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All In with Chris Hayes, Transcript 06/05/15

Guests: John Stanton, Charles Pierce, Jennifer Granholm, Glenn Greenwald,Erin Gloria Ryan, Christopher John Farley, Jason Bailey

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST (voice-over): Tonight on ALL IN -- JOLENE BURDGE, SISTER OF STEVE REINBOLDT: He damaged Steve I think more than any of us will ever know. HAYES: Explosive new charges against the man who led Republicans in the House. Tonight, what we know about today`s new allegations against Dennis Hastert. Then, Hillary Clinton calls out Republican candidates for restricting voting. Today, the governors strike back. RICK PERRY (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: She just went into my home state and dissed every person who supports having an identification. HAYES: Plus, an angry military father confronted Senator Tom Cotton. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When do I get my kids to come home safe again? HAYES: And all in the movies. MELISSA MCCARTHY, ACTRESS: I said, you know, would you do that to a man? HAYES: Why this weekend could be Melissa McCarthy`s best yet. MCCARTHY: Can you imagine me as a spy? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: With a gun! HAYES: ALL IN starts now. (END VIDEOTAPE) HAYES: Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes. Dennis Hastert, the longest serving Republican speaker in the House in U.S. history, a man for eight years was third in line to the president, is now facing specific public allegations of sexual abuse of a minor. Allegations concern Steven Reinboldt, who attended Yorkville High School in Illinois where Hastert was a teacher and wrestling coach from 1975 to 1981. Reinboldt was manager of the wrestling team. Tonight, a friend of a classmate of Reinboldt who asked to have his identity concealed tells NBC News that Reinboldt told him in 1974 about sexual contact with Hastert that occurred while Reinboldt was still a student. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He started to talk about his relationship with Denny Hastert and told me that they had been sexual and I was flabbergasted. I said, what do you mean? And he said, well, we would do things sexually and it would sometimes start with a massage. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: Reinboldt`s sister, Jolene Burdge, said in an emotional interview with ABC News this morning that Reinboldt told her that Hastert sexually abused him throughout his high school years. She said she first learned of the alleged abuse when Reinboldt told her he was gay eight years after his high school graduation. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) BURDGE: I asked him, "Stevie, when was your first same-sex experience?" I mean, he just looked at me and said, "It was with Dennis Hastert." And I just -- I know I was stunned. I said, "Why didn`t you ever tell anybody, Stevie? I mean, he was your teacher? Why don`t you ever tell anybody?" He just looked at me and said, "Who is ever going to believe me? In this town, who is ever going to believe me?" (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: Reinboldt died of AIDS in 1995. His sister says she confronted Hastert when Hastert showed up at her brother`s funeral. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) BURDGE: I just looked at him and I said, "I want to know what you did to my brother?" He just stood there and stared at me. And I just continued to say, "I want you to know that your secret didn`t die with my brother and I want you to remember that I`m out here and that I know." (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: Burdge told news outlets about Hastert`s alleged abuse of her brother in 2006 when Hastert was speaker of the House. And when a scandal that broke involving Florida Congressman Mark Foley who sent sexually explicit messages to former House pages, but she decided against going on the record with the allegations against Hastert at the time, and news outlets couldn`t corroborate the allegations so did not make them public. The identification of an alleged victim comes in the wake of a federal indictment against Hastert, announced last week, accusing the former speaker of structuring bank withdrawals to avoid federal reporting requirements and then lying to the FBI about his reason for doing so. The indictment says Hastert agreed to pay someone, identified only as individual "A," to quote compensate for and conceal Hastert`s prior misconduct against that person. It did not specify what that misconduct was. The federal law enforcement sources have told NBC News that Hastert was paying a man to keep him quiet about allegations of sexual misconduct while Hastert was a high school teacher. Authorities say Hastert had agreed in 2010 to pay that man, individual A, $3.5 million. Now, Burdge says she was interviewed last month by the FBI about Hastert`s alleged sexual abuse of her brother, but there`s unclear whether there`s any connection between individual A and the new allegations. Burdge says she has never asked Hastert for money and does not know who individual A is. Hastert is expected in court next week. NBC News has not independently confirmed the allegations against him and has made repeated attempts to reach Hastert without success. Joining me now, John Stanton, Washington bureau chief for "BuzzFeed News", who`s been on this story from the beginning. John, just -- my head is spinning a bit at this development. Your reaction? JOHN STANTON, BUZZFEED NEWS: Yes, you know, I think that this is -- it`s a little unclear, frankly, if this is -- if her brother is the other individual that we know of. We know at least one other person in the original indictment before it came out, and it also specified an individual "B", but the U.S. attorney decided to take that out, in part because of the request of Speaker Hastert`s attorneys, apparently. And so, it`s unclear if he is this person, if there are other people involved. We know that there are obviously multiple alleged victims and so -- and, you know, I mean, frankly, as someone who covered Denny Hastert for his -- most of his speakership, this whole thing has been kind of shocking. HAYES: That is shocking, I think is accurate and what you`re seeing now is, I mean, you got to understand, for folks watching at home, there are reporters from every outlet descending upon Yorkville, Illinois, as we speak. They are knocking on doors. They are combing through school records. They are going back through every list of students who were on that wrestling team who had Dennis Hastert as a teacher, right? That town is going to be in the midst of unprecedented amount of sort of investigatory work being done. And what`s surfaced so far is a lot of people, you know, who were on the wrestling team and students saying, you know, I am as shocked as anyone else. STANTON: Yes, I mean, I think, certainly the people in the town are that way. And folks like myself, that knew him when he was speaker are kind of stunned. You know, he almost sounds like that old saw about the guy that lives next door to the serial killer, he seemed like a nice guy, just quiet. And that`s kind of -- you know, certainly during his time on the Hill, that is what he was like. And definitely in Yorkville, he was a pillar of that community. And I think that may -- if these allegations are true, that may have been part of why it took so long for them to come out, because the victims felt like they just couldn`t tell anybody. That no one was going to believe them if they started raising these issues. HAYES: Now, am I correct, I`ve had -- have Hastert`s people or Hastert`s attorney issued any formal statement, any formal denial since all of this started? STANTON: No, they have not. They have not spoken to anyone at all, frankly, as far as I know, at least -- except for the authorities. HAYES: OK, I want to stipulate very firmly on the record here that a lack of denial is not an affirmation of the allegations. But just in terms of how these things normally play out, the silence from the Hastert camp is bizarre, to my estimation. I mean, I am somewhat surprised that there has been no forthcoming statement from them. STANTON: It has been surprising that he hasn`t said anything. You know, I think there`s been a huge amount of attention on this story. One would think that at this point, they would have made some sort of statement, you know, one way or the other, to try to at least mitigate some of the damage that`s going on. Although, you know, it seems like the damage was pretty well done at this point. You know, he left his lobbying shop, where he was the cornerstone of Dickstein Shapiro`s lobby operation at this point. And he was summarily dismissed or left. And he`s pretty much gone MIA now. So, you know, that`s sort of an odd thing for them to be doing. HAYES: What`s the next plot point here in terms of how this is going to progress? There`s a court date next week. Is that correct? STANTON: Yes, on Tuesday, he`s going to be arraigned. I think people are going to continue to try to dig into this, to find out who these other victims were, if there were more than reporters seem to already know about, if there were those in Washington, potentially. All my reporting on that has sort of indicated there were no victims in Washington. This did not go on while he was here. But, you know, who knows? I mean, again, he was the speaker of the House and he was a very well-respected member of Congress for, you know, two decades. And so there could be -- it could be a similar kind of situation as with Yorkville. If, again, if these allegations are true. HAYES: All right, John Stanton of "BuzzFeed" -- thank you very much. STANTON: Thank you. HAYES: Dennis Hastert was House speaker from 1999 to 2007, a period of which Republicans were pushing a number of cultural war issues. Hastert`s record on gay rights includes voting for the so-called Marriage Protection Act, which would have prevented the federal courts from striking down DOMA, supporting a constitutional amendment banning same-sex marriage, and voting against the Employment Nondiscrimination Act. Joining me now, Charlie Pierce, writer at large for "Esquire" magazine. Well, that is just one part of the craziness of this story. And, again, let`s just stipulate up-front, these are allegations. These are some of the most serious allegations a person could possibly face. And anyone on the side of the allegations is due process. CHARLES PIERCE, ESQUIRE: I hate stories where everything you say about them has to begin, if this thing is true. HAYES: Right, right. PIERCE: I hate that. That having been said, it is stunning to me, if true, that a town that size, a small town, nobody knew this was happening. I mean, usually in a town like that, everybody knows everything. HAYES: And that is the profundity of the secret here. I mean, if -- again, if the allegation particularly -- let`s just talk about the allegation made on the record, because I feel like that`s -- you know, someone coming forward and my brother`s told me this. That scene at the funeral, I mean, I can`t stop thinking about that scene at the funeral that she says happened. Again, we don`t know if it happens, she happens, in which she confronts him. And the idea that the combination of taboo and power could combine to keep this a secret for as long as it was kept. PIERCE: Again, presumably, that was a fairly good-sized funeral. I mean, as funerals go in a town like Yorkville. I`d like to have someone else who saw the encounter. I would like to -- HAYES: Yes. PIERCE: If that really happened, if she said to him, I`m out there, your secret is not safe, that would have gotten around time to me. I mean, at least in the small towns I`m aware of, that would have gotten aware, hey, you know, Steve`s sister braced Denny Hastert as they came out of the funeral. That`s a big event. HAYES: Yes, you covered some of the -- you wrote about some of the things that happened in the Catholic Church and particularly around Boston. PIERCE: Right. HAYES: I covered it in the book I wrote. And there was a place where secrets were kept for a very long time. Sometimes they were open secrets. Sometimes, it was "don`t go on that trip with father". Sometimes they were closed secrets. People really didn`t know. But they were -- they were capable of being kept for a very long time. PIERCE: Yes, but they were much more open within the parishes than this is. I mean, I haven`t seen one person from Yorkville who said, well, yes, we heard about this. Barney Frank said he had no idea. HAYES: Yes, he sat at this table and said, I would have heard something if there was something to hear. PIERCE: And this was the guy who threatened to out people when they were gay baiting Tom Foley back in the day. HAYES: Right. PIERCE: So, if anybody in Congress was going to know about this, it`s going to be Barney. And he said he had to idea. HAYES: And the other thing to think about is sort of the division of mind it would take to do your job and ascend to the place that Denny Hastert ascended while knowing this was in your past. I mean, to make the choice to enter public life and make a series of choices that keep pushing you higher and higher, in which you would, in some objective sense, be inviting more scrutiny. PIERCE: Well, that puts him in the Duggar household, doesn`t it? I mean, this is -- I mean, there`s -- in every human being, especially politicians and people who want to be on television -- HAYES: They`re the worst. PIERCE: There`s an overwhelming desire to get there. And it`s tragic when the secret -- you know, when you do this and know the secret`s there. And in this day and age, I mean, it`s almost impossible. HAYES: What do you think about this sort of looking back on the culture war being waged by this Congress back in that period? And again, you could even just -- you know, Hastert is one part of a bunch of people, from Livingston, Gingrich -- you know, people voting to impeach bill Clinton, telling people their marriages should be ripped up by the state, crusading all over the place on other people`s private lives. PIERCE: American politics center should have gotten into that. And the people who pushed it in deserve to go to political hell, basically. And in this, I include Bill Clinton for signing DOMA. That should have been eliminated from the national political dialogue, because right from the time that the so-called Christian right rose in the late 1970s, early 1980s, terrible, a terrible effect on civility, on our politics, on our national life. It just should have been kept out. Now, I don`t know if it was ever possible to do that, but I wish enough people had fought the temptation. HAYES: Yes, Charlie Pierce, always a pleasure. Hear to cover can race? PIERCE: Yes, I am. HAYES: Writing for Grantland? PIERCE: Yes, I`d be writing for Grantland on Monday. HAYES: All right. We`ll check it out. PIERCE: Take care. HAYES: Good to see you. Next, how many traffic tickets would it take to make you think less of presidential candidate Marco Rubio? Does it really matter? Coming up, Hillary Clinton, for the first time since declaring for the presidency, calls out her GOP rivals by name, because they have managed to get on the wrong side of voting rights, again. Ahead, and all in the movies as Melissa McCarthy crushes it and upend some boorish ideas about women in film. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) ALEX HANNA: In good times, your friends know who you are. When you`re in trouble, you know who your friends are. If you`ve been arrested for DUI, any criminal case, or received a traffic ticket and you need an attorney, call me, Alex Hanna. I`m the helping friend you need. Call me now. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: On his Web site, Miami-based lawyer Alex Hanna offers potential clients this advice. Have you received a traffic ticket? Don`t pay it! And according to a "New York Times" report published today, one person who has sought out Mr. Hanna`s expertise in navigating the world of Florida traffic violations is none other than Republican presidential hopeful Marco Rubio. The headline offering key details, Marco Rubio and his wife cited 17 times for traffic infractions. Now, let me say this was a downright bizarre use of "The Times`" reporting power, but according to court dockets reviewed by "The Times," those traffic infractions included speeding, driving through red lights, and careless driving. OK, here`s the thing, though. The 17 infractions, the headline number, are for the Rubio household. Marco Rubio, who is the person running for president, incurred four, just four traffic infractions, while his wife, Jeannette, who is, I would note, not running for president, acquired 13. Also, those 17 infractions were accumulated over not six months or a year, but the course of nearly two decades, dating back to 1997. I know people who get that many tickets in a summer. Naturally, "The Times" report was met with derision on Twitter, spawning the hashtag, #Rubiocrimespree, or other possible Rubio offenses were imagined, from Marco Rubio once ripped a tag from a mattress to order an eggnog at 11:03 a.m. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Here in Texas, former Governor Rick Perry signed a law that a federal court said was actually written with the purpose of discriminating against minority voters. In Wisconsin, Governor Scott Walker cut back early voting and signed legislation that would make it harder for college students to vote. In New Jersey, Governor Chris Christie vetoed legislation to extend early voting. And in Florida, when Jeb Bush was governor, state authorities conducted a deeply flawed purge of voters before the presidential election in 2000. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: Hillary Clinton`s Republican rivals for the White House are playing defense today after she called them out by name, for the first time in the campaign, in a fiery speech on voting rights. Laying out a strong agenda to expand access at the polls, Clinton effectively dared the GOP governors considering a presidential run to do the opposite. And everyone she named, with the exception of Jeb Bush, took the bait. Former Texas Governor Rick Perry, who officially announced his presidential candidacy yesterday, defended his state`s restrictive voter ID law. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) RICK PERRY (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I think it makes sense to have a photo ID to be able to vote. When I got on an airline to come up here yesterday, I had to show my photo ID. Now, Hillary Clinton may not have had to show an ID to get on an airplane in a long time -- UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s on a private jet. PERRY: But if she`ll fly commercial, you show that. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker said in a statement, "Hillary Clinton`s rejection of efforts to make it easier to vote and harder to cheat not only defies logic, but the will of majority Americans." While New Jersey Governor Chris Christie visiting New Hampshire today accused the former secretary of state of trying to commit voter fraud. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE (R), NEW JERSEY: Secretary Clinton doesn`t know the first thing about voting rights in New Jersey or in the other states that she attacked. And my sense is that she just wants an opportunity, you know, to commit greater acts of voter fraud around the country. So, you know, I`m not worried about her opinion. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: That`s a weird thing to say. Ohio Governor John Kasich, another potential 2016 candidate, whose state is one of two being sued by a lawyer affiliated with the Clinton campaign over their voting restrictions, well, he charged Hillary Clinton with playing cynical politics. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) GOV. JOHN KASICH (R), OHIO: What is she talking about? I like Hillary. But I got to tell you, the idea that we`re going to divide Americans and we`re going to use demagoguery, I don`t like it. Now, I haven`t said a word about Hillary. But to come into the state of Ohio and say we`re repressing the vote, when New York has only election day and we have 27 days, what`s she -- come on! That`s just silliness, you know? I`m disappointed in her, frankly. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: Joining me now, former Michigan governor, Jennifer Granholm, co-chair of the Democratic super PAC Priorities USA. I thought this was a fascinating bit of sort of political jujitsu, because my sense is that Republican governors want to pass these laws and not spend a ton of time talking about them. And this was a pretty bald faced attempt to draw them into actually talking about it. And it seems to have worked. JENNIFER GRANHOLM, PRIORITIES USA: It`s awesome. She, you know, a hit dog hollers, as they say. And these guys were hollering, because they know very well what they were up to. Every state that has adopted these laws since 2010, and there`s been 21 of them, it`s all been about picking your voters. And so, they want to pick the voters that are more likely to vote Republican. Everybody knows what`s going on. And I thought the best line in that whole speech -- I love the fact that she called them out by name. I love the fact that she was strong. But I love the fact that she said, what part of democracy are you afraid of? If you really want to argue on the merits, if you really want to have a mano-a-mano fight, let`s do it in a fair way. Do not pick and choose your voters. Let everybody at it. And we can fight, because Democrats will win on the ideas. HAYES: So, one of the responses I saw yesterday from a bunch of conservative commentators, and not just conservative commentators, was that this was essentially unnecessarily divisive or demagogic. Here`s FOX News, Hillary goes ugly early with racism claims. Hillary needs a faux war on voting rights. Hillary`s speech, good doses of race-baiting and federal overreach. What do you think about the idea that it`s either cynical or rankly self-interested for her to push this when she knows she`ll benefit from it? GRANHOLM: When all she`s saying is that every American should have the right to vote, every American, you know, the voting rights, the voting suppression laws that have been adopted, if the most serious ones are adopted, it suppresses votes between 8 to 12 percent. We know whose votes are suppressed. They are minority communities. They are African-American and Latino, they are women, they are students -- voters who are likely to vote Democratic. This is not about saying Republicans should not vote. This is about saying, everyone should vote. It is our constitutional right. And by the way, you know, I don`t think she`s saying, nobody should show IDs, it`s just that they`re picking the kind of narrow IDs that will benefit their side. So, in Texas, they`re saying that you can have the right to vote if you carry a concealed weapons permit, but you can haven`t the right to vote if you are a student and have a student ID. So, you are picking and choosing. I mean, people have had IDs at voting places a long time. But when you pick and choose narrow categories, that means you are selecting who is voting and that is what`s not American. That is what is really defying the intent of the Constitution. HAYES: You know, I was struck by Rick Perry`s comment, by needing a photo ID to fly. Obviously, flying is very different. It`s not a right, it`s not a fundamental right, it doesn`t appear in the Constitution, but the fact of the matter is, you don`t actually need an ID to fly. I have flown twice in my life when I lost my wallet for whatever reason. If you show up at an airport and you don`t have photo ID, they will put you through an alternate system in which you have additional scrutiny, but you can get on a plane and fly. And that`s a decent model, right? We can come up with -- GRANHOLM: A provisional ballot. HAYES: Exactly! GRANHOLM: That`s exactly what it is. I mean, you know, the irony about all of this or the terrible piece about all of this is that what you are essentially doing is equating the kinds of IDs that people -- I mean, if you have to go on a plane, you have some money, perhaps, you may have a passport, there are only about a third of Americans who even have a passport. There are certainly a lot of American who do not have driver`s licenses. So you are selecting IDs that are probably for people who have some means. That`s a generalization, obviously. But, you know, there are ways to be able to have access that does not require a full photo ID and there are ways to allow people who have forgotten their IDs to be able to have access to vote. I love the idea of universal registration. You go to other countries, people are born and they are voters, period. Why do they have this extra layer of bureaucracy of registration anyway? It`s a good question. But nonetheless, universal registration, at least, would fulfill the ultimate intent of the Constitution. HAYES: If I`m not mistaken, the 19th century urban reforms created voter registration, specifically because they were scared about all the immigrants that were rushing to the polls and wanted to keep them away. So, that`s the short historical answer I believe for why we have voter registration, which shows you something about its origin. Former Governor Jennifer Granholm -- GRANHOLM: Well, all I can say -- bottom line, keep on fighting, that`s what I say. HAYES: Thank you so much. GRANHOLM: A great issue. You bet. HAYES: All right. Coming up, Edward Snowden is back in the pages of "The New York Times." And Glenn Greenwald joins us. Ahead, who are the people who still love "Entourage" and will even they be disappointed by this oddly time cameo-laden movie version of bro- centric HBO series? And next, an unabashed hawk in Congress is asked the definitive question, when do I get my kids to come home safe again? (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HAYES: A roundtable discussion at Johns Hopkins University, Republican Senator Tom Cotton of Arkansas took the opportunity to criticize President Obama`s foreign policy, while heralding his own support for military escalation in the Middle East. The event took an emotional turn when Cotton fielded a question from a man sitting next to him. Fred Boenig`s son died in Afghanistan in 2010. He has three more children currently serving in the military and has become an anti-war activist. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) FRED BOENIG, SON DIED IN AFGHANISTAN: My name is Fred Boenig. I`m a gold star dad and have three more kids currently serving and I would consider you probably the biggest hawk in Washington, maybe Lindsey Graham, right -- I mean, you`d admit that, right? SEN. TOM COTTON, (R) ARKANSAS: I believe in strength and confidence. BOENIG: OK, we can use that that little term. And when I hear that term, when I hear you speak, all I hear is somebody knocking on my door again. And I only have one question to ask. Can you tell me how long it`s been since the last U.S. military combat zone death? Because that`s really what it`s all about, that`s about keeping us safe. Can you tell me how long it`s been? COTTON: Well, we`ve had Americans die in Afghanistan this year. I can`t tell you the exact time frame, though. I can tell you... BOENIG: It`s 58 days. And before that -- 58 days, it was the longest peter, and it was 116 days. And I also asked that question to Adam Kinzinger who didn`t know, another man who called himself a hawk. All I ever ask is the second question, since that`s not an important number to you, that, when do we get hang up the mission accomplished banner, and when do I get to get my kids get to come home safe again? That`s the only thing that matters to me. Can you please answer that question? COTTON: There`s no definite answer, because our enemies get a vote in this process. I`m deeply sorrowful for your loss and I greatly honor the service that all of your children have rendered, like all our veterans do. But in the end, I think the best way to honor our veterans is... BOENIG: Is this war to build? COTTON: Is to win the wars in which they fought. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: Following that exchange, Mr. Boenig noted that Senator Cotton, a veteran himself, eventually answered each of his questions, even though Mr. Boenig did not like the answers, telling Politico, quote, "he handled it the way I expected him to handle it. He`s a hawk. I`m a tree hugging, peace loving, gay wedding, you know whatever, I was a conservative my whole life, but it all changed." (COMMERCIAL BREAK) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) EDWARD SNOWDEN, NSA LEAKER: I am more willing to imprisonment or any other negative outcome personally than I am willing to risk the curtailment of my intellectual freedom and that of those around me whom I care for equally, as I do for myself. And, again, that`s not to say that I`m self-sacrificing, because it gives me -- I feel good in my human experience, to know that I can contribute to the good of others. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: The very first Edward Snowden leak, published exactly two years ago today, exposed for the first time to the public that the U.S. government is secretly collecting millions of Americans` phone records. A court order published by The Guardian and subsequent reporting revealed the NSA was collecting private phone records using a secret interpretation of part of the Patriot Act to justify it all. Now the entire operation seemed to be on very dubious legal grounds. It also directly contradicted statements made under oath by National Intelligence Director James Clapper, when he explicitly denied that the NSA collected data on millions of Americans. Politicians and pundits for the most part rushed to condemn Edward Snowden, who had fled the country. The U.S. government charged him with espionage. Since then, a federal court has ruled that the NSA`s system of collection of American`s phone records is in fact illegal, that it violates the constitution. This week, the senate passed and the president signed a law that put an end to the once secret bulk collection programs Snowden exposed, at least in the form that it took before. Snowden, who remains a fugitive in Russia to this day, took a victory lap in the pages of The New York Times, declaring, quote, "the world says no to surveillance." Joining me now, Glenn Greenwald, co-founding editor at The Intercept. Author of "No Place to Hide: Edward Snowden, the NSA and the U.S. Surveillance State." I think it`s pretty remarkable trajectory from two years ago, on this specific issue. This is the section 215 of the Patriot Act. This is the bulk collection, the so-called metadata, where you basically have the government come to the phone companies and saying, give us everything, which almost prima fascia seems the definition of a violation of the fourth amendment, the history of which was all about specific as opposed to general warrants. Here we are two years later. How much progress has been made on that front? GLENN GREENWALD, JOURNALIST: I think it depends on what your metric is. When we first began thinking about what the outcome might be of this debate, you know I never really looked to U.S. congress as the place where there`d be the greatest reform. I think you and I actually had a discussion about that a year ago or maybe a bit more where I talked about other players who are going to impose serious limits on what the NSA can do, other countries who were defending against it, tech companies that were embedding encryption in their products now, end-to-end encryption, individuals who are changing how they use the Internet to protect their privacy. And those things have been really serious limits no the NSA, but it`s also really good to see the congress ending this program, at least as it existed, not so much because that`s a really serious limit on what the NSA can do, but because I think it`s the first time since 9/11 that we`ve actually reversed course and where the rhetorical tropes about fearing terrorism and all those things that worked so well, actually failed for the first time and that`s what I think is the great significance. HAYES: What do you think Snowden`s future is? I mean, it`s been such a bizarre trajectory, in many ways, he was not trying to go to Russia, he was trying to find safe harbor somewhere else. There were discussions of Iceland, there was discussions of Ecuador. He essentially got trapped in Russia. He`s now stayed there for two years. Russia has been in the kind of crosshairs geopolitically for a whole bunch of reasons, having to do with the way Putin has acted on the international stage and in Ukraine and et cetera. And a lot of people wonder what this person`s fate is, whatever side of the stone debate is, can he just stay in Russia indefinitely? GREENWALD: You know, I mean, the problem here is is that -- and I think that people on pretty much across the ideological spectrum, certainly all journalists, have recognized and said this over and over, is that the climate for people who leak information that the government -- where the government dislikes the leak, if you leak information and the government likes your leak, you`re going to be OK, but if you leak information and the government dislikes your leak, they`re going to come after you really, really hard. He`s facing serious felony charges under a 1917 espionage statute that would put him in prison for many decades if he were convicted. And there`s clearly a sea change in how people think about him. You know, The New York Times editorial page, more than a year ago, said he should be given clemency, and since then, lots of people, for the reasons you talked about in your intro have changed their mind and said I used to think he was a traitor, but now I see that what he did was actually really important for the country and he should be allowed to come home. But I think the Justice Department and the government itself feels like it has a really strong interest not in punishing Snowden, because he can never leak again, but in sending a message to future Edward Snowdens and future whistle-blowers, that we will destroy you if you think about doing what he did. And that`s what I think. HAYES: Well, Glenn, if you were running the NSA, you would have the same interest, wouldn`t you? GREENWALD: Right! I`m just saying, it`s -- I think we can talk all we want about what justice requires, but I think the government`s interest here is to create a climate of fear to prevent future whistle-blowers from coming forward and that`s why they could never have Edward Snowden land at JFK to a parade and a hero`s welcome. HAYES: When you were talking about the modification we`ve seen here with the signing of the USA Freedom Act, you know, there`s a sense in which it does feel like the way the surveillance tape has grown and metastasized, particularly after 9/11, that reform does feel a little like squeezing the balloon. And particularly given what we know about how many different avenues, largely from the Snowden documents, how many different avenues the NSA has to get what they think they need, you wonder what actually marginal reforms could actually prevent some kind of real change in the posture of the government towards collection. GREENWALD: You know, that`s why I say, I mean, it`s not just that they have so many different ways of getting it, so that even if you legislated against a couple, then there`d be a lot more that they could turn to. That is true. It`s also the case of the intelligence community is really adept at capturing and co-opting whatever oversight or reform institutions you create. I mean, they did that perfectly after the Nixon and Jay Edgar Hoover eavesdropping scandal in the `70s, where the FISA court was created and the intelligence committees were created, and they really, easily capture those. And that`s why I say -- you know, and I think it`s really critical, the more important thing about the Snowden revelations is that it gives companies, individuals, and other countries the opportunity to develop technological tools to protect privacy and to subvert mass surveillance. And to me, that`s so much more important than any laws that the U.S. Congress could pass. HAYES: I should note, I misspoke earlier when I said a federal court had found the bulk collection unconstitutional, they found it illegal. They did not reach the constitutional issue, although that may be decided by the courts. GREENWALD; There was a previous federal judge -- there was a prior federal judge that actually did say it was unconstitutional. The one recently said it was illegal and not authorized by the Patriot Act. HAYES: On the statutory reading of the Patriot Act. And presumably, I mean, what`s fascinating about this, right, is that it was kept out of courts for so long. One of the things that the Snowden leak allowed to happen was for it to actually be litigated in the courts, because a party could now come forward and say, I am an injured party, because here we have a document showing that my phone records are being collected. HAYES: Yeah, I mean, that`s exactly the point. It`s like people look at, you know, well, how much change has there been in this really narrow way? Like, what law did congress pass? But that thing you just mentioned is critical. In 2010 and 2011, the ACLU sued the Obama administration and said, what you`re doing under the guise of the NSA is unconstitutional and illegal. And the Obama administration said, you don`t know what we`re doing because it`s all secret. And the Supreme Court, the five right-wing justices of the Supreme Court said, we agree with the Obama Justice Department, ACLU, you cannot sue. We can`t even give you a ruling on whether or not it`s legal, because you don`t know what they`re doing. And now we know what they`re doing. And now we can get courts to rule on it. HAYES: Glenn Greenwald, thank you very much. Next, Melissa McCarthy may be hitting a high point in a perfectly timed career, or at the very least, kicking some butt, while a once popular HBO series seems to be resurfacing into a culture that has moved on. All In the Movies, next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HAYES: Due to a last-minute cancellation, NBA superstar LeBron James will not be part of our all-star film critic roundtable for this week`s edition of All in the Movies, but King James will recommend a great movie if you`re trying to decide what to so this weekend. (BEGIN VDIEO CLIP) LEBRON JAMES, CLEVELAND CAVALEIRS: I went to the movies last week, at a regular movie theater. I went to go see, um -- I forgot the name of the movie, but -- I went to go see -- what`s the movie with the girls, and they be singing? UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Pitch Perfect. JAMES: Pitch Perfect 2, which is unbelievable. Fat Amy is awesome. I love her. Wherever you are, you`re awesome. (END VIDE OCLIP) HAYES: I love that clip. Our movie geek roundtable is assembling now to talk about what else is happening in Hollywood. That`s next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HAYES: It`s time for our weekly feature All in the Movies. This week, four years after ending its run on HBO Entourage is on the big screen. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) JEREMY PIVEN, ACTOR: What`d you spend the money on, anyway? I mean, I know it wasn`t on Turtle and Craft services. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You like the new spelled frame, huh? PIVEN: You look like Karen Carpenter. What did I tell you when I gave you $100 million. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What did we tell you? PIVEN: You agreed not to go over. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We told you it wasn`t enough. PIVEN: But you agreed to not go over. UNIDENIFIED MALE: Because you said I couldn`t direct unless we agreed. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s like when a girl asks if you want to bang her hot sister, of course you say no, but neither of you believe you mean it, though. PIVEN: What is he doing here? (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: That`s a good question. And to throw journalistic objectivity out the window for a moment, you should be asking yourself, what am I doing here if you turn up in a theater this weekend having paid to see this movie. Also coming up today, Melissa McCarthy`s espionage parody, Spy. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was given specific instructions by Elaine to tailor these gadgets to you. These are not yours. This anti-fungal spray can freeze and disable any security system. MELISSA MCCARTHY, ACTRESS: Wow, that is quite an image to be carrying all over Europe. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It also a pepper spray. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why not make it look like pepper spray? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s a pretty good idea. All right, well, next time. MCCARTNEY: Well, I can wait if you want to print up a new label. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, I`d have to turn the printer on again. I don`t really want to. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: We`ll talk about both of these comedies with three of my favorite movie writers next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) MCCARTNEY: These look delicious. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (SPEAKING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE0 MCCARTNEY: I don`t want to be critical, but this is very chewy. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re eating a hand towel. MCCARTNEY: Just cleansing my palette. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: Joining me now, Erin Gloria Ryan, managing editor at the newly unionized Jezebel, Christopher John Farley, senior editor director of the Wall Street Journal, and our buddy, Jason Bailey, film editor at FlavorWire. All right, I am very happy that Melissa McCarthy is having the cultural moment that she appears to be having. I feel like she`s one of these people that is just sort of crushing it right now and doing really well and making really smart decisions for her career and all of this basically just makes me really happy. CHRISTOPHER JOHN FARLEY, WALL STREET JOURNAL: I think Melissa McCarthy is kind of like LeBron James where she can be on a bad team, and yet she can make it better for everyone around her. And we`re seeing that in this film Spy. I mean, Spy actually is a quality film. It`s funny. Critics are liking it. But with Melissa McCarthy this makes everything better, raises it to a championship type level. HAYES: And I feel like there`s also this thing about her, right, which she was obviously, she was in this TV sitcom. It was about like two people that are overweight, and like there`s always a thing about like she`s big and she`s bigger, and that`s like -- and I just feel like, somehow, she has taken that and somehow transcended it, in a way. Like, it`s not like she`s that... ERIN GLORIA RYAN, JEZEBEL: Well, I think that she`s had a really integral role in like the systematic dismantling of these like dude genres of movies. So like you started out with like the Bachelor comedy movie and she was in Bridesmaids and she was like the raunchy loud one. And then after that she was in The Heat, and she was dismantling a buddy cop comedy. And now she`s like being the dude in a spy movie. HAYES: She`s like cutting a scythe through the wilderness of like dude comedy roles. JASON BAILEY, FLAVORWIRE: But what`s really interesting about this movie -- about how you sort of frame this is a movie, about how you sort of frame the work that she`s done so far is that this is a movie that is -- there are no weight jokes in the movie. The Joke in the movie is not Melissa McCarthy`s size, it`s that -- the way that her physical appearance and her lack of confidence that`s a result of that physical appearance causes everyone around her to underestimate her. HAYES: Right. bailey: and the movie, in an interesting way, is about her journey towards confidence and self-actualization, through this bond spoof framework. HAYES: That`s this really important point that I think ends up getting -- sometimes it gets lost when we have these sort of culture conversations about jokes and whether a joke`s offensive, which is this question of like, who is is the joke on, right, when we talk about -- even when he we talk about jokes about very heavy topics like rape jokes, et cetera, it`s always like, there`s always this question of like who`s on the wrong side of that joke. And is it the person with power or the person without power, right, because like you can joke about a lot of different things -- you can joke about weight or whatever in a way that isn`t at the expense of the person that doesn`t have power. FARLEY; I think in the end, the joke will be on Hollywood when we see the box office results from Spy. Her last couple of films... HAYES: She is going to kill -- yes. She is a bona fide, like money making machine movie star right now. RYAN: Well, I might get in trouble for saying this, but I think she`s our generation`s John Candy. And I mean it in like the best possible way -- somebody that`s willing to be like physically funny and lovable and vulnerable, but still kind of like put herself out there in this really genuine way. HAYES: She had this very intense moment she was on Ellen, she was talking about this bizarre sort of conversation, confrontation with a journalist who was saying that she shouldn`t let her husband direct her. Take a look. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) MCCARTNEY: He came up to me. And I was surprised that he talked to me and we were there for a different movie. And I said, you know, would you do that to a man? And he goes, well, but you really looked bad. And I said, do you have children? He said, I do. I said, I hope you don`t have a daughter. And when I said -- if she comes home and someone said, you can haven`t a job because you`re unattractive, I said are you going to say that`s right. And he took that in his heart and he was like, no, that`s -- I would never want that to happen. I would never in a million years want that to happen. I said, just know every time you write stuff, every young girl in this country reads that and they get a little bit chipped away. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: I like that line a lot. BAILEY: No. And what`s interesting about the movie is that it sort of weirdly mirrors her own career and what she goes through, being an actor. Because initially, when she sent out -- you know, she`s an analyst, she`s a desk jockey, she`s sent out into the field, but the disguises that she`s given are like cat ladies and frumpy ladies and stuff like that. But it`s -- and that`s sort of how she`s initially seen. But once she sort of has to think on her feet and take on a different persona and sort of be a badass, she becomes one. And that is in an interesting way sort of how her career has gone as well. HAYES: Speaking of badass, and I want to talk about (inaudible), but I`m just basically using this as a segue to play my favorite clip of the week, which is Amy Schumer, who`s another amazing female comedian who is killing it. Check this out. I love this line. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) AMY SCHUMER, COMEDIAN: I`m probably like 160 pounds right now and I can catch a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) whenever I want. Like, that`s the truth. It`s not a problem. It`s not a problem. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: I just -- I have nothing to say about that, nothing constructive to ad, except it`s a hilarious, amazing line. FARLEY; Just wait -- counting the days until Train Wreck comes out. HAYES: Right, because she has... BAILEY: When Train Wreck comes out. HAYES: And her movie is coming out this summer. And I`m hoping that it`s going to be a huge, massive success. A movie that I`m not necessarily hoping is going to be a huge, massive success, Entourage, which I don`t understand why they made. Here`s a great -- it`s not getting particularly nice reviews. I would say here`s A.L. Scott (ph) saying, "watching the movie is like finding an ancient issue of a second tier men`s mag, not even Maxim, but Loaded or Nuts, in a friend`s guest bathroom. You wonder how it got there. You wonder how you got there." And this from Caleb Horton, it sure would be nice to say Entourage hates women and leave it there, but above all else, it just hates people. Actually, it doesn`t even do that, hate requires passion, this movie celebrates the degradation of humanity, it is a movie with no moral center." Erin. RYAN: Well, I have a lot of thoughts about Entourage. Back when it was on TV, I like felt so negatively about it. I used to like time trips to the bar for when it was on, because I knew all the terrible people would be watching Entourage like reliably. And this is before like -- like 2011, like a lot of people had DVR, but not everybody had DVR... HAYES: But you knew they would be home. RYAN: I was like, these -- like, the really awful people, definitely... HAYES: It also feels very, very dated right now. It feels out of the cultural moment we`re in right now. BAILEY: Absolutely. You know, and we`ve seen -- we`ve had enough conversation about the way Hollywood treats women that a movie that celebrates the way white guys treat women is not exactly on time. What`s going to be interesting about this weekend is watching the way that it`s going to be positioned as Spy is the women`s film and Entourage is the men`s film. HAYES: And what that narrative is in terms of who wins. BAILEY: Yeah, you know, Sam Adams at Critic Wire said it`s not men versus women`s films, it`s a battle of good versus evil. HAYES: Erin Gloria Ryan, Christopher John Farley and Jason Bailey, thank you for joining us at All In the Movies. That is All In for this evening. The Rachel Maddow Show begins now. THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED. END