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All In with Chris Hayes, Transcript 06/04/15

Guests: Evan Smith, Robert Knake, Gail Satlz, Matthew Breen, MyrnaPerez,David Feige

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST (voice-over): Tonight on ALL IN -- RICK PERRY (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I`m running to be your president. HAYES: Rick Perry returns. PERRY: It`s not what you say, it is what you have done. (APPLAUSE) HAYES: A campaign announcement sweatier than a Vikram yoga class, Rick Perry announces a second run for president. Tonight, why this time could be different. Then, Hillary Clinton goes to war for early voting. HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Stop fear mongering about a phantom epidemic of election fraud. HAYES: Plus, the Mississippi family facing arrest for cheering at a high school graduation. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You did it, baby! HAYES: The troubling takeaway from the FOX News Duggar interview. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Again, this was not rape or anything like that. HAYES: ALL IN starts right now. (END VIDEOTAPE) HAYES: Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes. And Rick Perry is back. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) PERRY: Each day, Americans demonstrate tremendous courage. But many of those Americans have been knocked down and they`re looking for a second chance. Let`s give them that second chance. Let`s give them real leadership. Let`s give them a future greater than the greatest days of our past. Let`s give them a president who leads us in the direction of our highest dreams. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: The former Texas governor entered the Republican presidential race today inside a sweltering airplane hangar outside Dallas, making the announcement in front of a C-130 plane, similar to the one he flew as an Air Force pilot in the 1970s emblazoned with the words "Perry for president." He was surrounded by military veterans and their families including Navy SEALs Marcus and Morgan Luttrell, who flanked Perry during his remarks, as well as Taya Kyle, the widow of American sniper Chris Kyle. Many in the crowd wore cowboy hats, though Perry himself has exchanged his cowboy boots for black loafers, now sport thick, black glasses, unlike in his 2012 presidential campaign. This time around, Perry even has his own country rap theme song. We`ve dropped the lyrics so you can karaoke at home. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) PERRY: Thank you, and God bless you. (APPLAUSE) RAP SONG: Rick Perry supporter, let`s protect our border, to hell with anyone who don`t believe in a USA, Rick Perry all the way (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: It`s easy to forget how strong Perry came out of the gate in his 2012 presidential run. Long-time governor of a large state with strong job growth and support from both the monied establishment and GOP base, Perry zoomed to the front of the pack for the nomination in August, 2011, polling far ahead of Mitt Romney. But he put in by all accounts a terrible performance as a candidate which culminated in an iconic debate moment. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) PERRY: It`s three agencies of government when I get there that are gone. Commerce, Education, and the -- what`s the third one there? MODERATOR: You can`t name the third one? PERRY: The third agency of government? I would -- I would do away with the Education, the -- (LAUGHTER) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Commerce -- PERRY: Commerce. And let`s see -- UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, my. PERRY: I can`t -- third one I can`t. Sorry. Oops. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: This time around, Perry -- oh, my god, that tape -- Perry has to contend with the memories of his disastrous 2012 performance as well as a controversial indictment, his home state that could require him to leave the campaign trail to head to a Texas court. Joining me now from Dallas, MSNBC political correspondent Kasie Hunt, who is at Rick Perry`s announcement today. And, Kasie, I got to say from that sort of stage craft perspective, it seemed the event came off pretty well -- the sweltering heat and sweatiness aside. KASIE HUNT, MSNBC CORRESPONDENT: The sweltering heat and sweatiness aside, yes, Chris. I think they tried to be prepared for how hot it was going to be. They had several giant air conditioners in the back, but they weren`t getting the job done. They did hand attendees some fans, "Perry for president." As you could see, Perry sort hear to sweat it out front and center for everyone. But other than that, one of the more dramatic backdrops we`ve seen for something like this -- and a heavy focus on that military biography. That`s something that is new for his 2016 bid from 2012. He obviously mentioned that he was a veteran quite a bit in the last campaign. It wasn`t really a centerpiece. He does really have an authentic connection to many of those military veterans who were standing up on stage with him tonight. Marcus Luttrell - - excuse me, this afternoon. Marcus Luttrell, one of them. He actually lived with Governor Perry and Anita Perry at the governor`s mansion as he was coming back from combat in Iraq and Afghanistan. HAYES: Yes, it really did strike me that whereas the sort of lead message of Governor Perry the last time around was about the Texas miracle, so-called Texas miracle, about Texas` economic performance, this much more focused on foreign policy, on the military and veterans, his own record as a veteran, veterans up on stage. That was not -- I mean, it really was not the sort of front and center lead branding for the Perry campaign in 2012. HUNT: Well, Chris, I think it reflects a broader shift, as well. I think that was something that applied to much of the Republican field. You had obviously Mitt Romney, the ultimate nominee, running on economic issues. That`s much of what the country was focused on at the time. I think it really highlights how the issues have shifted. I think that, you know, ISIS has become front and center in this campaign, talking about President Obama`s foreign policy, what Republicans perceive to be weakness on that front. And I think that the Perry campaign sees an opening here. I mean, there aren`t very many military veterans for a country that had elected military veterans as president for years and years basically up until Bill Clinton and President Obama. You know, this -- this is a field that`s devoid largely of military experience. Perry and Senator Graham are the only two. HAYES: Governor Perry should talk to President John Kerry, about the -- how well that necessarily works. Kasie Hunt, thank you very much. HUNT: Thanks, Chris. HAYES: Joining me now from Austin is Evan Smith, CEO and editor-in- chief of "The Texas Tribune." So, Evan, you know, we were going back to the 2012 -- we were sort of following the clippings of the 2012 incredible rise and fall of Governor Rick Perry as presidential candidate. What -- why was that such a disaster, and what should lead anyone to believe that disaster will not be repeated once he`s off prompter, knocking off prepared speech, and having to do the kinds of things that he proved himself essentially incapable of doing on the trail last time around? EVAN SMITH, THE TEXAS TRIBUNE: Well, the two big issues in the last election were that his health and preparedness was not good. Beyond that, it went perfectly. His record, as you said, as governor of Texas, the economic record particularly was really very strong. And a lot of us thoughts that`s going to be enough to carry him to the top of the pack, but he blew it. In a lot of ways, the bigger problem was he blew it in what was a weak field. And his big challenge in this election, Chris, I would say is not simply being better prepared and more healthy, but realizing that in a field of 15 or 20 Republicans, even the worst of whom is better than some of best last time, he`s going to have to figure out how to stand out. The veterans thing today was one thing. And I -- I would agree with you, it was definitely interesting to see that as the focus of his speech today. But he really needs to differentiate himself from a lot of the people in Washington. He started to do that some today by highlighting his executive experience as opposed to their speech making on the floor of the Senate. That`s going to be, I think, a big feature of his campaign. HAYES: Here`s the section of the speech when he calls out senators for making speeches as opposed to his record. Take a listen. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) PERRY: Will be this -- when have you led? Leadership is not a speech on the Senate floor, it`s not what you say. It is what you have done. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: Now, the issue here which I think is pretty interesting -- two things have come together. One, Kasie, alluded to -- I think the bite of the economic issues for the Republican Party has diminished considerably due to the performance of the economy. And due, frankly, to the fact that they kind of got their way on the deficit and austerity for a while, and that`s been taken away from them in some ways. Perry harped on it today, but it just doesn`t poll or sort of charge voters the way it, did say, in 2010, particularly. The other so-called Texas miracle looks a little shakier. These are a few headlines. The Texas economic hiccup complicates Rick Perry`s 2016 pitch. They lost more than 25,000 jobs in March, according to state figures. So, it does seem like that`s going to be there complicating for him in terms of making the case about his record. SMITH: Well, in fact, that March jobs number was the first negative jobs number in 53 months in Texas. Look, Texas survived the recession, a lot of you and the rest of the country. We here in Texas survived as well as we did in part because of the strength of the oil and gas economy. HAYES: Right. SMITH: And since oil and gas has been a little bit on the downturn, we suffer. We benefit in good times and suffer in bad times. Look, a president has to preside over among other things the economy. One of the knocks against President Obama was he didn`t have any experience running anything. And so, when it came time to -- to steady the economy in bad times, he didn`t really have the chops to do. And Perry`s going argue, look, 15 years, almost 15 years as governor, the net job growth in Texas exceeded the other 49 states combined. You, by the way, hear Jeb Bush talking about his record of creating jobs in Florida, as well. So, I think we`re going to not hear Perry talk about that. The biggest challenge as you talked about earlier is people have got to forget about what happened in 2012. Perry said today that the most optimistic person on Earth is the dry land cotton farmer. No, the most optimistic person on Earth is somebody who wants to run for president again after pratfalling the way he did last time. He really is going to have to figure out how to have a second chance to make a first impression. And if he can`t do that, none of the rest of this stuff matter. HAYES: Yes. There`s going to be scrutiny up front. The next time we have on you, I want to talk about the sort of scuttlebutt I heard about the war between the Cruz and Perry camps behind the scenes in Texas, just the sort of fascinating Texas Republican politics scuttlebutt. We`ll talk about that next time. Evan Smith, thank you very much. SMITH: Thanks, Chris. HAYES: Rick Perry is the 10th major Republican candidate in the GOP presidential race. And there are plenty more coming. To participate in the first GOP debate on FOX News in August, a candidate needs to be in the top ten in polling. Right now, Perry just makes the cut, polling in 10th place in the Real Clear Politics average with 3 percent support. Joining me now, a man whom I bet -- I bet you could get 3 percent in a national poll, MSNBC contributor -- I believe it -- Sam Seder, host of "The Majority Report." SAM SEDER, MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR: I may throw my hat in the ring. HAYES: This is --I mean, Kasie alluded to it. Let`s remember the value proposition of the Rick Perry campaign back in 2012 which was kind of great. It was basically you`ve got Mitt Romney and the base doesn`t like him. You`ve got a bunch of people that base loved like Michele Bachmann, Herman Cain, who are just implausible nominees, and Rick Perry was like, I`m the guy, I`m the Venn diagram intersection. Here I am. Everyone was really excited. SEDER: Right. And now, he is like number three in all of those slots. HAYES: Right. SEDER: Except in -- I think that`s why we saw the sort of promotion the his military record, except in that one area. I mean, he has -- there`s no other governor who can -- who has his military service. And that`s basically -- you know, when you`re talking about a race, there could well be 15 people, 16, maybe 20 people in the race. And no joke -- HAYES: I can`t believe we`re at ten already! SEDER: And -- I think that like there`s -- there`s still a couple of people who we don`t even know their names yet. They`re actually considering to jump in. Once -- more do and I think we`re going to see like Donald Trump, I think that`s possible. We`re going to see -- HAYES: Do you really think that will happen? SEDER: I actually -- I actually do. I do think this is one of those situations where there is, you know, this is like the California recall. We`ve talked about it. HAYES: Right. SEDER: He, I think, is pushing the military experience as a way of differentiating himself. But the glass is at one point someone`s going to say, I want to see your prescription. HAYES: Right. SEDER: You know, show it to us, because that is such a sort of naked attempt to get people to forget -- HAYES: You`re talking about the pain medication in 2012? SEDER: I`m talking about the glasses he`s wearing. HAYES: Oh, the glasses! (LAUGHTER) SEDER: And the attempt to get away from governor oops, I mean, honestly. HAYES: Right. You think that what`s it`s about? SEDER: I mean, I definitely think they`re trying to project this was not the goofball who was on that stage. Now, there may have been other reasons why he forgot that. There were rumors -- HAYES: He was in pain medication, that back pain, yes. (LAUGHTER) SEDER: Nevertheless, when you want to get rid of three government agencies and you can`t name them, people think that maybe your policy prescriptions are insincere. You know, I mean -- (LAUGHTER) HAYES: Why would they think that? SEDER: Well, I mean, all it`s going to take, is you know during that debate, if he`s there, and he tries to land a punch, someone will land a punch and say "oops," and the entire crowd is going to laugh, and you`re right back in that moment. HAYES: Right. No. The other issue that he has, you`ve got this fascinating big state dynamic emerging now with the Florida battle for Florida donors and Florida allegiance between Jeb Bush and Marco Rubio considered top tier candidates. And in Texas, you`ve got Ted Cruz and Governor Rick Perry. And -- remember -- SEDER: And Jeb Bush was involved in Texas to a certain extent, because that`s his family. HAYES: That`s exactly right. People fund-raise from their geographic base. If you ever had the experience as a political reporter of combing through disclosures of someone fund-raising, they start close to home. Literally, it`s the neighbors -- SEDER: That`s where they started. HAYES: That`s going to be a brutal "Game of Throne-esque" war for those fundraising dollars in just the state of Texas, just between those, those two guys and then the Bush family. SEDER: Everyone`s got to run around and look for their billionaire. Nobody wants to be the one left without sort of the chair when the music stops. And frankly, I think that`s -- you know, in some ways, it`s interesting the way that it`s impacting our politics. I think a lot of what we saw the past couple of weeks was a function of him striking out with a lot of billionaires. And finding another way to raise money, and to a certain extent, that was helpful in terms of our politics. HAYES: There`s an interesting -- there`s always an idea that governors have a better shot, they don`t have a voting record. You`ve got a lot of senators who are running, 5 percent, one of 20 senators running, but it also occurs to me that it`s a lot easier to command national attention from the Senate in this crowded field than an ex-governor. I mean, that`s the problem that Perry really faces is he can`t -- it`s hard for him to make news. SEDER: Yes. And he`s been out of politics for a while, right? HAYES: Right. SEDER: So -- HAYES: Not as long as Jeb Bush. SEDER: Right, not as long as Jeb Bush, I think that`s a handicap for Jeb Bush, as well. At times he`s rusty. I think you`re right. If you`re a senator, you`re basically double dipping. You`ve got the people covering the campaign, and you`ve got the people in Washington in terms of your outlets to get your earned media. HAYES: All right. Sam Seder, thank you very much. You`ve got a good long-term prospect in the leader board, fantasy draft. But right now, I think you`re third or fourth. SEDER: I`m not worried. HAYES: With Rick Perry now officially joining the presidential race. It`s time for an update of the ALL IN 2016 candidate draft. First, a reminder of the moment Rick Perry got picked. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) JOY REID, MSNBC NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: I think I`m going to go for the lowest number on the board strategy to -- you know, to explain my -- three. HAYES: Another prime number. REID: Yes. HAYES: Three. Will it deliver for Joy? Rick Perry! ANNOUNCER: Rick Perry. He`s got three good reasons to run, but can only remember two. PERRY: Oh, what`s the third one there? Let`s see. (LAUGHTER) ANNOUNCER: The former governor of the Lone Star State is back. But this time, he`s got four eyes on the prize. PERRY: Today has been awesome, girl! ANNOUNCER: He`s former Texas Governor Rick Perry! (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: Oh, we`re pretty happy with our four eyes on the prize line there. That excellent pick by joy Reid means she`s up to 300 points on the board. Second only to Michael Steele right now. But, of course, there are many more potential candidates still dragging their feet on declaring. We`ve got an update on one of the most egregious of those, next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HAYES: Never let it be said that ALL IN doesn`t get results. Think of us as ALL IN on your side. Last night, we brought you the story of Jeb Bush`s long period of presidential exploration was possibly in flagrant violation of campaign finance law. The laws might classify him as a candidate with the attendant rules and laws of being a candidate despite the fact he has not yet declared officially his actual candidacy. Paul S. Ryan of the Campaign Legal Center, a campaign finance watchdog group, explained this to us last night. His group filed complaints charging Bush with violations of federal election law. Well, today, less than 24 hours after our segment aired, came the news that Bush will put an end to the ruse and announce his presidential bid on June 15th in Miami. The official word from the spokeswoman is that he, quote, "looks forward to announcing his decision on that day." But no one doubts what that decision will be. The announcement will come after Bush makes a week-long trip to Europe. So there you have. It Bush will announce his presidential bid. We here at ALL IN, we get results. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HAYES: The federal government has suffered a massive data breach, possibly the biggest invasion of government data in U.S. history. NBC News chief foreign affairs correspondent, Andrea Mitchell, has the latest. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) ANDREA MITCHELL, NBC NEWS CHIEF FOREIGN AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT (voice- over): Officials say this could be the biggest cyberattack in American history. The culprit, they say, China. As many as 4 million current and former government employees have been told their personal information including names, Social Security numbers, and birthdays could have been hacked from the Office of Personnel Management -- the agency that screens and hires federal workers and does security clearances for 90 percent of the federal government. Tonight, the Obama administration is scrambling to assess the damage and warning millions of government employees that they should monitor their bank accounts and will get government help with credit reports and identity theft insurance. Officials also tell NBC News the data breach involved a never-before- seen cyber-indicator and could potentially affect every federal agency. The FBI is investigating, but in the past cyber-attacks from China have come from this Chinese army building in Shanghai. This comes after last year`s suspected North Korean attack on Sony and reports that Russia had hacked the White House, State Department, and IRS, including President Obama`s e-mails. Today, before this cyberattack was disclosed, intelligence committee member Senator Ron Wyden told NBC News -- SEN. RON WYDEN (D), OREGON: I continue to feel that it is very important that we ramp up our effort to go after foreign hackers and foreign threats. MTICHELL (on camera): U.S. officials say that this breach is serious, but it could not be the worst case scenario they hope. That would involve the disclosure of the identities of the CIA`s covert agents. So far at least, they do not think the CIA covers have been blown. So far, the Chinese embassy has not responded to our calls about the hacking. (END VIDEOTAPE) HAYES: As Andrea Mitchell reporting, joining me now by phone, Robert Knake, he`s senior fellow for cybersecurity at the Council on Foreign Relations, the former director of cybersecurity policy at the National Security Council at the White House. Robert, can you tell me, first of all, how -- how big a deal this is, and how would you know how big a deal it is, forensically? ROBERT KNAKE, COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS (via telephone): I don`t think this is actually that much a bigger deal than the breaches at Anthem, Carefirst, and other commercial providers that have lost similar information. This information is actually no different than the kind of credit identity information that`s been stolen by criminal groups over the last year. What`s going on now in terms of forensics is a process that is probably nowhere near finished trying to take the indicators that were pulled from this breach investigation and trying to figure out who may have been behind it. But at this point, figuring out the severity of the breach is something that OBM can`t do yet. What they`ve said is that it`s possible up to 4 million people may have had this information taken. But they don`t in fact know yet whether that has happened. HAYES: So, there`s sort of different end goals one can imagine with hackers breaking into information. What you said just at the top there sounds like if this is personal information, what would -- what would be the end goal here? What would be the reason to acquire this information? KNAKE: The reason you`d want this kind of information is to commit fraud, to commit tax fraud, insurance fraud, or credit card fraud. It`s the kind of information that really is going to be most valuable when applied to a criminal enterprise. Its intelligence value is worth less. A secondary thing you might do with this information is try and use it to gain other accounts. To use it, for instance, to reset passwords that might ask, for instance, where you were born, what your birthday is -- that kind of information could be used to gain secondary account. But the value for that is less than it would be for fraud. HAYES: It seems the default assumption in these cases is to look toward China, sometimes to look toward Russia. Is that justified based on your experience, or are we seeing a proliferation across the world of these kinds of activities? KNAKE: Yes. I`m skeptical of the claim that this is known to be Chinese government officials, Chinese government-sanctioned action. Doesn`t seem like a worthwhile target for an intelligence agency. It doesn`t seem like something that a Chinese military agency would want to waste vulnerability going after. It`s not intelligence information. It`s useful for trade. It`s not intellectual property. So, I think there`s a rush to jump and say it`s China, but I`m skeptical of the voracity of the claims that government officials created that. That`s not an official U.S. government position. HAYES: Robert Knake, former director of cyberspace at the NSC, thank you very much. KNAKE: Thank you. HAYES: All right. Still ahead, Hillary Clinton, the Democrats declare war on voter suppression and litigation as a weapon of choice. The details on that bold move, next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) CLINTON: Today, Republicans are systematically and deliberately trying to stop millions of American citizens from voting. What part of democracy are they afraid of? I believe every citizen has the right to vote, and I believe we should do everything we can to make it easier for every citizen to vote. (APPLAUSE) (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: Hillary Clinton delivered a fiery speech today to Texas Southern University, historically black school in Houston, calling for at least 20 days of early voting in every date. Texas is now at the epicenter of the country`s ongoing battles over voting rights. Four years after becoming law, the state`s voter ID rules, which are some of the strictest in the nation, are under review by the fifth circuit court of appeals. The Supreme Court just decided last week to hear a conservative challenge to Texas` redistricting plan. Meanwhile, the Clinton campaign and its allies have already fired the opening shots in what promises to be a very aggressive, perhaps unpecedentedly aggressive, legal strategy against voting restrictions nationwide. A lawyer whose clients include the Clinton campaign filed lawsuits last month in Ohio and Wisconsin, two key presidential battlegrounds already. The New York Times reports that Georgia, Nevada and Virginia could be next. Joining me now, Myrna Perez, deputy director of Democracy Program at the Brendan Center for Justice. Brendan Center has done a lot of litigation around these issues. You`re from San Antonio, Texas. MYRNA PEREZ, BRENDAN CENTER FOR JUSTICE: I am. I am. HAYES: Which in Texas really is the battleground now. She went down there. Before we get to the litigation, the Clinton laid out a real policy agenda today on voting access that the most radical far-reaching sweeping sort of expansion of the ease of the franchise that I`ve heard from a major candidate. PEREZ: Right, no, it was really exciting because for many years, you and other reporters and the Brendan Center have been indicating that we are in the middle of a war on voting. This used to be a bipartisan issue where it was agreed people should have free and fair access to the election system, but in 2010 we saw that dramatically change. And it`s really encouraging to see a politician of a very high stature say enough. We are not going to put unnecessarily barriers in front of the ballot box and all politicians should be saying things like that. HAYES: And not just we shouldn`t be putting barriers, we should be expanding. 20 days of early voting across the nation, talked about Oregon`s automatic voter registration. And she said that`s a model policy. I mean, this would pretty profoundly change the franchise in America were we to see this happen across the country. PEREZ: Right. One of the things that we have been advocating for at the Brendan Center for years is something called voter registration modernization, which is a way of trying to get all people who are not registered on the rolls. And Hillary Clinton endorsed such a proposal. She wants to have a policy such that if you`re eligible and if you`re American, you are getting on the rolls and it would -- the important concept is the idea of shifting the burden to the government to get people registered to vote instead of putting all these hoops in front of people to be able to register. HAYES: So, now we get to this -- what I think is going to be one of the most fascinating dramatic high stakes subtexts of this election, which is going to be the litigation battle over individual states laws particularly at a time when the Voting Rights Act, key provisions of which have been rendered essentially inoperable. So, it`s going to be up to the campaigns in a lot of ways, either the Department of Justice or the campaigns to be the plaintiffs in the lawsuits, right? PEREZ: Well, there is a lot of private parties. For example, we represent the Texas NAACP and the Mexican-American Legislative Caucus in the Texas... HAYES: In the suit in Texas. PEREZ: In Texas, right. So, we need voter advocates out there making sure that unnecessary restrictions to the ballot box are pushed back. It is a risky move given what the court did to the preclearance provision and what the court did right before the elections allowing certain restrictive laws like the one that happened in Texas and the one in Ohio to go forward for the 2014 elections. HAYES: The Supreme Court did that. They refused to step in and say actually you can`t put these into operation before election until we`ve had a chance to hear whether these are actually constitutional. PEREZ: Right. And the Texas case, we feel like we`re on very strong ground because we found a finding of discriminatory intent, which means that the legislature was purposely trying to discriminate against minority voters. But at a time when it`s not clear that the Supreme Court will always step in to protect voters to have these lawsuits out there create -- you know, it`s going to create something to watch. It`s to create something for people to be paying attention to HAYES: And it`s also to going to create this succession of sort of high stakes down to the wire battles because what you get when you are litigate under active campaign are last-minute motions for changes, injunctions, those get appealed up, right? Because you can`t turn back the clock, right? So having this, you know, having a litigation battle over voting restrictions in 2015 is very different than having a litigation battle over voting restrictions in say September 2016, which is what we`re going to see. PEREZ: Well, the hope in the Texas case at least is that it will be resolved before then, because it is at the appellate stage. The Fifth Circuit certainly knows what kind of the clock we`re talking about. There are almost always elections, so -- and you`re entirely right that once an election happens and you`re disenfranchised, you can`t undo it. So, it`s really important that voters are able to have free and fair access to the ballot box and we need to make sure that all politicians are talking about how to implement common sense reforms to make sure it`s easier for people to vote. PEREZ: All right. Myrna Perez, thank you so much. PEREZ: Thank you. HAYES: Up next, why people who cheered during a graduation celebration are NOW facing jail time. and later, the incredible details from the Duggar family interview. We`ll be right back. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You did it, baby. (LAUGHTER) UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He said you did it baby and waved his towel and went out the door. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: OK. A high school graduation in Mississippi has for all intents and purposes turned into a crime scene. At least three people are facing disturbing the peace charges and possible $500 fines and six months in jail after, get this, cheering on a family member after her name was called at the Senatobia High School graduation last month. According to the New York Times one woman, Ursula Miller, was charged for yelling and clapping while inside the building after an announcement had made for all to hold applause in celebrating until after the end of the ceremony. Her loud, boisterous noise, the affidavit said, was against the peace and dignity of the state of Mississippi. Jay Foster, the Senatobia school superintendent said that not only did he tell the graduation crowd before the ceremony to hold their applause until the end, but that there was a warning in the graduation program, which was obtained by the NBC affiliate in Memphis. It reads in part, quote, persons responsible for any disruption by loud cheers, shouting, or the use of noise makers may be promptly escorted from the coliseum. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) LINDA WALKER, MOTHER OF GRADUATE: When a child do all they can to graduate, it`s an honor and a privilege for them to walk that stage. It`s privilege for me to clap and applaud for mine. I kept quiet. I let my son and them did it because they are younger. I was crying, because I was so happy for her. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: Foster told a local paper The Clarion-Ledger, that there were four people who disturbed the ceremony. He was able to get the names of three of them and press charges, but still hasn`t been able to identify the fourth. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) JAY FOSTER, SENATOBA SCHOOL SUPERINTENDENT: I hope we send the message that everybody desires a right to hear their child`s name called, see their child walk across stage. We`re talking about a ceremony that lasts about 55 minutes to an hour. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: Joining me now, David Feige, former public defender and professor at the National Criminal Defense College. All right, I want to play this one more time just so we can watch the crime/ And a warning to viewers, this is graphic, OK. If you have young children around, you may want to shield their eyes, take a look. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You did it, baby! (LAUGHTER) HENRY WALKER: To think that I might have to bail out of jail, or pay court costs or a $500 fine to express my love is ridiculous, man, it`s just ridiculous. (END VIDEO CLIP) DAVID FEIGE, NATIONAL CRIMINAL DEFENSE COLLEGE: Yes, it is. HAYES: Are you kidding me? FEIGE: It`s ridiculous, but not even that surprising. HAYES: Not that surprising. FEIGE: Well, it is and isn`t. I mean, obviously the application of this absurd law to this absurd situation is in a way surprising, but it`s completely indicative of way, way larger problem. HAYES: And what is that problem? FEIGE: I would say this, that at this point our laws, our criminal laws, are so vast, they cover such an extraordinary expanse and the definitions are so elastic, that we can essentially criminalize everything. HAYES: First of all, let me just say this, I`ve been to some graduation in my day, this is how every graduation... FEIGE: Well, I hope you didn`t say a word. HAYES: Well, this is how every graduation I`ve ever gone to has gone, been this way, administrator gets up very sternly and says for the sake of everyone, please hold your applause until all the names have been read. Everyone nods yes. Three kids in, everyone is cheering after every one, because no can help themselves. FEIGE: Cheer for everyone. It`s wonderful. HAYES: So, this to me is a key point, right, this wasn`t unlawful behavior, this was disorderly behavior in the eyes of the superintendent. And the key is that the law allows people in power to essentially prosecute violations of order as violations of law. FEIGE: that`s exactly right. And that is in a way, right, the krill of the criminal justice system. It`s just omnipresent, it`s everywhere and you can just find it pretty much wherever you want to look. The question is where do you look? And it`s in that use of discretion that I think people find discriminatory policing and things that upset them. HAYES: Let me just read you offenses against public order here in New York that just sort of serve -- disorderly conduct, unlawful assembly, loitering, criminal nuisance in the second degree and harassment in the second degree. I mean, the point is that if a police officer or some force of the law wants to say that you are breaking the law in a given circumstance, there is no -- they will be able to do so. The criminal code exists to give them the ability to do that. FEIGE: But it -- and let`s just speak about New York, because as you know, I have a bunch of years of experience in the system here. Not only can they, they do. And it is utterly shocking. You can go to arraignments pretty much tonight from here. We can walk down to criminal court arraignments and you can find people charged with disorderly conduct. And it is one the things, I`ll tell you what it accompanies all the time, it accompanies assault on police officer cases, resisting arrest cases, obstructing governmental administration cases. You`d be amazed at how quickly a violation of public order materializes. HAYES: And those are -- those tend to be cases of people essentially getting mouthy, being loud and disruptive, right. FEIGE: Or cheering for their kid as they graduate. It`s whatever you want it to be in a certain way. HAYES; There is obvious I think racial subtext here, which we should note, right, which is like this is a white superintendent. This is in Mississippi. This is a town that is... FEIGE: A place of great dignity. HAYES: Yes, that does not like to have their peace offended. This is the superintendent was -- my point is not that I want to pay money, but I want them to know there are consequences for their behavior -- stern father-figure here -- and I want us to have a dignified service. FEIGE: OK. Well, I`m all for the dignified -- actually, I`m not even for the dignified service, I`m for the enthusiastic congratulatory service. HAYES: I`m from the Bronx, people cheer in the Bronx. FEIGE: But let`s talk about the other bit of this, which is bonding out of jail and the $500 that it costs to secure your freedom after violating the dignity and public order of the state of Mississippi. HAYES: There was just a survey about -- something like half of American households can`t come up with $500. FEIGE: Well, what is amazing is -- and that`s right -- and tonight, tonight, at Riker`s Island, there are 1,000 or so people sleeping at Riker`s Island pretrial, convicted of nothing because they cannot come up with $500 bail. HAYES: David Feige, always a pleasure, thank you for joining us. FEIGE: My pleasure. HAYES: All right, still ahead tonight, we take a look at what exactly was revealed in the first post scandal Duggar family interview. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HAYES: While public sector unions have withered under attacks from the right over the past few years, a whole different segment of the economy may now offer hope to this country`s struggling labor movement: online media. Editorial employees at Gawker media, which runs websites like Jezebel, Daedspin and Gizmoto, just voted to join the Writers Guild of America making Gawker the first ever digital media company to organize its labor force. It`s nothing short of a landslide with 75 percent of the Gawker employees who voted opting to join the guild for the purpose of collective bargaining. In a post that went up this morning, Gawker staff said the next steps will be, quote, determining what we want to bargain for, forming a bargaining commit, and negotiating a contract. We are unionized. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HAYES: The first time since acknowledging that their son Josh Duggar made what they call some very bad mistakes as a young teenager, his parents are speaking out on television. Last night, Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar took to the friendly outlet of Fox News to tell their story. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) MEGYN KELLY, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Did he explain why? I mean, was that a question that you asked? JIM BOB DUGGAR, FATHER: He said he was curious about girls and he had gone in and just basically touched them over their clothes when they were sleeping. They didn`t know he had done it. MICHELLE DUGGAR, MOTHER: It was so important for us as parents to talk to our girls and make sure that nothing else had happened and so... KELLY: And what did they say? MICHELLE DUGGAR: Well, one by one, as we talked with them, none of them were aware of Josh`s wrongdoings. KELLY: So they learned about it from you? MICHELLE DUGGAR: Yeah. JIM BOB DUGGAR: Yes, yes. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: According to Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar they closely monitored their son`s actions after he came forward the first time. They did not at this point get him any professional help or contact authorities. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) JIM BOB DUGGAR: We thought, you know, at first that Josh, you know, was on the road to mend at first, but he was still a kid and he was still a juvenile. All these, again -- this was not rape or anything like that, this was like touching somebody over their clothes. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: It was only at least two other incidents where Josh Duggar told his parents he inappropriately touched two more of his sisters and a non-family member that the family sought outside help. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) JIM BOB DUGGAR: At that point that`s when we pulled him out of the house and said he can`t be here. And so we pulled him out and he went through that working with that man... KELLY: Yes, he goes to the counseling. JIM BOB DUGGAR: Yes. KELLY: And then when he was done with the counseling -- this is not like a licensed therapist, it`s somebody, a Christian-based... JIM BOB DUGGAR: Christian-based, but I tell you what... KELLY: Treatment facility. JIM BOB DUGGAR: It really had a huge impact on his life. And it really -- that was the turning point in his life. And this man really reached his heart. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: After Josh Duggar returned from the Little Rock Christian-base treatment facility, his parents say they brought him into the Arkansas State Police headquarters where he spoke with the state trooper. No charges were ever filed. The next year, the Duggars starred in their first big national TV special. Today they sit atop one of the most popular reality TV shows of our time. Are there other ways the Duggars might have handled this situation? We`ll talk about that next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HAYES: All right, joining me now Dr. Gail Saltz, psychiatrist, and Matthew Breen, editor-in-chief at The Advocate. I`ve got to say, it was hard to not watch -- I mean, it was pretty riveting this interview. It was upsetting. Reactions as a psychiatric professional. DR. GAIL SALTZ, PSYCHIATRIST: Yeah, I think you can stand in the shoes and imagine that one of your children has done something horrible to the other of your children and you still love both your children and I think that came through that you`re in a really terrible situation, but what was mystifying is your reaction to handle that. I think most people -- I would like to believe that most people understand that that is abuse, and that abuse -- in a situation where one of your children abused the other, they both need immediate mental health intervention. That is just... HAYES: Like we`re getting in the car right now, like I`m calling, I`m finding the person, the mental health professional for each of these children of mine. SALTZ: Correct. HAYES: The perpetrator and victim. SALTZ: Yes. HAYES: And we`re going to go now. MATTHEW BREEN, THE ADVOCATE: To, the bible-based home schooling technique that they subscribe to. HAYES: Which they did not get into in the interview. BREEN: Which they did not discuss in the interview, true. Suggest that you handle it at home and it has this long set of worksheets about how do you determine the factors in the household or the school that contributed to this abuse? Was there anything that the victim did to provoke abuse? It`s this real blame the victim mentality that in the context of this Quiverfull philosophy can be super isolating to the victim. SALTZ: Actually, worst than isolating, I think perpetuates guilt and shame that is already a real issue for victims of abuse particularly sexual abuse when they have no guilt that they often question themselves. Did I do something? And so to have your home schooling endorse that and to be also in a family where the women, where the model is that the women are sort of there to support the men, what choice do you have in forgiveness? Really? What -- I mean, I... BREEN: Support the men. All of the women support all of the men in their lives, the older brother included. SALTZ: That`s it. That`s it. HAYES: And let`s also be clear here. I mean, whatever was like, whatever was done initially was manifestly ineffective, because this happened with five different individuals, right. So, the intervention -- now there are a lot of people I think when the story first broke who said you should have called the cops. What do you think about that? SALTZ: You know, I`m not a lawyer so I`m really not addressing the legalese of this. I really think that the first thing you should do is get mental health care and that also -- first of all, you have to understand abuse, it`s really a public health issue. It happens unfortunately often enough that it is. HAYES: Incredibly widespread, often the majority of are either family members or people in the close circle of the victim. SALTZ: Correct. And that`s why we have to understand that the first line people are pediatricians, emergency room doctors, psychiatrists, psychologists, because those are the people who are authorized to, and when they deem correctly need to be reporting the family so that child protective services can come in so that an objective third party can decide is it safe to have these people together in the house? And I think that the matters the most. The question of, you know, should you be arrested and charged and so on, you know, I think what is disconcerting about this particular case, and I know the that the Duggars said differently, but the difference between 15 and 16-year-old and molestation of a 5 or 6-year-old I think that`s splitting hairs and it concerns me about issues of pedophilia. It does. HAYES: I`ve also got to say that my other feeling watching this was this happened the year before you go on television. I just, you know, the year before you decided to -- you decided, you the adults decided to put your minor children on television, invite the world into your home, make your world public, open them all up to prying eyes. You made that decision for your kids, you the parents and you`re going to go on television and talk about how other families are to be judged, how other families are less than. SALTZ: This is a classic case of the psychological term called splitting, which is you split off the urges that are occurring to you or to your family of I want to do this heinous thing, you split off and say no, I am not that at all. I am the opposite of that. I am the pillar of right and moral and everything good, you know, think Mark Foley abuse children, I protect them. BREEN: Well, clearly the family used that to demonize others and they have been really virulent in terms of demonizing gay and lesbian parents via Josh Duggar as executive director of the Family Research Council. His job was to go around promoting junk science saying that gay and lesbian parents could be child molesters... HAYES: And a threat to children. BREEN: And a threat to children, exactly. In addition to that, the family inserted themselves into Arkansas politics. In Fayetteville, Arkansas, when an LGBT civil rights ordnance passed there, they got involved. They donated to the campaign to repeal the ordnance. Michelle Duggar got -- recorded a robocall that went to voters in the area and said transgender people are going to molest your children, you little girls, in bathrooms. HAYES: And she did that again, let`s just be clear, she did that knowing what had happened. SALTZ: That`s why I say it is unconsciously about that, you know. This isn`t my family. This didn`t happen to me. I`m going to -- it`s those people. You`re all bad people, and I`m going to protect other people from those bad people. HAYES: It`s also to me what was so striking about this whole thing, particularly the fact that it happened in the venue of Fox and it was a very kind of empathetic interview is that like you know like Michael Brown stole some cigarillos and he`s a thug and this young man molested five different girls. Now, I want to live in a world where we find humane compassionate interventions for the victims and for this young man so that he can get right and healthy and have a productive life and he shouldn`t be called and thrown in the scrap heap of the criminal justice system. He shouldn`t be, you know, tossed out as someone who is irredeemable, but it`s just like this bubble of compassion that existed in that interview, it`s so constrained, right? BREEN: Absolutely. It seems like you can`t have that sort of -- that sort of intervention, that therapeutic intervention in an environment like Quiverfull, or an environment like the school teaching program that they use at home. It doesn`t -- it doesn`t allow for any scrutiny from your community. HAYES: Right, because it is fundamentally antagonistic to outsideness because of the way it`s constructed. Dr. Gail Saltz, Matthew Breen, thank you both for being here. That is All In for this evening. The Rachel Maddow Show starts now. THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED. END