Thousands join anti-Trump protests. TRANSCRIPT: 6/4/19, The Last Word w/ Lawrence O’Donnell.

Ron Klain, Michael Wolff, Lucy McBath

LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, MSNBC HOST:  Rachel, everybody tunes in at 8:00 to

start with Chris.  Come on.  That`s not anything new.


So I`ve driven through Fort Wayne, Indiana, so like the time it took to

drive through it, that`s my entire experience with it.  So, I`ll be

watching.  I`ll be learning more about it tomorrow night. 


This is going to be really – these town halls I think are getting more and

more important. 




O`DONNELL:  As we approach the debates.  It`s one of the places where these

candidates can score before they get to the debates.  So, there is a lot of

pressure on the candidate.  And tomorrow night is going to be important. 


MADDOW:  And we are less than a month away from that first debate.  We know

that there will be a minimum of ten people on that stage for the nights of

each of those debates. 




MADDOW:  So the idea that the candidates are going to be able to explain

themselves at length and in detail and with depth is hard to imagine, just

because of how many people are going to be talking at once.  So these town

halls, I think, are absolutely, absolutely critical. 


So I`m looking forward to seeing that one because of the setting and

because of the people involved. 


O`DONNELL:  So you and I have to finish our writing by 8:00 p.m., so that

we can just concentrate. 


MADDOW:  I`m just going to stay up. 


O`DONNELL:  There you go.  OK.  Thank you, Rachel. 


MADDOW:  Thanks, Lawrence. 


O`DONNELL:  Well, another day, another impeachable offense.  That`s the way

it is.  The president grotesquely violated his oath of office yesterday,

but it went largely unnoticed because of the other grotesque behavior by

the president, attacking both the mayor of London and the mayor of New York

City simultaneously, something beneath the dignity of the presidency as it

existed before Donald Trump took the oath of office. 


If the Democrats want to use yesterday`s impeachable offense as a charge

against the president, the best witness they can call to testify against

the president on this one is Attorney General William Barr, but they would

have to get William Barr to say the kind of things about the president that

he used to say before he went to work for the president.  At the end of

this hour, we will show you the impeachable offense that the president

committed yesterday and the words William Barr once used to condemn exactly

that kind of thing from this president before he went to work for Donald



But we begin tonight with the streets of London, the streets that were

filled with protesters today.  On the second day of President Trump`s visit

to London, many of the British protesters engaged in more mockery of the

president than outrage against him, believing that the most hurtful attack

point of this president is his vanity.  The now famous Trump baby balloon

floated over the protest carrying his cell phone, presumably ready to tweet

about some mayor somewhere. 


The president participated in another embarrassing news conference for the

president and for the United States of America in which once again the

president was exposed as not knowing what he was talking about on many

fronts, most especially Brexit. 




THERESA MAY, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER:  What is paramount, I believe, is

delivering on Brexit for the – for the British people.  And I seem to

remember the president suggested that I sued the European Union, which we

didn`t do.  We went into negotiations and we came out with a good deal. 



have sued but that`s OK.  I would have sued and settled, maybe, but you

never know.  She`s probably a better negotiator than I am. 




O`DONNELL:  The only person in Britain or the world today who believes the

British could have sued their way out of the European Union was Donald



While the president was suggesting impossible legal actions to the prime

minister, back in Washington, we learned today that the White House has

directed former White House communications director Hope Hicks and White

House counsel Don McGahn`s former chief of staff Annie Donaldson not to

comply with congressional subpoenas for documents related to their time at

the White House. 


The majority leader in the House, Steny Hoyer, was asked today if Hope

Hicks and Annie Donaldson could face contempt votes in the House. 




REP. STENY HOYER (D-MD):  I see every name who has either refused to

respond to a congressional subpoena or request for documents or who has

been instructed by the president not to respond is subject to being on that





O`DONNELL:  Chairman of the House Judiciary Committee Jerry Nadler rejected

a new Justice Department request to hold new negotiations over releasing

redacted portions of the Mueller report.  Next Tuesday, the House will vote

on holding Attorney General William Barr and former White House counsel Don

McGahn in contempt of Congress for not complying with congressional



We were reminded again today that time eventually catches up with Donald

Trump.  As it surely will with the Mueller report, which will no doubt be

handed over in full, including underlying documents to the Congress at the

latest when the next president is sworn into office, probably about a year

and a half from now. 


Today, “Vanity Fair`s” Gabriel Sherman has new reporting on a document that

Donald Trump has been hiding for decades.  Gabriel Sherman has obtained a

copy of Donald Trump`s prenuptial agreement with his second wife, Marla

Maples, who Donald Trump divorced four years after marrying her.  It was a

very harsh deal for the second Mrs. Trump who gave birth to Donald Trump`s

fourth child. 


In the document reported by Gabriel Sherman but not seen by us here at

MSNBC, Donald Trump listed his net worth at just over $1 billion but

provided his second wife with a one-time payout of only $1 million plus

child support for their daughter, Tiffany Trump.  The agreement specifies

that financial support for Tiffany Trump would end immediately if she

joined the military or the Peace Corps, the kind of thing no Trump has ever

even thought about doing. 


Joining us now is Gabe Sherman, a “Vanity Fair” special correspondent and

an MSNBC contributor. 


Also joining us, Tim O`Brien, who`s the executive editor of “Bloomberg

Opinion” and an MSNBC contributor.  He has reported on Donald Trump for

decades and written a book about him. 


And Ron Klain is with us.  He`s a senior – former senior aide to Vice

President Joe Biden and President Obama and a former chief counsel to the

Senate Judiciary Committee. 


Gabe, let me begin with you and the prenuptial agreement. 




O`DONNELL:  Is that a document that you`re going to produce and make



SHERMAN: I mean, that`s something I`d have to discuss with my editors.  I

have physical copy of it.  It`s 50 pages –


O`DONNELL:  The editors of “Vanity Fair” have seen it? 




SHERMAN:  Oh, of course.  It`s been through all the rigorous publishing



And, you know, it`s revealing in two ways.  One, it shows the degree to

which Trump would inflate – and Tim has written a lot about this as well,

just lie about his net worth.  This is as his casinos were going through a

very infamous now bankruptcy. 


And yet, he was claiming the value of his Taj Mahal Casino was over $1.2

billion.  No one would verify that is – even his accountants as I report

in the financial statements that`s including the prenup, his accountants

would say we have not audited the value of these assets.  So, that`s one



The second thing is just how brutally tough this was on Marla Maples.  He

basically drew out these negotiations to the eve of their wedding.  She had

just given birth to their daughter Tiffany.  She wanted to get married.  He

really squeezed her. 


This is just again a window into Donald Trump`s private life, the degree to

which these relationships are based purely on what is in his financial



O`DONNELL:  And she got no alimony on this.  No ongoing support.  And the

million dollars, and you make a point in this that, as divorce lawyers told

you that overstating your worth in of one these reports, there`s no



SHERMAN:  Yes, no downside.


O`DONNELL:  You would only legal trouble if you understate. 


SHERMAN:  Of course. 


O`DONNELL:  So he was stuck with the dilemma of he`s trying to lowball her

on any possible future divorce, but at the same time he doesn`t want a

document out there anywhere that indicates he`s not a billionaire. 


SHERMAN:  Of course.  And, you know, this was the five-year period between

1990 and 1995 that he did not appear on the “Forbes” list of billionaires. 

Clearly his net worth was at a low point.  The hard assets he showed was

$130 million in cash, a lot of which, as “The New York Times” has reported

was handed to him by his father, Fred Trump. 


So, you know, this was a case where he was trying to paint a picture of

being a master of the universe, when, in fact, he was clearly nowhere near



O`DONNELL:  And you mentioned how this marriage number two ended, which is

something that is also covered in Michael Wolff`s new book. 


SHERMAN:  yes.


O`DONNELL:  Michael`s going to be joining us later in this hour.  And the

precipitating event was the second Mrs. Trump being caught on the beach in

Florida with one of the Trump security guards. 


SHERMAN:  Yes.  And ironically enough, it was reported in the “National

Enquirer,” which at that time was not the Trump organ it would become in

the 2016 election. 


O`DONNELL:  One of the lessons that Donald Trump had to get in business

with the “Enquirer.”


SHERMAN:  Yes.  Of course, yes.  And this was reported and someone who

spoke to Trump right at the time when it was reported said he went

completely nuclear but telling him that he didn`t want to leave Marla

Maples right at that point because then he would look like he was, you

know, the cheated on spouse. 


He bided his time and waited about a year and then he formally separated

with her about a year before the prenup`s terms expired.  So, he basically

waited until this deal was about to expire and then left her so she only

got the $1 million. 


O`DONNELL:  Tim O`Brien, is this one of the moments with Gabe revealing a

prenuptial agreement of wife number two in Trump world that you have every

right to now believe that eventually all – it`s all going to come out. 

The documents will eventually find their way to the surface. 


TIM O`BRIEN, MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR:  One can only hope.  I think what we`re

getting obviously is the bookends of Donald Trump from 1993 and Donald

Trump to the presidency and what happened in between.  There was a lot of

smoke and mirrors. 


You know, he not only was out of – running out of money at the time they

struck that prenup, he was almost personally bankrupt.  He had to go to the

family and ask them for money.  And even his own siblings didn`t want to

give him a dime.  They ended up forcing him to pledge his future share of

Fred`s estate in order to get enough money to keep him from going bankrupt. 


And I think all of the documentation that`s been coming out piecemeal from

the, you know, early `90s to the present shows that there is much less

there than he ever said.  And I think the business press knew that for a

long time.  I think there were shades of it out there, but no one ever

actually knew how deeply bad it was, and it was bad. 


O`DONNELL:  One thing that I get, Tim, from your reporting for years on

Donald Trump, Gabe, from your reporting, including this.  Michael Wolff`s

reporting is this consistent picture – the picture is consistent.  As to

the specifics of every little tiny bit of evidence that has accumulated to

create this picture, there is no conflict – no one`s come out with a

different image of Donald Trump that conflicts with the guy – 




O`DONNELL:  – who would do this kind of prenup and who would behave the

way he does in his marriages, as you`ve reported in your book, as Michael

reports in his. 


SHERMAN:  Yes, I mean, this is – this is sort of the – I mean, this is

the strange situation where it`s all on the surface.  America knew and

knows who this man was, and yet they still elected him president.  So I

think there`s no mystery as to who Donald Trump is.  I think we`re just

shading in lines of the portrait and making a more detailed picture as more

and more of these documents come out. 


O`BRIEN:  It`s also a reminder of how quickly people forget.  He was sort

of the punch line of the jokes of the excesses to the `80s and `90s until

“The Apprentice” came along.  And “The Apprentice” completely recast him in

the imagination of most Americans.  That`s what he rode into the presidency



O`DONNELL:  Yes, Ron Klain, everywhere except New York City, where

everybody here in New York City knew what the real Donald Trump was and no

one fell for that, as the voting results showed on election night. 


Ron, to put all of this – this accumulation of new information about

Donald Trump reaching back to a prenup with wife number two into where we

are today in Congress with Congress trying to obtain documents, trying to

obtain documents through subpoena.  The fight – they`re going to have to

fight for every page of these documents through subpoena. 


But is it your belief that eventually, even if it takes another presidency,

two years from now, eventually all of this will come out? 



faster than that.  I think it`s worth remembering that just four weeks ago,

we got Donald Trump`s tax returns from this very same period, from 1985 to

1994, documents that had been secret for 20 years.  So, what you`re seeing

in rapid succession is this information about Trump in this period of time

starting to come to light, the citadel of secrecy starting to unravel. 

It`s no surprise, right? 


The heat is on Trump.  His fixer is in jail, Michael Cohen.  The subpoenas

are flying.  The pressure is on.  Maybe people who were scared of Donald

Trump are just less scared than before. 


In rapid order, we get ten years of tax returns, we get this prenuptial

agreement.  I think the pressure is building.  I think he scares people

less than he used to.  I think he`s got less of an apparatus around him to

keep this stuff secret. 


I think the personal secrets are going to come out and I think the secrets

he`s suppressing from Congress are going to come out in pretty quick order



O`DONNELL:  Ron, one of the things you get from Michael Wolff`s book, which

I think is one of those reinforcing images that was somewhere in our minds

anyway, but he has the real evidence for it and the descriptions of this

kind of attitude from people inside the White House, is that Donald Trump

is going to fight every single thing.  There won`t be one reasonable

accommodation with Congress as this investigation goes on, and he`s willing

to lie about anything at any time.  Congress has never dealt with something

like that. 


KLAIN:  Well, I agree with that, Lawrence, but I also think there is one

interesting point today in this fight over Hope Hicks` documents, which she

has largely refused to turn over, which she has in her possession White

House documents as an ex-White House official.  And so, it`s a reminder

that no matter how hard Trump fights, there are a lot of people around him

who have this paper, who walked out of the building with files, with

records or emails or whatever, and Congress is going to squeeze those



As you heard Steny Hoyer say, contempt vote next week in the Congress.  And

the question is who will take the fall for Trump?  And maybe less and less,

fewer and fewer people will as the pressure mounts. 


O`DONNELL:  Gabe Sherman, on Hope Hicks, what is your expectation of how

she will handle herself in this? 


SHERMAN:  Well, you know, she will – still very loyal to the president,

although she left the White House, she remains very loyal to Donald Trump

and Ivanka Trump and the Trump family.  So I don`t see really any scenario

in which somehow unless she faces extreme legal jeopardy, a contempt vote,

that she would not toe the White House line.  There is no incentive for her

to break ranks. 


O`DONNELL:  You know, Tim, you mentioned that Donald Trump got elected. 

Everybody knew all of these negative things about him.  I think there was a

general picture of negativity that came out during the campaign, but when I

look at the details both in Michael Wolff`s new book and I look into your

book, where you quote him, he`s talking to you directly, you have this on



Donald Trump says to you about wife number two: I was bored when she was

walking down the aisle.  America did not read your book. 


O`BRIEN:  No, that`s true. 


O`DONNELL:  They don`t know details like that. 


O`BRIEN:  What I meant to say is that I think they – “The Apprentice”

actually caused this sort of mass amnesia about this earlier period.  “The

Apprentice” recast him.  Between “The Apprentice” and his presidency, I

agree with you, I don`t think people are reading these kinds of details. 


I think people are paying attention now because they recognize the gravity

of what his presidency means and, of course, the extent to which his

character comes into play.  It`s amazing to me, when he told me that

anecdote about Marla, he was about to get married to Melania.  He had no

reason to scalp his ex-wife in an interview with a journalist.  I, of

course, had to go back to Marla to fact check this.  When I spoke to her on

the phone, she audibly gasped because she was hurt. 


And there is a side of Trump that is so ruthless that he will play cat and

mouse even with ex-wives who are completely petrified of crossing him in

any way. 


SHERMAN:  And I should point out, in the prenup documents I viewed, there

is an extensive nondisclosure provision in the prenup that both parties

agree not to speak about details of the marriage, not to write a memoir,

not to have any public comment about the marriage, and yet here to Donald

Trump with Tim O`Brien basically violating that front and center.  It`s

crazy, you know, but if she did that, if Marla Maples gave an interview and

said anything about Donald Trump, you know he would have lawyers on her

like, you know, day and night. 


O`DONNELL:  Gabe Sherman, Tim O`Brien, Ron Klain, thank you all for

starting us off tonight. 


When we come back, there are so many revealing passages in Michael Wolff`s

new book about the out of control Trump White House.  Michael Wolff is

returning tonight.  We have much more ground to cover tonight with Michael

Wolff.  That`s next. 




O`DONNELL:  Michael Wolff`s first book about the Trump White House, “Fire

and Fury,” rocketed to the top of the best-seller list worldwide because it

exposed the chaos inside the Trump White House more fully than any

reporting had before it.  Then came Bob Woodward`s bestselling “Fear”,

reinforcing the image of the Trump White House chaos and adding reporting

on some new details, including Trump`s lawyer John Dowd calling the

president an F-ing liar. 


Now, Michael Wolff is back with volume two of his study of the Trump White

House, “Siege: Trump Under Fire.”  And the reporting in this book shows the

Trump White House even more out of control and the president as committed

as ever to his fundamental strategy, according to the book, of lying his

way out of everything. 


Michael Wolff reports, among many other things, on the secret ingredient to

the most mysterious marriage in Washington, Mr. and Mrs. Kellyanne Conway. 

Michael Wolff reports, quote: Kellyanne Conway`s defense of the president`s

lies had additionally seemed to bring her into a public confrontation with

her husband, George Conway, a partner at the Wall Street firm Wachtell,

Lipton, Rosen & Katz, one of the wealthiest and most prestigious firms in

the country. 


George Conway now spends most of his day attacking Donald Trump on Twitter. 

Michael Wolff reports: The Conways public disagreement was some

acquaintances and colleagues believe itself a lie, one in which the couple

conspired to distance themselves from Trump`s lies.  “They are of one mind

about Trump,” said a friend of the couple`s.  “They hate him.” 


In the book, Michael Wolff finds some of Donald Trump`s most private

thoughts revealed to Eric Whitestone who was part of the production team of

Donald Trump`s TV show, who became known as the Trump whisperer, because he

was the most calming influence on Donald Trump on that set.  In the book,

Donald Trump talks about his family with Eric Whitestone. 


Quote: He kept saying how much he wished he`d never given Don Jr. his name

and wished he could take it back, recalled Whitestone.  Once we were with a

bunch of people and Don Jr. suggested that Trump had been to two Yankees

games in a row where they had lost so maybe his father was bad luck and he

went ape. 


Why the F would you say that in front of these people?  These F-ing people

are going to go out into the world and tell everyone Trump is bad luck. 


Don Jr. was practically crying.  Dad, I`m so sorry, I`m so sorry, dad. 


And at the hospital when his grandchild was born, Don Jr.`s kid, Trump

said: Why the “F” do I have to go see this kid?  Don Jr. has too many F-ing



Joining our discussion once again is Michael Wolff.  He`s now the author of

“Siege: Trump Under Fire.”


Michael, there are so many things I want to cover here.  Let`s start from

Donald Trump Jr. and what we learned from Eric Whitestone, who fascinates

me as a source.  I mean, there`s a lot of discussion in the media about

your sources.  Eric Whitestone is right there by name on every one of those

quotes, credibly in his physical position with Trump on that show, in a

position to hear these kinds of things. 


What did you gather about – about Donald Trump`s life within his own

family from that kind of information? 



you for having me back.  It`s the strangest family and the most

dysfunctional family and strangely the most dedicated family.  They`re

dedicated to a man who really could care less about them. 


I mean, he`s terrible to both of his sons.  His other daughter, Tiffany,

barely exists. 


His young – young son, Barron, who theoretically lives with him, has

become a major issue in his marriage.  I think there are many issues.  But

this is a major issue because he really doesn`t – he doesn`t get along

with his son, he doesn`t communicate with his son, he doesn`t – his son is

not – effectively not at all a part of his life, even though he lives with



O`DONNELL:  You also report the incredibly peculiar detail that Donald

Trump is reportedly jealous of his son`s height because at 12 years old,

he`s apparently growing up close to Donald Trump`s height. 


WOLFF:  Jealous of everyone`s height.  He never lets himself be in a

photograph with someone taller than he is.  Height is his – is one of his

techniques.  He uses his height – and, remember, Donald Trump is a very

large man. 


O`DONNELL:  You talk about a Trump White House where – by the time you get

to this passage of Kellyanne Conway and her husband actually sharing a

feeling of hatred for Donald Trump, you`ve revealed all sorts of people

working in the White House who have hatred for Donald Trump, including Don

McGahn, most importantly possibly because he could be the most damaging

witness against Donald Trump eventually. 


WOLFF:  I`ve certainly never met anyone who has worked with Donald Trump or

in – come in contact with Donald Trump on more than “X” number of

occasions who does not view him with incredulity and contempt. 


O`DONNELL:  And the – one of the things about McGahn is that we are

watching a public drama in which McGahn by public appearances seems loyal

to Donald Trump because he`s refusing to comply with congressional



What do you see in that public drama? 


WOLFF:  Well, I mean, I think –


O`DONNELL:  Given your reporting about what Don McGahn actually thinks of

Donald Trump. 


WOLFF:  Right.  I think that there`s – that there`s two things.  I mean,

if the president – you know, this becomes a very – a kind of technical –

a technical legal process.  The president says you cannot – you cannot

testify.  So, you`re – you`re caught for the moment until someone else

makes you testify. 


So, that`s the game that we`re – that we`re playing now.  The president

will say you can`t testify, and everyone then is waiting for some other

authority for force them to testify.  And then they will testify and then

the edifice will begin to crumble. 


O`DONNELL:  And that`s – you think that`s true for Hope Hicks and all of

them across the board? 


WOLFF:  Absolutely.  They will – I mean, one of the things – actually I

have some testimony before the – before the special counsel and – and the

witnesses asked about Hope Hicks.  Would she – how loyal – what was her

level of loyalty to the president?  Very high, said the witness. 


Would she lie for the president?  Remember, she had said, you know, she had

told white lies on his – his behalf.  And the witness said, well – that -

- that this witness thought she would go to a certain degree, but she

certainly wasn`t going to go to jail for this – for this president. 


So I think loyalty, even with Hope Hicks, has firm limits. 


O`DONNELL:  We were talking about wife number two in the beginning of the

show.  You write about her, but you also write about wife number three, the

first lady, extensively.  And your reporting has the first lady in effect

living in Maryland, not really living in the White House –


WOLFF:  Exactly. 


O`DONNELL:  She got a house for her parents in Maryland and she and her son

live mostly in Maryland and that`s close to the school that her son and the

president`s son goes to? 


WOLFF:  Yes, that`s what I understand.  Yes. 


O`DONNELL:  And the mystery about – we have to go to a break for a second. 

Could you stay for another segment after this break? 


WOLFF:  I`d be delighted. 


O`DONNELL:  The mystery of the first lady in the hospital for about a week,

you approach that mystery in the book but you never quite solve what that

was about. 


WOLFF:  I – I didn`t, and nor has anyone else, but it remains a – one of

those – those very interesting puzzles of the last year in office. 


O`DONNELL:  All right.  Let`s squeeze in a break here.  When we come back,

we have more with Michael Wolff. 


Michael, thanks for staying. 




O`DONNELL:  And we`re back now with Michael Wolff, the author of his now

second inside the White House book, “Siege: Trump Under Fire.”


And, Michael, Jared Kushner is a major figure in this book and in the Trump

White House.  I want to show you this excerpt from a rare video interview

that he did this weekend with Jonathan Swan of Axios.  Let`s just go

straight to it.




JONATHAN SWAN, REPORTER, AXIOS:  Obviously I`m Jewish, you`re Jewish.  To

what extent does your Judaism inform, you know, how you live your life?


JARED KUSHNER, SENIOR WHITE HOUSE ADVISOR:  Well, I think the religion that

I have, Judaism, is probably similar to what a lot of other religions give

to people, which is a code of values where you have to be judging yourself

and make sure that what you`re doing always is the right thing and you feel

good about it.


SWAN:  Has your father-in-law ever challenged your values?


KUSHNER:  In what regard? 


SWAN:  Well, I mean, when you were on the campaign, you had “Access

Hollywood.”  There`s been other things you`ve had to deal with since then. 

I mean, like, it`s a sensitive question, but I mean it in the sense of

you`re a son-in-law, you`re a husband, you`re a senior adviser, does it

make it sometimes harder to tell him the truth? 


KUSHNER:  No, I think he respects people who are willing to be honest with

him.  When I do disagree, you`ll never read about it in the press and I

won`t say it publicly.  But I will say there`s a lot more things I agree

with him on than disagree.




O`DONNELL:  Your reaction to that, Michael?



but think of the – there`s a passage in my book about in the `90s when

Donald Trump was at odds with Jerry Nadler, who is now the head of the

House Judiciary Committee.  And he – too many people expressed his view of

Jerry Nadler very succinctly.  He was a fat little Jew.


O`DONNELL:  There`s also the passage where he was talking about Michael

Cohen, and he says, in your book, “The Jews always flip.”


WOLFF:  Yes.  This is in August 2018 when Michael Cohen agrees to testify,

when David Pecker, the head of the National Enquirer, agrees to testify and

Allen Weisselberg, the CFO of the Trump Organization.  When Trump hears

this, he says, “The Jews always flip.”


O`DONNELL:  It`s a very casual anti-Semitism that he has.


WOLFF:  Yes.  It`s – you might say without in any way rationalizing it,

that it`s a 1957 kind of anti-Semitism, yes.


O`DONNELL:  And does Jared Kushner pick up any of that?  Does he aware of

that?  Does he hear Donald Trump say things like “the Jews always flip?”


WOLFF:  I don`t know what he hears, but Donald Trump is not one to edit

himself in front of anyone.


O`DONNELL:  Including on something like that, he wouldn`t pause even if

Jared Kushner were standing there?


WOLFF:  I`ve been in the room with Donald Trump and Jared Kushner.  I have

not heard in that context the President using anti-Semitic language.  But I

did hear – there was – once when I was in the room, the President, Jared

was there and the President was speculating on how famous he was.  Was he

the most famous man in the world?  And suddenly he went, “Jared, am I the

most famous man in the world?”


So there is a kind of – it`s – that`s – among all relationships with

Donald Trump are strange relationships.  That one too is strange. 


O`DONNELL:  I think you were probably completely unsurprised by the way the

President handled himself during the Mueller investigation, based on your

own reporting in the first book.  He seems to be handling himself pretty

much exactly the same way in relation to the House Of Representatives`

investigation, just block, block, block everything he possibly can. 


O`DONNELL:  That`s true, but there`s actually an interesting thing because

in the beginning of the investigation, actually for the – basically for

the first year of the investigation, he made all his lawyers tell him that

he was not a target, that he was not being investigated, that it was all

good, that it was going to – I mean, he makes them – he literally – you

literally have to say what he wants to hear.  And then on that basis they

just turned over everything.


It was just essentially a complete document dump to the special counsel. 

And it – so that was sort of – sort of one side of the coin, I`m not

going to think about it like that.  Now, the other side of the coin is –

screw them.  Now, we`re not going to give them anything.


It`s like the classic Donald Trump thing is, is I will be – I will heap

flattery on you until I realize I can`t make the sale and then I`ll sue



O`DONNELL:  And we didn`t even get to Rudy Giuliani in this book.  It`s the

best portrait of Rudy Giuliani I`ve read.  Michael Wolff, thank you very

much for joining us tonight.


WOLFF:  Thank you.


O`DONNELL:  Really appreciate it.  The book is “Siege: Trump Under Fire.”


Up next, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez says that more of her Democratic

colleagues in the House in swing districts are now turning to be open to

impeachment.  She says the tide is turning toward impeachment.  That`s





O`DONNELL:  Today, freshman Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez told

NBC`s Kelly O`Donnell that she thinks the tide is turning in favor of





REP. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ (D), NEW YORK:  I personally heard it in my

home district, but I`m also hearing it a lot from a lot of swing district

members I think are hearing it more.  At least the openness to having an

inquiry is there and investigating a lot of what we are seeing and what –

a lot of what has already transpired with the administration. 


KELLY O`DONNELL, NBC NEWS REPORTER:  And do you think that might push

leadership to the table?


OCASIO-CORTEZ:  Of course, I would hope so, and I think that the tide is

turning with the public and seeing exactly what is going on with the

President advising witnesses to ignore legally binding subpoenas, with a

lot of our hearings and everything holding up.  I think that, at this

point, it is getting to become so overwhelming that we need to uphold the

rule of law and the constitution of the United States.




O`DONNELL:  Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is not a member of the

House Judiciary Committee which has jurisdiction over impeachment.  Our

next guest, freshman Congresswoman Lucy McBath, is a member of that

committee and is from one of those swing districts that Congresswoman

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez was just talking about.


She won her House seat in a Republican district in Georgia.  And after this

break, we`ll ask Congresswoman Lucy McBath where she stands on impeachment

and how she balances that with the other important issues she is trying to

advance in the House Judiciary Committee, including gun safety.




O`DONNELL:  Here`s what presidential candidate Joe Biden said about

impeachment today in New Hampshire.




JOE BIDEN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE:  If they get stonewalled and can`t

make any progress in any of that, then I think they have no alternative but

to move to an impeachment proceeding to determine because then they have

the ability to get more information.




O`DONNELL:  Joining us now is freshman Democratic Congresswoman Lucy McBath

from Georgia.  She`s a member of the House Judiciary Committee which has

jurisdiction over impeachment, and she is the mother of Jordan Davis, who

was a victim of gun violence.  Thank you very much for joining us tonight. 

I really appreciate it.



I appreciate being with you.


O`DONNELL:  First of all, let`s start with as a Judiciary Committee member,

you know what everyone wants to know is, where do you stand on impeachment



O`DONNELL:  Well, I get this question a lot, Lawrence, and, of course,

being a member of Judiciary and being a member of Congress, we do have

responsibility for Congressional Oversight.  That means that this is a

process, and a process that still is not complete yet.


We have put forth subpoenas.  There are still people that need to testify

before us, but make, you know, there`s no excuse, though, that in the

Congressional Oversight, you know, we have to make sure that we`re

following every process possible because no one is above the rule of law.


We definitely know that based upon the Mueller report, there has been some

obstructive behavior by the President and we have to make sure that we are

bringing this administration to task.  We have to make sure that all of the

truth of the report of the investigation comes forth to the American



So at this point, I cannot say that I am there yet, but do I have to say,

let the cards fall where they may.  At the end of our full and complete

investigation, I agree with Chairman Nadler, we still need to continue to

carry out the due process and making sure that no one is above the rule of



O`DONNELL:  And I know you`re trying to keep the Judiciary Committee also

working on other matters.  You introduced gun safety legislation today. 




O`DONNELL:  What is new in what you`re introducing today? 


MCBATH:  Well, my bill basically would empower law enforcement to be able

to ensure that individuals that are posing risks to themselves or others,

that they don`t have access to firearms.  This is the very same legislation

that had bipartisan support in Congress on the Senate side.


This is Senator Blumenthal`s and Senator Graham`s legislation.  And so all

I`m actually doing is reintroducing this legislation.  It had great

bipartisan support then.  I`m hoping that my colleagues will follow suit

this time.


Basically what this legislation does is it allows the family members along

with law enforcement and the judge to determine any individual that might

be exhibiting behaviors that are – if an individual`s in crisis, that they

can determine whether or not this person should actually have access to



If they should not at this time, those firearms can be confiscated from

them for a time that might be deemed, you know, appropriate.  And then when

those firearms are returned to them, if and when, they must pass a federal

background check to actually have those firearms return to them.


O`DONNELL:  What does Chairman Nadler tell you about scheduling legislation

like this while balancing it with the investigative mission of the

committee now and what could the impeachment process of the committee?


O`DONNELL:  Of course, Chair Nadler says that we need to continue to do our

work.  We can talk and chew gum at the same time.  So basically, we`re

going to continue with the, you know, with the investigation, making sure

that we are following all of the processes.  But also the American people

are very concerned about the every day policies that affect them daily.


And so, we`ll continue to do our work in the Committee.  We`ll continue to

stay focussed because that`s what the American public deserves.


O`DONNELL:  Congressman Lucy McBath, thank you very much for joining us



MCBATH:  Thank you.


O`DONNELL:  And whenever I see you, I always have to say that I remain

sorry for your loss of your son Jordan which I know is what inspired you to

go into politics.  Thank you very much for joining us.


MCBATH:  Thank you.


O`DONNELL:  And when we come back, a new impeachable offense by Donald

Trump.  That`s next.




O`DONNELL:  President Trump has been violating his oath of office every day

of his presidency in large and small ways.  The oath pledges only two



First, I will faithfully execute the office of the United States.  Donald

Trump has never done that.  He has never faithfully done his job as

president.  The other pledge in the presidential oath of office is to

“preserve, protect and defend the constitution of the United States.” 

Donald Trump cannot preserve, protect or defend a constitution he has never

read and does not understand.


And so, instead of defending the constitution, Donald Trump attacks the

constitution which is for any president both a violation of the President`s

oath of office and a high crime.  Indeed, for the founders there would be

no higher crime a president could commit than attacking the constitution he

is supposed to defend.


And that is what Donald Trump did yesterday with a tweet saying this.  I

believe that if people stoped using or subscribing to AT&T, they would be

forced to make big changes at CNN.”  It is perfectly appropriate that an

impeachable Trump tweet would of course contain a spelling error.


Reaction to his tweet was mild, but the New York Times Peter Baker gave it

an appropriate frame saying, “The President of the United States just

called for an economic boycott on one of the country`s largest

communications firms as a way of pressuring a media organization to cover

him in a way that he approves of.”


In other words, the President just attacked the first amendment of the

constitution.  The President`s sworn duty is to stand up to people who

attack the constitution.  His duty is to defend the constitution, but this

President is the country`s most relentless attacker of the constitution.


If the House Democrats include this latest impeachable offense by the

President in their current investigation of the President, they can call as

their chief witness a former member of the board of Time Warner who can

testify about the President`s record of “public animus” towards CNN when

Time Warner which includes CNN was merging with AT&T.


That member of the board actually submitted an under oath affidavit

objecting to the Justice Department`s attempt to block the merger.  In his

affidavit, the distinguished member of the board identified himself as a

former attorney general of the United States.  And before that, a former

deputy attorney general, and before that an assistant attorney general and

his private sector experience included 14 years as the general counsel at



So he submitted his affidavit as an expert in telecommunications and in

federal law enforcement.  And he said under oath that the Trump Justice

Department`s interference with the merger, “was inconsistent with decades

of settled anti-trust law and the Department of Justice Justice`s own

internal merger guidelines, and bore no relationship to how the media and

telecommunications market places actually function.”


He complained that the Trump Justice Department would not “engage in a

meaningful discussion.”  He said that the Trump Justice Department seemed

to be taking legal action because of, “The President`s prior public animus

towards CNN and this merger.”  He said that the Trump Justice Department`s

legal position was, “the product not of a well-versed substantive analysis,

but rather political or other motivation.”


As the former attorney general, that is disturbing to me.  That former

attorney general was William Barr who signed that affidavit in February of

2018 under oath.


AT&T then won its case against the Trump Justice Department and the merger

was completed.


On the President yesterday returned via tweet to what William Barr once

called his “public animus towards CNN,” William Barr stayed silent this

time.  Attorney general William Barr did not follow his oath of office and

raise his voice in defense of the constitution against the president of the

United States who attacked the constitution yesterday in a grotesque

attempt to crush the first amendment rights of a news organization.


Another day, another impeachable offense.  That is tonight`s LAST WORD.

“THE 11TH HOUR” with Brian Williams starts now.







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