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All In with Chris Hayes, Transcript 06/10/15

Guests: Jordan Gray, Maurice Gray, Deray McKesson, Zalmay Khalilzad, SekouSmith, A.J. Delgado

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST (voice-over): Tonight on ALL IN -- JANE BISHKIN, ATTY FOR ERIC CASEBOLT: With all that happened that day, he allowed his emotions to get the better of him. HAYES: A surprising message of regret from the attorney of Officer Casebolt, as the backlash to the backlash continues in McKinney. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You should just admit that. You`re a race pimp. HAYES: We`ll go live to Texas for the latest. Plus, as the White House announces 450 new advisers in Iraq, why shouldn`t we just bring all our troops home? Then, why the attacks on Marco Rubio and his $80,000 speedboat seem a little unfair. And statistical proof that what LeBron James is doing in the NBA finals might make him the greatest of all time. LEBRON JAMES, CLEVELAND CAVALIER: I`m not too much worried about the game. I`m worried about the moment. HAYES: ALL IN starts right now. (END VIDEOTAPE) HAYES: Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes. Reaction and repercussions, the police actions surrounding a teenage pool party arrive today from the police officer who has now resigned, and the 15-year-old girl who he shoved to the ground, both responding today through their attorneys. According to his lawyer, Eric Casebolt, the now former McKinney police officer, had already made service calls in an incident involving suicide and another involving a person threatening suicide before he ever got to the pool party. The stress of that day contributed to his inappropriate actions in this video. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) BISHKIN: His efforts to gather information was hampered by some teenagers who were instructing others to defy police instructions. With all that had happened that day, he allowed his emotions to get the better of him. Eric regrets that his conduct portrayed him and his department in a negative light. He never intended to mistreat anyone, but was only reacting to a situation and the challenges that it presented. He apologizes to all who are offended. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: The president of the McKinney Fraternal Order of Police, Daniel Malenfant, today said he was both satisfied and distressed by the public`s reaction to the video. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) DANIEL MALENFANT, MCKINNEY FRATERNAL ORDER OF POLICE: The McKinney FOP and Eric are extremely grateful for the outpouring of support that he has received from the McKinney community as well as from citizens across the country. Unfortunately, this positive show of support has and will always be overshadowed by hatred and those set on creating racial tensions in America. This includes the countless death threat calls and e-mails being received that are not being conveyed to the public. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: Finally today, the lawyer for Dajerria Becton, the 15-year-old girl forcibly shoved to the ground by Corporal Casebolt responded to those assertions, as well as recapping from her client`s perspective the incident that`s now sparked national attention. (BEGIN VIDOE CLIP) HANNAH STROUD, ATTY. FOR BECTON FAMILY: In the same way we wouldn`t condone assault against a 15-year-old, we could not condone assault or aggression against a police officer or his family. Miss Becton attended a pool party to which she was invited, not trespassing in any way, shape or form. She left the scene when asked to by the police officer, but when she asked for her bag so she could call for her aunt, who`s the legal guardian, she was pushed to the ground, grabbed by her head and face shoved into the ground. There are appropriate ways to handle stress and Officer Casebolt`s actions were clearly in no way appropriate. And I also do not provide a defense for what occurred. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: According to her lawyer, Dajerria Becton`s family has not made a decision about pursuing civil action or pressing for a criminal complaint against Corporal Casebolt and has thus far found the response from the McKinney police department to the video appropriate. Joining me now, MSNBC national reporter, Joy Reid, whose on both of those news conferences earlier today. Joy, your reaction to the Casebolt attorney which was surprising to me insofar as there was at least some expression of regret about what happened, which often in the wake of these cases you just get complete denial that anything went wrong. JOY REID, MSNBC NATIONAL REPORTER: Yes. You also do have to wonder, Chris, you know, any, you know, very specific statements of regret or statements of recriminations about his own actions, you know. You have to remember he has potential legal consequences that are still potentially ahead of him because it is an open question whether he could in fact face any charges in relation to what happened. But, yes, you did have a sort of oblique and broad statement of apology to any and all who were offended. There was a redirect from one of the members of the press corps in which they asked does that include Dajerria Becton, the 15-year-old girl who we saw being manhandled on the tape and the lawyer said, yes, and said that this former officer regrets that his actions reflected poorly on the department. And so, I think what we had on the one hand in that press conference was a real attempt at mitigation, of trying to explain in advance sort of the circumstances leading up to the event. Not really a defense of the specifics of what was done on the scene. It was really more about what happened before and psychological state where as you just played, in the second of those press conferences, the attorney for Dajerria Becton made it very clear -- sure, they`re sympathetic with the issues that may mitigate but it doesn`t excuse the fact that in her words, her client`s civil rights were violated. HAYES: Yes. And there is actually a lot of people talking about the possibility of some sort of assault charge against the officer in question. Though I did also find it interesting this that second press conference, the lawyer for Dajerria Becton said they found so far that the McKinney police department`s reactions appropriate. REID: They have found -- right. So I couldn`t quite exactly hear your question all the way, Chris, but I think what you heard from Dajerria Becton`s attorney was they haven`t made a decision what they want to do. But I think that they expressed, you know, they were glad to hear the expression of regret, they were glad to hear the mitigation, she expressed some sympathy, personal sympathy for the officer and what he was describing as some of the psychological conditions. But the attorney for Dajerria Becton was very firm and saying that this really does not go to the substance of what they are saying, which is that this is about this young woman`s civil rights. I think that that is going to be the bottom line in their deciding what to do next. HAYES: All right. Joy Reid, thank you very much. Joining me now: Jordan Gray, who attended that pool party, and his father, Maurice Gray. Jordan, Mr. Gray, thank you for joining us. Jordan, can you tell me when the police first arrived on the scene there, was Officer Casebolt, he did stick out in terms of his aggressiveness or his behavior, compared to the other officers who are on the scene? JORDAN GRAY, ATTENDED POOL PARTY: Yes, he stuck out very -- he stuck out more than the other officers. The other officers were towards the kids, asking what is going on? And asking, please do not run away from the cops. But yet, this cop was going out of control. HAYES: So you immediately noticed he was -- he was being the most aggressive. Did you see him both throw Dajerria Becton to the ground and draw his weapon there? J. GRAY: Yes, I saw him draw his weapon. I was clearly in front of him when I was walking toward the car, when I was trying to get away. HAYES: What did you think when you saw -- first when you saw him throw Becton to the ground? What was going through your mind? J. GRAY: I felt concern for the little girl. HAYES: And when his weapon came out, what did you think? J. GRAY: I felt that maybe that he shouldn`t have done that, he could have had handled it a little better than drawing his weapon, or he could have asked one of the other officers to handle the problem, yet he proceeds to grab towards his gun. HAYES: Was the situation -- was the situation so chaotic that it warranted that level of aggression from this officer? J. GRAY: Excuse me, can you repeat the question? HAYES: Was the situation so out of control and so chaotic or threatening that the officer was behaving appropriately to have that much aggression? J. GRAY: No. It was no need for that much aggression at the situation at the situation. Everybody was sitting there calmly until the officer started running at the two young boys. HAYES: Mr. Gray, I`m sure you heard other folks defending the actions of the police. Also saying that the situation that precipitated the phone call to 911 was out of control, people were jumping the fence, they were intimidating people. What is your response to that? MAURICE GRAY, FATHER OF JORDAN: Well, on my wife`s behalf, she was there with the kids. She was there from the beginning until the end. And like she said, there was just a teenage party going on. Some kids, when they would get in the pool, as kids, just being teenagers, some was climbing the fence, but it was not out of control like, you know, like I guess -- without hearing the 911 calls, we can`t say how it was actually called in. HAYES: It was interesting to me to hear the officer in question`s lawyer today talk about having responded to these two calls previously, suicide and suicide attempt and being incredibly -- emotionally fraught and worn out at the moment he took the call. Does that change the way you perceive what happened, Mr. Gray? M. GRAY: Yes, I mean, they were saying that there was kids having sex at the pool, and smoking pot at the pool, but that was -- those words or whatever was called in, that was incorrect too. So, we don`t know what was right or wrong what was called in, so until you get the 911 call, you kind of -- you don`t know what was really called in. HAYES: Jordan, you hear that this officer who you saw acting this way, and throwing one of your friends to the ground, he had come from having what his lawyer describes as a pretty awful brutal day, does that change the way you perceive the way he acted? J. GRAY: No, that shouldn`t change anything. I feel if you felt you were emotionally intact at the moment, that you should have handled the situation even better knowing that you felt bad already, knowing you had had a bad day. HAYES: All right. Jordan and Maurice Gray, thank you, both. Appreciate it. M. GRAY: Thank you. J. GRAY: You`re welcome. HAYES: It has not taken long for some to rally to the cause of Corporal Casebolt, sometimes in the form of attacking those who protest what happened in McKinney, Texas. Joining me now, Deray McKesson, a police reform organizer who protests in Baltimore and Ferguson, who joined the protest in McKinney, Texas, this week, has been the object of some criticism in some quarters, including on FOX News for being a, quote, "professional protester". Deray, there are folks who -- there was a statement today by the FOP who said, talked about people sewing racial discord, essentially, I`m paraphrasing. That people looking to create racial discord where there is none. What`s your reaction to that? DERAY MCKESSON, POLICE REFORM ORGANIZER: Yes, that officer bypassed many young white people who were there and put his hands on many black young people. As the person who took the video said, he said, `I felt invisible," which allowed him to continue filming and the officer did nothing to him, but he put his -- the officer put his knees in the back of a young black girl in a bikini who posed no threat to her and he took his gun out to young men of color because he knew he could and knew he had the power to do it. It`s definitely racially coded. McKinney is a place refusing to acknowledge the injustice that exists around racism. In today`s press conference is just another glaring example of the work that lies ahead. HAYES: But there are folks in McKinney, and people that Joy had been talking to, both black and white, who say, actually, you know, race relations here are good, we get a long here, we moved here to this community away from places where we had worst race relation, and you, Deray, are an outside agitator who`s coming in here to stir things up and find problems where there are none. MCKESSON: Yes, you know, I`m there because injustice is there, right? Just like King said. I was there because of that. The officer acted in a way that was inappropriate for an officer to act and we can`t continue to believe that racism only exists at the extreme, the N word and lynching. That was an act there too. He escalated the situation, because he had the power to do it and he wanted the control -- control not only the situation, but also their bodies that posed no threat to him. HAYES: I want to play you this exchange you had on Sean Hannity. I believe it was last night. Take a listen, get your reaction. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SEAN HANNITY, FOX NEWS: Is this what you do for a living? You want to set up 501c3 tax-exempt organization? Is this your profession now? MCKESSON: You know, I`m somebody who`s focused on justice. Is this a question you`re asking me because I`m a person of color? Would you ask white people this, too? HANNITY: Have you been part of any of the rioting? Have you been a part of any of the looting, right? MCKESSON: I`ve actually not seen any rioting at all, so, no. HANNITY: You haven`t seen it? I`ve got the video if you would like to look in your monitor, I`ll show it to you, sir. A lot of minority store owners lost their entire life possessions. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: I`m sort of fascinated by the idea there is something insidious about a, quote, "professional protester". What exactly do you understand is the critique there? MCKESSON: You know, I think people are afraid when black people organize. And that`s what we see. The reality is that people organize as part of their profession all across the country, across a host of issues. When black people organize, it becomes an insidious thing to some people. And that`s the only thing I can offer up to make sense of that critique that`s coming. The reality is the police are killing people. And people are responding to the fact that the police have killed 500 people this year alone. HAYES: Is that the case, though? I mean, what is striking to me about what has developed in the wake of Mike Brown`s death is the fact that the activist infrastructure has been created, plus the addition of cell phone video means that there are protests now around incidents that probably wouldn`t have happened before and not necessarily because the problem is getting worse, but because it has become visible and people have become activated around it. Or do you think the problem is getting worse? MCKESSON: I think you`re exactly right. We have been telling the truth about police violence our entire lives. The only thing that`s difference now is the truth is becoming mainstream, because of Twitter, because of Vine, because of cell phone videos. And people are mobilizing. People are realizing that this is actually much closer to them, that there is a Ferguson in their town too, right? That there`s a Mike Brown in their town, too. So, people are just realizing it is closer to them now. HAYES: Let me ask you this. You and I have talked off air a few times, met you a few times. You sort of strike me as a very compassionate and charitable individual. And I wonder when you heard the attorney today talking about this officer`s previous two calls, that there`s a suicide, a suicide that he had talked a woman out of, that he was essentially like emotionally wrung out at that moment, does that -- does that change the view this at? Does that do something to you in terms of how you perceive what happened there? MCKESSON: If anything, it confirms this idea that he actually should not have been an officer at all. That if the had emotional trauma that he needed to work through, that he should never have been in a position where he could have taken someone`s life, which is a position he was in when he drew his gun. So, if anything, it, like, I`m recommitted to this notion that we need to figure out the standards for what policing is and how to deal with their emotional trauma. HAYES: All right. Deray McKesson, thank you very much. They say the two best days in a boat owner`s life are the day you buy the boat and the day you sell the boat. You heard that here first. And then there`s the day "The New York Times" beats you up for buying the boat. We`ll find out where that day ranked for Marco Rubio, ahead. Plus, new grist for the chemtrail conspiracy theorists courtesy of the EPA. And a new feature on the show, the GOAT, as in the greatest of all time. Tonight, I`ll tell you about the man making history this week. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HAYES: There have been two troubling and possibly linked mysteries unfolding in Baltimore since the death of Freddie Gray and a protests and unrests that followed. On the one hand, a major spike in homicides, 42 in May, making it the deadliest month there since 1972. On the other hand, a steep drop in arrests over the same period -- so steep, it led many to question if police are intentionally staging a work slowdown in retaliation against the protests. When I asked former Baltimore police officer Peter Moskos about it last week, he offered a different explanation. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) PETER MOSKOS, FORMER BALTIMORE POLICE OFFICER: You have police that are stretched too thin, they simply can`t respond to calls for service except en masse, because they`re gets crowded by people who come out -- before one cop could handle a routine call and now there are four or five. So, you just don`t have proactive policing anymore in Baltimore. You don`t have drug corner -- you have cops who aren`t willing to go hands on and frisk suspects and you have fewer arrests. But that is -- it`s a lack of resources. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: Now, we may finally have an answer to the mystery. Two anonymous Baltimore cops say they`re on the force admitted in an interview they stopped proactive policing. (BEGIN VIDEOI CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think the public really, really sees that they actually are softer, less aggressive police department. And we have given them that. And now they`re realizing their way of thinking does not work. Proactive self-initiated policing has stopped. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re now in a reactive mode. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re in a total reactive mode. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And this is the result that you get. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: Now, there is lots of ways you can interpret that, of course. But one way that imagine many people in Baltimore hear it is something like this, you indicted our officers for the death of Freddie Gray and now this, this is what you get. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HAYES: Today, President Obama authorized the deployment of up to 450 American troops to Iraq to train and assist Iraqi forces fighting ISIS. Those new troops are in addition to the more than 3,000 U.S. troops already in Iraq. The announcement has unleashed a by now predictable chorus of criticism from the president`s congressional opponents who say he lacks a strategy for Iraq. In statement today, Senator John McCain said, "I remain deeply concerned this new deployment is disconnected from any coherent strategy to defeat ISIL." Senator John Cornyn tweeted, what is the strategy? Congressman Darrell Issa wrote an entire op-ed on the administration`s mix messages regarding its strategic approach against ISIS. Yet, remarkably at the same time, both the House and the Senate have refused to vote on the White House`s draft for an authorization to use military force to fight ISIS in Iraq and Syria four months after it was sent to them, almost nine months after the U.S. started launching air strikes against a group in Syria. They have also, and this is important, declined to offer their own alternative AUMF. And Boehner himself hasn`t allowed for the committee process to even move forward on crafting one. Today, when asked why congressional Republicans don`t offer their own strategy, Boehner deflected. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) REP. JOHN BOEHNER (R-OH), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: The authorization of the use of military force should be designed around the strategy that the administration believes is necessary in order to win. We don`t have a strategy and you can`t have an authorization of these military force and you don`t know what the strategy is. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: Joining me now, Ambassador Zalmay Khalilzad who served as both the U.S. ambassador to Iraq and Afghanistan under President George W. Bush. Ambassador, I want to -- I want to have -- talk this out with you. ZALMAY KHALILZAD, FORMER AMBASSADOR TO IRAQ: Please? HAYES: I want you to try to convince me away from a certain position, not one that I necessarily adhere to, but persuades in certain ways, which is, why don`t we just completely withdraw, get everybody out, get Americans entirely out of Iraq? Our record there is absolutely terrible. Over 30 years, we have done nothing to actually help Iraqis. We have made their lives demonstrably worse. Many have died because of what we have done and we need to get out. And as horrible as what might be -- might happen after we leave, there is no reason to suspect that our continued or escalating involvement will make things better for them. KHALILZAD: Well, if we could build a wall around Iraq, and let the Iraqis work it out among themselves, I could be sympathetic to your argument, to the point of view. And fortunately, we can`t do that. There are -- with regard to ISIS, you`ve got Europeans and Americans joining, and the ISIS talks about attacking the United States, attacking Europe. You have the Iranians there, supporting the militias. You`ve got the Saudis and the Turks involved. And the area is close to the world`s biggest oil resources. So, given terrorism, given the economy, given Iran, it`s difficult to completely get out without running significant risks. HAYES: Right. KHALILZAD: Now that it is very easy to deal with it, as your comment points out. HAYES: Let`s take those in turn. There is the fact that many international players are active in Iraq, including regimes we view as rivals or enemies, and particularly Iran and what they`re doing in terms of their support for Shia militias there. But the argument that other people are active there means we have to be, that doesn`t strike me as particularly persuasive. They may be making mistake or they may have interests different than ours. On the second front of terrorism, the idea that we are increasing our risk to terrorism or increasing the threat of a terrorist attack against us by withdrawing seems plausible. You might get a situation like the Taliban, right, before 9/11. But it also seems plausible that escalating military involve, bombing ISIS, also produces its own risk that we become greater targets. KHALILZAD: Well, you`re right, that bombing alone will not be the answer. You`re right that if you bomb them, but they survive, and they prosper even or become stronger, that that anger, resentment and in any case they`re hostile to us, we were not in Afghanistan, al Qaeda and the Taliban were there, were hostile to us. But if we do not do anything, doesn`t mean they will not come after us. So, the question is what is the lasting solution to this problem? Bombing alone is not the answer. You need an arrangement in Iraq involving mostly the locals, the Iraqis, Shia, Sunni and Kurds and regional players, Iran, Saudi Arabia and Turkey that can produce a lasting solution. What we`re doing in my view is not to destroy ISIS as such in a short time, but to contain it while these other factors hopefully and I advocate stronger diplomacy to bring these other factors to bear to get a lasting settlement. HAYES: But you have just enunciated is something I`ve heard from a number of people and other experts in the region, who basically talk about that, trying to create some genuine sort of multiethnic and multi-sectarian pluralistic state that can hold together. But that also just seems to me so far from a reality that -- and the idea that we`re going to have some military solution that gets us there, I have to say I remain pretty un- persuaded that that is anywhere on the horizon. KHALILZAD: Well, you`re right to be skeptical, but the alternative to your skepticism isn`t that if we disengage and did nothing, everything will go in the right direction. I think things could get a lot worse, in particular regarding targeting us and our allies and our interest. What I think is important, besides the locals that you point out to get together in a multiethnic, multi-sectarian politics, now it`s the region that is more important than we are. It is the Iranians, the Turks, the Saudis that are important. And that`s where we could -- bombing as I said is not the answer. It is part of the answer. It is containing to bring diplomacy and regional players together because without that, this problem will go on and we will have to be doing this for a very long time. HAYES: That`s the way it`s looking. Ambassador Zalmay Khalilzad, thanks for joining me. Up next, disturbing new evidence in the fatal police shooting of a man carrying a pellet gun and the heartache of the 911 caller who alerted the police. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I made the call, doing the right thing. (INAUDIBLE) I felt like (EXPLETIVE DELETED). Now, he comes in and they shoot him. How do I feel? (EXPLETIVE DELETED). You know? I feel like if I hadn`t called them, it wouldn`t have happened. (END VIDEO CLIP) (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HAYES: Disturbing new evidence appears to contradict multiple police accounts in the fatal shooting of a man carrying an unloaded air rifle. In July 2013, Broward County sheriff`s deputy Peter Peraza fatally shot 33 year old Jermaine McBean after three people called 911 to report a man walking out of a pawnshop through an apartment complex with a rifle. Now, Peraza says he feared for his life and believed that McBean was about to start shooting. It turned out what McBean was carrying was an unloaded air rifle. And at the time, Peraza said McBean ignored orders to drop what he was carrying and there was nothing obstructing his hearing. A homicide detective working on the case corroborated those claims in an email to the family, which was obtained by NBC News. I`m quoting here, "the deputies who were on scene when the shooting occurred confirmed he did not have anything in his ear. The phone and ear piece were later found in his pocket at the hospital. Now, nearly two years later, a photo has emerged calling those claims by authorities into question. Ronan Farrow, working with the NBC News investigative unit went to Florida to find out more. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) JENNIFER YOUNG, JERMAINE MCBEAN`S MOTHER: We talk every day. And I`ll see him at least once a week. But the night before he died, we spoke and it was such a shock the next day to realize that I`m not going to see him again. RONAN FARROW, NBC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Jennifer Young`s son Jermaine McBean was 33 years old. A well liked IT engineer with a masters degree in computer science. Everything changed one summer day in 2013 when Jermaine made a trip to a local pawnshop and walked out carrying an air rifle. Three people called 911, including Michael Russell McCarthy. OPERATOR: 911, what is your emergency? MICHAEL MCCARTHY, CALLER: Yeah, I`m on Dixie Highway just north of Commercial Boulevard. There is a guy walking around carrying a rifle. It looks like probably a .22 or pellet gun. FAROW: It was a pellet gun, a Winchester model 1,000 air rifle. Nonlethal and unloaded, something police officers didn`t know when they followed Jermaine McBean as he walked home to his apartment complex and fatally shot him. Police say McBean pointed the air rifle at them. Michael McCarthy tells a different story. Where was he holding the gun? MCCARTHY: Right here. FARROW: Right here. He was not pointing the gun at anyone? MCCARTHY: There`s no way. I got it right here. FARROW: At any point did Jermaine McBean point the gun at the officers? MCCARTHY: At any point he never pointed the gun at anyone. FARROW: The officer who fired those fatal shots says Jermaine McBean ignored police calls to drop the weapon and that nothing was obstructing his hearing. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was nothing in his ears to show he couldn`t have heard anything you said? PETER PERAZA, BROWARD COUNTY SHERIFF`S DEPUTY: No. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK, so when you approached him, did you see anything that would have obstructed his ability to hear? PERAZA: No. UNIDENITIFIED MALE: So there was nothing in his ears that you saw? PERAZA: No. FARROW: But a new photo is calling that claim into question. A nurse whose apartment directly overlooked the shooting took this picture of McBean`s body as it lay on the ground after the shooting. A picture that appears to show earbuds still in his ears. DAVID SCHOEL, MCBEAN FAMILY ATTORNEY: This is where Jermaine fell. FARROW: The family has retained a civil rights lawyer. SCHOEL: I think there is a cover-up in a number of areas. The headphones, the ear phones issue now is starting to come to light. FARROW: They filed suit against the police, hoping it will bring answers about what happened to Jermaine and why. The police recently responded saying, quote, it was Jermaine McBean`s conduct that is the sole cause of his alleged injuries and damages if any. YOUNG: I`m trying to understand what conduct that would have been because from the investigation, he was walking in his complex going home. ALFRED MCBEAN, JERMAINE MCBEAN`S BROTHER: It is a toy. It is an air rifle. He didn`t have it in any threatening way and in any manner. MCCARTHY: I made the call trying to think I was doing the right thing because if he went somewhere and shot people, I would feel like (EXPLETIVE DELETED). Now he comes in and they shoot him. How do I feel? Like (EXPLETIVE DELETED) you know? I feel like, you know, if I hadn`t called them, wouldn`t have happened. (END VIDEOTAPE) HAYES: That was the NBC News investigative unit and MSNBC`s Ronan Farrow reporting. Np next, how a boat is now at the center of one of the most heated disagreements in the world of politics. I will explain next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HAYES: Somehow much of the debate in the political world yesterday centered on this: a boat, specifically the Edgewater 245 CC which the manufacturer bills as great for both safety-minded family boaters and avid anglers. The debate centered on whether the 245 CC counts as a speedboat and whether it should be considered a, quote, luxury? And why you might ask would anyone care? Well, because of this guy, senator and republican presidential candidate Marco Rubio who reportedly bought such a boat after getting an $800,000 book advance back in 2012. The purchase of the boat was featured in a big New York Times article yesterday headlined "Marco Rubio`s career bedeviled by financial struggles," the thrust of which was, basically, Marco Rubio is no good with money. Rubio, quote, "splurged on an extravagant purchase, $80,000 for a luxury speedboat," The Times reported, which is what prompted yesterday`s very heated discussion over the precise definition of luxury speedboat. The Times story also detailed how Rubio used a state party credit card for personal expensive, put his relatives on campaign payrolls, prematurely liquidated a retirement account, maintained significant debt and little savings and spent heavily on, quote, luxury items. The story predictably kicked off a major backlash against The Times in part because it came on the heels of another Times piece criticizing Rubio and his wife for having gotten a combined, between the two of them, 17 traffic citations over 18 years, which most people didn`t think sounded so bad. Rubio himself only had four citations. Now, Rubio successfully fund-raised off the New York Times stories, casting himself as a relatable man of the people who struggled with student loans and asking supporters to, quote, help Marco fight back against the elitist liberals media. It was almost enough to make me wonder if the Florida senator has a plant at the paper of record churning out ostensible hit pieces really designed to make him look good. Joining me now, conservative Miami Herald columnist A.J. Delgado who unlike me thinks Rubio`s finances are very much a legitimate story. All right, I am in the -- I was basically found myself in strange company in the wake of this piece because I was basically in the this is a nothing burger and not just a nothing burger, a weirdly kind of snobby judgmental nothing burger in tone. You think it is legit? AJ DLEGADO, MIAMI HERALD: Yeah, we`re in the twilight zone on your defending Rubio and I`m criticizing him. But yeah I do think it`s completely legitimate. Listen, if somebody is running for the Republican Party nomination, which theoretically one of the tenets is fiscal responsibility of my party, right? Then we do have the right to ask questions and the natural question arises here, is are you a fiscally responsible person in your own life? And the answer seems to be with Rubio after you read that report, it is not just the New York Times, this has been written about previously, the answer seems to be no. And it is not about his student loans. I have student loans myself, same amount that he had, so that`s not the issue. I know his staff is trying to spin it into there are just, you know, it`s just elitism against someone with student loans who has struggled. That`s not it. It is purely coming down to whether he is good with managing money. You`re asking for the country to trust you in doing this, you have to show you`re able to do it in your own life. He`s not. HAYES: OK, there is a number of things here. But first, I think this is the key disagreement here, because it is an article of faith among conservatives and Republicans that there is this correlation between a household family budget and the federal budget. You heard it all the time, particularly in 2010, 2012, you know, we have got to tighten our belt just like a family budget in hard times. Folks like myself say, no, they had nothing to do with each other. You don`t manage a federal budget the way you manage your household budget. You can`t print money in your household budget. Ergo, whether he wants to buy a boat or not doesn`t strike me as relevant about where he`s going to be... DELGADO; Fair enough. HAYES: ...defense spending or sequester. DELGADO; Let`s go with that. Let`s go with theoretically you could be a terrible money manager in your household but you would be awesome at balancing the national budget. OK. The point is still it goes to the man`s intelligence. I want an intelligent president. I want our nominee to be an intelligent man. If you have this kind of mismanagement in your own household budget and your own finances for years what does that tell me about your intelligence? And it was in The Times piece that you mentioned there is also an issue about what do we know about your ethics? Because the PAC spending and the credit card that he was mixing his personal expenses and putting those on to the GOP credit card, there is also an ethics issue here. And yesterday we were all so caught up talking about the boat, we weren`t talking about the ethical issues that were brought up in the piece as well. HAYES: So, that is the best point. Let me just say also in terms of the relationship between managing your money and intelligence, I think that`s pretty dubious. F. Scott Fitzgerald was a pretty smart guy and his household finances were a disaster as were many, many, many people. But I think you make a good point, actually, because part of what is, I think misleading about The Times article is there is a bunch of stuff packaged together, some of which is he sold his house for less than he paid for it. Well, yeah, welcome to America after the big housing crisis, right. The other is he was putting personal expenses on a party credit card, which is -- you can`t do that. Like that actually seems to me more legitimate. And then there is also the idea that he has got this billionaire patron who is, you know, who is there and who is kind of, you know, helping him out financially in various ways and you think about the Bob McDonnell example in which there is a family that seemed to be kind of struggling financially to keep up and keep up appearances who ended up going to this wealthy businessman who then wants favors, that seems to me a legitimate thing to be sort of anxious about. DELGADO: And I think even if you`re not anxious about it, Braman is a huge figure in Miami. He`s very well liked. I`m a big fan of his. Even if you believe it was just -- there will be no quid pro quo here, the issue is when you trying to come across as this relatable every man type of guy - - I`m just this little guy and The New York Times is picking on me because they`re elitist, you`re not an everyday ordinary guy. When I need a job like Rubio did, I need more income, I don`t have this billionaire patron that can call that will go and fund an FIU professorship for me to have extra income. That`s -- he`s trying to be both this guy that has all these connections and he really does benefit from them and also be this little guy that I`m just like you. You`re not just like me. You`re not like most Americans, actually. So you really can`t have it both ways. HAYES: A.J. Delgado who insisted to our bookers that we send a boat to bring her to the studio tonight, thank you very much. Coming up, are the white contrails in the sky created by jets flying overhead actually filled with dangerous chemicals designed by the government to control the population? You`ll have to stay tuned to find out. Although I`ll tell you this much, no, they are not. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) ALEX JONES: The UN says if you don`t play ball with them, they`ll just spray you and shut down your weather. This is about genocide and population reduction. What they admit they`re spraying is brain damaging the population, there`s neurological disorders go off the charts. As the honey bees die, you name it. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: If you spend any time in the corners of the media world devoted to conspiracy theories, you are bound to encounter the concept of chem trails. It even occasionally pops into the mainstream, as in this tweet from reality star Kylie Jenner asking about, quote, planes spraying white stuff into the sky and what nefarious things they might be up to. It probably surprise you to learn that chem trails aren`t, you know, real. While you can often see a white mist coming off the back of a plane, those are contrails, short for condensation trails and they are basically small clouds that form when jet exhaust comes in contact with the atmosphere. They are water. So contrails are real and harmless whereas chem trails are fake, although if you believe conspiracy theorists very bad news. Nice graphic there guys. Enter the Environmental Protection Agency which today announced it is moving toward regulating aircraft emissions. Wait, what? Is it possible the EPA is finally admitting Kylie Jenner and Alex Jones are right about chem trails? Do we owe Alex Jones an apology? Was he offering prescient warnings this whole time? No. No, no. Not at all. The EPA wants to regulate carbon dioxide emissions, which are exhaust, not chem trails. Now the EPA even put out a fact sheet debunking the concept of chem trails. In March, though, like this latest announcement, it likely only helped fuel the certainty of conspiracy theories as articulated in a video posted just today to YouTube. (BEGIN VIDE OCLIP) UNIDENITFIED MALE: People just do not want to admit chem trails are real. But I think you`re going to have to start admitting it, everyone. It`s starting to become a little too obvious. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: The good news, as it were, is that chem trails are for most part too crazy for even the paranoid fringes of our electoral politics, although some politicians have indulged the conspiracists. Arizona State Senator Kelly Ward last summer presided over a discussion of chem trails, which she said was in response to constituent concerns. She told the Arizona Republic she doesn`t, quote, really have any opinions about chem trails one way or the other, sort of a teach the controversy opinion. Ward has been building buzz as a possible Republican primary foe to Senator John McCain, but there is already speculation McCain is going to, quote, call her Chem Trail Kelly. So in summation, it turns out there is one way -- very concrete way chem trails can hurt you, by scaring off potential donors for a senate run. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HAYES: Allow me to lay out the case that Lebron James is on the cusp of the greatest performance in NBA finals history. Since 1985, all right, if you look at single game playoff performances in which a player has attempted at least 34 shots, ten free throws, played at least 44 minutes, which is four minutes shy of playing an entire regulation game, and had at least six assists, there have only been five times in which this has happened. First time was Michael Jordan in 1986. The next time was with Lebron James, which happened last Thursday. The time after that was also with Lebron, which happened last night. Then there was the time Lebron did it this past Sunday and the fifth and final time it happened was with, you guessed it, Lebron James in the playoff series against The Hawks last month. In the first three games of the finals, Lebron has scored more points, 123, than anyone else the first three games of the finals ever. He leads all players in the playoffs in minutes played, shots made and assists. In addition to those categories, he leads his own team in points, rebounds and steals. So, go ahead, haters, be irrational, figure out a reason to root against him. But right now he is carrying his team in a way that perhaps no other player could. And he`s two wins away from being a step closer to becoming, dare I say it, as a Bulls fan, the greatest of all time. Joining me now, Sekou Smith from who is in Cleveland tonight. I got to say, Sekou, when you look at the numbers, when you look at the numbers and you look at what is happening in front of you, it is hard to not think you are watching what could be the greatest final performance ever. SEKOU SMITH, NBA.COM: Oh, I don`t think there is any doubt, Chris, that this is the makings of being if not the greatest, certainly one of the greatest. And, well, Lebron James is doing this, not just making a couple of guys better, he`s made an entire roster better. And very few guys in the history of this game have done that. Magic Johnson certainly, you know, lifted up the players around him. Michael Jordan did it in a similar fashion. But the way Lebron does it on both ends and with every fiber of his being is truly remarkable to watch. HAYES: You know, there is criticism of him for his efficiency, his field goal percentage is pretty low. He`s taking a lot of shots. He is missing a lot of shots and the kind of -- the knock on Lebron of the Lebron haters, which is a whole kind of universe of people online, is that he`s a much less efficient scorer than, say, I think, the person most think of the greatest of all time, Michael Jordan. What do you think of that? SMITH: I think, you know in this culture we have to find something to nitpick. He went seven straight years in proving his efficiency, seven straight, the best player on the planet, and improving every year. If he wants to take a year off from worrying about his efficiency rating and winning a championship, I don`t think anybody is going to care. HAYES: Let me show you this chart. Because when you start running the numbers, this is him -- since 1984, 1985, stacking up against others on essentially the percentage of shots that they are -- the percentage of the baskets that they are scoring field goals or assisting on, and you see up at the top there`s one person who just sticks out way, way ahead at 66 percent. There`s nothing even in the ballpark, there is no one who has ever gotten this far as single-handedly running things as Lebron is right now having lost the two other best players on the team. It is like him and four people that he picked up at a pickup game are now on the precipice of winning the NBA finals. SMITH: Yeah. It is stunning, you know. There is another stat that I love, the Cleveland Cavaliers are shooting 49.3% on passes, you know, when they make a field goal on passes from Lebron James. That means every time the ball leaves his hand to one of his teammates, there is a 50 percent chance the ball is going in the basket. That`s insane. He`s a guy that we have never seen before in terms of his size and his skill level and he`s doing things that as the stats show, very few people have ever done in this game. He`s going to have haters forever. But you can`t deny his greatness. You can`t deny his place as the greatest player of his generation. And I think we would be foolish not to enjoy it while it is going on. HAYES: That I agree with. Don`t you think, though -- I feel like the haters of Lebron are diminishing, and I think in this classic sort of three-act drama, when the second act was the I`m taking my talents to South Beach. He goes to the dark side, he plays in all black for the Miami heat and they win, and people love to hate that team, comes back, local boy made good, loses the two best players. He`s playing with four people who should never be in the NBA finals, that in some ways people are rooting for him. SMITH: There are a lot of people rooting for him. I mean, and you would be surprised at how many people here in Cleveland have forgiven, not forgotten, but certain forgiven the way he departed. If you win a championship here, a 51 year drought, let me tell you something, he won`t have to worry about anybody hating him anymore. HAYES: Yeah, one of the best stories of all time. Sekou Smith, thanks for joining us. That is All In for this evening. The Rachel Maddow show starts now. THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED. END