All In with Chris Hayes, Transcript 05/04/15

Guests: Catherine Pugh, Joseph Crystal, Art Spiegelman, Francoise Mouly,Michael Steele, Sam Seder, Josh Barro, Dick Durbin

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST (voice-over): Tonight on ALL IN -- BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Great work on the part of a whole lot of people. We`re taking another step forward. HAYES: The president addresses the unrest in Baltimore as more violence is reported and then retracted. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That officer drew his weapon and fired and struck the individual who was running away. SHEPARD SMITH, FOX NEWS: We were wrong. Our people on scene were wrong. HAYES: Tonight, what it looks like when Baltimore returns to normal. Then, the latest from Texas where two gunmen are dead after shooting at an anti-Islam gathering. Plus, bridgegate gets a court date. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I am an innocent man. HAYES: And fire up the fantasy draft board. A flurry of 2016 activity including announcement by Ben Carson by way of a gospel choir singing Eminem. (CHOIR SINGING) HAYES: ALL IN starts right now. (END VIDEOTAPE) HAYES: Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes. A very tense moment today in Baltimore on that city`s first full day after the curfew had been lifted. With the National Guard demobilizing and with city life, quote, "getting back to normal." At the main intersection of last week`s protest, there it was a report that Baltimore police had shot a black man. In fact, a FOX News reporter happened to be on the scene where the event occurred. Fair warning: much of this reporting was later retracted. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What has happened, Mike? MIKE TOBIN, FOX NEWS: Well, at about 2:45, we saw a guy running from the cops here right at the intersection of North and Pennsylvania where -- which has been the epicenter of the unrest here. And as he was running away, that officer drew his weapon and fired and struck the individual who was running away. And he ran right in front of us and I never saw the individual turn and do anything I would consider an aggressive act, but we did see the officer draw his weapon, and I counted one gunshot. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: FOX News was not alone in this reporting. As word spread across social media about a possible shooting, there were definitive- sounding tweets like this one from RT`s Manuel Rapalo. Quote, "I just saw a guy get shot. Police are clearing the scene and using pepper spray. I have no idea what`s going on." From "McClatchy", quote, "Shots fired by police in Baltimore outside CVS." On our network, a speech by President Obama in New York about a program to help young man of color turned into a split screen with aerials from Baltimore and the banner, President Obama speaks amid new reports of new Baltimore shooting. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) OBAMA: If they aren`t involved in the criminal justice system and aren`t suspended while they`re in school, we know they have a chance of doing better. JOY REID, MSNBC NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: We got about ten minutes from this location, and we`re informed there may have been a police-involved shooting. There is a big line of police who have lined up along Pennsylvania Avenue and down North Avenue. They`ve declared this a crime scene. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: A similar scene played out on CNN, split screen of the president speaking with police mobilizing on the streets of Baltimore banner underneath him. Then came the pushback from Baltimore police, which tweeted, quote, "The reports of a man being shot at North and Pennsylvania Avenue are not true. Officers have arrested a man for a handgun at the location." About 36 minutes after the initial report, FOX News, Shepard Smith, broadcast this. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SMITH: Baltimore police say reports of a man being shot at North and Pennsylvania are not true. Again, this is crossing on national wires right now. The reason they`re saying this is because we`re alone on this. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sure. SMITH: Our people happened to be right there when this incident, whatever it turns out to be, happened. It sounds to me like what`s happened is -- what`s happened is we screwed up, is what it sounds like. I can tell you one thing, Mike Tobin would never have been through this. Mike Tobin said he thought he saw somebody get shot. And there was a gun, and there was a patient on a stretcher, and there was a woman who said she saw the cops gun him down and there`s going to be violence and all the rest of that. And what we have is nothing. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: But as uncertain minutes ticked by, a crowd gathered at the scene and what we saw could have been another wave of grief and frustration. President Obama`s speech today acknowledged the challenges faced by police but also said, quote, "a sense of powerlessness and unfairness," end quote, which can fuel protests and unrest. What happened today in Baltimore, on the first day of the return to something that looks like normal suggests how tenuous that normalcy is, that facts can be so hard to definitely determine and it is easy to see how distrust can fill in those gaps. Joining me now, MSNBC national correspondent Joy Reid live in Baltimore tonight. And, Joy, that was a very strange, unsettling and uncertain scene. What do we know definitively now? What`s established at this hour? REID: Well, I can tell you, Chris, first of all, just to go back for a second to what you were saying -- this was probably the most tense and angry that I saw the corner of Penn and North in four days. I mean, people were immediately angry, as you said. But when we pulled up to that intersection, as soon as we got right to the intersection right after it had happened, I spoke with the sister of the young man who was frantically on the phone calling her mother, and she was saying, they`re saying that they shot him in the back. People were walking up and down the street saying they had shot him in the back. There was a lot of anger, real, deep-seated anger, palpable anger at the police. People were filming with their cell phones, taking pictures. Video was getting uploaded to social media as this accusation was sort of flying around among the crowd. The police, as your report said, fastened themselves along Pennsylvania Avenue, blocked off the street. They very quickly called a press conference and put it together to set the record straight. So, what we know as of now is that the young man was in fact arrested and was accused of having a gun. There are these security cameras that are up at Penn and North in different parts of the city that reportedly caught sight of a gun. According to police, they said there was a brief foot chase. The man was taken down. So, the video you saw of him on the ground, he was definitely on the ground. There is video of it. He was taken away in an ambulance. He did not want to go in the ambulance. But he was taken away in an ambulance out of an abundance of caution to check him to see if he was healthy enough for arrest. Police were insisting nobody was shot, that no officer discharged their firearm, and when the gun was recovered from the ground, it was missing one bullet in the chamber. Now, I am standing here with State Senator Catherine Pugh. If you could come on over, State Senator. And State Senator Pugh actually went to the hospital where the young man was taken and had an opportunity to actually speak with him. So, Senator, first of all, because I think a lot of people who have been tweeting about this and talking about this on social media who were concerned that he was shot, when you saw him, what was his physical condition, and could you determine had he been injured or shot? STATE SEN. CATHERINE PUGH (D), BALTIMORE: Let me just say I`m on the board of the University of Maryland medical system so I did go in, I did see the young man. He was fully examined. There was no physical injury from a gunshot. He was not shot. He was in tears, and I held him and asked him if he was OK, and he said he was worried. He wanted to see his mother. And that he was visibly upset. He said he was scared. The police were very gentle. And so I asked them if they would take him out so he could see his mother, and they let him out to see his mother. She hugged him. She wanted to know if he was OK, and he was OK. Again, very upset, and so I asked him what was next, and they said that he was under arrest, and so they took him into the paddy wagon. I actually walked back with him from him being with his mom, walked back with the police officers. They strapped him into the van. Before they strapped him in, they took off the metal handcuffs and put plastic handcuffs on him, told him what they were going to do. Put him in the van, and then made sure he was strapped in, and I told him that I would meet them at central booking. I went back out and I spoke to his mom and told her that I would go down to central booking to make sure that he arrived safely. And he did. And they told me that he is there and waiting to be fully booked at this point. REID: Right. PUGH: But, you know, again, visibly upset. And the thing that really bothered me about most of this is that rumors fly very quickly, and I did like the way the police handled the crowd that came out. They subdued the crowd and they left. And I think you saw that when the police left, the crowd sort of dissipated. But I think what Baltimore and the nation needs to know is that people are protesting all across the country, and we still have some visitors here in our town. I was in the senior building because we stopped by there just to make sure that they are feeling comfortable, and one of the things they were saying was that we were glad that folks protested and expressed their feelings, but we really want to get our community back. And as I said earlier, it`s not about returning to normal, because we want a new normal in that part of the city. REID: Yes. PUGH: But at the same time, I think people feel better about hearing the truth. REID: About hearing the truth. Chris, you`ve now gotten the definitive story about the senator who represents the area in question. And, indeed, it was a tense day but things are returning to normal, and as the senator said, things did calm down almost immediately once the police pulled out. That`s what we know. HAYES: All right. MSNBC national correspondent Joy Reid, thank you. Thank you both. Joining me now, Joe Crystal. He`s a former detective with the Baltimore Police Department. Joe, we talked to you on Friday night while down in Baltimore because you were someone who, in Baltimore, you were kind of a rising star. You were a detective, if I`m not mistaken. You had several promotions in a short span of time. And then you ultimately testified against a fellow officer who had beaten up (INAUDIBLE) and you say essentially run out of the department. That`s your basics of your experience with the BPD, right? JOSEPH CRYSTAL, FORMER BALTIMORE POLCIE DETECTIVE: Yes, sir. That`s correct, Chris. HAYES: Can you tell me what the mentality of that police department was? You`re still a police officer, you like being a police officer, my sense is. What was the mentality you encountered the culture of the Baltimore Police Department in the context of what we`ve got to imagine is a place just brimming with tension right now? CRYSTAL: Well, Chris, for one, I`ve said it plenty of times, I believe most cops are good and want to do the right thing. What happened in Baltimore was, unfortunately, that from the top down, you know, our commissioner, Commissioner Anthony Batts, he comes from Long Beach, California, where he ultimately had a documented history of not protecting officers to come forward and speak about police corruption. So, he brought that mentality over to Baltimore City, and basically the blue wall of silence, as you like to call it, was very strong. And as a result of that, because I spoke and testified about police brutality, I was ultimately run out. HAYES: What do you mean by that and how do you know that it was Batts that that was sort of setting the tone for that? CRYSTAL: Well, sir, like I said, there were other people in the middle, but I mean, for one, the commissioner was on the news talking about how he wanted to ensure I had a fruitful career and things of that nature, and ultimately, to this day, we still don`t know whatever happened with the so-called investigation. It took -- you know, Anthony Batts came in in 2012, and I was told that they were going to get to the bottom of it back then. They never took a statement from me until the end of May 2014, after the statute of limitations ran out on the individuals who harassed me and stuff like that. I mean, so you have to think about it. When you`re in a situation chasing a felony drug suspect blocks away from the CVS that burned, and you call and you have a felony foot chase with an individual selling drugs, then you don`t get backup from your own squad, what kind of message does that send? HAYES: Now, I want to go back to the incident that sparked this. You were in the western district, which is, of course, where Freddie Gray was arrested, where the CVS was burned is. The original incident is you basically chased a suspect who broke into the home of a woman who is actually the girlfriend of an officer on the force, and after that guy was apprehended in her house, what happened next? CRYSTAL: Actually, sir, it was in East Baltimore. But after he was apprehended -- but after he was apprehended, Chris, he was ultimately taken to the paddy wagon. At that time the sergeant and the off-duty officer, Anthony Williams, they had started to speak. I wasn`t paying attention to the conversation, I just heard Sergeant (INAUDIBLE) shake his head and acknowledge, and say something to Anthony Williams along the lines of, OK, I`ll take care of it. At that time, he called the wagon back, the suspect was brought back in that house. It was clear that the suspect didn`t want to go into the house, and from where I was at, I could hear the scuffle, I could here that incident going on. Later, he`s brought out. His shirt ripped open. He`s visibly limping. I found out later on that he had a broken ankle. The report was authored saying that they brought him back into the house so he could apologize. Anybody that was there, anybody that was in Baltimore knows, A, that type of thing doesn`t happen, and, B, Chris, that it doesn`t even pass the smell test. It was just horrible that they would do that. HAYES: This suspect was put in the paddy wagon, he`s being taken to booking presumably and then called back -- brought back into the house where in another room, you heard him you think being beaten by the officer who was the boyfriend of the woman whose house it was. CRYSTAL: That`s right, sir. And that officer was found guilty in court, along with the sergeant for misconduct in office. HAYES: Now, Anthony Batts was the commissioner at the time. You say you didn`t feel that he set a tone at the top, a culture that would protect whistleblowers. Were there officers there who came up to you and said, I think you did the right thing? CRYSTAL: There was some. One of my best friends still works there, and there were officers that did support me. But even one of my friends ended up ultimately having to be moved because he was -- they were trying to track him down to find out where I was moved after they put a rat in my car. So, it wasn`t just me that was affected. It was my friends, my wife. It wasn`t just me that was affected by these incidents. HAYES: In New York City, the tragic news of the death of Brian Moore. He was a New York police officer who was shot in the head. He has died. A reminder, of course, of some of the dangers that police officers face day to day. How much do you think this sense of being in a, quote, "war zone", of being in danger at all times, how much did that suffuse the Baltimore Police Department? How much was that part of the mentality and culture of that department? CRYSTAL: Well, first of all, the officer that lost his life. I mean, that`s horrible and that breaks my heart to see any person, cop or anybody, ever lose their life. But like to answer your question, sir, I think sometimes that officers, they somewhat, I guess, you know, become enthralled in the area they`re working in and they kind of bring themselves down to the individuals that they`re trying to protect the citizens from. I`ve spoken before about the chief -- I`m sorry, the president of the FOP telling me that this is blood in and blood out. Another thing I remember, in 2012, I was involved in a use of force scenario where I had to use force. Now, I`ve never received an award for any great thing I`ve done in the department. After my use of force, I had a sergeant come up to me and tell me it, hey, Joe, give me that information about your case. I`m going to put you in for an award. I told him, I said, I appreciate that, sir, but I don`t need an award for hurting somebody. There`s a million things I`ve done to get an award. I think sometimes that we almost sensationalize violence in the use of force. And I think that`s just a mantra that we need to get away from. That should be the last thing we do. HAYES: Joseph Crystal, former Baltimore police detective -- thank you for your time again tonight. I really appreciate it, sir. CRYSTAL: Thank you again, Chris. I`ve enjoyed being on. HAYES: All right. Still ahead, the latest from Garland, Texas where two gunmen attacked an anti-Islam event showcasing caricatures of the Prophet Mohammed. Stay with us. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HAYES: Every day here at ALL IN, we share things we`re really proud of or things we really love on our Facebook page. Once a week, every Tuesday, you`ll also find me there. I`m not sure if we`re that proud of me. But I`m there. So, tomorrow starting at Noon Eastern, I will be answering your questions. Just head over to Facebook.com/AllInWithChris. Ask me anything, as they say on the Internet. And while you`re there. Go ahead, hit the "like" button. We love it when you do that. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are going to move y`all into the auditorium here in just a minute. I just need everybody to remain calm, be kind of orderly, and we`re going to take you into the auditorium, a little further away from the front of this building, all right? AUDIENCE MEMBER: Were the suspects Muslim? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have no idea right now. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: Law enforcement officials have identified the two suspects shot dead last night in Garland, Texas, outside an event where people were invited to display caricatures of the Prophet Mohammed. Pictures obtained by the NBC affiliate in Dallas-Ft. Worth, identified 35-year-old Elton Simpson who was convicted five years ago of lying to FBI agents about his alleged plans to travel to Somalia and 34-year-old Nadir Soofi. Law enforcement officials said that he and Simpson were roommates. FBI agents searched a Phoenix apartment as part of the investigation into the shooting. And last night`s event was hosted by the New York-based American Freedom Defense Initiative which the Southern Poverty Law Center has called, quote, "an active anti-Muslim group". The event was set to culminate with a $10,000 art contest for the best cartoon of the Prophet Mohammed. Depictions of the prophet are considered offensive in many interpretations of Islam. Now, Pam Geller, president of the FBI, told the "Associated Press" before the event that she planned the contest to make a stand for free speech in response to outcries and violence over drawings of Muhammad. And in the wake of deadly attacks at "Charlie Hebdo" in January, the satirical paper that often printed the caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad, there were concerns last night about safety. "New York Times" reports the security included uniformed Garland police, school district officers and SWAT team and bomb squad officers and representatives of the FBI and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms and Explosives. All of that did not stop the men from opening assault rifles outside the event. According to a Garland police spokesman, the two suspects started shooting at a police car that was blocking the parking lot entrance. A school district security officer was shot in the ankle and a Garland police traffic cop returned fire, managing to kill both suspects. Now, around the time of the attack, Twitter message appeared under the name Sharia is light. It read in part, quote, "May Allah accept as mujahedeen. #texasattack." The account has since been suspended. Joining me now, Art Spiegelman, author of the graphic novel "Maus", which won a Pulitzer Prize in 1992, and Francoise Mouly, editor for "The New Yorker." It`s really wonderful to have you here. ART SPIEGELMAN, AUTHOR: Nice to be here, Chris. HAYES: Two people that have talked a lot about the cartoons and their political power, relationships to "Charlie Hebdo" -- I first want to get your response to this news from last night. SPIEGELMAN: Well, that sigh is about right, because, you know, the thing about free speech is it`s the right to be an absolute idiot. So, now, I have to support absolute idiots where I already was dealing with partial idiots at Penn. You see, Penn International had a bunch of writers bowing out of their gala fund-raiser because they were unhappy about "Charlie Hebdo" receiving a Courage Award. HAYES: That event is here in New York tomorrow night, if I`m not mistaken. SPIEGELMAN: Absolutely. HAYES: And a bunch said, look -- and obviously, it relates to what`s happening here, right? A bunch said, obviously, no one should be killed for any active speech. Obviously, we abhor that, but we don`t want to affirmatively praise the actual publication at issue and we are withdrawing from this gala that`s meant to celebrate. SPIEGELMAN: And what upset me -- FRANCOISE MOULY, THE NEW YORKER: And I think to some extent, it was also the fact that Penn is a writers organization, and some of the writers might not have felt that cartoonists are -- SPIEGELMAN: Yes, there`s a -- HAYES: A lesser form of expression. MOULY: It seems to be. In the U.S. you hear it. I don`t know if this kind of protest would have been launched about publishing some university`s writing or any writer`s writing. I think -- SPIEGELMAN: It doesn`t (INAUDIBLE) HAYES: Right. SPIEGELMAN: I think that Pam Geller`s group is sort of the bizarro anti-matter, as to opposite of all earthly things bizarro superman speaking. They are opposite of "Charlie Hebdo" that is not a racist organization, that is doing these things without an alternative agenda other than mocking all religions. HAYES: Right. SPIEGELMAN: But being very supportive of secularized Muslims and their role in society, whereas this group is a bunch of rabid ideologues who -- HAYES: Who I think genuinely and I think by their own admission, think that Islam is bad. They think it`s bad religion -- (CROSSTALK) SPIEGELMAN: The religion is evil. And they`re kind of pro-Zionist settlers and they`re making as much mischief as they can in a way different from "Charlie". So, I`m part between the two different kinds of -- HAYES: Right. So, here`s the point, right? I mean, I think a lot of people said -- I even had this feeling about "Charlie Hebdo" when it happened which was the attack itself seemed to me to almost kind of retroactively kind of ennoble the speech, right? If you`re staring down the barrel of a gun, as we learned "Charlie Hebdo" very much was, that lent this kind of gravitas, of course, to what they did. But I don`t necessarily want to say the same thing when I look at stuff spewed by Pam Geller, right? SPIEGELMAN: Yes, they`re different things. MOULY: The cartoonists and editors that were there are equal opportunity offenders. I mean, they do not discriminate and they certainly were not publishing cartoons just about Islam. So, a proportion of cartoons about Islam is actually minute. They had more about anti-Catholic cartoons and some far more anti-political cartoons -- SPIEGELMAN: Well, anti the national front and -- MOULY: The motto is to be stupid and mean. That`s how they define themselves. So, yes, they are provocateurs of a dialogue. HAYES: But I guess what my point is, we`ve had these conversations about freedom of speech, right, and we want to make some distinction between the principle of I will defend your speech no matter what it is, right? But they always end up -- we always end up at some place where we`re rendering substantive judgments about the speech. I mean, once you get past the idea that no one should be murdered for anything they draw, right? MOULY: Right, yes. SPIEGELMAN: That`s what upset me about the fair -- whatever it`s whatever it is. Pam Geller`s thing, whatever it is -- HAYES: That`s right. SPIEGELMAN: Movement for dissing Muslims. But whatever it is, there`s is done with a really awful intent, the very intent that the protesting writers at Penn attributed to "Charlie". HAYES: Right. SPIEGELMAN: So that`s why it has to be parsed. HAYES: That`s right. And yet at the same time, what it might -- I`ve seen some people say about the Pam Geller. And again, Pam Geller is someone that I really find odious, is an odious figure, right? But it comes down to why would you have this event, you know, to this provocation. My feeling in the wake of what happened last night is that it is important that they be able to have this event, right? I mean -- SPIEGELMAN: I would not give them the Courage Award. HAYES: That`s right. SPIEGELMAN: But I would protect their right to do this because free speech is a right -- HAYES: We have to be a place where people can do this. SPIEGELMAN: It`s the right to be an idiot. You have to be able to get it wrong and say it. MOULY: And it needs to be shown. The drawings have to be shown. You know, we are talking yet again, after the attacks on Danish newspaper, yet again after the attacks on "Charlie Hebdo", nobody shows the cartoon. Everybody talks about it, but, you know, there is a subscription here, the power of the cartoons. And if you look at the drawings, a lot of people who are talking about it may not have looked at the images. HAYES: Tomorrow night will be the gala. You are participating in it. Some people have withdrawn. You will be there and I believe the current editor, "Charlie Hebdo," will be there to accept this Penn Award. SPIEGELMAN: Yes. MOULY: And from critics as well. SPIEGELMAN: Yes, we signed on after other people signed off. HAYES: Yes. What is your hope about where this conversation goes next, I guess? Because now it has become almost this trope, right, because of what happened to Danish cartoons, because of what`s happened to "Charlie Hebdo", last night, if this button that people could push for easy provocation, "draw the Prophet Muhammad", right, without actually doing anything particularly -- SPIEGELMAN: Destructive. HAYES: Yes, exactly. SPIEGELMAN: I would say one thing Francoise said that`s worth noting, if the news media had shown these cartoons and just said, it`s not a problem for us to show them, we don`t mean any disrespect, there`s news values to these pictures, we have to understand them, then it wouldn`t have kept escalating. It just would have just been a given. HAYES: That`s interesting. MOULY: You know, I always want to see artists to be a dissent of the cultural (INAUDIBLE). Not, because they can actually pierce through all of this ambiguous bell, and in the images, let`s talk about it. Let`s actually discuss it. HAYES: We have to show this in order to be able to do it, although in this case -- SPIEGELMAN: It`s complicated. HAYES: Yes, it is. Art Spiegelman and Francoise Mouly, thank you both. Really appreciate it. SPIEGELMAN: Thank you. HAYES: As two of the accused in bridgegate plead not guilty, what their impending trial means for New Jersey Governor Chris Christie. That`s next. Stay with us. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HAYES: Today brought us a major step closer to a federal trial in the Bridgegate scandal, one in which the New Jersey governor and potential 2016 hopeful Chris Christie could be called to testify. Two principals in the scandal: Bill Baroni who was a top Christie appointee to the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, and Bridget Kelly, Christie`s former deputy chief of staff, pleaded not guilty today to nine counts of conspiracy fraud and other charges in connection with the closure of access lanes from Fort Lee, New Jersey to the George Washington bridge back in September 2013. Kelly, of course, sent the infamous email that helped blow open the scandal, "time for some traffic problems in Fort Lee." And the recipient of that email, David Wildstein, another former Christie appointee at the Port Authority has admitted to plotting with Kelly and Baroni to close the access lanes in retaliation against the Democratic mayor of Fort Lee who had declined to endorse Christie in his reelection bid. Wildstein pleaded guilty on Friday to two counts of conspiracy. Now, Baroni and Kelly both maintain they`re innocent and dispute Wildstein`s account. And, after his arraignment, they`re headed for a trial set to start on July 7th. We have a date. According to a Monmouth University poll release today, more than two thirds of New Jersey residents think Governor Christie has yet to be completely honest about what he knew about Bridgegate, and now we may very well have the opportunity to see him try to convince New Jersey residents otherwise. In open court, under oath, sitting on the witness stand. We`ll have much more coverage of Bridgegate ahead on the Rachel Maddow show. You don`t want to miss that. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HAYES: On Friday, I got a chance to sit down with one of the top Democratic lawmakers in the Senate, Illinois Senator Dick Durbin. In a wide-ranging conversation covering everything from the growing consensus in Washington on criminal justice reform to Hillary Clinton`s 2016 hopes and the roll Elizabeth Warren could play even from the sideline, to a bipartisan bill now being debated in the Senate that can empower congress to review a nuclear deal with Iran, which Republicans are struggling to get moving amid a slew of poison pill amendments. I even asked Senator Durbin of rumors of a feud between him and fellow Senator Chuck Schumer who is in line to take over from Harry Reid as the number one Democrat in the senate after Reid retires. Here is my extended interview with Illinois Senator Dick Durbin. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) HAYES: Hillary gave a speech where she basically said we incarcerate too many people and we need to choose a new path. Do you think it is becoming a kind of a central Democratic Party belief that we need to bring the era of mass incarceration to a close? SEN. DICK DURBIN, (D) ILLINOIS: The good news is it is a central belief that is bipartisan. Two years ago, I introduced the Smarter Sentencing Act which Secretary Clinton made reference to, to give judges in a specific category of cases -- drug offenses with no guns, no gangs, no violence, no terrorism, give the judges more authority to have lesser sentences, and I think that makes sense. We want to keep America safe, but we are not safer because we filled our prisons to a level that rivals any other nation in the world. This bill that I`ve introduced is a bipartisan bill co-sponsored by Mike Lee of Utah, Jeff Flake of Arizona, Rand Paul of Kentucky and Ted Cruz of Texas. So it is not a partisan measure, it has become a bipartisan effort. I hope we can get it enacted. HAYES: What changed? I mean, I remember in 1992, Bill Clinton went off the campaign trail to fly back to Arkansas to watch a man who had an IQ of, I think, about 80 be executed. He ran on being tough on crime, `94 crime bill, three strikes and you`re out, new categories of offenses. Was that the wrong thing to do back then? DURBIN: It was an overreaction. We wanted to end the threat of crime in our neighborhoods for our families and overreacted. Now we know better. Now we`re going to be smarter in the way we do this. Yes, bad people should be incarcerated, and they should be. And they shouldn`t be released until we`re confident that they are going to be safe in terms of their own conduct. But we`ve overdone it. We have filled our prisons at great expense, at the expense of prevention, at the expense of trying to eliminate poverty, dealing with education, so I think we`re trying to right the balance here and overcome the overreaction of years gone by. HAYES: One thing that`s been notable to me is that even before she had a challenger, Hillary Clinton has been running like she had a primary challenger from the left. DURBIN: It`s a lesson she learned eight years ago. She was the frontrunner. And along came this senator from Illinois, and ultimately was the winner. I don`t think Hillary is going to take anything for granted. The fact she hired John Podesta to manage her campaign I think shows that she is determined to put the right kind of leadership in this campaign. The fact that she took a van to Iowa was a small thing to many people, but a big thing in terms of the symbol of this campaign, that she`s getting down to ground level. HAYES: The primary process, the presidential primary process is a really useful moment in which a political coalition and a political party sorts out what it`s going to stand for, right? And we saw that in 2008. Huge debates about really small areas of policy -- will there be a mandate or not a mandate, right, what kind of tax cuts are we going to have, are we going to do in Afghanistan. Are you confident we can have the same process in 2016 without what appears to be something quite as competitive as what we had then? DURBIN: It remains to be seen who is going to get into this race. Elizabeth Warren said she will not be in the race. But I guarantee that she`ll be a factor in the development of issue positions whoever the Democratic nominee might be, most likely Hillary Clinton. We are going to have voices from the left, Bernie Sanders and others, Elizabeth Warren in congress, and others challenging our nominee to speak out on the critical issues about consumer rights and family opportunities in America. That`s the positive thing about a political campaign and I think is likely to bring us closer to the position where many voters will say well maybe this election might make a difference in my life. HAYES: My understanding is you`re about to meet with the foreign minister of Iran? DURBIN: Yes sir. HAYES: First of all, where is -- I mean, it`s your job to count votes. It`s one of your jobs in leadership. What is your sense of what the Senate is going to do in terms of the preliminary deal that`s been struck with Iran. DURBIN: The Republicans have proposed 67 amendments to our Rand legislation that came out unanimously out of the foreign relations (inaudible). Virtually all of them are designed to torpedo this effort, and to try and stop the negotiations. The first three votes were encouraging. They showed there were a substantial number of Republicans who had joined the Democrats in keeping the process moving forward in a consistent and stable way. I feel good about the outcome here, but I hope it ends soon so we don`t have to go through 67 amendments from every would-be Presidential candidate on the Republican side. We need to work to find a negotiated situation with Iran that guarantees, as best we can, that they`ll never be a nuclear weapon in that country. HAYES: Senator Tom Cotton has emerged as one of the most outspoken critics of both this and, I would say, broadly the President`s foreign policy. And there was a pretty remarkable moment this week in which he got into essentially a Twitter beef with the foreign minister of Iran. He was saying that he acted cowardly during the Iran Iraq War and, sort of challenging him to a debate. The former minister responding, sort of demurring a bit. I mean, what did you make of that? Is that appropriate behavior of a sitting U.S. Senator? DURBIN: It is pretty easy in my business to be provocative and to say things that might catch public attention. It takes a lot different person to try to negotiate through some dangerous and challenging issues, like the nuclear weapons in Iran. I think we need the kind of steady hand at the Presidential level and support at the Congressional level to reach that goal. Ultimately, Mr. Cotton, Senator Cotton has said that he envisions the possibility of a military attack and accepts it. That the United States would attack Iran. I hope to God that never happens. And, if cooler heads prevail, I hope that negotiations lead to the right outcome without U.S. military action. HAYES: Are you and Senator Schumer beefing right now? DURBIN: No, we get along just fine. Listen, we`ve been in congress together 32 years. We lived under the same roof for 22 years. HAYES: That does not foreclose the possibility of even more vicious animus. DURBIN: That`s not the case. We get along fine, and I`m looking forward to working with him. I told him I would support him to be the Democratic leader. I`ve checked with our caucus. I have strong support within that caucus. HAYES: To retain your position? DURBIN: To continue as well. (END VIDEOCLIP) HAYES: That was part of my interview with Senator Dick Durbin of Illinois. Two big announcements in the 2016 field can mean only one thing. It is time to check in on our draft picks. That`s up ahead. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HAYES: Two new candidates have entered the Presidential race, including one who put out a video, drawing a link between himself and none other than Abraham Lincoln. (BEGIN VIDEOCLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We need to revive the exceptional spirit that built America. First we must heal, and healing requires a leader with calm, unwavering resolve. Someone more concerned about the next generation than the next election. (END VIDEOCLIP) HAYES: Meet the newly minted candidate to release that video, complete with soaring bald eagle footage, next. (END VIDEOCLIP) (COMMERCIAL BREAK) (BEGIN VIDEOCLIP) CARLY FIORINA, FORMER HEWLETT PACKARD CHIEF EXECUTIVE: I`m getting ready to do something, too. I`m running for President. Our founders never intended us to have a professional political class. I`m Carly Fiorina, and I`m running for President. (END VIDEOCLIP) HAYES: Former Hewlett Packard Chief Executive, Carly Fiorina, announced she`s running for President today, with an announcement video that opened, oddly enough, with Fiorina watching Hillary Clinton`s Presidential announcement video from last month. It was, I think, an acknowledgment of one of Fiorina`s comparative advantages in this race. She is the only woman in the race for GOP nominations so far in a field that could soon include as many as 18 men. And she can attack Clinton without contributing to the optics problem that comes with a large bill of male candidates throwing darts at a woman who would be the first female President. Now, if you need a quick refresher on Fiorina, allow me to refer you to our All In Fantasy Candidate Draft Show. (BEGIN VIDEOCLIP) HAYES: Number 8, doing the diagonal. Number 8. Well, it`s a letter for Josh Barro. He needs it, he definitely needs it. He`s got Sarah Palin (inaudible). Carly Fiorina. UNIDENIFIED MALE: Carly Fiorina. She was the CEO of a company that makes printers, and now she`s ready to take on the paper jam in Washington, D.C. Don`t sleep on the demon sheep. It`s Carly Fiorina. JOSH BARRO, JOURNALIST: You know, I said in the break I was hoping for Carly Fiorina. I was joking, but apparently I was taken seriously. But you know, she`ll be good. I think her first act as President will be to overpay for Compaq, and we`ll go from there. (END VIDEOCLIP) HAYES: Great, nerdy mergers and acquisitions joke from Josh Barro. Now, Carly Fiorina was not the only candidate entering the Presidential race this week. Thus, not the only candidate generating points for our Fantasy Draft contestants. Former neurosurgeon -- well, I guess he`s still a neurosurgeon -- but former practicing neurosurgeon, Ben Carson, also jumped into the race with an event in Detroit. (BEGIN VIDEOCLIP) HAYES: Who are you going to get? Ben Carson. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ben Carson. He`s a retired world class neurosurgeon, recipient of the Presidential Medal of Freedom, and says Obamacare is the worst thing since slavery. He`s Dr. Ben Carson. Don`t applaud that. There`s no need to applaud that. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The last time that Republicans had this people in their primary field, everybody got to run up and take a turn in the spotlight, and I am hoping Ben gets to do that. (END VIDEOCLIP) HAYES: That`s the big question. There are now a bunch more points on the board in our Fantasy Draft. We`ll have three of our contestants right here to discuss the state of the race and the state of the rosters. That`s next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HAYES: Yes, that was a gospel choir rendering the Eminem song, Lose Yourself, at the opening event for Ben Carson, GOP Presidential primary candidate. Joining me now are three contestants from our All In Fantasy Candidate Draft to discuss the latest in the presidential race. MSNBC political analyst and former RNC chair Michael Steele, MSNBC contributor, New York Times national correspondent Josh Barro, MSNBC contributor, host of the Majority Report Sam Seder. All right, let`s go to the board before we do anything else. Most importantly, Josh Barro, I believe within like a second of someone leaking theory he was going to announce, emailed me and someone else on the staff saying, give me my points. I want my points. See Josh is laughing right now, but viewers at home should know he is taking this very seriously. This is not ironic participation in the fantasy candidate draft. BARRO: Why wouldn`t I take it seriously? HAYES: No. BARRO: I take issue with you putting that line through Bob Corker. I know he says he is not going to run, but that -- you know, he can always change his mind later and run for president. And I think he is going to. HAYES: It`s true. Warren could always change her mind as well. So, you`ve got 200 points. Let`s look at Michael Steele`s current standings. You`ve also got 200, but you`ve also got O`Malley basically rumored reports say that O`Malley is going to actually formally getting in in a few weeks. So, your positioned well. And of course I think clearly the frontrunner, Sam, let`s look at Sam`s points here -- he only -- Sam is trailing. He`s trailing. But we also -- we know Graham is going to get in and Jeb Bush. Jeb Bush might declare he`s actually running a day before the first primary. SAM SEDER, HOST, MAJORITY REPORT: I`m running the same campaign. I am holding my cards back so I can continue to fundraise and not be caught up in any type of election -- fair election law. HAYES: Yes, Michael? MICHAEL STEELE, FRM. RNC CHAIRMAN: Hey, Chris, I just want to know is there a waiver wire? Can I go to the waiver wire, please? HAYES: That would be great. We should do a waiver wire. STEELE: Yes, we should do a waiver wire. HAYES: Yeah, we should do a waiver wire and a trading deadline. Michael, can I ask you, what -- why -- I`m a more than merrier kind of person. I particularly feel that way about the Democratic field. Like run for president. It`s great. I`d love to see a lot of people run for president. But Carly Fiorina rationale here is a little elusive to me. STEELE: Why? HAYES: Because she`s never successfully won an election -- she is not... STEELE: You don`t have to successfully have won an election in order to do this. HAYES: Yes, you do. Do you think -- yes, you do, actually. Running for president is hard and you have to have won elections before. STEELE: It helps. It does help to actually know how a campaign works, we know that. No, I think the rationale is beyond the typical Washington, you know, pro forma. You`ve run for office before, you haven`t et cetera. I think what you`re seeing -- and I`m surprised you don`t see this on the Democratic side, quite honestly, I think you are seeing an opportunity here for people who are really trying to establish something with their base and be driven to this opportunity by their base. This is not an establishment based campaign. And the base doesn`t really look at that as a factor. Now will it be a factor in a year`s time? Probably. HAYES: Same, but who is... SEDER: First off, there`s two ways you can answer the question, what`s the rationale for this election? One is because I have a vision for the country, et cetera, et cetera. The other rationale works on the right far more than it does on the left, which is this is a great way to make money. I mean, it has been shown time and time again that when you run for president on the right, you build an e-mail list, you go around, you start a speaking tour. You go around... HAYES: I don`t think that`s why Carly Fiorina is running for president. (CROSSTALK) SEDER: But also it`s feeding the ego. I mean, it`s the same reason why Donald Trump sort of toys with the idea. He understands that from a business standpoint, this is building out his brand. So, she`s building a brand. Maybe she`s trying to run for senate again. (CROSSTALK) HAYES: Building a brand, building a list, building an organization. But here`s my question for Josh is, and I agree with what Michael is saying about sort of the base, right, like cultivating a base. And that`s a really important asset that`s somewhat portable after an election, right. You`ve got those names. You`ve got those lists. You`ve cultivated those donors. I don`t know, who is Carly Fiorina`s base? BARRO: In some way she is like Mitt Romney, right, except that Mitt Romney managed to win a governor`s race and she didn`t manage to win a senate race. but I think like... HAYES: And he also governed the state. I mean, that`s a big difference. BARRO: Right. But like a lot of people who reach high positions in business, Carly Fiorina I think believes I was a successful business leader and therefore I could be a successful leader of a country. Now first of all it`s a matter of significant debate whether Carly Fiorina was in fact a successful business leader. Her tenure at HP was very controversial and she ultimately got fired. But that also, you know, it`s not at all clear that those skills are directly transferable. That said, she`s far from the first person who made a lot of money in business to get the idea that that`s a qualification for the president. SEDER: Well, sure, I mean, Ross Perot I mean was also another one of those... HAYES: Right. And Ross Perot is a good example because I`m sitting here being like Carly Fiorina has never been elected to office. I mean, Ross Perot really came out of nowhere and was genuinely in the running. SEDER: 20 percent. STEELE: What about what`s his name on the left who runs -- ran perennially, the advocate for environmental and... HAYES: Ralph Nader? STEELE: Ralph Nader is another one who ran. SEDER: But what is the issue that Carly Fiorina is trying to -- what is she trying to promote? I mean, she -- I think it makes sense if like she wants to get that email list, she wants to meet some donors, she wants to go back to California and try and run for senate again. I mean from that standpoint it makes sense. But what... BARRO; I think it`s exactly the same set of issues as every other conservative candidate. HAYES: Which is part of the problem, which is what Michael said the last time we had -- we talked about this race, was actually -- no, Michael made the point which I thought was one of the sort of best things someone said is that peel it all away and the fact is there is not a lot of policy differentiation happening as this -- as the amount of contestants proliferates. BARRO: No, but I think it is -- I think you identified correctly that Carly Fiorina has an attacking Hillary Clinton schtick that plays well with the conservative base. HAYES: And she`s uniquely inoculated, I think. BARRO: Right, as Jess McIntosh pointed out in that clip, if everybody gets their turn as "flavor of the month,"that should be the thing that Carly Fiorina can ride into that. STEELE: But she also has vice presidential possibilities as well. HAYES: I guess that`s a fair point. STEELE: You`re thinking -- when you are thinking about the ultimate battle against Hillary, to have someone who essentially inoculates your nominee who can actually doggedly go after her, that`s a good spot to be in. HAYES: That is a very good point. There is a little bit of that probably going on. Michael Steele, Josh Barro, Sam Seder, well, the race continues. THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED. END