tracie Washington, thank you very much. Still ahead, Harry Shearer joins me to talk about Hurricane Katrina and about the entity arguably most responsible for the disaster who has never really had to answer for itself. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENITIFIED MALE: At 7:45 in the morning, just as the surge was peaking in this canal, two massive breaches occurred in the flood wall behind me sending an 18 foot high wall of water into the lower Ninth Ward, totally destroying the first five rows of homes and even some homes nine blocks back were floated off their foundations. It`s here that we have the greatest number of people killed due to drowning during Katrina. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: All right, joining me now actor Harry Shearer, also the star and director of that documentary you just saw on Hurricane Katrina, "The Big Uneasy." Harry, I -- that film is a very important film to me. I`ve talked to you about this issue before, done some reporting on it. Ten years later, what is the biggest misconception people have about what happened in Katrina and what happened, particularly with those levees that are supposed to protect the city? HARRY SHEARER, ACTOR; The biggest misconception is that a Hurricane Katrina hit New Orleans, it hit the Mississippi Gulf Coast, but it passed by New Orleans. What happened in New Orleans was the catastrophic failure in more than 50 locations of the so-called hurricane protection system which was mandated by congress to protect us against the maximum probable hurricane and which system failed under conditions markedly less severe than those that it was supposed to withstand. HAYES: The system was built and designed by the Army Corps of Engineers. It`s a system built to withstand a certain level of a storm. This storm hits at a lower level. It sends a storm surge up in. And the devastation we see, to this day, I think people still don`t get this, all of that water you saw is not from the hurricane, it is from the levee ruptures, right? SHEARER: Yeah. I mean, the co-author of one of the two university based investigations into the disaster, Dr. Ray (inaudible) at UC Berkeley said if the system had performed as it was supposed to have, the most Katrina would have inflicted on New Orleans would have been -- and this is a quote, wet ankles. HAYES: Right. Because there is some places where you have topping -- can we show the map of the 17th Street Canal, the Orleans Avenue canal and the London Avenue Canal, those are three of the canals that have pumps in them, some of which also failed and Lake Ponchartrain drained into it. What happened physically? Did the levees -- were they not strong enough. Were they poorly designed? Did someone cut corners? Why did the thing not work? SHEARER: There`s been a lot of debate about this. As a matter of fact, the authors of the Berkeley report just recently reported in an update they had been, the Corps of Engineers had disassembled to them about whose decision it was to create this particular system with those flood walls lining the canals. They were trying to blame the local Orleans levee board, but it turns out according to internal emails that the corps made the decision because this was a cheaper way of doing things. A cheaper option. There were a lot of vectors of failure. The flood walls at the 17th Avenue canal were supposed to have been under girded by steel driven into the ground. The corps said it should only be driven 17 feet in the ground. The contractor said that`s not deep enough, you are just hitting muck, not solid ground. Nowaday they are digging and undergirding 64 feet down. HAYES: So, it was 17 before, it`s now 64 feet. SHEARER: Yeah. In the new sections. I should point out a lot of sections of that wall have never been repaired because the corps`s position is we`re not worrying about the internal problems in New Orleans now, we are providing periphery protection so those walls will never be challenged. That is a dubious proposition. HAYES: OK. So, the corpse got a huge amount of money after this happened. SHEARER: $14 billion. HAYES: $14 billion. I believe that that might be actually on the Mr. Go (ph) big hurricane gate that they`ve built that we just showed there for a second. SHEARER: That gate -- that big wall itself was $1 billion. HAYES: That big wall, right. So there`s a billion dollar wall they built. There is $14 billion of new infrastructure built around this sort of theory of a kind of perimeter around. Are you confident, having spent a lot of time immersed in this, are you confident that that`s going to work, that the mistakes haven`t been repeated? SHEARER: Two points, one the system was built to a lower standard, not to protect against the maximum probable hurricane as the previous failed system was supposed to have been, but to enable us to qualify for flood insurance, that was a decision by the Bush administration and the local and state governments accepted it because they thought without flood insurance nobody would reinvest in the city. Two, Dr. Paul Camp (ph) who is on the local levee authority, a noted oceanographer, has said a week ago at a meeting I attended when asked, are we safer he said I think the citizens of New Orleans should be constantly skeptical about this system. HAYES: So, that is where we stand right now. I mean, last thing, people say the problem was there was not enough money originally appropriated to the corps. Is that true? SHEARER: Listen, the corps always complains that it doesn`t have enough money. And it wasn`t a lack of money that made them go in to court to challenge the contractor who said we have to dig these piles of steel deeper, it was something else going on there. HAYES: All right, Harry Shearer, thank you very much. I should note we invited a representative from the Army Corps of Engineers to appear tonight, they declined. That is All In for this evening. The Rachel Maddow Shows right now. THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED. END