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All In with Chris Hayes, Transcript 07/30/15

Guests: Michelle Goldberg, Brett Jones,Liz Mair, Robert Costa, AnthonyBaxter, Phillip Atiba Goff, Steve Osborne

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST (voice-over): Tonight on ALL IN -- DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: As far as preparing for the debates, I am who I am. I don`t know. I`ve never debated before. I`m not a debater, I get things done. HAYES: With Trump on course to take center stage in the first Republican debate next week, new details on the desperate behind the scenes scramble by the other contenders. TRUMP: I have no idea how I`ll do. Maybe I`ll do terribly, maybe I`ll do great. HAYES: Then, the officer who shot and killed Samuel DuBose, makes his first court appearance. (APPLAUSE) JUDGE: Ladies and gentlemen, you will conduct yourselves at all times. HAYES: Amid new questions about the accounts of the other officers on the scene. MARK O`MARA, ATTORNEY: If you don`t stop cops who are willing to cover up, you will not address the problem, ever. HAYES: Plus, Confederate flags placed at Dr. King`s church. Federal officials currently hunting for Minnesota dentist who killed Cecil the Lion. And the former CIA contractor who says he was targeted for being gay. FORMER CIA CONTRACTOR: I`m the only one who is here that is gay, and everyone knows that I`m gay. HAYES: ALL IN starts right now. (END VIDEOTAPE) HAYES: Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes. With just one week until the Republican Party`s first presidential debate, and much of the field to prepare, the current front-runner Donald Trump seemed pretty darned relaxed today, as he piloted a golf cart around a luxury course that he owns in Scotland. The Donald emerged from a giant Trump branded helicopter to attend the Women`s British Open. And just as star golfer Michelle Wie predicted, his presence turned the tournament itself into something of a sideshow. Trump was trailed by a scrum of reporters, many of whom he seemed to have little patience for, even as he vowed he would be a great diplomat as president. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TRUMP: What was it, Katy, 25? Twenty-five to Trump? What do you mean it was up there? You know what the number is. If it were bad numbers, she would have known. You don`t know what the major polls, Katy, so how would you know? Obviously, you don`t want to be an inaccurate reporter like many others. People have apologized to me. Maybe one day you`ll apologize, too. I mean, you can`t even ask a question. I think why get along -- wait. I think I would get along very well with a lot of people. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: Meanwhile, back at home, there is rising panic within the GOP about just what might go down in next week`s debate. The field now includes 17 major candidates, but under the rules set out by FOX News, which is hosting the debate, only the candidates polling in the top ten will be able to participate, though there will be a separate debate earlier in the day for the also-rans. Fox says it will use an average of five national polls to determine the top 10, and that whoever has the highest will be center change. Right now, according to MSNBC`s calculations, Trump is leading is the pack, and thus in the center. Chris Christie and John Kasich are hanging on for dear life in the nine and tenth spots. But there`s a big wrinkle in all of this. Nobody knows exactly which polls FOX plans to use, and FOX isn`t telling. According to some excellent reporting by Gabe Sherman in "New York" magazine, advisers for both John Kasich and Rick Perry who just outside the top 10 have been be lobbying Roger Ailes at FOX to choose polls that would get their candidates in, since Ailes, as FOX News president, has ultimate power over the debate. According to one FOX News personality, there is total confusion about how things will play out, with Ailes see in the second floor making it up as they go along. There`s also a reportedly unease among the candidates themselves about the pitfalls of having to stand near the unpredictable Trump on the debate stage, not to mention how they`ll navigate questions on the fraught topic of immigration now that Trump, the leader of the pack, has staked out a position of deporting all 11 million of the current undocumented immigrants living in the U.S. The only person in all of this who doesn`t seem to be sweating what`s going to go down is Trump himself. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TRUMP: As far as preparing for the debates, I am who I am. I don`t know. I`ve never debated before. I`m not a debater. I get things done. Those guys debate every night in their life. That`s all they do is they debate. They debate all over the place and nothing happens. So, I`m sort of the opposite. So, I have no idea. I am who I am. I`ll show up, I look forward to it, and that`s all I can do. I have no idea how I`ll do. Maybe I`ll do terribly, maybe I`ll do great. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: Joining me now, Republican strategist Liz Mair, who has worked with both Rick Perry and Carly Fiorina, and Robert Costa, national political reporter with "The Washington Post." Liz, let me start with you. I am fascinated by the scuttlebutt among the kind of Republican political strategic class about this phenomenon and the debate. I mean, I think at first people thought, well, we`ll wait this out, this is a summer squall that will, you know, drop a lot of rain and then move on. There`s got to be some starting to think this is going to stick around a while. LIZ MAIR, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: I think people do anticipate that probably the Trump phenomenon will continue for at least a few more weeks, though there are some problems that you see with some of his numbers, if you dig into certain polls. I certainly think amongst a lot of the candidates, there has been a great deal of angst about the debates, setting aside what we have seen with Trump for quite some time, because we do have a very wide field. We have a debate structure that was set up to address problems that occurred in the 2012 cycles. It does not address the problem we are dealing with at this particular juncture. And there are a lot of very qualified candidates who are not polling in a position where they`re going to make it into the debate. And that is a problem for the candidates, for the campaigns, for their supporters, but also, frankly, it`s of concern I think to a lot of people within the party writ large and the RNC itself, because if these people don`t make it in, we`re actually failing to give an accurate presentation of what the Republican Party is today, in terms of its experiential, philosophical and demographic diversity. A lot of people are very, very aggrieved to that. HAYES: Well, let me say this segue is perfectly into the conceptual heart of the matter here which is this, the Republican party, for all intents and purposes, has ceased to exist as an institution with any power over this process. The power right now lies in Roger Ailes. People are lobbying, they`re not lobbying Reince Priebus. They`re lobbying Roger Ailes. They don`t care what polls Reince Priebus calculates, Robert. MAIR: Right. HAYES: They care what Roger Ailes does. Roger Ailes has succeeded in supplanting, fully institutionally the Republican Party, and we`re seeing it happen before our eyes. Do you agree, Robert? ROBERT COSTA, THE WASHINGTON POST: At least for this debate, the media has a major role to play, and every single one of these nine debates, the next network that has it will have the same power over the criteria of who gets on the stage or not. But I think your point about an a weak party is powerful one and it`s reflected by the summer of discontent within the GOP. You have a coup attempt in the House, you have a senator calling the majority leader in the Senate a liar, you have Trump leading the polls. This is a party struggling with defining what and who it is. MAIR: Well, I would also just jump in for a second and say one of the other things that I think really speak to that point is if you look at the communications director of their Republican National Committee`s own op-ed in "Wall Street Journal" about the debates, and he is expressly saying there`s nothing the RNC can do, which I don`t totally agree with. I think the RNC still has some capacity in the form of bully pulpit, but basically he`s saying in that FOX is setting all of the rules and calling all of the shots, which is a tricky situation, definitely for candidates to navigate, because they do have to lobby Ailes directly. And nobody knows what`s going to happen. HAYES: Robert? COSTA: It sometimes feel though that the RNC gets too much attention. The RNC has a role to play in organizing the debates and has tried to limit from -- they had 20 in 2012, now nine this time around. The RNC has a role to play, but it`s not the most powerful force in this party. When you think of the party, you don`t think of the RNC. You think of the GOP as an idea, the sprawling base versus the establishment, all these different factions, 17 candidates. It`s not about the RNC. It`s about a party that`s broader than that organization having a lot of problems right now. HAYES: But this raises the crux of the issue, right? Which is two forces have now converged as we stand here looking at this debate a week from now, a sort of official kickoff, which is the campaign finance regulation that was passed from the McCain/Feingold, which made the party apparatus much less power financially, followed by Citizens United, which makes outside mega donors far, far more powerful, with the rise of the conservative media, all of those things have combined, meaning the Republican Party as an institution, as an idea, as a vehicle, is essentially beside the point. I mean, it is increasingly irrelevant from the lived experience of the actual way this campaign is being conducted. Or am I wrong, Liz? MAIR: Well, I think there are some other components to this. I mean, I think when you look at the philosophical diversity within the party, you`re not necessarily seeing when you talk about conservative media, for example, this sort of brand of conservatism that you see out there in conservative media is not necessarily reflective of the brand of conservatism that you see with a Rand Paul or with a Mike Huckabee. There`s a lot of spread, or certainly with like a Jeb Bush or John Kasich. There`s a lot of spread going on, and I think a lot of this is diverse responses to a lot of events that have actually occurred in politics and with policy over really probably the last 8 to 15 years, and so that fracturing is something that the party is having to contend with. You know, I agree with Bob that really you should necessarily have the RNC being the one calling all of these shots, and that`s probably not the appropriate way to look at it. But when you are looking at that kind of fragmentation, there are a lot of people that want the RNC to step up, to maybe provide some sort of predictability to the process. At the moment, that`s a real challenge for a lot of the campaigns, because there`s no predictability, and they are all having to work on the presumption they will find out next week and they may have, I don`t know, what 24, 48 hours` notice whether they`re in or whether they`re out, and that`s a very tricky situation to be in operationally. HAYES: Final point here, Bob, is -- immigration is going to come off and there`s going to be a moment, and it`s going to like that Rick Perry DREAM Act moment back in 2012 when he defended himself on allowing undocumented students to attend Texas universities, and Mitt Romney pounced on him, and that hurt him and then it hurt Mitt Romney in the general. There`s going to be a guy on stage saying, deport all 11 million, and that is going to be a huge political and substantive test for every one on that stage. COSTA: It is. And everyone talks about how this debate, Chris, is about Trump. And I think you`re right, this is about immigration, perhaps more about Jeb Bush and some of the other top tier contenders like Scott Walker. So, the Trump sideshow is part of it, but how are they going to handle immigration? Does Bush really come out and talk about a path to legalization? Does he articulate in a way in front of these millions of conservatives and really make a case? HAYES: Yes. Liz Mair and Bob Costa, thank you both. MAIR: Thanks. HAYES: All right. Not one but two documentaries have been made involving property development by Donald Trump, particularly his golf course in Scotland and the tactics he`s used to get what he wants. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) ANTHONY BAXTER, FILMMAKER: You`ve been accused of bullying the local people of the many estate, the local residents. TRUMP: Yes. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) like a Trump people (INAUDIBLE) TRUMP: Well, this is a bit like your documentary, Anthony. I mean, you show scenes like that, and it`s very hard to counteract a statement from such a woman. She actually reminds me a bit of my mother, if you want to know the truth. She looks like a lovely woman. BAXTER: You pursued her for legal costs when she took out court action against her. You pursued a 86-year-old pensioner for legal costs, and how do you think that comes across, Mr. Trump, to people in Scotland? TRUMP: Well, let`s put it differently. We pursued Michael Forbes. Michael Forbes was not fair to us, was not nice to us. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: Joining me now, filmmaker and investigative journalist Anthony Baxter, director of "A Dangerous Game" and "You`ve Been Trumped". Anthony, how duty end up with a film that centers around Trump? BAXTER: Well, I live in a small town on the east coast of Scotland. When Donald Trump first came to Scotland in 2005, just up the road from where I live. And he came in saying I`m going to create jobs, 6,000 jobs was the promise. And he was going to bring economic prosperity to the area was the claim. The local media seemed to eat that up and were obsessed with Trump`s celebrity when he came into Scotland. But I knew what he was going to do is build a golf course on one of our last remaining wilderness area, an incredibly beautiful stretch of dunes land, which was supposed to be protected by the Scottish government. And so, I picked up the camera, remortgaged the house and started to document what I was going on. And what I saw was very, very troubling indeed. HAYES: What did you find out about the way that Trump does business, during your investigation? BAXTER: Well, I think what we`ve been seeing recently is his inflammatory and dangerous things that he`s been saying, but what I found is the dangerous things that he actually does. I found how he had cut off the water supply to a local farmer, Michael Forbes, and this 86-year-old woman. That was done accidentally by his work force as they were building a road leading to the golf course. But in the new film "A Dangerous Game" which is released now on iTunes, we found how five years on that`s still the case. A 91-year-old woman is still without a proper working water supply. Mounds of earth were built next to residents` homes and they were bullied and harassed. We discovered how the environmental impact of his golf course was even greater than we even imagined. And so, it`s a documenting of what really happens, and what he does as being so dangerous. HAYES: If you go around to that area where you`re from where that golf course is built and you say the name "trump," what kind of reaction do you get? BAXTER: Well, I think people saw in my first film "You`re Being Trumped", the reality of the situation on local residents now. The public perception turned against Mr. Trump after the documentary was aired by the BBC. He threatened to sue the BBC for showing the film. I was arrested and thrown in jail when I questioned how Michael Forbes and his mother have been treated and how their water supply had been cut off, because it seemed to ask the local police were acting as a private security force for Donald Trump. And when people saw that on their screens, they were utterly appalled. And so, I think it was a turning point in terms of public perception. Up until that point, Mr. Trump kept claiming that he had 93 percent support in the polls. Well, that poll he referred to was never done. It was never 93 percent support. And the reality is that after all these years, the 6,000 jobs that he promised recently he`s been talking about being the jobs president, while the reality in Scotland is out of the 6,000 jobs promised, 200 have been created. Out of $1.5 billion pledged, a fraction of that has been invested. What we have is one golf course and none of the economic prosperity that was supposed to happen. HAYES: That sounds like an interesting warning for potential American voters, from Anthony Baxter. Thank you very much. BAXTER: Thank you. HAYES: Still to come: newly released body camera races even more questions about the shooting of Samuel Dubose. Plus, a former senator claims a CEO with a $75 million retirement package was exploited. Well, I don`t think that word means what he think it is means. Plus, the first openly gay Navy SEAL files a complaint with the CIA, alleging he was the target of homophobic bullies. He joins me live. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNDENTIFIED MALE: It`s pretty derogatory stuff towards the LGBT community directed at me. I`m the only one here who`s gay. (END VIDEO CLIP) (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HAYES: At 6:00 a.m. today, a maintenance worker at Ebenezer Baptist Church in Atlanta where Dr. Martin Luther King was baptized, where he and his father were pastors, where he was eulogized, was confronted with this -- Confederate flags, four of them, on the grounds of that historic church, as well as the Martin Luther King Jr. Visitor Center. The maintenance worker notified the National Parks Service, and soon, local law enforcement was involved. One of the Confederate flags was reportedly placed below a Black Lives Matter Hands Up poster near a garbage can. All the flags were gathered into a police car, and authorities say there`s video surveillance which may show two white men responsible for the act. The senior pastor of the church, Dr. Raphael Warnock, called it a cowardly act and placed it in context. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) REV. DR. RAPHAEL WARNOCK, SR. PASTOR EBENEZER BAPTIST CHURCH: In the wake of all that`s happening, whatever the message was, it was clearly not about heritage. It was about hate. It`s the kind of statement we would characterize as a terroristic threat. Some have been afraid to attach that term for some reasons when it comes to black churches, but the idea of terrorism cannot be a racialized idea if we were serious about equal treatment under the law. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: The investigation is ongoing. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HAYES: A former University of Cincinnati police officers indicted in the fatal shooting of Samuel DuBose made his first court appearance this morning where he pled not guilty to murder and manslaughter charges. As the judge set bond for Ray Tensing at $1 million, some onlookers could not contain their reaction. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) JUDGE: The defendant is facing the possibility of life in prison. It`s the court`s duty to ensure his appearance. The bond will be $1 million anyway. (APPLAUSE) JUDGE: Ladies and gentlemen, this is a courtroom. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: Tensing has since posted bond, speaking to NBC News correspondent Sarah Dallof, Tensing`s lawyer maintained his client acted in self defense, though many are questioning Tensing`s account based on the video from his body camera. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) STEW MATHEWS, LAWYER FOR RAY TENSING: He had a legitimate fear he was going to be run over by his car and killed, and he was defending himself. SARAH DALLOF, NBC NEWS: You know, you know hear him saying I was being dragged. Does he still maintain that happened? MATHEWS: Absolutely. DALLOF: It doesn`t appear to show that on the video. In fact, on the first body cam video, it doesn`t appear his on the ground and falls until - - or the car moves until the first shot is fired? MATHEWS: You know, it all happened so quickly, that I`m not sure -- I don`t know what happened. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: Tensing`s report of being dragged by DuBose`s car was corroborated by another officer who responded to the scene, Philip Kidd. According to the incident report, Kidd said he actually witnessed the Honda Accord dragged Officer Tensing. Video from Office Kidd`s camera, along with that from another responding officer was released today. But it`s not clear how much he my have seen of the incident. Tensing appears briefly on the left side of the frame and both he and Officer Kidd are already running toward DuBose`s car when the video starts. Both the officers who respond to the scene, Philip Kidd and David Lindensmith (ph) are now on paid administrative leave, according to the University of Cincinnati. The office of Hamilton County prosecutor Joe Deters said other officers involved in the incident are being investigated, but they have not been identified. In an interview with NBC News, the lawyer for the DuBose family, Mark O`Mara, questioned the culture of the University of Cincinnati Police Department. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) O`MARA: One bad cop, you indict the cop. That`s now happened. Two bad cops, you may have to indict the department. Even if you stop the murder, if you don`t stop cops who are willing to cover up, you will not address the problem, ever. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: Joining me now, Phillip Atiba Goff, he`s cofounder and president of the Center for Policing Equity, and Steve Osborne, 20-year veteran of the NYPD, author of "The Job: Two Tales from a Life of a New York City Cop." Let`s start with the other officers. There`s two incident reports. One of them appears to be the officer saying what Tensing told him, which OK, fair enough. The other seems to be an officer either drastically misrembering or fabricating to cover for his colleague. Your reaction, Phil? PHILLIP ATIBA GOFF, CENTER FOR POLICING EQUITY: Yes, I think it`s very difficult to say, given that we don`t have the body camera feed from before the running incident happens. I think this is also part of the issue we`ve had when we`ve been talking about body cameras as if they were a panacea for everything. Even Tensing`s body camera, it becomes blurry at the moment when you think my goodness this is when the shooting is happening. So, it`s not entirely clear whether the shot is fired first or the car starts to move first. So, here I have concerns about jumping to conclusions based on either of those reports. HAYES: Do cops cover for other cops? STEVE OSBORNE, RETIRED NYPD OFFICER: Everybody likes to believe that, but I`m telling you, most cops I know, you know, nobody is going to jail to cover up for another guy who made a mistake or did something criminal. I mean, people like to believe that, but I don`t know anybody who is willing to go to jail for somebody else over that. HAYES: But it`s interesting, you say willing to go to jail, right, because the idea is how will they go to jail? Because prosecutions in these cases happen so rarely, just as sort of a statistical matter. I mean, we have 560 police shootings, we`ve had four prosecutions in 2015. I mean, that doesn`t seem to me -- maybe you want to cover for somebody or don`t for whatever reason, but the threat of jail, does that hang over a cop when you come out of this sort of thing? OSBORNE: Absolutely, especially on an incident like this. You know this is going to be investigated upside down by everybody, by your own department, by internal affairs, by the D.A.`s office, by the feds. Everybody will investigate this. You know the truth will come out in the end. So, why would you say something that`s not true? HAYES: Right, but that applies -- I mean, a lot of people were saying this about Tensing, right? I mean, here is a guy who has a body camera, knows he has a body camera, says that he was dragged by the car, right? Body camera comes out and shows he wasn`t dragged by the car, and people are thinking, why would he possibly fabricate something that is so obviously contradicted by the body camera, and also seems like an argument for body camera? GOFF: Well, it`s an argument for body cameras, but I guess I have to push back a bit. It doesn`t look as if he`s dragged. I want to see what`s going on with the uniform, because in one of the reports it says it was cut up as if he was dragged for quite a long time. And that doesn`t seem consistent with what we`ve seen. But if you got a hand in a car and it starts to move and you feel your feet moving, if you feel as if you`re being dragged, the exaggerations that adrenaline brings to you, right, it feels like lying from the people looking outside, right? But it doesn`t feel like that way from the inside. If your life is dependant on other people you`re going to call -- HAYES: No, wait a second. So, you think he`s not lying. GOFF: I didn`t say I think he`s not lying. What I`m saying is there`s a world of possibility where this is more exaggeration than it is malicious. HAYES: OK. But it gets to the heart of the matter here, which is that it seems that the fear of -- for one`s life can always be possible, right? So, we can say -- we can look at that tape, and you can say, I as some omniscient god-like figure come in and I open the head of Tensing, and I look in it and I see that he was genuinely afraid for his life at that moment, and that then means it`s fine? GOFF: Absolutely, categorically no. OK? HAYES: But that`s what happens, and that`s how juries think about it. Look at what happens in courtrooms. GOFF: I understand. So, what I`m saying that we should be doing is taking several steps back, because in the end, what happens is, you have someone who was pulled over, at least ostensibly for not having a front license plate and possibly also for driving a little bit erratically possibly, and he`s dead at the end of the incident, right? That should be unacceptable. It`s not about, well, you know, his behavior should have been this, he should have been more responsive. It`s the fact that in the end, a minor offense ends up in death. That is the think we`ve got to be focusing on. Deters called it chicken crap stop yesterday, which I thought was fascinating. He`s a prosecutor, right, this guy, Republican prosecutor of Hamilton County, real law-and-order reputation, not a reputation as any bleeding heart at all, and he said two things that I thought were so notable. He said, it was a chicken crap spot, and he said if the guy is going to drive away, let him drive away. What do you think? OSBORNE: I don`t agree with either one. If you see a car without a front plate, I mean, I`ve done it. If there`s no front plate, you think maybe the car is stolen. You`re going to run it. Several times I`ve pulled over somebody without a front plate. They didn`t even know their front plate was missing, you know, something stole it off the car and you`re telling. So, it`s not chicken whatever stop -- HAYES: What about letting him just drive away? OSBORNE: At that point, if you let him drive away, I think he handed the cop a bottle of gin, he`s got no license, you have to make that choice. Once he started that car and he started to flee and the cop has to make a decision -- if it didn`t go that way, if it didn`t shoot, the cop has to make a decision, whether he`s going to let this guy take off, and maybe he runs someone over down the block. The cop is responsible. HAYES: But this is the same thing as Walter Scott, right? I mean, Walter Scott got out of the car and he ran away, right? He ran away because he had a warrant on missed child support. He didn`t want to go back to jail, right? The question is why do you -- OSBORNE: You made a good point -- this is something that nobody is talking about. Up to the point where the car stop, spun wildly out of control, the cop was as polite and professional as could be. He spoke to the driver, he asked him numerous times for his driver`s license. If that individual would have just listened to that officer, if he would have complied, if he could have -- HAYES: People hear that -- OSBORNE: -- none of those would have happened. HAYES: People hear that -- but people hear that, and that sounds like, I`ve got to -- cops tell me this all the time. They tell me this all the time. Just listen to what a cop says. And you know what I say? I`m an American and I have rights, OK? I don`t live in a state in which the authority of the law looms over me such that they can just tell me what to do no matter what. Like that is circumscribed by a document that literally our founders fought and died for that protects us and endows with protections from arbitrary state power to just say jump, how high? OSBORNE: The street is not the place to litigate these things. If you feel the officer is wrong, after you can make a civilian complaint, you can get a lawyer and sue the police department. There`s a million lawyers that will take your case. The street is not the place to litigate this. HAYES: That`s what every officer says. GOFF: That`s exactly right. That`s what every line officer says and this is where you and I part company on this, as we were talking about before, because regardless of what I want to teach, you know, my future children or I tell my friends to do during a stop, the consequences of not being an ideal citizen in relationship to an officer should not be death. That`s the thing that I find most objectionable to the way in which we frame this. It can`t just be about their behavior. If somebody is a bad mood, they shouldn`t die for that. And what we have right here in the worst-case scenario, the most ungenerous reading of Sam DuBose, in that day he was possibly inebriated. He had, a front license plate off and he didn`t behave properly. And for that, he is dead. That can`t be okay. OSBOURNE: That`s correct. But let me explain something to you, me as a police officers, I pull you over, I understand this is a stressful situation. Nobody likes getting pulled over. It`s stressful situation for me also. I do not know who you are... HAYES: I know, every cop says that. OSBOURNE: You can be sitting on a 9 millimeter waiting to light me up. HAYES: But at the end of the day, we have got 560 dead citizens, some percentage of those armed and some percent of those killings possibly completely justified, right. But the way the balance of this hangs, I mean, the scales tip in one direction and that`s just sort of a fact of the numbers at this point. Phillip Atiba Goff, Steve Osbourne, I would love to have you guys back to do this again. Thank you very much Coming up, the first openly gay Navy SEAL files a complaint with the CIA alleging he was targeted for sexuality. He`ll join me ahead. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HAYES: If I were to ask you who the most persecuted people in America are, what bigotry is at the top of the list, would your answer be bigotry against the successful? Well, that`s what former Texas Senator Phil Graham said this week at a House committee hearing. When asked about the regulatory burden on private businesses, the retired senator pivoted, lamenting the plight of the successful. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) PHIL GRAHAM, FRM. TEXAS SENATOR: Well, look, it goes way beyond paperwork. What all this is about is political demagoguery, it`s the one form of bigotry that is still allowed in America, and that`s bigotry against the successful. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: But Graham,whose name is on the financial deregulation bill that is largely viewed as one of the key contributors to the biggest financial crisis in 80 years saved his most righteous indignation for the evidence of such bigotry, that people gave his former CEO buddy and, quote, exploited worker guff for his $75 million retirement package. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) GRAHAM: My friend Ed Whitaker, AT&T, if there`s ever been an exploited worker, even though they made a big deal about him getting $75 million when he retired, the man added billions dollars of value. He was exploited. It was an outrage. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: According to the Wall Street Journal Whitaker`s retirement package from AT&T was actually closer to $160 million. Just terribly, terribly sad. (COMMERCAIL BREAK) HAYES: Former Navy SEAL Brett Jones, the first openly gay member of that elite unit, has filed a complaint alleging he was the victim of homophobic bullying while deployed as a CIA contractor last month in Afghanistan. Jones, who says his family helped convince him to write a memoir called "Pride: The Story of the First Openly Gay Navy SEAL" says he experienced such a disturbing pattern of harassment last month from his fellow contractors, he concocted a fake story in order to get on a helicopters and leave. Writing in his 15 page complaint, Jones said that, quote, "I called my husband, woke him up and filled him in on everything that had happening, unsure of who I could trust at this point, I contacted a deputy director and told him of the fake family emergency." Around the same time, Jones also recorded a rather chilling message on his cell phone. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) BRETT JONES, RETIRED NAVY SEAL: My name is Brett Jones. It is July 2nd, 2:45. The reason I`m making this is in the event that something happens to me, I guess that there`s evidence. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: This afternoon the CIA sent a statement to All In which reads in part, "CIA has no comments on specific allegations raised. We take very seriously any allegation of sexual, racial or any form of harassment and/or discrimination at the CIA. We have a zero tolerance policy against such behavior and CIA leadership is committed to holding all employees accountable for living and promoting this policy." Joining me now is former Navy SEAL Brett Jones. Now, Mr. Jones, can you tell me what started to happen when you landed on assignment working for this contractor that was contracted with the CIA in Afghanistan? JONES: Well, when I arrived, there were a series of things that were happening. When I got off the plane, there wasn`t a vehicle to pick me up, which was unusual, but not the end of the world. When I got into our team room, I noticed that as soon as I walked in a bunch of guys sort of walked out. It was a lot of little things over the course of about two weeks that were happening, leading up to me overhearing a conversation where one of the guys used the word -- the F word describing gay people negatively, and I had to pull him off to the side and talk to him about it. And then it was just a series of things after that. Lots of little things, but leading up to being left on a mountain as they drove off and left me, and they eventually did come back and pick me up, but it wasn`t -- it wasn`t in a joking manner. This wasn`t a playful sort of thing. The whole trip I was there, the tension was just so thick, and it led up to a PowerPoint presentation right before a fairly dangerous brief, and that PowerPoint presentation had some of the most disgusting things I`ve seen on them. I knew that I needed to retrieve that PowerPoint presentation for evidence, and so I woke up early the next morning to do just that, and discovered a bunch of racist pictures being used as a screen saver on one of the computers right as you come in and out of the team room. So I had no idea where this began or where it ended. HAYES: You -- I want to go back to this incident where you were left on a mountain, just to be clear, because there is some sense in which you felt genuine threat from the men you were working with. These were fellow contractors, is that right? JONES: It was both contractors and agency staff. HAYES: And agency staff. You`re saying they -- they out of essentially anti-gay animus from the beginning they knew you were openly gay, they treated you differently, and out of that anti-gay animus, they left you on a mountain and drove off? JONES: It`s -- yeah, in a nutshell, that`s basically what happened. Yeah. They did come back and pick me up. HAYES: What were the circumstances? You were there essentially doing a security sweep, right? And you got out of the vehicle and then they just got in the vehicle and drove off? JONES: Well, actually I had asked everyone to load up this vehicle, because I needed to test -- I was in charge all of the fleet out there, so I needed to test this vehicle, because we were going to put some new equipment in it. And this equipment was rather heavy, so I needed about eight guys, four guys in the cab and four guys in the back of the truck. And the truck got to a particularly dangerous part of a mountain trail. And I decided to get out of the back of the truck and advised the other guys to do the same. The other guys stayed in just in case the truck rolled. And when I got out, they drove through that difficult portion of the trail as I walked behind, and I started jogging to get back up in the vehicle and they drove off. HAYES: At some point, I want to show some of the PowerPoint presentation that you were able to get year hands on, the -- can we show that in a second in describing you as call you gay-gay or Frank & Beans, right? I mean, this was part of a security briefing to the whole team in which they were essentially calling you out this way in an federal document? JONES: Yes. It was -- it was pretty disturbing at the time. And right before a very dangerous mission. Now, these missions -- this kind of a group of people, teamwork is essential to mission success. You have to go out of that wire confident that every one of those guys is going to have your back and you`ll have theirs. You have to have that kind of confidence to be successful in that line of work. HAYES: All right. Brett Jones, thank you for your time tonight. Appreciate it. Still ahead, the dentist accused of killing Cecil the Lion is facing a barrage of threats and an inquiry from federal officials . Stay with us. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HAYES: Before it even opened on Broadway "Hamilton" the musical brought in over $27 million, it sold over 200,000 advanced tickets. The hip-hop phenomenon starring a diverse cast and focusing on the life of founding father Alexander Hamilton is so huge even President Obama went to New York to see it earlier this month with his daughters. And it`s all the brainchild of writer, actor and composer Lin Manuel Miranda. Now I got to interview him for the latest cover story of Billboard magazine alongside the producers of Hamilton`s cast album, Black Thought and Quest Love of The Roots. We talked about everything from President Obama`s visit to Donald Trump`s influence on the the immigration debate to the genius of Alexander Hamilton himself, something Lin also touched on when we last spoke about his groundbreaking musical earlier this year. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) LIN MANUEL MIRANDA, COMPOSER: He really wrote his way out of his circumstances and sort of played catch-up. He was reading about monetary policy during the revolutionary war in the event that he would be called to service -- like he was thinking ten steps ahead. I mean, I think -- if that`s the essence of genius, if it`s, OK, we have to win this war, but we also have to like figure out how to not be in perpetual revolution, which is what we saw all over the world today, which is what we see time and time again throughout history. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: The new cover story of Billboard magazine is already online. You can find a link to it on our Facebook page, Facebook/AllInwithChris. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HAYES: Tonight U.S. authorities are on the hunt for William Palmer, the man responsible for the death of Cecil, the famed Zimbabwe lion, earlier this month. Days after Palmer said authorities have not contacted him, the U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service made clear they have made multiple efforts to reach the Minnesota- based dentist. They`ve been resorted -- they`ve even resorted to tweeting at him saying, quote, "we`re investigating the killing of Cecil the Lion. We`ll go where facts lead. We ask Dr. Palmer or his rep to contact us immediately." Yesterday, protesters camped out at his Minnesota dental office, with signs that read rot in hell and #justiceforcecil Extradite Walter Palmer. Meanwhile, over 100,000 people signed on a White House petition calling for Palmer to be extradited. And today Cecil and the dentist accused of killing him, even made it into the White House press briefing room. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) JOSH EARNEST, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: This particular petition has reached that threshold. And so there will be a forthcoming White House response. The thing that I will say is, as a general matter, is that decisions about prosecution and extradition are made over at the Department of Justice. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: Walter Palmer now finds himself in the center of a genuine social media phenomenon. Thousands of people hurled insults at him using his name as a hashtag. His dental practice`s Yelp page has been flooded with negative comments like what a true piece of garbage you are, Palmer. Something should -- someone should do to you as you have done to others. And if you want a narcissistic idiot who has no values, scruples and no remorse, this is your guy. Personal details including about his family have been published by activists on the internet, according to The New York Times, including by actress Mia Farrow, who apparently tweeted the dentist`s home address and then removed it. Walter Palmer, the man accused of killing Cecil the Lion has been charged with any crime. In a statement this week, he said, quote, "I had no idea the lion I took was a known local favorite, was collared and part of a study until the end of the hunt." His guide spoke for the first time today saying, quote, "we would never shoot a collared animal. I was devastated and so was the client. We were both upset." Yet minute by minute, the calls for justice for Walter Palmer seem to come from all corners of the internet, which prompts the question, have we replaced the stocks with vigilante digital justice? More on that, next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HAYES: Joining me now, my friend and colleague Michelle Goldberg of The Nation who has written on the topic of Twitter public shaming specifically. So, OK, what is your reaction to the reaction to killing Cecil the Lion as it`s playing out? MICHELLE GOLDBERG, THE NATION: So, I don`t want say -- I don`t want anyone to think that I am kind of pro-lion killing, right? I mean, it seems to me that... HAYSE: Let`s just stipulate -- let`s start here. It appears what this guy did was both a crime and even if not a crime, is like a pretty awful thing to do that I think is a bad thing that people should feel badly about doing. GOLDBERG: Right. Yeah, big game hunting strikes me as despicable, Lion hunting, it seems like should probably be illegal, although I understand that there is some argument about conservationists. What I guess kind of bothers me is that he had -- I don`t know that what he has done is leagues more morally disreputable than what every other game hunter and every other big game hunter, and every other lion hunter. I`m not sure that it is that much more immoral to kill a lion who has a name then to kill an anonymous lion. And so, in a way, he`s been sort of, you know, picked out of this anonymous herd of big game hunters and subject to a level of kind of public shame and personal destruction and right just kind of, you know, reputational annihilation that I don`t think there`s any real coming back from, for violating a rule that he didn`t necessarily have any way to know existed. And I mean the kind of social appropriate attached to killing a beloved lion. Not poaching, right... HAYES: So here`s the other side of that argument. First of all is, maybe he did commit a crime, and maybe he did know, and the thing he did was a lot of people find disgusting and morally reprehensible. And if this makes an example out of someone and this actually brings changes to big game hunting, all for the best. And also, hey, so what? So, you have to live with some reputational annihilation, like you just took this lion`s life. GOLDBERG: I would say -- well, I understand-- I think that that is always is the justification, right, for kind of mob justice. The person did something, and so yes that kind of -- that allows you to feel righteous in any sort of response. And what`s going on here it seems is less about avenging my sense, is less about avenging Cecil the Lion than it is about kind of indulging in the sort of ecstasy of outrage. And you know it feels so good to be on the side of righteousness and punishment, particularly when the person is really -- when the person seems really, really deserving. I would say that justice that is kind of random and has no real connection to the severity of the crime -- you know, people always say, well, why this guy and not this guy, but I would say that he is hardly the worst person in the world this week. And so the idea that kind of to me that these public shaming that these... HAYES: John Ronson wrote a book about this, right. GOLDBERG: And actually in John Ronson`s book, I think well you said so what, you have some reputational annihilation. YOu know, people`s lives are shattered, they`re -- you know, their relationships, their careers. They are in therapy. And so... HAYES: Let me argue the other side, though, right. You`ve got this guy, you got Justine Saccho (ph) this woman who sent a dumb tweet and is an example in the Ronson of a stupid tweet about going to Africa, and her life was, you know, she was blown up on Twitter. She was fired. But then you have also got Bill Cosby, right. And this all seems like on the same continuum, which is that Bill Cosby escaped accountability both legally and reputationally for years, and when you talk to his alleged victims now, they say it was social media, it was essentially this public shaming function and its virility that for the first time is bringing accountability. GOLDBERG: I think that`s true. And I think it`s not just Bill Cosby, right. It`s like Ferguson, right? So it`s possible that kind of the price we have to pay for the justice that social media has brought to Black Lives Matter, to Sandra Bland, all of these different cases that might have before gone under the radar, maybe the price is that we`re all going to now live in this crowd source Penopticon. I think think the crowd source Penopticon is frightening and dangerous and seeing this sort of frothing vengeance is really disturbing. HAYES: There is something unnerving about it. I am with you on that. Michelle Goldberg, thanks for you being here. All right, that is All In for this evening. The Rachel Maddow show starts right now. THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED. END