All In with Chris Hayes, Transcript 07/27/15

Guests: Daniel Kurtzer, Gloria Allred, Eric Boehlert, Noreen Malone

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST (voice-over): Tonight on ALL IN -- MIKE HUCKABEE (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We would take the Israelis and basically march them to the door of the oven. HAYES: Huckabee compares Obama to Hitler as the race to get on the 2016 debate stage takes on an uglier tone. BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Maybe this is an effort to push Mr. Trump out of the headlines. It`s not the kind of leadership that`s needed for America right now. HAYES: Then, the polls show support among Republicans for Donald Trump`s position on immigration, while Jeb Bush makes his case in Spanish. JEB BUSH (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: (SPEAKING SPANISH) HAYES: Plus, "The New York Times" now backing off an explosive report on Hillary Clinton and her State Department e-mails. HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The facts are clear. I didn`t send nor receive anything that was classified at the time. HAYES: And a remarkable article in "New York Magazine" as 35 of Bill Cosby`s accusers come forward. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was very calculating. He was very manipulative. He knew exactly what he was doing. HAYES: ALL IN starts right now. (END VIDEOTAPE) HAYES: Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes. An explosion of outrage and backlash against a Republican presidential candidate, for once his name isn`t Donald Trump. Now, it was former Arkansas Governor Mike Huckabee who seems to be taking a page from the Trump play book and is refusing to back down from comments in which he used imagery of the Holocaust to attack President Obama over the Iran nuclear deal. Quote, "It is so naive he would trust the Iranians", Huckabee said, so far so good. "By doing, so he will take the Israelis and march them to the door of the oven." March the Israelis to the door of the oven. The Anti-Defamation League called the comment completely out of line and unacceptable. In Iowa today, Hillary Clinton said she was personally offended by Huckabee`s words. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) CLINTON: I find this kind of inflammatory rhetoric totally unacceptable. One can disagree with the particulars of the agreement to put a lid on the nuclear weapons program of Iran and that is fair game. But this steps over the line. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: Asked about Huckabee`s comments during a visit to Ethiopia, President Obama linked them to similar rhetoric from GOP Senators Tom Cotton and Ted Cruz. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) OBAMA: In particular, comments of Mr. Huckabee are, I think part of a general pattern that we have seen that is -- would be considered ridiculous if it weren`t so sad. I mean, we`ve had a senator call John Kerry "Pontius Pilate". We`ve had a sitting senator who also happens to be running for president suggests that I`m the leading state sponsor of terrorism. These are leaders in the Republican Party. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: Huckabee, for his part today, refused to apologize, despite being begged to do so during an appearance on FOX News. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) HUCKABEE: If we tonight take seriously the threats of Iran then God help us all, because the last time -- it`s Neville Chamberlain again. We`re just going to trust that everyone is going to do the right thing. Three times I have been to Auschwitz. When I talked about the oven door, I have stood at the oven door. I know exactly what it looks like. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: Huckabee also took criticism from Jeb Bush today though it`s important to listen closely to what Mr. Bush was objecting to. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) BUSH: I think we need to tone down the rhetoric for sure. Look, I have been to Israel not as many times as Mike Huckabee, who I respect. But the use of that kind of language is just wrong. This is not the way we are going to win elections. That`s not how we are going to solve problems. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: Mr. Bush is not so much criticizing the point Mr. Huckabee was making as his language and tone. And that`s important because while Huckabee may have crossed the line with the explicitness of his imagery the actual comparison is squarely within the conceptual mainstream of the Republican Party and the conservative movement. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) CHARLES KRAUTHAMMER, FOX NEWS: This is the worst deal since the Munich deal of 1938. JOHN BOLTON, FORMER AMBASSADOR TO THE U.N.: Look, this deal, whatever the final details turn out to be, is an American Munich. SEAN HANNITY, FOX NEWS: This is the equivalent of giving Adolph Hitler weapons of mass destruction. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What is it about this president? SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: He`s the Neville Chamberlain of our time. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Neville Chamberlain? GRAHAM: Please? Yes. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think it`s one of the quite frankly biggest foreign policy mistakes I have seen in my lifetime. I think it rivals Neville Chamberlain`s negotiations with Hitler. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Some have compared it to Neville Chamberlain`s Munich accord with Nazi Germany. But that doesn`t fully illustrate the danger. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: Joining me now, former U.S. ambassador to Israel, Daniel Kurtzer, professor of Middle East policy studies at Princeton`s Woodrow Wilson School, who today joined four other former U.S. ambassador of Israel in signing onto a letter to Congress in support of the Iran deal. Mr. Ambassador, your reaction both to Mike Huckabee`s explicit comments but to the broader comparison that is now become a routine touchstone in people arguing against the deal that essentially the Iran of today is like the Hitler of 19 -- late 1930s. AMB. DANIEL KURTZER, PRINCETON UNIVERSITY: Well, it`s an outrageous comment, a very sad commentary about the nature of our politics. There are serious issues to be debated here. But for anybody to equate what the president is doing to what Adolf Hitler did in World War II is just extraordinary. In some says, it`s a form of incitement, and we have seen results of that. Twenty years ago in Israel, there was the same kind of incitement against Yitzhak Rabin, and that led to a tragic outcome. I just hope people really stand back and understand Mr. Huckabee has crossed a serious line here. Every Republican candidate should stand up, condemn this and ask him to retract it. HAYES: Now, there are lots of folks who oppose the deal. In the argumentation against the deal, much of it has been about Israel. Much of it is about Israel`s security and obviously, a nation created in the wake of the Holocaust has a specific and earned fear of this kind of threat. As someone who was ambassador to Israel for four years, what is your understanding of this back and forth? KURTZER: Well, Chris, I experienced twice in my career -- once before I became ambassador and once during my tenure, the real expression of Israeli concern when its security and well-being was threaten. In the Gulf War of 1991, when Iraq fired dozens of Scud missiles at Israel, Israel had done nothing. Again the concern that Iraq in 2003 would react to the American invasion by launching perhaps weapons of mass destruction. So, it`s fair for the Israelis to be concerned, particularly about Iran. They are a country that`s called for Israel`s destruction, denies the Holocaust. I think the concern is a realistic motivation to look at this agreement and see whether it works. The reason I support the agreement is I think it is the best way to curb Iran`s program, to give us 15 or 20 years of time to see whether or not the Iranians will change their behaviors both in their nuclear program and outside of it, and to move them farther away from the possibility of acquiring a nuclear weapon. HAYES: But part of the debate and part of what makes it frustrating, think, is that there is one track in which people criticize the actual details of the deal. And there`s another in which when people invoking Munich, right, they are invoking it so say no amount of diplomacy was possible, right? I mean, the invocation of Munich is to say the nature of this state, the nature of this country is that it`s a fool`s errand and possibly suicidal and possibly leads to genocide to even engage in diplomacy. My take is, as someone supporting this deal, you don`t believe that to be the case. KURTZER: Well, that`s exactly right, Chris. And it`s even more than that. It`s the whole idea that somehow if you engage in diplomacy, you are selling out the country. We heard this as early as 2008 from President George W. Bush when he went to Israel and he equated diplomacy with Iran as appeasement. In a sense, setting the stage for the outrageous comments we`re hearing now about Munich and Chamberlain and even Hitler. I think the Republicans and those who oppose the deal ought to focus in on what`s wrong with it. If they don`t like it, let`s hear what`s wrong and we can have a reasoned debate. But this idea that diplomacy itself is to blame or diplomacy is the equivalent of appeasement I think represents a true ignorance of what diplomacy can accomplish. This agreement has some very strong aspects to it. There are some serious questions that have to be answered. I think that`s what the 60-day period in the Congress is designed to do. HAYES: Former U.S. ambassador to Israel under President George W. Bush, Daniel Kurtzer, thank you very much. KURTZER: Thank you. HAYES: All right. There are new polls out from NBC News and Marist. And once again, the news is good for Donald Trump. Trump is in first place in New Hampshire with 21 percent support, seven points better than his nearest challenger Jeb Bush. And he is in second place in Iowa with 17 percent, just two points below leader Scott Walker. Trump is one of the few candidates in the 16-person GOP field virtually guaranteed to be on stage for the first Republican presidential debate which takes place next Thursday. Only the candidates who placed in the top ten in an average of national polls will be allowed to participate. Republican candidates and outside groups supporting them have already spent nearly $8 million on TV ads in an attempt to raise poll numbers and they have struggled to get media attention with Trump hogging the spotlight -- a situation that prompted Rand Paul who had an ad asking whether the tax code should be killed with a wood chipper, or the chainsaw, or with fire to vow not to set himself on fire to compete with Trump for attention, stating, "I`m drawing the line at self-immolation." That`s a funny line, which seems like a good call. Senator and presidential candidate Ted Cruz who on Friday tried to score coverage by deeming fellow Republican and Senate majority leader Mitch McConnell a liar received a smack down for his trouble over the weekend with fellow Senate Republicans accusing him of grandstanding, sanctimony, and failing to learn lessons from kindergarten about mutual respect. Here`s where things now stand in the race for top 10. Trump leads the pack, followed by Bush and Cruz. Cruz in a relatively safe sixth place, while Christie and Rick Perry are clinging to a place on that debate stage, with a bunch of candidates nipping at their heels. Joining me now are MSNBC correspondent Josh Barro, also a correspondent of "The New York Times", and MSNBC political analyst and former chairman of the RNC, Michael Steele. Josh, I`ll begin with you. It`s over the last week, I feel like conventional wisdom has congealed around this kind of notion of the race for tenth, right? That it was something we have been talking about for a while. But, really, you`ve seen it now. Everyone is saying everyone is desperately trying to get attention to get on the debate stage. They`re trying to do crazy things in late July. Do you think that stands? JOSH BARRO, NEW YORK TIMES: I think it`s overstated a little bit. People have been talking about this like if you`re not on stage for this debate, you can`t -- you have no chance going forward. There are two problems with that. One is most of these people already have no chance going forward already. Rick Perry is not going to be the nominee, whether or not he`s on stage for this debate. But the other thing is most people are not going to watch this debate. There are going to will be a lot of debates. People will continue to tune in more and more as we get farther along. So, yes, I mean, I think, you know, the candidates were right on the bubble. They`d rather be on stage. If you`re not on stage, you`re probably not going to win. But it`s more than, if you`re not on stage, you probably won`t win because the reason you didn`t get on stage was that you had almost no chance of winning. HAYES: Michael, I can`t -- I can`t decide between two possibilities now, particularly Trump. One is that we are seeing something similar to the government shutdown which is, it was terrible for the Republican Party`s brand for a few weeks, a month, didn`t matter a year later. The other is that it`s something more like the Sensenbrenner deal on immigration, back in 2006, which would have criminalized people here illegally, which created a profound lasting mark essentially on how a lot of people thought about the Republican Party. What do you think it is? MICHAEL STEELE, FORMER RNC CHAIRMAN: I don`t know if it`s either one. I really think that, you know, to Josh`s point just as we are over thinking who will be on stage and who is not going to be, I think folks are over- thinking what`s going on here with a lot of folks inside the GOP. You know, what we call the base. This is not rocket science. It`s not a complicated matter. This candidate, Donald Trump, is speaking authentically to a lot of their fears and concerns. Now, whether you agree or disagree they could care less. What do they care about -- HAYES: That`s true. STEELE: But you need to understand that. HAYES: Believe me, I understand that. (CROSSTALK) STEELE: Not you personally, but I`m saying, all this great thinkers need to come to a realization that this is not complicated for them. And until someone and I`ve said this for a while now, until some of the other 15 figure out how to put themselves in that conversation, in a way that they can bring serious policy discussions, and proposals and bigger ideas than Donald Trump is talking about he`s going to own that space of the stage, and it`s going to continue to grow. HAYES: But there is also a problem that strikes me here. And this to the Mike Huckabee phenomenon which is the incentive structure of the race is fascinating and dynamic, OK? Because it`s unprecedented, you have never had serious contenders. You`d never had this much money, right? The combination of the two. You got Citizens United plus all these contenders. The question of how you gain this out, people, I think, are learning the lesson that you want as much free media as possible and the way to get that is to say crazy things. BARRO: Yes, you can`t outdo Donald Trump in that regard. I mean, this is -- this is not rocketing Mike Huckabee to front of the field, getting more outrageous. HAYES: We don`t have the polling yet. I don`t know. I mean, I generally don`t know. BARRO: Maybe. But I think in terms of Trump, Michael is right that people feel he`s speaking to them authentically, but so much of it is mood affiliation, which is if you get Donald Trump talking about policy specifics, which happens occasionally, he actually articulates a position on immigration that`s arguably to the left of most of the field. He says, well, you know, some of these people, the good ones, we`ll work something out with them. And I think it seems once people start paying attention to that, they`ll decide Trump is a liberal, Trump is a guy who was once for single payer health care. Trump was for a wealth packs. But the thing is Trump just feels he`s got to go in there and be your tough guy. HAYES: Right. BARRO: And, yes, maybe he`ll work something out with the illegals and you don`t feel great about it. But at least it`s Trump working that out for you, and you know Trump`s got your back. I don`t think any of these politicians can match that. I don`t think anybody can recreate what Trump has built over 35 years of being ridiculous. HAYES: There is the argument that essentially Trump -- that Trump`s rise essentially helped Jeb Bush, because it takes attention away from Scott Walker who is, in some ways, bush`s biggest threat. You see reliably right now in the polling, there`s Trump and then there`s Bush and Walker. Trump, Bush, Walker, that seems like a robust finding. Bush and Walker have significant financial backing. They both were governors of state that have gone to Democrats and presidential elections. What do you think of that? STEELE: Yes, I think there is validity to that. I think the Bush team recognizes that they are sandwiched in between a real rival in Scott Walker and the megaphone that is Donald Trump. And so, you noticed in response to the Huckabee question he`s carefully weaving it through there. Let`s tone down the rhetoric. That`s a nod to the Trump piece. Then to speak a little bit more substantively he goes, you know, we all disagree with this Iran plan, which again recognizing where the other people on stage are. So, he`s got a very delicate tight rope to walk. The other x factor here, I think that the new entrant John Kasich who is not yet on the board is something that`s also going to be fascinating to watch in the next few weeks, in the next week to see if he can get the bump to get on stage. HAYES: I agree. I want him to advocate for a pathway to legalization. Let`s see where that brings. Josh Barro, Michael Steele, thank you both. Still ahead, why Donald Trump`s stamp on immigration is pretty much in line with the Republican primary voters. Plus, how a "New York Times" bomb shell exclusive on Hillary Clinton is falling apart. And 35 of Bill Cosby`s accusers speak out in a powerful report from "New York Magazine". (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He reached over and put a pill next to my wine glass. He said, take this. It will make you feel better. It will make us all feel better. (END VIDEO CLIP) (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HAYES: Once a week every Tuesday on our Facebook page, I answer your questions questions. Last week, I was asked about everything form Donald Trump`s presidential chances to the reporting we deal on the California drought for "ALL IN American: Water Wars". By the way, you can find those reports on Facebook #allinwaterwars. Tomorrow, starting at noon Eastern, you can find me on Facebook and basically ask me anything. Well, you can ask me anything. I don`t promise to answer. Just got to Facebook.com/allinwithchris. We`ll be right back. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HAYES: Today, further evidence that Donald Trump`s views on immigration are not outliers in the Republican Party. Rather, they reflect the views of many primary voters if not the majority. A new poll out from CNN found that 63 percent of Republicans favored stopping the flow of illegal immigrants to the U.S. and deporting those already here. Another specifically worded poll found that 46 percent of likely Republican primary voters in Iowa want illegal immigrants to be required to leave. Another poll conducted last month found that 43 percent of Republicans felt undocumented immigrants should not be allowed to stay legally. That is just so we`re clear, mass deportation. And keep in mind, this isn`t just primary voter. House Republicans have voted in favor of mass deportation by targeting programs a series of programs which provide statues to immigrants brought to the country as children. So, for a party that needs to win more than 40 percent of the Latino vote in 2016, according to analysis done by the group Latino Decisions, it falls to Jeb Bush to be the one to bridge the seeming unbridgeable gap through sheer force of personal experience. Today, Bush, who was married to a woman born in Mexico whose children are Mexican-Americans, sat down to speak with MSNBC`s own Jose Diaz Balart in Spanish for an interview that aired on Telemundo to make his case. There, he distanced himself from Donald Trump`s most inflammatory statements. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) BUSH (through translator): A person speaking in such a vulgar fashion that this makes it more difficult, that is to say the solving of this problem when we have politicians that talk like that. It`s not progress. We should say this is a plan to do it, to solve it, not just say, I`m on your side. That`s what Trump does. You`re offending millions of people but if you are here illegally, it`s senseless. In political term, it`s mad. In regard to creating an environment where problems can be solved, it`s worse. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: After that interview, Jose Diaz Balart told me what he thought about the experience of sitting down for conversation with Jeb Bush entirely in Spanish. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) JOSE DIAZ-BALART, MSNBC HOST: It was unusual to sit down for 30 minutes with a candidate for the presidency and carry out an interview completely in Spanish. No ground rules. No formation of what kind of questions I was going to be asking. The entire thing was in Spanish. He knows that people are going to look at this, translate it and see what he has to say. You know, one of the fist questions I asked was whether his children were ever victims of discrimination. If so, how did he deal with it? He says, he told me they were. There was a time when one of his sons came up to North Florida to play baseball with his team and other people because of the color of his skin were making fun of him. And how he deals with that. He said, you know, look, the fact of the matter is there are a lot of issues on social justice and racism in the United States, not just goes for the Hispanics. But there are problems with the African-American community. So, I don`t know that he was thinking of primaries in this kind of interview. HAYES: You know, one of the ways that I see Bush particularly negotiating this is he has a particular comparative advantage. He speaks fluent Spanish. He has a family that is Latino. He lives in Mexico. He`s comfortable in that setting. At the same time, it`s striking to me that he has foreclosed on a path to citizenship. I wonder how strongly the policy red line is currently resonating folks that are watching your broadcast, consuming Spanish language media. DIAZ-BALART: It`s a big deal, it`s a big deal because -- and I asked him because some years ago, he wrote a book where he said there should be a pathway to legalization for the undocumented but that pathway should not include citizenship. And what he says is, and he reminded me that in the last amnesty, as he called it, that Ronald Reagan put through in the mid `80s, he said a good percentage of those that came out from under the shadows and became legal never -- decided never to go through the path to citizenship. What he`s saying now that immigration reform should include after the border has been secured and the conditions are met. That it should have a pathway to legalization for the undocumented, but no special path or unique path to residency and citizenship. He says that that`s something he believes could be achieved politically in the next -- you know, as the next president could do that. HAYES: Finally and quickly here, Jose, how much is the current rhetoric on immigration from Trump across the field damaging the Republican brand among large portions of the electorate, particularly those consuming Telemundo and Spanish language media. DIAZ-BALART: A lot, Chris. I asked him about that. He said he was personally hurt. I asked him about Donald Trump`s statement that those across the border illegally are, you know, rapists and drug dealers and killers. He said he was personally hurt by it. But that also, there is no place for that kind of vulgarity in the national discourse. I think that he`s very aware of the fact that when Trump said that and then in his subsequent visit, for example, to the border to Texas and Mexico, and that issue and the way he presents the where I shall is something that the Spanish language audience in the United States in the Latino community is seeing and paying very close attention to because, even those here legally know someone who doesn`t have their documents -- a cousin, a son, a daughter, a father, a mother, a friend. There but for the grace of God go I. And this is an instance where words matter, where how you say things matters. It is no doubt having an impact on how people perceive the Republican Party when you have Donald Trump repeating statements over and over again. HAYES: Jose Diaz-Balart, thank you so much. DIAZ-BALART: Good to see you. (END VIDEOTAPE) HAYES: Up next, the new committee looking into the death of Sandra Bland in a Texas jail cell. Stay with us. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HAYES: Today, the Texas district attorney overseeing the Sandra Bland case announced that a committee of outside attorneys will investigate her death and review evidence as it comes in to help his office answer lingering questions about her incarceration and death. Bland died of an apparent hanging while in her Waller County, Texas jail cell. There are several parallel ongoing investigations both into her death and the circumstances of her arrest three days prior which stemmed from failing to signal during a lane change. Waller County District Attorney Elton Mathis also said the committee of lawyers will help his office make decisions on the case which could go to a grand jury as early as next month. Well, the DA had reportedly texted the Bland family attorney last week that Bland had swallowed a large quantity of marijuana or smoked it in jail, a claim many greeted with skepticism, today`s toxicology report refers simply to levels of marijuana which are thus far indeterminate of timing or quantity whose relevance remains also undetermined. The funeral and burial service for Sandra Bland took place Saturday at Duke Page African Methodist Episcopal Church in Lyle, Illinois near Chicago. Mourners were reminded that Sandra Bland had decided her purpose revolved around social justice. As the church`s pastor said, quote, "this is not a moment of defeat, this is a moment of victory. We are not funeralizing a martyr or a victim, we are celebrating a hero." (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HAYES: A bombshell story from the New York Times about Hillary Clinton`s emails is falling apart so quickly that the paper`s own public editor today called it, quote, a mess. Last week, The Times blasted thousands of readers with the news that a criminal inquiry is being sought over Hillary Clinton`s email use. The media, understandably, went nuts. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: New potential trouble for Hillary Clinton as the Justice Department considers a request to open a criminal investigation into whether she mishandled classified information. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: More questions about the private email account for the democratic presidential hopeful and a possible criminal investigation. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hillary Clinton tonight facing possible scrutiny by the Justice Department. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The democratic presidential front runner now facing the possibility of a criminal investigation. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: NBC News published a similar story that has now been corrected with an editor`s note reading, quote, the Department of Justice initially indicated that the referral from the inspector general was criminal in nature. The Justice Department official now says it was not a criminal referral. Which speaks to the problem here, because five days later it looks like what had reported as a criminal inquiry into Hillary Clinton was, a, not a criminal inquiry and, b, not actually into Hillary Clinton. What appears to have happened is that the inspector general asked the Department of Justice to open a probe, not necessarily criminal, into the possible transmission of sensitive government information in connection with Hillary Clinton`s email while she was secretary of state, which could include Clinton, but also other people like the dozens, perhaps hundreds of people who were emailing with her. Again, not a great story for Hillary Clinton, but also not the Justice Department opens criminal probe into Hillary Clinton. A top editor at The New York Times today explained their reporting saying, quote, we got it wrong because our very good sources had it wrong. The entire episode raises the issue of the strange, fraught, combative, some argue dysfunctional relationship between the Clintons and The Times. Joining me now, Eric Boehlert, senior fellow at Media Matters who is one of the people I think who thinks there is dysfunction. All right, so you guys won this round. ERIC BOEHLERT, MEDIA MATTERS: They made it easy. HAYES: Well, they got the story wrong. I think at this point it`s clear that the two key things that made it a bombshell story: criminal inquiry, Hillary Clinton are not true. BOEHLERT: Yeah, other than that they got it right. So, the story fell apart within hours. They started rewriting it in the middle of the night. By the time most people picked up the paper Friday morning, the story had dissolved. By noon, it was completely dissolved when the State Department, Elijah Cummings on the Hill saying there is no criminal referral. And then we saw soret of wave after wave of semi-correction, now we wait four days for an editor`s note and the editor tells the public editor, what can we do? Basically we`d do the same thing again. There needs to be accountability. There needs to be transparency. This is a pattern of awful journalism. HAYES: OK. Right, so this is where I want to get. So, you have a series that The New York Times has it out for the Clintons. BOEHLERT: Yes. HAYES: In this case you have got two reporters, I think it`s Michael Schmidt and Matta Puzo (ph), if I`m not mistaken, both of who are fantastic reporters, in my humble opinion, great reporters. This, it seems, they got this wrong. What is your evidence that there is some sort of larger pattern or practice? Here`s, let me give you my theory of the case. They write a lot about the Clintons. BOEHLERT: No, that`s not it. HAYES: And, like anyone does -- because they`re the paper of the record, and these are two of the most important, powerful, famous people in all of American and American politics, sometimes they write stuff you guys don`t like, but largely they don`t. BOEHLERT: It`s not that we don`t like it, it`s not accurate. The fact -- the idea that The New York Times would sort of throw up a story up about Jeb Bush that he maybe kind of was under criminal investigation, put it on the front page, put it on the front page during the campaign and get the entire story wrong... HAYES: If anyone thought... BOEHLERT: They would not do that (inaudible) on a Thursday night. HAYES: I disagree. If The New York Times thought they had that story on any candidate across the aisle, criminal probe opened into, you know, Bernie Sanders, that would be that would be front page news and you would push it out. BOEHLERT: Now, here`s the pattern. Go back to Whitewater, got back to Wen Ho Lee, go back to Loral Satellites, go back to the 90s. They have been trying to criminalize... HAYES: A massive percent of the people who are like, I have no idea... BOEHLERT: I know. That`s what Google is for, thank god. And you go to Media Matters. HAYES: Wen Ho Lee A Block tomorrow. BOEHLERT: And Whitewater, and all that stuff. Look, they have been trying to criminalize the Clintons for 20 years. HAYES: What is they? What does that mean, though? What does that mean? BOEHLERT: I`ll tell you exactly what it means, they take these bogus leaks from partisan sources on the Hill, Republican sources. When there was the Whitewater committee they did it then. They dictated it. They typed up these leaks. It turned out to all be wrong. And we are seeing it again. HAYES: But the they -- but here`s the thing, it`s not the same people. So, it`s like, it starts to sound like a little paranoid. BOEHLERT: No, it`s institutional. It`s institutional. We know it`s institutional, because the players are now different. It`s not the same editors and it`s not the same reporters. There is a career path in D.C. You take cheap shots at the Clintons you are going to get the clicks. It was written about -- this has been chronicled. HAYES: Do you think that`s true about the original email story, which they got right? BOEHLERT: No, they didn`t get it right, because they hinted at criminality and they had to walk that back. People sort of forget about that. HAYES: But that`s a story. You agree that`s a story. BOEHLERT: That she had a private email, yeah, but they didn`t get it right. Again, they wanted to hint at criminality. It was wrong. Look, we have seen this pattern over and over again. Why doesn`t The New York Times reveal who lied to them? Who got the story wrong? HAYES: That I think -- that is a totally fair -- that is fair question, because their source did burn them. BOEHLERT: And there needs to be more accountability, because it`s a pattern and they won`t acknowledge it. HAYES: All right, Eric Boehlert, thanks for being here. Still to come, 35 of Bill Cosby`s accusers tell all in a massive report from New York Magazine. I will talk to the author that wrote the piece and a lawyer who represents 17 of Cosby`s accusers ahead. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HAYES: We have got some good news for Bernie Sanders tonight as a new poll shows him winning a hypothetical general election contest. CNN and ORC International asked people who they would be more likely to vote for if Bernie Sanders was the Democratic candidate for president, if he got the nomination. And the results, well, they`re pretty incredible. Against Donald Trump, Bernie Sanders wins 58 to 38. Against Scott Walker, Bernie Sanders wins 48 to 42. Even against Jeb Bush, Bernie Sanders squeaks ahead at 48 to 47, though that`s within the margin of error. Hillary Clinton also beat all three of those Republican candidates in the theoretical matchup with even bigger margins. We`ll be right back. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HAYES: After months of coverage of a sexual assault allegedly perpetrated by Bill Cosby, a kind of collective inertia had set in, a feeling that even as more and more accusers seem to come forward every week, nothing would ever come of this because the statute of limitations had run its course. And while that particular issue is still central and relevant, New York Magazine, in a really incredible piece of journalism has broken through that inertia in a remarkably powerful way with this cover image. It represents 35 of the 46 women who have publicly accused Bill Cosby of sexual assault according to New York Magazine. NBC News has identified 36 alleged victims, a few of whom say drugs but not sexual assault were involved. We note, as we always do, that Bill Cosby has denied these allegations and has never been criminally charged. Over six months New York Magazine interviewed every accuser who was willing to go on the record -- their names, faces, all sharing their experience individually, one by one. We`re going to talk to the New York Magazine Senior Editor Noreen Malone who made that come together in a moment. But first the question of whether Bill Cosby will ever pay a penalty for these alleged acts in a criminal setting? One of the lawyers who is trying to get Cosby into a civil proceeding to depose him is Gloria Allred, victims rights attorney representing 17 accusers of Bill Cosby and she joins us now. What is the legal game plan here from your perspective? GLORIA ALLRED, ATTORNEY: Well, very simply since we have obtained and achieved our victory in the California supreme court last week in our case of Judy Huff versus William H. Cosby, we can now proceed to litigate the case and move it forward which we are doing very, very vigorously. And the next step for us is we would like to take his deposition. We have noticed Mr. Cosby`s deposition. We have provided his lawyers with the time, the place and the location. And we would like to be able to take it in August because it`s long overdue for our clients to be able to move forward in this lawsuit. It`s been delayed because of Mr. Cosby`s efforts to block it. And he did so by not only filing a writ with the California court of appeals, which was denied but then filing a petition for review with the California supreme court which was also denied. But now we can move forward and we are doing so vigorously. HAYES: My understanding, and again it is a little hard to get this definitively because there is some haziness about the number of accusers and obviously there may be people out there who haven`t come forward, but in terms of public on the record accusations that nothing falls before the statute of limitations, right? So a civil pursuit is really the only legal avenue open at this point. Is that your understanding? ALLRED: Well, in reference to my client Judy Huff, the district attorney has said it is too late for her even if what she`s saying is true, there is no statement that it`s not true or it is true, but it is too late in California to criminally prosecute Mr. Cosby for what Judy alleges. However, it is not too late because there is a different statute of limitations, a different time period to proceed with a civil lawsuit which is what we are doing. As to any other accuser, the Los Angeles police department has said that they are investigating accusations by other women who allege wrongdoing by Mr. Cosby. But we don`t know whether there will be any criminal charges that will result from their investigation. And as to any other accuser -- as to the others that I do represent who are in L.A. Magazine, you know, it appears it may be too late for them to have any case criminally prosecuted. That is, it wouldn`t be within the statute of limitations, the time period to do so, even if the district attorney felt he or she could prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt. As to -- however, as you point out may be others who have not yet come forward. And I can assure you that there are some who have not yet come forward. HAYES: Well, to the point of the statute of limitations and recourse here, Ms. Allred, what is the sentiment among the people that you represent about their faith that they will have a day in court, that they will -- that this won`t just be stalled and drawn out forever? ALLRED: Well, as to Ms. Huff, we are confident that we are going to be able to provide her with her day in court. As to the others, of course, if the time period set by law bars them from proceeding either with a criminal case or a civil case, or with a civil case, which is the case for most of them, then that is disheartening. However, the bad news is that while they can`t proceed in a court of law which is bad news, the good news is that they can proceed in the court of public opinion. They can have their voice, they can become empowered by speaking out which is what they have done and which is what they will continue to to. HAYES: That`s an important point about the recourse outside of a courtroom. Gloria Allred, thank you very much for your time. ALLRED: Thank you very much. HAYES: Up next, the author of the groundbreaking article on 35 of Cosby`s accusers joins me live. Stay with us. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) VICTORIA VALENTINO, COSBY ACCUSER: My name is Victoria Valentino. LOUISA MORITZ, COSBY ACCUSER: I`m Louisa Moritz. JOYCE EMMONS, COSBY ACCUSER: My name is Joyce Emmons. JANICE DICKENSON, COSBY ACCUSER: My name is Janice Dickenson. BARBARA BOWMAN, COSBY ACCUSER: Barbara Bowman. LILY BERNARD, COSBY ACCUSER: My name is Lily Bernard. He was very calculating. He was very manipulative. He knew exactly what he was doing. You should not let any person who does harm to your body get away with not being brought to justice. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: That is just part of the remarkable piece assembled by New York magazine which interviewed 35 Bill Cosby accusers. And joining me senior editor at New York Magazine, Noreen Malone who has the byline on the article. Just first of all, this is phenomenal first rate journalism. So, thank you for doing it. NOREEN MALONE, NEW YORK MAGAZINE: Thank you. It was a magazine-wide effort. It truly was. HAYES: Well, it was a magazine-wide effort that was then taken down by some hacker attack today? MALONE: Yeah, our website was down for a lot of the day, but it`s back up now. And you can read it in print and online. HAYES: OK, and apparently unrelated, at least the hack... MALONE: You have to... HAYES: Who knows? MALONE; Yeah, who knows. HAYES: I have to interview the hacker. MALONE: Yeah. HAYES: OK. It is now up and you can read it. How long did it take? MALONE: So, this process started all the back in December. Our photo director Jody Kwan (ph) had been reading the news, as we all had, in the wake of Hannibal Burress doing the bit about Bill Cosby being a serial rapist. More and more women were coming forward, one by one. They were publishing in the Washington Post, they were publishing in Huffington Post, they were doing press conferences. Almost every day there was a bit of news about Cosby. And Jody saw, before everyone else saw, that if you could get them all together in one place and take a picture there would be a lot of power in just having all of those women standing together like literal strength in numbers. HAYES: What did you -- what struck you as you went through the process? And there are extensive interviews. You can read and watch some of the interviews. You can read them on the website. And they were all done -- it should be clear, and this is important -- individually, right. So, it`s not like a group of people so that details sync up, right, these are all individual people telling their story. MALONE: So, the similarities were really striking. The alleged incidents, a lot of them had a lot of things in common. For one thing, a lot of the women were aspiring models or actresses, very young, very early in their careers. HAYES: One was 17 at the time. MALONE: Yeah, teenagers. And they said -- oh, my agent told me that, you know, Bill Cosby wants to mentor me. And you show up here. You`re going to do a line reading and then in many cases they said that their drinks were drugged, and they woke up naked or during a rape. And so just those stories, but also the way that the women thought about what happened to them. A lot of these incidents happened in the `60s and `70s, particularly, when there literally was not the vocabulary to talk about what had happened to them. Date rape had not been coined. No one knew what an acquaintance rape was. They just felt horrible about what had happened. Many of them blame themselves. They told people but they never even thought of coming forward, because they didn`t think of it as rape, they thought about it as, you know, a night gone very, very badly with a famous guy. HAYES: You do a good job drawing it out in the article about in some ways shifting moral norms and shifting conceptions for the better. I mean, one of the weird -- this is such a dark story. So dark. It`s just unspeakably dark in many ways. MALONE: I know. HAYES: The kind of -- in some ways the hopeful silver ling here, is that like we now unambiguously understand this -- if it happened, again, as alleged by 35 different people as rape. MALONE: Even President Obama said it. HAYES: Even the president said it -- I mean, as just a statement of fac, which even at the moment sort of struck you as like it`s weird that we have to say that, but when I read your piece and when I read some of the interviews where people said I felt horrible and traumatized and violated, but I didn`t know what had happened in any kind of like strict legal or conceptual sense. MALONE: Right. There is one woman who, her daughter was raped when she was a teenager. Her daughter, I think, is 28 or 29 now. She said her daughter just had a totally different way of dealing with it. She talked about it. She talked to anyone she could make listen about it. And she said that she learned a lot from her daughter. And that was another interesting thing in this article. I felt these women who are older, the youngest that we interviewed is in her 40s. But I really felt like they had -- the culture has changed around rape activism has really changed, largely thanks -- especially in recent years, to campus activism. And I feel like these women were looking to some of those lessons from these younger women especially about how to use social media, how to sort of band together. HAYES: On this point of social media, there is this debate about the ways in which social media can be a mob. It can shame people and sometimes for really silly things. But this also struck me as like the other side of it, which is like there is a public shaming and there are survivors who talk about the strength of social media -- a public shaming that has been done through social media that was blocked before. MALONE: Right. Yeah, one of the women said, you know, even in 2005 which is when Andrea Constan (ph), you know, pursued legal action with Bill Cosby, it was shut down. HAYES: It was on The Today Show and then it was. MALONE: Well, and people -- you know, there were a bunch of articles that sort of implicitly implied, oh, these women are, you know, out to make a quick buck. And that has not the reaction this time around. I think people really want to listen to these women now. HAYES: All right, Noreen Malone, New York Magazine. It`s their cover story. And it`s also a reminder, I grew up in magazine journalism. And magazines are great things. And what a great magazine feature, great magazine cover can do. It`s really an excellent piece of work. So, thank you to everyone there. MALONE: If you go buy it in print, keep magazines alive. HAYES: You could go buy it in print and give them the -- and they give you the -- that is All In for this evening. The Rachel Maddow Show starts right now. Good evening, Rachel. END THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED. END