Trump’s Comms with Foreign Leader. TRANSCRIPT: 9/18/19, The Last Word w/ Lawrence O’Donnell.

Ellen Nakashima, Ned Price, Nicholas Kristof, Ben Rhodes


Date: September 18, 2019

Guest: Ellen Nakashima, Ned Price, Nicholas Kristof, Ben Rhodes


LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, MSNBC HOST:   Good evening, Rachel.


And we`re going to be joined by Ellen Nakashima.  She`s one of the three

“The Washington Post” reporters, as you know, who broke this story tonight. 

But before you go, I want to read to you the law on the inspector general. 

You were discussing this in the last hour as the news was breaking during

your hour.  I managed to get my hands on the law. 


It is fascinating.  Because there is nothing I see in the law that supports

the withholding of this inspector general`s report. 




O`DONNELL:  It says, on receipt of a transmittal form, the inspector

general under sub paragraph B – so when the inspector general sends this

on to the director, the director shall within seven calendar days of such

receipt forward such transmittal to the Intelligence Committees together

with any comments the director considers appropriate. 


It`s very clear there, Rachel.  It does not say the director can only

forward this if it involves a person under the director`s jurisdiction. 

And that seems to be the sticking point that the director is clinging to at

this point. 


MADDOW:  Or that the director can only forward this if it doesn`t implicate

executive branch privilege in some way, which seems to be the other thing

they`re claiming. 


O`DONNELL:  Not a word about that. 


MADDOW:  One thing, Lawrence, I would be very interested in figuring out is

whether – remember the way this happened, went from the whistleblower to

the inspector general for the intelligence community.  The inspector

general gave it to the DNI.  DNI gave it to congress.  Where it got stuck

is that last point. 


What I want to know is if the inspector general who is going to testifying

to the Intelligence Committee tomorrow, can the inspector general hand it

over given that the DNI is weirdly defying the law and sitting on it? 


O`DONNELL:  In my reading of the law, the inspector general cannot but

listen to who can.  There`s more to this law. 


It says: If the inspector general does not transmit or does not transmit in

an accurate form the complaint or information described in sub paragraph B,

the employee subject to the clause may submit the complaint or information

to Congress by contacting either or both of the Intelligence Committees. 

Directly, the employee may contact the Intelligence Committees directly as

described in clause one only if the employee before making such a contact

furnishes to the director, through the inspector general, a statement of

the employee`s complaint or information and notice of the employee`s



MADDOW:  Wow. 


O`DONNELL:  To contact the intelligence committees directly.  This employee

has already fulfilled some of these conditions.  The only further condition

the employee would need to fulfill is tell the director, I`m going to

contact the committees directly. 


MADDOW:  And it just gives me chills to hear you say that.  If you think

about this whistle blower, whoever he or she is, they`re in a position

right now where they`ve got something that`s incredibly sensitive.  They

went with it immediately through channels the way they are supposed to. 

It`s not being handled through channels the way it is supposed to be

handled by a DNI who is an acting DNI just appointed by the president who

is saying as he is sitting on it, yes, basically I`m doing this to protect

the president. 


This involves privileged material.  This involves somebody outside the

intelligence community.  He is all but saying I am trying to protect the



Now, “The Washington Post” is reporting yes, this is protecting the

president.  So this person is facing the prospect of having channels not

work, the channels that are supposed to protect his or her anonymity.  It`s

supposed to protect him or her from retribution for having done the right

whistleblower thing.  Now, they have to think about with the system not

working, can I risk going to the committee itself knowing who is on the

committee on both sides of that aisle? 


O`DONNELL:  Let me read you, Rachel, before you go, this preface to the

requirements of this law.  Written into the law, it says, Congress as a

coequal branch of government is empowered by the Constitution to serve as a

check on the executive branch.  In that capacity, it has a need to know of

allegations of wrongdoing within the executive branch, including

allegations of wrongdoing in the intelligence community. 


This law specifies its purpose very, very clearly.  It does not leave any

of the exceptions to this law that the director so far seems to be



MADDOW:  Yes, I mean, for the DNI to be consulting with the Justice

Department on this.  The Department of Justice is completely outside of

this process.  Apparently, according to Schiff, they are not denying they

may have consulted with the White House about this which is, of course, is

totally inappropriate, given the potential, given the fact that

whistleblowers are supposed to be protected in this kind of circumstance. 


I mean, the acting DNI here is somebody who obviously will never be

confirmed as the actual DNI.  It is somebody who is very much breaking the

law or I shouldn`t say breaking the law – appears to be breaking the law

in the way that he is treating this.  But I`m just thinking about the

personal drama for whoever this whistleblower is for what they`ve been

through already and what they`re seeing happening right now with the system

that is supposed to protect them and the patriotic confrontation they must

be having with their own fear right now in terms of knowing what they`ve

got and how important it is.  How it`s being mishandled and how much

they`re at risk. 


O`DONNELL:  We`re just going to continue with the breaking news coverage

that you started in the last hour. 


MADDOW:  All right.  Thanks, Lawrence. 


O`DONNELL:  Thank you very much, Rachel. 


We`re joined by one of the reporters who broke this story for “The

Washington Post,” Ellen Nakashima, who`s a national security reporter for

“The Washington Post.”


Ellen, thank you very much for joining us tonight with this breaking news. 


The – one of the things I noticed in the law, is that it says the

inspector general has a duty to communicate with the employee.  The

inspector general has a duty to let the employee know what has happened. 

So it`s entirely possible that the employee knows what has happened before

reading it in your newspaper tonight. 



possible.  We did contact the whistle blower`s attorney who had no comment,

you know, on the story so we assume that certainly by now the whistleblower



O`DONNELL:  And what is – what is the reporting that has narrowed this

down to the information appears to involve the president of the United



NAKASHIMA:  Well, first of all, if you take a look at the letters that were

exchanged by the office of the director of national intelligence and the

general counsel there, Jason Klitenic, and the Hill, as well as letters

from Adam Schiff, the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, back to

DNI, Joseph Maguire, it`s quite clear they point the way the letters

specify that the – first of all, the whistleblower was someone – is

someone inside the intelligence community, reporting conduct by someone who

is not inside the intelligence community.  And that conduct could

potentially involve privileged communications. 


That narrows it down already, pretty much to there is really only one

entity in the U.S. government outside the intelligence community that might

have access to such sensitive information and claim privilege over it and

that`s the White House.  At that point, a limited set of people at the

White House. 


Then from there, we`ve got sources.  We spoke to including two former U.S.

officials who confirmed for us that the complaint involved a phone call or

involved a communication that Trump had with a foreign leader and a promise

of some sort, and one of those former officials said it was a phone call in

recent months. 


O`DONNELL:  And the – you have reporting in your story that indicates that

the acting Director of National Intelligence Maguire is torn, is not

pleased with what the Justice Department has done in its intervention in

this case and is not pleased with what the White House has done. 


NAKASHIMA:  Well, what we know, what we`re hearing, first of all, the

acting DNI Joseph Maguire is not someone who was angling for this job.  He

was kind of put into it after DNI Daniel Coats was, you know, basically

asked to resign.  And then his deputy Sue Gordon was also sort of asked to



And so, there was a vacancy.  He got tapped.  It wasn`t something he was

looking for.  He`s not a career intelligence person who came up through the

spy ranks, let`s say. 


And here he is, new to the job, and he is thrust into this very politically

perilous situation, and this is not something – he`s not a lawyer, very

much not familiar with this issue.  And we`re told he`s not, you know, he

feels sort of caught between his competing instincts. 


O`DONNELL:  I want to quote your reporting on why he has not complied with

what appears to be the requirements of the law.  Your reporting says the

DNI has asserted that lawyers determined there was no notification

requirement because the whistleblower complaint did not constitute an

urgent concern that was within the responsibility and authority of

Maguire`s office. 


Do you have any indication where they got, what was the basis of that legal

opinion?  Because I can`t find anything in the law that that would point



NAKASHIMA:  If you look at the statute, there is a line where they define

urgent concern, and it, you know, urgent concern involves a flagrant abuse

of power, a problem relating to an intelligence activity that is, dot, dot,

dot, within the responsibility and authority of the director of national

intelligence.  And I believe that`s where they got that.  However, it seems

apparent to me that the I.G., the inspector general for the intelligence

community determined that this was an intelligence community activity

within the purview of the ODNI and, therefore, this was something that, you

know, he could take a look at. 


O`DONNELL:  Did your sources have any indication of who the president could

have been in contact with? 


NAKASHIMA:  We did not get any indication or confirmation of that and

that`s something we`re continuing to report on. 


O`DONNELL:  Ellen Nakashima, please stay with us. 


I want to turn to Ben Rhodes.  He`s a former national security adviser to

President Obama.  And Ned Price is also with us, a former CIA analyst and a

former senior director for President Obama`s National Security Council. 

They`re both MSNBC contributors.  Also with us, Nicholas Kristof, Pulitzer

Prize-winning columnist for “The New York Times” who has written

extensively on foreign affairs. 


Ben Rhodes, your reaction to this breaking news? 



it`s astonishing.  I`ve never heard of anything like this.  And it should

be deeply troubling to Americans that essentially somebody in the

intelligence community seems to think that the president of the United

States is a danger to American national security. 


And when I think about what this could be, I mean, the only things I can

consider are, one, you had President Trump actually revealing something

sensitive about U.S. intelligence collection to a foreign leader, which we

know by the way he has done already in a meeting with the Russians early in

his administration.  Or secondly, he was taking some action that was

profoundly not in the interest of the United States, making some promise to

act against perhaps the will of legislation or current U.S. foreign policy. 

Whatever this was, was of such gravity this person felt compelled to come



The other thing I think we have to confront here, Lawrence, is a lot of

people in this administration know things that President Trump has done or

is doing that are deeply worrying.  I`d like to see more of them come

forward.  We`ve seen people leave and write books and we`ve seen people

leave and kind of make vague insinuations that there are troubling things

happening at the White House. 


This is a matter of national security.  This is something that could be

putting the interest of the United States gravely at risk.  And we see the

administration acting in ways that go against the law to try to repress

that information. 


This is a time to get the sun light on this information so that the

American people can make a judgment.  And this is why by the way you have

intelligence committees.  You know this from having worked on the Hill. 

They were set up precisely so that you had a venue for oversight because in

the past when you didn`t have intelligence committees, you had huge abuses

of power by the executive branch.  This is precisely why you have

congressional oversight of intelligence. 


O`DONNELL:  I want to read that section of the law that Ellen was just

talking about, the definition of urgent concern.  The employee who filed

this, this whistleblower report, had to have what the law calls an urgent

concern.  The law is very specific that an urgent concern does not mean a

difference of opinion about policy. 


Here is how the law defines urgent concern.  The term urgent concern means,

any of the following.  One, a serious or flagrant problem, abuse,

violation, or law or executive order or deficiency relating to the funding

administration or operations of an intelligence activity involving

classified information but does not include differences of opinions

concerning public policy matters. 


Ned Price, I want your reaction to this story as we know it at this hour. 


NED PRICE, FORMER CIA ANALYST:  You know, Lawrence, I think there is a

maxim we can attach to this administration.  It could always be worse.  It

could always get worse. 


I`m actually not sure that`s true in this case, however.  I will be honest

that when I started to hear about this story, these rumblings, I had

assumed that there was a whistle blower within the intelligence community

who was ready to tell superiors about President Trump or someone in his

administration, severe mishandling of classified information.  After all,

this is a president who in recent weeks Ellen has tweeted highly classified

satellite imagery, has leaked information to the Russians in the Oval

Office, has detailed the locations of nuclear submarines to foreign



But I certainly don`t think that`s what the case is.  That would be

recklessness.  That would be carelessness.  I think this could be something

closer to betrayal given what we have learned from “The Washington Post”

this evening. 


It`s always dangerous to speculate on the origins of potential wrongdoing

during this administration because there is so much of it to go around, but

let me offer one theory that I think comports with the second line of

thought that Ben put forward.  I`ve always been curious about a July 31st

phone call between President Trump and Vladimir Putin.  This is a phone

call that President Trump, himself, initiated July 31st, the dog days of



The White House after the Kremlin did put out a read out that said they

discussed potential American assistance to ongoing Siberian wildfires. 

That raised my curiosity even more.  President Trump was barely lifting a

finger to fight ongoing wildfires in California. 


The Kremlin read out, however, added something quite different.  It said,

quote, that the Russian president viewed Trump`s offer as a sign that fully

fledged bilateral relations could be restored in the future.  It seemed

that the Russians seemed to have an indication that President Trump had

pledged or promised a restoration of diplomatic relations, of bilateral

relations in a way that the White House certainly didn`t allude to in its

read out.  This was precisely two weeks before the whistleblower filed this



O`DONNELL:  Yes.  And, Nick, the whistle blower as Ellen reports in “The

Washington Post” tonight, the whistleblower`s report was filed on August

12th.  And so, Ned Price and others now are staring at everything we can

find publicly about Trump communications with foreign leaders in proximity

to August 12th, prior to August 12th. 


NICHOLAS KRISTOF, THE NEW YORK TIMES:  And, indeed, that July 31st phone

call with President Putin does stand out for obvious reasons. 


Look, the number of people within the intelligence community who would be

privy to the contents of that call is fairly limited.  These are senior

people with presumably good judgment who are not going to risk their

careers, make a mountain out of a molehill out of something that indeed

does not rise to that. 


The inspector general in turn is also not going to elevate something that

is not a serious case.  And that suggests this does not involve –


O`DONNELL:  Stop on that for a second.  There are two thresholds.  An

employee, serious level employee who would have access to this information

is seriously troubled, thinks this is an urgent matter as the law refers to



An urgent concern.  Has an urgent concern.  Brings that urgent concern to

the inspector general. 


The inspector general believes this is an urgent concern.  If the inspector

general doesn`t think it`s an urgent concern, just thinks it is an opinion

matter, the inspector general doesn`t have to do anything.  The inspector

general brings it to the director because it clears all of those



KRISTOF:  I mean, you could also argue that the DNI finds it a sufficiently

big concern that he doesn`t want to follow the law and share it with the

intelligence committee and would not do that for something light.  But, I

mean, obviously, we are speculating there. 


But, yes, this is – we`re all groping.  We don`t know.  But there has to

be concern about that July 31st call.  The notion this conveys a promise of

some kind, something that is deeply alarming within, among two key people

in the intelligence community, that also raises questions about Putin. 


And, you know, I guess more broadly, I mean, like Ben, I think back to the

early 1970s when we had this series of scandals involving the White House

abuse of the intelligence community and the Frank Church hearings that

aired that and led to a restructuring of the intelligence community,

professionalization, deep commitment that the intelligence community is not

going to be used for political purposes by the White House. 


And now, we find that jeopardized both in what the whistleblower reports

and secondly in the refusal it seems of the DNI to follow the law and share

that information as obliged with Congress with oversight. 


O`DONNELL:  Ellen, did your reporting indicate where the first break was

pumped on the transmittal of this?  The employee is working according to

the book, going to the inspector general.  The inspector general works

according to the book, according to exactly what we`re reading in this law

and passes it on to the director. 


Do we know who, whether the director, himself, the Acting Director Maguire

or someone else around the director was the person who said, wait, don`t do

what you would routinely do with this particular whistle-blowing report? 


NAKASHIMA:  We don`t know for sure but we do know is that the ODNI

consulted the Justice Department, presumably the office of legal counsel

and at some point got, you know, they were – they got some legal advice

that said, that resulted in that interpretation you had read earlier about

urgent concern and how the ODNI determined that this complaint did not rise

to that level because it was a matter that was outside of his area of

responsibility and, as such, was not going to transmit the complaint to

Congress.  The DNI sent a communication, a letter back to Congress

notifying them of that.  That was last Friday the 13th. 


And at that point, Adam Schiff, who had already sent a letter over saying

I`m expecting to get a copy of this complaint said, all right.  Enough is

enough.  And having warned Maguire that he was going to compel this

complaint through a subpoena, he issued a subpoena on Friday. 


O`DONNELL:  Ellen, I just want to offer you that there is a further support

for your reporting tonight by NBC News, confirming your reporting.  I just

want to read to you exactly what NBC News has on this at this hour. 


A whistleblower complaint by an intelligence officer that the Trump

administration is withholding from Congress involves a phone conversation

had by the president, a former U.S. intelligence official familiar with the

matter confirmed to NBC News tonight.  Goes on to say “The Washington Post”

citing two former U.S. officials familiar with the matter reported this

evening that the complaint was by an intelligence official who was troubled

by a promise Trump made in a phone call with a foreign leader. 


And so, Ellen, NBC News already confirming portions of your reporting

tonight and obviously other news organizations will be working on this. 


When we think about former Trump officials, this, your breaking news comes

on a day when John Bolton was in New York City at a private luncheon

criticizing the president, criticizing the president`s policies with both

Iran and North Korea, and that`s just the most recent former official who

was it should be noted on the job in August when this happened. 


Ellen, is it possible that former officials who were – who had already

left the administration would know about this information even though it

was developed after they – if they left the administration before August

when this whistle blower report occurred? 


NAKASHIMA:  It`s possible, sure. 


O`DONNELL:  Ben, talk about what the information would be.  How likely is

it that this whistleblower would actually have heard a presidential phone



RHODES:  It`s unlikely.  There are transcripts made of every presidential

phone call.  Those are usually disseminated to people in the government who

have some need to know.  So if they`re very senior people in the

intelligence community who work on Russia or the leadership in the

intelligence community, they might in some circumstances get transcripts of

White House phone calls. 


The Trump administration took steps to crack down on the circulation of

some of those calls when there were some leaks of some embarrassing phone

calls that President Trump had.  But it`s still possible that a transcript

could have made its way over to the intelligence community or of course

without discussing, you know, sources and methods, we should presume that

our government also tries to monitor what other governments might be

reporting out about certain information.  And so, you could presumably get

at it that way. 


O`DONNELL:  There are two different levels here. 


Let me go to Ned Price on this. 


Ned, let`s go to the level of this could be a person in the administration

who`s actually read the transcript of the phone call.  How high level a

player in the intelligence community does that have to be? 


PRICE:  Well, Lawrence, that was actually my theory from reading the tea

leaves and hearing scuttlebutt, my understanding is that this whistleblower

recently left the national security council where he or she was detailed

from the intelligence community.  So, this person still was an intelligence

community employee but was actually resident on the White House complex. 


And so, if that is in fact the case, it is quite possible that he or she

could have either sat in as a note taker on a phone call or could have seen

a transcript.  The Trump administration, has been alluded to, did cut down

but you still have to have permanent records in order for the read out to

be transmitted both within the National Security Council and through the

seniors throughout the administration.  So, it is possible. 


O`DONNELL:  Ned, you use the phrase, the term detailee.  Just explain to

the audience how that works because there are employees in the federal

government at various levels including for example in the Agriculture

Department, who get detailed to say the Senate Agriculture Committee.  And

those people have no political loyalty to the politicians who are working

on those committees.  Their loyalty tends to be to solid information that

they`re supposed to be delivering and helping the committee or in this case

the White House with. 


So this would be an intelligence detailee working on the National Security

Council who`s not in a political appointment of, say, John Bolton, or

others who would be in that kind of room. 


PRICE:  That`s right.  Let`s stick with the National Security Council staff

as the example here.  During the final years of the Obama administration,

the National Security Council staff had about 180 professionals who were

focused on policy areas.  Of those 180 individuals, 90 percent of them were

so-called detailees. 


That is to say they were not employed by the White House.  They were not

employed by the executive office of the president.  They remained employed

by the Department of State, by the Federal Bureau of Investigation.  In my

case I was the detailee from the Central Intelligence Agency. 


So, I was working in the White House day to day.  But my performance

evaluations were written by the CIA.  I was paid by the CIA.  And,

ultimately, the CIA had say over my professional future. 


Now, it is my understanding that this person, and it would certainly make

sense, this person did not come into the White House as part of the Trump

transition team, was not part of the Trump campaign.  By everything we know

about this person, he or she went through the proper protocols.  This

person is doing his or her utmost to protect classified information, hasn`t

run to the media. 


This person seems to be a true patriot who is trying to play by the rule

books and at the same time trying to alert the proper authorities that the

house may well be on fire. 


O`DONNELL:  Ellen Nakashima, the Inspector General Michael Atkinson is

testifying to the House Intelligence Committee tomorrow morning 9:00 a.m.

closed door session.  What do you expect the inspector general to say in

that testimony? 


NAKASHIMA:  Well, I expect he will detail the process he went through to

determine that the complaint was credible and, you know, was an

intelligence activity of flagrant and serious abuse or problem and that it

was of urgent concern and explain the steps he took to raise this issue to

the DNI`s attention.  And then, of course, when the DNI did not transmit

the complaint to Congress within seven days as required by law, he went to

Congress and told Congress that he had a whistleblower complaint and it had

not been transmitted. 


O`DONNELL:  What do you expect him to say when he is asked as he will be,

what does the complaint say? 


NAKASHIMA:  I do not know how much he will actually divulge of the

complaint, because I do not know whether in fact he will – he has been

ordered not to, you know, to hand over the complaint or divulge its

contents.  So we`ll have to find out – we`ll try to find out tomorrow. 


O`DONNELL:  Ellen Nakashima of “The Washington Post”, thank you very much

for your important reporting tonight and finding the time to join us.  We

really appreciate you joining us here on the show. 


And we`re going to be right back after a break with more, coming up. 




O`DONNELL: We`re back with Ned Price, Ben Rhodes, and Nicholas Kristoff

covering the breaking news first from The Washington Post tonight confirmed

by NBC news that a whistle blower complaint from the Intelligence community

involves President Trump`s communications with a foreign leader.


That is according to The Washington Post reporting and that whistle

blower`s complaint is supposed to be forwarded to the House Intelligence

Committee, the Senate Intelligence committee. The Trump administration is

refusing to do that. The Chairman of the House Intelligence Committee Adam

Schiff has issued this statement tonight, “The intelligence community

Inspector General has agreed to appear before the House Intelligence

committee for a briefing on the handling of the whistle blower complaint

tomorrow morning September 19 in a close session at 9 AM.


The Acting Director of National Intelligence Joseph McGuire has agreed to

testify in an open session before the committee next Thursday, September 26

at 9 AM. The Intelligence Community Inspector General determined that this

complaint is both credible and urgent and that it should be transmitted to

Congress under the clear letter of the law.


The committee places the highest importance on the protection of

whistleblowers and their complaints to Congress. Ben Rhodes, the House

Intelligence Committee has had many important hearings. It`s hard to think

of one more important than tomorrow at 9:00 AM.



again, this is their purpose and the reason it`s so important Lawrence is,

we have seen this administration already try with this President tried to

weaponize the instruments under his control in the U.S. government.


Whether that`s you know, Attorney General Barr seeking to mischaracterized

the Mueller report, whether that`s making insinuations that he wants

Ukraine to investigate his political opponents and Joe Biden. We`re heading

into an election year with a President of United States who appears

perfectly willing to weaponize the Department of Justice, the Intelligence

Community, any aspect of the federal government in service of his own

political interest.


That to me is a serious crisis for our democracy and in that type of

circumstance the only check that we have on rampant abuse of power by this

President is if there are whistleblowers like this who go through the

procedures and stand up and do their patriotic duty and if you have

Congress exercise its oversight role.


We also know look, if this was Putin, we are heading into an election year.

President Trump wants support from Russia I would presume once again as he

benefited from last time. Does that inform why he might have been making

certain promises to if it was Vladimir Putin.


So all this begs for aggressive congressional oversight to get to the

bottom of this because without that checked, we`re living under a President

who does not respect any democratic norms and would do anything to either

suppress information from getting out that could be embarrassing to him or

damaging to him.


And again could try to use the very powerful instruments of the U.S.

government to his own political advantage.


O`DONNELL: This is one of those laws that reads more simply than most. It`s

like the law that allows the House Ways and Means Committee and the Senate

Finance Committee to obtain the President`s tax returns or any tax return

in fact.


It says - that law says that the IRS shall furnish the tax returns. We have

an echo of that here on the whistleblower report that`s sent by the

Inspector General to the Director. The law then says the director shall

within 7 calendar days of such receipt forward such transmittal to the

Intelligence Committees together with any comments the Director considers



There`s no buts, there`s no exceptions, there`s no nothing and this - this

director decided to check with William Barr`s Justice Department and on the

next page of this law, I think we can see what William Barr`s Justice

Department has decided here because there`s a very, very important line in

this law.


Adam Schiff has indicated they`re willing to sue just as the House and

other committees are suing to try to get the law enforced. There`s a

problem trying to do that here because this law specifies an action taken

by the Director or the Inspector General under this paragraph shall not be

subject to judicial review.


Now this is the kind of thing, Ben as you know and Ned, as you know exists

- tends to exist in national security law. It tends not to exist elsewhere

in the law. This very specifically says you cannot sue. Ned Price, it says

Adam Schiff cannot go to court to try to sue to get this and I imagine that

when the Barr Justice Department read that line, they took it to mean they

could do anything they wanted.


NED PRICE, FORMER CIA ANALYST: Well, I think that`s right. I think we

really have two culprits here unfortunately. One clearly is a Barr Justice

Department. It`s Bill Barr at it again. It pains me to say however though

that I don`t think the Office of the Director of National Intelligence has

been operating in good faith here.


I think we have to compare what we learned tonight from this Washington

Post report and now NBC news reporting to what we saw the General Counsel

of the Director of National Intelligence put out last night. The General

Counsel wrote a letter to Adam Schiff saying, they disagreed essentially

with the Inspector General`s conclusion that this was a matter of urgent



If what both the Washington Post and NBC news now are reporting is

accurate, it is impossible to think that they could be operating in good

faith and not believe this is a matter of urgent concern. Look, I think

Lawrence, this is bigger than anything the single subpoena fight, it`s

bigger than any single whistleblower.


This is really about our democracy and I think as Nick alluded to earlier,

we have a secret intelligence apparatus operating within our democratic

context under a very clear understanding.


There will be rigorous oversight in return for the extraordinary

capabilities and authorities we bestow to that intelligence apparatus.

There`s oversight from the executive branch, from the White House, from the

DOJ`s supposedly at least. There`s oversight from the Judicial branch, from

the foreign intelligence surveillance court and there is oversight from

Congress, the most important I think level of oversight from Congress.


But what the Office of the Director of National Intelligence seems to with

the support of the Justice Department seems to be doing is to thumb its

nose at that oversight. It`s not good for the Intelligence Community. It is

not good for Congress and it is corrosive for our democracy.


O`DONNELL: And - it`s a great point that Ned just made Nick, and the law

does not provide anywhere for anyone to second guess the Inspector General.

There is no one who can enter into the realm of this law and say we

disagree with the Inspector General`s evaluation of the urgency of this.

There`s no provision for that.



bombshell of defiance of oversight and of the law on top of a separate

bombshell about an allegation of fundamental and urgent misconduct but you

know, in a sense the backdrop of this is the - I mean, I think historians

are going to look back and see the Trump administration as a President

trying to - President out of control and trying to undermine institutions

and norms throughout the government.


And in fact those institutions have often tried to push back whether it`s

courts, lawyers and consistently the media and the Intelligence community

and you know, I disagree with Dan Coats on many things but when he was DNI,

he did attempt to cherish some independence there and I fear that when

those historians look back, they will see this as a moment when one crucial

institution, one pillar that we need crumbled and did not fulfil its task.


O`DONNELL: This line in the law saying that an action taken by the Director

Inspector General under this paragraph shall not be subject to judicial

review was not put there so that the administration could think therefore

we do not have to obey this law.


It was put there to protect national security interests but with the Trump

administration and our Justice Department finding that sentence, I think

that explains why we`re here tonight. We have to squeeze in a break here.

Ned Price, thank you very much for joining us tonight with your important

insights, very helpful. Thank you Ned. Really appreciate it and when we

come back, we have a lot more to cover. We will be right back.




O`DONNELL: Here is Donald Trump becoming the first President in history to

be asked seriously is he`s going to attack Iran with nuclear weapons.





you know Feller, there are many options. And there`s the ultimate option

and there are options a lot less than that. And we`ll see. We are in a very

powerful position. Right now we`re in a very, very powerful position.


REPORTER: When you say the ultimate option, are you talking about a nuclear



TRUMP: No, I`d say the ultimate option meaning go in war. No, I`m not

talking about - I`m not talking about that ultimate option. No.




O`DONNELL: Ben Rhodes and Nicholas Kristoff are back with us. So Ben, he

has ruled out nuclear war.


RHODES: I see a tiny bit better. Lawrence, yes I mean but look, this whole

thing - why are we even talking about whether we go to war on behalf of an

attack on Saudi Arabia`s oil infrastructure and the only reason that he

seems to care so much about it is as he said, the Saudis pay cash and we

also know they paid a lot of cash in the Trump properties.


It would be madness to go to war with Iran right now and set the entire

Middle East on fire. It would be totally unnecessary. He is created this

crisis by pulling out of Iran nuclear deal, piling on sanctions, threat

after threat, giving the Saudis a blank check for their war in Yemen which

is causing a famine of catastrophic proportions.


And here we are and he doesn`t have any answers. All he has is bombastic

language and threats like that. Meanwhile the actual problem is getting

worse. Iran is resuming its nuclear weapons - potential nuclear weapons

capability. Iran is being much more emboldened in the region.


All the things he said wouldn`t happen if he pulled out of the Iran deal

have now happened and he doesn`t know what to do about it.


O`DONNELL: Nick, your reaction to the President`s handling of the situation

so far.


KRISTOFF: Well, there is indeed a real problem both with violation of the

nuclear accord with that attacking shipping etcetera but this is as Ben

suggests, a problem that the President created by leaving the nuclear

accord and my fear is that you know - we are already in bed with Saudi



Look, Saudi Arabia has a fighter planes, they have their aircraft. If they

want to strike something, they`ve been attacked by Iran you know, they can

do it but we should not be - this is not our fight and we should not be -

you know, it`s almost a year since they murdered my friend Jamal Khashoggi

and I don`t want American troops at risk for the regime that murdered and

dismembered a Washington Post columnist.


O`DONNELL: We`re going to take a break here. Ben Rhodes, Nick Kristoff,

thank you both very much for joining us during this breaking news. Really

appreciate it. When we come back, we have new reporting tonight about what

Speaker Nancy Pelosi wants to happen to Corey Lewandowski. She thinks he

was in contempt of Congress.




O`DONNELL: Speaker Nancy Pelosi says that Corey Lewandowski should be held

in contempt of Congress for his testimony. The House Judiciary Committee

yesterday according to a report in Politico tonight. Pelosi told Democrats

during a private meeting on Wednesday that Democrats should have held

Lewandowski in contempt then and there according to multiple sources in the



By then and there, the Speaker presumably meant in the middle of the chaos

that occurred during Democrats questioning of Lewandowski.




REP. DAVID CICILLINE (D-RI): Mr. Chairman, this witness continues to

obstruct the work of this committee by refusing to answer questions. He`s

been ordered to do so by you. I ask you adjudge him in contempt in these





O`DONNELL: When the committee`s professional counsel Barry Berke took over

the question at the end of the hearing, he showed everyone in the room how

to keep that hearing under control and expose Corey Lewandowski`s repeated

lies. Washington Post columnist Jennifer Rubin said Barry Berke should ask

all of the questions next time.


Jennifer Rubin and Joyce Vance join us next.




O`DONNELL: Here is but a small sample of Barry Berke, the new counsel for

the House Judiciary Committee questioning Corey Lewandowski yesterday.



because you wanted to protect the President?



my recollection.


BERKE: Sir, did you deny it because you wanted to protect yourself?


LEWANDOWSKI: Not to the best of my recollection, Mr. Berke.


BERKE: Why did you lie on national television Sir about the President

giving a message to the Attorney General about the Special Counsel`s



LEWANDOWSKI: I don`t recall that particular day and my mind set the time so

I couldn`t answer that.




O`DONNELL: Joining us now is Jennifer Rubin, opinion writer for the

Washington Post and MSNBC contributor and Joyce Vance, a former federal

prosecutor and MSNBC legal analyst. And Joyce, because I have enough

experience with congressional committees, I was multi-tasking while the

members of the committee were asking questions because I knew you could use

a very small amount of your brain power to take in that section of it but I

was eagerly waiting for the Special Counsel to ask questions and then I was

glued to Barry Berke for 30 minutes. What was your reaction?


JOYCE VANCE, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Exactly the same as yours Lawrence.

Lawrence, I think we all were pretty glued because Barry Berke, an

experienced lawyer gave a textbook cross examination forcing Corey

Lewandowski to acknowledge that he had lied and perhaps more importantly,

that the lie was an effort to cover up this incident of obstruction that`s

detailed in the Mueller report where Trump asked him to deliver the message

to Sessions that the Mueller investigation shouldn`t be permitted to look

into, either Russian interference in the 2016 election for the Trump



You know, but I also thought as I watched it, the substantive testimony was

really important. It was also a real punch bag for the rule of law and the

rule of law it`s been looking pretty bedraggled lately. Yesterday, it

showed people that we can play by the rules, that we can let democracy work

the way that it`s supposed to if the Democrats will be smart and deliberate

about the process they use so it is a victory on a lot of fronts.


Jennifer Rubin, unfortunately Barry Berke didn`t take over until we had to

under 5:00 hours of something that was pretty hard to fall.



5 minute rule makes it chaotic and of course all of the members feel

compelled to make speeches and to not follow up on the others but I think

what Barry Berke showed was that this impeachment stuff is not complicated.


In the course of a half hour, he established two grounds for impeachment,

two articles. The first at the President directed him not to answer any

questions to the committee without any legal basis. He`s never been an

employee of the federal government.


There`s no privilege that applies to him. So number one, it`s similar to

the Nixon article 3, trying to hinder a Congress and number 2, he confirmed

what was in the Mueller report that in fact, the President of United States

went to an outside person to tell the Attorney General to stop

investigating Trump and his associates.


Those are two perfect grounds for impeachment. They are not complicated.

The American people can understand them and if you can do that with one

witness, if you can get 3 to 4, I think we will actually make some progress



O`DONNELL: And Joyce, to be fair to the members, they do have the 5 minute

limit. The witness knows that all they have to do is filibuster their way

through the 5 minutes and as soon as they get through that 5 minutes, there

will be a very friendly 5 minutes from Republicans and so nothing will ever

really get traction and get going.


But I would submit to the members that that`s a reason to let Barry Berke

do all the work. He`s the only one who`s given the forum for 30 solid

minutes. If that hearing had only been 30 minutes of Barry Berke, that

would have been enough.


VANCE: He was effective yesterday. It`s a shame that when folks turned on

their televisions yesterday morning that, that wasn`t what they sell out of

the box. That`s the kind of information people need about this President`s

misconduct and hopefully, many of the members will see it the same way that

you did.


O`DONNELL: Jennifer, what are the odds? What are the odds of the elected

members of House Judiciary Committee thinking no I`ll let Barry have the



RUBIN: I think about a 10 percent chance maybe. I`m over estimating them.

This is what they live for and in fairness to them, a couple questioners

who actually did make some progress so in fairness there are a couple of



O`DONNELL: No Jennifer, they tend to be former prosecutors themselves.

There are some capable people there.


RUBIN: Yes, they do.


O`DONNELL: That`s true.


RUBIN: So would it be nice if they ceded their time to a couple of the

members to ask questions and combine the time and then to Barry, that would

be delightful but in all my years in Washington they have never been able

to do that with very few exceptions.


And if few exceptions were the ones that were successful in the Watergate

hearings and other major scandals in Iran country (ph).  And yet the lesson

is lost because these people are showboaters.  They want to be on

television.  And it does a huge disservice to the American people.  And I

really do hope that they will look at this and, as I put it, there was

chaos and then there was Barry Berke.  And for the sake of the country and

their own reputations we have to have less chaos, more Barry Berke.


O`DONNELL:  Jennifer Rubin gets tonight`s last word.


Joyce Vance, Jennifer Rubin, thank you both for joining us.  Really

appreciate.  That is tonight`s LAST WORD.  “THE 11TH HOUR” with Brian

Williams starts now.







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