Amy Klobuchar interview. TRANSCRIPT: 8/1/19, The Last Word w/ Lawrence O’Donnell.

Amy Klobuchar, Ron Klain, Waleed Shahid, Eliot Engel

LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, MSNBC HOST:  Good evening, Joy.  Thank you very much. 


JOY REID, MSNBC HOST:  Thank you.  Have a great show. 


O`DONNELL:  Well, we have some sad news tonight from Hyannis Port from the

Kennedy family, and that is the 22-year-old granddaughter of Robert Kennedy

and Ethel Kennedy has died. 


“The New York Times” is reporting that it is an apparent drug overdose.  We

will get more for you on the information as it develops tonight.  But that

is once again another tragic death announcement tonight by the Kennedy

family in Hyannis Port.  As soon as we can bring you more information on

that, we will bring it during this hour. 


But we will go on now to the news of the week in the presidential campaign,

beginning with a very simple fact.  Presidents don`t debate.  But

presidential candidates have to debate in order to win the presidency, a

job where they then will not have to debate. 


Most American presidents have been elected without ever debating.  Debates

do not actually test the skills necessary to be president.  And most of the

political news media does not seem to realize that.  And I will have much

more to say about that at the end of this hour.  And about how we can

improve debates and the work that you actually have to do as a viewer and

voter when you are watching the debates. 


It shouldn`t be a passive exercise.  You should be listening and thinking

and ignoring much of what happens in presidential debates, especially the

games sometimes played by some of the moderators.  And this week, the

moderators` game, which was probably urged on them by their bosses, was to

trap the candidates into fighting with each other.  Trap Democrats into

fighting with Democrats. 


One candidate refused to do that.  Even when specifically invited by the

moderator to attack a specific candidate, with one candidate refused to

play that game.  One candidate rose above the CNN game and never criticized

another candidate on that stage. 


The candidate who wouldn`t play the game, the candidate who only attacked

Donald Trump in the debates, will be our first guest tonight.  That

candidate went from the debate stage to fighting Mitch McConnell on the

Senate floor today, on the last day of work in the Senate before the August



In the week since Joe Scarborough started Mitch McConnell “Moscow Mitch”,

that label has stuck and is now being used by Democrats in Kentucky in a

way that has Mitch McConnell worried about his re-election campaign in

Kentucky.  Senator McConnell got stuck with the label Moscow Mitch when he

chose to repeatedly block legislation designed to strengthen our election

system against another attack by the Russian government. 


Mitch McConnell says the legislation is partisan, and that`s why he blocked

it.  But that is not true.  One of the bills Mitch McConnell blocked was

written by a Democrat and a Republican.  It has bipartisan support. 


The Democrat who wrote that bill along with Oklahoma Republican Senator

James Lankford knows how and when to work in a bipartisan way in the United

States Senate.  But this week on the presidential debate stage, that

senator was the most partisan Democrat in the debates because that senator

refused to criticize any Democrats and only attacked Donald Trump. 


And here is that senator, on the Senate floor today going after Mitch






this day without passing election security legislation.  We have bipartisan

election security legislation.  We`ve had that for years.  And yet it has

been stopped every step of the way. 


Last week, my bill was offered by senator Schumer on the floor.  It could

have gone to the president`s desk that day.  Instead, Leader McConnell

objected.  During his objection he said that election legislation must be

drafted with great care and on a bipartisan basis. 


We did that.  Senator Warner is here.  He worked on it.  We did that with

Senator Lankford, but we were blocked at the rules committee.  We were

blocked.  That`s a documented fact. 


The markup had been scheduled.  It was ready to go.  Senator Blunt had been

willing to mold a markup on the bill.  And it was stopped. 


I am going to tell that story every day until we advance this.  I have an

opportunity to do that.  And I`m going to do it because people need to know

what`s going on. 


This should not be – this should not be about partisanship or what

benefits what party.  You think that`s what the founders were thinking when

they decided to declare independence from a foreign country?  They were

thinking of our country as one. 




O`DONNELL:  And here is a sample of Amy Klobuchar on the presidential

debate stage trying to advance her candidacy without ever attacking another





KLOBUCHAR:  I have bold ideas but they are grounded in reality.  And, yes,

I will make some simple promises.  I can win this.  I`m from the Midwest

and I have run every race, every place, every time, and I will govern with

integrity – the integrity worthy of the extraordinary people of this



So this is what I think we need to get done.  We need the public option. 

That`s what Barack Obama wanted and it would bring health care costs down

for everyone. 


People can`t wait.  I`ve got my friend Nicole out there whose son was

actually died trying to ration his insulin as a restaurant manager and he

died because he didn`t have enough money to pay for it. 


MODERATOR:  Senator –


KLOBUCHAR:  Bernie and I worked on pharmaceutical issues together. 




MODERATOR:  Thank you, Senator. 


KLOBUCHAR:  What`s missing is the right person in the White House.


Donald Trump wants to use the people as political pawns. 


MODERATOR:  Thank you.


KLOBUCHAR:  I was just in Flint.  And they are still drinking bottled water

in that town.  And that is outrageous.  But I don`t think anyone can

justify what this president is doing. 


Little kids literally woke up this weekend turned on the TV and saw their

president calling their city the town of Baltimore, nothing more than a

home for rats.  And I can tell you as your president, that will stop. 


When he was just with Vladimir Putin at the G-20, when he was asked about

invading our democracy, he made a joke.


We need someone that has people`s back.  We also need someone that can win. 

And I have won in these red districts.  I win in the Midwest.  I can win in

states like Wisconsin and Michigan, and Iowa.  And, last, yes, I will

govern with integrity. 


We have a president where people turn off their TV when they see him.  Not

me.  I will make you proud as your president. 




O`DONNELL:  And then there was this moment when Amy Klobuchar was

specifically invited to attack her competitors for the Democratic

presidential nomination.  And she would not do it. 




DEBATE MODERATOR:  You have said when asked about your primary opponents,

quote a lot of people are making promises and I`m not making promises just

to get elected.  Who on the stage is making promises just to get elected? 


KLOBUCHAR:  Everyone wants to get elected but my point is this.  I think

when we have a guy in the White House that has told over 10,000 lies that

we better be very straightforward with the American people. 




O`DONNELL:  Leading off our discussion tonight is Democratic Senator Amy

Klobuchar of Minnesota.  She`s a member of the Senate Judiciary Committee

and candidate for president.


Senator, thank you very much for joining us tonight.  I really appreciate



KLOBUCHAR:  Thanks, Lawrence. 


O`DONNELL:  And I just want to switch gears for a moment on this breaking

news that we`re getting from Hyannis Port.  You worked with Ted Kennedy in

the Senate and now one of his nieces reportedly died today, the news

released by the family in Hyannis Port, possibly from drug overdose.  I

wanted your reaction to that. 


KLOBUCHAR:  Well, you just think of the tragedy that has hit this family. 

And it`s just one thing after another.  Obviously, we think of them today. 


But this problem of drug overdoses is happening all over this country right

now.  And certainly we know it here with Prince in Minnesota, but it`s not

just famous people.  It`s everyday people. 


I talked about little Casey Jo, a champion swimmer at the end of the

debate, who went into the emergency room and got hooked.  And her last

words to her mom was: mama, it`s not my fault, and she later died. 


This is happening because we have a lot of politicians talking about it. 

But just as I said in the debate, to be straightforward, these companies if

it was opioids I don`t know what happened in this tragic case, but if it

was opioids, we know what happened here. 


The market was flooded by pharma companies.  People turned to opioids and

they turned illegal drugs and they started taking the drugs and they`re

dying.  And those pharma companies had better be held responsible. 


It`s one of the reasons I came out with a full plan for mental health and

addiction, given my own family history with my dad who had drunk driving

convictions and finally got treatment.  In his words he was pursued by

grace and it changed his whole life.  I think everyone has that same right. 


So, whenever I hear these stories – and again, we don`t know exactly what

happened – whether they are in famous families or not, it makes me think

about that we could be doing a better job as a country getting people into

treatment, removing the stigma and then making sure that the people this

that are responsible for this which has been the drug companies are paying

for it. 


O`DONNELL:  Senator, I want to talk about the debate and make sure we

reserve enough time to talk about what you were trying to achieve on the

Senate floor today. 


To the debate, why didn`t you do it?  CNN wanted you to attack your

competitors on that stage.  They wanted you to – if you felt like it, to

reach over and attack competitors on the other stages that you weren`t even

on.  But they really, really wanted you to do that. 


Why didn`t you do it? 


KLOBUCHAR:  Yes, because I don`t think this is a sporting event.  I think

there is more that unites our party than divides us.  I do think we will

have, as you have seen, legitimate discussions.  I disagree with some of my

colleagues and made that clear and continue to have disagreements on policy

and make that clear, because I want to make the case I`m the best



But we`ve got to use these debates, Lawrence, as a moment to take it to

Donald Trump because there are not just base Democrats watching those

debates.  There is independent.  There`s moderate Republican.  So, there is

the general election issue. 


But there`s also the fact that I still believe that people want to hear

from us about what differentiates us, what`s the contrast, what`s our own

optimistic economic agenda.  And if you spend the whole time just cutting

down your opponent, just to get that viral moment, then what have we done? 

We don`t win and we don`t do better for this country. 


And so, it`s just a fundamental belief of mine that maybe I won`t have that

viral moment or maybe I will.  I had one once in the Kavanaugh hearing just

because I did my job.  And that`s what I`m not looking for it by going

after my opponents by saying mean things.  I just don`t think that`s how do

you it. 


Now, some people think this is a test for how you can take on Donald Trump. 

As I said at that debate, one of my opponents once in a debate, Republican,

said to me you`re nothing but a street fighter from the iron range.  And I

said thank you. 


And you can show your tough enough to take on Donald Trump without doing it

against fellow Democrats. 


O`DONNELL:  Well, is it one way to do it the which you did it in the debate

which is you show how you are taking on Donald Trump but actually taking on

Donald Trump during the debate? 


KLOBUCHAR:  Yes.  Well, that does seem to me to be a good idea.  My

favorite moment for me was when he called me snow woman after my

announcement in the blizzard and I had taken on climate change, and then he

made fun of me for doing that in snow. 


And so, then, I wrote back to him, I sent out a tweet and said the science

is on my side I`m climate change, Donald Trump and I`d love to see how your

hair would fair in blizzard. 


And so, I just think there are many ways to take this guy on, but you`ve

got to show the absurdity of what he has done.  And one of those is what we

were talking about today on the Senate floor.  And that is he gut punched

us on the election bill last year. 


Senator Lankford and myself and Senator Burr was on the bill, Warner.  And,

basically, the administration made calls directly, Don McGahn, the White

House counsel, and stopped the bill.  They called Republicans. 


O`DONNELL:  Let`s listen to what the president said today about Russian

interference in the election since this is so relevant to what you were

fighting for in the Senate floor today. 




REPORTER:  Robert Mueller said last week that Russia is interfering in U.S.

elections right now.  Did you raise that with Vladimir Putin yesterday?



this.  Do you believe this now?  OK.


REPORTER:  He said it last week.  Did you raise that with President Putin



TRUMP:  OK, fine, we didn`t talk about that. 




O`DONNELL:  So, there is the president of the United States saying in

effect, he doesn`t believe that Russian – Russia interfered with the

election or Russia plans to interfere with the election when he is

confronted with that by Robert Mueller`s testimony through a reporter he

says you don`t really believe this. 


KLOBUCHAR:  Yes, same old thing.  Robert Mueller said it under oath that

the Russians are doing it as we speak.  Trump`s own FBI director

Christopher Wray under my questioning and others just last week said the

same thing.  His own intelligence Director Dan Coates who is now sadly

resigning said that they are getting bolder. 


So, it is undeniable that this is happening.  They`ve done it through

hacking and done it through dirty propaganda online.  And both of these

things we could take steps to decrease the possibility of in happening. 


As I said today, this is about our democracy.  Hundreds of thousands of

people lost lives on battlefields to protect our right to vote in our

democracy.  Four little girls lost life in a church in Birmingham at the

height of the civil rights movement because we stood up for our democracy. 


So, for this guy to make jokes about it all the time it`s unpatriotic and

it`s un-American. 


And this can`t wait for a new president, Lawrence.  There are 11 states

that don`t have backup paper ballots.  Anything we can do to get the backup

paper ballots.  Some of them are partial, some don`t have it at all,

because otherwise, we could have a presidential election and not know the



And the second thing is making the social media companies tell us where the

ads are coming from and who is paying for them so that we can have a fair

election.  Four billion, three to four billion is going to be spent.  Your

network when you run ads, you`ve got to say who is paying for those ads and

what they are.  Not true of Facebook or Google or Twitter or any of those

companies.  And their volunteer measures don`t measure up to what you have

to do on network TV or radio. 


O`DONNELL:  Senator, I know we are not hearing the name Moscow Mitch on the

Senate floor.  Senate rules and customs don`t allow that and senators don`t

want to talk that way about each other no matter how bad it gets.  But the

name does seem to be sticking, and it does seem to be sticking in politics

in Kentucky, to the point where there are now reports indicating that maybe

Mitch McConnell will want to negotiate something with Amy Klobuchar when he

gets back from the August recess. 


KLOBUCHAR:  Well, right now, Senator Lankford and I – and that actually

was our bill that we did last year hasn`t been reintroduced because we

continue to negotiate it.  The other – the bills that were blocked was a

bill I was leading with Senator Warner and others.  And then Senator Wyden

and I have a bill. 


But what this bill does it requires backup paper ballots if you take out

federal money for election that would move the states to know that`s what

they have to do.  And it has audit provisions.  Senator Lankford and I

talked today.  We`re continuing to negotiate.  My hope is that over the

august break as long as your viewers keep calling and demanding this and

using whatever names they want, that maybe we can actually get this done. 


O`DONNELL:  Senator, I`m kind of speechless about what I saw happen in the

Senate Judiciary Committee today because I`ve never seen anything like it. 

I know you`ve never seen anything like it. 


It was a markup of a bill in that process in which the committee votes on a

bill.  Whenever that happens, both sides get to speak about it at minimum

speak about it before there is a vote.  Usually they get to amend it or

offer amendments before there is a vote.  Lindsey Graham just convened the

committee and basically said let`s vote.  Shocked Pat Leahy who had 40

years of service in the Senate, couldn`t believe what he was saying. 


What was your experience of what happened on your committee today? 


KLOBUCHAR:  Yes, I was there for the entire hearing.  And it was one of the

saddest things I`d ever seen.  Senator Graham as we pointed out worked with

us on that initial immigration bill when President Bush was in, valiantly

we tried to get that done.  He then supported the bill in 2013

comprehensive reform. 


And now, he has just gone when it comes to this issue the full Trump

because what`s happened here is we would like to work with him on the issue

of seeking asylum in those home countries of the Northern Triangle.  But

instead, he has put a bill forward we have some issues with and instead of

just working with us, he rammed it through without amendment. 


I had some great amendments on temporary status people that are here,

domestic violence victims, and we weren`t able to offer any amendments.  He

– I think he broke four rules just to get it through the committee on a

partisan vote.  And the despite how vitriolic the immigration is right now,

there are people of goodwill that worked together on this in the Senate in

the past and want to in the future. 


And that`s why this was such a sad moment.  The bill I suppose is now

headed to the floor. 


O`DONNELL:  Senator Amy Klobuchar, thank you very much for joining us

tonight.  I really appreciate it. 


KLOBUCHAR:  Well, thank you.  Thank you, Lawrence.  It`s great to be on. 


O`DONNELL:  Thank you. 


O`DONNELL:  And when we come back, we`re going to have more on tonight`s

breaking news from the Kennedy family in Hyannis Port, another tragic death

in the Kennedy family, the 22-year-old granddaughter of Robert Kennedy and

Ethel Kennedy died today.  We will have more on that. 


And more Democrats now declaring they support impeachment, including one of

the most senior Democrats in the House, a chairman of a very important

committee now supporting impeachment. 


He will join us. 




O`DONNELL:  Back to breaking news tonight.  Saoirse Kennedy Hill, a

granddaughter of Robert F. Kennedy and Ethel Kennedy died this afternoon

after suffering an apparent overdose at the Kennedy compound in Hyannis

Port, Massachusetts, according to two people close to the family who spoke

to “The New York Times.”


Saoirse Kennedy Hill was the daughter of Courtney Kennedy Hill and

granddaughter of Ethel Kennedy.  She was 22 years old. 


The family released a statement today including this quote from Ethel

Kennedy, saying, the world is a little less beautiful today. 


We are joined now by Anne Thompson of NBC News joining us by phone from

Hyannis Port.


Anne, what do we know at this point?


ANNE THOMPSON, NBC NEWS (via telephone):  Lawrence, we know that this

afternoon, emergency responders were called to Robert Kennedy – the home

on the Kennedy compound that belonged to the former and late Senator Robert

Kennedy.  And they were responding to an apparent overdose. 


We know tonight that the person who they treated was 22-year-old Saoirse

Kennedy Hill.  What`s interesting about Saoirse is that she has spoken

about her struggles with mental illness when she was at Deerfield Academy. 

And she was just 16.  She wrote about the struggles, saying she fought with

depression and suffered what we she called bouts of deep sadness that felt

like a heavy boulder on her chest. 


And she also revealed in the newspaper article for the student newspaper

Deerfield Academy that she had once tried to commit suicide after being

sexually assaulted.  She said she did the worst thing a victim could do and

pretended that it hadn`t happened.  And it all – this all became too much

and I attempted to take my own life. 


But in this article, she felt she had overcome those issues.  She said we

are all either struggling or know someone who is battles an illness, so

let`s come together to make our community inclusive and comfortable.  But

as far as beyond the fact that she died in afternoon and that this is a

family that is absolutely heartbroken at her passing, the specific

circumstances of her death have not been made public at this time. 


O`DONNELL:  And, Anne, this family has suffered so greatly through each

generation.  The earlier generation of cousins has gone through similar

kinds of suffering.  So this is a family that has tragically found itself

in this situation before. 


THOMPSON:  Well, just think – this is the second – Ethel Kennedy lost her

son David to a drug overdose in the 1980s.  We don`t know again if this is

an overdose.  It would be – this would be her grandchild that she lost to

the same sort of illness. 


Patrick Kennedy, the former congressman has been public about his struggles

with mental health, with mental illness.  And so, this is a big, large

family that deals with a lot of the same problems that many American

families deal with on a constant basis.  But in this case, I mean this is

now, you know, another Kennedy, another Kennedy who has gone at an age that

seems far too young. 


O`DONNELL:  Anne Thompson, thank you very much for joining us tonight.  I

really appreciate it. 


THOMPSON:  You`re welcome, Lawrence. 


O`DONNELL:  We`ll be right back. 




O`DONNELL: Most members of the political news media are sports fans and

most of them think politics is sport, and most of them cover it as a sport,

a heavyweight championship fight. So candidates know they will be scored by

TV pundits on punches thrown. So punches are thrown.


But it doesn`t have to be this way. It is possible to campaign without

attacking your competitors. Amy Klobuchar showed that in her debate

performance. It is possible to campaign for office without ever mentioning

your opponents.


I worked for United States Senator who was repeatedly reelected in the

State of New York with two-thirds of the vote, simply by talking about what

he had done as a Senator and what he would continue to do and never

mentioning his opponents.


Presidential races are different, of course they are, and the competition

is much more intense than the Senate race, of course and it can feel much

more personal. One of the ways of competing on a presidential debate stage

is simply making the very best case for yourself without trying to tear

someone else down at the same time. The sports model for that could be home

run derby.


What if each Democrat on the stage treated the competition like home run

derby instead of a boxing match, and when each one of them got up to bat,

they tried to do their very best. Make their best case for themselves, just

hit good solid clean home runs.


Here are the competitors in this year`s home run derby. They are all fierce

competitors. They were each trying to beat the other but only by doing

their own personal best. Politicians could learn a lot from them.


Joining us now is Waleed Shahid. He is a Spokesperson for Justice Democrats

and former senior aide to Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. He is a former delegate

for Bernie Sanders in the 2016 presidential campaign and he is currently

not affiliated with a 2020 presidential campaign.


Also with us Ron Klain, he was a senior aide to Vice President Joe Biden

and President Obama. He`s also was an advisor - he is now an Advisor to Joe

Biden`s 2020 presidential campaign.


And Ron, I was just learning that in my teleprompter, so if it`s present

tense now that you are formally advising the Biden campaign.





O`DONNELL: So give us give us your reaction to what you saw on that debate

stage last night.


KLAIN: Look, I think you saw on the one hand the candidates did make a

powerful case against Donald Trump. And I thought you know Vice President

Biden took it to Trump in his opening statement. Senator Gillibrand had her

famous line about Cloroxing Oval Office. Governor Inslee called him a white



If you certainly watched that debate, you saw that candidates taking to

Donald Trump. But you also saw seven candidates individually attack the

Vice-President. And so part of that debate was him dealing with those

attacks, responding to those attacks. Making points about his opponents

records. That is part of the debate process and I think you saw both those

things happening last night.


O`DONNELL: And Waleed, what did you see up there?



a case for a different–


O`DONNELL: By the way, feel free. We haven`t done a show since Monday. Feel

free to reach back into Tuesday night, the first debate, where Bernie

sanders was up.


SHAHID: Yes. Also in that debate I thought we saw a really substantive

discussion about the role of government and the Democratic Party. The role

of government in America. I mean, it`s a tectonic shift from where the

Democratic Party was in the 1990s with Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders

trying to make government work again.


I mean, it`s not that long ago that Bill Clinton said the era of big

government is over. And now era of big government is back in the Democratic

Party. They`re both kind of rekindling the spirit of the New Deal, the

Great Society.


I think in terms of your baseball metaphor, I mean, they have to be able to

draw contrast with other candidates, so I think that`s a lot of what

they`re doing. There`s been a lot of talk today about how Obama - President

Obama was attacked last night over immigration, which I think is a little

over saying it.


I mean, I think what actually happened is a reflection on mistakes

Democrats made in the first term of the President regarding immigration and

deportation. I mean, the first person who will tell you they disagreed with

Obama`s immigration policy is Obama himself, because he created new

policies to actually provide relief to Dreamers.


So I think it`s going a little too sensitive about the robust discussion

that`s happening. Tension can produce growth. 2008, I mean, people forget

that that got pretty heated as well.


O`DONNELL: Yes. And I agree with Waleed on that. Ron, I think, this word

attack gets used too much. What I`m watching is a variation on the kind of

debate you see unfold within the Democratic Party for decades on the Senate

floor, for example, where we`ve both worked.


On any given issue and there`s a range of opinion. Usually the party is

unified in the direction like we want to provide more access to health care

for more people and then you get into this debate, argument within the

Committees and then on the Senate floor about what are the right methods

for doing that.


And as you go through that debate, certain things get thrown out in order

to clear a vote hurdle. Like with Obamacare, when they just dropped the

public option, because they knew they couldn`t get it through the House of

Representatives. So for me there`s something very familiar about all of

this that I don`t think of as attack.


KLAIN: Yes. Look, I think, the discussion that went on in health care, both

nights, I think was a robust and interesting discussion. And to go to back

to Waleed`s point. I think one interesting thing is, if you take kind of

what the left side of that debate was and the more moderate side of that



Both positions - the whole range of positions is significantly more

progressive than where we were just - eight - seven or eight years ago as a

party with the kind of the public option now being a starting point for

people like Vice President Biden and Senator Bennet and others. And

obviously, Senator Warren, Senator Sanders for Medicare for All, Senator

Harris for some hybrid plan.


But I think what you are saying is kind of like what you said, Lawrence, a

discussion about the policy stuff. I think that`s very, very healthy. I

think when it stays away from people attacking each other`s motives, when

it stays away from people attacking each other`s - Senator Gillibrand went

after an Op-Ed Vice President Biden wrote 38 years ago, I don`t think

that`s as healthy, OK. I don`t think that`s what the Democrats want to see.


But I think having a robust debate among these candidates about the

different ways to meet the shared Democratic goal of expanding healthcare

in our country, I think, that`s a that`s a healthy conversation, one we

have to have.


O`DONNELL: The - when I when I look back at the Reagan presidency and how

Ronald Reagan in his road to the presidency, Democrat, Republicans never

attacked him for having been a Democrat - a Democrat a couple of decades

earlier, because they care about where you are today and that`s part of the

key to the Trump candidacy.


All they had to do was here that he was going to accept Mitch McConnell`s

Supreme Court justices during the campaign and they didn`t care what his

previous position on abortion was or any previous position he ever had. Is

there a lesson in that present tense campaigning of Republicans - for



SHAHID: I don`t know. I think like as a Millennial, I like look at the

presidential stage and I see candidates who`ve made decisions that really

impacted my life from voting for the war in Iraq or voting for deregulating

Wall Street.


Or overseeing the - most carbon emissions that we`ve seen in this country

have come in the last 30 years. And so I think a lot of the anger is being

driven by young people who`ve seen politicians not really solve systemic

crises in our country, and that`s why I think you`re seeing people like

Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders really propose solutions that solve

these crises and actually are the goal themselves rather than just getting

to the goal.


O`DONNELL: Why aren`t you supporting Bernie Sanders this time?


SHAHID: Well, I think, right now we`ve had a lot of supporters that are

split between candidates. We`ll follow what our supporters want, so we have

a lot of supporters who support Bernie.


O`DONNELL: Also your organization, you`re staying out of it because your

organization hasn`t chosen him candidate.




O`DONNELL: Yes. OK. I got it. Ron, what about that the way in which

Republicans seem to be very willing to forgive and forget anything you`ve

done before today, because what they care about as voters and as candidates

is what are you going to do tomorrow.


KLAIN: Well look I do think the centerpiece of these conversations should

be about what these Democrats are proposing to do tomorrow. What`s

realistic, what can get done, what can actually make people`s lives better.


I think Vice President Biden was talking about that. Last time we talked

about his health care plan and how he would expand coverage. So I think

that`s a positive direction. Hopefully, we`ll see more of that in the

upcoming debates.


O`DONNELL: OK. Ron, Joe Biden aside, in the two nights, just give me just

give me one name on who you think did the best on each of those two nights,

without including Joe Biden.


KLAIN: Its hard question Lawrence. I actually think Andrew Yang was kind of

like a surprise breakout star. I thought he did a really good job of

raising issues the other candidates aren`t really talking about.


O`DONNELL: All right. We`re going to leave it there. Waleed Shahid, Ron

Klain, thank you both for joining us.


When we come back the Russians have decided who they do not want to be the

Democratic presidential nominee or at least one of the people they don`t

want to be the Democratic presidential nominee. I`m sure there`s lot of

them that they are afraid of. We will get to that.


And more Democrats in the House are coming out in favor of impeachment,

including the Chairman of the Foreign Affairs Committee in the House Eliot

Engel. Chairman Engel will join us.




O`DONNELL: Since Robert Mueller`s testimony to the House, 24 Democrats in

the House have announced they back impeachment. And today the number of

House Democrats supporting impeachment rose to just one vote shy of the of

a majority of the Democratic caucus itself.


According to the NBC News count 117 Democrats and one independent, a former

Republican, have declared support for impeachment. Well more than halfway

to the 218 votes it would be necessary to vote for impeachment in the House

of Representatives.


Joining us now is the Chairman of the House Foreign Affairs Committee,

Democratic Congressman Eliot Engel. Mr. Chairman thank you very much for

joining us tonight.


REP. ELIOT ENGEL (D-NY): Thank you, it`s a pleasure to be here.


O`DONNELL: So have now you - you represent New York City. You have now come

out in favor of impeachment. Your fellow Chairman Jerry Nadler represents

another part of New York City. He will be in charge of impeachment if it

happens. What brought you to this decision?


ENGEL: Well, first of all we certainly watched the hearings. Two of our

Committees, of course, had Mr. Mueller there, and we`ve had the opportunity

to read Mueller`s report and conclusion. And I`ve come to the conclusion

that this needs an impeachment inquiry.


I mean, it`s not something I relish. It`s very, very difficult, but if we

do nothing, then we encourage this kind of behavior not only now but for

all future Presidents as well. So Mueller also said that he could not

impeach the President–


O`DONNELL: Indict the President.


ENGEL: Indict the President, sorry. He could not indict the President,

because as the sitting President cannot be indicted. He said it would be

possible after he would leave office. So it falls to us. It falls to the



We`re duly elected. I was sworn to uphold the Constitution. And I don`t

take it very lightly. I fact, I agonized over it, which is why I didn`t do

it weeks or months ago.


O`DONNELL: Did the Clinton impeachment process that you were there in the

House for that. Is that part of what has slowed you down in - or made use

as careful as you`ve been in reaching this decision I should say.


ENGEL: I think it played a role. I wouldn`t say it played a major role. But

last time it really just brought the country into a really difficult

position. But, Lawrence, what choice do we really have? We have an

obligation and we have to fulfill that obligation. I think to do anything

less would be really not doing our duties.


We would hold it - we know the Senate has a majority and so the chance of

getting a conviction - you can get an impeachment, but not a conviction is

nil. But that doesn`t matter. Because I think the Constitution works and we

really have to do our job.


I mean, we are talking about Russian interference in the United States

election. And we are talking about collusion with the Trump campaign. I

mean, what can be more important than a democracy hanging in the balance.


The President takes it quite cavalierly. He thinks it`s not a big deal. But

nothing is a big deal to him. This is our very, very democracy hanging in

the balance. And I don`t want to get melodramatic.


But the fact of the matter is we have a responsibility and I think you`re

going to see the House take that responsibility.


O`DONNELL: We saw the President today - a video was showed earlier in the

hour - asked by a reporter about Robert Mueller saying that the Russians

attacked the election that they will continue to try to attack the election

and did you mention that to Vladimir Putin?


And the President said to the reporter, “You don`t believe that, do you?”

In other words there`s the President saying publicly, he doesn`t believe

now. He`s saying now. I don`t believe that the Russians attacked our



ENGEL: Well, I think he have to be naive or I don`t know what to, to not

believe it. It`s there. And then there are other things. The Speaker has

designated six of us, who are Chairs, to continue investigations.


And we still don`t know what happened when Putin met Trump in Helsinki that

time. Trump seems to have this this this wonderful feeling towards the

dictators and despots. I don`t know what the attraction is. But people want

to know what happened. I want to know what happened.


O`DONNELL: And that`s part of your investigation.




O`DONNELL: Chairman Engel, thank you very much for joining tonight. We

really appreciate it.


ENGEL: My pleasure.


O`DONNELL: Thanks for coming here. Appreciate it.


And when we come back, we will discuss how to improve presidential campaign

debates. They can`t get much worse. Improving them is not that difficult.

That`ll be tonight`s LAST WORD.




O`DONNELL: In all of the TV analysis of last night`s debate, including my

own analysis, I have yet to hear one word about which candidate was

revealed to be the best possible future President of the United States,

that`s not the way we in the media usually analyze debates.


We cover them like sporting events - winners, losers, home runs,

strikeouts, zingers, knockout punches, the line of the night. We try to

guess which candidates impress the TV audience the most and we are always

guessing about that, although we rarely label our statements as the pure

guesses that they are.


We evaluate debating skills and that`s the problem with debates - coverage

of debates. Presidents don`t debate. Presidents don`t have to think on

their feet. Presidents never have to make a decision alone without advisors

who have much more experience on every subject than the President does.


And so the debates do not test the skills necessary to do the job of

President well. It`s a job that you never get to see the President do,

because the real work of the presidency is done behind the closed door of

the Oval Office or the closed door of the cabinet room or the Situation

Room or on Air Force One.


The real work of the presidency is making decisions after being

sufficiently briefed on the subject by people who have been working on that

subject for their entire careers and know the subject way better than the

President ever will. The President doesn`t have to sit there on his own

trying to think of every relevant fact about a particular policy in 30

seconds, never. That`s not the job.


I personally have seen only one President doing the job of the presidency,

and that`s because when Bill Clinton was President, I was the Chief of

Staff of the Senate Finance Committee and most of the President`s agenda

had to come through my Committee.


And so the Chairman of the Senate Finance Committee Daniel Patrick Moynihan

and I were repeatedly in meetings with the President in the Oval Office

with the door closed and in the Cabinet Room with the door closed.


And in those rooms in every meeting I was in the President of the United

States had less to say than anyone else in the room. And in the meetings I

was in, the President of the United States knew less about the subject than

anyone else in the room. And Bill Clinton was as steeped in policy detail

as any president we`ve ever had.


President Clinton was better educated than most of the people in the room.

He was probably smarter than most of the people in the room, but he was not

more informed than most of the people in the room, because he was the



The president has jurisdiction over all of the policy territory of the

federal government, all of it, from domestic policy to foreign policy and

experts in the room usually are only very high informed about their - that

one subject, taxation or national defense.


In most presidential meetings, the President does not have to make a

decision. He simply listens to what the policy experts have to say and what

the congressional players have to say about how many votes, the different

policy approaches can get in the Senate and the House.


And the President usually decides later, sometimes much later, after

conferring with his own advisors about which policy approach to support. I

actually saw President Clinton make governing decisions a few times, right

there in the meeting, but that was very rare. And he took his time when he

did that, when he made those decisions sitting in the room with us. And

there was no 60-second time limit on his decision making.


And so if we want debates to more realistically show what a candidate might

be like as President, there should be ten people on the stage, but only two

candidates. And each candidate should have five advisers on different

policy arenas sitting right behind them, exactly the way all cabinet

members do when they testify to Congress.


And those advisers should be able to pass notes to the candidate, the way

they pass notes to cabinet members when they are testifying. And we should

give the candidates the questions in advance so that we can get their best,

most thoughtful answers, answers that they arrive at with the help of their

advisers exactly the way they would, responsibly do their job as President

of the United States.


Now, I know how heretical that sounds. But a few elections ago, in a

private conversation with a member of the Presidential Debate Commission,

who I knew, I very tentatively brought up what I thought would be the

craziest idea he had ever heard, giving the candidates the questions in



And to my surprise and delight, he said he had recently decided that was a

good idea, even before I mentioned it to him. And that was because he knows

what the job of the presidency actually is.


But it`s not going to happen. We`re going to continue to have TV debates

that serve the purposes of TV, especially commercial TV, rather than the

interests of voters. And so your job as a voter when you watch the debates

is to try to think beyond the sound bite and figure out what, if anything,

in the debate actually matters in your choice of candidate.


And don`t be surprised if there is nothing in the debate that helps you

make up your hind. Because the debates are not designed for you, the

debates are not designed to enlighten us about how can best do the job of

the presidency, because the debates have absolutely nothing to do with the

job of President of the Untied States.


That is tonight`s LAST WORD. “THE 11TH HOUR” with Brian Williams starts



BRIAN WILLIAMS, MSNBC ANCHOR: Tonight, the President dismisses the warning

from Mueller that Russia is interfering in our elections and so he says, he

didn`t raise it while on phone with Putin.







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