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All In with Chris Hayes, Transcript 01/07/15

Guests: Paul Ackermann, Jesse Paul; Joel Pett; Michael Moynihan; KarimaBennoune; Arsalan Iftikhar

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST (voice-over): Tonight on ALL IN -- (GUNFIRE) An attack in Paris leaves 12 dead. Gunmen open fire on the offices of the satirical magazine "Charlie Hebdo". Tonight as the French fill the streets in protests, the latest from Paris on the hunt for the gunmen. What we know about why this magazine and these cartoonists were targeted again and again, and what this attack means for free speech around the world. ALL IN starts right now. (END VIDEOTAPE) HAYES: Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes. A senior U.S. counterterrorism official tells NBC that at this hour, one suspect has been killed and two other suspects are in custody following today`s attack on a French satirical magazine in which 12 people were killed. Earlier this evening, a police operation was under way in Reims, northeast of Paris, with police overhead in helicopters. French officials had just hours ago identified three men as suspects in the massacre. Two brothers in their early 30s, Said and Cherif Kouachi, as well as an 18-year-old accomplice Hamyd Mourad. One of the French officials told "The Associated Press" the suspects were tied to a Yemeni terrorist network. However, no group has claimed responsibility for the attack. Joining me now with the latest, NBC News justice correspondent Pete Williams. Pete, what do we know about who these people are? And who has been apprehended and who has been killed? PETE WILLIAMS, NBC NEWS JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: To be fair, we just don`t know exactly what the situation is in France tonight, well into the middle of the night. There have been conflicting reports all afternoon about whether an arrest had been made, the deputy mayor of Paris thought someone was under arrest, then he said no, that wasn`t true. We were told earlier this evening that from two U.S. counterterrorism officials that one person was dead and two have been arrested, but there are other U.S. officials that say they haven`t been told that. The French aren`t saying much. There`s a natural desire by U.S. officials not to get out ahead of the French. So, I think in fairness, Chris, we have to say we just don`t know exactly what the situation is there tonight. This has been something of a moving picture all day long about precisely what the status of them is. So, I think we can`t say with 100 percent certainty what the deal is over there right now. There are conflicting reports, as I think the honest answer. As for who they are -- the French authorities have decided not to release the names themselves, but the names have been out there. Two brothers from Paris, ages 34 and 32, and another younger person aged 18. One of the older two had been arrested by the French nine years ago and charged with trying to recruit people to fight against U.S. soldiers in Iraq. He was convicted and served about a year and a half in prison. So, he`s someone known to the French, although U.S. officials tell us tonight that there is -- they found in going back and scrubbing through the intelligence, no warning that this attack was coming against this newspaper in Paris. HAYES: We also -- we do know it was three assailants. We know that they - - we can see from the videos that they were able to escape. There was a very active manhunt. Are we under the impression that at this hour they at least have identified the location of those individuals or is that still not definitively confirmed? WILLIAMS: I think we can say safely that they keep getting information about where they are, they keep searching those places, but the French haven`t yet confirmed that they have found them or that they`ve arrested them or that they`ve shot anybody. This was information, we understand, from French authorities to U.S. officials here, but there is uncertainty about that tonight. And I think we just can`t report with any confidence precisely what the situation is. HAYES: All right. Pete Williams, thank you very much. Now, let`s go Bill Neely, chief global correspondent for NBC News, who is live in Paris tonight. Bill, what is the latest from Paris at this hour? BILL NEELY, NBC NEWS CHIEF GLOBAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Chris, just to back up what Pete was saying, it`s 2:00 in the morning here. And we`ve been unable to get any confirmation from French officials of a shoot-out either in Reims, which is 90 miles northeast of here or anywhere else. But the French police were slow earlier today when French media and indeed on social media the names of the three suspects including the two brothers were circulating. The French police took a very, very long time before they would confirm those names. So, it may well be seven hours from now in the early hours of tomorrow morning before the French police say anything new about this manhunt. HAYES: My understanding is that the scene in Paris tonight was a lot of people flooding the streets as a sign of solidarity and mourning and grief and defiance. What is the mood in the country now? The prime minister, of course, the president has declared a day of mourning tomorrow. What is the mood like? NEELY: Yes, French President Francois Hollande declared a day of mourning. Flags will fly at half-staff for three days. He said the country was in a state of shock. And I think that`s no exaggeration. It might be too much of an exaggeration to say as I heard today that this is France`s 9/11. I don`t think the casualty figures quite bear that out. But there`s a great sense of shock here. This is the worst terrorist attack in France since 1961, so 54 years ago. And that was at the height of the Algerian war. It`s also because it was seen as such a soft target. I mean, these are journalists and cartoonists who tried to make people laugh. One of them was 80 years old. I knew him. I`ve got one of his books on my book shelf at home, Wolinski, he was a very well-known person here. So, I think here`s revulsion. So, yes, here in Paris tonight, there was a big rally at one of the central squares, tens of thousands of people in solidarity with the magazine, many of them holding up posters that said "Je Suis Charlie", "I am Charlie too," the magazine, of course, called "Charlie Hebdo." So, there`s a mood of defiance, of solidarity, of shock. The French president saying, in order to stand up to these killers, we must unite as a nation. And that indeed is what`s happening. Many French imams, including the main imam from the main mosque here in Paris, have condemned this attack, saying this does not represent Islam. These are not true Muslims. HAYES: Bill Neely live in Paris this hour, thank you very much. Appreciate it. French President Francois Hollande declared tomorrow a national day of mourning, as you just heard, as thousands took to the streets in Paris, many expressing solidarity with the publication "Charlie Hebdo" carrying signs saying "I am Charlie." French officials raised the terror alert to its highest level following today`s attack, which was the deadliest in France in half a century. Sixteen police forces as well as military police groups were deployed throughout the Paris region. The city manhunt began immediately after the deadly attack late this morning in Paris. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) HAYES (voice-over): At 11:30 a.m. local time in Paris, a van pulled up in front of the building housing the French satirical magazine "Charlie Hebdo." At least two masked assailants armed with automatic weapons entered the building. The magazine was in middle of its morning editorial meeting. When the attackers entered the offices, officials say, the gunmen opened fire indiscriminately. UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): They went inside the offices. It`s like a butcher`s inside there now. There`s so many dead. One of my colleagues is in a critical condition. HAYES: The attack lasted just minutes. Meanwhile, journalists and neighbors took refuge on the roof. REPORTER: Those who had been in nearby offices scrambled on to roof tops to escape. What fear must have gripped them. Their phones captured the sight and sounds of the killers below. (GUNFIRE) REPORTER: This was the day militants brought terror to Paris. HAYES: At the office, the attackers killed 11 people, including 8 journalists, a maintenance worker, and a guest in the office, and a police officer. After the attack, the gunmen fled. Witnesses say the gunmen yelled "Allahu Akbar" and "We have avenged the Prophet Mohammed". On the run, they exchanged fire with police three times. During the last exchange, video shows a gunman killing an injured policeman who said, no, no, as he was shot at close range. Before the attackers drove away, one carefully picked up a shoe before getting into a black car. They continued on into a Paris suburb where they abandoned the vehicle and hijacked another car. REPORTER: This eyewitness came and said, "The car stopped here, armed men got out on the pavement and a threatening man had guns and what looked like a bazooka. They took another car and then they left and blocked everything." HAYES: In total, 12 people are dead, 11 people are injured, 4 critically. The magazine "Charlie Hebdo" had been a target of extremists for years. It`s part of a long-standing tradition of French satirical magazines taking aim at the political establishment, organized religion. But the publication`s repeated depictions of the Prophet Mohammed put the magazine and the staff under the threat of violence for nearly a decade. In 2006, the magazine republished cartoons of Mohammed from a Danish newspaper that has sparked a global fury. "Charlie Hebdo`s" offices were firebombed in 2011 after it named Mohammed as its editor in chief for the week`s issue. The following year, it published an illustration of Mohammed naked. That prompted the French government to temporarily close 20 embassies around the globe. But none of those events caused the people behind "Charlie Hebdo" to stray from the mission, including the editor Stephane Charbonnier known as "Charb". STEPHANE CHARBONNIER, CHARLIE HEBDO: It is not to defend freedom of speech, but without freedom of speech, we are dead. We can`t live in a country without freedom of speech. I prefer to die than live like a rat. I don`t know. HAYES: His last cartoon, eerily prophetic. REPORTER: The main comment says, how they`d been no attacks in France so far? But the figure of the armed militants replies, "Wait until the end of January before you get a gift from us." HAYES: Today, Charb was among those killed. Hours after the attack, the "Charlie Hebdo" Web site published this statement, "Je Suis Charlie," "I am Charlie." (END VIDEOTAPE) HAYES: Joining me now from Paris, Paul Ackermann. He is the editor of "Huffington Post" France. Paul, what are the streets of Paris like tonight? PAUL ACKERMANN, HUFFINGTON POST (via telephone): It`s a bit calmer, (INAUDIBLE) but there was a big rally at the end of the day because the emotion is really big about this situation around the media, there`s a lot police. But there`s no more fear than that I think. HAYES: There`s obviously the three gunmen remain at large, and yet -- and there`s concerns about security, I`m sure, but it seems that Parisians were taking to the streets to kind of express defiance at least from the images I saw. ACKERMANN: Yes. There was defiance, but it was a picture of solidarity and to show that they were really defending freedom of speech. It was more that than defiance. It was a symbol of solidarity and to show that we are together. HAYES: Has the murder of these journalists and cartoonists, also a police officer and maintenance worker, is the country reacting in a kind of united fashion or has it been -- obviously the magazine itself was polarizing. I wonder if there`s been a polarized response to it or is everyone fairly united in grief and outrage? ACKERMANN: No, no, right now, it`s really -- there`s a big, big showing of unity from political persons, from media, of course, also from representatives. It`s really a big, big movement of unity now. HAYES: There was, I saw, a statement issued by the grand mosque in Paris absolutely condemning the attack. I`ve seen a number of Parisian Muslims, French Muslims, other Muslim institutions there also condemning it. Obviously, they had nothing to do with this, but it does seem noteworthy in this context how unanimous that has been as well. ACKERMANN: Yes, there was a debate at some point on some "Charlie Hebdo" drawings, but now what happens this morning, nobody can accept it. Freedom of speech is something that is really universal in France and even if there has been debate on some details right now, everybody is united. HAYES: OK. Thank you very much. Really appreciate it. ACKERMANN: Thank you. HAYES: It seems like many countries have gotten good at defending against major terrorist attacks but not smaller scale ones. Why is that? And is it even possible to do so? Plus, the latest from Paris as the manhunt appears to continue. We`ll talk about all that, ahead. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HAYES: My thoughts of the work that the cartoonist and journalists at "Charlie Hebdo" were doing, in the wake of being threatened by violent reprisal every day, ahead. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HAYES: One thing you cannot say about the deadly terror attack against satirical magazine "Charlie Hebdo" in Paris today is that no one saw it coming. "Charlie Hebdo`s" offices were under police protection. They were fire bombed in 2011 after the magazine carried a caricature of the Prophet Mohammed. In 2013, al Qaeda`s branch in Yemen instructed its followers to murder "Charlie Hebdo`s" editorial director, proud provocateur, Stephane Charbonnier, in the form of a wanted poster in its online magazine with the headline, "Yes, we can, a bullet a day keeps the infidel away." Charbonnier was killed in today`s attack. The attack on "Charlie Hebdo" was more sophisticated than the acts of terror last year by so-called lone wolf attackers in Australia and Canada. But there are similarities. These were attacks involving a small number of assailants using guns and little else, whose actions did not require a high level of coordination necessary to pull off a larger scale mass casualty, a bombing like those in London or Madrid last decade. America and many other nations have appeared to develop a whole range of sophisticated techniques to combat such large scale attacks. But stopping one man or a small group of them who are armed with a gun or even just a vehicle, that seemed a different sort of challenge. Joining me now, NBC News analyst and former FBI NYPD joint terrorism task force assistant special agent in charge, Don Borelli. DON BORELLI, NBC NEWS ANALYST: Hi, Chris. HAYES: Let`s start off with what we might be able to -- what conclusion we might be able to draw from the film that we have, the video we have of the individuals involved as they walked through the streets. BORELLI: Right. So this one seems like it`s a bit of an in-betweener. Definitely more training, more sophistication that some of these one-off lone wolves like we saw in Australia and Canada, but maybe not the level of sophistication that we saw with like we saw with a 9/11 attack or a London bombing, for example. They did seem to move very methodically, tactically, seemed like they had a good idea of where they were going, may not exactly but probably had done some reconnaissance. I would imagine that there had been reconnaissance done on this building, probably had some information from the inside, and the fact that they were not deterred by police. I mean, most people that are going to attack a soft target will see a police car and say, you know, let`s back off and find a different soft target. HAYES: Right, right. BORELLI: They went ahead and went for it, even knowing that they were likely going to engage police activity. HAYES: And exchange fire several times with police, murdered a police officer up close in cold blood. What is the investigative trail you follow if you`re the French authorities right now? I mean, obviously, first, you have to find them. That`s the most important thing, right? BORELLI: Right. I mean, you`re going to want to build this whole timeline and this network. You`re going to -- not just the people involved in this attack but who are their circle of influence, who are their friends, their families, where did they travel? They did get some -- it appears they did get some training. Where did they get the training? Where did they get the weapons? Who financed them? Was this their idea? Was it somebody else`s idea? I mean, there`s a lot more questions than answers right now. But these are the pieces of the puzzle that the French, with the help of basically the rest of their allies are going to want to put together to figure out are there more of these out there? Are these one cell of many or is this just kind of a one off? HAYES: We have seen these attacks, she`s sort of lone wolf attacks or even in the Boston bombing situation, which again the suspects named here, two of them are brothers, of course, that was the case in the Boston bombing, in which you have essentially disaffected violent militants who plot internally and pull something off, right? Is it the case that essentially, the most we can hope for a sort of security apparatus is to prevent large scale mass casualty events but that is just an order of magnitude more difficult to prevent something like this on a soft target with a small number of conspirators if that`s what it proves to be? BORELLI: It is very difficult. I mean, you strive to have 100 percent. HAYES: Of course. BORELLI: But the reality of living in a free society, especially one where guns are available, and you don`t even need guns. I mean, there are other -- HAYES: In Canada, one individual who apparently still slight ambiguity, used a car. I mean, just -- BORELLI: So whatever. If somebody is really that committed to an act of violence even if it`s just a one person against, you know, a police officer or whatever, then it`s very, very difficult to stop in a society where, you know, we have freedoms and openness, and freedom to express, you know, our opinions and all these type of things. We don`t live in a police state. That`s the price we pay. Unfortunately, sometimes is that we cannot find everybody that`s committed to an act of violence. HAYES: There are some reports indicating that -- well, there are several reports indicating that one of the suspects involved here was previously convicted on charges of attempting to join the insurgency in Iraq, that he actually served time. What is your knowledge, the degree to which the law enforcement officials have a handle on, you know, people that have connections to networks that might produce such an attack? BORELLI: Again, it`s very difficult because once somebody`s in the system, and then they get out, you`re looking at -- you know, do you follow them 24 hours a day? You can`t. That`s very, very resource intensive. HAYES: Well, also, presumably there`s a judicial argument, someone`s convicted and they served their time. BORELLI: Exactly. But you try to build a network of intelligence that would be people in the community, people that kind of are your eyes and ears. There are other technical surveillance. There`s a lot of things you can do, again, all within the legal framework. HAYES: How long can you -- I mean, I have to say, surprised that they have not been apprehended as of yet when you consider the amount of resources that are being thrown as something like this. I mean, how long can you imagine plausibly they will be able to stay outside? BORELLI: With today`s social media and crowd sourcing the information, I think not all that long. Maybe they are in custody. I guess there`s some ambiguity about what the official status is. But once the names are released and people say, I know that person -- HAYES: Or I`ve seen their pictures. BORELLI: I`ve seen their picture. Like we saw in Boston, it was very soon after the photos were released that the information was flooding in. And that`s likely what`s happening right now in France, if in fact if they`re maybe not already in custody. HAYES: Don Borelli, thank you very much for your time. BORELLI: Thanks, Chris. HAYES: There`s other news to report tonight, specifically what seems to be possibly a near-miss terror attack here in the U.S. That story is next. (COMMERCIAL BREK) HAYES: Federal agents and local law enforcement in Colorado are on the lookout for a balding white man in his 40s who may be driving a dirty pickup truck. It could have an open tailgate or a missing or covered license plate. That man is considered a person of interest in a case out of Colorado Springs, where a home made bomb was placed outside the NAACP building. A statement from the FBI reads in part, "We are investigating all potential motives at this time and an act of domestic terrorism is certainly one possibility." There`s very little damage to the NAACP office building, which also houses a barber shop. Thankfully, no one was hurt. But things could have been much worse. The FBI said a gas can had been placed next to the device but did not ignite during the explosion. Yesterday`s attack happened in broad daylight while volunteers were working inside a local chapter of America`s oldest civil rights organization. Although it is not yet known if the motive behind the home-made explosive was a hate crime, the FBI is quoted as saying we believe it was deliberately set and are investigating all potential motives at this time. A hate crime is one possibility. If the attack does in fact turn out to be an attempted act of terrorism or a crime, it would not be the first time the NAACP has been targeted. In 1989 what was described as a tear gas mail bomb attack, the NAACP`s Atlanta offices injured eight people including an infant. And, of course, there`s Medgar Evers to become the first field officer in Mississippi who was assassinated in 1963. Congressman and civil rights icon John Lewis tweeted, quote, "I`m deeply troubled by the bombing in Colorado. It reminds me of another period. These stories cannot be swept under the rug. #NAACPBombing." Joining me now, Jesse Paul, he`s been covering the story for Denver Post where he is the Breaking News reporter. Jesse, what is the latest as of this hour? JESSE PAUL, BREAKING NEWS REPORTER AT THE DENVER POST: You know, we still don`t know too much beyond what the FBI said yesterday. I spoke with FBI spokeswoman this morning who basically said that they weren`t -- that they weren`t ready to release any new details in the case. I was down there this morning at the NAACP Office and at the barber shop, that building, and the, you know, the federal investigators were gone, all the evidence have been taken away, and sad (ph) for damage, some minor damage to the building basically. You wouldn`t really know that the attack actually happened. HAYES: would anyone see this happens -- when it happened? And is that how the description of the person of interest came about? PAUL: Yeah. I mean, it`s unclear if there was a direct witness to the actual explosion. What I was basically told was that there were some neighbors that saw this person of interest fleeing from the area after the explosion happened. But, again, this happened in broad day - daylight. It was a really nice day down in Colorado Springs and this NAACP Office is in a street mall, it`s not (ph) on a busy road. It`s in small community. There`s lots of people around, lots of people heard the blast. HAYES: Is the understanding that -- that -- that the item that ignited was placed next to a gasoline can. The gasoline can was there as kind of an improvised explosive device intending to create a much larger explosion? PAUL: I think that`s what the FBI has -- has been alluding to, but again I think it`s really important to mention that the FBI hasn`t definitively said that the NAACP was the target of this, what appears to be an intentional explosion. You know, there was this barbershop there. You know, I spoke with the barber today, he said, "You know, I have no enemies. There`s -- there`s no way that this was -- this was me." The overall feeling is that this was targeted at the NAACP, but I think it I s important to mention that there hasn`t been official word yet saying that the NAACP Office there was -- was the direct target. HAYES: We should also say the NAACP itself has been relatively cautious about all this. Yesterday they were sort of tamping down any speculation that it might have been of a political nature. They continue to do their work. Jesse Paul, thank you very much. PAUL: Thank you. HAYES: More on the latest developments in today`s terror attack in Paris, next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HAYES: There are conflicting reports at this hour on whether French authorities currently have two of the suspects in today`s attack in their custody. Earlier in the hour, NBC News, Pete Williams told me he heard from some U.S. officials that one of the suspects had been killed; the remaining two were taken into custody. While other U.S. officials are saying that`s not what they`ve been told. Now, French authorities won`t say either way. Meanwhile, French people expressed weekly is reporting that reporters on the ground all night have said there were no shots fired, no signs of a suspect killed or arrested in Reims outside Paris. The AFT, the French Wire Service reports that the youngest of the three suspects has in fact surrendered to police. All around the world tonight people have been taking to the streets to show solidarity for the victims of the attack in Paris on satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo, holding signs of "Je Suis Charlie, I am Charlie." In Iran according to tweet from local reporter where writers and journalists are holding a vigil for the fallen comrades, and at a joint memo under the heading, "So Charlie Can Live," three major French media companies offered resources and equipment to the surviving staff of Charlie Hebdo so publication can continue to function after eight journalists, including Charlie Hebdo`s editor were gunned down at its headquarters this morning. Taking the social media cartoonists from around the world have been responding to the deaths of some of their most prominent colleagues as only they can. There`s this cartoon from Australian cartoonist, David Pope, who`s already been re-tweeted nearly 60,000 times and counting. This one which I love, posted the unofficial Facebook page of street artist Banksy for this from Chilean cartoonist, Francisco Olea, to arms companions with a photo of cartoonist`s tools. (Inaudible) have seen like an especially risky profession but editorial cartoonist quite often find themselves in the crosshairs of the institutions and the individuals they ridicule. Perhaps most famously there was the controversy in 2005 and 2006 over Danish cartoonists depicting the Prophet Muhammad which set off violent protest and death threats against the artists and others. Even now cartoonists are coming under threat in places like Turkey. The government of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan has been cracking down on cartoon satire. Joining me now, Pulitzer Prize winning editorial cartoonist for the Lexington Herald-Leader, the president of the Board of Directors of the Cartoonists Rights Network International, Joel Pett. Joel, your reaction to today`s massacre? JOEL PETT, EDITORIAL CARTOONIST, LEXINGTON HERALD-LEADER: Hi, Chris. Well, any of us who`ve been fortunate enough to meet cartoonists from around the world, go to cartooning confabs as I have been in Asia and Africa and even in Soviet Era (ph), Russia have recognized that this is a tribe of really like-minded kindred spirits, and it transcends nationality and even political ideology. We just like each other and, you know, we share the -- the same sort of soul searching laments about the human condition on good days, and on days like this, it`s just pretty tough to take. HAYES: The phenomenon of cartoonists finding themselves as subject of threats is more widespread than I think you might -- or folks might imagine. Obviously, the Danish cartoon controversy was the most publicized, but in your role, the organization you -- you serve on the board of, I mean, this is something that -- that -- that happens across the world every day. PETT: Yeah, it certainly is. If you look at Cartoonist Rights Network International`s Web site, you`ll see that we have clients all over the world and this happens on a very small scale, of course, so it doesn`t make headlines all the time. Usually not from terrorists, but at the hands of their own government, who, you know, intimidate and otherwise try to control this kind of free speech that is uncontrollable. HAYES: What is it about the medium that makes it so feared and -- and so powerful? I mean, we`re having -- you`re seeing people -- we`re having internal debates but -- whether we will show some of the - the more offensive or provocative cartoons. NBC News Centers has decided we should not as have other networks. There is something about the potency about those images that packs a punch that -- that -- that mere words or monologues don`t seem to. PETT: You know, that`s true. I think part of it is that it`s difficult to respond to ridicule and satire. I mean, if somebody draws you like a turtle, the way I do our Senator Mitch McConnell, you just can`t write back and say, "I`m not a turtle." (LAUGHTER) And, you know, it`s just -- it`s hard to respond to humorous satire and ridicule, and if you`re smart you just go along with it, and if you`re not, you try to stop it by force, which unfortunately happens all too often. HAYES: Is there a sense tonight among the tribe that you talked about of kind of collective grief, collective solidarity and -- and what steps to take in defiance of this? PETT: Well, certainly there is, and as you said earlier, you know, the only thing we know to do is draw more cartoons. But, you know, the pen may be mightier than the sword in the long run but there are certainly days when it sure don`t feel like it for right now. I think everybody shares the same sort of feeling of -- of helplessness. For me, and I can`t speak for the rest of the cartooning world on this, it is -- things like this are a wake-up call to not waste the opportunity that we have, any of us fortunate enough to have a platform in this country or anywhere else, to draw satire, need occasional reminders, not like this, of course, but that -- I hate to call it a serious business because clearly it isn`t, but there is some obligation to, if you`re going to be a provocateur, to provoke the right people and the right institutions for the right reasons. So, you know, little as that might be, that`s what I take away from it. HAYES: The idea that there`s a kind of -- in this -- in this satirical enterprise, a sort of solemnity to the -- to the actual weight that you bear in doing something that`s as meaningful and powerful as it is that people would kill over it. PETT: Yeah, it`s hard to fathom that. You know, for all of the international incidents that we have at CRNI to try to mitigate. There are very few of them in this country, and I think it`s a combination of the fact that, well, first of all, the corporations have done a pretty good job of silencing the cartoonists simply by laying us off, so much more civilized. But secondly and more seriously, I think that we don`t take the kinds of chances, publishers and editors, cartoonists will, but publishers and editors in this country don`t take the kinds of chances that -- that some others do around the world. It`s impossible to imagine really "the New York Times" or "the Wall Street Journal," neither of which even run political cartoons or "USA Today" which, to their credit, do, really taking on something that had a real cutting edge possibility of -- of provoking. HAYES: Yeah. PETT: . you know, something big. HAYES: Yeah, it`s hard to imagine a large American publication that would be running precisely the cartoons that were being run in this publication which we should know it, had a relatively small circulation. This was not Le Monde. PETT: Right. (CROSSTALK) HAYES: (Inaudible) talk about. PETT: This was a satire journal, not a large daily, but even Le Monde, you know, the Paris Daily runs page one editorial cartoons by Jean Plantu that are, you know, against the Jihadists. HAYES: Yeah. PETT: And I think it takes a lot of guts to do that. HAYES: Sure does. Joel Pett, thank you. All right. If today`s attack on the offices of "Charlie Hebdo" were in retaliation for the publication`s present -- representation of Islam and the Prophet Muhammad, what does that mean for the future of free speech? I`ll be joined by a panel including someone whose father was threatened at his home by an armed Islamic group after speaking out against fundamentalism and terrorism. Stay with us. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HAYES: Today`s bloody attacks in Paris come in the context of a long a running debate in France, in Europe and across the world about the right to offend what free speech and satire look like in an age when media is global. The barbarity of what happened today has me reconsidering some things I used to think. More on that ahead. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HAYES: With the exception of some Jihadi supporters on Twitter, some French figures, the Muslim world`s condemnation of today`s attack in Paris has been more or less unanimous, Arab governments, Muslim leaders and religious and academic organizations alike denouncing the shooting. At this point the attack appears to have been retaliation for the satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo`s representations of Islam and the Prophet Muhammad. If that bears out, this is a stick of dynamite thrust into what is already a deep and dangerous fault line running through France, Europe and across the world. Divide over the freedom of expression and offensiveness and what constitutes legitimate debate in an era of global media, when something published one place is something published everywhere. At a time of heightened tensions over questions of identity and security in Europe, today`s attack likely ISIS beheadings appear crafted to play into the worst fears, the worst stereotypes about the Jihadist threat. Every bit as barbaric as you have been led to believe and that they will come for you. When I first heard about the murders at the magazine`s office, I remember the controversy nearly 10 years ago over Danish cartoons mocking the Prophet Muhammad. At the time, I thought those cartoons were stupid, offensive and a lot of them were racist, and then if I were running a magazine, I wouldn`t publish them nor would I offer praise to those who did. They seemed a largely pointless prank. But upon seeing today`s murders, I admit to reconsidering. I can`t help but feel that what happened today retroactively enabled the sometimes offensive cartoons published in Charlie Hebdo and other places because the -- the magazine Hebdo and its staff were actually genuinely subject to violent reprisals, reprisals they stood up against courageously and at a tremendous cost, a cost we`re seeing today. And standing up against violent intimidation, that is noble even if the cartoons themselves may not always be. We will discuss the fine line the magazine artist and writers walk. Next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HAYES: We`re back. Joining me now, Michael Moynihan, columnist of the Daily Beast, Karima Bennoune, author of "Your Fatwa Does Not Apply Here," whose university professor father, as I mentioned earlier, was the subject of death threats by an armed Islamic group after he taught about Darwin, Arsalan Iftikhar, senior editor of the Islamic Monthly. All right. Karima, let me start with you. What is your reaction to today and does what happened today change your -- the prior believe beliefs you had yesterday about speech, offensiveness, violence and intimidation? KARIMA BENNOUNE, PROFESSOR UC DAVIS SCHOOL OF LAW: I`m completely horrified by what happened today. And like so many people of Muslim heritage around the world, I do want to say, I am Charlie in Arabic and a Charlie (ph) in French. As we, Charlie, really stand in solidarity with the victims and these people across France. This has not changed my view. In fact, it`s confirmed my belief that Muslim fundamentalist movement and the armed wings, in particular, are one of the major human rights threats that we face around the world and that we absolutely have to defeat these movements. HAYES: What does that mean though? What does defeat mean? BENNOUNE: Well, it means first going after and discrediting the ideology that motivates them. It means exposing their terrorist atrocities. Unfortunately, what happened today has been repeated across Muslim majority regions of the world. It reminds me of an awful attack on press house in Algiers in 1996. So it means really exposing the way in which they have victimized so many civilians including people of Muslim heritage themselves. It means, in the case of the armed wing of these movements that we`ve seen operating today, it means dismantling and taking apart and taking away the funding from those movements. And I think part of what it means is that people of Muslim heritage around the world have a responsibility to speak out against these atrocities, against the movements that carry them out, against the apologists for them. We have the responsibility to be as courageous as the people on the frontlines. People today are speaking out in places like Algeria, even somebody from Sudan signed a petition in support of the journalists at Charlie Hebdo. We need to have that courage as well. HAYES: Arsalan, I want to show you an image that people have been talking about this magazine and how it was -- I`ve heard the phrase, equal opportunity offender. Here`s one cartoon. At one point, they sort of found themselves condemned by -- from rabbis, catholic priests and Islamic clerics. And there are going to be people today, tomorrow, Friday night on Bill Maher who basically say, "Well, look who -- they offended everyone. They went after Jesus. They went after Catholics. They went after Jews. They went after everyone. And it`s only the Muslims that react violently. What are you going to say to the people that are going to and are saying that right now? ARSALAN IFTIKHAR, SENIOR EDITOR ISLAMIC MONTHLY: Well, Chris, I think it`s important to keep in mind that, you know, the acts of three murderers, you know, gunmen in Paris, France, do not, you know, equate to the acts of 1.7 billion Muslims on the face of the earth. I think it`s important to keep in mind that -- as you mentioned, you know, the 2005 Danish cartoon controversy, the 2011 bombing at Charlie Hebdo headquarters in Paris. You know, we`re in 2015 now. So you know, a lot of these cartoons are not even new. And you know, it`s important for, you know, free speech advocates and first amendment freaks around the world and in, you know, western and eastern societies to, you know, stand up in solidarity, you know, against any sort of violence perpetrated against people who are just trying to exercise free speech. You know, we all know that, you know, free speech is not absolute. You know that there`s no western, you know, liberal newspaper on the face of the earth that would publish anti-Semitic cartoons and rightfully so for understandable reasons. But I think when it comes to Islam and Muslims, you know, this sort of conflation in terms of, you know, the need for Muslim public intellectuals and leaders and Islamic scholars to come out and condemn, which, you know, obviously we have unanimously today, you know, still remains large because we want, you know, the rest of western societies to know that we are part and parcel of our -- of our nations. One of the 12 people who were actually killed, the 42-year-old policeman. HAYES: That`s right. IFTIKHAR: . who was gunned down on the sidewalk was actually a Muslim. HAYES: Right. IFTIKHAR: And so, you know, we are as much victims in this as anybody else. And you know, we are horrified and saddened by the tragedy today. HAYES: Michael, I think of you as kind of a maximalist on this. I think you and I probably have very different views of the decision to publish the Danish cartoons back in 2006. You thought they were affirmatively appraised where they endeavor. MICHAEL MOYNIHAN, COLUMNIST DAILY BEAST: Yes. And I even published them, too. HAYES: you publish them. Moynihan: I publish them on the website I ran in Sweden after a website in Sweden was shut down for publishing them. HAYES: But isn`t -- look, there -- I mean -- so there is this question right in the face -- my feeling today is that, you know, Rose dealt -- I thought he wrote (ph) his regular post, he said, "If it turns out that upon a year (ph) -- if a large enough group of people is willing to murder you for something then that -- saying that thing actually turns out to be something that needs to be said." (CROSSTALK) MOYNIHAN: (Inaudible). HAYES: But there is also the case of, you know, this question sort of offense for offense`s sake, right? And I guess -- what is your thinking about this? MOYNIHAN: Well, I mean, I can`t question their motivations. I don`t want to go around saying that Charlie Hebdo did it for the right reasons and Flemming Rose in Denmark didn`t. I know Flemming and I know (inaudible). (CROSSTALK) HAYES: (Inaudible) Danish cartoons. MOYNIHAN: So that`s a very kind of dicey (ph) thing to determine, you know, why. HAYES: Right. Because you do it for the right reason. MOYNIHAN: You know -- and people saying, "You know, I hear this a lot today that Charlie Hebdo is a left wing." Well, if it`s a left wing -- I don`t care if it`s a right wing. HAYES: Right. MOYNIHAN: Nobody deserves to go to jail, to be blown up, to be shot for these things. And I do make a few points, really fantastic intro to your first guest. It`s right to say, as everyone does say ad nauseam but not all, you know, 1.7 billion Muslims are terrorists. Let`s flip back here, just for a bit. Not all 1.7 billion Muslims are offended, by the way. I know many in the Muslim world -- many liberals out there who are Muslim, you know, are protesting also against this outrage and against censorship too. HAYES: Right. And Karima, that`s an interesting -- sometimes that it does get inverted, right? The assumption of offense can be as kind of stereotyping as the assumption of extremism. BENNOUNE: Absolutely. In the research that I did on Muslim opposition to fundamentalism, I interviewed a wonderful arts promoter in Lahore, Pakistan named (inaudible), and he said to me sitting in Lahore. This is somebody whose own festivals had been attacked. He said if the Prophet Mohammed had seen these cartoons, he would have had a laugh. Muslims can have a sense of humor as well. Muslims and people of Muslim heritage can appreciate satire. And we have to defend the right to blaspheme, which is different than the right to discriminate, which I absolutely oppose. HAYES: So, Arsalan, what do you -- do you worry about what tomorrow and the next week and the next month looks like in France and around Europe as this -- as the backlash to this grows? IFTIKHAR: Yes. Because, you know, in Germany right now in the last few weeks, you know, there have been 17,000 people who are, you know, showing up at anti-Muslim protests all around the country and obviously this is only going to exacerbate that. There are some reports that show, you know, the gunmen were screaming things like, "We are avenging the prophet," and they`ve done nothing but disgraced the prophet. I mean the Prophet Mohammed was insulted many times during his life and never once did he order to kill, you know, anybody in retribution for that. And so, you know, this is a -- you know, this is a completely devoid of religion. This is pure mass murder plain and simple and it doesn`t matter, you know, the nationality or the religion of the perpetrators. This is a crime against humanity. HAYES: I would say this, whether it`s devoid of religion or not, we don`t definitively know, we have witness accounts they shouted about the prophet. It was devoid of ideology. I mean, this was political violence, and it was meant to do something very specific, which is create retribution and to intimidate people who are engaging in speech. And I think that is what has so brought people out of the woodwork across the world, across a lot of faiths in opposition to it. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I think that`s the backbone of this is in very, very radical reading of Islam, but it is a political ideology. I mean, this doesn`t surprise me that this happened, unfortunately. I think the political fallout from this is very worrying because (INAUDIBLE) the party in France is vacillating between the biggest party, same thing, Danish people`s party. HAYES: That`s the story to sort of continue. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s a depressing end. HAYES: Michael Moynihan, (INAUDIBLE) Arsalan Iftikhar, thank you very much. That is "ALL IN" for this evening. THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED. END