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All In with Chris Hayes, Transcript 04/07/15

Guests: Brian Hicks, Dorothy Williams, McKay Coppins, Richard Burt, BernieSanders, Michael O`Donnell, Aliyah Field

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST (voice-over): Tonight on ALL IN -- police officer charged with murder after a video shows him shooting a fleeing man in the back. We`ll have the latest on this still breaking story. Then -- SEN. RAND PAUL (R-KY), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We have come to take our country back. HAYES: Then there were two, Rand Paul declares for president. PAUL: Is there where we light up the phones? HAYES: Tonight, why Rand Paul`s campaign against the Washington machine is already in trouble. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Rand Paul`s got to prove that he will nuke a Muslim country if we have to. HAYES: Then, meet the Republican lawmaker banning food stamps on cruise ships. Plus, my interview with one of the activists who boarded an oil rig to stop drilling in the arctic. ALL IN starts right now. (END VIDEOTAPE) HAYES: Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes. A truly stunning piece of video which appears to show a white police officer shooting an apparently unarmed black man in the back multiple times has been released by "The New York Times." That officer has now been charged with murder. We will show the video momentarily. It surfaced just a few days after the police officer claimed to shoot the victim because he feared for his life. The incident occurred Saturday in North Charleston, South Carolina, after a traffic stop. The police officer, 33-year-old Michael T. Slager stopped a Mercedes Benz with a broken taillight, according to police reports cited by "The New York Times". The driver was 50-year-old Walter L. Scott. What transpired after Mr. Scott exited his car is the subject of the video. In Officer Slager`s account which he gave on Saturday, when the incident happened, Mr. Scott took the officer`s Taser, according to "The Times". Moments later, Officer Slager reported on his radio, "Shots fired and the subject is down, he took my Taser." The video we are about to broadcast taken by bystander and provided to "The Times", as well as other outlets, it appears, shows Mr. Scott running as Officer Slager fires as many as eight shots. (VIDEO CLIP PLAYS) HAYES: Moments later in the next piece of video, Officer Slager instructs the victim to put your hands behind your back. The victim appears unresponsive. And Officer Slager handcuffs him. Officer Slager walks away, and then runs back to the original spot, and appears to lean over the ground. (VIDEO CLIP PLAYS) HAYES: Finally, in this final piece of video, you will see at regular speed, and then in slow motion, as provided by "The Times", it appears to show the officer dropping something near Mr. Scott. This is the video of Officer Slager walking back to the victim in slow motion. The version the follows, "New York Times" says the officer appears to drop the stun gun near Mr. Scott. That`s the stun gun that he had run back to retrieve earlier in the video, or it appears he had ran back to retrieve. South Carolina law enforcement division arrested Officer Slager. His murder charge brings a possible sentence of 30 years to life in prison with the death penalty, state officials said in a new release. Joining me now, Brian Hicks of "The Post & Courier", the Charleston, South Carolina newspaper that is breaking news on this story all day long. Brian, thanks for being here. Brian, the mayor and police chief of North Charleston called a press conference today to announce the imminent arrest and charging of murder. Do you know when they became aware of the video and how they got their hands on it? BRIAN HICKS, THE POST & COURIER, CHARLESTON, SC: They -- Chris, they found out about the video just this afternoon when someone from the SLED, State Law Enforcement Division, showed it to them. In fact, I spoke to the mayor around 3:00 and he hadn`t seen it yet. But they knew what was in it and quickly made up their minds to fire the officer and charge him with murder. HAYES: The State Law Enforcement Division is essentially like state troopers, right, in South Carolina. And they also handled earlier prosecution or ongoing prosecution of a South Carolina police officer that shot a black man in a gas station that was caught on camera, as well. HICKS: Yes, they`re like South Carolina`s FBI. And they investigate all police shootings as a matter of policy in this state. It took them very little time to turn this one around. HAYES: I read contemporaneous accounts of this shooting on Saturday, I believe -- stories that posted the day after the shooting happened, and it said that the officer said he feared for his life. He had a lawyer at that point and I think he was speaking to the press. Did this get a lot of attention in North Charleston when the incident happened? HICKS: It has been pretty big news this weekend. There was -- we had it on our front page. All the news stations covered it locally. It is one of those things that tends to draw attention, the North Charleston Police Department over the years has been criticized by some community groups, saying that they racially profile people, that they use the excuse of minor traffic violations to pull people over and search them, and ultimately violate their civil rights. And we have never seen a case quite like this, however. HAYES: So, you`re saying there was longstanding grievances by certain -- elements of the community against the North Charleston police about police practices? HICKS: Yes, there have. And I`m not saying those are fair or unfair, but there have been questions over the years. And what Officer Slager did was basically give a lot of ammunition to those critics. HAYES: There`s also -- I believe I`ve seen reported that Officer Slager does have a few incidents in the past that were investigated and ultimately cleared of misconduct, including one suspect that Officer Slager tased him without provocation. Do we know anything else about his record? HICKS: That is really about the only thing we know of about his police record and he was exonerated in that case, apparently responding to a robbery call, and tased the victim of the burglary from what we`re told. I can`t tell you if that`s true or not. HAYES: But just to be clear, according to the mayor himself at the press conference today, it was to release the video or the acquisition of the video by the state law enforcement division and the showing to that to local authorities that resulted in today`s arrest and charge of murder? HICKS: That certainly sped up the process. There had been no call on what to do about the officer as of yet. He had been placed on administrative duty where he was working in the office, but I`m not sure what the evidence was going to show. But the guy had Taser tongs in his back. It`s hard to tase yourself in the back I would imagine. HAYES: Brian Hicks, thank you very much. Joining me on the phone is North Charleston City Councilwoman Dorothy Williams, who served for 22 years, I believe. Ms. Williams, thank you for your time tonight. DOROTHY WILLIAMS, NORTH CHARLESTON CITY COUNCILWOMAN (via telephone): Yes. HAYES: Your reaction to the arrest and charge of murder for Officer Slager today in the wake of the release of this video? WILLIAMS: I`m going to tell you, I feel for his family and the deceased family. But I am so happy at the SLED department finally did something right in not finding the police innocent. There had been too many times they have done things like this, and they have been found innocent. But it just so happens that somebody videotaped it, and there was no excuse anybody could have given. And knowing my mayor and my chief of police, they don`t take any wooden nickel. They would not cover up for any crime. And they say, hey, that`s it, you got to go, he did it. And I was so happy because you know, the last few months, you know, just too many killings of blacks, and they get by with it. And I never agree with a police department checking on another police department. Ninety- nine percent of the time they don`t find them guilty. And by the grace of God, somebody videotaped this and there was no way they could find this guy innocent. HAYES: Councilman, can you give us a little context for police community relations in North Charleston? Brian Hicks has just mentioned, there had been some complaints by some community members about the methods of policing. WILLIAMS: Of course, we are going to have that all over the United States. But I`m one of the council people that they call on a regular basis whenever they`re having problems. What I do, I listen to them, and I would call the chief office and say, look, there are five sides to every story. Let me give you their side. They immediately investigate and get right back with me. That is one thing I must say about our city. They don`t drag on it. They get right back with me. And like the gentleman said from "The Post & Courier", one of the main things, they stop cars and saying that the lights are out -- somebody didn`t put on their turn signal, and don`t let sometime a minority drive a nice car. It seems like sometimes it`s just automatic they`re doing something wrong if they have a nice car. But, you know, we have nice police officers, black, white, Hispanic, that have taken care of this city. But this is a message that should go out all over the United States. You will not continue to do this because now, because what happened three, four times in a row, our SLED department and I`m pretty sure every SLED or whoever does the investigating, they know they have to do the right thing. That`s how I feel. But we have a wonderful mayor and a chief of police. And they are always there when I call them about complaints, I always get a response right back. HAYES: Councilwoman Dorothy Williams of North Charleston, thank you very much for joining us tonight. I want to just reset for folks that might be joining us. Some breaking news tonight, a tape has emerged published by the "New York Times" and other outlets, an incident in which an officer, 33-year-old Michael Slager of North Charleston, South Carolina, where a woman you just heard, Dorothy Williams, is a councilwoman, after a traffic stop of the man, Walter Scott, 50-year-old Walter Scott, for a broken taillight on his Mercedes Benz apparently got out of the car. There was an interaction between the two, and a video released showing Officer Slager firing at a fleeing Walter Scott, at least eight times in the back, ultimately shooting and killing him, subsequently a series of movements, handcuffing what looks to be a dead body, after barking at him to get his hands behind his back, also appearing to go and retrieve a Taser, which was down far away and bring it back and toss it on the ground near the deceased man, Walter Scott. In reaction to that video, the local authorities in North Charleston have arrested and charged Michael Slager with murder. Joining me now, MSNBC national correspondent Joy Reid who`s been following the story, who`s been in contact with representatives of Walter Scott`s family. Joy, great to have you here. Thank you. JOY REID, MSNBC NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Thanks for having me. HAYES: I want to play for a second the 911 tape, because you can get a sense of the account the officer was giving to the dispatch, to his lawyer, to the press, to others as compared to the tape. Here`s the 911 call. (BEGIN AUDIO CLIP, 911 CALL) OFFICER: 223 Dispatch, shots fired. Subject is down. He grabbed my Taser. DISPATCHER: Additional (INAUDIBLE). Shots fired. He grabbed your Taser. Subject is down at 9:38. ANOTHER OFFICER: 34 copy, I`m en route. DISPATCHER: 23-4, 9:38. (END AUDIO CLIP) HAYES: So, obviously, the grabbing of the Taser was the immediate response. If in fact what the video shows is him retrieving the Taser and planting the evidence near him, it goes to the frame of mind of the officer about what he had just done. REID: Yes, absolutely. If you look of the totality of the video, there is a point in which he appears to notice the person who`s taking the video, as well. He seems to look over and it`s not clear whether he saw that person taking video or not, but it definitely does appear -- and a second officer does come and kneel down over Walter Scott, and appear to attempt to render some kind of aid at that point. Officer Slager also points his fingers at the neck of the man who is obviously, as you said, inert on the ground, who he had also handcuffed earlier. And what the representatives of the family are saying is that for multiple days, for up to four days, the officer continued to tell the story that Walter Scott posed some sort of a danger to him, that he felt threatened for his life -- HAYES: Feared for his life. REID: Feared for his life, and that Walter Scott grabbed for his Taser gun. That was the story that the officer was telling, including his original attorney. The video obviously appears at least to contradict that. HAYES: We should also say, do we know the chain of custody of this video? It is remarkable, truly horrific and upsetting piece of video. REID: Yes. HAYES: It was an act of tremendous courage and bravery by the person who took it to keep taking it and to turn it over I believe to the family of Walter Scott. REID: Yes, the family or their legal representatives are in possession of the video. It`s not clear who took the video, obviously, or how it came to be in the hands of the family, but the fact is this person came forward and directly contradict the story the officer was telling. Now, the original traffic stop, there was some reporting saying that Walter Scott might have fled from the officer because he had some sort of outstanding warrants related to child support custody, but certainly not somebody who was accused of a violent crime. This was a tail light, this was traffic stop essentially. And the video clearly shows the distance between him and the officer. The fact that he is facing away, his back is to the officer, and there is so much that contradicts that original story that I think that`s why we`re seeing the charges now. HAYES: I do want to show, we`re not going to show this on loop, but I do want to show this video one more time because it is important for what the video shows. Particularly as it diverges from the account the officer gave. Take a listen. (VIDEO CLIP PLAYS) HAYES: The other thing, two things occur to me. One is that it could be entirely possible, I mean, I know we talked about the shooting of Tamir Rice. There is a police account that was very different once we saw the video. REID: Right. HAYES: There was a shooting in South Carolina at a gas station, the police account very different than what we saw in the video. There`s, of course, the shooting of Michael Brown, which there is no video and different judgments have been rendered about what actually happened there. The key thing I think to see in this video is that it could be possible that he did grab for the Taser at some point. And that also, what happened subsequently was not justifiable. REID: Yes, the question here and I want -- HAYES: In fact, that might be what you`re seeing in that. REID: Right. You don`t know what you`re seeing and I would be interested in knowing what the status of the fleeing felony rule is in the state of South Carolina. There was -- I believe those laws have been done away with largely throughout the country, because there used to be a fleeing felon rule that allowed an officer to fire if you were running away from them. That is not the case in most states. And I think even if something happened and there was an altercation, when they were close together and could have posed some sort of a danger to the officer, once he is that distance away and clearly fleeing, then the question would be, is there some sort of fleeing felony rule in place that would allow the officer to still claim that`s a justified shooting. HAYES: And, of course, what haunts all of this -- what hangs over all of this is the thought of what video we would see if every single officer involved shooting had video as crystal clear as this. REID: And what would happen if there were no video. I mean, imagine if no one there would get this account. There was a second officer there but he didn`t appear to see anything. HAYES: Joy Reid, always a pleasure. Thank you. REID: Thank you. HAYES: There`s other news to report tonight. We now have two official candidates for the highest office in the land. Who will stand with him? That`s ahead. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HAYES: Very big news today in the most important context in the country. I speak, of course, of the ALL IN 2016 all in fantasy candidate draft, that`s because another candidate has officially declared, racking up points for the contestant who has the candidate who has officially declared. And I know you`re on the edge of your seat about who could this person and a woman be? I`m going to tell you all about it, ahead. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) PAUL: I have a message -- a message that is loud and clear and does not mince words: we have come to take our country back. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: There are now two, officially, Republicans running for president of the United States. Earlier today, Rand Paul announced his candidacy to an enthusiastic crowd. And unlike Ted Cruz, Paul`s crowd seems to have come by their own free will. Paul, also unlike Cruz, had purchased his own domain name when he launched his candidacy, always a good move, while still support President Obama, immigration reform now., on the other hand, is a bit like a hipster prepper Ikea, you can buy basically everything you need for your life, and Rand Paul theme, everything from an unleash the dream beer sign to an NSA spy cam blocker, which will help Paul supporters stop hackers in the NSA, safe and practical. Clicking through, one might think he really is different, that he`s out to defeat the Washington machine, as a sign to day`s speech read. Rand Paul does know a thing or two about the Washington machine. His father ran three campaigns in some ways very successful presidential against it. But if you squint your eyes a little bit, you can see that Rand Paul is doing just the opposite, running head first into becoming part of the machine. The younger Paul worked very hard earlier today to strike all the right notes, a little something for every constituency, for his libertarian supporters, Kentucky Republican threw out some anti-surveillance red meat. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) PAUL: I say that your phone records are yours. I say the phone records of law abiding citizens are none of their damn business. Is there where we light up the phones? The president created this vast dragnet by executive order. And as president on day one, I will immediately end this unconstitutional surveillance. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: With Tea Party populists who helped first elect Paul, he railed against cronyism. And for the foreign policy hawks, he`s trying to placate at this moment, he made sure to frame his anti-foreign aid sentiment as a screed against radical Islam. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) PAUL: It angers me to see mobs burning our flag and chanting "death to America" in countries that receive millions of dollars in our foreign aid. I say it must end, I say not one penny more to these haters of America. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: Paul`s speech was very well-crafted attempt to please his base, while appealing to the run of the mill Republican voter. He largely pulled it off. But here`s the thing: if you scratch the surface, what he actually provided wasn`t anything close to a plan to defeat the Washington machine. It was just pretty standard Republican fare. Joining me now, McKay Coppins, senior political editor of "BuzzFeed", author of the forthcoming book, "The Wilderness". And, McKay, you were there today. I mean, it seems that look, his father really was a different kind of Republican, really, really different. Got up there and talked about anti-imperialism in Republican primaries and drew boos. Rand basically has to keep that base, which he essentially inherited his father`s machine, while not alienating the median Republican voter who basically wants nothing to do with the full Ron Paul agenda. MCKAY COPPINS, BUZZFEED: Yes, it`s interesting. I was actually struck by this speech, to the extent at which he was trying very hard to make sure that his libertarian base was still there for him. I reported this morning at "BuzzFeed" that for the past two years or so, inside Rand Paul`s camp, there`s been a debate about what their primary coalition is. Is it the liberty base plus establishment mainstream voters or is that the liberty base plus evangelical Christians? They basically haven`t made a decision. They basically decided to go for all of it, which is why you see some of the tension that you noted on your opening there, because a lot of the event here was trying to kind of shoehorn libertarian ideals, which have been central to his platform all along, into a message that would appeal broadly to the foreign policy establishment, the neoconservative/establishment, and kind of the mainstream establishment of the Republican Party. It`s going to be a tough sell. It`s going to be a very uphill battle for the next year or so. HAYES: Well, here`s my prediction. I think he will basically jettison any of his anti-militaristic inclinations he had, anti sort of imperial inclinations who came from his father, who again, whose campaign he managed. It isn`t just that, you know, they share the same DNA. He has to answer for his dad. Like he has his base, he managed his campaigns. I think he`s just going to jettison that, isn`t he? COPPINS: Right. Well, I mean, you`ve already seen it in the past, since he got to the Senate, he`s gotten -- he`s made several policy concessions to the foreign policy establishment of the Republican Party. And it`s kind of a tragic story for him politically, because he`s made all these concessions and the -- at the expense of the libertarian base, which even Jesse Benton, who was his 2010 campaign manager, told me, you know, he can`t count on him being as fired up, in part because of those thing. But at the same time, he really hasn`t won over huge swaths of the Republican establishment yet. They still see him as very suspicious. So, he`s kind of in this no man`s land where the activists aren`t happy and then the establishment isn`t happy, either. So, we`ll see which direction he ends up going, but I think he probably has to choose one side or the other and just grab it all the way. HAYES: Yes, the neocons hate that dude much so much. No natter what he says, no matter how much he recant. McKay Coppins, astute as always. Thank you for being here. All right. Speaking of foreign policy, joining me now is Richard Burt, foreign policy adviser of Rand Paul. He`s former ambassador, served as chief arms control negotiator under George H.W. Bush. Ambassador, I would love for there to be a Republican in this field who articulates a vastly different alternative foreign policy, but I can`t for the life of me identify what that is when we`re talking about Rand Paul at this moment. AMBASSADOR RICHARD BURT, FOREIGN POLICY ADVISOR TO RAND PAUL: Well, Chris, I don`t know what you mean about a vastly different foreign policy. I think what he did in his speech today and what he`s been doing for the last six months or 12 months is talking about, I would say, a fairly traditional Republican foreign policy. He has described himself as a common sense conservative realist. So, he`s not a neocon. He doesn`t throw red meat to that base. Instead, I think he identifies more with an effective and successful foreign policy that Republican presidents have pursued in the past, whether you start with Eisenhower or you go to Ronald Reagan or George Bush, H.W. Bush, or Bush 41. He is never identified with isolationism, but at the same time, he doesn`t support a policy of open-ended military interventionism. He talks about kind of smart interventionism, where we`re prepared to use force to protect our vital interests, but not purse peripheral interest. HAYES: But if that`s the case, Ambassador, if you are articulating that vision, there`s going to be a lot of people in the field and, you know, Rand Paul, eye doctor, senator from Kentucky, not a tremendous amount of foreign policy experience. What you are describing sounds like the middle of the bell curve of Republican opinion. Why do I vote for him on that? BURT: Well, I don`t think it is, as you describe it, the middle of the bell curve. In fact, I would argue that -- and I`ve been working with Senator Paul for almost two years. I think he`s probably the best prepared of all the Republican candidates, because he`s read more, he`s thought more, and he`s talked to a number of people and listened to a number of different points of view. HAYES: So, then, could you give me a concrete example of that? BURT: Sure. HAYES: Yes, please. BURT: Absolutely. He has criticized, for example, the Obama administration for intervening in Libya without a plan, after the fall of the Gadhafi government and the death of the dictator, not having a plan the day after. HAYES: John Boehner has done the same thing. The entire Republican Party has done that. BURT: Well, at the same time, he`s supported the use of air power against ISIS in Iraq. HAYES: Every Republican in Congress does. BURT: And has been unwilling to intervene, like some Republicans wanted to do, in Syria, because we have no allies in Syria. It`s a choice between the Assad regime or al Qaeda or ISIS. So, when I talk about smart intervention, he`s thinking about where we can make a difference, but it`s no not the kind of open ended interventionism on the one hand that some support. And it`s not the isolationism that increasingly people argue he represents. I think what it certainly not a bell curve. I think he`s distinguished himself as having a smart approach to an effective foreign and defense policy. HAYES: I do think smart is better than dumb, I think we can agree on that. Ambassador Richard Burt, thank you for being here. BURT: Thank you. HAYES: How an mayoral election today in Chicago is a preview of what 2016 is going to be like for Democrats. I`ll explain next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HAYES: Minutes ago, the polls closed in Chicago`s first ever mayoral runoff election, putting incumbent Rahm Emanuel, who failed to reach 51% in the last election back in February against the challenger from the left, Jesus "Chuy" Garcia. Few people expected the politician nicknamed "Rahmbo", a long standing member of the Democratic establishment, close ally of both the Obamas and Clintons, to find himself in this position. The mayoral race has exposed deep dissatisfaction with his leadership. Progressive activist, labor unions, grassroots, community groups, just average citizens rallied around "Chuy" Garcia, who emerged as Chicago`s` great left hope. A plausible alternative to what many see as a culture of chronism and indifference inside City Hall. With Emanuel increasingly prioritizing city administration while shutting down dozens of schools which infuriated lots of residents, and letting economic inequality fester. Rahm`s even gotten a new nickname, Mayor 1%. This is a guy who`s close personal friend with Illinois Republican governor, former private equity manager, Bruce Rauner, and whose biggest donor is a billionaire investor and self subscribed Reagan Republican, who said he felt the rich had insufficient influence on the political process. The race has came to symbolize a larger battle within the Democratic party, between the donor behold and establishment and progressive populace, and it`s made "Chuy" Garcia a national figure. Earning an endorsement last week from Vermont senator, Bernie Sanders, who is is, himself, considering a challenge to the establishment on the national level. Thanks in large part to the huge amount of money behind Rahm Emanuel`s bid, $30 million compared to $5.2 for his opponent, the incumbent is widely expected to win tonight. Recent polls have shown the double digit lead, but having a progressive challenger has forced Rahm to be accountable to constituents, and that raises some tough questions for Democrats in 2016. What if they hold an election and only one candidate with a huge amount of big money shows up? I`m joined now by Senator Bernie Sanders (inaudible). Why did you go out to Chicago to endorse "Chuy" Garcia? SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I), VERMONT: Because A, I like him and B, I was impressed by the strong grassroots working class movement that he put together, and furthermore, I was not happy to see a situation where the billionaire class is supporting a candidate, and I worry about what this means for our country. Whether a candidate representing working people can actually win elections any more when the billionaires are prepared to spend endless amounts of money. HAYES: Here`s the problem that people will say about "Chuy" Garcia is, okay, fine, you leftes, you don`t like the billionaires and you don`t like the establishment. You got to show you can governor. You got to show you can get in there day one, Chicago`s a big city, "Chuy" Garcia didn`t meet that in the debates, and I think the same thing happens for presidential elections. I mean, if you`re running for President, run for President. Run to take the nuclear football, and to run the damn country. Right? SANDERS: Right. And that`s right, and that`s why anyone running for President, anyone running for the mayor has got to have a strong agenda. And at the top of that agenda is the issue of incoming wealth and inequality, and the fact that we right now are seeing a situation where 99% of all new income goes to the top 1%, and with Citizens United, with the billionaire class now exerting an enormous impact over our political life. HAYES: But, here`s the thing. I look out across the 2016 landscape, across the Democratic party, and in Chicago I know a lot of those folks from back when I was a reporter there, that were working around "Chuy" Garcia. There was, you`re right, strong infrastructure around him. I see nothing nationally for Democrats right now. It is a barren landscape and Hillary Clinton. SANDERS: Let me respectfully disagree. I was just out to the West coast. I was in L.A., and San Francisco, and I was in Las Vegas, and I was in Chicago, and I was in Austin, Texas. And, let me tell you something, I mean, all together thousands of people came out because they do want to hear a progressive message. There is huge discontent with the status quo. There is an understanding that we need a massive jobs program, that we should not be the only country or major country without a national health care program. People want to see fundamental change, and they know that this country is now moving in the wrong direction. HAYES: Okay. That may be true. SANDERS: That is true. HAYES: It is true, but Chicago obviously doesn`t stand internationally, but in Chicago it is a good example, people really were discontent. Right? I mean, the question is, if people are yearning to hear someone say to them look, here`s what we can do, here`s a vision for median wages going up, for you having more money in your pocket, someone`s got to be able to give them that message and have the organized -- SANDERS: Well, go to my website and you`ll find the 12- point proposal, which calls for creation of millions of new jobs by rebuilding our crumbling infrastructure, which calls for raising the minimum wage to a living wage, which calls for dealing with the over time scandal, which calls for a national health care program guaranteeing health care to people, which calls for the breaking up of Wall Street banks. How`s that for a start? HAYES: It`s a good start. Are you going to run? SANDERS: Well, we`ll make a decision pretty soon. HAYES: If you do run, you`re going to, are you going to run for real is my question? SANDERS: Yes. There`s no question about that. Look, what`s at stake here is not my ego. What`s at stake is the fact that millions of people are struggling. They`re working longer hours for low wages. They want real changes in this country. If I run, it is for real. HAYES: Senator Bernie Sanders, always a pleasure. Alright, why does the state of Kansas want to ban anyone on welfare to using it on cruise ships, in lingerie shops, or to go to movies? We`ll ask a Republican law maker pushing the bill next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HAYES: One of the great scourges in the Conservative mind is the welfare cheap, the idea that there are people around sucking on the government teat while the rest of us are working hard. And now Kansas, the legislature, wants to make sure that recipients of temporary assistants for needy families, or TANF, don`t waster your money. House Bill 2258, version of which has now passed, both the Republican controlled House and the Republican controlled senate in Kansas state the following, no TANF cash assistant shall be used in the retail liquor store, casino, gaming establishment, jewelry store, tattoo parlor, massage parlor, body piercing parlor, spa, nail salon, lingerie shop, tobacco paraphernalia store, vapor cigarette store, physic or fortune telling business, bail bond company, video arcade, movie theater, swimming pool, cruise ship, theme park, dog, or horse racing facility, parimutuel facility, or sexually orientated business or any retail establishment which provides adult orientated entertainment. The Kansas governor, Sam Brownback is expecting to sign the bill, and joining me now from Wichita, Kansas, one of the bills advocates, Republican state senator, Michael O`Donnell. Senator, can you you point me to the data that you have in the state legislature, that shows that this is a problem, that folks are spending lots of their TANF money of the things you have listed. MICHEAL O`DONNELL, STATE SENATOR: Well, first off, Chris, thank you very much for having me on your show tonight. I have enjoyed watching you over the last number of years since you`ve been on MSNBC. What we know that there is hard evidence that their is individuals on TANF have used that money in casinos, in strip clubs, at liquor stores, tobacco shops. TANF stands for temporary aid for needy families. HAYES: No, I understand what it is, but I`m just asking if, when you say there is hard evidence, we`re talking anecdotal evidence or like, a body of data that says, we`ve got numbers that show a big portion of the money that`s going is being spent on these things. O`DONNELL: We never said a big portion was being spent on these things -- HAYES: So, you don`t have any specific data? O`DONNELL: No, we do have data. We absolutely do have data that money was used. And, Kansas Watchdog compiled a great list of evidence that showed where this money was being spent. HAYES: What percentage was being used on cruise ships? O`DONNELL: There is fraud in the system, Chris. Well, cruise ship, that was just more structurally put in place because the cards aren`t good outside the state of Kansas. So you`ll use this money in the state of Kansas. HAYES: But then are there a lot of cruises happening outside of Topeka. O`DONNELL: Well, absolutely. There`s cruises every day. Carnival Cruise, Wichita has Royal Caribbean Cruise Line, we`ve got a headquarters here for that. So, obviously people from across Kansas use cruise ships all of the time, Chris. HAYES: Let me ask you, one of the things in this list is the lingerie store. And, I mean, this sounds silly but it`s a genuine question. Why do you care where people purchase underwear? My understanding is, under the current law, if you buy underwear in a lingerie shop, you can`t do that, but if you buy it somewhere else you can. Should the government care where people buy underwear? O`DONNELL: Well, Chris, I know that there`s a lot of items that people can look at this bill and sensationalize, like the cruise ship or like lingerie shops. TANF is really made for the necessities of life, for the gas in your car, for food, for utility payments. HAYES: But senator, with all do respect, I understand what it`s for, but I didn`t write the bill to put lingerie shops and cruise ships. So, if you feel like those are sensational, you guys didn`t have to put that in the bill. O`DONNELL: Well Chris, we know that the money has been used in all of these different locations. But what we want to make sure that people are doing is getting quality of life services that the state of Kansas provides. Degree completion program was the main impotence of this. We, last year, had over 6,000 recipients get off TANF get off of TABF and into the workforce. 6,029 Kansans, that didn`t have a job last year, have a job today, thanks to some of these reforms and these policies. HAYES: I notice that firearms are not on the list, can you buy a gun with TANF money? O`DONNELL: No, you cannot buy a gun with TANF money. We do not restrict everything that you can and can`t buy, but really, what this is trying to do is nail down what TANF is made for, to get more people off of government assistance and into the workforce. HAYES: The final question about government assistance, $16 billion in farm subsidies have gone to Kansas between 1995 and 2012, that`s government assistance, is it fair to ask all those recipients to abide by this same list. O`DONNELL: I believe that those recipients on the Farm Bill, that have CRP or whatever, that they`re receiving that, Chris, and they`re abiding by the rules set in place by the federal government. I thank God every day. We have Pat Roberts in Washington, DC, agricultural chair, Senator Roberts is a friend of mine, and I know that he cares about people of the state. HAYES: I look forward to the Kansas state legislature restricting those farm subsidy dollars. Kansas State Senator, Micheal O`Donnell, thank you for coming on, you`re a good sport, I appreciate it. O`DONNELL: Well, thank you very much, Chris. HAYES: After Edward Snowden made a surprise appearance in a Brooklyn park yesterday and was was hastily removed by authorities, he showed up again. An explanation, next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HAYES: Alright. What if i told you that Obi Wan Kenobi made an appearance in a Brooklyn park recently? You might be skeptical. But, it was almost an Obi Wan Kenobiesque appearance in a Brooklyn park recently, and I`ll explain all that, ahead. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HAYES: Alright, I just said Obi Wan Kenobi, but it was Princess Lea, sorry, sorry. I`ll explain. We brought you the story last night. A group of artists installed a 4 foot, 100 pound museum quality bust of that of say whistle blower Edward Snowden in Brooklyn`s Fort Greene Park early Monday morning. Since the bust was unauthorized, authorities quickly covered it with a tarp and took it down Monday afternoon. The unknown artist who created the statue, which clearly took a lot of work, a lot of websites to document the installations, which meant the media reported on it, probably precipitating the bust getting taken down in the first place. Following, if the artists hadn`t told anyone, maybe the bust would have sat up there much longer. But, after we got off the air last night, another group of artists had something up their sleeves. The replaced the bust of Edward Snowden with a hologram of Edward Snowden projected onto the same pedistol. This new group of artists, who collectively call themselves The Illuminators, said in a statement, quote, inspired by the actions of these anonymous artists, our feeling is while the state may remove any material artifacts that speak in defiance against incumbent authoritarianism, the acts of resistant should remain in the public`s consciousness. No word yet on whether NYPD`s intelligent division is investigating the hologram incident like they are investigating the bust incident. All right, activists scale an oil rig in the Pacific Ocean and set up camp to block Arctic drilling. We`ll talk to one of them on the phone, in the middle of the water, next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HAYES: As we covered extensively on this show, environmentalists in Seattle have been trying to stop a deal to allow Shell to use the Port of Seattle as a staging ground for its Arctic oil drill. Shell has reportedly spent more than $4 billion on it`s efforts to drill in the Arctic, but its Arctic drilling has been suspended since 2012, following a series of costly and embarrassing accidents. Last week, the Obama administration reaffirmed Shells right to drill in the Arctic, paving the way, finally, for Shell to resume exploratory drilling in the Chukchi Sea of the coast of Alaska this summer. Early last month, Shell began transporting one of its Arctic drilling rigs from Malaysia, in route to the staging ground in Seattle in preparation for the resumption of drilling. But Green Peace was not going to let that happen without a fight. Six environmental activists traveling in a Green Peace vessel called The ship followed the rig, and yesterday when The Esperanza, followed the ship carrying the rig across the Pacific Ocean, and yesterday, when the rig was about 750 miles Northwest of Hawaii, the activists boarded inflatable boats, and approached the rig, where, in the dramatic scene, they used climbing equipment to get inboard. The six activists are now effectively camping on the rig as it continues to travel across the ocean, its now North of Hawaii. In a statement to All In, Shell says that it filed a complaint against Green Peace in federal court in Alaska and that it is seeking an injunction to, quote, end the illegal boarding currently taking place on the Pacific Ocean, and to prevent such actions in the future. A short time ago, I spoke to one of the activists currently on the rig, Aliyah Field, and asked her to describe the scene. ALIYAH FIELD, ENVIRONMENTAL ACTIVIST: Well, we are, as you said, in the middle of the Pacific. It is a clear, sunny day and the ocean is incredibly blue. The wind is picking up a bit. I`m here with my five teammates from all over the world, and at the moment, we also have a small (inaudible) inflatable in the water with a handful of more crew from The Espiranza. And, it looks like we have a deck crew out for The Blue Marlin. HAYES: Have you communicated with the deck crew? What are those interactions like? You haven`t precisely hijacked their vessel, but you`ve made yourselves uninvited guests. FIELD: Yes, we invited ourselves to the rig, that`s for sure. We actually haven`t set foot on The Blue Marlin itself. We haven`t had any direct contact or any communications with the crew ourselves, but they certainly have been out and taking an interest in us, and from the body language it`s been fairly friendly. HAYES: Do you guys have -- I want to ask sort of what the end game here is in a second. But just, do you have enough food and water to last for a while? I mean, are you going to make it to Alaska in the, just out in the open? FIELD: Well, we came on board with about 24 hours of provisions. We have since gotten two resupplies from The Espiranza. We are able to take on more gear from the smaller inflatable boats to the anchors, similar to the way we boarded the vessel, so, in theory, we could stay here for quite a while. HAYES: Oh, I see. Okay. So, then the question is, what is the end game here? Are you anticipating you`ll be arrested or apprehended? Are you going to stick on this rig until what? FIELD: Well, it is really hard to say what -- we`re certainly are prepeared to stay here for any number of days, but really we`re just here and committed to being here until Shell hears a message loud and clear that people do not want drilling in the Arctic this summer. HAYES: Shell has invested millions and millions in Arctic drilling. Do you think that you can stop them? FIELD: Well, it definitely is a large opponent and that`s why we really need the voices of everyone to join with us and show Shell just how many people are there are standing against them. We already have 6.8 million people saying that very thing, and I know there are many, many more. HAYES: Aliyah Fields, somewhere in the Pacific Ocean, latched to a Shell oil drilling rig. Thank you very much. Stay safe. FIELD: Alright, thank you. HAYES: That is All In for this evening. Some news, breaking at this moment on the big story that we brought you at the beginning of the hour, the family of Walter Scott, the man shot and killed by a police officer in North Charleston, South Carolina, will be conducting a press conference this evening, that`s after video was made available of the shooting. Now, that has lead to murder charges against the officer in question. The Rachel Maddow Show will be covering you that, live. Starts right now. THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED. END