All In with Chris Hayes, Transcript 02/12/15

CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST: Tonight on All In. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) DR. MOHAMMAD ALBU-SALHA: She told us that she felt that man hated them for the way they look and the Muslim garb they wore. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: A Trayvon Martin moment for Muslim-Americans. The family of three slain Muslim students now directly appealing to the President for a hate crime investigation. We`ll have the latest from North Carolina. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) JAMES COMEY, FBI DIRECTOR: Everyone is a little bit racist. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: A historic speech from the Director of the FBI on race in police. Plus, a major measle scare in Silicon Valley. My interview with the best selling author and pediatrician who thinks it`s OK to delay vaccines. And on the eve of the All-Star Game, my interview with the NBA`s first openly gay player. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) JASON COLLINS, CENTER, BROOKLY NETS: I don`t have time to really think about history. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: All In starts right now. Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes. Tonight, mourners have gathered around the country concluding at a vigil at Raleigh, North Carolina to honor the three young Muslim-Americans shot to death Tuesday night in their apartment at a campus in the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. This has been a day of mourning. Earlier, thousands gathered for a funeral service for the three slain students, dental student Deah Barakat, his wife, Yusor Abu-Salha and his 19 -- and her 19-year-old sister Razan. Police have charged this man, Craig Stephen Hicks, who lived in the same apartment complex as the victims with the murders. The police say their preliminary investigation indicated the crime was motivated by anger over perceived parking infractions by the victims. The father of the slain sisters told MSNBC today, he considers the murder as a hate crime, driven by anti-Muslim biased. And in conjunction with major Muslim groups, the victim`s family and members plan to send a letter to the Department of Justice, calling for a formal hate-crime investigation. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) ALBU-SALHA: Even though the murderer can say that it was a parking dispute, whatever he was picking on, he came to their apartment with his gun two or three times before the murder, on different occasions. My daughter Yusor complained and she told us that she felt that man hated them for the way they looked and the Muslim garb they wore. She felt the heat has risen after she moved into the apartment. And her friends came to visit in Muslim -- and wear our Muslim attire. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: Tonight, a News & Observers reporting, the FBI has now opened a parallel inquiry to killings to determine whether or not any federal laws were violated. Earlier today, StoryCorp posts a recording of comments made by one of the victim, Yusor Albu-Salha when she visited the StoryCorp booth with her former elementary school teacher last summer. (BEGIN AUDIO CLIP) YUSOR ALBU-SALHA: Growing up in America has been such a blessing and, you know, although in some ways I do stand out, such as, you know, the Hijab I wear on my head, the head covering, there are still so many ways that I feel so embedded in the fabric that is, you know, our culture. And that`s the beautiful thing here is that it doesn`t matter where you come from. There`s so many different people from so many different places, of different backgrounds and religions, but here we`re all one. (END AUDIO CLIP) HAYES: Joining me now from Raleigh, North Carolina tonight is Deah Barakat`s brother, Farris Barakat. Farris, I just want to thank you for joining me and start out by saying we are all just horribly heartbroken and sorry for your loss. FARRIS BARAKAT, BROTHER OF DEAH BARAKAT: Thank you for honoring me and it`s really good to hear Yusor`s voice again, actually. Thank you for that. HAYES: How are you feeling today? I can`t imagine the grief your family is going through. And also at the same time, there has been such a remarkable outpouring. You`ve been so embraced. There are so many people across the country thinking of you, praying for you. How are you feeling at this moment? BARAKAT: Honestly, I just speak on my behalf and on behalf of my life and the Albu-Salha family. Grief is not something we feel right now. The support has been tremendous and honestly we are -- we have hugged each other. I told him congratulations. I`ve hugged my mom and told her congratulations because your son is now in paradise, the highest level. So honestly, we don`t feel grief. We are happy for them. And we`re going to miss them soon. But right now, we`re related and we`re so happy that God felt like we`re strong enough to handle this. And we rely on His wisdom for this plan. And we look forward to what`s happening because no one can make sense of this but we`re strong in our faith. And trust me, it is not grief that we`re feeling. HAYES: What do you want people to know about your brother and his wife and her sister? What should we know about what kind of people they were? BARAKAT: I was asked this earlier and I wasn`t able to answer because I didn`t want to answer and not give the chance to give the thousands of other people that Yusor and my brother helped answer that as well with me. There are so much to talk about my brother and my sister-in-law and there`s an -- my brother was kind and gentle but big and competitive and on the basketball court and off and Yusor was such the passive, kind, peaceful, soft-spoken type and Razan was such the able designer and she was very -- she was always was creative with her ideas and always is willing to use her talent for others. And as many times, I wanted to resort to her and say, hey Razan I wanted to work on this project and I want to resort to her on this occasion but sadly I`ve come to realize that I couldn`t. HAYES: I saw -- there had been some recording about the person who was accused of committing this horrible crime, this crime adding post in the Facebook things that his own beliefs, militant, atheism I believe you know that, not having a believe in God and sort of looking down on those who do. And I saw a statement that was posted by one group of atheist, American atheist, sort of condemning the killings in a kind of ritualized way that has come to be expected of essentially random Muslims in the wake of some killing by -- someone who is a Muslim, even if it`s halfway across the world. And I wonder what`s your response to that was? BARAKAT: Many people actually have tried to condemn this act and for atheist I think that they need to condemn this act is kind of -- would be hypocritical for me to expect because, as a Muslim, I know that one act of the violence does not represent all Muslims and this act does not represent all atheists. And to me, I tell to the community, we know that this does not represent any sane and loving and human being as atheist can be. So, that is my response and thank you for everything. HAYES: Finally I wanted to ask you if you have a message for the President of the United States, there is a wave of grief happening across this country. A feeling like, this is some kind of important galvanizing moment for the way Muslim-Americans relate to America and feel protected and embraced or marginalized and I wonder if there`s something you want to say to the President? BARAKAT: I guess this message goes to the President but every citizen of this democratic country, I hope that we can use this tragedy to -- as much as it`s a grave tragedy, I think we can all agree that so much good has come out of it, if we continue to do that, if we can continue to see the great blessing that it is. And to hopefully, you know, the only -- it doesn`t change anything that this is classified as a hate-crime or not, but you know the idea is, if we classify it as a hate-crime, and maybe people will start understanding that, you know, Islamophobia or hate or ignorance can kill, it can affect people`s lives and can take away three citizens from this wonderful country and even more. And my message is, let`s fight ignorance despite hate together and let`s use this as an excuse to do so. HAYES: Farris Barakat, I have to say, you and you`re entire family showed tremendous grace and again, our deepest condolences. Thank you very much for taking time tonight, I know it`s hard. BARAKAT: Thank you, thank you. HAYES: This unfathomable tragedy has become a rallying point both across the world with Palestinians protesting the killings outside U.N. headquarters in Gaza City today and here at home with an outpouring of support for the three promising young Muslim-Americans who were both observant and proud about their religion and in a million ways, just utterly American. Deah Barakat was a basketball fanatic who posted this absolutely adorable and now heartbreaking vine (ph) of Yusor Alba-Salha with the caption, she gets buckets. Donations to his project to bring dental care to Syrian refugees have now hit more than $250,000, the goal was just $20,000. On Twitter, the hashtag, Muslim lives matter and our three winners have become a rallying cry for so many people and it feels to me, that someone observing this, admittedly from the outside, like a galvanizing moment for Muslim- Americans. A Trayvon Martin moment, a Michael Brown moment for Muslim-Americans, though obviously very different in the context and specific sets of facts in history, likely killing of Trayvon Martin and Michael Brown, the senseless deaths of these three young people has struck such a profound nerve and mobilized so many because millions of people who look like those victims are fed up with the routine stereotyping, the marginalization and mainstream media representations and the vilification by political leaders seeking to score cheap political points. Whatever the motivations for this horrendous slaughter, it takes place in the context where subtle, persistent anti-Muslim bias is a part of American life, and this feels like a wake-up call. Joining me now is Farhana Khera. She `s President and Executive Director of Muslim Advocates. And Farhana, I want to ask you about a letter that I understand you and other organizations are planning to send to the White House tomorrow. FARHANA KHERA, PRESIDENT AND EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF MUSLIM ADVOCATES: Yeah. Chris, first of all, I want to extend my deepest condolences to the families of the victims. Frankly, their strength and courage these last few days has been inspiring. And my thoughts and prayers are with them. You know, like you were just saying Chris, the level of the way in which the strategy is being felt across the American-Muslim community, I haven`t seen anything like this since the tragic events of September 11 frankly. I can`t tell you how many messages I`ve read this week of mothers hugging their children tightly and hoping that these brutal murders are not the future for Muslims in America. But we know this Chris, that unfortunately this was not an isolated incident. We know that in the last five years, there`s been a disturbing uptick in anti-Muslim bigotry and hate crimes. And that is why we are calling on the President and the Attorney General to act. They have been silent. We need them to address these murders in clear and unconditional terms. And we want the Attorney General to open a full and rigorous federal investigation to ensure that this does not happen again. It is -- Absolutely important for the nations to up law enforcement officer to send a clear message to people not only in North Carolina, but across this country. HAYES: I should know, we do have just before it went on air, one report from News & Observer local paper that that`s -- it appears such a parallel inquiry may have already been initiated by the federal government. What do you say to people that say, "We don`t know the motivations," the wife of the person who was alleged of committed this murder says it was about -- in the police`s words, a parking dispute which is a very weird phrase in a context of killing three people? But, you know, you don`t know what`s going through his head and you shouldn`t be making this into something that it isn`t necessarily? KHERA: Well, I think given the environment of -- in which this took place, Chris, and especially in the last -- even in the last several weeks where we`ve seen politicians from state houses to Governor Bobby Jindal make anti-Muslim comments, where we`ve seen frankly just threatening messages on social media particularly after the release of the Hollywood movie "American Sniper." There`s a certain environment taking place and I might add you mentioned that the FBI has started a preliminary inquiry, we think that`s a good step but preliminary inquiries don`t always result in full investigations and so we`re seeking a full and open rigorous investigation. And we think that is what`s needed because of this climate of hate because it`s not just taking place in North Carolina, Chris, it`s taking place across the country. HAYES: Farhana Khera, thank you very much. Before we leave this, I want to just show some statistics on hate crimes against Muslims in this country. And you`ll notice something pretty stunning. They were very low before 2001, September 11th. They went skyrocketed that year and they have remain quite and disturbingly high since then, something to think about the context of what happened down in Chapel Hill, all right. As same-sex marriage licenses get mandated in Mobile, Alabama. I`ll be joined here in studio by NBA veteran Jason Collins, the first major pro- sport athlete to come out. But first, an astonishing speech from an expected quarter (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) COMEY: Many people in our white majority culture have unconscious racial biases and react differently to a white face than a black face. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: The current head of the FBI unflinching on the subject of race and police. That`s next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HAYES: This week I travel to Texas, home of the most active death chamber in the country and our next installment of the All In America`s series brought me to death row in Livingstone, Texas. Yesterday, I sat down with the man who is scheduled to be executed in just three weeks. Rodney Reed convicted in the 1996 rape and murder of a woman named Stacey Stites maintains his innocence to this day. I talked with him not only about the case, about what living on death row from nearly two decades has been like. Relationships, he told me, are difficult to develop. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: Do you have friendships that have been born here? RODNEY REED, TEXAS DEATH ROW INMATE: I don`t use that word loosely, friends, you know what I`m saying. Friendship, I mean, I have guys that I associate with because when you go as far as making a friend, I mean, there`s feelings there that if you know what a true friend is, you know, what I`m saying, you know what I`m saying and you, the next thing, you know, the state`s gonna take them. It`s more likely the friend that is, you know, the state`s gonna kill him. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: You`ll hear more of what Rodney Reed told me about life on death row in our Facebook page, facebook.com/allinwithchris. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HAYES: Something remarkable happened in Washington today. One of the nation`s top law enforcement official, the man who spent most of his career in law enforcement and who`s a Bush appointee to the Justice Department, this man right here. FBI Director James Comey delivered some brazing hard truths on racial justice and policing in America. The speech today at Georgetown University Comey spoke unsparingly about law enforcement`s role in this country`s legacy of racism. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) COMEY: All of us in law enforcement must be honest enough to acknowledge that much of our history is not pretty. At many points in American history, law enforcement enforced the status quo. A status quo that was often brutally unfair to disfavored groups. Little compares to the experience on our soil of black Americans. That experience should be part of every American`s consciousness, and law enforcement`s role in that experience including in recent times must be remembered. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: His speech was explicitly framed around events since the death of Michael Brown and Eric Garner a little more than six months ago, the idea of this kind of talk coming from the Director of the FBI, the Irish- American grandson of a cop, would have seemed inconceivable. The same time Comey also sought to defend law enforcement and focus on the long complicated antecedents to the encounters between cops and people with collar in neighborhoods across the country. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) COMEY: Law enforcement is not the root cause of the problems in our hardest hit neighborhoods. Police officers, people of enormous courage and integrity in the overwhelming main (ph) are in those neighborhoods, risking their lives, to protect folks from offenders who are a product of problems that will not be solved by body cameras. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: Joining me now, Phillip Atiba Goff, co-founder and president of the Center for Policing Equity. Well, Phillip, I thought this is a pretty amazing speech. What was your take on it? PHILLIP ATIBA GOFF, CENTER FOR POLICING EQUITY: I was gobsmacked. I felt exactly the way that you felt. You`re not expecting to see the Director of the least trusted body in the federal government within black communities come out and say everyone is a little bit racist. That was sort of mind blowing. And I`m so glad that you`re covering this because I think it shows the incremental changes that give people so much hope that we can be doing something better with race and law enforcement than what we`ve been doing up until now. HAYES: Yeah. There`s a part where he quotes the musical avenue queue that is a song everybody is a little bit racist to talk about unconscious. I thought that was key because I think what ends up happening often in these conversations that members of law enforcement police officers feel -- get into a defensive crouch. Is your calling me a racist and this point that every person even African-Americans as demonstrated in a lots of laboratory environments have anti-black bias that that is just part of what underlies anyone doing their job in law enforcement or elsewhere. GOFF: Yeah. And what I found to be even more -- maybe sort of radical in what he was saying is he said it`s easy to localize this problem within the character of law enforcement. And his concern was that`s too easy. HAYES: Yeah. GOFF: But the problem is bigger than that and we all need to take ownership of those bigger problems. This speech was sort of the power of honesty, but even more it`s the power of historical literacy. So the point he was making were profound from any director of the FBI. But beyond that he got specific, he mentioned the fact that he sit at the desk where the order was received five lines to go ahead and wiretap Martin Luther King. Saying that out loud where people could hear him is it`s a brand new day for every FBI`s relationship with these kinds of communities. HAYES: And in fact he talks about keeping and there`s a long portion of the speech where he talks about why he keeps a copy of that approval of the wiretap request at his desk as a reminder of what the history the FBI is. And I mean, we were not even getting into the Black Panthers and (inaudible) and all sorts of other stuff they do. This is just on King, but I mean this is an agency that has done some pretty narrowly things to black activist through the decades. And for him to just acknowledge that, that itself I thought was pretty striking. GOFF: Yeah, it`s absolute. Again it was phenomenal. And, you know, so my phone was buzzing off the hook as soon as the text of it was released because there were a lot of folks in law enforcement who have felt this way, who have been waiting for leadership to come out and say it. And that he ends the speech talking about data which he knows good and well that major city law enforcement has been calling for a national database not just on police-involved shootings but on all police behavior that were now putting together for the first time. It was a phenomenal speech. It was -- and not just a work of amazing politics but incredible honesty and something -- a good news race story at the time when we can really use one. HAYES: Yeah, he said at one point it is ridiculous I cannot tell you how many Americans were shot by police last year which is I think uncontroversially true. Phillip Atiba Goff, always a pleasure. Thank you. GOFF: Thank you. HAYES: Of all the top questions of potential presidential contenders face, I don`t think this should be one of them (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you comfortable with the idea of evolution? Do you believe in it? Do you accept it? SCOTT WALKER, GOV. (R) WISCONSIN: For me I`m going to punt on that one as well. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. Really? WALKER: That`s a question a politician should be involved in one way or the other. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: Happy 206th birthday Charles Darwin, we`ll present some advise for presidential aspirants based on that question, ahead. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HAYES: It`s the common presidential hopeful`s rite of passage. Travel (ph) London extensively to beef up your economic informed policy credentials and stepping it. Yesterday Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker was the latest Republican who follow in that grand tradition, in a question and answer session at Chatham House, yesterday this happened. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can I finish with the question that I always assume as the tradition now to ask visiting particularly Republican, senior Republicans who come to London and it`s not about cheese and it`s not about foreign affairs. It`s actually about evolution. Do you -- Are you comfortable with the idea of evolution? Do you believe in it? Do you accept it? WALKER: For me, I`m going to punt on that one as well... UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. Really? WALKER: That`s a question a politician should be involved in one way or the other. So I`m going to leave that up to you and. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: . with any British politician right or left wing would say would love and say yes of course evolution is true. But. WALKER: To me I said it`s just one of those where I`m here to talk about trade not to pontificate that. Another should. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: Walker went on to tweet, "Both science and my faith dictate my belief that we are created by God. I believe faith and science are compatible, and go hand in hand." It`s unfortunate the media chose to politicize this issue during our trade mission to foster investment in Wisconsin. So over the last 30 days we`ve gaffer (ph) a new cycle about vaccines yes or no to crusades maybe not so bad to evolution, is it real. And out of all that madness there`s still something in particular about Walker`s answer that`s stands out. First as a politician you`re never suppose to actually say, "I`m going to punt on that one." That is supposed to be the subtext, the text is just your non-responsive answer. Saying, "I`m going to punt" is like saying, "I am evasive and untrustworthy." Second Scott Walker, Rand Paul, and Chris Christie and anyone else there who is thinking of running for president, I have three words of advice just say yes -- should kids be vaccinated, yes. Did people commit horrible acts in the name of Christianity during the crusades, yes. Should kids be taught evolution because it`s real, yes. Next question. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HAYES: So the process of getting a marriage license in the state of Alabama has been in chaos in recent days. After a federal struck down the state`s ban on same-sex marriage, and the Supreme Court refused to block that ruling -- meaning it was going to go into effect -- Roy Moore, the chief justice of Alabama`s Supreme Court, the state court, took matters into his own hands. He instructed local judges to ignore the federal court ruling and the Supreme Court and still refuse to issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples. Now, as you might imagine, complete disarray followed with judges in some counties following the federal court`s order and issuing the licenses while others refused licenses to same-sex couples and some just shut down the entire marriage license operation altogether. But today, another ruling which might provide some clarity to local judges who aren`t sure what to do. Earlier today a federal judge ruled that officials in Mobile should go ahead and let same-sex couples get married, basically telling them to stop ignoring her original ruling from a few weeks ago when she declared, in so uncertain terms that Alabama`s ban on same-sex marriage was unconstitutional. Today`s ruling was part of a lawsuit intended to clear things up between the conflicting federal and state rulings. And in some ways, what is most remarkable about this fight in Alabama right now, this constitutional crisis, is that it hasn`t happening earlier. I mean, in state after state after state opponents of same-sex marriage have basically waved the white flag of surrender, which is partly a sign of the evolution in public opinion on this matter. As recently as 2003, according to Pew Research, just 33 percent of the country supported same-sex marriage. Ten years later, half of the country favored same-sex marriage. And that was the year that Jason Collins became the first active male player in any of the big four American pro sports leagues to come out as gay. Writing at the time, quote, "I`m glad I`m coming out in 2013 rather than 2003. The climate has shifted. Public opinion has shifted. And yet we still have so much farther to go." And joining me now is Jason Collins. Great to have you here. I wanted to talk to you for awhile. Thank you for being here. JASON COLLINS, RETIRED NBA PLAYER: Thank you for having me. HAYES: So, when you see what`s going on with this -- you know, we`ve got the marriage case that`s going to come before the Supreme Court, this Alabama fight that`s happening, what is your feeling about where we are in this sort of trajectory of progress? COLLINS: It is a little frustrating when you see people fighting against change. And some people are digging in their heels, and trying to find ways around it, but I think ultimately marriage equality is going to be a fact in this country in all 50 states and slowly we`re on that path and obviously with the Supreme Court case that is coming up later, in a couple months, we`re looking forward to the outcome of that. HAYES: Did you -- do you -- I mean, when you made the decision to do what you did, how did that alter the trajectory of your life? COLLINS: My life is exponentially better in so many ways. I was able to go out and play on the court. There is a picture here from my game, playing at Denver, I think that was my third game back in the league. But just being able to after the game is over, not having to hide who I am. In some of the games, especially here in New York and Brooklyn, my boyfriend was here waiting in the family room just like everyone else`s loved one. And that`s how it should be. It`s -- you are able to have your private life and not feel like you have to hide anything and then you`re able to go out there and you know do your job and play your sport. HAYES: Did things change much? It seemed to me like it was largely was srot a nonissue. Maybe that`s the wrong perception. From your standpoint, how did if feel? COLLINS: Well, it was a great -- a huge issue for some of my teammates. One of my team mates in particular took time, especially in that first week that I came back to pull me aside and just say this is going to be huge for the country, it`s a great sports moment, and just how proud he was of me and how happy he was I was back in the league and that I was his team mate. And moments like that are incredible, especially now, you know, I have seen it now for Robbie Rogers for the L.A. Galaxy in the soccer and then in college with Derrick Gordon at UMass and more and more male athletes -- because for so long -- a long time women were taking the lead. We had Billie Jean King and Martina Navratilova. And I`m so grateful and thankful for every athlete, male or female, who came out. We`re all on the same team and making it easier or better for the next generation. HAYES: Are there -- I wondered this as soon as you came out -- are there closeted male athletes in this country who reach out to Jason Collins to say what should I do? COLLINS: Well, I don`t know -- not what should I do, but just -- yeah, just talk. And that`s sort of been my role when I was -- later in my career I was a mentor. And it`s just shifted, instead of mentoring young centers about like OK... HAYES: How to give a foul? COLLINS: Yeah, this is how you give a foul, this is how you take a charge, this is how you flop -- now it`s like, OK, these are some good people, good resources to know, a good support system. And again, we can all -- you know, we talk about sports, talk about basketball but then we also talk about their private lives and just how they`re doing, trying to offer another level of support for them. HAYES: You know, it has always struck me that being, you know, 22-years- old, under tremendous pressure, with millions of dollars, and trying to have any thing resembling a normal private romantic life regardless of whether you`re straight or gay is hard enough. COLLINS: Yeah, especially for a basketball player, because typically we are taller. So, you know, take myself for instance. I`m seven feet. HAYES: You stand out... COLLINS: I do not blend in unless I`m out there on a basketball court, that`s where I blend in. But, you know, it is important for people to feel comfortable in their own skill and live their authentic life because it will alleviate stress. HAYES: Could we just talk for a second about how great this NBA season has been? COLLINS: Yeah, it`s been incredible. HAYES: Yeah, I mean, it`s a fantastic season? COLLINS: Yeah, and plus I`m a little partial to the Golden State Warrior, my twin brother Jerin is an assistant coach with the Warriors. So he will -- he`s actually in town now. So, I`m looking forward to catching up with him this weekend. HAYES: They are -- there is nothing -- I mean, if you love basketball, there is nothing more beautiful, it`s like listening to like a Tchaikovsky symphony or something, to watch the Golden State Warrior when they are turning it up, when they are firing on all cylinders. COLLINS: Yeah, it`s amazing. It`s like a -- to those who play video game, it`s like NBA Jam when the guy is on fire, like some of the shots that STeph Curry out there, and Clay Thompson too, and they have so many shooters. And then, you`ve got the Cleveland Cavaliers who are playing really well. And then you have the addition of Pau Gasol in Chicago, and that combination that seems to be finally clicking with Derek Rose. So it`ll be fun to watch. And then how scary is this that you could have Oklahoma City or maybe even San Antonio as an eight seed maybe or a seven seed. And it`s just like, you know, who wants to play against them in the first round. HAYES: Do you think they should go -- there has been some interesting talk about going to the best 16 teams as opposed to the best eight from each conference, because you end up -- it`s been so lopsided in the west for so long. COLLINS: I actually -- I`m a little bit mixed on this, because I played in the Eastern Conference for all my 13 years in the NBA. HAYES: Probably on some on the bubble teams. COLLINS: Yeah. There is one Nets team, we were about .500 and we ended up going to the playoffs, and -- I actually am in favor of just having the best teams, because I think it`ll make the playoffs even better. HAYES: Jason Collins, it`s really, really a pleasure. This is the most important question, right. COLLINS: Yes, let`s here it. HAYES: Can you get me tickets to the all-star game? COLLINS: I know a guy who knows a guy. HAYES: All right, really a pleasure, man. Thank you very much. Great to see you. All right -- basketball game this weekend, in fact. All right, there is parents who do vaccinate their kids, they`re parents who don`t vaccinate their kids, and then there parents who delay vaccinating their kids and one of the doctors who helps justify doing he is going to join me ahead. Stick around for that. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HAYES: Tonight there`s yet another case of adult measles, a person in the Bay Area in Contra Costa County has contracted measles, that`s according to the patient`s employer LinkedIn. Officials at the professional social networking site say they are cooperating with local health officials. In fact, a person may have exposed fellow passengers on the BART rail service when the patient traveled in and out of San Francisco between February 4 and February 6 according to health officials. Meanwhile, Wired.com has published this alarming chart from the California Department of Public health showing the measles vaccination rates at children of workers at various Silicon Valley companies. Those red lines show day cares affiliated with Bay Area companies where less than 90 percent of children have had up to date vaccines. The day care centers that fall below this crucial herd immunity level of 90 percent include some affiliated with Google, Cisco Systems, IBM, and Pixar. Now here`s the thing, up to date is a key phrase in this story, because delaying vaccines is the real undercovered story of this measles outbreak. We`ll have much more on that next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HAYES: Since the onset of the recent measles outbreak in this country, attention has largely focused on anti-vaccers, parents who don`t get their kids vaccinated at all, because of scientifically baseless fears. That is a tiny part of the population. There is a far larger group that includes thow who are delaying vaccines for their children, because of shoddy non-scientific notions about, for example, the danger of vaccines in combinations or in close succession, or the effect of possible toxins. At a recent congressional hearing, Senator Elizabeth Warren posed a series of questions to Dr. Anne Schuchat, director of the National Center for Immunization at the CDC. After dispensing with many of the concerns of outright antivaxxers, specifically point out the lack of scientific evidence linking vaccines to autism, mental disorders, allergies or autoimmune disorders, they moved on to some of the concerns more widely shared of vaccine delayers. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN, (D) MASSACHUSETTS: Are there additives or preservatives in vaccines that can be toxic to kids? DR. ANNE SCHUCHAT, CDC: Not in the amounts that are in vaccines. WARREN; Is there any scientific evidence that giving kids their vaccines further apart or spacing them differently is healthier for kids? SCHUCHAT; No, it actually increases the risk period for children. WARREN: So it adds to the danger. Is there any scientific evidence that kids can develop immunity to these diseases on their own simply by eating nutritious foods or being active? SCHUCHAT: No. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: And yet one of the bestselling on children`s health on Amazon right now is this: "The Vaccine Book," which includes, quote, common sense sounding admonitions like, quote, "vaccination isn`t an all or nothing decision." And, quote, "it is my goal to give you a balanced look, the pros and cons vaccination that you can make an educated decision." In his book, Dr. Bob Sears offers up an alternative vaccine schedule where some shots are delayed. Dr. Sears has argued that, quote, "spreading the shots out reduces the risk of having a severe reaction and avoids overloading babies with too many chemical ingredients at one time." But most doctors and scientists, including as you heard, top immunization officials at the CDC, say there is no science behind the delayed schedule. And delaying vaccines is actually dangerous. I`m going to ask the author of The Vaccine Book, Dr. Bob Sears, why he is pushing a program that is so widely condemned among his peers, next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HAYES: Joining me now the author of The Vaccine Book: Making the Right Decision for Your Child pediatrician Dr. Bob Sears. Doctor, thank you. I just wanted to be first about -- talk about sort of your qualifications here. I mean, you`re a pediatrician, obviously, but you don`t publish in immunology, or vaccines. You don`t research it, and you don`t study this professionally. DR. BOB SEARS, PEDIATRICIAN: Well, I give vaccines every day in my office, Chris, so I have a lot of experience with them, certainly. And I spent years, even decades even, researching medical journals. This all started back in medical school. I just hit the library and went from journal to journal trying to learn everything I could about vaccines. HAYES: Right, but you`re not publishing peer-reviewed work in this area? SEARS; No, I`m a full-time practicing pediatrician. I work every day in my office, so no, I`m not a researcher, Chris. HAYES: So, where is the published peer-reviewed evidence to support the notion of a, quote, overload if you follow the CDC recommended schedule? Where does that exist? SEARS: Chris, I don`t think there is any such research, and I actually never claimed there was. I certainly have put out there very clearly in my writings that my precautions on spreading out vaccines are theoretical. It`s a theoretical benefit to kids and it`s a choice that I think a lot of parents feel more comfortable about and might bring more parents to vaccinate if they can spread the shots out more than the regular schedule. HAYES: So, I`ve watched a number of your interviews. I`m sort of always confused about whether you`re saying you`re doing this to make parents more comfortable or you actually think there is something to it. And the most cynical interpretation is you`ve spotted a market opportunity to be the kind of sensible middle in the, quote, vaccine debate where you can sell a lot of books to people by basically telling them they have their cake and eat it too. You`re not crazy for thinking this. Just delay. You can have the best of both worlds. SEARS: Well, Chris, if you look back in the 80s when we were giving vaccines to children, we gave about eight vaccines back then. And I think almost all parents complied. We felt it was really safe and you didn`t see a lot of reactions. And then the `90s and 2000s, and now, Chris, that number has moved from eight vaccines to 54 vaccines throughout all of childhood... HAYES: Right, within the first two years. SEARS: Some of these parents are simply just trying to question is this escalation too much for their little babies to handle. And they want to spread it out. HAYES: But what you`re saying there -- this is the thing I think I find, if you`ll excuse me, somewhat maddening about this is that throwing out these numbers and saying they`re little babies reifies some notion that they have to be scared of it when we have science for a reason. We have peer-reviewed research for a reason. We know we can conduct peer-reviewed research on this. We have longitudinal studies about the effects of these things. If none of that turning up negative effects, aren`t you just feeding into those fears? Isn`t this superstition? SEARS: Well, Chris, let`s look at data. Let`s look at Centers for Diseae Control data. As you may already know, about 2,000 severe reactions are reported to the Centers for Disease Control every year from vaccines, you know, reactions that land someone in the hospital, create a permanent disability or even death: 2,000, Chris. Now, I will also say that these are not proven reactions to the vaccines, these are simply reported reactions. And what does the medical community do with that? They simply ignore those reactions, because we can`t prove that the vaccines cause these, we`re just going to set them aside and ignore them. And I think that`s dangerous and it does a disservice. HAYES: Why is that dangerous? First of all, we`re talking about a cohort roughly every year of about 10 million kids, right. So 2,000 about of 10 million kids, it`s 2,000 out of 2,500. Second of all, if this is the concern, right, it seems to me that the precautionary principle here is to get your kids vaccinated along the schedule that is supported by the best most current medical research evidence published and peer-reviewed, and then push for additional research in other areas. And if they additional researches turns something back, then deviate from that. But to tell people to delay their vaccines opens up to real harm that we are now seeing happen across this country. SEARS: Well, Chris, in my office I definitely don`t tell people delay any vaccines that pose a direct threat to their babies or their communities. You know, I vaccinate for whopping cough on time, rotavirus. I delay the meningitis vaccines by only one month, one month, Chris. I don`t think that`s much of a delay. And I also recommend the measles vaccine at one year and five years just as the CDC does. So, I don`t delay anything that poses a direct threat. I delay some of the vaccines that don`t make sense, like Hepatitis b. That`s a sexually transmitted infection. American babies don`t catch that. And when parents hear that my schedule is a little bit more logical and I`m not forcing a vaccine that makes no sense down their throats, they tend to listen to me and then want to follow that advice. HAYES: Let me just say on the Hepatitis B, there`s been a lot of sort of I think muddying the waters -- the CDC changed the Hepatitis B recommendation because they found that day care centers were a site of transmission of the disease precisely because there were larger populations of people that were not vaccinated in those areas. But Dr. Bob Sears, thank you for coming on the show. I really do appreciate you coming on. SEARS: All right. Thanks for having me on, Chris. HAYES: Let`s turn to Dr. Corey Hebert, assistant professor at the Louisiana State health sciences center in Tulane University, also CEO of community health TV. And Dr. Hebert, I know you do do some research and work in this area. This idea -- I mean, there is an intuitive appeal of delay meningitis by a month. So what`s so bad about that? DR. COREY HEBERT, LSU HEALTH SCIENCES CENTER: Well, there are a couple of things here. And what we must always realize is that this is based on preferences. Dr. Sears is a great guy. And -- but it`s all based on preferences. So when we think about parental preferences, we`re -- they`re based on emotion and they`re based on science. So, really, bogus scientific data has no place in evidence-based medicine in the United States. We know that of 4 million kids will get combination vaccines this year alone, and it`s 1.1 in 1 million will have a serious adverse event or vaccine injury. Now let`s think about this very clearly, because the odds of you taking an aspirin and having an intercerbral hemorrhage are much greater than a vaccine injury. And we mentioned -- Dr. Sears mentioned the fact that there is a registry. It`s called VARS (ph). And people can report vaccine injury and vaccine adverse reactions to this. Not only can doctors do it, but parents can do it, teachers can do it and there is really no cause and effect, because if I get a flu vaccine, and then I walk out onto the street and get hit by a car, that is listed in that VARS (ph) system. So, that didn`t mean anything. HAYES: Let me tell you about VARS (ph), I`ll give you an honest moment. My first daughter -- we took her to some set of shots. And sure, it`s upsetting to watch your little infant kid get shots. And she was sort of acting kind of like -- she was in a bad mood afterwards and the thought totally 100 percent flitted across my mind, because all this stuff out there, like oh, man, was it the vaccine? Was it the shot? And I can imagine if she got sick, self reporting that even if there is absolutely no possible provable scientific connection between the two. HEBERT: Exactly. And what happens is everybody wants the best for their kids. So, let`s just think about this. When is the last time a 25 to 35-year-old man or woman saw someone limping around America because they got polio. When the last time somebody saw that? So, they don`t know the scourge of illness. Without vaccination and sanitation America would not even be here. So, let`s talk about that. Because we know that the delayed vaccination thing, let`s -- you can`t base your whole livelihood on bogus science. We know that Dr. Andrew Wakefield produced this study in 1998. And I`m talking to you right now as a parent, and as a doctor, and as a researcher. When I was in training when that came out in 1998 and I had a newborn kid. So, I was like, man, what do I do? But what did I do? I looked at the data and I saw that this was bogus. This dude got $600,000 from lawyers to sue the vaccine manufacturers. So, that is the only guy that ever came out with that. So, and then you have got Jenny McCarthy coming out saying that. And so she got her degree at Playboy University. So, you can`t even justify her coming out writing three books on this thin. So, I`m trying to disparage anybody here, Chris, but what I am telling you is that we must keep this in proportion. And I want to say one more thing about this measles, mumps, rubella shot. Everybody is freaking out about the measles, but let`s think about MMR stands for measles, mumps and rubella. If a boy does not get the shot, and he gets the mumps, he can get orchitis which can cause him to be sterile and not be able to have children. Also, if a lady does not have her rubella shot, then she can have stillborn child if she gets rubella. So, the point is that this is much bigger than just the measles, this is a far -- has much broader implications here. HAYES: And there is also a collection action problem here, just to end on this note, which is that if you think, well, these diseases basically don`t affect anyone anymore, and individually I can make the freerider decision because I feel kind of icky about it, well, enough people do that and you you know what you get, you measles at Disneyland. Dr. Corey Hebert, thank you very much HEBERT: There you go. Thank you. HAYES: All right, that is ALL IN for this evening. "THE RACHEL MADDOW SHOW" starts right now. THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED. END