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All In with Chris Hayes, Transcript 08/26/15

Guests: Mike Mather, Valerie Jarrett, Charlie Pierce, Michael Waldman,Colin Goddard, Melissa Jeltsen, Josh Barro, Maria Hinojosa, Orville Schell

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST (voice-over): Tonight on ALL IN -- UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They`re going to be so miss asked not easily replaced. HAYES: Two journalists murdered on live television by an ex-employee of the station. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He quickly became -- gathered a reputation as someone who was difficult to work with. HAYES: Tonight, condemnation for the atrocity and calls to action. HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We have got to do something about gun violence in America. HAYES: Then, here`s Scott Walker on China now. GOV. SCOTT WALKER (R-WI), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We should be taking them to the woodshed. HAYES: And here`s Scott Walker on Chinese state TV in 2012. WALKER: Almost $1.4 billion of exports from Wisconsin to China. That`s a win/win. HAYES: Plus, the latest on Donald Trump versus Jorge Ramos. DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: He is obviously a very emotional person. HAYES: And the latest on a Trump fan versus Jorge Ramos. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get out of my country. HAYES: ALL IN starts right now. (END VIDEOTAPE) HAYES: Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes. A truly horrifying scene in Franklin County, Virginia, today, where a former employee of a local TV station WDBJ 7 murdered two of his former colleagues live on television at 6:45 a.m. The gunman later took his own life. The victims were reporter Alison Parker, 24 years old, and cameraman Adam Ward, 27 years old. They were shot and killed during a live broadcast as Alison Parker was interviewing Vicki Gardner, an executive director of the Smith Mountain Lake regional Chamber of Commerce. Ms. Gardner was also shot. She is now undergoing surgery and is listed in the stable condition. Both victims, the reporter and cameraman were in relationships with other members of the station`s staff. Alison Parker was dating an anchor at WDBJ, Chris Hurst, who tweeted in the wake of her murder, they were in love and that he was numb. Adam Ward`s fiancee, Melissa Ott, a producer for the station`s morning program, was in the station`s control room when the shooting occurred live on that station`s air. Colleagues of the victims still broadcasting after the incident were joined by the station`s general manager to report the shooting and memorialize their friends. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) WDBJ 7 ANCHOR: We are following breaking news this morning out of Franklin County, news that has affected our WDBJ 7 family very deeply. Our WDBJ 7 morning crew was live this morning at Smith Mountain Lake when shots were fired around 6:45. And our general manager and WDBJ 7 vice president Jeff Marks is here to tell us more about what happened. JEFF MARKS, WDBJ 7 VICE PRESIDENT: Kim, it is my very, very sad duty to report that we have determined, through the help of the police and our employees, that Alison and Adam died this morning shortly after 6:45 when the shots rang out. I cannot tell you how much they were loved, Alison and Adam, by the WDBJ 7 team. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: The killer has been identified as a former reporter of the WDBJ, Vester Lee Flanagan, who`s on air name was Bryce Williams. He had been dismissed two years prior. Soon after this morning`s shootings, Flanagan started tweeting about his act, uploading his own video of the shooting. Flanagan was tracked down in part through the police`s use of a license plate reader and Virginia state police attempted to pull him over on Interstate 66 in northern Virginia. The police closing in, Flanagan later crashed. Officials indicating he may have shot himself in the head while driving and later died. Prior to that, approximately two hours after the shooting, ABC News received a 23-page fax from a man claiming to be Flanagan, detailing his grievances, praising other mass shootings, such as Columbine, Virginia Tech. Also claiming the Charleston, South Carolina, church shooting was a tipping point motivating his actions today. In that 23-page document which ABC News describes as a suicide note, Flanagan also claims he made a deposit of the gun two days after the Charleston church shooting. Joining me now, investigative reporter for WTKR in Norfolk, Virginia, Mike Mather, who is in Linden, Virginia, tonight. Mike, I`ve got to imagine this is just absolutely devastating. For everyone in that community, reporters particularly, journalists, how are people processing this this evening? MIKE MATHER, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER, WTKR: Yes, you`re absolutely right. It is absolutely a shock to anybody who does this job. In the Roanoke Valley area, WDBJ is a very solid station there. In fact, the sheriff himself said he was watching the morning newscast, knew the reporter from the previous interview and saw the shooting as so many did. There are prayer vigils tonight in the Smith Mountain Lake where the shooting happened. And all day long, at the WDBJ studios, people have been bringing flowers, they`ve been holding prayer circles themselves. Area businesses were bringing in food for the employees there. And the employees were struggling through their day after losing these two colleagues. So, it is up and down this area of Virginia, a very difficult day. Not only in the profession but all the people who watch television and get to know these reporters. HAYES: Yes, my sense is that there were thousands of people in that area who saw this happen live on their TV sets. It must have been massively traumatic for everyone watching -- obviously, not as traumatic for the families and loved ones of those victims. But I can`t imagine trying to watch that real-time as you were watching this happened. MATHER: Yes. And it was something so innocuous. It was the bread and butter of a morning news show. HAYES: Right. MATHER: A reporter with a lot of energy and her photographer doing a story with a Chamber of Commerce executive director about tourism, about a good story in their area. Certainly, you would never expect this on any story. But something like that, Smith Mountain Lake live on television for a 24-year-old reporter, and a 27-year-old photographer, just getting their lives and their careers started, to have this happen live was absolutely devastating. And, of course, the station right away was struggling to find out what happened themselves and it was just only afterwards the general manager, as you just heard, had to come on to the station and deliver the awful news. HAYES: Mike Mather, thank you very much for joining us tonight. Let me say one thing -- I`m a reporter, obviously. I`ve been a reporter my entire adult life, so this hits close to home. But I`ve -- through this work I have gotten to work with a lot of camera people and crews, and it`s just important to recognize, I think today in this moment, that they are journalists as much as any of us are. They do incredible work. They take incredible risks in incredibly dangerous situations all the time. This wasn`t supposed to be a dangerous situation. But keep in mind, every time you see an image on a television screen from a dangerous place, there is a person holding that camera who is risking their life without the fame and glory that attached to those people in front of the camera. Soon after today`s shooting, Virginia Governor Terry McAuliffe said in a radio interview there is too gun violence in America. Presidential candidate Hillary Clinton campaigning today in Iowa, expressed her condolences to the victims and their families and spoken strong terms about the apparent epidemic of gun violence in this country. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) CLINTON: Intentional, unintentional, murder, suicide, it happens every day. And there is so much evidence that if guns were not so readily available, if we had universal background checks, if we could just put some time out between the person who is upset because he got fired or the domestic abuse or whatever other motivation may be working on someone who does this, that maybe we could prevent this kind of carnage. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: Earlier today, I spoke with President Obama senior adviser Valerie Jarrett and asked her what it was like in the White House on a day like today. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) VALERIE JARRETT, SENIOR ADVISOR TO PRESIDENT OBAMA: It was just heartbreaking, Chris. Of course, our hearts go out to the family and friends of the anchor, the cameraman, and we`re just faced with another tragedy. And we are once again asking ourselves, what more can we do? We know that the president took 23 different executive actions to try to make it safer for Americans. We know from our effort after Sandy Hook, that 90 percent of the Americans believe we need sensible gun legislation and we are continuing to call on Congress to act. And as the president said earlier, we really need a grassroots effort around our country that says, look, we may not able to save every life. But if we save just one life, isn`t it worth it? And that we can both respect the Second Amendment at the same time we can make sure the guns don`t get into the wrong hands. HAYES: There`s two separate interviews in which I`ve heard the president interviewed in which he has said that his chief time in his time in office has been the inability to pass any kind of gun legislation, to have any kind of policy response to the kind of mass shootings we`ve seen. I should be clear, today does not technically count as a mass shooting in terms of FBI statistics. How present is that frustration in the president in that White House? JARRETT: It`s ever present. He mentions with great frequency that his worst day in office was the day that Sandy Hook happened. And going up there just a couple of days later and meeting with the families of the victims and looking at the photographs of those young children, it is just gut wrenching. And so, yes, it`s something that weighs on him heavily. He shares it very openly when his staff and he`s obviously talked about it quite publicly. And he`s convinced that when you have 90 percent of the American people who want to do something, there is really no excuse for Congress not acting. And so, the voices of the American people have to be heard in this dialogue. And today may not have been a mass shooting. But I can tell you to the families of the victims, it felt like a mass shooting. And so, every time we lose a life and it happens too often in our country, it should be another wake-up call. When do we say enough is enough? And for the family and the friends and the colleagues, and you in the media, you put your lives on the line often. And you should be able to do your job without this threat that`s out there. Everyone should be able to live in our country. And, you know, the fact of the matter is, the United States is unique. Why is it in our country that we have so many of these incidents compared to the rest of the world, the developed world for sure? And so, if there are steps that we can take as a country, why aren`t we taking them? (END VIDEOTAPE) HAYES: Part of my interview with President Obama`s senior adviser Valerie Jarrett. Joining me now, "Esquire" writer-at-large, Charlie Pierce, and Michael Walden, president of Brennan Center for Justice, author of a fantastic book, I recommend them to everyone. It`s called "The Second Amendment: A Biography". It is now out in paperback. You know, Charlie, I don`t want to luxuriate in the details of this because that`s precisely what the killer wanted. And I felt today, watching the video unfortunately that he had posted on Twitter, like that we had crossed some horrible Rubicon. There is some moment in which twin impulses of American life towards sort of attention and spectacle and towards horrible gun violence had sort of merge and, you know, it felt like some kind of moment of no going back. What was your reaction? CHARLIE PIERCE, WRITER-AT-LARGE, ESQUIRE: Yes. Each of these events is barbaric in its own way. In Newtown, it was, you know, very young children being mowed down. In Charleston, it was people at prayer. In this one, as you pointed out, there was video from the station that was being watched by the loved ones of the two people who are killed. There`s a video that was posted by the killer. I mean, all this proves to me is that 1976 when they made the movie "Network", Paddy Chayefsky was both prescient and sadly understated. HAYES: Yes. Michael, your book spends a lot of time looking at the Second Amendment and the conditions -- the historical social political conditions under which it was written. What would -- try to think about what the Founders would have made of today? MICHAEL WALDMAN, PRESIDENT, BRENNAN CENTER FOR JUSTICE: Well, they really, in writing the Second Amendment, so much of it was in Virginia, where James Madison lived. What they were looking to do above all else was to protect those state militias which were made of citizen soldiers who were required to own a military weapon and there was their bulwark against tyranny. They could not have imagined that people would in a misguided way take what they did centuries later and say that somehow it protects this kind of demented and tragic activity. You know, throughout the country`s history, the Second Amendment and the way we understand guns, which is unique, we`ve always had a lot of guns but we`ve had gun laws and a sense of responsibility, too. It`s only a fairly recent thing that somehow having strong gun laws trampled on a sacred inviolable, individual right. That`s not really the full history of the country. HAYES: People on the other side of this say, you know, I`ve heard them respond about not one more life, right? And they say, look, that`s a crazy thing to say. You would not say it in any other context, right? We could say, if we brought the speed limit down to 30 miles an hour, we would probably save lives, but we make the tradeoff. And this fundamentally, they will say, is a tradeoff of liberty. WALDMAN: Well, you know, it`s interesting. As you know, it was only in 2008, less than ten years ago, that the Supreme Court ruled that this Second Amendment protected an individual right to gun ownership. That was the first time that that had happened. But even in that opinion, Justice Scalia who we know is such a rock ribbed interventionist conservative, he said, yes, it is right but there can be limitations on that right, as there are with any other right. HAYES: Right. WALDMAN: You know, as it`s known, you can`t shout falsely "fire" in a crowded theater, and there are other kinds of limitations on rights for public safety. And so, background checks, keeping guns out of the hands of those who shouldn`t have them really doesn`t violate Scalia`s version of the Second Amendment and it really shouldn`t violate anybody else`s. HAYES: Charlie, you`ve covered American politics for a long time. Do you think about America as a violent country? PIERCE: I think America`s history is shot through with violence. And I think there is something dread -- something has come dreadfully loose in the country right now and I think you`ll be dealing with a piece of it later in the show. An awful lot of stuff that was not permissible, either in rhetoric or action, has become permissible. A lot of stuff that was in the kind of foul tributaries of American life has made it into the mainstream. And I don`t know, given the nature of the modern media, whether or not we can turn off that tap. And I`ll tell you the honest to God truth. It is worrisome to be out on the campaign trail now. It`s not terrifying. It`s nothing like following a rifle platoon into the Hindu Cush or something. But there`s something unsettling and something that`s come loose in the body politic and frankly, I`m worried about it. HAYES: It is disturbing. I think we have to mention the fact this shooter, Charlie, to your point explicitly says, he praises other mass shootings. It`s part of the reason I think that we don`t show the footage because we have some data to suggest copycats are real thing. He suggests other shootings. He praises them. He talked about Dylan Roof essentially inviting a race war and that he is giving him that when Charlie talks about something being shaken loose in the body politic -- when you think about the Second Amendment, right, in the context of them trying to create a kind of governable order, it is hard for me to imagine that they would have looked out into this country that is so many guns free floating, the founders that is, and thought that was a sustainable situation. WALDMAN: Look, they were not in writing the Second Amendment, looking to create a how-to manual for freelance insurrectionist or workplace revenge killers. This was all about how to create their military system, which was partly state militias and partly what they were very worried about, which was a permanent United States army. And throughout the country`s history, we`ve become kind of more individualistic. We think of these things as being more individual rights. But even in the Wild West, there were strong gun laws. Now, in this particular case, we don`t know. From what we`ve learned in the media about this individual, the way he was dismissed and the fear of him that his employers had, this sounds like someone who should not have had a gun. HAYES: Although, Charlie, and this is something that again, the sort of more -- I think the more honest and rational people who advocate against gun safety regulation will say is, look, you know, if this guy didn`t fail a mental health check, there`s all sorts of ways that whatever individual gun law you propose wouldn`t have been the one to stop this particular horrifying atrocity. What do you say when you`re confronted with that? PIERCE: Do you know of any other law that is written specifically because it will stop everything it`s trying to stop? That to me -- that argument to me, it has come loose from earth and it is floating into the ionosphere right now. We write laws so as to control in the main the worst impulses of ourselves as a people. If they don`t control them all the time, we don`t assume they don`t work. HAYES: Right. WALDMAN: There is more and more data showing that the states that have stronger laws have lower gun homicide and gun death rates. And that`s counter to what the NRC says but it`s really true. HAYES: And I would like to talk a little bit what the sort of comparative situation looks like on this awful day, and lot of people in mourning over this tragic murder. Charlie Pierce, Michael Waldman, thank you both. Still ahead, the horrific shooting this morning in Virginia, the hundreds of multiple shootings that happened around the country. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) FEMALE TV ANCHOR: We`re all in a state of shock. You can hear people behind us in the newsroom crying. It is just really hard. MALE TV ANCHOR: We`re holding back too. FEMALE TV ANCHOR: It is really hard to comprehend. We cover these all the time but it`s really tough. Tough covering it when you don`t know the people. When it is two of your own, and so young and just -- we have no idea what happened. (END VIDEO CLIP) (COMMERCIAL BREAK) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) JEB BUSH (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It`s a tragedy. I don`t have enough details to determine what the reason for all this was. Clearly a tragedy when you have, in a free society, having violence take place. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: Jeb Bush responding to the shooting in Roanoke amid the fans. If the U.S. is a free society, it is also a heavily armed society with the highest per capita ownership in the world. Up next, why shootings represent the dark side of American exceptionalism. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HAYES: Under the loosest definition of a mass shooting, what happened today in Virginia brings the total numbers of such incidents in this country to 246 for this year alone. According to the crowdsourced mass shooting tracker, that`s a rate of more than one per day. Now, this does not happen anywhere else in the world. It is a uniquely American phenomenon. According to a new study out this week, from the American sociological association, while the U.S. has just 5 percent of the world`s population, it has had 31 percent of the mass shootings over the last century, five time as many as the runner up, the Philippines. And no coincidence, we`re also number one in the world for civilian gun ownership, according to the study`s author, citing a 2007 survey which found an average of 88.8 firearms for 100 people in the U.S. That has probably gone up. Compare that to the next highest rate, in Yemen, 54.8 per hundred people. And while it feels like the recent cycle of shootings has been relentless, Charleston, Lafayette, now, Franklin County, Virginia, most mass killings barely even make the local news. According to new "Huffington Post" analysis of mass shooting data, most of them are neither ideological nor random. They happen in people`s homes and they are nothing if not personal. I`m joined now by the author of that piece, "Huffington Post" senior editor Melissa Jeltsen, and Colin Goddard, survivor of the Virginia Tech shooting, who`s now a senior policy advocate for Everytown for Gun Safety. And, Colin, let me start with you because you survived that horrible day at Virginia Tech. Hearing that this shooter really was trying to make a spectacle of himself, and is citing other mass shootings, including the one that you survived. What is -- what is your reaction to that? COLIN GODDARD, EVERYTOWN FOR GUN SAFETY: It`s incredibly disturbing to hear that. I don`t know what else to say. You know, when I woke up this morning and I saw the news break on television -- you know, the fact this happened on live television, you know, it showed America a small glimpse of what a shooting scenario is actually like. You hear the gunshots. You hear the screams. You can feel in a small way the horror that happens when these situations occur. And the fact this happens to 88 of us on a daily basis means that, you know, this is a serious problem that we have to address. And so, to watch another one unfold, to hear our elected officials again give platitudes, their thoughts and prayers, and have the conversation end there again is infuriating and something must change and have to be done to avoid the same scenario from occurring again in another few weeks. HAYES: Melissa, you wrote this great article. It caught my attention before today. You basically, we`re missing -- the headline says we`re missing the big picture on multiple shootings, mass shootings. And there is some quibbling about the statistically definition of "mass." MELISSA JELTSEN, THE HUFFINGTON POST: Right. HAYES: What is the big picture we`re missing? JELTSEN: Well, for the most part, the mass shootings that we hear about in this country happening in public. So just this summer, we`ve had the shooting in Charleston, the Lafayette shooting at a movie theater and it makes sense that we pay attention to these because they feel really scary. HAYES: Or one on live television which for that reason is horrifying. JELTSEN: Yes, it feels frightening and it feels indiscriminate and people get really scary. So, it makes sense we pay attention. But the reality is that most mass shootings take place in the home. And the victims are not random. They`re usually family members. The gunmen are killing their wives, their ex-wives, their children. HAYES: Yes. This data shows this is mostly happening, mostly overwhelmingly men. Overwhelmingly men who are coming after intimate partners of some kind and other people are caught in the fire. JELTESEN: So, we looked through five years of mass shooting date and we found that 70 percent take place in the home, which is crazy considering we don`t hear about these shootings. We only hear about the ones that happen in public. And then 57 percent of those shootings involved an intimate partner or a family member, which means they went after a wife, an ex-wife, a girlfriend, children. And what`s particularly interesting if you dig into the data a little bit more, if you just look at those shootings, which are intimate partner and family violence, 81 percent of the victims are women and children. So, they`re paying the price. HAYES: Colin, there`s -- I was looking today through the comparative data of 36 nations of the OECD, which is sort of developed democracies, the U.S. I believe is the third highest per capita homicide rate. But a bunch of other crimes, burglaries, for instance, were just right at the median. There is very strong evidence the one thing that separates us is just the availability of, say, a Glock handgun like the shooter in this case was able to get his hands on. GODDARD: You`re absolutely right. America does not have some sort of monopoly on disgruntled employees or people suffering from mental illness. Yet, we have astronomically higher gun homicide and suicide rates compared to other modern industrialized countries. And a significant part of that is the easy accessibility that we allow firearms in America. We don`t even do background checks on all gun sales in this country. I think people need to understand that background checks is not norm in America. It needs to be. And also, we have the culture that says using a gun this way is an acceptable way to resolve conflict or solve your problem, right? There is something that has to change in this country and disconnect has to close between us and our elected officials. HAYES: Let me push back in that. I mean, I don`t think we have a culture that in which anyone would say that what happened today is an OK way to solve a problem, right? GODDARD: Not in that regard. But it`s done so -- it`s so commonplace that it`s emulated by people -- HAYES: Right. GOODARD: -- just as it`s done today. And so, right, it`s not no one thinks that this is a proper way to do it, but the same time, you know, the media and the culture we talk -- you know, this is propagated and talked about and elevated to this extent, such that people think that this is a way out, this is how they have to do it HAYES: You also get, I think part of the point of your piece. And I think this is a really important thing to sort of stress here, you get a mismatch in terms of what people`s fears are and what`s actually happening, right? JELTSEN: Right. HAYES: So people, we`re talking about now, we`re talking about searching in movie theaters, right? Because we`ve had a number of these, and they`re just terrifying. The thought that that could happen, really, it`s boyfriends and husbands who are abusers, killing women and children. That`s the real threat here. JELTSEN: And what we know about that is, we`ve done a lot of research around domestic homicides, and there are so many warning signs that occur before homicides take place. So, we know what the warning signs are. If an abuser has access to a gun, eight times more likely the woman will be killed. When she is leaving an abusive partner, she`s more likely. If she`s been strangled, that`s another predictor -- HAYES: Wow. JELTSEN: -- future (INAUDIBLE). So, some police departments around the country are now screening women to work out who are at the most risk of being killed so they can, you know, target and have some intervention. But we know the risk factors. If we paid more attention to these domestic violence situations in the homes, it could potentially stop some mass shootings. HAYES: Melissa Jeltsen and Colin Goddard -- Melissa, great reporting. It`s a really good piece. Thank you both. We`ll be right back. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HAYES: It was an intense scene at Donald Trump`s news conference last night with Univision anchor Jorge Ramos being thrown out after trying to press Trump on his immigration policy, and Trump immediately getting asked why by reporters. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TRUMP: He just stands up and starts screaming. So you know, maybe he is at fault also. And this guy stags up and starts screaming. He is obviously a very emotional person. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: Coming up, the fallout including what went down in the hallway where an apparent Trump supporter confronted Ramos and what he said, that`s ahead. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HAYES: Donald Trump loves to metaphorically beat up on people and on things. And some of his favorites -- Mexico and Mexican immigrants, and of course there`s also China. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TRUMP: What China has done to the United States is the greatest single theft in the history of the world. They took our jobs, they took our money, they took our base, they took our manufacturing. China is killing us. China has taken so much of our wealth. They`ve taken our jobs, they`ve taken our businesses, they`ve taken our manufacturing, they take our jobs, they take everything. And we owe them money. We owe them 1.4 trillion. It`s like a magic act. I call it the magic act in reverse. Now who is tougher on the Chinese than me? I love them. I have respect for them. I just hate what they do to our (inaudible). But who is tougher than me? (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: Other GOP candidates are now working to see who can outbid Trump at the anti-China animus auction with Scott Walker doing his best to get out ahead saying this week the president should, quote, show some backbone and cancel the Chinese state visit. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SCOTT WALKER, GOVERNOR OF WISCONSIN: Why would we be giving one of our highest things our president can do, and that is a state dinner for Xi Jinping, the head of China at a time when these problems are pending out there? We should say those should only -- those honors should only be bestowed upon leaders and countries that are allies and supporters of the United States, not just for China which is a strategic competitor. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: As Betsy Woodruff astutely points out at The Daily Beast, just a few short years ago, Walker was singing a very different tune appearing in 2012 Chinese state TV wearing a U.S./China lapel pin, one of those little friendship pins, you can see it right there, calling the trade status quo, quote, good and fair. Next year he traveled to China itself to meet the president as part of a trade mission, even riding a Harley-Davidson at the opening of a dealership as part of the seven-day, four city trip. So, what could possibly have changed, caused a change in heart? Joining me now, Orville Schell, who has reported on China since the 70s, currently director of the Center on U.S. China relations at Asia- Society. There is a lot of this I feel like from politicians. They understand that a certain amount of China bashing on the stump is popular, both Democrat and Republican side of the aisle, but also when they are governors they want to go over there for -- make sure that their meat gets exported there and all this stuff. I mean, this is pretty common right? ORVILLE SCHELL, JOURNALIST: Yes. And I think we`ve seen in every election the tendency during the run up to the election, people to mouth off a bit, take extreme positions. And IK think now in this sort of present situation where we have so many Republicans who are having a terribly difficult time differentiating themselves, there is even a more exaggerated tendency to say extreme things. And China is a good pin cushion. And I have to say, of course, China has done a number of provocative things that make it very easy for Americans to wonder what the hell are we doing with -- you know, being friends. HAYES: Yeah, I think that the relationship is so complicated and so hard for anyone to understand, and sort of the average voter to understand. One of the things I think that`s interesting in Trump`s rhetoric is this idea that their leaders are so brilliant. And you see this all the time: Tom Friedman columns. It`s this certain kind of idea that like the Chinese rulers have it sort of figured out. What do you think about that? SCHELL: Well, I think until four or five weeks ago, there was a bit of that sense of their invincibility, of their omnipotence, that somehow they had a better calibrated system to get ahead in the world than we did. We were in decline. Washington is gridlocked et cetera, et cetera. Well, then in the last month or so, we`ve seen housing bubble, we`ve seen sunken ship in the Yangtze River, we`ve seen a stock market crash, a chemical warehouse explosion, a lot of things, which have put some puncture holes in that Chinese mythology. HAYES: You know, I have only been to China once. I was there for about a week-and-a-half and it was with some other journalists. And we were interviewing Chinese leaders. And the thing that was must striking to me in these interviews, time after time, was it really -- I went over there thinking like, they`ve really got it. They`re in control. They have got it figured out. And it seemed to me more talking to them, like they`re terrified that they could lose their grip at any moment. There is this sense that they`re kind of barely holding it together. And you see these moments like in Tianjin where the explosion happened where you start to see some kind of popular revolt. And it is unclear just how stable the whole thing is. SCHELL: Well, I think the Chinese Communist Party has a very evolved notion of theater and ritual. So from the outside, it looks one way. But if you can draw back the curtain, which is not easy to do, because it is not a very transparent society, and you look behind, you do see that they have many, many problems. And they`re aware of the problems that they have. And they`re deep, because this is a society in the most tectonic kind of change and self-reinvention. So there are many contradictions at work and I think it makes them feel very uneasy. HAYES: On the stump in Iowa, it`s particularly striking to me, Donald Trump was going after China. You`ve seen that from other people. I mean, I was basically, I was entire meat exports are going to China right now. I mean, if there is one group of people that should be psyched about China`s growth, it is basically America`s farmers, if I`m not mistaken. SCHELL: Well, any of these people who were governors or senators are going to have a specific state interest. And very often, that is in trade. So, you will see this sort of cognitive dissonance between them acting as governors and they`re acting now as candidates. But you know, if you`re going to represent the United States, then you do have to deal with a whole other host of problems and China is an increasingly difficult country for the United States to deal with. And I think also, you know, there is a failure to recognize at this stage in the presidential election, that we have no choice but to deal with China. HAYES: That is always sort of the issue underlying all this. Orville Schell, thanks for joining us. Up next, what happened after journalist Jorge Ramos was thrown out of Donald Trump`s news conference last night. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You were very rude. It is not about you. Get out of my country. Get out. JORGE RAMOS, UNIVISION: I am a U.S. citizen too. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, whatever. No. Univision? No. It is not about you. RAMOS: It`s not about you, it is about the United States. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HAYES: This morning top tennis player in the world took on the role: goodwill ambassador for UNICEF. In taking the appointment today, Novak Djokovic spoke of the importance of helping children across the world in the earliest stages of their development, something his foundation has been working on for years. I got a chance to talk with the tennis champion about his Philanthropy, about his foundation, his career, and whether his own young son will be following in his footprints. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) NOVAK DJOKOVIC, TENNIS WORLD NUMBER ONE: I`ve been getting the question on when my -- there`s to question whether my son will play tennis, it is a question of when he will start. So I will definitely not make my son play tennis. If you ask me now, I don`t know if I would like him to go through same thing. HAYES: Do you mean that? DJOKOVIC: ...as I did. Yeah, do I mean that. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: We`ll have my complete interview with Novak Djokovic, a phenomenal athlete. You don`t want to miss it. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TRUMP: Excuse me. Sit down. You weren`t called. Sit down. Go ahead. No, you don`t. You haven`t been called. RAMOS: I have the right to ask a question. TRUMP: Go back to Univision. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: Last night, Univision reporter Jorge Ramos was thrown out of a Donald Trump news conference after interrupting to press Trump over his call to deport everyone of the roughly 11 million undocumented immigrants in the U.S. After he was ejected, Ramos was confronted by an apparently Trump supporter in the hallway. Listen closely. (END VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENITIFED MALE: You were very rude. It is not about you. Get out of my country. Get out. RAMOS: This is my -- I am a U.S. citizen too. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, whatever. No, Univision. No. It`s not about you. RAMOS: It`s not about you. It is about the United States. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: Get out of my country. The Trump campaign told the International Business Times the man confronted Ramos is not affiliated with the campaign. Trump staffer eventually invited Ramos back into the news conference on the condition he wait to be called on to ask a question. The two men then engaged in a intense exchange over Trump`s immigration policy, which included, Ramos noting, that 75 percent of Latinos, contrary to what Trump says about himself, 75 percent of Latinos have a negative view of Trump. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TRUMP: Do you know how many Latinos work for me? Do you know how many Hispanics are working for me? OK. They love me. They love me. Do you know how many Hispanics work for me? Thousands. Do you know how many have worked for me over the years? Tens of thousands. Here`s what happens. Once I win, you`re going to see things happen. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: On the NBC`s Today Show this morning, Trump said that Ramos who has been called the Spanish language Walter Cronkite behaved unprofessionally. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TRUMP: He was totally out of line last night. I was being asked a question from another report. I would have gotten to him very quickly. And he stood up and started ranting and raving like a madman. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: For his part, Ramos is not claiming to be objective. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) RAMOS: Look, this is not politics for us, this is personal. When he is talking about immigrants, he is talking about me. The things that he considers just blunt talk, it is clearly offensive. And it is having an immediate political impact. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: For all the ugliness that has come with it, Trump`s presence in the GOP race, has been enormously clarifying when it comes to the actual real world stakes in the immigration debate. Last night on Fox News, Ted Cruz was asked a question at the very core of GOP immigration rhetoric, whether he would deport the American citizen children of undocumented immigrants. Think about this, he`s being asked would he deport American citizens just like Trump. And Cruz`s squirrely response spoke volumes and we`ll bring it to you next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HAYES: All right, we`re just getting word that the CEO of Univision who of course, the employer for Jorge Ramos is saying Trump has demonstrated complete disregard for Ramos and his viewers in a statement. We`ll bring you more of that if we get it. Joining me now is Maria Hinojosa, anchor and executive of NPR`s Latino USA, and MSNBC contributor Josh Barro correspondent for the Upshot at The New York Times. Maria, there has been an interesting response to what happened last night. You would I think expect journalists to kind of close ranks around a fellow reporter who is thrown out, but a lot of people felt that Ramos was making a spectacle of himself or he was jumping out of turn. What is your reaction both to what happened and the reaction to it? HAYES: Well, to see what happened actually was very distressing frankly as a journalist. I mean, look journalists, rough and tumble you guys. I mean, we shout out questions. We understand that. I haven`t spoken to Jorge. I don`t know if he had tried to reach out to Trump before and was just silenced and given a no answer. We know that he did -- Trump did the same thing to Jose Diaz-Balart, basically silencing him. So my response to reporters is, yeah, OK, we understand that this sometimes what happens in a news conference. But what`s distressing to me, actually, Chris, and it saddens me to have to say this. But if we were to change this scenario and Lester Holt or esteemed New York Times columnist Charles Blow were asking a question and that security guard took on those esteemed African-American journalists the way Jorge Ramos was taken on. I would like to see what the reaction would be then. What if it was Katie Couric who was asking a questions about Trump`s position on women and some of the comments that people believe are sexist? What if Tom Brokaw was trying to ask a question? Would that same attitude be? So, what I`m hearing from Latino journalists is that this is a moment that is problematic on the part of a presidential candidate. And, yeah, I go back to what Jorge Ramos said. He`s never like me been thrown out of a news conference in our entire careers. And then for this to happen from a presidential candidate to throw out an American citizen journalist? It is distressing, honestly. HAYES: To what Maria just said, Josh, part of what I think the -- there`s a little bit of a culture gap happening here. And I`ve been sort of trying to think hard about this, which is -- you know, Trump is saying things that are really horrible things to say about a group of people. And I think there is a little bit of a remove of just how offensive that is in a media that is not dominated by Latinos. And so I think the reaction is sort of refracted through that. JOSH BARRO, UPSHOT: Well, it`s not just Latino who Trump has said offensive things to or about. I think it`s that Trump has said and do many outrageous things over the last two months that people are no longer able to be shocked or surprised by it. And we`ve also watched as the media said over and over again, oh, this is the thing that does Trump in. And it`s not. And so now you can`t just write Trump off because he does something awful, because the electorate is not writing him off. I thought this moment was really interesting for something it demonstrated about Trump, which is how, you know, he has him thrown out -- and then brings him back in and has this five-minute exchange with him. And it`s this overall pattern in Trumps interactions with people where it`s like he can be screaming at you one minute and you`re in a horrible fight and then it`s back to business as usual from his perspective the next minute. I think that`s part of why we`re sort of numb to Trump having these interactions, because he can go back to having you right back in the press conference taking your questions. HAYES: Maria, can I play this clip last night, because I do think that one of things that has been clarifying is Trump saying I want to deport the 11 million, that`s my stated policy position. HINOJOSA: Which by the way would bankrupt, by the way, just so we`re clear. In terms of the economy, that idea, I mean, that`s why as a businessman, really, because that would bankrupt us. That is what we as American citizens would have to basically pay to try to deport all that . So that is just an unrealistic economic argument instead of actually, what would happen if you were to bring them into the American economy. But go ahead. HAYES: Now, watch this -- watch Ted Cruz get this question from Megyn Kelly and his response. Take a look. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) MEGYN KELLY, FOX NEWS: Do American citizen children of two illegal immigrants who are born here, the children, did they get deported under a President Cruz? CRUZ: Megyn, I get that that`s the question you want to ask, that`s also the question every mainstream media liberal journalist wants to ask. KELLY: Well, why is it so hard? Why don`t you just say yes or no? CRUZ: Because, Megyn, we need to solve the problem. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: I mean, that`s a kind of amazing moment. Would you deport American citizens is the question? And Ted Cruz cannot say no, of course I would not deport American citizens. HINOJOSA: It is an historical moment. I happened to have been with lawyers here in Chicago who are talking about an American citizen who was held in a detention center for over two years. So I know that people, I appreciate what you said, Chris, which is you`re trying to understand the culture gap. There is a culture gap. Latino are not present in the mainstream media. And so that statement that Trump made, which was go back to Univision, or go back to Univision, for Latinos as I`m heard in my reporting, that`s hate speak. And that actually the door for people to say the same thing me, because I was born in Mexico, and I`m an American citizen. And I grew up in the city of Chicago, more American through and through. But I know that what`s going to happen is that people will say that, oh, go back to Mexico. And it`s like really? Is that where we are? Where it`s like where you were born? It`s not setting us forward. I don`t really see a path forward. And I`m not really sure to what end. Because he`s not going to be able to be elected unless he has got more than half the Latino vote. HAYES: That is the question in the primary, right, is that the go -- get out of my country caucus -- the question is, how big is the get out of my country caucus that is the math right now. BARRO: It`s definitely larger than the Hispanic vote in the Republican primary. I mean, Trump likes to point out that he`s leading with Hispanics in the Republican primary, but that`s not that large a group. Although, I would know, you know, Trump has a 75 percent disapproval rating among Hispanics. There are 54 million Hispanics in the U.S. That leaves, you know, 13 million Hispanics or so with a positive view of Donald Trump which I think he would point out is a lot of people. HAYES: Maria Hinojosa. HINJOSA: I don`t know who -- I don`t where you`re finding those Latinos who are saying they like Donald Trump. But here`s what I think, there is a saying in Spanish, (SPEAKING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE) it means that things back fire on you. And you know what, without Latino voters, this could back fire on Donald Trump. HAYES: Maria Hinojosa and Josh Barro, thank you. That is All In for this evening, the Rachel Maddow Show starts now. THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED. END