Cabinet member wrongdoing. TRANSCRIPT: 9/24/19, The Last Word w/ Lawrence O’Donnell.

Sen. Kamala Harris; Sen. Cory Booker; Larry Pfeiffer

LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, MSNBC HOST:  Good evening, Rachel. 


And American history turned a corner today. 




O`DONNELL:  We know the road we`re on.  We know the name of the street. 

It`s impeachment street. 


We don`t know how far it goes.  We don`t know where it ends. 


MADDOW:  Do you feel like, Lawrence, you have clarity about how the

Democrats are going to pursue this? 


O`DONNELL:  I do not.  It`s not a version of this that we`ve seen before,

but I do believe they can work it out.  I actually think the Pelosi

structure of this saying that all six committees are involved now in an

impeachment inquiry is designed to allow sharing of information from one

committee to another that otherwise might not be easy to do, especially

information from the intelligence committee to any other committee and the

ways and means committee if they have information will be in the form of

the Trump tax returns eventually. 


So, it`s designed, I believe, to facilitate that, but ultimately the

impeachment committee is the House Judiciary Committee.  There`s just no

constitutional way around that. 


MADDOW:  Yes.  And there aren`t very many precedents in history for how to

do this sort of thing, it just hasn`t happened very many times.  But

talking with Financial Services Committee Chairman Maxine Waters today,

it`s surprised with what you just said there, it surprised me to hear her

say she thinks this is going to happen very fast, that this is a short time

frame and that this is something that the committee chairs are working on

today, are working on tomorrow and are expected to be working on the rest

of the week, like it`s happening right away. 


O`DONNELL:  Well, it has to and it can.  Both of those things are true. 

And this new story, this new development that is driving impeachment now is

so clear and compartmentalized that it`s one of those stories that once you

get the information, you can work pretty quickly on it. 


MADDOW:  Right.  There`s not much – you don`t have to dig too far.  What`s

been publicly admitted to is kind of the bottom line. 


O`DONNELL:  We`ve seen a rolling confession by the president, Rachel.  I

think on the theory that if President Trump says it publicly, it can`t be a



MADDOW:  Yes.  And so, now, he finally gets tested on that. 




O`DONNELL:  Yes, he found the end of that strategy. 


MADDOW:  Yes, thanks a lot, Lawrence. 


O`DONNELL:  Thank you, Rachel. 


MADDOW:  Well, we are covering breaking news tonight, but we`re also

covering breaking history, and history is moving fast.  It was a very bad

day in the House of Representatives for the president today with the

speaker formalizing the impeachment process, but in the Senate, it was just

as bad with Mitch McConnell agreeing to a unanimous consent request from

Chuck Schumer to pass a Senate resolution telling the president to release

the whistleblower`s report to the Senate and House Intelligence Committee. 


So, Mitch McConnell voted for that.  He allowed that to go through the

Senate, as did every other Republican in the Senate.  It was unanimous.  It

was a Chuck Schumer resolution, and the vote was unanimous.  We`ll get

reactions to today`s events in the Senate from two United States senators

who are also presidential candidates. 


Senator Kamala Harris will join us.  She`s a member of the Senate

Intelligence Committee who will be meeting with the acting director of

national intelligence and the inspector general later this week.  And

Senator Cory Booker will join us.  He`s a member of the Senate Foreign

Relations Committee.  He knows what`s at stake for U.S. policy in Ukraine. 


We`ll also be joined by members of the House of Representatives who have

just this week come out in support of an impeachment inquiry, including one

member who is a former CIA officer.  And at the end of the hour tonight,

there is something very special.  We`re going to take you inside the White

House Situation Room.  That`s where presidential phone calls with leaders

of governments around the world are monitored.  That`s where the note-

takers are.  That`s who creates transcripts of those presidential phone



We will be joined by someone who was in charge of monitoring those phone

calls in the situation room when President Barack Obama was making and

receiving those phone calls.  He`ll tell us what kind of records of those

phone calls should exist and could be made public. 


O`DONNELL:  The stonewall, the Republican stonewall in Congress that has

supported and defended Donald Trump at every turn throughout his

presidency, that stonewall finally came tumbling down today on the matter

of the whistleblower.  A whistleblower has blown that stone wall down in

just seven days.  One whistleblower has triggered a formal impeachment



Just one week ago, Michael Atkinson, the inspector general of the

intelligence community, secretly notified the House and Senate Intelligence

Committees that the Trump administration was violating the law by refusing

to turn over a whistleblower complaint. 


Tonight, Nancy Pelosi became the fourth speaker of the House in American

history to preside over an impeachment inquiry of the president of the

United States. 




REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA):  The president has admitted to asking the

president of Ukraine to take actions which would benefit him politically. 

The actions of the Trump – the actions of the Trump presidency revealed

dishonorable fact of the president`s betrayal of his oath of office,

betrayal of our national security, and betrayal of the integrity of our

elections.  Therefore, today, I`m announcing the House of Representatives

moving forward with an official impeachment inquiry.  I`m directing our six

committees to proceed with their investigations under that umbrella of

impeachment inquiry. 




O`DONNELL:  History is moving fast tonight on all fronts of this story.  In

the House of Representatives, in the Senate and in the Trump administration

with the acting director of national intelligence, Joseph Maguire, fighting

for his life legally tonight.  The speaker of the House today repeatedly

accused Joseph Maguire of committing a crime without mentioning him by

name.  She twice said this is a violation of law.  Those were her words. 


She was referring to Joseph Maguire`s refusal to deliver the

whistleblower`s complaint directly to Congress as the law requires him to





PELOSI:  The law is unequivocal.  The DNI`s staff – it says the DNI,

director of national intelligence, shall provide Congress the full

whistleblower complaint.  This Thursday, the acting DNI will appear before

the House Intelligence Committee.  At that time, he must turn over the

whistleblower`s full complaint to the committee.  He will have to choose

whether to break the law or honor his responsibility to the Constitution. 




O`DONNELL:  And tonight, in response, the acting director of national

intelligence Joseph Maguire, released a written statement saying: In light

of recent reporting on the whistleblower complaint, I want to make clear

that I have upheld my responsibility to follow the law every step of the



The law tells the director of national intelligence that he must deliver

the whistleblower complaint to Congress, and he has refused to do that. 

The whistleblower`s attorney, Andrew Bakaj, wrote a letter to Joseph

Maguire saying: I am providing you formal notice of our intent to contact

the congressional intelligence committees directly. 


That provoked a reply from Jason Klitenic, the general counsel of the

Office of the Director of National Intelligence.  In that letter he said:

We – we have determined after consulting with the department of justice

that your client`s disclosure to the inspector general does not fall within

the statutory definition of an urgent concern. 


That means Jason Klitenic has now put in writing that he personally joined

in this violation of law with Joseph Maguire.  We have determined, he



The law does not allow him to determine anything about a whistleblower



The chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, Adam Schiff, then wrote a

letter to the whistleblower`s lawyer saying: In light of your notice of

intent to the acting director of national intelligence, the committee

requests a voluntary interview with your client on Thursday, September 26,

2019, in the afternoon, following the public testimony of Acting Director

Maguire before the committee. 


Nancy Pelosi has been resisting, formalizing the impeachment process –

until today. 




PELOSI:  The president must be held accountable.  No one is above the law. 

Getting back to our Founders, in the darkest days of the American

Revolution, Thomas Paine wrote, the times have found us.  The times found

them to fight for and establish our democracy.  The times have found us





O`DONNELL:  Leading off our discussion tonight are: Democratic Congressman

Ben Ray Lujan of Mexico.  He is the assistant speaker of the House of

Representatives and he is running for Senate in New Mexico.


Also joining us, Democratic Congresswoman Abigail Spanberger of Virginia. 

She`s a former CIA officer and a member of the Foreign Affairs Committee. 

She and other six other national security Democrats authored an op-ed in

“The Washington Post” supporting an impeachment inquiry. 


And Democratic Congresswoman Angie Craig of Minnesota, she came out last

night in support of an impeachment inquiry. 


Congressman Lujan, let me start with you.  You`re a member of the

leadership.  You have been supportive of the impeachment inquiry.  What was

your reading of the speaker`s decision-making process that got us to here? 


REP. BEN RAY LUJAN (D-NM):  Well, Lawrence, good to be with you tonight,

number one.  Number two, everyone should understand the speaker always has

a plan.  The speaker is someone that can see around the corner, that is

making sure that we`re making strong decisions. 


But the speaker`s announcement today of moving forward with the impeachment

process, of making it abundantly clear that the six committees that have

jurisdiction and that are conducting investigations are now operating under

this umbrella helps us understand the magnitude of this moment. 


O`DONNELL:  Abigail Spanberger, let me ask you about some testimony that

the president, in effect, gave today that we now know is an impeachment

inquiry.  He said this before the impeachment inquiry was formalized, but -

- and presidents don`t normally testify in impeachment inquiries.  But

let`s listen to what he said today about withholding funding from Ukraine. 





those funds were paid.  They were fully paid.  But my complaint has always

been, and I`ll withhold again and I`ll withhold until such time as Europe

and other countries contribute to Ukraine, because they`re not doing it. 




O`DONNELL:  Congresswoman Spanberger, your reaction to that defense. 


REP. ABIGAIL SPANBERGER (D-VA):  Well, in that defense, he both said he

didn`t withhold and that he would withhold again in the future.  It`s

contradictory.  We know that funds were withheld and this is detrimental to

our national security. 


These security assistance funds that we provide to other countries are

appropriated by Congress, part of larger programs, for stabilization

efforts, anti-corruption efforts, and our efforts to ensure and provide for

our own national security priorities in regions throughout the world.  And

so, the fact that as the allegations are, the president would use this

money, this taxpayer dollars that is meant for security assistance as

leverage to get a foreign government to dig up dirt on an opponent, it is

just inconceivable for so many of us here in the House of Representatives. 


O`DONNELL:  Representative Spanberger, you have just decided to support

impeachment on the basis of this incident.  Why was this the final straw

for you? 


SPANBERGER:  So, I have been very clear that these allegations, the notion

that the president would ask a foreign country to provide information, dig

up dirt on a political adversary and to use foreign assistance, military

assistance dollars to do it, it is – it is incomprehensible, it is

absolutely a violation of the president`s oath, and these stand-alone

allegations as they are drawn up are for me what it is that I`m focused on.


I have been clear in stating that if they are true, that they are an

impeachable – they represent an impeachable offense.  And so for me, I`m

looking at these allegations in an isolated manner, frankly, because they

are so egregious, they represent a tremendous threat to our national

security.  And I think they are allegations that we need to deal with

fully, and that was the purpose of our op-ed. 


O`DONNELL:  And, Representative Angie Craig, like Representative

Spanberger, you are from a district that was a Republican district.  You

flipped it.  You both flipped your districts for the Democrats. 


You are the kind of member of the House, you`re both the kinds of members

of the House that the impression has been – Nancy Pelosi has been

protecting you by not letting impeachment be formalized in the House of

Representatives because for representatives in swing districts like yours

that could be politically difficult. 


You`ve come out in favor of impeachment also because of this incident.  Why

was this your final straw? 


REP. ANGIE CRAIG (D-MN):  Well, the speaker has given us the freedom to do

what we think is right for our own congressional districts, and I`ve been

listening to the folks in my district over the last several months.  I`ve

wanted to be disciplined.  I`ve wanted to listen to the facts and use due



But the facts changed on Sunday.  The facts are so crystal clear.  The

president, ironically, is the one who shared them with us, the fact that he

pressured a foreign government to interfere with a political rival for the

benefit of his own election in 2020, and the fact that those funds to

Ukraine were being withheld in advance of that. 


This isolated incident alone was enough for me to say we have to put this

country over our politics, and I hope that many of my Republican colleagues

will join me in doing that. 


O`DONNELL:  Congressman Lujan, we have reports now that President Trump is

going to release a transcript of the phone call and that the administration

will eventually possibly this week, by the end of the week, release the

actual inspector general`s report of the whistleblower`s report. 


What is your reaction – we still don`t know exactly what these things will

look like when they`re released, whether they will be heavily redacted or

what these documents are actually going to be when they`re released, but

that is the developing situation as it is tonight. 


LUJAN:  Well, Lawrence, it`s absolutely essential that the full report that

was made available by the whistleblower as reported from the inspector

general to the director of national intelligence be released to the chairs

of the intelligence committee.  Not only is it essential, it`s the law. 

The law requires for that report to be turned over. 


So, I don`t know what the president plans to do turning over transcripts. 

I think it`s absolutely incumbent that we get word for word everything we

can get our hands on, but what is actually expected as the law requires is

for the whistleblower`s report to be turned over, and that should be turned

over no later than Thursday.  It should be turned over now. 


O`DONNELL:  And, Representative Spanberger, there is new reporting in the

“Washington Post” tonight, breaking news reporting about the strains inside

the Trump administration with Rudy Giuliani basically having this portfolio

to argue this case, to lobby, to try to influence Ukraine to investigate

Joe Biden, Joe Biden`s son.  And the state department was upset about this,

John Bolton was upset about this, and apparently these tensions are part of

what is delivering some of the – inside the administration sourcing that

the news media is working with. 


SPANBERGER:  So the tensions that you mention, I think, are easily

definable.  They are the tensions that exist between those that are working

potentially to uphold the law, and those who are looking to abuse their

position.  The fact there would be State Department officers uncomfortable

with the type of actions that Rudy Giuliani was allegedly taking, I think,

is absolutely what I would expect of our career diplomats who are focused

on the mission of advocating for American interests abroad, protecting

American interests abroad, and anyone who swore an oath to uphold the



O`DONNELL:  And, Representative Craig, also in the “Washington Post”

tonight, they are indicating that Rudy Giuliani was off on his own in a way

that they were trying to figure out what he was doing was actually by

reading newspapers and watching TV of Rudy Giuliani`s statements about what

his involvement in Ukraine might be.  They had no way within the

administration, apparently, of finding out what it was. 


CRAIG:  Well, this gets to the heart of the issue with the president, and

that is he has put his own personal interests by nature of putting his

personal attorney in the middle of all of this.  And that`s exactly why we

couldn`t stand on the sidelines and allow this continued behavior – this

behavior to continue by the president and his personal attorney. 


O`DONNELL:  Congressman Lujan, the Senate unanimous consent agreement today

I think was a surprise to everyone, that the Senate went on record

unanimously, saying that the whistleblower complaint should be delivered to

the intelligence committees immediately.  The House of Representatives,

there`s indications from the leadership that you might vote on something

similar tomorrow? 


LUJAN:  That`s correct, we`re expecting a vote on something similar

tomorrow.  But here`s the thing as well, Lawrence.  While I appreciate the

urgency that Leader McConnell listened to the direction of Leader Schumer

to bring that resolution to the Senate floor, and every Republican voted

there in favor as well as every Democrat, the silence of House Democrats is



No one is coming forward to talk about the concern associated with the fact

that the law is being broken.  The director of national intelligence

refuses to comply with the law, and I think that`s why there is such

urgency to bring this resolution forward and to continue to make progress. 


I certainly hope my House Republican colleagues have the courage of the

Senate Republicans to do what`s right and to demand that this report be

turned over immediately. 


O`DONNELL:  Congressman Ben Ray Lujan, Congresswoman Abigail Spanberger,

Congresswoman Angie Craig, thank you all for starting us off tonight.  We

really appreciate it. 


SPANBERGER:  Thank you.


LUJAN:  Thanks for having us.


CRAIG:  Thank you. 


O`DONNELL:  Well, as we say, things went badly for the president in the

Democratic-controlled House of Representatives with the speaker`s

announcement of the formal impeachment inquiry today.  But they went just

as badly for the president today in the Republican-controlled United States

Senate where Mitch McConnell agreed to Democratic Leader Chuck Schumer`s

request for unanimous consent for a resolution, saying that the

whistleblower complaint should be provided to the House and Senate

Intelligence Committees. 




SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY):  Madam President, as if in legislative session,

I ask unanimous consent that the Senate proceed to the immediate

consideration of S Resolution 325 introduced by Mr. Schumer and submitted

earlier today. 


SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY):  Stipulating that our objective here is simply

to conduct the kind of bipartisan oversight of intelligence matters that

the committee has successfully conducted in the past.  I have no objection

to the senator`s request. 




O`DONNELL:  Joining our discussion now is Senator Kamala Harris.  She is a

member of both the Senate Judiciary Committee and the Senate Intelligence

Committee.  She`s also now a Democratic candidate for president. 


Senator, thank you very much for joining us tonight. 


Please explain to us what Mitch McConnell was up to there today, actually

agreeing to unanimous consent with Chuck Schumer? 



said, I serve on the Senate Intelligence Committee.  And I must tell you,

there is something special, actually, about that committee in that,

specifically, no televisions, no reporters, no cell phones.  And what ends

up happening in my experience is that members of the United States Senate

walk in that door and really do put country first and understand, for the

most part, what we all should appreciate, which is that on matters of

national security, the approach should not even be bipartisan.  It should

be nonpartisan. 


And I`d like to believe that that is what motivated Mitch McConnell.  And -

- but I think, ultimately, it is because at least the members of the Senate

Intelligence Committee thus far have conducted themselves in a way that

recognizes that we need to get to the bottom of something like this.  This

is literally a matter of national security. 


O`DONNELL:  Now, with – if these – if the inspector general`s report is

referred, delivered directly to your committee, both of the intelligence

committees, does that mean that those committees must hold that report and

it cannot be made public because it`s in the custody of the intelligence



HARRIS:  Well, if it – if it contains classified information, then that is

correct.  But I`ll know better when we have the hearing on Thursday, but if

there is information that is in that report that is not classified and has

been deemed to not be classified, then absolutely, it should be shared with

the American public. 


O`DONNELL:  A lot of letters flying around Washington today from the

whistleblower`s lawyer, the DNI`s counsel. 


And now, the Chairman Burr of your committee and Senator Warner have

written a bipartisan letter to the whistleblower`s lawyer, saying: We are

writing to request that you make your client available – 


HARRIS:  Right, that`s right.


O`DONNELL:  – for a closed bipartisan interview – 




O`DONNELL:  – with committee counsel no later than Friday of this week. 


So, that would be an interview with committee counsel as the first thing

that they would like to do. 


HARRIS:  Uh-huh.


O`DONNELL:  Do you think that is likely to happen?  It`s a very fast-moving

week, but by the end of this week, do you think this whistleblower will be

speaking to the intelligence committees of the House and the Senate? 


HARRIS:  Well, from all accounts, the whistleblower, she or he, wants to

participate, and again, I think that we should all be heartened to know

that the Republican chairman, the Democratic co-chairman of the Senate

Intelligence Committee are joined in this request, understanding that –

again, Lawrence, look what we`re talking about.  The president of the

United States has confessed that he is – that he is attempting to collude

with a foreign government to yet again manipulate the elections process of

our country, and in particular, the election of who will be the next

president of the United States. 


And, you know, I tell you, Donald Trump is probably the least patriotic of

any president we`ve ever had.  And there should be – and I`m very

heartened to see that there is – a bipartisan approach to this issue, an

issue of concern, and frankly, an issue of outrage, which is the president

of the United States engaging in this kind of conduct. 


Clearly, Donald Trump does not understand that his responsibility as

president is also as commander-in-chief.  But repeatedly we have seen

Donald Trump as a so-called commander-in-chief, because I don`t think he

really fully understands the job, he takes the word of the Russian

president over the word of the American intelligence community.  He takes

the word of a North Korean dictator over the word of the American

intelligence community.  He takes the word of a Saudi prince over the word

of the Senate intelligence community. 


And I`m, again, heartened to see that leaders in the United States Senate

who serve on the Senate Intelligence Committee are approaching this with a

bipartisan spirit, understanding again that, fundamentally, this is about

America`s national security. 


O`DONNELL:  Speaker Pelosi repeatedly today in her statement said – used

the phrase “violation of law”.  She said that`s a violation of law. 




O`DONNELL:  She was referring specifically to the conduct of Acting

Director of National Intelligence Maguire.  Do you agree that he violated

the law? 


HARRIS:  Well, what I do believe is that there are many members of this

administration, starting with the president, who believes that he is above

the law, and no one in our system of democracy and in our system of justice

is above the law, including the president of the United States.  And there

must be accountability and consequence for behaviors that are clearly

against the law.  And that includes for the president. 


And I applaud Speaker Pelosi for indicating today that impeachment

proceedings will begin.  The American people have a right to know that the

branch of government that exists to put a check on an abuse of power by the

executive, that the United States Congress that we are prepared to take

action to require accountability and consequence for the abuse of power by

this president. 


O`DONNELL:  What is the proper accountability for an acting director of

national intelligence who refuses to comply with the law?  It`s not the

president who is holding onto that inspector general`s report.  It is

Director Maguire who is holding onto it. 


HARRIS:  Well, I`ll know better after Thursday`s hearing.  But there is no

question that the acting director is violating his responsibility to give

account to the United States Congress. 


We have a very specific and important role of oversight.  And any request

made by the United States Congress, in particular, the Intelligence

Committees of the House or the Senate, must be complied with by the

director of national intelligence.  And again, we have yet another

appointee of Donald Trump`s who thinks that their power is greater than

that of the United States Congress and there should be consequence, and

we`ll see what that is. 


O`DONNELL:  What would you say to – not just this whistleblower who may be

watching you right now, but any other possible whistleblowers who are

watching the experience of this whistleblower? 




O`DONNELL:  Should they be frightened by what`s happening to this

whistleblower?  Or encouraged at the light that is coming in the direction

of this whistleblower? 


HARRIS:  What I am saying is you are a true patriot, that you are

demonstrating an extraordinary amount of courage to stand up for the

integrity of our democracy.  And that the – that the United States

Congress stands behind you and with you, and as demonstrated again by the

fact that there is a bipartisan push to give support and to give respect to

the words and the information that the whistleblower has. 


And so, I think that this should be actually a very clear signal that all

are welcome who have information that may be relevant to our nation`s

security.  And that they really should be compelled and feel a sense of

patriotic duty to come forward, because of course the stakes are very high

when we`re talking about the president of the United States colluding with

a foreign government leader against our democracy. 


You know, and, Lawrence, I can`t say it enough.  Donald Trump doesn`t

understand.  That`s not his White House, it`s our White House.  It`s the

people`s house. 


And any act that he takes that is against the interest of the people of the

United States must be aired, there must be transparency around it, and he

must be held accountable. 


O`DONNELL:  There is a foreign policy issue at the base of this story that

is getting largely ignored as we talk about the other elements of it.  But

what should be our policy toward Ukraine at this moment in their history? 


HARRIS:  Well, there is a lot there.  I mean, what we need to do is

obviously, first of all, deal with the fact that the president should not

be bargaining what otherwise would be aid in exchange for action that helps

him politically.  We should follow through with our commitment as a country

to Ukraine, around what they need in terms of humanitarian aid and

assistance, what they need in terms of fighting for democracy and for the

sovereignty that they deserve. 


And as we go forward, we`re going to have to, obviously, probably repair

relationships around the globe in terms of what this president has done,

which is to suggest that our relationships with any foreign nation are

transactional based on what that nation can do for the best political

interest of the President of the United States.


LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, HOST, MSNBC: Senator Kamala Harris, thank you very much

for joining us on this important night. Really appreciate it.


HARRIS: Thank you Lawrence, thank you.


O`DONNELL: And when we come back, Presidential candidate, Cory Booker will

join us. He is a member of the Senate foreign relations committee. That

committee is investigating the hold the Trump administration ports on

financial aid to Ukraine. Senator Cory Booker joins us next.




O`DONNELL: Today all ten Democrats on the Senate Judiciary Committee called

on Republican Chairman Lindsey Graham to obtain and investigate the

whistleblower reports and hold a hearing with Attorney General William

Barr. In a letter today the senators wrote we have a constitutional

responsibility to determine the reasons for the whistleblowers report and

why it is being withheld from Congress.


We therefore ask that you convene hearings to address the facts underlying

the whistle blower`s report. The administration`s refusal to provide that

report to Congress in contravention of the law and any legal advice

provided by the Department of Justice or the White House Counsel on these

matters and joining us now is one of the co-signers of that letter,

Democratic Senator Cory Booker, a member of the Senate Judiciary Committee

and the Senate Foreign Relations Committee.


Senator Booker is also a democratic candidate for President. Senator, thank

you very much for joining us.



here tonight.


O`DONNELL: This - so this goes to the question of what did William Barr do

in this process. The law provides no moment at which the Director of

National Intelligence should consult the Justice Department about what to

do and yet that happened.


BOOKER: The law is very clear. They use the word that is we know in

Congress very well, it`s the word not `may`, it is `shall.` Nancy Pelosi

was a 100 percent right tonight when she said they did not abide by the

law. This is clear.


Congress should be in possession of that report and those who have not done

it to me acted not only in contrary to the law but given the subject matter

here, this is a moment where all of us as Americans even those of us who

you injured by Donald Trump, want him to be on, this is we need to take a

sober pause and understand that this must be seen through the lens of



And what is at stake for our country right now. I`ve visited Ukraine as a

member of the Foreign Relations Committee. I`ve met with their soldiers who

are relying on the aid of this country, who are on in the Donbass region in

eastern Ukraine who are under attack by the Russians who had already

annexed Crimea.


This is a hot war going on in Europe where there are specific American

interests in that region and to understand that the gravity of what the

Russians are doing, not just to Ukraine but talk to Latvians, Estonians,

Lithuanians. Talk to the mischief when I was in Poland, this time with our

military officials who called it a hybrid war we`re in right now.


With the Russians working, whether it`s the hot aspects of it in the

Donbass region in Ukraine or the last time in the Senate I went into the

bunker we have to read intelligence reports about what the Russians are

doing to interfere with our democracy right now.


They are actively attacking the United States. Congress is working in a

bipartisan manner to give the critical resources, I saw with my own eyes,

heard from generals in the field that that they need to defend themselves

to protect their lives, to serving American interests.


And this is a President United States, forget partisanship or party, the

President of United States was withholding aid in a bipartisan Congress

wanted to send not for any national security reason but for petty political

attempt to yet again undermine America`s elections.


This is insidious and it must be dealt with in a patriotic bipartisan

manner. This cannot be acceptable in America.


O`DONNELL: What happened in the Senate today? Why did Mitch McConnell go on

with this unanimous consent request?


BOOKER: I`m not sure and I`ve stopped long ago trying to figure out the

mind of Mitch McConnell but I can`t imagine a moment where Chuck Schumer

stood on the Senate floor and requested unanimous consent, someone has to

come to the floor and object.


And I can imagine a moment where someone comes to the floor and objects to

the Senate having access to a report that the law says it should have, it

kind of puts you on a difficult footing. I`m not sure if all the

Republicans and clearly what we`re seeing now the Senate intelligence

committee that there are many Republicans that agree we should have this



So the more I think about it, the more I understand that this was perhaps

the right thing for Mitch McConnell to do for a number of the reasons that

are part of that man`s calculus and how he deals in the senate.


O`DONNELL: Could it also be part of the Presidential campaign in the

following way. Mitch McConnell knows this is actually coming up. It cannot

be stopped. The sooner it comes out for Mitch McConnell, the better because

a year from now say, or in the middle of the Republican convention, he

doesn`t want his nominee hit with something like this.


Then this gives him time to make a plan for different nominee if he has to.


BOOKER: You know, Mitch McConnell is definitely one of those people you

know when the senate is playing three dimensional chess. And I`m sure there

are layers of their thinking of this and forgive me for not thinking on

those layers because I think this is a moment where politics should be

damned and we should sit, understanding that we will be judged by history.


What did we do when a United States President was betraying his office,

betraying Congress, betraying the self - the national security interests of

this country to yet pursue attacks on a political opponent. This to me is

very dramatic. We are in a very dramatic moment in American history and we

should be clear enough to let patriotism be the day, not partisanship.


O`DONNELL: Has the President in effect confessed now publicly to a high

crime when he said today, when he talked about, I would withhold again

meaning I did withhold.


BOOKER: Yes, to me it just seemed another moment that is consistent with

his past of reckless defiance of our laws and our norms, starting back when

he was on the campaign where he said, hey Russians, you know, investigate -

get the emails - which is exactly the criminal activity that went on in

stealing the emails of Secretary Clinton.


So this is not out of character with him and I think again, this is yet

another reason why the House of Representatives and Nancy Pelosi did what

they did today, it was too much of a flaunting of our constitution and of

our national security by a President that clearly is in reckless disregard

for our nation`s best intent.


O`DONNELL: And Adam Schiff tonight saying that the President in this phone

call does not have to specifically say, I won`t give you the money if you

don`t do the investigation. Adam Schiff`s point being that of course, it

can be implied. Let`s listen to what the Chairman of your Committee of the

Judiciary Committee said with Sean Hannity tonight.




SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R): Tomorrow when we read the transcript, is there any

evidence at all that President Trump threatened to take it away from the

Ukraine unless they investigate Biden or do his–



Senator. What are you hearing?


GRAHAM: I don`t know but I`ll tell you this, if the answer is yes, I`ll be

on your show very disappointed with our President.




O`DONNELL: What would you say to your Chairman?


BOOKER: I agree with Adam Schiff. We all know how this works. If he was

taking actions and the evidence is mounting that he was specifically taking

action to deny aid. I`ve heard a number of things from commercial

colleagues today that give me great suspicion this is what he was doing.


If the evidence is mounting that he actually took those actions and then

eight times in a conversation kept pressing this point, I think you`re

beginning to have a refutable picture of this President acting against the

national interest and trying to do something that is thuggish frankly when

it comes to the national stage that is a defiling of the presidency, of

that office, of our country and he should be held to account.


O`DONNELL: Let me ask you something about running a Presidential campaign

in the midst of this kind of atmosphere. A couple of minutes of what we

discussed here tonight was your view from a Presidential perspective about

an important foreign policy situation that you would inherit as President,

Ukraine policy.


So that that was a good serious presidential level conversation about that.

There are 10 other presidential issues I know you`d like to discuss, we`re

not going to. We`re not going to talk about your criminal justice policies

tonight. We`re not going to talk about any of - any of your economic

policies tonight.


We - our time is devoted to this. Does this make running for President now

more difficult challenge that it would in a flatter news environment.


BOOKER: You know I think one of the greatest privileges I had in my life is

to serve in the United States Senate and to be able to serve my country

especially in times like this, in times of natural disaster, in times of

crisis, to have the privilege of being there to fight for people.


And so there are individual ambitions, there are campaigns going on but you

have to separate those two and do your job. So today, this is a painfully

historic day in many ways the fourth time in the history of our Republic

that this has happened and for good reason.


So I`m sitting in the saddle, I`m doing my job as United States Senator.

The Presidential campaign will, whatever will happen will happen but this

is one of those times that politics, partisanship, that all of those things

should be put aside for the purpose that we all have.


And I hope that first and foremost, we all are patriotic Americans who when

times are tough, we will focus in on what`s important and do our jobs.


O`DONNELL: President Trump couldn`t do what he does without the staff who

does it for him. Don McGahn showed that. He ordered Don McGahn to fire

Robert Mueller and Don McGahn didn`t do it. This Director of National

Intelligence has done what the President wants.


He could have gone the other way. McGuire could have gone the other way.

The Justice Department has done what the President wants on this whistle

blower report. What should be the penalties for the people who don`t

approach this work the way Don McGahn did and refuse to do the illegal

things that the President wants them to do.


BOOKER: Well, let me just say number one, if you`re breaking the law,

you`re breaking the law and you should be held accountable and I think that

that is something that we should be looking at at every step of the way of

holding people accountable because every time we don`t, we`re creating a

perverse incentive in the future for people to act in this way.


But I just want to say and I`ve seen this, I`ve been saying this from the

beginning of the Trump administration. Those people who are enabling him,

who assuage their conscious, witness the kind of things he does on a

regular basis and we`ve heard the reports.


I`ve heard your reporting. The kind of things this person does to do moral

vandalism in that office, those people that are enabling him, there is a

cold, frigid place under the historical eye. They will go down in history

as despicable actors who have enabled one of the President`s who is doing

some of the worst things to that office in the entire history of our



The truth comes out. The truth about Donald Trump will come out. That is

why we will defeat him and 2020 if he`s still there. But these people, I

have a - I have a very low regard for people who know he`s doing wrong but

still enable him, defend him and in many ways empower him to remain in that



O`DONNELL: Senator Cory Booker, thank you very much for joining us tonight.

Please come back. We can - on a segment we can devote to your actual



BOOKER: I appreciate that.


O`DONNELL: Admissions and policies, we`re going to try to get one of those

segments in one of these nights when we–


BOOKER: This is what`s important and thank you very much.


O`DONNELL: Thank you very much, Senator. So who was listening in on

President Trump`s phone call that is now the subject of a whistle blower

complaint. How many people were listening in? Who took notes? Was it taped?

The man who knows what the answers to all of those questions should be is

Larry Pfeiffer who used to listen in on President Barack Obama`s phone

calls with foreign leaders and Larry Pfeiffer will be our next guest.




O`DONNELL: President Trump says that tomorrow he will release the

“complete, fully declassified and unredacted transcript of his conversation

with President Zelensky of Ukraine.” When President Richard Nixon released

transcripts of White House conversations, they turned out to be grossly



What will be released tomorrow? Will it be accurate? Will it be a

transcript? Or will it just be notes about the conversation? Or will it be

just a summary of the conversation? The White House Situation Room monitors

Presidential conversations with other Presidents and Prime Ministers and

dictators around the world.


Larry Pfeiffer used to run the Situation Room during the Obama

administration and he used to listen in on those phone calls with President

Obama and prepare the written records of those phone calls. Larry Pfeiffer

is exactly who we want to hear from tonight about what we should expect



Larry Pfeiffer will join us and enlighten us after this final break.






REP. ADAM SCHIFF (D-CA): We cannot trust the administration with respect to

anything that it produces and so there are a couple issues here. There is

the issue of whether whatever transcript they provide is the only

transcript of this conversation, whether there are other read outs of that

conversation and whether they cherry picked and picked the best to read out

of the conversation.




O`DONNELL: Joining our discussion now is Larry Pfeiffer. He was the Chief

of Staff to the Director of the CIA during the Bush administration from

2006 to 2009 and then he went on to become the Director of the White House

Situation Room for President Obama.


He listened in on President Obama`s phone calls with heads of state and

prepared the written records of those phone calls. Larry Pfeiffer, thank

you very much for joining us tonight. You just heard what Adam Schiff said.

What would you - how would you advise Adam Schiff in evaluating what is

released tomorrow? What can we expect to be released tomorrow?



Lawrence. Situation room helps set up, monitor and writes up the

transcripts of the phone calls. At least historically, that`s what they`ve

done. I`m not from the Trump White House. I can`t say whether they`ve

changed the procedures since I was there.


The transcripts are finalized by a member of the NSC directorate staff,

responsible for the call. In this case it would be the European

directorate. That becomes the final transcript. If that is what is

released, I`d like to think that it will be as accurate a transcript as

they could have.


If it appears to be anything less than accurate, there are those original

rough transcripts that were done by the Situation Room staff.


O`DONNELL: So there are no recordings of the phone calls?


PFEIFFER: Not unless again procedures have changed in the last few years

but when I arrived, that was one of my first questions when I heard this

elaborate monitoring procedure and transcription procedure we had.


My first question was why aren`t we just recording these calls and I was

told that, that was something that we had stopped doing in the mid 1970s so

I didn`t push the issue after that.


O`DONNELL: Yes, after the Nixon tapes brought down the President.


PFEIFFER: Correct.


O`DONNELL: So these are hand written notes that people are - how many

people are taking the notes as the speakers are talking?


PFEIFFER: So normally on a good day, I would assign three people to listen

on the phone call, they sit there with their keyboard with headphones on

and they would just hammer away at those keys.


Those three individuals at the end of the call get together, they compare

the transcripts because one person may have heard something, the other

person didn`t or understood something the other person didn`t. They would

then create a final working transcript that would be provided then as I

mentioned before to the Directorate, somebody who probably has a little

deeper expertise on the topics being discussed to make final corrections.


The final memo that would be issued, it could vary from call to call, it

could vary from administration to administration but it could be everything

from a verbatim transcript, much like what we had produced from the

situation room, all the way to as you mentioned before a summary, sometimes

even a short summary, two or three sentence summary of the phone call. It

just varied.


O`DONNELL: Do other countries record the phone call and do we know if the

other country is recording the phone call.


PFEIFFER: We don`t specifically know. We don`t ask. I do not know of one

instance when a foreign head of state recorded a phone call much to our

surprise but we generally expect that it`s possible. So it could - it could

be done but it`s hard for me to say with certainty.


O`DONNELL: When you see what`s released tomorrow, will you be able to make

a judgment about the likely accuracy of what you`re looking at?


PFEIFFER: You know if - if one reads it and it sounds like people talking

with the starts and stops and the changes in direction in a conversation,

just those natural pauses like I`m doing right now as I talk to you, I

think - I think one could one could surmise it`s pretty darn accurate.


I think if it reads more like elegant prose, it`s probably something that`s

been massaged a bit and I think if it`s just you know, short summations, if

I`m - if I`m receiving this transcript, I`d probably want to see more than

just a summary.


O`DONNELL: Larry Pfeiffer, can`t wait to get your reaction to what is

released tomorrow. Thank you very much for joining us tonight. We really

appreciate it.


PFEIFFER: Thank you Lawrence.


O`DONNELL: That is tonight`s Last Word. The Eleventh Hour with Brian

Williams starts now.


ANNOUNCER: Breaking tonight, the House Speaker wheels the power of the









Copyright 2019 ASC Services II Media, LLC.  All materials herein are

protected by United States copyright law and may not be reproduced,

distributed, transmitted, displayed, published or broadcast without the

prior written permission of ASC Services II Media, LLC. You may not alter

or remove any trademark, copyright or other notice from copies of the