Giuliani talks about needing cash. TRANSCRIPT: 10/25/19, The Last Word w/ Lawrence O’Donnell.
RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC HOST: Where does the time go? That does it for us
tonight. We will see you again on Monday. Have an excellent weekend. Now
it’s time for “The Last Word” where Katy Tur is in for Lawrence tonight.
Good evening, Katy
KATY TUR, MSNBC HOST: Have a great weekend, Rachel. Thank you very much.
MADDOW: Thanks, Katy.
TUR: I’m Katy Tur in for Lawrence O’Donnell. Ahead tonight, the butt-dial
heard around the world. We have details of Rudy Giuliani’s accidental calls
to an NBC reporter including his attacks on the Bidens and his apparent
need for a lot of cash.
And a former “Apprentice” contestant who has accused Donald Trump of sexual
assault in 2007 has presented evidence in a new court filing to back up her
climbs. What’s next in the ongoing court case?
But first we begin tonight with an exclusive report from NBC News about
some of the 65 hours of closed-door testimony given to the House
impeachment committees by Trump administration officials.
NBC News reports, “At least three current and former U.S. officials have
all made the same startling admission; a coveted White House visit for the
new Ukrainian leader had been explicitly conditioned on his agreeing to
investigations that could have helped President Trump’s re-election.”
“And when U.S. ambassador to the E.U., Gordon Sondland, was asked point-
blank under oath whether that constituted a quid pro quo, he did not
dispute it, people with knowledge of his testimony said.”
NBC News reports that, thanks to testimony like this and thanks to public
comments from Trump, his aides, and his allies, “a portrait is emerging of
a quid pro quo that evolved over time with the president progressively
upping the ante when his demands were not met.”
This development comes on the heels of a double victory in court for House
Democrats. The chief judge for the D.C. district court has ruled that the
Justice Department must hand over grand jury evidence from Special Counsel
Robert Mueller’s investigation to the House Judiciary Committee by October
“Politico” calls the decision a “groundbreaking victory for Democrats in
their effort to investigate whether President Donald Trump should be
impeached for obstructing the long-running Russia probe.”
Grand jury information is typically kept a secret, but Judge Beryl Howell
said in her opinion that the disclosures are in, “the public’s interest in
a diligent and thorough investigation into and in a final determination
about potentially impeachable conduct by the president described in the
Mueller report. The need for the material to be kept secret is minimal, and
thus easily outweighed by the compelling need for the material.”
That’s one of the victories from this court ruling. The second, Judge
Howell dismissed claims from the White House and Congressional Republicans
that the impeachment inquiry is illegitimate because it has not been
authorized in a formal House vote.
Judge Howell wrote, “Even in cases of presidential impeachment, a House
resolution has never, in fact, been required to begin an impeachment
inquiry.” Republicans had claimed that the House Judiciary Committee cannot
begin impeachment proceedings without a formal vote of the House and that
even if it could; Speaker Nancy Pelosi is not empowered to simply grant
that authority to the judiciary committee.
But Judge Howell rejected those arguments writing, “These contentions are
at worst red herrings and at best, incorrect.” Leading off our discussion
tonight are Natasha Bertrand, national security correspondent for
“politico” and an MSNBC contributor.
Lisa Graves, former staff member of the Senate Judiciary Committee and
former deputy assistant attorney general under President Clinton and Evan
McMullin, former CIA operative and a former independent presidential
candidate. He is the co-founder of Stand Up Republic.
So Lisa, I do want to start with you. This is a ruling that is not going to
be, I guess, taken well by House Republicans in the White House. They
wanted to say over and over again that this impeachment inquiry was
illegal. It was unconstitutional because they never held a vote.
LISA GRAVES, FORMER STAFF MEMBER, SENATE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: Well those
arguments are simply misplaced and Judge Howell, the chief judge in the
District of Columbia, was very clear in her analysis showing why that
argument is deeply flawed.
And she also talked at length about how this is fully consistent with
centuries of legal precedent, of judicial decisions in terms of access to
material like this as well as a long-standing interpretation of the
And the power of Congress to conduct these investigations without having
any of the procedural hurdles that the House has attempted to assert,
including statements by the founding fathers, by the framers about the
power of Congress to investigate these matters in a quasi-judicial manner.
TUR: Natasha, the “Washington Post” reports that Trump and his advisers
are now starting to get worried about the impeachment inquiry and they
write, “After weeks of dismissing the impeachment inquiry as a hallow
partisan attack, President Trump and his closest advisers now recognize the
snowballing probe poses a serious threat to the president and that they
have little power to block it, according to multiple aides and advisers.”
Walk us through what you have learned so far about the impeachment inquiry
and why – why it’s going to give the president and his advisers, why it is
giving them such pause.
NATSHA BERTRAND, MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR: Yes. Well, if you speak to Republicans
on the Hill, they would say it’s about time the White House started getting
serious about this impeachment inquiry. I mean, just the cascade of
administration officials that we’ve seen going to the Hill and defying
explicit administration orders not to testify is reason enough for the
White House to be very concerned by the precedent that sets.
I mean, you have career diplomats at the State Department who in direct
defiance of what state has told them to do, which is not testify, have been
testifying for hours on Capitol Hill, sometimes for as many as 12 hours at
a time about all of the things that they saw going on with regard to the
Ukraine matter and of course, potential abuse of power by the president.
Now you have Tim Morrison, who of course, is on the National Security
Council, who has said that he will testify if he is subpoenaed. He is a
very, very important figure in this because he has the position, of course,
that Fiona Hill had. He has responsibility for the Europe portfolio,
Ukraine, and Russia.
And so he was in a position during all of this craziness with regard to
Trump’s, you know, pressure on the Ukrainian president to get him to launch
investigations into the Bidens and Ukrainian interference in the election
He had a first – he had a window into that, a direct window into that and
he was interacting directly with the officials who were involved in this.
So he is defying the White House orders not to testify, and you have other
White House officials, former and current considering doing the same.
So, I think Republicans now would say, look, the White House really has to
start getting serious about this.
TUR: So with these officials acting in defiance and with the continuing
release of revelations that are damaging to the president and his no quid
pro quo defense, Evan, not only that, but the grand jury materials that
will now be released to Democrats are going to have the wealth of what
Robert Mueller was able to dig up.
At what point or do you see a point, I guess, where Republican support
starts to crack in a serious way, more so than Mitt Romney is saying he’s
EVAN MCMULLIN, FORMER CIA OPERATIVE: Well, I think you look at the Senate
and the House differently, of course, because of the political dynamics
that are just different for a six-year term senators and two-year term
Look, I’m hopeful that there will be a handful, maybe a dozen
optimistically Republicans who ultimately in the House vote for
impeachment. But I think one thing to understand here, we’ve all been
asking the question for years. When are Republicans going to decide that
President Trump is no longer worth supporting?
You know, I don’t think that’s the right question anymore. I think really
the way we need to see this is that these members, especially of the House,
it’s not like most of them actually love the president and it’s not like
they’re actually trying to protect the president per se.
It’s more that they’re trying to protect themselves. They understand that
their power, that their seats, that their survival in primary contests in
their districts in years ahead, not only, you know, in 2020 but beyond
that, they understand their prospects which are probably overly optimistic
for this cycle, winning back the House.
All have everything to do with whether the president implodes, whether his
presidency implodes, or whether he somehow survives this politically. I’m
not even talking about conviction and removal in the Senate. But it’s about
them protecting their own power.
And for that reason the president’s going to be able to continue to do a
lot of terrible things as long as he can keep his base with him. He’ll keep
most of them, I’m sad to say, in line too.
TUR: Well, I guess that’s the better question. At one point to Republican
voters, not even Republican voters, Trump voters start to say, you know
what, I’m a little tired of this or this makes me uncomfortable. I wonder
if there is a point and if this is or what might change their mind.
I’m curious though about something we learned from an ambassador – from
diplomat Bill Taylor, and I’m curious about what we might learn more about
it. He talks about, Lisa, being on a conference call, a video conference
call while he is still in Ukraine and there’s somebody from OMB in the
They’re off camera and they say we were told not to release the funds. The
president told the chief of staff who told OMB. That seems to be a pretty
direct link to the president of the United States.
GRAVES: That certainly does seem like a very direct link and it also is a
sign of video evidence as well as potential audio evidence and we know
there was an attempt by this White House to move material into more
secretive files to try to prevent it from being disclosed.
It’s sort of different from the Nixon missing time on the tapes. Here you
have video and potentially audio as well as documentary notes of
conversations with the president that really should be made available to
Congress in its investigation.
TUR: Natalie, John Bolton – john Bolton testifying, potentially his
lawyers are in contact with the House committees. What do you think,
Natasha, – sorry, not Natalie – what do you think John Bolton might be
able – it’s 10:00 on a Friday and I’ve got a sick baby at home, so you’re
going to have to forgive me.
BERTRAND: No explanation needed.
TUR: What do you think of John Bolton potentially testifying in front of
House committees and what could that do to the president’s defenses?
BERTRAND: Yes, it’s a huge escalation if it does happen because, of
course, John Bolton did not leave on the best terms and he has not been shy
about speaking out against the president and his policies in recent months
since he was kind of unceremoniously fired or resigned – I guess it
depends on who you ask.
But there’s a new wrinkle in this and this is just being reported as of a
few minutes ago by the “New York Times,” which is that Bolton’s deputy has
now filed a lawsuit trying to compel a court to tell him who he has to
listen to, the White House or Congress.
Does he have to listen to Congress when they subpoena him for testimony or
does he have to listen to the White House when they tell him that he can’t
The decision that the court hands down obviously will have wide-ranging
implications for the other officials who the White House tells not to
testify and the Congress wants to hear from in the impeachment inquiry.
So, Charles Kupperman, that’s the deputy who filed this lawsuit, he could
really be setting a precedent here that the Democrats might not be happy
with in the end.
TUR: And then I guess how does Rudy Giuliani factor into this? Lisa, will
you expect to see House Democrats demand to hear from Rudy Giuliani? I know
he’s defied this or is trying to defy a subpoena. Is his voice necessary to
GRAVES: Well, I think it is, in part, because of the role that he’s been
playing roving around the world basically advancing these threats on behalf
of the president and also coordinating with the attorney general that
And so you have a situation which it’s not just the campaign or the
president’s personal lawyer in Giuliani, but also Attorney General Barr and
Pompeo as well who have been put in service of this agenda.
So I think there are a number of officials in the government as well as
people that Trump has assigned as his agents to pursue this quid pro quo
who need to appear before Congress and they failed to do so at their peril.
TUR: And Lisa, let me lean on your expertise for one more question. Will
the Mueller decision, the grand jury decision, holds up on appeal?
GRAVES: I think it will. Judge Howell is a very careful judge. It’s a very
well-reasoned opinion. It cites ample precedent. It’s, I think very solidly
grounded. We’ll see if these Trump judges actually follow the law or
whether they’re going to try to tilt the courts in his favor. But on the
merits, that decision should be upheld and upheld all the way up.
TUR: I know we’re kind of digging back when it comes to the Mueller
investigation and we’ve moved on to an entirely different controversy, but
digging back and thinking about what we were waiting to learn in the
Mueller investigation, what will you be looking out for in particular,
Evan, on what we might see in those grand jury documents?
MCMULLIN: Well, you know, as far as the Mueller investigation is
concerned, what I still really am waiting to see, which will not
necessarily come out in these grand jury additional pieces of information,
are the C.I. Elements of the investigation.
I believe there was still a lot left out of that report, including a lot
about Michael Cohen and his travels and contacts. And there are other
pieces of the investigation that for some reason were not in the final
So, I don’t know if through this additional now exposure of that
investigation in Congress if they’ll dig up more information on the C.I.
side of things. Certainly, obstruction will a part of it now that that
information is more – what comes from the grand jury is more directly
related to that.
But the important thing, I think, here is that, you know, the Mueller
investigation and the Russia issue set the stage for what we are now very
much focused on, which is the Ukraine scandal. I don’t think we would be as
concerned as a country about the Ukraine scandal, to be honest, if we
hadn’t gone through the Russia scandal first.
But because we have the Russia scandal and then the Ukraine scandal, it
sets – we see a pattern in the president’s abuse of power in his attacks
with foreign powers against our democracy. And so I think what’s
interesting about this is that, yes, Congress is focused on the Ukraine
But now we’re going to circle back and now the Russia scandal is going to
become, I think, part of this impeachment inquiry, again, obviously it will
be. But I think it’s going to become now more a part of the American sort
of consideration, the people’s consideration of whether the president
should be impeached again.
It’s just interesting how the Russia scandal set the stage for the Ukraine
scandal, and now the Ukraine scandal is in a way bringing the Russia
scandal back into consideration, back into the situation.
TUR: Yes, and I remember two years of the Russia investigation and the big
overarching theme was don’t ask a foreign government to interfere, to
meddle, to attack our elections.
The very next day Donald Trump has a phone call with President Zelensky of
Ukraine after the investigation is over, after Robert Mueller testifies,
the very next day he calls President Zelensky of Ukraine and says, do me a
favor, though, investigate the DNC server and Joe Biden. Natasha Bertrand,
Lisa Graves, Evan McMullin, thank you guys very much.
And coming up, Rudy Giuliani is not the most discreet person but butt-
dialing an investigative reporter twice in the last month, while your
supposed client the president, is the subject of an impeachment
investigation in a scheme in which you play a central role?
It’s pretty shocking. And what Giuliani said while a reporter was listening
is also shocking. Stay with us. That’s next.
TUR: This is just one of those headlines you don’t get to read often. Rudy
Giuliani butt-dials NBC reporter heard discussing need for cash and
trashing Bidens. NBC News investigative reporter Rich Shapiro goes on to
describe not one but two voice mails from Rudy Giuliani recorded when
Giuliani accidentally butt-dialed him.
In one voicemail from late September, Giuliani can be heard attacking the
Bidens with unfounded allegations before apparently turning to Donald
Trump’s call with the Ukrainian president. In another roughly two weeks
later, he can be heard discussing overseas business dealings and his need
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
RUDY GIULIANI, LAWYER FOR PRESIDENT TRUMP: You know, Charles would have a
hard time with a fraud case because he didn’t do any due diligence.
Tomorrow, I got to get you to get on Bahrain. You got to call
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE)
GIULIANI: You got to call Robert again tomorrow. Is Robert around?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Rob? He’s in Turkey.
GIULIANI: The problem is we need some money. We need a few hundred
(END AUDIO CLIP)
TUR: The voice mails are joining new scrutiny on Giuliani at a time when
he’s under federal criminal investigation and accused of running a shadow
foreign policy in Ukraine to dig up dirt on Trump’s political rival.
Giuliani is now reportedly on the hunt for a defense attorney as federal
prosecutors issue multiple subpoenas in the case against Giuliani’s
“Politico” reports that the criminal division of Attorney General Barr’s
Justice Department is bringing more resources to the SDNY’s investigation
into Giuliani indicating that the probe into the president’s personal
attorney is both broader and moving at a faster pace than previously
Joining us now is Frank Figliuzzi, a former FBI assistant director for
counterintelligence and an MSNBC national security analyst, and Danny
Cevallos, a criminal defense attorney and an MSNBC legal analyst. I want to
get into the SDNY aspect in a second.
Something that’s interesting that the DOJ is sending in more resources for
something like this, but just for stuff (ph), Rudy Giuliani and the call,
what stood out to you?
FRANK FIGLIUZZI, MSNBC NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Well first, many people
would say Rudy’s been talking out of that part of his anatomy for quite a
while, but the first thing that struck me was the national security
implications for the president’s attorney and unofficial global emissary
not understanding phone security.
How many other people around the world and in what countries have received
unsolicited voice mails from the president’s attorney? What country leader
or country general counsel or administrator has received such things?
But the other thing that struck me, Katy, is there has been consistent
reporting on Rudy’s third divorce, a very acrimonious divorce proceeding
where his wife is claiming in court filings that his pro bono work for the
president is part of a scheme to allow him to claim he’s broke and can’t
Yet on this recording, we hear him say the problem is we need more money or
we need some money. Is it possible he’s got some legal issue with regard to
hiding his income because of a divorce proceeding?
TUR: That’s interesting. There has been a question of whether Rudy
Giuliani is really working for free for the president or if somebody else
is paying him. This call talked about money. I’m not sure it revealed much
more than him talking about money and saying we need money. There was
another one where he talks about Joe Biden and why Giuliani believes he’s
being targeted. Let’s play that sound bite.
(BEGIN AUDI CLIP)
GIULIANI: I expected it would happen. The minute you touch on one of the
protected people, they go crazy. They come after you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You got the truth on your side, which –
GIULIANI: It’s very powerful.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The most powerful weapon, yes?
GIULIANI: There’s plenty more to come out. They don’t want to investigate
because he’s protected so we got to force them to do it. And the Ukraine,
they’re investigating him and they blocked it twice.
So what the president was (INAUDIBLE). You can’t – you can’t keep doing
this. You have to investigate this. And they say it will affect the 2020
(END AUDIO CLIP)
TUR: They say it will affect the 2020 election. We got to get them to
investigate it. What do you think, Danny?
DANNY CEVALLOS, MSNBC LEGAL ANALYST: It almost sounds like he’s justifying
all of his arguments over the past few weeks to himself. Like he’s looking
in the mirror and saying this is why we did this, right?
He is saying – it sounds to me as if he’s saying, and I don’t think this
is a stretch, that the protected people were the Bidens and all we were
doing was asking them to investigate people who were being protected
improperly and we were looking into corruption anyway.
It just sounds like a lot of self-justification. And what I think – what
stands out to me is really building on what Frank said, if he’s doing this
accidentally to reporters, who else is he doing this to?
CEVALLOS: And to what degree could he possibly be acting as an attorney in
one sense, as a diplomat in his own mind in another sense or as a private
business person? And if there’s an added element of whether his income,
he’s supposed to be receiving or not receiving it, what does it mean when
he says we need this money or who is –
There are so many x factors in here, but that last clip really tended to
show me that there’s a lot of justification going on, that maybe he doesn’t
even believe himself.
TUR: I want to know, do you think SDNY investigators are going to want
that phone call, those two phone calls?
FIGLIUZZI: I do because it could be viewed as a statement against self-
interest. It could be viewed as a kind of admission that I knew this would
affect the 2020 election and we’re asking for it anyway.
TUR: And then what about William Barr getting the DOJ to investigate
FIGLIUZZ: Oh, my. So it’s very disturbing, and at best it reflects the
fact that they believe they’re finding something criminal. But I have to
tell you, Katy, when you tell FBI agents and CIA officers and analysts that
they’re facing criminal exposure because of the work they did in
furtherance of the national security, guess what happens.
They get lawyers and they refuse to cooperate. And so we’re about to face a
spectacle where you’re going to see the White House and certain news
outlets claim, look at these people. They’ve lawyered up. They must have
done something wrong. So I have to wonder, is this a deliberate strategy to
make that happen.
TUR: Danny, I know you’re coming back so forgive me more asking Frank one
more question. Why do you think the DOJ would send SDNY more money on this?
FIGLIUZZI: On the Rudy Giuliani investigation?
TUR: Yes. More resources.
FIGLIUZZI: It’s getting complicated to the point where people are thinking
they’re going to claim executive privilege by extension. We’ve heard Rudy’s
associates throw around the idea that they were by proxy, working –
TUR: So what, another filter team like the Michael Cohen case?
FIGLIUZZI: Exactly, a tainting, a filter team that’s going to have to
figure out whether anyone can claim privilege here.
TUR: I don’t say the T word around here.
FIGLIUZZI: I understand.
TUR: Okay. Frank Figliuzzi, thank you very much. Danny Cevallos, you will
be coming back.
Coming up, Lindsey Graham announced this afternoon he now has 50 senate
Republicans co-sponsoring his resolution disproving of the House
impeachment investigation. Of course there are 53 Republicans in the
Senate. That’s next.
TUR: There are 53 Republicans in the United States Senate. That means to
pass something along party lines, Republicans can only lose the support of
three senators in order to maintain enough support for Vice President Mike
Pence to break a tie.
And today, Republicans appear to be right on that line when it comes to
defending the president. Yesterday, Senator Lindsey Graham introduced a
non-binding resolution that attacks the House impeachment inquiry on
The resolution was reportedly intended to placate the White House, which
reportedly believes Graham is not doing enough to defend the President. But
it may have had the opposite effect. Republican Senators Mitt Romney, Lisa
Murkowski and Susan Collins have all declined to sign on to the measure at
this time. And over the past 24 hours grandmas only been able to muster
enough Republican support to pass it with the thinnest possible majority.
Joining us now is former Florida Republican Congressman and current MSNBC
Political Analyst, David Jolly; Evan McMullin, is back with us as well.
David, you’re new, so I’m going to start with you. Rudy Giuliani - this is
- was meant to be a cover blanket, a warm soothing blanket for the
President. Don’t worry about the Republican in the Senate. He had to water
it down. It took him a while and he’s got three holdouts. What does that
say to you about Donald Trump’s firewall?
DAVID JOLLY, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: First of all, it’s a humiliating
moment for Lindsey Graham and all Republican Senators are going along with
this. That they would feel pressed to try to give the President the warm
blanket he needs.
It’s also against precedent. The House and the Senate don’t often opine on
the work of the other, and Lindsey Graham knows that. Lindsey Graham would
be the first one to be offended if the House passed a resolution opining on
the conduct of the Senate.
I think it gives some people cover to say, yes, we can criticize the
process. But then they ultimately may vote yes. I think there’s about six
senators right now that are in play should the House send over a clean
article of abuse of power, not tied to quid pro quo, simply tied to ask
that Biden be investigated.
TUR: Senator Portman, one of them?
JOLLY: He’s not. The ones I’m watching are Mitt Romney, of course; Richard
Burr, the Intelligence Chairman out of North Carolina; Lamar Alexander,
retiring out of Tennessee; Ben Sasse of Nebraska; Mike Lee out of Utah, the
two that suggest that they are the most loyal to the constitution than
anyone; Lisa Murkowski in Alaska.
Understand, each of these senators are going to have to vote on a clean
article. And what the Republican are doing right now is they’re trying to
muddy the waters and attack the process, so they give cover and permission
to Republican Senators to say it’s not working.
JOLLY: The fatal flaw in that though is, AmEriqan voters are smart enough
to see silly season when they see it. What Republicans should be doing
right now is arguing that the President’s conduct is an impeachable. That’s
an honest question for most AmEriqan people.
Some people are already decided I think he should be impeached. But a lot
of people would be having that debate at their kitchen table. The President
did wrong, should he be impeached? That’s a firmer footing for Republicans
to be in.
TUR: Well, what do you think about that Evan? You are a native of Utah.
Mike Lee is of Utah, do you think he’s somebody that could be on the fence?
EVAN MCMULLIN, FORMER CIA OPERATIVE: Well, his statement so far haven’t
been very encouraging on this, but that doesn’t mean that he can’t change.
And I think he should be on the list. I mean, I’ve got my own list of
senators which largely overlaps with David’s list.
I would also though add Senator McSally in Arizona and also Senator Gardner
in Colorado, both of them are facing very, very steep uphill battles and in
their re-election bids this cycle. And I think it’s so difficult that it’s
all - it’s maybe unlikely that they’ll be reelected at this point as I see
And so I think those two will have to make a decision about what they want
their legacy to be like. They’re probably going to think about what they
think the Republican Party is going to be like in a post-Trump environment,
post Trump presidency. But I think they should be added to the list too.
I’m not loving what I’m seeing from Senator Lee so far, but I do think he
should be on the list. He does talk quite a bit about the importance of the
constitution. I hope he understands the threat that the President poses.
He’s been at times understanding of that in the last several years, but not
entirely consistent, so we’ll see.
TUR: Yes. I remember Mike Lee after the “Access Hollywood” tape dropped. He
was appalled by it and he said he could never support the President and
he’s done a 180 since then and has been pretty supportive of the President.
So my question is, I just wonder if there is anything that would make
Republicans stop supporting him, because of the way his support is so
hardened - Donald Trump’s support is so hardened among his particular set
But, again, senators are not beholden to congressional districts. They’re
not gerrymandered up. They have a whole state to convince. Does that mean
there’s more leeway there?
JOLLY: There should be. Politicians either act on conviction or on
enlightened self-interest. The enlightened self-interest of Mike Lee’s been
acting upon is the fact that Trump GOP loyalty plays well right now.
If he were to act on conviction, Mike Lee of all senators would acknowledge
what the President did abused the office of the presidency, the power of
the presidency, and is worthy of impeachment.
To Evan’s point on McSally and Gardner and I’d throw Susan Collins in
there, all of whom are in cycle. They have a choice whether to follow
public opinion in their state or follow the money.
They all need - they each need money from the National Republican
Senatorial Committee for their re-election. They need Mitch McConnell’s
blessing to turn ton money for those three states for their re-elections.
I’m pessimistic about their encourage and conviction. I think they’ll
follow the money.
TUR: David Jolly, good to see you. Congratulations on the baby.
JOLLY: You too.
TUR: And Evan McMullin, always good to see you as well.
Coming up, all the President’s legal woes. As the impeachment investigation
heats up, Donald Trump has been ordered to be deposed in an unrelated civil
lawsuit in the next six weeks. That could be interesting. Stay with us.
TUR: Now that the President’s legal woes that are not the impeachment
investigation or the ongoing lawsuit over his tax returns. Donald Trump is
facing a court ordered deadline of December 6th to be deposed in the
ongoing Summer Zervos lawsuit.
Former “Apprentice” contestant, Summer Zervos, is more than a dozen who
came forward during the 2016 presidential election with allegations of
sexual assault against Donald Trump. Here is how Summer Zervos described
the alleged sexual assault that occurred in a hotel room in 2007.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SUMMER ZERVOS, FILED DEFAMATION LAW SUIT AGAINST DONALD TRUMP: I stood up
and he came to me and started kissing me open-mouthed as he was pulling me
towards him. He put me in an embrace and I tried to push him away. I pushed
his chest, put space between us. And I said “come on man, get real.” He
repeated my words back to me, “Get real,” as he began thrusting his
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TUR: Zervos is suing Donald Trump for defamation after the President called
her a liar and insisted the sexual assault allegations were untrue.
President Trump’s lawyers have spent months trying to block Zervos’ suit,
arguing that the President is immune from civil suits in state courts.
But yesterday the judge in this case ordered that President Trump must
provide the court with four potential dates for his deposition, although
his legal team is expected to appeal. When we come back Eriq Gardner and
Danny Cevallos will tell us the latest developments in the Summer Zervos
case, including the possible scope of the deposition. And the new documents
revealed in court that appear corroborate her case. That’s next.
TUR: President Trump’s legal woes continued this week in a civil lawsuit in
New York when he was ordered by the court to be deposed by December 6th.
Former “Apprentice” contestant Summer Zervos is suing Donald Trump for
defamation after he called her a liar for making sexual assault allegations
against him. New documents revealed in court this week support Zervos’
sexual assault allegations.
Joining us now is Eriq Gardener, Senior Editor for “The Hollywood Reporter”
who has extensively covered the Summer Zervos lawsuit. Danny Cevallos is
also back with us.
Danny, I want to look at these court documents. They were filed yesterday
and they’re about conversation she had with her family, their e-mails,
including one to Rhona Graff who’s the President’s press - or one of this
secretaries before he became President of United States. What does that
need to say in order to help Zervos win this case?
DANNY CEVALLOS, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I’ve read the exhibits. I’ve
looked at them. And there are a couple e-mails and excerpts from Donald
Trump’s personal calendar. And what she’s trying to do is match up her
allegations and show that, hey these, documents President Trump’s calendar
matches up. He was exactly where we say he was exactly at the time we say
he was there.
Now their complaint against Trump is that he has these documents and they
just marked them confidential and they are saying that they can’t reveal
those publicly as a result that by unilaterally saying hey these are
The plaintiff is saying not so fast, it’s the court that decides what is
confidential and what is not. You don’t get to, on your own, just stamp
everything confidential and it never gets to see the light of day, that’s
not how this works.
TUR: Eriq she’s suing for defamation. She doesn’t like that the President
called her a liar, because she says this happened. If she wins in court
what does she want to happen next?
ERIQ GARDNER, THE HOLLYWOOD REPORTER SENIOR EDITOR: Well, I think she wants
to make a point that she’s telling the truth. Remember, this is a
defamation suit. She doesn’t have to prove that the sexual assault
occurred. She just has to prove that Donald Trump was untruthful.
And in here, Download Trump said she never interacted with him at the
hotel. Donald Trump doesn’t try to portray this as a consensual affair. He
says, no, we didn’t meet in the hotel. Well here she comes along and she
has proof that he was at this particular spot back in 2007.
Not only that, but she can also show that she complained about it going as
far back as 2011, seeking out a lawyer. This was well before the Access
Hollywood stuff. So the Donald Trump in the next few weeks is going to be
in deposition being asked about his statements, being asked whether he
sticks to the story that he never met her in the hotel.
TUR: Eriq what about all the other woman that he’s called liars for coming
out and saying that they - that he did something inappropriate to them?
CEVALLOS: Oh, yes, absolutely, that’s going to come up in court. And I
think that’s probably the biggest aspect of legal jeopardy for Donald Trump
right now. The Stormy Daniels stuff has faded into the background. But as
far as I know the New York Southern District is still pursuing a criminal
investigation into the Trump Organization and payments.
So as this investigation plays out, Donald Trump is for the first time in
his presidency going to be talking under oath about what happened in the
Stormy Daniels affair and all these other affairs. Because Summer Zervos’
attorneys are going to want to get him on the record about his affairs and
his accuracy and his is honesty and try to push him on all those subject.
TUR: And as Danny Cevallos pointed out during the break, any discovery of
the President will have implications for any other case that may be out
there. I’m sorry I have to cut it short, gentlemen, squeeze some breaking
news. Eriq Gardner and Danny Cevallos thank you very much.
Breaking news from “The New York Times” on the impeachment inquiry into
President Trump. “The Times” reports “A key witness” in the impeachment
investigation filed a lawsuit Friday, asking a federal judge to rule on
whether he can testify. A move that raises new doubts about whether
President Trump’s closest aides, like the former national security adviser
John Bolton will be able to cooperate with the inquiry.
The key witness according to “The Times” it is Charles Kupperman who served
as Donald Trump’s deputy national security adviser. House Democrats had
subpoenaed Charles Kupperman to testify before the appeasement committees
But in an effort to stop Kupperman from doing so, the White House said on
Friday that the President had invoked constitutional immunity, leaving
Kupperman uncertain about what to do.
“Plaintiff obviously cannot satisfy the competing demands of both the
legislative and executive branches and he is aware of no controlling
judicial authority definitely establishing which branches’ command should
prevail,” the suit said.
Joining us now by phone is a reporter who broke that story, Michael
Schmidt, Washington correspondent for “The New York Times.” Michael explain
exactly what this is?
MICHAEL SCHMIDT, THE NEW YORK TIMES WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT (via
telephone): Well, this is a late Friday filing. It’s a lawsuit that Chuck
Cooper the lawyer for Kupperman, and the lawyer for John Bolton has filed
in federal court. And it’s significant because Democrats have really wanted
to hear from Kupperman and Bolton.
Kupperman was the acting national security adviser at the time that Trump
released the aid to the Ukrainians in September. And obviously, John Bolton
was the national security adviser during much of the some when these
discussions were going on.
But here is the lawyer Cooper going into federal court in saying hey the
White House has told us that we cannot talk to the Hill. The Hill has
subpoenaed us and federal judge you need to figure out whether we can
testify, and that’s why this lawsuit was filed.
And it’s interesting, because Democrats had really been counting on this
testimony and now it will be heading into the courts. Lots of speculation
in the past few days about what Bolton may say. And certainly Kupperman
being as close as he was to Bolton would be significant witness as well.
TUR: And what is constitutional immunity?
SCHMIDT (via telephone): Well it was described to me as essentially
executive privilege on steroids, sort of, the executive branch the
President through the White House counsel invoking his most significant
powers to try and stop someone from testifying to Congress.
The President did this with his White House stopped in from testifying
after the Mueller report was released and the President using it here. The
President cannot use it with cabinet members, but he can use it with his
closest aides. And his national security advisors, certainly the national
security adviser, being one of them and him trying to use that to stop that
TUR: Is this intended to potentially stop Bolton from testifying beyond
stopping Kupperman from testifying?
SCHMIDT (via telephone): I have no evidence to believe that this suit was
filed as any part of trying to stop this. I think this was a situation
where a witness and a lawyer were presented with the white House saying,
the Hill saying, the Hill saying give us your testimony and them saying I
will go to federal court and ask a judge to make that decision.
TUR: Democrats are portraying this as a legal theory as extreme and an act
of obstruction by the Trump White House you say. How quickly do you think
that this is going to get ruled on?
SCHMIDT (via telephone): I’m not sure. When things are before an
impeachment proceeding they would tend to get more urgency within the
courts, but at the same time this could be something that would play out
over a long period of time.
Ultimately, look, Kupperman was supposed to go in next week. That will not
happen anymore because of this and the Democrats had certainly had some
momentum over the past few weeks, really building against the President
with sort of daily interviews of witnesses coming in and leaks about their
testimony. From Kupperman, someone who was close to the President, they
will not have that now.
TUR: And what does this mean for other witnesses that are a part of the
administration are they going to use this as a reason not to come forward
will it scare them off?
SCHMIDT (via telephone): Well - I mean, look, the only thing I can say is
that this has - you have to look at this in what it means for Bolton.
Bolton is represented by the same lawyer, this this lawyer Chuck Cooper,
who has gone to court and who has done this.
And the White House would likely invoke these same privileges against
Bolton to try and stop him from testifying. And Bolton in in many ways is
seen as a key witness here, because he is someone who is a long-standing
He’s someone that Republicans and conservatives have seen on Fox News for
many years. It’s certainly someone that is different than the longtime
career diplomats who have testified in recent days have been attacked by
the White House.
TUR: Michael Schmidt - Michael thank you very much for coming on and giving
us your great reporting. We appreciate it.
And in Baltimore today two Presidents and political powerhouses came out to
honor Congressman Elijah Cummings, his life and his fight.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, 44TH U.S. PRESIDENT: There is nothing weak about kindness and
compassion. There’s nothing - there’s nothing weak about being honorable.
You’re not a sucker to have integrity and to treat others with respect.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TUR: And here is more of President Obama’s eulogy for the Honorable Elijah
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: As President I knew I could always count on Elijah being honorable
and doing the right thing, and people have talked about his voice. There is
something about his voice. It just made you feel better. You know there’s
some people they you have that deep baritone, deep baritone, a prophetic
voice. And when it was good times, and we achieved victories together, that
voice and that laugh was a gift.
But you needed it more during the tough times when the path ahead looked
crooked, when obstacles abounded. When I entertained doubts or I saw those
who were in the fight start to waiver, that’s when Elijah’s voice mattered
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TUR: Joining us now Congressman Lacy Clay from Missouri. He is a member of
the House Oversight Committee which was chaired by the late Congressman
Elijah Cummings. Congressman, thank you very much for being here.
I had a couple of longer interactions with Elijah Cummings on Oversight. I
did a documentary about the American Swamp and the separation of powers and
what was happening with Donald Trump and his conflicts of interest, and
Jacob Soboroff and I sat down with him twice and he got extremely
And he talked about his time being short and his desire to make a
difference while he could. He talked about the separation of powers and the
need for congressional oversight, especially right now. What was it like to
work with him in these final months?
REP. LACY CLAY (D-MO): Well, let me first say today was a fitting, moving
tribute to someone who was the Chairman of our Committee, who I got to know
over the 18 years, and he embodied the decency of our humanity. He was
compassionate and he was respectful to others.
And he also embodied the fact that you can disagree with someone without
being disagreeable and you can be respectful of your adversary and you can
also have that debate and then also be friends with somebody who has an
opposing view. So he was somebody that I truly respected. I learned from.
We got to know each other over the years through phone calls, through
hanging out in the members’ gymnasium, and just about every vote series
that we took on that floor, we took time just to catch up with each other,
to talk about our families, to talk about our common experiences, to talk
about our parents. And he embodied the decency of who we should all aspire
TUR: there was that memorable moment in one of the committee hearings where
Congressman Mark Meadows was accused of racism and Cummings spoke very
vocally against that and said they had been friends and he defended Mark
So when you say he could be friends with people he disagreed with, there
was very good example of that. Tell me, how did he - how heavy was the job
of Chairman for him - Chairman of the Oversight Committee in these times.
He was signing subpoenas on his death bed.
CLAY: Yes. Well, and he put everything that he had into deposition of being
the Chair of the Oversight Committee, and you could tell it was a true
labor of love for him. He understood the law. He shared his knowledge with
us, the other committee members, and the constitution meant something to
He felt like no one was above the law, and that’s why when you are the
Chair of the Oversight Committee and you get a letter from the Chairperson,
that’s usually not a good day for you.
TUR: what will the committee be doing to honor his legacy?
CLAY: We will continue in the tradition of Elijah Cummings, of pursuing the
facts and follow them where they lead us, and usually it leads you to the
truth. And just like this impeachment inquiry, we will, along with the
Foreign Affairs Committee and the House Intelligence Committee, we will be
gathering the facts.
And then, once we compile that information, we will turn it over to the
House Judiciary Committee for them to make a decision about articles of
impeachment and to determine if this President and this administration have
followed the letter - the law, or if they have broken the law.
And so we will continue in the tradition of Elijah Cummings.
Copyright 2019 ASC Services II Media, LLC. All materials herein are protected by United States copyright law and may not be reproduced, distributed, transmitted, displayed, published or broadcast without the prior written permission of ASC Services II Media, LLC. You may not alter or remove any trademark, copyright or other notice from copies of the content.>
Copyright 2019 ASC Services II Media, LLC. All materials herein are
protected by United States copyright law and may not be reproduced,
distributed, transmitted, displayed, published or broadcast without the
prior written permission of ASC Services II Media, LLC. You may not alter
or remove any trademark, copyright or other notice from copies of the