NY Rep. Max Rose TRANSCRIPT: 4/27/20, The Last Word w/ Lawrence O. Donnell

Margaret Hamburg, Chris Van Hollen, Max Rose




And that New York milk story is a great example of how the supply chains

get disrupted because so much of the milk supply was destined for New York

City public schools, which is a very big consumer of New York state milk.

They`re all closed down. Those milk producers up there don`t have contracts

for delivering it elsewhere, and the governor has got to figure out how to

get that milk out into the world where it can get to the people who

desperately need it, can`t afford it.


RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC HOST: Right, and there are statewide contracts like

that that governors around the country need to fix. There is another

imbalances that are about commercial food producers who are used to selling

stuff in restaurants, and to the extent that restaurants are not operating,

those contracts need to be converted into retail contracts.


There is a role to play a significant role to play for USDA and the federal

government in terms of trying to fix those mismatches in supply and demand

so you don`t have hungry people in one place and food being dumped in the

other. USDA is pretty much asleep since the start of this crisis. But those

food short takes and food dumping things, that`s a sign of it.


O`DONNELL: Yes, we can only hope they come up with a structure that is

actually permanent so that it can always deliver food to people in need

rather than dump it or dump it in the quantities that happen sometimes.


MADDOW: Yes, capitalism needs assist in this one and it will be something

that we can really use right now and we could use in the long run. Yes,

thanks, my friend.


O`DONNELL: A permanent assist. Thank you, Rachel. Thank you.


Well, not all of us have been using our time very productively during this

shutdown but Max Rose has. Max Rose is a decorated combat army veteran that

serve in Afghanistan and serves the people of Staten Island and Brooklyn in

the United States Congress and Max Rose was deployed with the National

Guard on the ground in New York City this month.


Congressman Max Rose will join us at the end of this hour to tell us what

he saw and learned while he`s been deployed with the National Guard that he

will be bringing back to Washington when Congress considers the next steps

to repair the damage from the coronavirus pandemic in this country.


We begin tonight with the numbers. The United States now has 987,367

reported cases of coronavirus. And the United States now has 56,145

reported deaths from coronavirus. That means that tonight, in our sleep, we

will officially cross the million mark.


Tomorrow, we will have over a million reported cases of coronavirus in this

country, but those reported cases are just the tip of the iceberg since

more than 98 percent of us have not been tested. We will probably never

have an accurate count of the total number of coronavirus cases in the

United States, and we will probably never have an accurate count of number

of deaths caused by coronavirus since we now know that people were dying

from coronavirus before we even knew that the virus had reached the United

States. Thousands of people have died at home during this pandemic without

ever having been tested for coronavirus before or after death, and so we`ll

never know the real number.


And from the start, Donald Trump has not wanted us to know the real numbers

and has not wanted us to know any of the real numbers in this story. In

February, Donald Trump was trying to prevent a cruise ship from docking in

San Francisco so that some infected Americans could leave the ship. He was

afraid that would increase the coronavirus cases in America at that time.


When Donald Trump was trying to wish that number of cases down to zero, and

the last days of February, Donald Trump actually said, when you have 15

people and the 15 within a couple days is going to be down to close to

zero, that`s a pretty good job we`ve done. That sure would have been a

pretty good job if they did that.


And according to breaking news, a report on “The Washington Post” tonight,

at the time that Donald Trump said that and for weeks before Donald Trump

said that, the presidents` daily intelligence briefing was telling Donald

Trump repeatedly of the severity of the coronavirus threat to the United

States of America, a threat that Donald Trump ignored even though his

intelligence briefing was telling him about it every day.


“The Washington Post” reports tonight U.S. intelligence agencies issued

warnings about the novel coronavirus in more than a dozen classified

briefings prepared for President Trump in January and February, months

during which he continued to play down the threat according to current and

former U.S. officials.


The repeated warnings were conveyed in issues of the presidents` daily

brief, a sensitive report that is produced before dawn each day and

designed to call the president`s attention to the most significant global

developments and security threats. But the alarms appear to have failed to

register with the president to routinely skip reading the PDB and has at

times shown little patience for even the oral summary he takes to or

through times per week.


Here is how “The Washington Post” reported Greg Miller who co-wrote that

story explains the significance of the COVID-19 warnings in the presidents`

daily brief to Chris Hayes earlier tonight.





the U.S. intelligence analysts put their most important information. I

mean, so much a remarkable amount of energy and people go into preparing

this single report each and ever day, and not very many people get it.

Obviously, its main customer is the president of the United States. He

doesn`t read the PDB unlike his predecessors. He does not sit down each day

to digest this. He doesn`t read it, doesn`t skim it.




O`DONNELL: So the presidents` daily brief may turn out to be the best proof

of the presidents` daily failure to confront the threat to American lives

posed by the spreading coronavirus in January and February, and this is a

rerun of another Republican president`s failure to mobilize after receiving

a daily warning in the presidential daily brief, a deadly warning in the

daily brief, and that was a month before 9/11. The presidential daily brief

told President Bush that Osama bin Laden was, quote, determined to strike

in the U.S., end quote.


And so this is not the first time a president has failed to defend the

United States against a looming threat that the president was warned about.

But this is the first time that the president has become a threat himself.

This is the first time that a president`s own words amount to a deadly

threat to Americans. Donald Trump spent weeks illegally prescribing

prescription drugs on television to America at a White House microphone.


Anti-malaria drugs he was sure would work to stop COVID-19, and if it

didn`t, he repeatedly said, what have you got to lose? The answer was your

life. The anti-malaria drugs can set off deadly coronary reactions in some

people and that is something doctors have always known. And when a survey

of Veterans Administration patients showed that the death rate was higher

among patients who followed Donald Trump`s advice than the patients who did

not, then Donald Trump stopped talking about those anti-malaria drugs that

may have already killed thousands of people who thought they had nothing to

lose by using those drugs to fight COVID-19.


And then, on Thursday, Donald Trump suggested something that could kill any

of us, no matter how healthy we are, no matter how old we are, after he was

told something that day that the rest of us already knew that disinfectant

is a good way to clean your kitchen counter or your doorknobs in the era of






disinfectant where it knocks it out in a minute, one minute and is there a

way we can do something like that by injection inside or almost a cleaning

because you see it gets in the lungs and it does a tremendous number on the

lungs. It would be interesting to check that so you have to use medical

doctors but it sounds interesting to me.




O`DONNELL: None of the medical experts in the room at the time jumped up to

say this is deadly and you could die if you do anything that Donald Trump

just suggested. They failed that moment, the medical experts in the room.


Lysol immediately had to issue a life-saving emergency saying we must be

clear under no circumstance should our disinfectant products be

administered into the human body. For three straight days after Donald

Trump live in fear of reporters` questions. At the next White House

briefing on Friday, Donald Trump didn`t take questions and then America had

its most restful weekend yet in the era of coronavirus because no one had

to deal with the tension of King George III level madness being spread by

the president at a White House briefing.


Donald Trump gave the country a weekend off duty. A full weekend where no

one had to watch Donald Trump saying crazy and dangerous and indescribably

stupid things and the only people who could have been disappointed that

Donald Trump spent the weekend silently cowering in fear of reporters were

the people working on the Biden for president campaign who so far have

every right to believe that the White House briefings are the best thing

that has happened to the Biden campaign since Joe Biden secured

endorsements from all of his Democratic rivals.


A new “USA Today”/Suffolk University poll shows Joe Biden ahead of Donald

Trump outside of the margin of error 50-40. In that same poll, 64 percent

say Donald Trump is not honest and trustworthy. Of the minority who find

Donald Trump trustworthy, we can only hope they found Lysol`s statement

about drinking their product more trustworthy than Donald Trump`s

suggestion that Lysol might be the perfect medicine for coronavirus.


Today, the chaotic Trump White House went from no briefing on their

schedule to having a White House briefing on the schedule to then

cancelling the White House briefing from the schedule before then restoring

the White House briefing to the schedule. Donald Trump knew he was going to

get a question about disinfectant, but also knew he could just cut the

reporter short and not answer the question.




REPORTER: Now that other states, Governor Larry Hogan said they seen a

spike in people using disinfectant after your comments last week. I know

you said they were sarcastic.


TRUMP: I can`t imagine why. I can`t imagine why.


REPORTER: Do you take any responsibility –


TRUMP: No, I don`t. I can`t imagine – I can`t imagine that.


Go ahead, please.


REPORTER: Mr. President, Dr. Anthony Fauci says that we need –




O`DONNELL: That was it. No responsibility. Takes no responsibility and once

again, Donald Trump was able to count on the White House press corps`

tendency to not back each other up and change the subject when Donald Trump

wants to change the subject and so, that`s what happened. Change the

subject. No other questions about it, about the single most insane thing

ever spoken publicly by a president of the United States. No more



Dr. Najy Masri of Louisiana State University Hospital has been keeping a

video diary for us of life and death in New Orleans.





Soon we`re going to catch up and exceed the number of deaths that we saw in

our city of New Orleans from hurricane Katrina. It`s an interesting

parallel between COVID-19 and hurricane Katrina. I lived through both.


Katrina came and went. It was quick. We dealt with the aftermath the whole

time. But people could physically see the damage from Hurricane Katrina in

their homes, outside in their community, on TV.


COVID-19 is different. It`s a silent killer. People are stuck at home. They

don`t necessarily see the damage unless they have a family member or friend

afflicted with the virus or they`re a front line health care worker.


We need to keep in mind the fact that this is a silent killer, the fact

that it`s still out there in our community, understanding that we need to

come back to a new normal. Katrina changed the way we live in New Orleans.

COVID-19 is going to change the way we live in the world.




O`DONNELL: Leading off our discussion tonight are: Ben Rhodes, former

deputy national security adviser to President Obama. He`s also an MSNBC

political analyst.


John Heilemann is with us, a former national affairs analyst for NBC News

and MSNBC. He`s also the co-host of Showtime`s “The Circus”, and the editor

in chief of “The Recount”.


Ben, you handled the presidents` daily brief in the Obama White House. How

did President Obama handle the presidents` daily brief?


BEN RHODES, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, Lawrence, you know, I got over

1,000 PDBs, and what President Obama would do is every morning, he would

get a written briefing he would read in his residence and those of us who

are in the morning meeting with him would get the same briefing and then we

would all meet with the director of national intelligence in the Oval



The reason this is relevant, I learned about the Ebola outbreak from the

PBD. President Obama learned about the Ebola outbreak from the PBD. He

gotten reports in deaths in Africa, he had reports about an outbreak of the

new former Ebola.


What he did with the information is set up a government process. Let`s put

together an agency group, people from different relevant agencies, the NIH,

the CDC, and also the State Department involved in national security

agencies, and get them working on it.


And that PDB led to that government process which led to the deployment of

thousands of U.S. troops to West Africa who could facilitate the flow of

tens of thousands of health care workers to West Africa to stand out that

Ebola outbreak which killed two people in the United States.


The PDB is the warning to the president in the United States about the most

dangerous threats in the world. President Trump ignored those warnings. He

paid no attention to them, and what he clearly did is try to down play the

virus so that the stock market would somehow not tank, even though the

reality is that the virus itself was going to tank the stock market and he

tried to keep the numbers down instead of ramping up testing which is what

he should have done in February, he and keep the reporting of the numbers



So, this is someone who ignored the information that could have saved,

Lawrence, thousands if not tens of thousands of American lives. It`s

impossible to oversee the severity of his dereliction of duty as commander

in chief.


O`DONNELL: Ben, when President Obama saw the first reference to Ebola in

the presidents` daily brief, how quickly did he take action? Did he have to

see it several times in the brief by your memory? Was it the first time he

saw it that he said we got to do something about this?


RHODES: To be honest, what I remember is that there were reports of deaths

from an Ebola outbreak and that`s kind of get your attention. He said

something like, we got to keep our eye on this, right?


And then as you see this is not something that`s going away, it`s something

that is building, that is when he says to us, he has some familiarity with

both the potential of Ebola but also the lack of public health

infrastructure in West Africa, we better set up a process to deal with this

and get the best expert in the room to deal with this before anybody else

heard of it.


That`s what the PDB gives you the opportunity to do, Lawrence. It gives you

the opportunity to deal with something before everybody else heard of it

because our intelligence community is out there paying attention to this

stuff and on this show, I think, we probably talked about how President

Trump has disdained his intelligence community by saying you know, they are

fake news and don`t know what they are talking about and they`re wrong

about Russia.


They may have seemed like a reality show at the time. That`s what leads to

people dying in this country because we have a president who didn`t pay

attention to warnings because he refused to listen to his intelligence

community, because he doesn`t take his briefings, because he wants to be

briefed in pictures and not words.


We are living with the consequences of this.


It`s impossible to overstate the severity of a president ignoring what his

own intelligence community was trying to warn him about throughout January

and February.


O`DONNELL: John Heilemann, a new poll today, almost 2/3 of America thinks

Donald Trump is not trustworthy. Joe Biden opens up ten-point lead outside

margin of error.


Is that a reaction to the White House press briefings?



extent. I think it`s a reaction, Lawrence, to a lot of things, certainly to

fundamentally the pandemic itself.


And in the first order, fact there are a lot of scared Americans who are

focused in a way on their own health, on the health of their families, on

their well-being in a kind of laser-like way as we go through this

extraordinary period. In moments like that, rare in American life when

people are as focused as they are now on this kind of imminent threat, they

then look to the one person that they naturally instinctively look to for

leadership, before candor, for honesty, for guidance, for sympathy, for all

kinds of things that Americans look for their president, and they got none

of that from Donald Trump. Not just the stuff Ben was just talking about.

Obviously, all of that is correct but almost every quality that Americans

left and right, Republican and Democrat traditionally assume they will see

in a president of the United States, they`ve seen none of it from Donald

Trump in this crisis.


And I think the briefings, the daily briefings, those many hours that

Donald Trump has sucked up the air time that he sucked up, all of it to his

political disadvantage because for a lot of Americans who have various

expectations of a president, Donald Trump has fulfilled none of them, not

only his duties as commander in chief and as the chief executive of the

country, but on all of the other metrics, I think Americans increasingly

find him wanting and that`s what those polls, not just that poll, but many

other polls now across the battleground states nationally are showing.


O`DONNELL: And, John, at today`s White House briefing, the president

trotted out what seems to be his favorite version of it, which is a bunch

of high powered business executives, people running companies like Walmart

and the giant pharmacy chains around the country, but once again, making

some statements about what they might be able to achieve in the future on

testing after they`ve already failed to do what some of these same people

said they would do on testing in the past.


HEILEMANN: Right. I think, you know, that it`s – we`ve seen the show

before that we saw today and I`m not going to ever be in a position to

demean or denigrate the efforts of the private sector. I think there are a

lot of companies across America doing heroic work, and some of them are

trying to do heroic work. I think they are being put and right to be there

in some sense, they are trying to do what they can in the service, not of

the president but in the service of the country.


But I do think that we have seen that parade of CEOs up there before and

the record the president has to run on the record that I think, you know,

we`re talked about this on the show before and I`ll keep beating this drum

for the next nine months, this election now is almost inevitably going to

be a referendum on Donald Trump`s leadership and the particularly this

leadership in these three or four months, and early verdict, it`s not the

final verdict by any metric, by any measure, but the early verdict is

pretty conclusive that Americans think that Donald Trump has failed at the

most significant test of leadership that he`s faced so far.


O`DONNELL: John Heilemann, thank you for starting us off tonight.


And, Ben Rhodes, I want to thank you for joining us tonight and give you a

belated thank you for the work you did, along with others in the Obama

administration to contain Ebola, the story that is always worth retelling

with what we`re going through now. Thank you, Ben. Really appreciate you

joining us tonight.


And when we come back, we`ll be joined by President Obama`s former FDA

commissioner, Dr. Margaret Hamburg. We`ll get her view of where we stand on

the country`s progress on testing and the possibility of a vaccine. That`s








want you to understand that it can be you no matter what your age is, no

matter what your history is. We`ve seen patients in their 20s. We`ve seen

patients in their 90s and everything in between and all of them have been





O`DONNELL: “New York Magazine” is reporting, quote, we still don`t know how

the coronavirus is killing us. The disease has proved mercurial at the

clinical level with doctors revising their understanding of COVID-19`s

basic pattern and weaponry. The clinical shape of the disease, long

presumed to be a relatively predictable respiratory infection is getting

less clear by the week.


“The Washington Post” reports many doctors have, quote, seen how COVID-19

attacks not only the lungs but also the kidneys, heart, intestines, liver

and brain.


Until today, the CDC listed only three official symptoms of coronavirus,

cough, fever and shortness of breath or difficulty breathing. Today, the

CDC added six symptoms to that list, chills, repeated shaking with chills,

muscle pain, headache, sore throat and a new loss of taste or smell. The

World Health Organization today warned countries against issuing immunity






We expect people that are infected with COVID-19 to develop a response that

has some level of protection. What we don`t know right now is how strong

that protection is and if that is seen in everybody that`s infected and for

how long that lasts.




O`DONNELL: Joining our discussion is dr. Margaret Hamburg, former FDA

commissioner under President Obama and the former New York City health

commissioner. She`s the foreign secretary of the National Academy of



Dr. Hamburg, what is your assessment of where we are nationally on what we

have to be doing about testing? I listened to what they`re talking about at

the White House briefing today and it didn`t sound like any more real

concrete steps to getting testing out there, just more hopes of what might

happen in testing.



behind in terms of our testing capabilities and we remain far behind where

we need to be in terms of testing. We are clearly up against a very complex

and ferocious foe in this novel coronavirus and the disease COVID-19 that

it causes.


We need to be able to test so that we can understand how this epidemic is

unfolding, the contours, how it`s penetrated our communities and across the

country. We need also to be able to test very importantly so that we can

identify those who are infected, make sure that they are isolated from

spreading the disease to others and importantly getting care that they need

and then, of course, we need to use testing to guide our responses to ease

restrictions and open up but if we don`t know where we are in the epidemic

and who is at risk and who is infected, we will not be successful in those



O`DONNELL: I want to take your back to your old job as New York City health

commissioner and take us what you would be saying to the mayor and city

officials today what you would need to reopen New York City public schools

and I asked that because so much else in the economy is dependent on the

schools opening.


Would you need for example the ability to test all students or test all

faculty members whenever necessary?


HAMBURG: Well, we need to still learn about the nature of this virus and

the risk for spread and how to contain it. We have come to understand that

children are less at risk in terms of symptomatic disease and the many

complications that come with infection. But we now understand they can be

asymptomatic carriers. What we don`t know is how much they are bringing

that disease home to others in the household or spreading it in the



So, we need to continue to deepen our understanding so we have to look at

the experiences of other countries and places that are starting to open up

their schools and also return to other kinds of larger scale gathering

settings and continue to learn, we can`t give an answer tomorrow whether

the school should open up in the fall. We don`t know enough. But we need to

have more testing. We need to make sure that we had the systems with public

health to follow up, to be able – after we test and identify those who are

infected, to isolate them, to do contact tracing and quarantine of those

who`ve been exposed to make sure that they aren`t sick.


And we need to be thinking about how we will reconfigure certain of our

settings like schools in terms of are there ways to make them less dense to

maintain social distancing to some degree or another. And I think you know

it`s going to be very, very hard at the younger ages to maintain social

distancing. It`s sort of the opposite of what school is all about. And it`s

probably a false hope that kids will wear their masks and wash their hands

enough and everything. But we have to start building in those new



Going back to school for college age, I think, it`s going to be a bit

easier, because much of it can still be done online and you can distance in

classrooms et cetera. But these are complex questions and I don`t envy my

colleagues working at the local level in terms of public health. But I

think it also goes to the fact that we need more guidance at the federal

level working with state and local health departments so we can have much

clearer guidelines and more consistency of message.


O`DONNELL: Dr. Margaret Hamburg great to have you back on the show. We need

you to come back to expand on all of those points you were just making.

Really appreciate you being here tonight.


HAMBURG: Pleasure to be with you. Thank you.


O`DONNELL: Thank you. And when we come back Mitch McConnell told New York

State to just go bankrupt in the face of its funding difficulties with this

pandemic. And New York Governor Andrew Cuomo told Mitch McConnell exactly

what he could do with that idea. That is next.




O`DONNELL: In the 1980s New York`s senior Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan

started issuing an annual report about how much more money New York State

contributed to the federal government than it got back from the federal

government in federal spending. Senator Moynihan could never get any media

attention through that annual report. He once joked to me that maybe he

should label it top secret and somehow leak it to the press and then maybe

he`d get their attention.


But now New York Governor Andrew Cuomo has the country`s attention every

day and Mitch McConnell made the mistake of giving Andrew Cuomo exactly

what he needed in order to make people understand how much New York state

contributes to the federal government and to other states like Mitch

McConnell`s Kentucky which takes much more money from the federal

government than Kentucky contributes to the federal government.


Mitch McConnell suggested that the way for the states to handle their

current funding crisis in the face of this pandemic is to simply declare

bankruptcy. Q Andrew Cuomo–




GOV. ANDREW CUOMO (D-NY): –if you want to go to who`s getting bailed out

and who paid what, nobody would be bailing out New York State. New York

State has been bailing them out every year for decades. If you want to do

an analysis of who is a giver and who is a taker, we are the number one

giver. And if you want to look at who happened to be the donor states - who

were the giver states, they are same states that they`re talking about now.

Who were the taker states Kentucky–




O`DONNELL: Joining our discussion now Senator Chris Van Hollen who is a

Democrat from Maryland. He`s a member of the Senate Budget and

Appropriations Committees. Senator Van Hollen, one of the things I think is

exhibited by Mitch McConnell`s comment is the bankruptcy of Mitch McConnell

and Republican ideas about what to do about how to help this country in

this unprecedented situation.


SEN. CHRIS VAN HOLLEN (D-MD): Well that`s right, Lawrence. Look, I disagree

with a lot of things Senator McConnell says, but this goes down as one of

the dumber things he`s ever said. If you look at his proposal, it would

drag our economy down faster and further if you really were going to say to

all these states that have been hit hard by the coronavirus just declare



And as Governor Cuomo has pointed out, those are the very states that have

been the engines of federal revenue. Revenue that states like Kentucky have

used to help support the people in the State of Kentucky. So McConnell

really stepped in on these remarks and it looks like now he`s trying to



O`DONNELL: Senator what are you looking for next? The Senate is going to

reconvene, I think, in about a week. What do you think should be the next

steps that the Senate considers in how the country fights this pandemic?


HOLLEN: Well, I think at the top of the list has to be assistance to state

and local governments. So, essentially, what Mitch McConnell was saying the

other day was to our first responders, to our firefighters, to our police,

to those on the front lines you know, we`re not we`re not going to be there

for you. We the federal government we`re going to be there for big

corporations, we`re going to be there for the airline industry. But we`re

not going to be there for those who are on the front lines.


Congress has got to do that. We`ve got to come together. These states are

losing revenue for the same reason businesses are losing revenue. People

aren`t walking in the door and that`s not - it`s generating less revenue.

This is the time the federal government needs to help those who are on the

front line. So that needs to be a big part of it.


We also need to really get serious about creating a national supply chain

and production of testing equipment. Today, the President came out and

unveiled this so-called testing regime. All it was contracting the

challenge out to the states. It was just more sort of hocus pocus. What we

really need is for the federal government to invest in production capacity

to get these supplies. So those are two things that really need to be in

the next round.


O`DONNELL: And what about oversight of what the Congress has already done.

We`re hearing stories about the small business program that are just



HOLLEN: Yes, I`m glad you raised that, because we did make some important

changes in this most recent bill that passed last week. You`ll remember,

Mitch McConnell tried to rush through a replenishment of that fund without

any additional reforms or strings attached. Fortunately, we said no we will

replenish these funds, but we need to direct a lot more funds through local

lenders, community lenders to really help the moms and pops who were left

out of round one.


So we`re hoping that that will be helpful. There are some other reforms

that should have been made as part of this recent bill that were rejected

by the Trump administration and Secretary of the Treasury Mnuchin. So we`re

going to have to go back to that because otherwise we may continue to see

stories about how the well-connected - those who have connections to the

biggest banks are first in line, when in fact we need to make sure this

money gets to where it`s needed most.


O`DONNELL: Senator Hollen–


HOLLEN: I think that`s an important part of what`s going forward.


O`DONNELL: Thank you very much, Senator. Thank you for joining us tonight.

Really appreciate it. Thank you. And when we come back, last week on this

program you heard from Pete Vegas about how easy it was for him to get a

small business loan for his legitimate small business, but he decided he

didn`t feel right about accepting that loan and his experience with it made

him think that the small business program amounted to legalized fraud.


After this break we`ll tell you what Pete Vegas decided to do with his loan

money. And we`ll be joined by MSNBC Stephanie Ruhle with some of what she`s

been finding in that so-called Paycheck Protection Program.




O`DONNELL: The Los Angeles Lakers franchise is valued at $3.7 billion,

which does not fit most people`s definition of a small business. But Los

Angeles Lakers applied for and received a $4.6 million loan in the first

round of the new Paycheck Protection Program designed to help small

businesses keep people on their payrolls.


The Lakers organization now says that they will return the money, but

that`s only because the organization`s disgraceful grab of that money was

made public. One of the people who helped expose the problems with the

small business loans Pete Vegas joined us on this program last week after

writing an op-ed in “The Wall Street Journal” where he said his experience

with the loan program made it appear to be a fraud.


After his appearance on this program last week, Pete Vegas decided to repay

these $3.4 million loan that his company - his small business legitimately

obtained from that small business program and we should all think business

operators like Pete Vegas who tell the truth about how this has worked for

them. And in Pete Vegas`s case he had the honorable sense of duty that made

him return that money and we commend him for that.


Joining us now is Stephanie Ruhle Senior Business Correspondent for NBC

News and MSNBC. And Stephanie it`s not an accident. We know what small

business is, but Republicans define small business in legislative language

to include $3.7 billion companies like the Los Angeles Lakers. It`s not an

accident. It`s the way they write the law.



write the law. But what`s so puzzling to me is how in the last week

lawmakers on both sides of the aisle who signed off on this legislation are

now furious and angry and shaming businesses and saying how dare you take

that money.


Businesses, that we`d like them to all operate with better angels on their

shoulders, they`re all suffering right now. With the exception of very few

industries they`re all suffering. So when new legislation is out and money

is available to them there`s a really good chance they`re going to apply

for it.


But we turn to our government to set the rules to make sure the money goes

to the appropriate party. So when you have lawmakers - when you have Steve

Mnuchin say these businesses who shouldn`t have taken the money, they

should expect the harshest of consequences. Newsflash, the consequences

will be nothing besides public shaming, because technically they haven`t

broken the law, they haven`t violated any of the rules.


The lawmakers set these rules. So when the lawmakers say, well, we leave it

to the banks. The banks better get this thing done. We`re disappointed in

them. What do you expect unless? You make it really clear what you want and

there`s punishment on the other side, they`re going to do what they`re

going to do.


O`DONNELL: Stephanie Ruhle, thank you very much for joining us tonight, and

thank you for covering this as closely as you have. We really appreciate



RUHLE: Thank you.


O`DONNELL: And when we come back we`ll be joined by New York Democratic

Congressman Max Rose. Congressman Rose is also a Captain in the New York

National Guard and has spent this month helping to build a hospital on

Staten Island which is now treating coronavirus patients. We`ll talk with

Max Rose about that next.




O`DONNELL: Here is Captain Max Rose after the National Guard used a

psychiatric center to set up a COVID-19 hospital on Staten Island.




REP. MAX ROSE (D-NY): To our medical professionals, look, I - you all are

the soldiers in this war and it`s just truly, truly unbelievable. Look,

this is the first COVID only hospital to be established in the entire

country. So for the rest of your lives, this is just an unbelievable,

unbelievable achievement.


And like Dr. Ardolic said, your team has just been unbelievable. You guys

came in here five days ago and we stood up a hospital. So this has been

just an honor of my life to work with each and every one of you.


On behalf of all of Staten Island and all of New York, just thank you from

the bottom of my heart. You are saving lives, and you`re going to continue

at this facility. So god bless you.




O`DONNELL: Captain Rose is also Congressman Rose who represents Staten

Island and some of Brooklyn and joining us now is Congressman Max Rose of

New York. Congressman, thank you very much for joining us tonight. What

have you learned in your weeks of deployment with the National Guard in New

York working on Staten Island that you want to bring back to members of

Congress when you reconvene?


ROSE: Thanks for having me. It`s good to see you. Look, what I learned and

what I experienced was also something quite frankly that we all knew and

we`re seeing well before, which is that we have heroes on the front lines



Our medical professionals, our nurses, our doctors, our physician`s

assistants, and so many others are risking their lives each and every day

to keep us safe and they`re going home and dealing with incredible stress

as well, worried that they`re getting their family sick, sometimes

isolating themselves from their family. And we`ve had this discussion for

weeks now about ways that we have got to be there for them, but this crisis

will continue to go on and their service continues to go on - all the

people that you saw in that video.


Look, I didn`t do anything. I was there for a couple of weeks. But they`re

still out there and we`ve got to figure out a way to put the division

aside. There`s Blue State versus Red State rhetoric that is bubbling up

now. We have to think about them who each and every day are putting the

country first.


O`DONNELL: Congressman this is the same place that had to rebuild that

survived Hurricane Sandy, rebuild after Hurricane Sandy and I was out there

a lot after that and saw a spirit on Staten Island that is very, very

special and it`s special to that place. Talk about what it`s like when

Staten Island comes together like this.


ROSE: Well, first of all, you know, we call them essential workers now. But

the folks living on Staten Island, and also in the South Brooklyn portion

of my congressional district as well, these are the people who serve New

York City. Cops, the firemen, the nurses, the teachers, First Responders,

sanitation workers, they`re the reason why the lives of New York City go

on. They are the folks who are putting their lives on the line each and

every day.


Who, we have said openly, you can`t stay at home. You can`t isolate like

the rest of us. No, we need you. And it is a community filled with heroes.

Heroes who we only seldom recognize, but heroes who put their lives on the

line and serve this city for their entire career. And they don`t do it,

because they`re looking for any thanks.


They don`t do it because they`re looking for any outward forms of

gratitude. They do it because they love this country and because they are

true experts at their craft and we should be thanking not only them each

and every day, but thanking them with real wages and real protections.

That`s also what they`re deserving of, not just our thanks.


O`DONNELL: And it seems that New York is past its peak or perhaps past what

might be its first peak, what do you say to people who are wondering how

much longer they`re going to have to observe these rules - Governor Cuomo`s

rules about this, when it seems to them like perhaps we`re past the worst

of it.


ROSE: Well, first of all, we have to acknowledge the deep economic pain

that people are going through. It`s not - this is not just a health crisis.

This is an economic crisis and you`re seeing - I see each and every day in

my community and I speak to small business owners who have given their

entire life to their business, their entire life to the restaurant or their



Doctors, who have given their entire life to their practice and they are

seeing it slowly, slowly die before their eyes. And we have got to tell

them that there is a plan in place for them to regain their livelihood.


But the last thing that we want - the last thing that we want is for them

to just to open up and then have to return back. We can`t afford for that

to happen. So we have to get the resources in from the federal government

for testing. We certainly have to maintain the solidarity that we`ve

maintained to date.


And we`re going to get this economy going again. This is the greatest

country in the history of the world and we`re going to stay United.


O`DONNELL: Congressman Max Rose gets tonight`s LAST WORD. Thank you for

your National Guard service and thank you for joining us tonight. We really

appreciate it.








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