Trump-GOP divide TRANSCRIPT: 10/18/2019, The Last word with Lawrence O’Donnell

Peter Wehner, Gary Peters, Tony Schwartz, Michael Moore, Nicholas Kristof


Date: October 18, 2019





RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC HOST:  That`s going to do it for us tonight, but

presumably I`ll be up all night looking at breaking news because it`s a

Friday. I`ll see you again on Monday. Now, it`s time for “The Last Word”

with Katy Tur, filling in for Lawrence tonight. Good evening, my friend.



holding on to you for another 10 seconds to say a belated congratulations

on the book.


MADDOW:  Oh, thank you so much! That`s so nice of you to say. It`s been a

really, really surprising thing, this book.


TUR:  Really? Is that surprising?


MADDOW:  Well –


TUR:  Everything you do, you knock out of the park, Rachel.


MADDOW:  That`s very nice of you to say. You know what? I wrote a book

about the oil and gas industry, totally cognizant of the fact that it was

going to be completely off the news. It was going to be a niche interest,

like I didn`t expect that it was going to be about the cast of characters

that have now led to the impeachment.


TUR:  People are hungry to learn. They`re hungry for more knowledge.

They`re hungry for something outside of the regular news cycle as well, so


MADDOW:  You are very –


TUR:  – congratulations.


MADDOW:  Thanks, Katy.


TUR:  Enjoy your weekend.


MADDOW:  You, too.


TUR:  I`m Katy Tur, in for Lawrence O`Donnell. It is a Friday night of big

guests here on “The Last Word.” Oscar-winning filmmaker and activist

Michael Moore, we`ll talk about the path forward on impeachment and his big

2020 announcement.


And “Any capacity Trump ever had to think clearly or calmly has

evaporated.” Those are the words of Tony Schwartz, Trump`s “Art of the

Deal” co-author, who will join us with his view of what he calls the

president`s inability to change.


And at the end of the hour, Pulitzer Prize-winning columnist Nicholas

Kristof on the sharp criticism for the president`s Syria policies, Turkey

gets everything it wants while the U.S. gets what is exactly? That`s all



But first, tonight, we begin with a possible crisis for Trump and the GOP.

The growing divide between President Trump and Republicans this week

threatens their delicate alliance at a time when Donald Trump needs

republican support more than ever.


Support for impeachment continues to tick upward. Fifty-two percent of

Americans now support removing Trump from office through impeachment,

according to a new Gallup poll. That is the highest level of support yet

since the Ukraine scandal broke.


In fact, backing for Trump`s impeachment has far surpassed the public

support for the impeachment of President Bill Clinton. And now it`s edging

into territory not seen since the 1970s when President Richard Nixon

stepped down after support for his impeachment spiked at 58 percent.


So you would think that the president would do everything in his power to

keep Republicans, arguably his last line of defense, in check. But time and

again this week, the Trump administration has pushed the GOP to the brink,

and it`s not clear how much more some in his party can take.


Acting Chief of Staff Mick Mulvaney said Trump had chosen his own Florida

golf resort to host next year`s G-7 meeting. “That decision is without

precedent in modern American history. The president used his public office

to direct a huge contract to himself,” The Washington Post says.


Mulvaney also admitted that the Trump administration withheld foreign aid

to Ukraine because, among other things, it wanted the country to

investigate the conspiracy theory that somehow Russia was not involved in

the hacking of the DNC server in 2016.


Then Trump celebrated a ceasefire in Northern Syria between Turkey and the

Kurds, which gave Turkey everything it wanted.


NBC News` political unit put the mess like this. Trump replaces `America

First` with `Me First,` writing, “Ask yourself: Who gains from the G-7

being held at Trump`s golf resort? Who gains from withholding foreign aid

from a country unless it agrees to an investigation into the 2016 election?

And who gains from the military incursion into Northern Syria? It`s not



It seems some Republicans are asking these same questions.




SEN. LISA MURKOWSKI (R-AK):  You don`t hold up foreign aid that we had

previously appropriated for a political initiative. Period.


REP. FRANCIS ROONEY (R-FL):  Senator Murkowski admits, said it perfectly.

We`re not supposed to use government power and prestige for political gain.


JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR:  Massive – you could call it taxpayer-funded

contract that the president is awarding it to his own property. Is that

acceptable for a sitting president?


REP. ADAM KINZINGER (R-IL):  No, I`m not happy with it. I don`t know if

it`s a direct violation, but it`s – I don`t understand why at this moment

they had to do that.


SEN. MITT ROMNEY (R-UT):  What we have done to the Kurds will stand as a

bloodstain in the annals of American history.


REP. DAN CRENSHAW (R-TX):  When America leaves, we create a vacuum. When we

create a vacuum, we create chaos. That`s what we`re seeing right now.




TUR:  Trump might have some loyal republicans in Congress, but every

politician has a breaking point. This evening, The Washington Post

published a scathing op-ed from Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell,

where he slammed the Trump administration`s decision to withdraw from

Syria, calling it a strategic nightmare.


If there are already these many cracks forming in republican support for

Trump, can we now ask how much longer the entire dam breaks, until the

entire dam breaks?


Leading off our discussion tonight are Peter Wehner, senior fellow at the

Ethics and Public Policy Center. He was an advisor to the past three

Republican presidents. And Ruth Marcus, a deputy editorial page editor and

columnist at The Washington Post. She is also an MSNBC contributor.


Both of you, welcome. A little bit earlier, Ruth, this week, I asked if

this was the perfect storm for Donald Trump, the Syria debacle and what`s

happening on impeachment. That was before the G-7 came into play. Do you

see this confluence of controversies as something that might break the

president`s dam, his wall in Congress?



FOR THE WASHINGTON POST:  I want to say yes, but I think for right now the

answer is no. Republican lawmakers are going to stick with Trump. Your crew

had the “me first” approach to Trump that Trump has.


Republican senators and members of Congress also have a “me first”

approach, and they worry about breaking with Trump and what that is going

to do for them with their base in a primary.


Until Republican voters, Republican primary voters turn against Trump, it

is going to be very, very dangerous no matter what they privately think, no

matter how much they might privately grouse about Trump in Syria or Trump

giving himself a big contract or Trump in Ukraine, no matter how much they

complain about that in private, they`re not going to break with him in

public until it becomes politically safe for them to do that.


TUR:  I wonder what sort of precedent they`re sending, Peter, about what

they will accept going forward. Mitch McConnell in The Washington Post had

a scathing op-ed against the president`s decision to withdraw from Syria.

He called it a grave strategic mistake. “It will leave the American people

in homeland less safe, embolden our enemies, and weaken important



Peter, I guess – where do they go from here?



think they`re going to stick with him on matters of impeachment. They have

developed a spine in terms of being willing to criticize Trump on policies

like on Syria.


There you`ve seen really Republicans en masse criticizing him for the first

time in his presidency, but that`s still different than the issue of



TUR:  What is the difference there between them being willing to criticize

him on policy and unwilling to criticize him on asking a foreign government

to interfere in our elections?


WEHNER:  Well, I think it`s a good question, and I don`t think they should

make that distinction. But I think in their mind, the Syria issue just does

not fall into the tribalistic identity politics that we`re in. That is the

base, does not feel the same passion on the Syria issue that they do on

impeachment issue.


And so Republicans like McConnell and others feel like that they got some

latitude to criticize Trump now. That`s still very different than when the

issue of impeachment comes in. Look, this is still Donald Trump`s party. He

has a remarkable hold on the base of the party.


One of the truest things that he said in the 2016 campaign is that he could

go down 5th Avenue and shoot somebody, and he may not lose support. People

thought that was hyperbole at the time. I am afraid it was closer to the

truth than we would like to think.


But it is pretty remarkable, what he is doing. He is pushing and he is

pushing and he is pushing, but the Republicans made this unholy alliance at

the beginning, and they – and I think they just decided that this is the

horse they get to ride until the end. They will regret it.


TUR:  It seems like what they`re saying is a president can do anything he

or she wants, no consequences, as long as you are in that party of the

president. Here is John Kasich on CNN. John Kasich, obviously, not a fan of

the president, ran against him in 2016, still chatter about him potentially

running in 2020. He now supports impeachment. Let`s listen.




JOHN KASICH, FORMER OHIO GOVERNOR:  If you`re asking me if I was sitting in

the House of Representatives today, and you were to ask he how do I feel,

do I think impeachment should move forward and should go for a full

examination and a trial in the United States Senate, my vote would be yes.

I don`t see it lightly. This is extremely difficult for me, but it`s what I

feel I have to do.




TUR:  Support for impeachment is taking up, as we just said, Ruth, 52

percent of the American public. What sort of number needs to be seen for

Republicans to have cover to break from the president?


MARCUS:  That number has to be much closer to that 52 percent among

Republican voters. He still has very high support among Republican voters.

I just want to make clear. I am not saying that these Republican members

are profiles in courage, anything but, or that their decision to stick with

the president is right.


But I think it`s very significant that Governor Kasich, who was a member of

the House, says he would support impeachment if he were still a member of

the House. But none of his former colleagues in that body have come out and

said the same thing, not a single one of them.


TUR:  Not a single one of them. But I guess – I wonder if this goes to the

public and there`s this – it is in the (ph) public, this steady drip of

information. One by one administration officials defying administration

orders and sitting in front of Congress and telling Congress what they know

on the Ukraine issue. It is moving fast. We`re on day 25 of the impeachment

inquiry and these numbers are going up.


Peter, I just wonder if we are all underestimating – or it is being

underestimated – the ability of this impeachment inquiry to expose real



WEHNER:  Yeah. Here`s what I would say. The current situation, you`re not

going to get two-thirds in the Senate to impeach him. But politics isn`t

static as like life isn`t static. And I will tell you the Republicans are

more rattled now than they ever have been during the Trump presidency.


It`s not simply what is unfolding, it`s they don`t know which will unfold,

which I think is going to be much worse because you haver Rudy Giuliani

basically given free rein to do what he wanted to. So we don`t know how

many hand grenades are yet to explode and that could change the dynamic.


The other thing I would say is, look, I like John Kasich. I think the

person to watch here is Mitt Romney. Mitt Romney is a lawmaker. He`s a

senator. He is a former nominee in 2012. He`s really becoming the moral

conscience of the Republican Party, I think. He`s spoken out against Trump

in several times now on several issues. I think he is an important figure

to watch. He may give cover to other Republican senators.


Last thing I`ll say is none of this is new. If you`ve been talking to

Republicans as I have throughout the Trump presidency, they have known

really from the start, almost from the start, I would say, that this is a

person who is really problematic and psychologically unwell.


I think at the beginning, it was wishful thinking, we can contain and

control him, maybe he`ll grow into office, maybe McConnell and Ryan will be

able to do the job. That was, I think, such an obviously flawed judgment to



TUR:  Yeah.


WEHNER:  What happened now is that Trump`s pathologies are getting worse

and the guardrails around him are disappearing. And so what we`re seeing

now is the worst of Trump up to now but it`s going to get worse going

forward. So this is an open question, what will happen.


TUR:  If you thought Donald Trump was going to pivot, you were not watching

the 2016 election.


WEHNER:  Exactly. That`s right.


TUR:  Peter Wehner, thank you. Ruth Marcus, thank you very much. Joining us

now is Democratic Senator Gary Peters of Michigan. He is the ranking member

on the Homeland Security Committee and he is the lead sponsor of the Hotel

Act legislation which aims to prevent taxpayer money from going to Trump



Mr. Peters, thank you very much for joining us.


SEN. GARY PETERS (D-MI):  Great to be with you.


TUR:  Tell us a little bit about this legislation. It doesn`t sound like it

has any hope of passing in this current iteration of Congress.


PETERS:  Well, we have 37 co-sponsors. They`re all Democrats. But I think

it`s important for us to continue to push this forward. The conflict of

interest that you get when you have government money going to properties

owned by high government officials is very clear.


The legislation says that federal money cannot be spent at a property owned

by high government official defined as president, vice president, or

cabinet official.


We have seen numerous occasions where serious questions have been raised.

As you`re well aware, we have a situation still unfolding with the Air

Force sending crews –


TUR:  Yeah.


PETERS:  – to Trump properties in Scotland. But now you have incredibly

outrageous situation where the president himself now directs money, not

only federal taxpayer money – and taxpayers don`t want to see their money

lining the pockets of the president, certainly folks in Michigan don`t want

to see that happen – but also directing foreign governments to spend money

in a property that ultimately President Trump will get the benefit of.

That`s outrageous.


TUR:  Michigan is such an important state to the president. It helped him

win the presidency in 2016. He won by a very narrow margin.


PETERS:  Right.


TUR:  Are you seeing people that voted for him? Are you speaking to the

people who voted for him in 2016, who have watched his presidency unfold,

who say there`s no way in heck I`m going to vote for him again in 2020?


PETERS:  Well, I`m seeing more of that, especially the last couple weeks.

You`re definitely starting to see that change. I`ll say the actions in

Northern Syria were particularly profound with folks that I talked to.


People said here we are, a friend of the United States, people who shed

blood in fighting ISIS to keep us safe, and then for us to turn our backs

on them, that just doesn`t fit with their American values, that we are

friends that you can trust.


When they see the president act that way, people are having a harder time

justifying that.


TUR:  What are they saying about this Trump Doral situation? The president

is lining his own pockets directly with foreign money that seems to be a

violation of the emoluments clause.


What is more, the president promised in a press conference when he was

elected in 2017, his tax attorney came up and said the president is not

going to benefit at all from any of his properties. There`s going to be a

wall between the two.


And as time has gone by, that wall has gotten smaller and smaller. It seems

not to exist at all.


PETERS:  No, there is no wall there. It`s in a trust, but he can pull

income out of that trust any time he likes. Certainly the value of the

property increases. He is someone who understands the public relations

value. He can promote his brand through this. He will profit from this, so

there`s no question about that.


TUR:  And he is the one who suggested Trump Doral.


PETERS:  Yes. In fact, that`s why we`re asking more questions in my role as

ranking member of Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs. We`re the top

oversight committee. We want to find out exactly what process it went

through. It sounds as if the president just mentioned it to his staff and

they ran with it.


In order to spend taxpayer money, we want to make sure that there`s a

competitive process, that the property met the security requirements

necessary, that it truly was the best value for the taxpayers. None of that

is apparent right now. It doesn`t look as if that occurred at all. We need

to get to the bottom of that as well.


TUR:  Senator Gary Peters, thank you very much. We appreciate your time.


PETERS:  Thank you.


TUR:  And coming up, Tony Schwartz, who got to observe Donald Trump up

close when he co-wrote “The Art of the Deal,” has a new column out in which

he likens Donald Trump to a drowning man in what he sees happening in this

wild week of the Trump presidency.


Also this photo which, remember, Donald Trump originally shared because he

thought it made him look good. Tony Schwartz joins us, next.







I`m going to so presidential, that you people will be so bored. And I`ll

come back as a presidential person. Instead of 10,000 people, I`ll have

about 150 people. And they`ll say, but, boy, he really looks presidential.




TUR:  That was then candidate Donald Trump three and a half years ago. When

Trump was elected, somehow that hope that he would grow in office, but it`s

hard to make the case he`s changed all that much.


One of the men who knew him best, Tony Schwartz, Trump`s co-author of “Art

of the Deal,” has a new piece in The Washington Post, arguing that Trump

cannot change no matter what the consequences are, and impeachment might

have made him worse.


Schwartz writes, “The negative qualities we ascribed to others are often

those we find it most intolerable to see in ourselves. Throughout his adult

life, Trump has viewed the world as a dark, dangerous place teeming with

enemies out to get him. In the face of potential impeachment, this fear has

escalated exponentially.”


“The threat he imagines is no longer just to his fragile sense of self but,

realistically, to his future as president. Any capacity Trump ever had to

think clearly or calmly has evaporated. Now, like a drowning man, all that

matters to him is survival, no matter how much collateral damage his

behaviors cause”


And joining us now here on set is Tony Schwartz. Tony, it`s really good to





TUR:  So Donald Trump today, 2019, is it the same man that you knew all

those years ago?


SCHWARTZ:  In the fundamental ways, yes. But I would say when you said he

hasn`t changed much, he actually has changed and he has gotten worse. I

mean, considerably worse.


He was a non-ideological guy when I knew him. He was just – he was purely

out for himself and not thinking about the wider world that much. And he

was riding high. In the 1980s, you know, just before it all fell apart. So

he wasn`t under stress. And we are two different people. We`re the person

we are when we`re being run by our prefrontal cortex. And then under

stress, we`re run by a much more primitive part of our brain.


TUR:  Back then, I guess you could say that he had money to lose, but then

there was always money to fall back on. Now, he has the presidency, a place

that maybe he thought deep down he might get to, but that nobody expected

him to. He has got a lot to lose now. How is that affecting the judgment

that you once knew so well?


SCHWARTZ:  It`s physiological first. That is really important to know that

when you are under stress, you move into this fight or flight state. And

basically, your prefrontal cortex or your thinking mind shuts down, and you

become reactive and impulsive. You`re about your survival. So you don`t

think well.


Trump starts off, as you know, not thinking well. He`s not reflective. He`s

not introspective. He doesn`t spend time thinking things trough. He doesn`t

read. So, now, you have a situation in which this is vastly more intense

for him, and I think he is in pure reactive mode.


TUR:  What happens – I mean, say impeachment passes and maybe he gets

impeached and he doesn`t get thrown out – the Senate doesn`t vote to

remove him from office. But he goes along in the last year of his

presidency and the polls look terrible for him in the lead-up to 2020 much

in the way they did in the lead-up to 2016. What sort of behavior should we

expect then?


SCHWARTZ:  I think this is a man who has been – you know, grew up in an

incredibly wealthy family, but felt put upon since he was a young kid. He

has never felt more put upon than he does right now. He really does

genuinely believe he is a victim. And whichever way this goes, even if he

is, you know, ultimately not found, you know, not convicted, he will be one

angry man all the way through to November.


TUR:  Let me ask you about the letter he sent to President Erdogan. He

said, “History will look upon you favorably if you get this done right and

humane way. It will look upon you forever as the devil if good things don`t

happen. Don`t be a tough guy. Don`t be a fool. I will call you later.”

Explain that to me.


SCHWARTZ:  Yeah. Well, it`s not very complex. Those are very simple

sentences. He`s a binary thinker. He`s a black and white guy.


TUR:  Yeah.


SCHWARTZ:  It`s either this or it`s that. It`s either good or it is evil.

And he projects on other people, as you read from my piece earlier –


TUR:  I`m rubber and you`re glue president.


SCHWARTZ:  Well, he literally describes himself – what is now already that

famous quote about Pelosi being the person who is melting down. That was an

exact description of him. And that is so frequently the case. Just follow

his tweets and you know what`s really going on inside him.


TUR:  Or the Hillary Clinton, you`re a puppet. And he says no puppet, no

puppet during the debates in 2016. Tony Schwartz, it is always good to see

you. Thanks for coming in.


And coming up, Michael Moore is here. He will give us his assessment of the

1,001 days of the Trump presidency and how he views Donald Trump`s chances

for political survival as the impeachment investigation heats up and we

head into the 2020 presidential election year.




TUR:  After another week of witness testimony, the impeachment

investigation is closing in on its central figure, Donald Trump. As The

Washington Post notes, “A clear portrait has emerged of a president

personally orchestrating the effort to pressure a foreign government to dig

up dirt on a potential 2020 political rival, and marshalling the full

resources of the federal bureaucracy to help in that endeavor.”


“Not only are a growing number of officials and longtime employees choosing

to come forward with damaging evidence, the narrative they are laying out

points to potential violations of law that bolster the case for



On Wednesday, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi has said Democrats left a meeting

with Donald Trump after he had a “meltdown.” Here is how Lawrence described





LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, MSNBC HOST:  It tells the story of the Trump presidency

better than any other photograph. Nancy Pelosi immediately placed that

photograph on her Twitter page and she will never replace it with a better



It is the perfect portrait of the child president. The Trump face is full

of the confusion and fear of a 4-year-old boy being rebuked by an adult in

the room full of adults, who know he shouldn`t be there.


Fifty years from now, school children studying American history will come

upon this photograph, and they will instantly know who was in charge in

that room, the adult standing and pointing at the pained face across the





TUR: Joining us now is someone else who likes to look at that photo,

Michael Moore, Academy Award-winning documentary filmmaker. Michael, it`s

really great to see you. Why do you like that photo so much?


MICHAEL MOORE, DOCUMENTARY FILMMAKER: I`ll tell you, the last couple days

I`ve been looking at it every hour or so just to feel better.


TUR: Why?


MOORE: Well first of all, the last three years have been filled with I

think a lot of despair that many of us feel. To look at that picture of

Nancy Pelosi, I don`t know, do you have it up or you can show it–


TUR: We`re going to put it back up.


MOORE: This is Donald Trump`s worst nightmare that this woman standing

there telling him what the truth is and not taking any of his BS. It`s so

powerful. I don`t know if there are any other women in that room, I can`t



TUR: There`s one in the back.


MOORE: There`s one in the back, of course. Well there she is letting him

have it, and the look on his face, he saw - I don`t - he`s not used to

women talking to him this way. And the men to his right, all as I think

Lawrence pointed out are hanging their heads in shame, knowing she`s right,

knowing he`s wrong, and it`s such a - if you`re the parent of daughters,

show them this photo, because this is the future, Katy. Katie t


This is the way it`s going to have to be when those men on the other side

of the table, who`ve been running the world, let`s just say my gender has

been in charge for the last 10,000 years, that`s now coming to a close, and

it can`t happen really soon enough.


TUR: She said to his face all roads with you lead to Putin.


MOORE: Yes. That - some men would I guess call that emasculating. If I had

been in that room, I would have stood and cheered, because we - this is

what we need right now. We need this and -and let me just say on the

broader scale, we win when we run women, when women run for office

especially local office, that we saw this last November.


It will happen again next year. Women who are watching this right now, who

are thinking maybe I should be running for office, meaning the women

watching this tonight, maybe you should be running, maybe you should be

running for office, because the old way hasn`t worked.


TUR: We`re going to talk to you about 2020 in a moment, but I do - I want

to play this sound bite from Mick Mulvaney from yesterday, as he confesses

to a quid pro quo. Let`s listen.





in past the corruption related to the DNC server, absolutely, no question

about that.


But that`s it and that`s why we held up the money. We look back to what

happened in 2016, certainly was part of the thing that he was worried about

in corruption with that nation, and that is absolutely appropriate.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Withholding the funding.




UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You just described as a quid pro quo.


MULVANEY: We do that all the time with foreign policy. And I have news for

everybody, get over it, there`s going to be political influence in foreign





TUR: I`m just confused because the White House walked that back later, and

now their campaign is selling t-shirts with Get Over It as a slogan. So

what`s happening?


MOORE: Well of course, they are the best at Orwellian trickery in terms of-



TUR: They were never at war with Eurasia, we`ve always - no war with



MOORE: What do you mean we walked back? Yes we walked it back. Get over it.




The beauty of what Mulvaney did yesterday was this, as you said, you called

it an act of confession. For I don`t know what got into him, I`ve suggested

that maybe there was a truth serum given to him before the press

conference. Maybe it`s just sometimes you have to release, you have to let

it go, and he just had that - he had to tell the truth, and there`s

something redemptive about confession.


Maybe that`s as simple as that, that that`s what we saw. I can`t believe he

is the guy that Trump yelled at for coughing when George Stephanopoulos was

interviewing him in the Oval Office, is that correct?


TUR: Yes.






So I don`t know, maybe he was forced by Trump to go out there–


TUR: Or maybe they decided they`d say it out in the open, it`s not that big

of a deal. Michael, hold on because I want to get back to you on 2020 in

just a moment. Can you stay after the break?


MOORE: Yes, sure.


TUR: All right, so stay with us. Michael Moore and his thoughts on Donald

Trump and the 2020. Also an announcement from him, stay with us.




TUR: Michael Moore made big news in the 2020 Democratic Presidential race

today when he announced he`s endorsing Bernie Sanders. Michael Moore is

back with us. I want to know why you`ve decided to endorse Bernie Sanders,

but I`m curious because a moment ago you said women should run, women win,

we win with women, why not endorse one of the women in this race?


MOORE: We would win, whether it was with Elizabeth Warren - we - I think we

would win with Kamala Harris. I would - yes I think that even the polls

showed - they`ve been showing that the top five beat Trump in a head-to-

head race. In other words, there was an Emerson poll actually I think

yesterday just for Iowa, where it showed Bernie as the only one beating

Trump head-to-head, but the others were right behind him; Elizabeth, Biden.


TUR: Yes.


MOORE: Mayor Pete, I think any of a number of people can beat him. I

endorsed Bernie 30 years ago when he first ran for Congress.


TUR: So what do you think is so right for this moment about him?


MOORE: The reason I think that this is his moment, and I think there`s a

lot of people watching us who would very much like to see both of them

running together. Democrats have got to quit being so afraid. Oh we can`t

put two progressives on the same ticket.


Well why not? Why don`t we - how about this, why don`t we put two women on

the same ticket?


TUR: Let me ask you–


MOORE: Why don`t we do - what we should - we have to stop being afraid, we

have to stop being afraid of what Bernie is really saying here is that

greed runs the country. That has to stop.


All the problems that we talk, all the problems that make movies about,

health care, industrial America, whatever, they all stem from one problem,

the haves call the shots and the have-nots scramble for the crumbs.


TUR: And you know the Rust Belt, the Blue Wall - former Blue Wall better

than anybody.




TUR: Who do you think is going to resonate in Michigan, in Wisconsin, in



MOORE: Bernie. Bernie won Michigan, Bernie won Wisconsin, Bernie won

Minnesota, Bernie won all those primaries.


TUR: Is that who Democrats should be focusing on, those voters who maybe

were Obama voters and then Trump voters, and–




TUR: –can you peel them away or should they be focused on new voters?


MOORE: I think yes, I think what we need to do is figure out who didn`t

come out into in 2016; that was our problem in Michigan. Hillary only lost

by two votes per precinct, that`s it. And what happened was, in places like

Flint in Detroit, large numbers of young people and African-Americans just

didn`t bother to vote, or there`s 89,000 people that voted in Michigan, I

actually showed up to the polls, voted for everybody down ballot, it was

mostly Democrats, and left the top box blank.


That`s how much they didn`t want to vote for Hillary Clinton. We can`t let

this happen this time. We have to have people on the ballot, men and women,

who are going to bring out that vote. And 70 percent of the electorate next

year is either 18 to 35 people of color or women, and that is the base of

the Democratic Party.


Let me also add this, I am going to vote for whoever the Democrat is.


TUR: Who`s your second choice?


MOORE: My second choice will be Elizabeth Warren. I`ve had her in two of my

movies. I`ve known her for a long time, she`s a wonderful person.


TUR: I mean is that the magic power that she has right now, because when

you look at polling, she`s leading in a lot of polling, but when you look

at the second choice, she`s everybody`s second choice that they`re not -

not everybody, but a lot of people`s second choice, if she`s not their

first choice.


MOORE: Yes, and Bernie is number one with young adults, Bernie`s number one

with Latinos, Bernie is number one with black women between 18 and 35, and

there`s many where he`s number one.


It - I think - look I don`t - I have nothing critical to say about

Elizabeth Warren, other than I think that Bernie is going to get the job

done and Bernie`s going to fight, everybody knows this about Bernie

Sanders. Even if you`re not going to vote for him, you know that if he`s in

that Oval Office, he`s going to fight for us, for the working people of

this country, for the people who are not part of the 1%.


TUR: Why do you think there is this conventional wisdom out there that only

a moderate can win, only a moderately like Joe Biden and maybe Pete

Buttigieg, only that person can capture the entirety of the Democratic

Party enough to beat Donald Trump?


MOORE: A moderate - if we go for the moderate, if we go to the center,

we`re going to lose. The way to inspire our base, nobody on the Republicans

- this is what you have to admire about Republicans and conservatives. They

don`t sit around and going now we better have somebody closer to the middle

and somebody who`s moderate and somebody who doesn`t upset the Democrats so



They don`t talk like that. They say let`s get out there, we believe in

this, we`re not going to pull back, this is - we`re always trying to find a

way because we`re so frightened. We don`t need to be frightened because the

majority of the country is with us.


The majority believe that there`s climate change, they want gun control,

they believe women should be paid the same as men, they believe in choice.

Put down all the lists of all the issues, the majority agree with the



TUR: Let me ask you about health care, you know unions really well, unions

have - some of them at least have great health care.


MOORE: Yes, it`s true.


TUR: It`s the last thing that they have great health care–




TUR: –private health care. Are they going to be willing to vote for

someone who`s going to say I want to take your great health care–


MOORE: Absolutely.


TUR: –and put government run healthcare in place?


MOORE: Absolutely, because I was just in Flint, and I`ll tell you because

of this GM strike, the UAW strike. They went on strike, and what did the

CEO of GM do a few days into the strike, cut all their health care. And it

reminded them that this private health care that we have, this great health

care, this isn`t some permanent thing.


Your boss can take your health care from you at the snap of a finger,

that`s what they did to these striking workers, that`s what they could do

at any time. If it is part of our law that says that great health care is

yours simply because you live here, you`re a citizen of this country, you

are covered, as opposed to General Motors or Walmart or whatever that could

just wake up tomorrow and say, you know what, you don`t have it.


Just like these camera people or the people here I was just talking to,

this used to be union here, union workers at this network. Now they`re not

union, they don`t have - they don`t have a choice, they have no security,

when it`s private profit-making health care.


We need health care that is not set up so that a few companies can make

billions of dollars in profits. It has to be - why can`t we do this? Every

other country does this. What is wrong with us that we can`t figure this

out? To say that it`s going to be this or that or whatever, well that`s not

true with these other countries. They pull it off. We should have the same

thing. Bernie Sanders will make sure that this happens, everybody will be



TUR: Can big business and Bernie Sanders or Elizabeth Warren, can those two

entities or those candidates and big business, can they live - can they get

along, can they coexist?


MOORE: Well big business is run by human beings, who have a conscience.

Deep deep down, there is a conscience. So yes, they can–


TUR: CEOs hate the two of them more than anybody.


MOORE: Yes. Oh I know that, they are so afraid - they are so afraid of

Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren. Good, good sign. But you know what,

they also know that they have to live in the same society that we`re all

living in. And if there is not a safety net, if these cracks exist, where

people fall between them and can never recover, we have a society that`s

worse off. We have a society that`s less safe.


We have citizens who give up on their democracy and don`t vote. People who

run these companies better understand that they should start acting like

Americans with a conscience and do what`s right for the people. And you

know what, you don`t need nine vacation homes, you can get by on three.




I mean I don`t - nobody wants all your vacation homes rich people, just

hang on to the three, give away the six and let everybody have health care.


TUR: Michael, it`s been wonderful to meet you.


MOORE: It`s so great to meet you, Katy.


TUR: Thanks for being a fan of American swamp.


MOORE: Yes. Oh that was a great series.


TUR: Great.


MOORE: Who do we talk to about bringing it back?


TUR: I think you know who to talk to.


MOORE: Where are they at?


TUR: He`s going to go find my bosses. Michael Moore, thank you for coming

on and thank you for–


MOORE: Never want me in this building.




TUR: Thank you for promoting my show.


He will also be on MSNBC tomorrow night for a special airing of his Oscar-

winning 2002 documentary, Bowling for Columbine. It`ll be followed by an

interview with Ari Melber, that starts at 9:00 p.m. tomorrow night right

here on MSNBC.


And coming up, Donald Trump`s so-called ceasefire deal with Turkey is

turning out to be neither, according to experts and our European allies.





President Erdogan of Turkey. We`re doing very, very well with Turkey.

There`s a ceasefire or a pause or whatever you want to call it. There was

some sniper fire this morning, there was mortar fire this morning. That was

eliminated quickly and they are back to the full pause.


A lot of pain for a couple of days, and sometimes you have to go through

some pain before you can get a good solution.




TUR: That was President Trump today defending his administration`s

temporary deal to pause hostilities in Northern Syria. Kurdish forces in

Syria are accusing Turkey of not holding up their end of the deal.


And French reporters with AFP reported that Turkey was continuing

airstrikes in the region today. At a meeting of the European Council today,

America`s allies strongly condemned Trump`s actions. French President

Emmanuel Macron called the U.S. decision in Syria a serious mistake Donald.


Donald Tusk, the President of the European Council, said of the deal

between the U.S. and Turkey, the so-called ceasefire, is not what we

expected. In fact, it`s not a ceasefire, it`s a demand of capitulation of

the Kurds.


Nicholas Kristof is a Pulitzer Prize winning columnist for The New York

Times, who has written extensively about the Middle East. He`s going to

join us next to help us understand what Donald Trump`s actions in Syria

mean for our Kurdish allies and for the future of U.S. foreign policy.

That`s next.






TRUMP: We have a 22-mile strip that for many, many years Turkey, in all

fairness, have had a legitimate problem with. They had terrorists, they had

a lot of people in there that they couldn`t have. They`ve suffered a loss

of lives also. And they had to have it cleaned out.




TUR: They had to have it cleaned out. That is how Donald Trump describes

Turkey`s actions in Northern Syria, which many believe to be an attempt at

ethnically cleansing the region. Joining us now is someone who knows a lot

about this issue and can help put it into perspective.


Nicholas Kristof is a Pulitzer Prize winning columnist for The New York

Times, who`s written extensively about the Middle East. So this

terminology, cleaned out, is that just - is that something he potentially

heard from President Erdogan and just repeated it?



He`s repeating a Turkish talking point, and I just find it infuriating to

hear that clip, that we not only betrayed the Kurds but then badmouthed

them in the process. The Kurds in 2014, when the Yazidis were facing a

genocide, it was the Kurds who helped save their lives and avert that



And now they`re being betrayed into something like that ethnic cleansing.

The Kurds were championing women`s empowerment, and then one woman

politician aged 34 gets pulled out of her car and beaten and shot to death

by these invaders that we helped unleash on them.


TUR: Could you say the Kurds were the most western ally in that region for

us, the ally that lived up to the more secular ideal of democracy, more so

than anybody else, at least? It`s all relative, obviously.


KRISTOF: Look, this was imperfect, but they genuinely tried to create an

entity that was democratic, that protected minority rights like those of

the Yazidi, like those of the minority Christian community that empowered

women. And they trusted and they saved American lives when they worked with

us. They trusted us. We told them that they could take out their defenses

to the North because we had their backs, and then we walked out and left

them to be attacked.


TUR: It`s not just abandoning our ally or betraying our ally. We`re leaving

a vacuum there. And who`s going to fill that vacuum, who wins?


KRISTOF: So, often in foreign policy there`s a tension between our values

and our interests. In this case, not only have we betrayed our values, but

we`ve damaged our own interests. The beneficiaries here are - well the

Syrian government, Iran, Russia. With Trump, so many roads lead to Russia,

of course.


But we have empowered all the people who we should be attempting to limit

in that region. And we`ve done it not - we`ve done it in the course of

damaging our own credibility, the trust that people have for us, from

Russia to Hezbollah to Syria, people are cackling about, this teaches

anybody not to trust Americans anymore.


TUR: How much stock do you put in the cease-fire?


KRISTOF: Well, I mean, look, Turkey, if they can get what they want without

fighting, then of course it`s great for them. So they`ve called on - the

U.S. is incredibly committed to helping remove the Kurds from this safety



A former UN diplomat told me that this is a little like the 1938 Munich

agreement, except that even Neville Chamberlain didn`t agree to move out

the Czechs from the Sudetenland. And that`s what the U.S. has agreed to do,

to help not only - let Turkey march in and get this safe zone, but help

remove the Kurds from this area.


TUR: When it comes to polling on the President`s strategy in Northern

Syria, the majority of people in the poll don`t support it; 48% don`t

support, 31% do. Does that matter?


KRISTOF: No. Look, at the end of the day–


TUR: To trump, I should say.


KRISTOF: It may matter to Trump. But I just find this so deeply offensive

that we have people who trusted us, and then we betrayed them so publicly.

And people who were trying to do some of the things that we say we care

about, and the example this sets to the world.


We have this grand rhetoric and everybody knows we don`t fully live up to

it, and we fall short. But they`ve always thought there was at least

something to these American ideals that we talked about. Now, we`re shown

to be so morally bankrupt before the world, in the course of betraying our

friends and empowering our rivals and enemies. This is just a colossal

mistake at every possible level.


TUR: Nicholas Kristof, thank you so much for joining us on this Friday

night. That`s tonight Last Word. I`m Katy Tur. The 11th Hour with Brian

Williams start right now.







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