Pres. Trump clashes with friends and foes. TRANSCRIPT: 12/3/19, The Last Word w/ Lawrence O’Donnell.

Adam Schiff, Lance Dodes

LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, MSNBC HOST:  Good evening, Rachel.


And our first guest tonight is Chairman Adam Schiff, which I can`t wait to

get to. 




O`DONNELL:  But I want to make a note of something as we begin this hour of

coverage and after your hour of coverage tonight and what a packed and

historic night it is.  We have had a major development, major development

today in the campaign for president.  Senator Kamala Harris dropping out of

the race. 


And I think – I didn`t get every word of your show, but I think that

amounted to a sentence or two. 


MADDOW:  It was the first sentence but it was – I know. 


O`DONNELL:  And that`s what I`ve got.  I can`t – there`s not going to be a

segment about that here because of what we have to cover, and I really want

to do that campaign the justice it deserves, but this is where we are.  And

the way this story is developing in the impeachment process. 


MADDOW:  We`ll get to it at some point.  And I will say it`s not just

Kamala Harris dropping out of the race.  It`s the shocking fact that Kamala

Harris is dropping out of the race. 




MADDOW:  And I know there`s all these people like oh, yeah I saw this

coming.  No, you didn`t.  Nobody saw this coming.  Anybody who says this

was inevitable thing to happen today is not telling the truth.


It is a shocking development in this race.  And we will give it its due in

due course, but, yes, the news over-runneth right now. 


O`DONNELL:  And what certainly couldn`t have seen coming a few months ago

is if Kamala Harris leaves the race or a candidate of that stature leaves

the race, we won`t even be able to cover it with what we have to handle. 

And, Rachel, I heard you talking to Chuck Rosenberg about the call logs

obtained by the committee which absolutely fascinate me since we went

through those hearings having no idea that they have the call logs. 


One of the things I`m going to ask Chairman Schiff about is did the

Republicans know – did Devin Nunes any that you had his phone calls? 


MADDOW:  Yes.  And while you were sitting there and he was berating you for

being like, you know who the whistleblower is, and you are a secret

traitor, like did you just quietly know yourself, Devin, I know you were

talking to Lev Parnas and Rudy Giuliani through this entire process.  And

did you just – I mean, you`re going to ask him.  I`ll let you go. 


O`DONNELL:  Rachel, it`s one of those illustrations of as transparent as

this process is with televised hearings and all of that, we and often get

the feeling we have all the information, that we know everything, and this

report comes out today.  And it just pops with information.  We had no idea

that they had. 


MADDOW:  Even after all of those public hearings and a reading of all the

transcripts of the closed door stuff, they still had more.  And the

investigation isn`t over.  And they`re still collecting new stuff. 


And Lev Parnas is now enrolling production from his materials.  I mean,

man.  Anyway, go, Lawrence, go.


O`DONNELL:  Onto Adam Schiff.  Thank you, Rachel. 


MADDOW:  Thank you.


O`DONNELL:  Well, we`ll be joined by a psychiatrist tonight to consider

what the president of the United States said today about our first guest,

Congressman Adam Schiff, the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee. 

It sounded like Donald Trump was actually talking about himself when he

said, quote, I think Adam Schiff is a deranged human being. 


The president said those words today in London where people are much more

familiar with madness in heads of state.  The madness of George III was a

hit play n the west end of London in the 1990s, and was then adapted as a

film entitled “The Madness of King George”, which you should see. 


The madness of Donald Trump was on full display on this historic day for

his presidency.  And Adam Schiff`s introductory comments to a 300-page

impeachment inquiry report by the House Intelligence Committee, in

consultation with the House Committee on Oversight and Reform and the House

Committee on Foreign Affairs, Chairman Schiff wrote: The president became

the author of his own impeachment.


When Chairman Schiff made the report public today, he said this. 




REP. ADAM SCHIFF (D-CA):  This report chronicles a scheme by the president

of the United States to coerce an ally, Ukraine, that is at war with an

adversary, Russia, into doing the president`s political dirty work.  It

involves a scheme in which Donald Trump withheld official acts, a White

House meeting, as well as hundreds of millions of dollars of needed

military assistance in order to compel that power to deliver two

investigations that he believed would assist his re-election campaign. 




O`DONNELL:  “The New York Times” calls the report a sweeping indictment of

the president`s behavior.  The report says that knowledge of and

participation in the president`s scheme was widespread and included the

vice president, the secretary of state, the acting chief of staff, the

secretary of energy and other senior U.S. officials. 


Chairman Schiff said that the committee will continue its investigation but

needed to present these findings as quickly as possible because of, quote,

a clear and present danger that the president will continue to use the

power of his office for his personal, political gain. 


And leading off our discussion tonight is the chairman of the House

Intelligence Committee, Democratic Congressman Adam Schiff of California.


Chairman Schiff, thank you very much for joining us on this important and

historic night. 


What can you tell us about the possible continued elements of your

investigation that might be continuing beyond this point? 


SCHIFF:  Well, there`s a lot that we still have to learn about the conduct

of others.  So, we know I think very well what the president did that he

withheld this military assistance, that he withheld this meeting in the

White House to coerce Ukraine into doing investigations to help his re-

election campaign.  But how much involvement did the secretary of state

have in this? 


We know he was in the loop from the documentary evidence and testimony of

Ambassador Sondland.  We know the vice president was made aware of the

conditionality of the military aid on these political investigations.  We

certainly know Mick Mulvaney was deeply involved in this.  There`s more to

learn about their role. 


There`s also more to learn about when this whole scheme began because there

are indications it started far earlier than we might have expected, that

indeed some elements of this go back to when the prior president of

Ukraine, Poroshenko, was in office, efforts to get that president and his

attorney general, Lutsenko, to engage in his sham investigations to help

Donald Trump.  So, there are more things to learn. 


But at the same time, one thing we know already without a doubt and that is

this president will do it again.  Indeed, he`s never stopped inviting

foreign interference in our election, and for that reason, we really cannot

delay.  We took up the report and voted for the report.  That goes now to

the Judiciary Committee which will have to weigh whether articles are



O`DONNELL:  The big surprise for us who followed all the hearings is the

revelation of all these call records involving Rudy Giuliani, also

involving Devin Nunes, member of the committee.  That was – we didn`t know

that when we were watching the hearings. 


When did the committee discover these phone records? 


SCHIFF:  Well, you know, there are a number of records we`re able to obtain

and we obtain them over time, so I can`t pinpoint for you which records we

learned about when.  But nonetheless, these records show just the kind of

interaction between these different players in the midst of this scheme

where you have Rudy Giuliani calling the White House and calling the Office

of Management and Budget. 


Now, why is the president`s attorney calling the Office of Management and

Budget which is holding up the military assistance?  You have Giuliani

obviously working with Parnas.  Parnas in touch with this reporter for “The

Hill” magazine that`s printing these false allegations about the Bidens,

about Ukrainians supposed interference in the last election.  And, of

course, you have the ranking member Mr. Nunes also in touch with these



And so, we`re trying to identify the full scope of those who were complicit

in what the president were doing, and these records give a window of

insight into exactly that. 


O`DONNELL:  Did the – did the Republican members of the committee know

that you had these telephone records while, for example, the hearings were

going on? 


SCHIFF:  Yes.  In fact, the Republican members were made aware of the

subpoenas that we were sending out.  The Republican members were given the

same phone records and other records that we received.  And so they`ve had

this evidence as well. 


Now, what they`ve chosen to do with it, whether they chose to look into it,

ignore it, or hope it got swept under the rug, I can`t say.  But, yes, they

were privy to this information as well. 


O`DONNELL:  So, as we were watching Devin Nunes in the hearings, he knew

that you had obtained phone records that included him and that those phone

records would inevitably be made public by your report. 


SCHIFF:  Well, he certainly had possession of the records.  Now, how much

he looked into them, how much he discussed what they showed with his staff,

I really can`t say.  You`d have to ask him. 


But he`s certainly aware of his own conduct.  He`s certainly aware of his

communications with Mr. Giuliani or Mr. Parnas or with others.  And whether

that or to what degree that informed his conduct during the course of the

hearings are again questions for him to answer. 


O`DONNELL:  There are some calls in there in which it`s not clear – it`s

not identified exactly who Rudy Giuliani is speaking to.  There`s “The New

York Times” report tonight indicating that the possibility is the president

could be on the other end of those phone calls.  What can you tell us about



SCHIFF:  Well, you know, the short answer is we don`t know for sure.  We

have been trying to get records from the White House which has been

unwilling not only to share them with us, but it looks like unwilling to

share them with witnesses like their own ambassador to the E.U., Gordon



But we can`t see in the Roger Stone trial that when Roger Stone was in

communication with the president, it showed up as a dash one number. 

Whether that`s the same situation here, we don`t know, but we`re trying to

find out.  It is worth noting, however, that Rudy Giuliani has one client

in the White House and, of course, that`s the president. 


So this is part of the picture that we continue to investigate.  But given

that the evidence against the president is already overwhelming, we were

not prepared to let it slow us down. 


O`DONNELL:  I want to get your response to what the president said about

you today in London.  Let`s just listen that for a second. 





deranged human being.  I think he grew up with a complex for lots of

reasons that are obvious.  I think he`s a very sick man, and he lies. 




O`DONNELL:  Now, as I said, we`re going to have a psychiatrist actually

react to that later in the hour.  But what did you feel when you heard that



SCHIFF:  Well, you know, he gets more and more untethered over time.  And,

you know, I certainly have the same impression that you`re likely to hear

from the professional who comes on your show, which is this a president

who`s done nothing but project onto others his own lack of morality. 

That`s unfortunately not a unique character trait or pathology to this

president.  We`ve seen it exhibited in some of the members of Congress, but

that certainly what appears to be the case as far as I`m concerned. 


O`DONNELL:  Now, you, of course, we`ve seen you shrug off these kinds of

comments by the president in the past.  But it`s comments like that about

some of the witnesses in this case that actually found their way into your

report.  And you suggest that includes witness intimidation by the



SCHIFF:  Yes.  And that`s part of a long pattern which goes back to the

Mueller investigation in which he was calling those who would cooperate

with authorities like Michael Cohen a rat, in which he would praise people

like Manafort guilty of multiple federal crimes because he wouldn`t

cooperate with authorities and in which he would attack anyone who spoke

critically of him or even more seriously exposed wrongdoing, misconduct,

abuse by him.  And of course his greatest venom is reserved for the

whistle-blower because the president believes he has a god given right as

president of the United States to abuse the power of his office and not

have to suffer people exposing it – who he considers to be traitors and



If you expose people of wrongdoing as traitors and spies, it`s because you

are the state, that your interests are commensurate, equal to, co-extensive

with the interest of the United States.  That is not the case here.  And

sadly, we have a president who believes that he has every right to use and

abuse the power of his office to help his re-election campaign, to force

allies to do his dirty work. 


And the American people have a right and a need to expect better in the

president of the United States. 


O`DONNELL:  Chairman Schiff, where does the investigation go from here? 

You voted tonight, the committee voted tonight to deliver this report and

its evidence and all the underlying evidence to the Judiciary Committee. 

When will the Judiciary Committee have that information, and when will they

be able to act on it? 


SCHIFF:  Well, the report will be transmitted immediately.  We`ll also be

transmitting the evidence that underlines the report.  That may take a bit

more time. 


But they`re also moving with alacrity and with thoroughness.  They`re going

begin tomorrow with constitutional experts to talk about import of all

this, what does this mean this clause in the Constitution about treason,

bribery, high crimes and misdemeanors. 


What did the Founders mean when they talked about bribery?  Is it the same

as we understand the criminal defense of bribery or is it in fact broader? 

Does it encompass when the president of the United States is trading his

public trust, trading his office in exchange for political favors? 

Something of great value to him. 


So, that discussion is going to begin immediately.  That`s going to begin

tomorrow.  But there`s also going to be other proceedings on the Judiciary

Committee which I`ll leave Chairman Nadler to describe. 


O`DONNELL:  Chairman Adam Schiff, we can`t thank you enough for finding the

time to join us on this historic night.  We really appreciate it.  Thank

you very much. 


SCHIFF:  Thank you. 


O`DONNELL:  Coming up, the surprise witness in the House Intelligence

Committee impeachment report today is Rudy Giuliani`s telephone.  Ari

Melber and Barbara McQuade will join us next on what we learn from the new

evidence presented today in the report. 




O`DONNELL:  Rudy Giuliani did not testify in the House Intelligence

Committee`s impeachment investigation, but his telephone did.  Phone

records obtained in the investigation made public today for the first time

in the committee`s report reveal several phone calls Rudy Giuliani had with

the White House and with the Office of Management and Budget in April and

August when Rudy Giuliani was trying to help Donald Trump force Ukraine to

investigate Joe Biden. 


The phone records also show five phone calls between Rudy Giuliani and

Republican Congressman Devin Nunes on April 10th.  And just two days later,

according to the phone records, Devin Nunes had a nearly nine-minute phone

call with Rudy Giuliani`s associate Lev Parnas who is now a criminal

defendant in a federal investigation in New York City. 


Joining us now is Ari Melber, MSNBC`s chief legal correspondent and host of

“THE BEAT.”  And Barbara McQuade is with us.  She`s a former U.S. attorney

and MSNBC legal contributor. 


And, Ari, I asked Chairman Schiff about the phone call that`s not fully

identified.  Rudy Giuliani and who, and is that the president of the United

States?  We`ll find out maybe. 



Chairman Schiff was fascinating for several reasons including your line of

questioning about when did Devin Nunes know he was busted. 


O`DONNELL:  Right. 


MELBER:  And how did he know it. 


O`DONNELL:  Well, as you know, the committee usually shares information

with everyone on a committee, right?  And so, I`m just – when I saw that

today, I thought when did they tell Nunes they had him? 


MELBER:  And I took – I`m curious what you thought.  I took the chairman

to be saying to you they gave him that information among other material in

a stack, whether he did or his staff did the homework is up to them. 


O`DONNELL:  Right.  It could have been buried.  But you know, how could

they miss it? 


MELBER:  Yes.  So, there`s that.  There`s this very mysterious interesting

tantalizing material about who is minus one, negative one, all the

different mysteries. 


Obviously as the chairman said, Rudy Giuliani`s formal relationship is with

the president.  So, it is a reasonable inference that would be one of his

intended calls.  The other surrounded texts in April when he first makes

contact with the Budget Office and in August when there`s a flurry of

activity does tie Rudy Giuliani and his client back into all this, whether

or not the White House ever confirms or denies what that call signature



O`DONNELL:  Barbara McQuade, what did you make of the new evidence we

discovered in the report today? 


BARBARA MCQUADE, MSNBC LEGAL CONTRIBUTOR:  I thought it was fascinating,

and, Lawrence, I think you`re absolutely right to focus on this.  This is

really the only new bombshell we see in the report in terms of facts. 


But two things.  Number one, the involvement of Rudy Giuliani talking to

this person only identified as White House dash one, can`t help but wonder

if that isn`t the same person as individual one and tying it to President

Trump.  Certainly, we know Rudy Giuliani from his own statements was acting

as a lawyer, a personal lawyer for president Trump. 


So, even if he`s talking to someone else at the White House, I think he`s

there as an agent of the president, and it brings the president into many

of the transactions involved in this case. 


The other is the involvement of Devin Nunes talking not only to Giuliani

but also talking to Lev Parnas.  Devin Nunes is a witness here.  The idea

he`s sitting as a fact finder and has a vote in impeachment, that is

astonishing.  He could be recused from this and called to testify to find

out what on earth he`s talking with Rudy Giuliani and Devin Nunes. 


O`DONNELL:  Ari, you worked in the Congress.  Are you as stunned as I am at

the speed, the quality, the length, the detail of this report? 


MELBER:  It`s really striking, Lawrence.  The Mueller report was years in

the making with professional prosecutors, investigators and a lot of people

forced to sing because they were on their way to jail.  They had fewer

legal weapons here, and they`ve come up with something that is very



In some ways, the Mueller report had more depth and legal rigor.  It

certainly had a constitutional section that was detailed.  But I would put

this on par with the fact finding section, and particularly in regard to

the election conspiracy. 


Mueller ultimately didn`t find one of these in 2016.  Adam Schiff and his

team not only say they`ve found one, they`ve laid out the evidence from the

call notes, to the attempt by Giuliani and Sondland to ghost-write a

foreign government`s investigation of the Bidens, that`s in there and side

by side. 


I could see now more than I could yesterday why this White House took the

giant gamble and risk of defying everything, which looks bad.  And

Republicans in Washington and plenty of conservative scholars and other

honest intellectual conservatives says that looks bad, but it does look

bad.  And they took that risk because complying and turning over other

records and stuff like this, would have been far worse.  It would have been

a full self-impeachment self-dunk, end zone, safety whatever analogy you

want to use. 


And so, you see the defiance because the little bit that`s come out is bad

and the report is exhaustive.  And that`s before you can get to the

obstruction section, which like the Mueller report, that`s where the two

are in tandem.  A portrait of the president like Nixon and other presidents

who faced this process who is not taking care that the laws be faithfully



O`DONNELL:  Barbara, that`s such a good point Ari just made about the

nondefense that the president is offering.  And it`s something you do see

in courtrooms once in a while when the prosecution puts on a case and the

defense basically stands up and rests without calling a single witness,

never mind the defendant, because they actually don`t have an affirmative

defense.  All they could do is hope they could push around some witnesses

that the prosecution put on.  That seems to be what we`re watching here. 


MCQUADE:  Yes, I think, you know, they`re going for sometimes it`s referred

to as failure of proof, trying to persuade the fact finder the prosecutor

didn`t make his case or even nullification, that is we all know that the

case has been made, but we`re asking you to show some mercy or decide we

don`t care what the facts show.  And we want to do what we want to do

because we think that`s the better outcome here.


And I think essentially that`s the defense.  Hey, Senate, Republican

controls you and yes we`ve done all these things but in the words of Mick

Mulvaney, get over it.  We care more about keeping our guy in the White

House.  We don`t care he`s abused power.  We don`t care he`s put his self-

interests above the interests of the country.  We don`t care he`s

obstructed Congress and perhaps set a bar for all future presidents because

all we care about is keeping our party in power. 


And if that`s the case I hope there will be some people who break ranks and

choose country over party. 


MELBER:  Well, it`s a great point.  And, Lawrence, it goes to something

beyond the law and goes to the strange Trump era we`re in.  How many loud

communication strategist bullies have gone quiet and choked with the

evidence hit them? 


Paul Manafort would tell politicians what to say for a living, he went

quiet.  Roger Stone, the master dirty trickster strategist couldn`t take

the stand, convicted on most counts.  Donald Trump in the center of all of

it, so much tough talk, so many tweets, where is he today?  He was

traveling.  Where was he last week?  Hiding undercover.


Where will he be at tomorrow`s hearing?  Ducking after claiming he wanted

to send lawyers.  Neither he nor his lawyer will show up tomorrow morning.


There has been a lot of bluster, it has been completely wiped out,

demolished and exposed as soon as there`s a process where instead of tweets

and attacks, there is still – we have still rule of law in this country

and if you lie under oath you`ll get in trouble.  So, a lot of people have

gone quiet.  I think that`s another telling part of this whole fact-finding



O`DONNELL:  Barbara, the Giuliani evidence may also be evidence in an

investigation of Rudy Giuliani by federal prosecutors in the Southern

District of New York.  Do you see any avenues in today`s evidence for them? 


MCQUADE:  I do.  You know, Lev Parnas is a really intriguing figure.  He`s

all but begging for an opportunity to testify and tell us what he knows. 

Because these records tell us what calls occurred.  It doesn`t tell us what

the contents of those calls were. 


Lev Parnas is someone who can tell us at least what the content of those

calls was.  He is a person who could share a lot of interesting information

about Rudy Giuliani and about Devin Nunes and about what was going on. 


And so, I think there is some – I have some intrigue about what he has to

say there.  And the Southern District of New York has something that he

wants, which is recommendation for leniency in a sentence, and it`ll be

interesting to see whether they make that trade so the public can hear what

Lev Parnas has to say. 


O`DONNELL:  Barbara McQuade, thank you very much.  And, Ari Melber, thank

you very much.  And thank you every night at 6:00 p.m. for shaping my

thinking on all of this, and I can steal half of that to use at 10:00. 


MELBER:  Thank you, sir.  I got my practice in this business sitting there

and I never forget from you and your team. 


O`DONNELL:  We have run out of compliment time. 


Coming up, once again we will be joined by a psychiatrist to evaluate the

president`s behavior today.  Dr. Lance Dodes has joined us on this subject

before, and he will give us his view what Donald Trump might have been

thinking when he was talking about Adam Schiff today. 




O`DONNELL: Yesterday former Republican Presidential campaign manager, Steve

Schmidt said this. “U.S. senators defending Trump`s bribery and extortion

plot are accomplices, not dupes. When the defense rests on a misinformation

campaign launched by the Russian intelligence services, it makes them

useful idiots.”


Today one Republican Senator refused to be a useful idiot.




SEN. MITT ROMNEY (R-UT): I saw no evidence from our intelligence community

nor from the representatives today from the Department of State that there

is any evidence of any kind that suggests that Ukraine interfered in our

elections. We have ample evidence that Russia interfered in our elections.




O`DONNELL: Joining our discussion now is Steve Schmidt, former Republican

strategist and MSNBC political analyst. Steve, when Mitt Romney says it, it

just seems so easy to say, it seems so clear and yet, where are the rest of

the Republican senators?



extraordinary to see in this moment an entire Republican congressional

majority capitulate their oath to Donald Trump that there`s obviously no

higher cost for them, not country, not the constitution, not their oath

than service to Donald Trump.


And it`s alarming. We saw a poll that got a lot of attention on Twitter

today. It was an August poll from the PEW and it talked about that 43

percent of Republicans now believe, that it`s OK to get rid of the checks

and balances that it would be good if the President wasn`t so incumbered by

Congress or by the courts to enact his will, to enact his legislation and

there`s a word for a leader who has that power, it`s a dictator.


It`s a Netma to the American experiment and we have never in this country

more ever seen anything like it and so putting aside for a second, the

corruption, the bribery and extortion scheme as bad as that is, the real

crisis is this rising sense of authoritarianism in the country and its

acceptance by so many Republicans, not to mention the leaders we invest

with very significant authority and power in Washington DC.


Senator Kennedy from Louisiana got on television with Chuck Todd and he

echoed word for word Russian propaganda. He cited things that were simply

not true, he cited evidence in The Economist and other magazines that never

occurred echoing a Russian misinformation campaign.


This man is a United States senator who swore an oath to defend the

constitution of the United States, who`s doing the bidding of a hostile

foreign power. We are in unchartered territory and nobody should

underestimate how profoundly dangerous it is.


O`DONNELL: There has been, I think no Republican senator who has been - who

has given up more of himself to Donald Trump than Lindsey Graham. Let`s

listen to what Senator Lindsey Graham said when he was endorsing Ted Cruz

for President.




SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): Trump would destroy my party because of who he

is and the way he behaves. Steve, he got it right that day.




SCHMIDT: Well, he`s shown himself to be a man of no principle, lacking any

type of public integrity, somebody who obviously, proximity to power is an

aphrodisiac and what I - what I described him as not too long ago is, he`s

like a pile of fish that hangs around the predator fish like a shark,

living off the detritus.


And for a long time he swam next to a noble shark and that shark was named

John McCain but that shark is gone and now we have Donald Trump and though

the detritus is vile, he remains well fed and so what we see there is one



But there`s many, many more of principle-less politicians in Washington, of

them Republicans, in this instance who their fidelity to Trump, their

obedience to him, that is their highest calling and we should have a

particular contempt for those senators who we know, know better.


The Ben Sasses of the world, the Rob Portmans of the world, the John Thunes

of the world. Why is it that these men want to be United States senators?

What is it that they`re doing up there? They stand for office to defend

their unprecedented corruption? This assault on the constitutional order?


This erosion of civil liberties? This rotation in the American mind of

fatefulness to the American experiment in this country despite all its

flaws is a miracle. It was a miracle birth in 1787, no republic has endured

permanently and this one is in trouble because the American people in

substantial numbers are losing sight of the majesty of this system of

government, which is based on the premise that no man or woman is above the



In this country, the law is supreme and we see one of the two great

political parties in the country, the second - excuse me, the third oldest

political party in the world, transforming in a matter of 36 months into a

cult of personality where the allegiance isn`t to the flag, isn`t to the

country, isn`t to the constitution, but to a man, to a person and a corrupt

man who is sundering the country and assailing the constitution literally

with every breath he takes.


O`DONNELL: Steve Schmidt, thank you very much for your eloquence on this

tonight, really appreciate it.


SCHMIDT: Thank you Lawrence.


O`DONNELL: And when we come back, we will look at the madness of Donald

Trump on full display on this historic day in his presidency as the

impeachment investigation against the President proceeds and proceeds

quickly. That`s next.







ISIS fighters? I could give them to you. You can take everyone you want.




O`DONNELL: President Macron, I`m sorry but Donald Trump does not know how

to be serious. There are a few intersecting factors that leave Donald Trump

stranded as America`s clown on the international stage as he was once again

today. Donald Trump first and foremost, the most ignorant person ever to

hold the office of President.


His ignorance appears to be limitless. He has never publicly spoken with

any authority on any serious subject, any Presidential subject. Donald

Trump`s lack of real information combines with what appears to be gravely

limited intellectual capacity.


So that when Donald Trump as President is supplied with good information,

he is incapable of processing it. He seems like a lost elementary school

student who just can`t process multiplication or even addition.




REPORTER: Does the United States support these protesters in Iran?


TRUMP: I don`t want to comment on that, but the answer`s no, but I don`t

want to comment on that.




O`DONNELL: He doesn`t want to comment on that because he has no idea what

he`s talking about. After he said that, his advisers must have explained to

him how crazy his answer was, and so he later today tried to repair that

damage with this.




TRUMP: A question was asked, do we support them, I thought financially and

we haven`t supported it. I don`t know that we`ve ever been asked to support

them financially and you know if somebody asked, maybe we would, but we

support them very, very seriously.




O`DONNELL: Financially? No one has ever suggested supporting protesters in

Iran financially and no one was asking about financially. That was Donald

Trump`s demented way of trying to repair the damage of his earlier demented

answered and I use the word demented because that`s the word Donald Trump

said would apply to Adam Schiff today in a description of Adam Schiff that

sounded like anyone else in the world describing Donald Trump, which brings

us to the madness of Donald Trump.


Or the possible madness of Donald Trump, perhaps the most important

explainer of the things that Donald Trump says and does. After this break,

we will be joined by psychiatrist Lance Dodes who will consider the mental

health of the President of the United States, beginning with what Donald

Trump had to say about Adam Schiff today.




O`DONNELL: The fragile mental state of Donald Trump was on display today in

London, especially when he described Adam Schiff in a way that to many,

sounded like a reasonably accurate description of Donald Trump.




TRUMP: I think Adam Schiff is a deranged human being. I think he grew up

with a complex for lots of reasons that are obvious. I think he`s a very

sick man and he lies.




O`DONNELL: Joining our discussion now Dr. Lance Dodes, a former Assistant

Clinical Professor of Psychiatry at Harvard Medical School. Dr. Dodes is a

contributor to the best-selling book, “The dangerous case of Donald Trump.”


37 psychiatrists and mental health experts assess a President. Dr. Dodes,

there he is today saying, “I think Adam Schiff is a deranged human being.

He grew up with a complex for lots of reasons that are obvious. I think

he`s a very sick man and he lies.” What`s your reaction to Donald Trump

saying that about Adam Schiff.



MEDICAL SCHOOL: Well you had Rep. Schiff on earlier and I think you got it

exactly right. He said this is a projection, that`s exactly what it is. He

tells other people that they are what - what he is. It`s a common enough

mechanism in early childhood and it`s - but as an adult using it all the

time, it`s what we would call primitive.


It`s - if - if Donald Trump were capable of giving a reasonable discussion

of something he didn`t agree with, he would make some sort of logical case

but he`s unable to do that. He runs kind of a simple program in that way.

So he tells you - tells you that other people are what he is being accused

of and what he actually is.


O`DONNELL: So in that sense Doctor, does that mean that his source material

for what he is saying is almost always himself because that`s - that`s the

only source material he has.


DODES: Yes. Everything is about him as you pointed out. He doesn`t have

actual knowledge so he just says what feels right to him and especially

what is for him. What he thinks is in his personal interest. Your other

guest was pointing out that he is replacing America with himself and people

who support him support him rather than the country and I think that`s also

exactly right.


Like many strong men, the con that he has works because he identifies

himself with something that they love. In this case America so as long as

they have the idea that he is America, that he represents America, he

literally wraps himself in the flag which he`s done, then it doesn`t matter

that he`s a sociopath, doesn`t matter he has no conscience.


It doesn`t even matter that he commits crimes against humanity which he did

when he locked up children in cages on the border. As long as they think he

represents what they love, they will support him.


O`DONNELL: I want to listen to something else down from said today in

London and we`re going to hear him say that he doesn`t - he`s not going to

say this and then he says it in the next sentence. Let`s watch this.




TRUMP: In some way, it`s better to wait till after the election if you want

to know the truth. I think in some ways it`s better to wait till after the

election with China. But I`m not going to say that. I just think that. I

just said you. In some ways I like the idea of waiting till after the

election for the China deal.




O`DONNELL: So right in the middle of all that, we hear him say I`m not

going to say that. I just think that and he`s already said it and then he

says it again.


DODES: Well again, this is - you have to understand. This is a man as I

said, who was running really a very simple program. I don`t say that as an

insult. It`s just because it`s true. He can only do what he does and he is

in in a way, he`s limited by the limited capacity of a person with early

emotional development.


He doesn`t have much complexity to him so he says what he thinks and then

he - you know it doesn`t matter whether it`s true, truth means nothing to

him and other people mean nothing to him. Once you get that concept that

nothing matters, that no conscience, no of morality and everything else

falls into place and truth means nothing.


O`DONNELL: In your experience, Doctor, how does a person end up like this?

What are the develop - what`s the developmental path to this kind of



DODES: It`s very early, almost all people don`t have this problem. One of

the ironies is that most of the people who support Donald Trump would make

a far better President than Donald Trump because they`re not as ill but if

the early capacity to have empathy for other people, to identify them as

have as being worthwhile and caring about them, happens at all human beings

at a very early point.


He doesn`t have that and that`s why he can treat other people with complete

abandon. He literally abandoned them. If they`re for him, he loves them. If

they`re against him, they`re horrible.


It`s as I say, it`s black and white and very simple.


O`DONNELL: Writing in 2017 in the book that did we mentioned, `The

Dangerous Case of Donald Trump,` you said that these characteristics will

only become worse. Do you see evidence that that has happened?


DODES: Absolutely and they will continue to be worse. If he didn`t have his

party behind him, he would have been out of the office a long time ago

because he`s so obviously incompetent but he will be propped up.


As long as he is propped up, I think he`ll survive but he will certainly

get worse, the more he`s challenged.


O`DONNELL: Dr. Lance Dodes, thank you for joining us once again tonight. We

always appreciate it. Thank you very much.


DODES: Sure.


O`DONNELL: And when we come back, Last Word viewers get tonight`s last





O`DONNELL: Time for tonight`s Last Word and there is still time left to do

something for Giving Tuesday. MSNBC is the signature media partner of

Giving Tuesday for the sixth year in a row and here at The Last Word,

always give to the Kind Fund on Giving Tuesday.


Kids in need of Desks is the partnership I created with MSNBC and UNICEF to

build desks in factories in Malawi which creates jobs for workers in those

factories, who then deliver the desks to schools in Malawi where the kids

have never seen desks.


Since we started the Kind Fund, nine years ago, your generosity has

delivered desks to about a million kids in Malawi schools. Last night we

introduced you to one of those children, 13-year old Maggie Thundu. Maggie

told us that finally having a desk in her classroom is making her work even

harder to achieve her dream of becoming a nurse.


Ali tweeted, as a registered nurse, it is thrilling to honor Maggie and her

quest too by ordering five desks to get more children off the floor in

Malawi. Christie tweeted, “Just made my annual donation for a student desks

to the Kind Fund. It`s such a joy to see the pictures of the students

getting their desks each year.


Elizabeth tweeted, “For Giving Tuesday, I am donating a kind desk in honor

of my late mother Juanita Phillips Johnson Thompson, educator known as

daughter of Africa. She`d be so pleased to know that a young girl in Malawi

has a chance to shine.


Nick Ramsey, formerly a producer of the Last Word who is now working in the

Eleventh Hour with Brian Williams tweeted, “..For all the years I worked on

the Last Word, I loved getting to work on the Kind Fund. Lawrence started

with Unicef and MSNBC, helping school kids in Malawi.


You can help this Giving Tuesday just like I did. Thanks Nick. There are

still over 2 million kids in Malawi classrooms who do not have a desks so

we have a long way to go. You can go to and give a

desk in the name of anyone on your holiday gift list and UNICEF will send

that person a notification of the gift you have given in their name.


You can also provide scholarships for girls to attend high school in Malawi

where like many African countries public high school is not free. Julie

tweeted, “Every year I donate a scholarship to educate a girl in Malawi and

it feels good. Just $177 provides a year of education to a girl in Malawi.”


You can choose to contribute any amount for a scholarship or the purchase

of the desk. No contribution is too small. Robin tweeted, “I`m donating

here today and would encourage my friends to do so as well. No amount is

too small.”


Thank you all for your kindness and generosity, this Giving Tuesday and the

children of Malawi thank you too.








O`DONNELL: That is tonight`s LAST WORD. “THE 11TH HOUR” with Brian Williams

starts now.







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