All In with Chris Hayes, Transcript 05/08/15

Guests: Todd Smith, Jesse Walker, Curtis Ellis, Kathleen Turner, LisaGreen, Jordan Carlos

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST (voice-over): Tonight on ALL IN -- ALEX JONES, INFO WARS: They have the safety off, their finger is on the trigger for a final takeover, and they are in the final phases of doing it. HAYES: Right-wing fear over a federal invasion of Texas. FORMER REP. RON PAUL (R), TEXAS: I see that the federal government has taken over. HAYES: Tonight, the next governor`s new explanation for using the Texas guard to monitor an American military drill. And, the latest presidential candidate to pander over paranoia. SEN. TED CRUZ (R), TEXAS: I understand the concern that`s been raised by a lot of citizens about Jade Helm. HAYES: Then, the now bipartisan pushback on the president`s trip to Nike town. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s got to be the shoes! HAYES: Plus, why the anti-abortion right is attacking Kathleen Turner. The legendary actress is here to respond. And, should sex on the beach land you on a sex offender registry? REPORTER: Bold and brazen with their bodies, now busted and behind bars. HAYES: ALL IN starts right now. (END VIDEOTAPE) HAYES: Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes. Republican Texas Governor Greg Abbott is still defending his controversial decision to call in the Texas guard to monitor U.S. military exercises happening in his state this summer -- a move that`s been slammed by members of his own party for stoking paranoid furies about a planned invasion of the Lone Star State. In an interview today, Abbott attempted to dispel those theories while laying the blame for the hysteria squarely at the feet of President Obama. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) GOV. GREG ABBOTT (R), TEXAS: I think the cause of the underlying concerns is that we see instances like a shooting in Ft. Hood by a terrorist, that the president labels workplace violence. We see the president come to the border in Texas and say, it`s safer than it`s ever been, only to have a record number of people crossing the border, coming into the state of Texas. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: The training exercise has the admittedly cryptic name Jade Helm 15 and is taking place in the southwestern U.S. from July 15th to September 15th. It`s an actual exercise. It`s meant for the armed services to practice counterinsurgency tactics under conditions more like an actual battlefield. And this is the Pentagon`s map of Jade Helm 15, color-coded to show which areas are hostile for the purposes of the exercise, which are friendly, and which are in between. You may notice that two hostile states, Texas and Utah, also happen to be in red in the political sense -- leading conservative Texas Congressman Louie Gohmert to the following conclusion. (BEGIN AUDIO CLIP) REP. LOUIE GOHMERT (R), TEXAS: You start seeing those kind of things and you go, now, wait a minute, because I know participating in military exercises, in helping plan them, you would never use the real name of a country, for example, you`d make up names. And the reason why is you would never want one of our foreign allies to think we were doing exercises to prepare to go into their country. You wouldn`t want to insult them or alarm them. So, you never use real names. And it appears that they`re quite comfortable, in this one case, in using real names, and Texas is hostile, we`ve got to take that back. We`ve got the take back Utah. (END AUDIO CLIP) HAYES: That is just the tip of a very ominous iceberg. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Martial law in America. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These are not just drills. Texas will be the first state to be under martial law. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jade Helm, jade, China, helm, at the helm, who`s in control? China`s in control. JONES: They`re trying to come to our houses and kill us, if we resist. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Claiming that they are just a regular training exercise. No, they`re not! This is not regular! UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is a preparation for martial law. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is not a preparation for martial law, sir. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s what you say. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: OK. So, as fringy as those theories may sound, they`ve gotten quite a bit of mainstream legitimacy from people like the governor of Texas, Governor Abbott, and Senator Ted Cruz, an actual presidential candidate, sitting senator, who requested more details about Jade Helm 15 from the Pentagon. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) CRUZ: You know, I understand the concern that`s been raised from a lot of citizens about Jade Helm. It`s a question I`m getting a lot, and I think part of the reason is, we have seen for six years a federal government disrespecting the liberty of the citizens. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: There are dissenters to the jade helm hysteria, but within the Texas GOP, former Governor Rick Perry said the military is, quote, "quite trustworthy", and John Cornyn, the senior senator from Texas told reporters Wednesday that after meeting with defense officials, he`s convinced that Jade Helm 15 is, quote, nothing more and nothing less than a typical training event. One 16-year veteran of the Texas state legislature, a fellow Republican, went so far to write a letter to Governor Abbott, blasting him for, quote, "pandering to idiots." I`m joined now by the author of that letter, former Representative Todd Smith. What moved you, Representative -- former Representative, to write that letter? FORMER STATE REP. TODD SMITH (R), TEXAS: Well, just like many people in Texas, on Thursday, I read in the newspaper that the sitting governor of the state of Texas had issued a statement saying that he was going to use taxpayer money to call out the Texas state guard, which is a state military operation, to, in his own words, monitor U.S. Navy SEALs in order to, in his own words, protect Texans from the U.S. military. And I was horrified. I was angry. I literally, that night, rolled around in bed for an hour, because I could not believe where our state had gotten and I went to the office the next morning and did what I could do, which is to write a letter to the governor and make a public statement, expressing my disgust at his decision to pander to the farthest extreme of political activists in the state of Texas. HAYES: Can you explain -- OK, so, there are conspiracy theories a bubble up all the time, and there are legitimate reasons, let`s just bracket for a moment, that people might not want a military exercise happening in a given place. We can understand those. In this case, you`ve got this pretty, I think, paranoid idea that the U.S. government is preparing some martial law takeover of Texas. What is - - what`s the play here? Explain to me the politics that leads Greg Abbott to not just say, look, to do what Rick Perry did and John Cornyn did and say, look, there`s nothing to worry about here? SMITH: Well, there`s been a huge transition in the Republican primary over the last 15 years, as against the Republican primary that I was originally elected into in the late 1990s. You know, we got a sitting government that has as very close relationship with Ted Cruz. Ted Cruz used to be the solicitor general, and the attorney general staff. The governor used to be the attorney general. So they are political friends, political allies. And we have, on the other hand, a lieutenant governor, who used to be a radio talk show host, who is amazingly, enough, perceived, possibly, to be right of the sitting governor who sent this letter out. It`s rumored that the lieutenant governor looks in the mirror at night and sees himself governor and is looking at a run for governor in four years when Governor Abbott would be up for election. So, we have a lieutenant governor that used to be a radio talk show host, a governor who is very close to Ted Cruz, who is concerned about, apparently, a run from his right. HAYES: Right. SMITH: What that means is we`ve got these two elected officials that are in a race to the furthest extremes of the Republican Party, and I think that`s the context in which his statement was made last week. And again, it`s just an indication of what the Republican primary has become in Texas. HAYES: Yes, you`re referring, in the case of Lieutenant Governor Dan Patrick, who is quite conservative, quite sort of charismatic in his own way. He has a powerful base. And what you`re saying, what I`m hearing from you, is that Greg Abbott, the sitting governor, is looking in the rearview mirror, and seeing his own lieutenant governor tailing him, and has to basically stay in front of him? SMITH: Well, it`s not his own lieutenant governor. The lieutenant governor in Texas is elect -- HAYES: Elected independently, of course. SMITH: Elected independently on a statewide basis. But that certainly is the conventional political wisdom, is that that is the only possible explanation for why you would have a sitting governor sending out statements like this, that could only possibly appeal to the furthest extreme of primary voters. HAYES: Former Texas State Representative Todd Smith, it was a pleasure. Thank you, sir. SMITH: Thank you. HAYES: All right. Joining me now, Jessie Walker, books editor of "Reason" magazine, author of a great book, "The United States of Paranoia: A Conspiracy Theory." A really fantastic read that I recommend. Jesse, it`s good to see you. I like to talk to you when topics like this come to the fore. This actually has sort of the classic elements of a great paranoid conspiracy theory, mostly, if we have that map, I don`t know if we can show that map again, but the map really makes it. Because that, I think, is the thing that really kicked this off, don`t you think? JESSE WALKER, BOOKS EDITOR, REASON MAGAZINE: Well, yes, it`s a great image to use. I mean, when I`m blogging about it, I always know what picture to put up. I mean, there`s a couple of things to bear in mind about this. You bracketed earlier, non-conspiratorial objections, but this gets lost a lot -- there are very good reasons to not want to have a military training exercise in your community. HAYES: Absolutely. WALKER: And this -- and in particularly, Bastrop, which is where this big meeting was held last week or the week before, they just had those horrible wildfires that destroyed almost 1,700 homes in 2011. And so, people there are very nervous about things like, will they be using a smoke grenade on a dry day? I mean, not all of the objections that are bubbling up have to do with martial law and things like that. So, that`s one important thing -- HAYES: Let me just stop you there. Those are legitimate and I also think that, you know, if the governor wants to come out and say, you know, we`ve got concerns about whether due care will be taken or what impact this will have on the community. But in some ways, it would be more politically difficult to articulate those reasons to impose -- to have a military exercise than it is to say that this is a threat to Texan sovereignty. WALKER: Yes, well, he didn`t use the phrase, "a threat to Texan sovereignty," but actually he could have very easily made a statement that just highlighted those and even connected at the same, we don`t trust, you know, the central government to do right by us, but of course it`s difficult, because it`s the military, and conservative politics can be split that way. But the other thing to look at here, is that, you know, even when a conspiracy theory doesn`t have any validity to it, and I don`t think that the ones being tossed around about this exercise do, if they catch on and it speaks to an underlying anxiety or experience of the people who believe it. And the most popular conspiracy theory about this, and there are a number of, but the most popular has -- you know, this martial law idea, I think it speaks to this fear of the militarization of policing. I mean, people have overtly cited that in Texas, who are talking to reporters. You know, the idea, you know, police seeing themselves as soldiers. The idea of losing that barrier between, you know, the armed forces and the police forces. And that`s a perfectly -- that is also a perfect legitimate thing to be concerned about. In this case, what happens, and what often happens with conspiracy theories that aren`t true, a real anxiety gets neutralized, and turned into sort of a convenient story to hang that on. And so, even though -- I mean, I think if a cabal of fascists was going to try to impose martial law, they probably would not go to the county government for permission first. You know, so there are little -- HAYES: Let`s hold a hearing. WALKER: Yes. Well, yes, I mean, the hearing was actually after the local government approved it, but the local government did approve it some months back. So -- in fact, you know, the judge who was presiding over the meeting last week, he apologized. He said, we didn`t -- I mean, he thought it was a good idea. He`s moving forward with it, but he said, if we had realized that there was going to be this much dissension, you know, we would have brought that into consideration. We just didn`t think people would be afraid of this. HAYES: Yes, well, maybe a big counterinsurgency training exercises will be the new practice I fracking. The, not in my backyard do I want fracking or big exercise -- WALKER: Yes, people have NIMBY-ed about a lot more than this -- I mean, a lot less than this. HAYES: That`s true. WALKER: And people have rebelled against this sort of thing. Operation Urban Warrior in Oakland. You had the local left sitting in Jerry Brown`s office, he was the mayor then protesting it. And again, you had that mixture of quality of life issues like noise and disruption and pollution, a fear of the militarization of American society, and then some dubious conspiracy theories. People saying, maybe the marines are doing this because they want to crack down on uprisings in U.S. cities. We`ll we`ve seen it before and we`ll probably see it again. HAYES: Jesse Walker, thank you very much. Up next, the president takes on some of the most beloved progressives in his own party. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: On very progressive issue, they`re right there with me. And then on this one, they`re like, whooping on me. They`re making this stuff up. This is just not true. (END VIDEO CLIP) (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HAYES: Senate Homeland Security and Government Affairs Committee held a meeting yesterday on jihad 2.0, social media and the next evolution of terrorist recruitment, which focuses on ISIS`s extremely deft use of memes and other forms of social media. Now, it`s a legitimate concern, but that didn`t keep the Senate hearing from descending into the sort of self-parody that brought to mind a comment by former Senator Ted Stevens who in 2006 famously described the Internet as a, quote, "series of tubes". (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SEN. CORY BOOKER (D), NEW JERSEY: You know, I know something about memes, the data you`re presenting about Muslims killing Muslims, and this is a group that`s killing more Muslims, to get memes to go more viral. Look at their fancy memes compared to what we`re not doing. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: Look at those fancy members, their fancy memes, compared to what we`re not doing. I wanted to help in Cory Booker`s crusade to improve America`s insufficiently fancy memes. So, I headed over to the meme generator and built a meme of my own. It`s one of my favorites going around. Michael Jordan crying, here`s crying Michael Jordan channeling Cory Booker and lamenting all their fancy memes compared to what we`re not doing. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HAYES: President Obama arrived in Oregon last night, where he was met by protesters, upset over his push to pass a 12-nation Asian-Pacific trade deal, called the Trans Pacific Partnership. Now, the president`s support of TPP has put him starkly at odds with liberals in his own party, including Elizabeth Warren, and presidential candidate and Senator Bernie Sanders, who cast the deal as a corporate giveaway that will cost jobs and lower wages. It has also put him in alignment with some Republicans, including prominently Mitch McConnell and Paul Ryan, with whom he almost never agrees. At Nike`s headquarters today, the president made his case for the deal and he criticized liberals who`ve attacked his position, saying some of their claims are simply made up. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) OBAMA: They`re my fellow travelers on minimum wage and on job training and on clean energy and on every progressive issue, they`re right there with me. And then on this one, they`re like, whooping on me. On this issue, on trade, I actually think some of my dearest friends are wrong. (EDN VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: But it`s not just liberals who are critical of the president`s plan to pass TPP and specifically get trade promotion authority from Congress so he can push the deal through. A number of Republicans, including Alabama Senator Jeff Sessions, Donald Trump of all people, and Louisiana Governor Bobby Jindal are calling on Congress not to grant the president the so-called fast track authority, which would prevent Congress from amending the deal after the president negotiates. Newly minted Republican presidential candidate Mike Huckabee, who`s fusing a kind of economic populism and staunch social conservatism, has been particularly critical. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) MIKE HUCKABEE (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: If we do another trade deal that drives American wages lower and that isn`t monitored and isn`t secured to be completely fair in how it`s administered, then that`s not free trade. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: Joining me now is another conservative who opposes this deal, Curtis Ellis, executive director of the American Jobs Alliance. Just wrote a column on World Net Daily about your opposition to this. I -- a few weeks ago, as this was starting to play out, which has been largely covered as a kind of internecine fight on the left, right? I mean, that`s how you see it, that`s how the president talks about it. I said, there is space on the right for people to go against this. This is kind of a layup in many ways. Do you think that`s true? CURTIS ELLIS, AMERICAN JOBS ALLIANCE: Absolutely. I can`t recall a single ad for a Republican candidate in the last election that said, vote for me, elect me, and I`ll hand more constitutional power over to Barack Obama. HAYES: That`s right, because the substance of the deal is one issue, and the process, which would essentially be, Congress is going to have to take a vote, right, to grant this authority that will allow the deal to be voted on up or down without amendments. Do you think that`s going to be a tough vote for Republicans? As of now, they don`t see it that way, I don`t think. ELLIS: It`s absolutely going to be a tough vote. Come on. We learned today that only two senators have actually read this. Now, they want to put this deal on a fast track, but they haven`t read it. But we know the two senators who have read it aren`t supporting it. Jeff Sessions read it. There`s -- this thing is called a living agreement, meaning after it`s ratified, it can change. It`s a shape shifter. The president can change it, other countries can join it, and there will be no congressional approval. This will literally be the last free trade agreement ever debated. But before we get to debate it, we`re supposed to put it on a fast track, get rid of the whole -- HAYES: Now -- ELLIS: -- two-thirds majority required for the largest international compact in American history. That`s shredding the Constitution. HAYES: So, well, where is -- what you`re saying right now, my question is, people, you know, the candidates are going through Iowa right now, right? And they`re going to get questions in town halls the about a whole bunch of this stuff, right? Are they going to get questions in Iowa town halls and New Hampshire town halls about this? Is there a part of the base, the activist base of the Republican Party, that`s going to press people on this, that`s going to make them declare where their votes are going to be? Do you see that pressure evolving? ELLIS: I have seen it. I`ve seen that pressure. I`ve been in town halls with congressional members of Congress with senators. I`m sure they`re going to get questions about it. And not just from the media. Look, if you go on to Breitbart and you look at the comments that are being generated -- HAYES: That`s interesting. ELLIS: -- it`s unanimously against it. HAYES: Against it. ELLIS: Against it. HAYES: You know, it`s funny. You and I were talking about this before, I covered something called the NAFTA super highway, which is a thing that didn`t actually exist, although there was part of it that was this corridor, it`s very complicated. Anyway, what I remember finding myself in reporting that was that there was a big part of the right-wing base that was really opposed to NATFA. Really thought NAFTA was a raw deal. Pat Buchanan was sort of the standard-bearer for that. And right now, that`s not represented at all in the Republican Party leadership. It seems like there`s a space there to be that candidate and Huckabee is kind of taking that mantel. ELLIS: Huckabee, Carly Fiorina has come out against it. HAYES: Which was surprising to me. ELLIS: Yes. And, look, the leadership of both parties, the Republican Party and the Democratic Party, they`ve both been bought by the same Wall Street interests. And there`s deep suspicion among the rank and file, in both parties, against this. The principal division in this country is an opportunity between liberals and conservatives or even Democrats and Republicans. It`s between the elite and the rest of us. HAYES: Music to my ears. Curtis Ellis, thank you very much. ELLIS: Thank you. HAYES: Very good. All right. Coming up, disturbing racist text messages surface in the San Francisco Police Department. That story is next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HAYES: Back in March, it was revealed that members of the San Francisco Police Department had exchanged overtly racist text messages. The texts became public after they were outlined in that federal court case against one of the officers, Sergeant Ian Furminger, who was ultimately convicted and sentenced to more than three years in prison on corruption- related charges. Here are just some of the texts uncovered in that case, in response to a text asking, quote, "Do you celebrate Kwanzaa at your school?", Furminger wrote, "Yeah, we, burn the cross on the field." Another text from Furminger reads, quote, "Cross burning lowers blood pressure. I did the test myself." In response to a text from another San Francisco Police Department officer, regarding the promotion of a black officer to sergeant, Furminger wrote, "F`ing N-word." And then there`s one, quote, "I hate to tell you this, but my wife`s friend is over with their kids and her husband is black. He`s an attorney, but should I be worried?" Furminger`s friend and SFPD officer responded, "Get your pocket gun, keep it available in case the monkey returns to its roots. It`s not against the law to put an animal down." Furminger responded, "Well said." These are working police officers. Yesterday, the San Francisco district attorney announced that with the help of three retired judges, his office is expanding an ongoing investigation of the city`s police and sheriff`s departments. According to NBC News, quote, "The judges will look at the circumstances of the 3,000 arrests to examine whether biases influenced arrest decisions, the decisions of prosecutors, and potentially results in wrongful convictions". That`s arrests associated with some of these officers. This news comes just as the U.S. Justice Department announces it will be giving Baltimore Mayor Stephanie Rawlings-Blake what she asked for in the wake of the death of Freddie Gray, a civil rights probe to investigate whether the Baltimore Police Department engaged in a pattern of unconstitutional policing. In the last several months, the Obama Justice Department has launched similar inquiries into police departments of Ferguson and Cleveland after African-Americans were killed by police in those cities. The Cleveland one actually started before Tamir Rice. "The New York Times`" Peter Baker makes this point, quote, "Many presidents have governed during times of racial tension, but Mr. Obama is the first to see in the mirror a face that looks like those on the other side of history`s ledger." On Monday, the president announced an expansion of his My Brother`s Keeper initiative, bringing in private companies as part of an alliance to help combat the massive structural impediments faced by young men of color. And earlier this week, the man in charge of the task force, assistant to the president and cabinet secretary Broderick Johnson, visited Baltimore to talk to kids, educators, and local leaders. Afterwards, he told me about the goals of My Brother`s Keeper. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) BRODERICK JOHNSON, CHAIR, MY BROTHER`S KEEPER TASK FORCE: Well, what we`re trying to accomplish first of all is just in terms of the reach is that we know that there are points throughout the lives of all children, starting really with from cradle and following all the way through to their early 20s, when things make a big difference in terms of intervention in their lives. We know these things based on data. We know these things based on experiences. And so what we`re trying to do through my brother`s keeper is make sure through both public and private initiatives that we can identify and help bring funding and resources to those lives of children and young people along the way. It is a public/private effort to do that. HAYES: Given the challenges that particularly young men of color living in poverty in urban environments face, that`s a specific population, but let`s talk about that for a moment -- JOHNSON: Sure. HAYES: -- and just looking at things like incarceration rates or the degree to which they`re enmeshed in the criminal justice system, unemployment and poverty, I mean, doesn`t this amount to essentially a Band-Aid on a gaping wound? JOHNSON: No, not at all. I think it`s important first to look at My Brother`s Keeper and the context of many other things that this president has been doing over the last six years. Whether it has to do with what we do about our criminal justice system, taking a look at the relationship between local law enforcement and people in their communities, looking at things we can do to help young men of color, especially, avoid situations in which they will end up in the criminal justice system, or they will be victims of violence. It`s really a very broad approach through our economic policies and our educational policies and our criminal justice policies. This is just one aspect of it, but it`s an important aspect, because what makes MBK particularly unique, Chris, is that it`s a community-based approach, and we have been going across the country as you noted listening to what young folks have to say. HAYES: Does America put too many young men in prison? JOHNSON: I don`t think there`s any question that we have way too many -- far too many young men who are in the criminal justice system who are otherwise disconnected from their communities because they are not in school or they are not working. So it is a problem and it`s something that we can correct and that we have to correct as both a moral and an economic obligation. HAYES: When you talk about the president`s record on this, I mean, what concretely has this, obviously, you know, a lot of this is done at the local level, right? Police departments are local, state laws and state statutes. But, I mean, what has this White House done? What are the concrete steps this White House has done or will take to attack that problem of over incarceration or mass incarceration? JOHNSON: Well,, for example, through the efforts of the Justice Department, with respect to what we can do about with programs designed to help local law enforcement and local criminal justice systems be able to give an opportunity for young people, when they come out of that system, through anti-recidivism programs, to make sure that they don`t get in the revolving door or don`t end up on the school-to-prison pipeline. And then working to ensure when they get out of those situations, when they have an opportunity to turn their lives around, that they have a second chance. That`s where job training and job apprenticeship programs are very important. But Chris, there`s still -- let`s be honest, there`s still a lot of work to do and the president`s very focused on making sure that we continue to do this work and change these lives. HAYES: Broderick Johnson, chair of My Brother`s Keeper task force. Thank you, sir. I really appreciate it. JOHNSON: Thank you very much, Chris. HAYES: All right, up next, Kathleen Turner under attack for her stance on reproductive rights. She`ll join me -- she is joining me right live next on set. You`ll see her after this break. Stick around. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Wow, it`s cool! UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tada! UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE; Wait until I tell Diane. She`s always bragging about her dad`s Cadillac. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What do you think, Peggy Sue? KATHLEEN TURNER, ACTRESS: Oh, dad, you are always doing stuff like this. It`s funny. It`s really funny. You bought an Edsel. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Young lady, what`s the matter with you? Are you drunk? TURNER: Uh, just a little. I had a tough day. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: The great Kathleen Turner in the iconic time travel movie, "Peggy Sue Got Married," in an outfit, by the way, that would be perfectly contemporary in Brooklyn right now. The actress has come under fire this week from right wing media for an op-ed she wrote warning about the hidden political power of so-called Personhood abortion bans. Quote, the unabashed extremism of Personhood help makes the larger anti-choice movement seem more moderate, providing cover for more incremental abortion restrictions that make it much harder for women to access abortion. And when those measures pass, Personhood advocates get closer to their goal. Without access to safe and legal abortion, a woman`s right to choose is essentially meaningless. Joining me now is Kathleen Turner, Academy Award-nominated actress, board member of People for The American Way. It`s a great pleasure to have you here. KATHLEEN TURNER, ACTRESS: I`m very glad to be here. HAYES: So, so you wrote this op-ed about the way the sort of Personhood movement, which hasn`t been successful on its own terms, actually accomplishes some other goal. TURNER: Yes. I mean, I think it`s really a Trojan horse. The fact is that because it`s been soundly defeated in several states, Mississippi, North Dakota, that one thinks that it`s a non-issue. But in fact, at the same time, there have been hundreds, hundreds of bills in every state, making it more and more difficult to access any kind of health care, not just abortion. The -- but the things like, you know, a 72-hour waiting period that`s unnecessary, unnecessary medical tests, a clinic that have to live up to emergency room standards for no good reason. Doctors that have to have accreditation at a local hospital, but then a local hospital, if they have public funding, are not allowed to give credit to doctors -- yes. All of these things. And one of the issues that bothers me the most is that all of this targets the least-fortunate women in our society. To be quite honest, any woman with means of any kind... HAYES: Is going to be able to... TURNER: Is going to have whatever treatment she wants. So, what we`re really doing is incredibly -- incredible lack of equality. We are truly making the least capable -- women, the least who can afford to suffer, suffer the most. HAYES: You know, as I was ready the op-ed, which I thought was very good, and I should just -- just so people are clear, Personhood amendments essentially could give... TURNER: It gives a fertilized embryo full rights... HAYES: Full legal rights under the 14th Amendment. TURNER: Which is before women, are actually listed in the constitution, by the way. HAYES: So, as I was reading the op-ed and then I was sort of looking online, I was noticing you got written up and attacked by a bunch of conservative sites. TURNER: Right. HAYES: Anti-choice sites. I mean, I guess my question is, of all the issues you can talk about publicly, this strikes me as near the top in terms of the amount of backlash it causes. Do you feel -- I don`t know, how do you feel about being a public figure advocating something that people are going to be angry about? TURNER: Well, this is something I`ve been doing for 30 years. So, backlash is not the newest thing to me. And in many ways, I think in my industry, people have simply come to accept it. Oh, well, there she goes again. However, however, working with people for the American Way, one of the reasons that we wrote this, and I wrote this op-ed, was the information we get from our Right-Wing Watch, which is a fantastic blog, and in fact, you all get a lot of information... HAYES: We do, yeah. TURNER: ...from us on that. It`s almost as though people simply don`t believe all these attacks on women. And I`m not speaking just of right or access to abortion, it has reached to point where it`s access to health care at all. HAYES: You said you`ve been working on these issues for 30 years. And it always strikes me that in the space of women`s equality, there are sort of two stories to tell. One is incredible tremendous gains and that`s in educational attainment, it`s in professional... TURNER: Professional attainments. Yes, indeed. HAYES: And then at the same time, there`s all sorts of ways in which it seems things have moved backwards or... TURNER: You know, Chris, this is a bit of a misread to me, because, in the last, what, three years, there have been 331bills passed across this country against access to contraception and reproductive health care. Why? Why would this be so? I have a terrible idea. And you`re not going to like it. Nobody likes it. HAYES: OK. TURNER: The fact that women have become so successful, where 57 percent of the higher degrees in education, 40 percent of working wives are the primary breadwinner in their families. I think men are scared. basically. HAYES: You think this is essentially classic backlash politics? TURNER: I think it is. HAYES: That actually there`s a relationship between intensified efforts to restrict women`s reproductive choice at a time in which they`re achieving more parity in the economic sphere. TURNER: It`s the only thing that makes sense to me. HAYES: That`s interesting. the industry that you`ve worked in, show business, for much of your life. TURNER: Right. HAYES: When not doing this kind of work, I mean, it always strikes me as to have just bizarre gender politics too. TURNER: Oh, it does. HAYES: Because on some level, all these people, it`s like Hollywood liberals, but then you scratch the surface of just about anything and any of the institutional politics of Hollywood or show business... TURNER: Oh, they`re really misogynistic, on the whole. HAYES: Yes, frankly. TURNER: Is one reason why everybody lives out in Los Angeles, I think. Yes, I mean, if you look at the statistics in our industry, women have a tiny percentage of important roles. We`re a tiny number of directors and writers and executives within the industry. HAYES: Yeah, it`s truly shocking. TURNER: Probably less than almost any other. HAYES: That`s what I mean. I mean, if you look at something like big law firms, right, places that you think of being bastions of the old patriarchy, they are actually better I think in some ways statically in a place like Hollywood and things like. TURNER: I`m afraid you`re right. HAYES: Why is that? When`s that going to change? TURNER: I think a lot of it has to do with ticket sales. They simply believe, or they have, although this is changing, that men sell more tickets. HAYES: Men drive sales. TURNER: Right. And so women come along as second place, you know. HAYES: One of the things I`ve seen in my small sliver of the media world is that certain mythologies get born about what sells or what doesn`t, that aren`t necessarily based on data, but they have an incredibly enduring effect. TURNER: Well, have you have ever noticed how there`ll be suddenly three or four films of the same thing out of... HAYES: Exactly. And then -- like right now, there`s this amazing renaissance of female-written comedies, because one worked, and then all of a sudden people started saying, well, maybe women can be funny. And next thing you know, that`s the way it works. Kathleen Turner, it`s a great pleasure to have you here. TURNER: Thank you very much. HAYES: All right, up next, drunken sex on the beach between two consenting adults, how`s that for a tease, leads to sex offender charges, and the threat of 15 years in prison. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s ridiculous. It shouldn`t happen. There`s a time and place for everything and it`s not for on the beach. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To be just that up-front and bold and just hard- core, it was like, wow. (END VIDEO CLIP) (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HAYES: The All In crime blotter for this Friday night takes us to Virginia Beach, Virginia where video was taken of a fairly standard bank robbery. Guy walks in, hands the teller a note, the teller, seen here, hands over cash, lots of cash. Now, how do we have this video of the robbery in progress? Because the accused bank robber posted it on Instagram. He also posted this very polite note he apparently handed the teller that reads in part, I need 150,000 bands right now, please. The note ends with a smiley face. So, there`s that. 23-year-old Dominyk Antonio Alfonseca was arrested 20 minutes after he left the town bank in Virginia Beach. Alfonseca told one local news station he isn`t guilty of the crime he`s accused of because he asked for the cash in the best possible way. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) DONINYK ANTONIO ALFONSECA, ACCUSED OF ROBBING A BANK: I went and I gave a note and I asked actually politely. A robbery is demanding, going and demanding something and taking the money or whatever like that. I didn`t do that. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: Now, now that we`ve cleared that up, a Florida couple is facing the possibility of 15 years in jail, 15 years in jail, after an amorous afternoon on a public beach. Does the potential punishment fit the crime? That`s next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) DISPATCHER: Nanatee county 911. What is the address of the emergency? UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. I`m at, um, a beach, I`m at Ana Maria Beach. And there`s a couple here that will not -- will not stop getting naked in front of everybody. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: A Florida couple caused quite a stir among Bradenton Beachgoers last July. 40-year-old Jose Caballero and 20-year-old Elissa Alvarez claim they were just cuddling that day. Witnesses had a different interpretation of the afternoon`s events. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sex on the beach caught on camera. Look at this YouTube video of a Manatee County couple doesn`t hold back. Bold and brazen with their bodies, now busted and behind bars. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This isn`t, you know, an after-hours disco that people can use for a garbage can. This is, you know, this is the root of family. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: As one traumatized sunbather told a local news station, "I`ve lived here since 1978. I go to the beaches. I have never seen anything like this. Police responded, arresting the couple, but the ordeal did not end there for Alvarez, that`s him in the red, just FY . They`re each charged with two counts of lewd and lascivious behaviors, charges that carry a maximum sentence of 15, 1-5 years in prison. After rejecting a plea deal offered by the state, the couple went on trial. As the Bradenton Herald reports, video played in the courtroom showed Alvarez moving on top of Caballero in a sexual manner in broad daylight. Witnesses testified a 3- year-old girl saw them. After 15 minutes of deliberation, a jury found them guilty. So, now, get this, the couple will have to register as sex offenders. But the state attorney prosecuting couple says he won`t seek the maximum penalty. It was never our intention to seek 15 years for either of them. That`s not a reasonable sentence. A sentencing date has yet to be sent. Tonight, Cabellero and Alvarez remain in a Florida jail. So, serious question, what should the punishment be for having sex on the beach? And should they have to register as sex offenders for the rest of their lives. That discussion -- nice graphic, by the way, folks. That discussion is next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: 8 On Your Side spoke exclusively with the cop who caught the couple on Cortez Beach last summer having sex in front of kids. UNIDENIFIED MALE: Very surprised that somebody would be that bold on a public beach, especially with people around. UNIDENITIFIED MALE: 40-year-old Jose Cabellero and 20-year-old Elissa Alvarez claimed they were cuddling and wrestling that day. But this video sealed the dirty deal. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: All right. That dirty deal has now led to two people in jail, facing possibly 15 years in prison and registering as sex offenders. Is that right? Is that fair? Joining me now to discuss this, I have with me, author and legal analyst Lisa Green, and Jordan Carlos, my friend, writer for the Nightly Show with Larry Wilmore. JORDAN CARLOS, WRITER: This is correct. HAYES: Congrats on that gig, man. You guys are doing a great job. CARLOS: Thank you. HAYES: I`m loving it. So, OK -- so actually -- obviously, this is a funny story, people have drunken sex on the beach, everyone saw it. There`s like a YouTube. Like, it`s funny. CARLOS: People do this. HAYES: That is part of it, right. I mean, not, I think -- so let me just start with this. I think it`s a bad thing to do this, what this couple did, they shouldn`t have done it, and there should be some sanction for it. But, like -- Lisa, 15 years seems outrageous. LISA GREEN, LEGAL ANALYST; Just as a caveat, they did not teach me this in law school. So I just want to send that out. They`re going a little rogue here. But it`s a serious crime, sex crimes in Florida. This is caught up in a statute that creates liability for much more serious behavior, right? I know if this couple knew what the consequences would be, it would have considerably cooled their ardor on that sand. HAYES: OK, right. Because I was doing some research today, and... Let`s just keep that shot up the whole time. CARLOS: Nice. Really... HAYES: No, I mean, you can understand why a guy might, you know, want to just show off a little bit. CARLOS: I think a lot of it is jealousy, though. I mean, apparently, they were doing what they were doing for a long time and then somebody is like, this is criminal! HAYES: This has been going on too long. You crossed the line. No, but in terms of the lewd and lascivious thing, that is the statute that, like, people doing super-creepy things like flashing. That`s what you get prosecuted under. That`s what that statute is designed for. The other thing, Jordan, that struck me about, this is another object lesson in the way the criminal justice system works is, you get nabbed, you get offered a plea, and if you don`t get a plea, you are going to get pounded. CARLOS: Take that... Watch your words! Watch your words! But, yes. We`re going All In on Chris Hayes. But, honest, I feel like sex on the beach is punishment enough. I know that. It`s not all that it`s cracked up to be, and there`s sand if places you didn`t think there would be sand. HAYES: So you think they`ve suffered enough? CARLOS: I think they`ve suffered enough. I think they really have. HAYES: But if you do -- so let`s say what the prosecutor obviously here is saying, like, don`t -- we`re not going to try to give them 15 years. GREEN: No, but the prosecutor wants to send a message to the good people of Florida. And that message is... CARLOS: The good people of... GREEN: ...get a room. HAYES: Right. OK, so everyone understands that message. My point here, though, is, so let`s say whatever they get. I think we -- do we agree like some community service. Like, they should not go to jail for this. CARLOS: They should not go to jail for this. HAYES: Can we agree that these people should not go to jail for this? GREEN: They`re already sitting in jail for this. I`m doubting the relationship is improving as they both sit in jail, I`m thinking that. Can I just make one more point about Mother`s Day, because, you know, it`s Sunday. Here`s a fantastic example of how great mothers are. The grandmother in this case, you know, the 3-year-old who witnessed something that you don`t want your kids to see, took the kid away, the great-grandmother videotapes the entire thing for evidence, right. I don`t know about your great-grandmothers, if mine were around, she would be like, what are you looking at? CARLOS: I have to say this, though, like, she taped the whole thing. Like, when did she turn that tape over to police? Like, when she was done. HAYES: This was clearly a spectacle. I mean, this was not -- this was a real spectacle. In fact, it`s funny, the 911 call, the woman is mostly concerned they`re going to get in a car and drive, because they`re so drunk. So actually the initial complaint isn`t even, you know, that... GREEN: By the way, isn`t this what the people of Bay Watch were supposed to do, like instead of policing? HAYES: This is the other point I would make, right, is that in terms of when we think about the law and when it`s applied, like, people have had public sex in this country and not faced 15 years in prison, right? This was a particular flagrant example of it. But, you know, it gets to this point of, like, you are at every moment, and not that you`re always having sex on the beach or anyone`s always having sex on the beach, maybe some people are, but at any moment, you`re breaking some law, whether you`re jay-walking or walking down the middle of the street, like you can always find some infraction, the question is like how hard the law is brought down on you, and it gets back to this idea, Lisa, to this idea that the way prosecution in this country works is, you get offered the plea and if you don`t take it, then you get something like this. GREEN: Prosecutors don`t like wasting their time, wasting a judge`s time... HAYES: ...on something like this. GREEN: Especially on a case like this. HAYES: Your being punished for wasting time. GREEN: But you know in fairness, look at the amount of evidence. You have got a great-grandmother testifying. I know what I saw, right? HAYES: That`s why they were convicted in 15 minutes. GREEN: The defense attorney doing his best in a "Better Call Saul" move, said, they were nudging each other. CARLOS: Didn`t she say, she was trying to wake him up in which... HAYES: And cuddling. CARLOS: It`s like, like, I wish I got woken up every day like that. I have to say -- mine`s a boring iPhone alarm. HAYES: Here`s the other part of this -- the other part of their problem is, they`ll have to register for sex offenders for life, which also strikes me as insane. I want to show this for a second. These are the states in which people can be put on sex offenders list for peeing in public. This is a real thing. There are states that you can be put on a sex offender list for peeing in public. There are states in which people are on sex offender lists for consensual sexual relationships when they`re under age and when someone is under age. So I`m 17, my girlfriend or boyfriend is 16, we have sex, the parents complain, we might be found -- I mean, and sex offender lists, let`s just be clear, Lisa, that`s life. That doesn`t go away. That`s for the rest of your life. GREEN: And it`s where you work. It`s where you live, and then it`s just, it`s on the internet and everyone... HAYES: It`s on a television station in Florida. There`s a -- someone told me this, a part-time Florida resident that I know, told me there`s a station in Florida that`s like a public access station that`s just pictures of the sex offenders. GREEN: And there are people watching it, I guarantee. CARLOS: This is like worse than some venereal diseases. This is terrible. It is not going away. HAYES: That is sort of the point, right. The point is that these people are ashamed forever. I don`t know. I don`t think we`re quite getting the balance right. Lisa Green and Jordan Carlos, thank you for your time. That is All In for this evening. The Rachel Maddow show starts right now. THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED. END