Warren calls for Trump’s impeachment. TRANSCRIPT: 4/19/19, The Last Word w/ Lawrence O’Donnell.

Guests:
Madeleine Dean, Lou Correa, Adam Klasfeld, Lisa Graves
Transcript:

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

 

RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC HOST:  Just to recap something that happened on our

air this hour, Democratic presidential candidate and Massachusetts Senator

Elizabeth Warren tonight becoming the first 2020 presidential candidate and

she`s a leading candidate to call for impeachment proceedings to begin in

the House specifically on the basis of the evidence produced in the Mueller

report about the president and obstruction of justice.

 

Elizabeth Warren is not the kind of candidate who would build a campaign

around this. This is not the way that she has been campaigning thus far,

she says. She told me here on the air that she came to that revelation

after herself reading all the way through the report and finding the

evidence overwhelming.

 

That does it for us tonight. We will see you again on Monday. Now, it`s

time for “THE LAST WORD” with Lawrence O`Donnell.

 

Good evening, Lawrence.

 

LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, MSNBC HOST:  Good evening, Rachel. I was riveted to

that interview. You took Elizabeth Warren through every question that we`re

all wondering about, how did she come to this position, which she had

already tweeted, I think, earlier today.

 

MADDOW:  This afternoon.

 

O`DONNELL:  She got out there right away. And then that hypothetical you

gave her, Rachel, about if you could see into the future and actually know

that this process of impeachment would be actually politically harmful for

Democrats.

 

MADDOW:  That it wouldn`t result in him being removed, that the Senate

wouldn`t go with it.

 

O`DONNELL:  Wouldn`t result in him being removed actually, yes. Not to get

in the political harm thing but wouldn`t – in other words, a Clinton

version of impeachment. Is it worth doing? And her answer to that was so

powerful.

 

MADDOW:  Yes. Solidly yes. It`s the right thing to do because it`s the

right thing to do. You to worry – let the chips fall where they may. It`s

interesting to – we know – you and I cover these guys and we know all

these candidates, not only for how they`re running, but for how they have

campaigned throughout their career and the kinds of people that they are.

 

I would not have expected that Elizabeth Warren would be the one who would

be coming out and saying impeachment is the right thing to do here. It`s so

distant from the kind of campaign that she`s running and the kind of issues

she likes to talk about.

 

But she made a case here. She`s just moved by the evidence. And you`ve got

to stand up and say this is wrong. It`s a – it will be interesting to see

if others follow.

 

O`DONNELL:  Yeah. I mean, basically, yes, she turned every page of that

report and you just don`t see this as the same way you saw it before you

started reading it. That`s true for all of us who have been reading it.

 

MADDOW:  I felt that way myself.

 

O`DONNELL:  Yeah.

 

MADDOW:  Yeah.

 

 

O`DONNELL:  Thank you, Rachel. I really appreciate it.

 

MADDOW:  Thanks, Lawrence.

 

O`DONNELL:  Thank you. Well, at the end of this hour tonight, we`re going

to show you something that many of you might already know about, and that

is that Sarah Sanders was caught lying in the Mueller report. She`s

actually in the Mueller report where she is exposed as a liar in the

Mueller report. Lying in the press briefing room, something you`ve already

known that she does and does pretty much every time she shows up there.

 

But there`s something about what she actually said to the Mueller

investigators that has been mostly overlooked and possibly entirely

overlooked in the glee generally that`s out there in the news media about

Sarah Sanders having to admit to the Mueller investigators that she wasn`t

telling the truth, something she does every day.

 

Here`s the thing. In admitting to the Mueller investigators that she lied,

she actually lied about her lie. And we will show you that. We will show

you the proof of her lying about her lie on video at the end of this hour.

It`s one of the minor points of the Mueller report and so we`re going to

save it till the end of the hour.

 

You really want to see this. There`s a detail in this that has not been

explored by the people who have been pointing it out today. We will get to

that at the end of the hour. There is so much more to cover before that.

 

Attorney General William Barr today insulted Congress after insulting

America`s Intelligence yesterday by telling us that President Trump fully

cooperated with the Mueller investigation an hour and a half before we

began reading the hundreds of pages of ways in which President Trump did

not cooperate with the investigation, refused to speak to the

investigators, and repeatedly fired the special prosecutor.

 

The Mueller report shows clearly that President Trump fired Robert Mueller

more than once. And the only reason Robert Mueller kept working on the case

is that the person Donald Trump ordered to fire Robert Mueller didn`t do

it. But in Donald Trump`s mind, he definitely fired Robert Mueller.

 

The Mueller report volume two, page 85. On Saturday, June 17, 2017, the

president called McGahn and directed him to have the special counsel

removed. McGahn was at home and the president was at Camp David. In

interviews with this office, McGahn recalled that the president called him

at home twice and on both occasions directed him to call Rosenstein and say

that Mueller had conflicts that precluded him from serving as special

counsel.

 

On the first call, McGahn recalled that the president said something like,

“you got to do this. You got to call Rod.” McGahn said he told the

president that he would see what he could do. McGahn was perturbed by the

call and did not intend to act on the request.

 

When the president called McGahn a second time to follow up on the order to

call the Department of Justice, McGahn recalled that the president was more

direct, saying something like, “Call Rod, tell Rod that Mueller has

conflicts and can`t be the special counsel.” McGahn recalled the president

telling him “Mueller has to go” and “Call me back when you do it.”

 

McGahn understood the president to be saying that the special counsel had

to be removed by Rosenstein. To end the conversation with the president,

McGahn left the president with the impression that McGahn would call

Rosenstein. McGahn recalled that had already said no to the president`s

request and he was worn down, so he just wanted to get off the phone.

 

And so Donald Trump fired Robert Mueller. And Robert Mueller stayed on the

job. William Barr knew that that passage was in the Mueller report when he

told us yesterday that Donald Trump cooperated fully with the Mueller

investigation. Today it was Congress` turn to be directly insulted by

William Barr.

 

Democratic congressional leaders immediately turned down William Barr`s

offer to them that they alone be able to see some of the redacted material

in the Mueller report. The chairman of the House Judiciary Committee, which

has jurisdiction over impeachment, immediately and correctly according to

all congressional precedent refused.

 

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

 

REP. JERRY NADLER (D-NY):  I`ve been invited to read the less redacted

version of the report on condition that we take no notes and tell nobody

about what we read. What`s the point of that? Congress is a collective

body. And if I read something and I can`t tell the other committee members

about it or the other members of Congress, it`s useless.

 

That`s – frankly, it`s insulting the Congress. We will work to have an

accommodation with the attorney general, but in terms of seeing the rest of

the report and the underlying documents. But it cannot be under such

restrictions that we cannot function.

 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over):  Let me ask you –

 

NADLER:  And that`s why we need the subpoena.

 

(END VIDEOTAPE)

 

O`DONNELL:  And after that, Chairman Nadler subpoenaed the full unredacted

Mueller report. The Justice Department reacted to the subpoena, saying,

“Congressman Nadler`s subpoena is premature and unnecessary.”

 

Everything the attorney general has done with the Mueller report has been

designed to delay Congress`s ability to deal with the Mueller report. The

attorney general used the first month of the Mueller report`s life to

complete the redaction process while making multiple public statements that

completely mischaracterize the Mueller report as being favorable to the

president.

 

Then the attorney general released the redacted report on the eve of

Passover knowing that Congress was out of town for two weeks on the Easter

recess. That means William Barr could not be scheduled to testify to the

House and Senate about the Mueller report until the first week of May.

 

And now it is very likely that William Barr will fight the House Judiciary

Committee`s subpoena for the full report in court and that means it could

take several months or even the rest of the Trump presidency for the

Judiciary Committee to obtain the full unredacted report through that

subpoena.

 

The attorney general knew that his positive spin of the Mueller report had

an expiration date. He always knew that his positive spin on the Mueller

report would not survive the first hour of people actually reading even the

redacted version of the Mueller report. But now the attorney general knows

the only Trump protecting tactic that he has left is delay.

 

But some members of Congress have already read enough of the Mueller

report. Presidential candidate, Senator Elizabeth Warren, said this tonight

with Rachel Maddow.

 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

 

MADDOW:  If you could see into the future and that`s how it would go, the

House says yes, Senate says no, would you still think that it was the right

thing to do for the country and that it was a worthy use of resources and

time?

 

SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN (D-MA) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE:  Yes, I would. I think

that each person has to stand up and be counted in a democracy. I think

that`s why we`re elected to the House and to the Senate. And there are

times when it`s beyond politics, when it is a point of principle to stand

up and say no president can do this.

 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

 

O`DONNELL:  Senator Warren earlier today had issued a statement, a tweet

actually saying that she favored impeachment of the president and appeared

with Rachel tonight to explain her position, favouring impeachment of the

president. Two other presidential candidates supported impeachment today.

 

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

 

JULIAN CASTRO, PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE:  I think it would be perfectly

reasonable for Congress to open up those proceedings. It`s clear that Bob

Mueller in his report left that in the hands of Congress.

 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over):  Should the House pursue impeachment?

 

MAYOR PETE BUTTIGIEG, SOUTH BEND, INDIANA:  I`ll leave that to the House.

That`s for Congress to work out. I`m pretty sure he deserves to be

impeached. But Congress will have to figure out procedurally what to do.

 

(END VIDEOTAPE)

 

O`DONNELL:  The House Judiciary Committee has jurisdiction over impeachment

and the chairman is already planning a series of investigative hearings,

which he`s not ready over to call impeachment hearings.

 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

 

NADLER (voice-over):  We will have major hearings and Barr and Mueller are

just the first. We will call a lot of other people. We`ll see who they are.

And we will get to the bottom of this and we will educate the country as to

what went on.

 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

 

O`DONNELL:  Leading off our discussion tonight, two Democratic members of

the House Judiciary Committee, the committee that has jurisdiction over

impeachment, Congresswoman Madeleine Dean of Pennsylvania and Congressman

Lou Correa of California. Thank you both for joining us tonight.

 

We`ve been speaking to members of your committee all week because I saw

basically what was going to happen to you, that this was going to be handed

in effect to your committee and the pressure was going to be on about how

to address the impeachment question.

 

And Congresswoman Dean, I`d like to get your reaction to what you heard

Elizabeth Warren saying tonight.

 

REP. MADELEINE DEAN (D-PA):  Well, it`s certainly – it certainly is taking

the temperature of where we are in this country and the gravity of this

moment, and the gravity of the terrible things that are revealed in the

redacted report. Imagine what we haven`t seen in that which is redacted.

 

And it reminds me of one line that Mueller says in this report very, very

clearly. No man in this country is so high that he is above the law. That

is the place where we are in this country. There`s tremendous evidence of

obstruction of justice by this president. And I think Robert Mueller very

carefully said that while he will respect, I suppose, the decision by the

Department of Justice not to prosecute a president in office, criminal

investigation can go forward.

 

That`s what the House Judiciary will do, take a look at – talk to Attorney

General Barr who has proven himself not to be an independent voice, and we

will also talk to Mr. Mueller, whom I`m very much looking forward to

speaking with.

 

O`DONNELL:  Congresswoman Dean, is there really any point to a hearing with

Attorney General Barr?

 

DEAN:  Absolutely. I think it`s critical that we fully reveal the conflict

that Mr. Barr is under. He began his tenure by offering the president a

false notion that he was exonerated and had that message tweeted out and

talked out throughout the country over the course of the last month.

 

He mischaracterized this report gravely and he knew it. He came to legal

conclusions that are faulty. I think he needs to be held accountable. He is

the highest law enforcement officer of our country, supposed to be

independent of this president.

 

And, of course, he`s done nothing but be dependent upon this president and

try to hold up the president or cover over distract and distort what

actually has been investigated and uncovered in this critical report.

 

O`DONNELL:  Congressman Correa, you heard Elizabeth Warren an hour earlier

tonight with Rachel Maddow say that she started reading the report

yesterday. By the time she finished it, she decided – late last night, she

decided that the president should be impeached, that your committee should

be begin impeachment hearings. Is that your view?

 

REP. LOU CORREA (D-CA):  Well, what I – my view is when I go out into my

district, I find people very confused and they ask me, “Congressman Correa,

what is going on? We don`t know what to believe or who to believe.” One day

the president says exoneration and just this morning he said that the

Mueller report was, my words, a bunch of lies.

 

Separation of powers, it`s our responsibility and Congress and Judiciary to

tell people to do the oversight to let people know what exactly is going on

in our government. Let`s clear up all this confusion. We start with the

facts. Mueller report has a lot of redactions. I`m very happy that Chairman

Nadler is calling for full complete disclosure of that report.

 

I want to see Mr. Mueller come in. I want to see Mr. Barr come in. I want

to see the people that are relevant in this investigation to talk publicly

in front of our committee. You know why? Because the American public

deserves to have the truth. And I want to make sure this investigation by

the Judiciary is held in public. That`s our first step.

 

Find out what is really going on in our government. You know why? Because

this country is deeply divided. People don`t know who to believe. We want

to do – the only thing we want to do in Judiciary is tell people the

truth.

 

And then based on our investigation, we`ll ask the question, is impeachment

relevant? Is it necessary? Is it, you know, the thing to do at this point?

But first, we have to investigate each and every fact out there to make

sure that the public knows what is going on.

 

 

O`DONNELL:  Congressman Correa, has Chairman Nadler given you committee

members any sense of a timetable of when you will get to the impeachment

question, meaning will you have a hearing with Attorney General Barr, a

hearing with Robert Mueller, perhaps a few more hearings, and is there a

point at the calendar, is there a number of hearings after which Chairman

Nadler will convene the committee to the discuss the question of have they

reached the impeachment threshold?

 

CORREA:  I think Chairman Nadler like all of us want to get to that

question. However, given that it`s every time he issues a subpoena, he gets

push back. I think it`s going to be a challenge and it`s going to be a very

long time before we will get all the data, all the information, all the

facts in front of us, all the facts in front of the American public to ask

that question.

 

O`DONNELL:  Congresswoman Dean, I want to ask you the same question that

Rachel asked Elizabeth Warren which is that if the House Judiciary

Committee were to vote articles of impeachment and if the Democrats and the

House of Representatives were to vote in favor of impeachment and send that

to the Senate, would it be worth it even if the Senate did not then vote to

convict and remove the president?

 

DEAN:  Well, absolutely. Time is always right to do the right thing. It

reminds me of where we are in this new Congress. We have passed really

important laws, really important bills around gun violence. And some people

say to me, “Why are you so happy about that? The Senate is not going to do

anything with it. Why are you even bothering?” We have a job to do.

 

So investigate this president, we must. Oversight, we must. Pass important

legislation that might save lives, we must. And then put it on the Senate.

We cannot sit on our hands because the Senate is sitting on theirs.

 

O`DONNELL:  Congressman Correa, your constituents – I think the picture

you painted of your constituents and their confusion makes perfect sense

and you cleaned up what the president said today. He actually used

profanity in his tweets in this extraordinary situation.

 

We`re here on television. We cannot actually quote what the president of

the United States has said, according to the conventions of this kind of

television. And how much would you say what the president has to say about

this is part of the confusion of your constituents?

 

CORREA:  I think that`s center. The president seems to move in different

directions every other day. I think that`s what confusing people not only

in my district but throughout this country. You asked earlier how fast

should we get to this question. We need to ask this question as quickly as

possible, as quickly as we can get the evidence in front of us to make the

case.

 

But remember also a bigger question in front of us as well which is a

foreign government meddling in our democratic elections in this country.

And this can happen again in a year. In one year, in about a year, we`re

going to be voting again. And what is the message are we going to send to

Russia, to China, to Iran, to North Korea about meddling in our elections?

 

This is an important question because this is confidence in our democracy.

This is what we`re talking about. And we need to make sure that we get to

that question as well. We need to look at those facts, the evidence behind

Russian meddling in the 2016 election and moving forward as well.

 

O`DONNELL:  Robert Mueller`s case against the president –

 

DEAN:  Lawrence –

 

O`DONNELL:  Go ahead, congresswoman. Go ahead.

 

DEAN:  I wanted to echo something that my colleague, Lou, has just talked

about, which is what are our constituents saying and feeling. I was at our

local barber shop today talking to friends and constituents there. I have

to say there is such confusion. But you know what? As a result of beginning

to see the parameters of this report and the grave details of it, three

people in a row said to me, “Please, get at the truth. Get at the truth.

Our democracy is at stake. You have a job to do.”

 

So, they are not being fooled by an attorney general who tries to paper

over or redact over the very wrongdoing and the obstruction of justice by

this president and the administration. They`re getting some clarity on it,

even though the president would not like them to.

 

O`DONNELL:  And you are both members –

 

CORREA:  Madeleine, you`re absolutely right. You`re absolutely right,

Madeleine. We need to get to the truth in front of the public. That`s why

the Judiciary Committee, our investigations, and our hearings are so

important.

 

O`DONNELL:  That`s where we`re going to have to leave it for this segment.

Congresswoman Madeleine Dean, Congressman Lou Correa, members of the all-

important House Judiciary Committee. You too now along with your colleagues

have the responsibility to consider the issue of impeachment. Thank you

very much for joining us tonight. Please come back in the future. We really

appreciate it.

 

DEAN:  Thanks, Lawrence.

 

CORREA:  Thank you.

 

O`DONNELL:  Thank you. When we come back, much of the focus has been on the

obstruction of justice portion of the Mueller report. That is only half of

the Mueller report. Part one, volume one of the Mueller report tells the

story of the Russian attack on our election and Trump contacts with Russia,

Trump family contacts with Russia, Trump campaign contacts with Russia. How

much in that portion of the Mueller report is possible fuel for

impeachment?

 

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

 

O`DONNELL:  Most of the discussion of impeachment in the last 24 hours has

concentrated on volume two of the Mueller report about the president`s

obstruction of justice. But there is more than enough in volume one of the

Mueller report to produce articles of impeachment. This is in volume one of

the Mueller report.

 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

 

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES:  Russia, if you`re listening,

I hope you`re able to find the 30,000 e-mails that are missing.

 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

 

O`DONNELL:  As it turns out, Russia was listening. And according to the

Mueller report, within approximately five hours of Trump`s statement, GRU

officers targeted for the first time Clinton`s personal office. Then as

president, Donald Trump has repeatedly lied to the world about the Russian

attack on our election.

 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

 

TRUMP:  President Putin really feels and he feels strongly that he did not

meddle in our election.

 

They said they think it`s Russia. I have President Putin. He just said it`s

not Russia. I will say this. I don`t see any reason why it would be.

 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

 

O`DONNELL:  That man took an oath to defend the constitution against all

enemies, foreign and domestic. And he has not lived up to that oath for one

day of his presidency.

 

Joining us now is Jonathan Alter, columnist for the Daily Beast. Jonathan

has reported on every presidential race since 1980. Also with us is Richard

Stengel, former undersecretary of state in the Obama administration. Both

are MSNBC political analysts.

 

Rick, I want to start with you on volume one of the Mueller report, which

has so much about the Russian contacts with the Trump campaign that we

didn`t know before. The obstruction of justice part, I think, is the part

that most people are able to grasp most easily as possible fuel for

impeachment, but there is a lot in volume one.

 

RICK STENGEL, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST, FORMER UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE UNDER

PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA:  Yes. Mueller says there are basically three ways

that Russia tried to infiltrate the Trump campaign. One through messaging,

one through the GRU, hacking the DNC and leaking of those e-mails to the

Trump campaign, and one through all the contacts including the Trump Tower

meeting and the meetings about Moscow.

 

I have to say having gone through the indictments that Mueller did already

of the 13 Russians of the IRA and the GRU, there`s a lot there that

actually wasn`t in the final report. In fact, I was quite surprised that it

didn`t turn out to be more connections. In fact, the reason they didn`t

really collude in the sense that we thought they were was basically because

of incompetence on both sides.

 

I mean, the Russians were the “C” team, the Trump people are the “D” team,

and they couldn`t really figure it out together. The messaging part which

was fascinating is the Russians never came clean. Remember they pretended

to be Americans. They talked to Trump campaign officials about producing

rallies and messaging.

 

They were retweeted by people like Kellyanne Conway and Donald Trump Jr.,

but they never came out from behind their masks. They never revealed that

they were Russians. For the most part, the Trump people didn`t seem to

realize they were.

 

O`DONNELL:  And Jonathan, they seem to have done quite enough using Paul

Manafort`s detailed polling information of where they needed help in which

Electoral College states in the Midwest.

 

JONATHAN ALTER, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST, COLUMNIST FOR THE DAILY BEAST: 

Paul Manafort was colluding with the Russians.

 

O`DONNELL:  Yes.

 

(LAUGHTER)

 

ALTER:  No full stop, if you`re giving them polling information and

information about where to target their efforts. It`s important to

understand that Mueller never said they didn`t collude. He actually has a

paragraph about collusion, saying this isn`t – this term is not relevant

to our inquiry. We`re interested in whether there was a criminal

conspiracy.

 

Collusion is not a legal term. Volume one is full of collusion. It`s all

collusion. When Trump says there was no collusion, that is flatly untrue.

Mueller found it was not a criminal conspiracy, which is a different thing.

But I actually disagree with you a little, Rick, on the coordination.

 

I thought there was a lot of sort of tacit effective fairly competent. It

took them five hours. After the Trump clip that you showed on October 7th

when Trump was on the ropes for the “Access Hollywood” –

 

O`DONNELL:  Yep.

 

ALTER:  – business, it took them one hour before they got the stolen e-

mails. WikiLeaks was working –

 

STENGEL:  Yeah.

 

ALTER:  – with the Russians. WikiLeaks and the Russians are basically the

same thing. That`s what we`re learning. We hope – I think there`s some

hope that with Assange now being, you know, brought to justice, maybe we

can learn more about the WikiLeaks Russian connections.

 

O`DONNELL:  Let`s listen to what Elizabeth Warren had to say tonight about

her decision to support impeachment today after reading the Mueller report

yesterday.

 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

 

WARREN:  This is about a point of principle. The report is absolutely clear

that a foreign government attacked our electoral system to help Donald

Trump. He welcomed that help. And then when it was investigated by our own

federal authorities, Donald Trump took multiple steps to try to obstruct

justice.

 

You know, this is one of those moments when I get it, that there are people

who think politically no, it`s going to be too hard to do this. This isn`t

about politics. This isn`t even specifically about Donald Trump himself.

 

It is about what a president of the United States should be able to do and

what the role of Congress is in saying no, a president does not get to come

in and stop an investigation about a foreign power that attacked this

country or an investigation about his own wrongdoing.

 

Equal justice under law. No one is above the law and that includes the

president of the United States. It is the constitutional responsibility of

Congress to follow through on that.

 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

 

O`DONNELL:  In your careers as journalists, you`ve both covered a lot of

presidential campaigns. We`ve never seen one where one of the campaign

issues is should my opponent the president of the United States, be

impeached.

 

(LAUGHTER)

 

O`DONNELL:  Go ahead.

 

STENGEL:  I mean, full stop, it`s the greatest scandal in American history.

Whether Trump and Russia colluded or not, Russia attacked the American

system. The President of the United States` principal job is defend America

against foreign attacks.  Not only did he not defend us, not only did he

not criticize us, he is leaving the country open to continued attacks by

Russia which are happening right now even while we speak. 

 

O`DONNELL:  He in effect joined the other side on this attack. 

 

ALTER:  There`s no smoking gun?  There`s a smoking artillery range.  I

mean, everything in this report indicates an impeachable offense.  And I

think that she is right not only on a matter of principle.  I think she is

right politically, as well.  And that the conventional wisdom that somehow

there`s going to being this backlash against Democrats if they connect the

dots and the Senate trial I just think is wrong. 

 

You know, these reports are hard for the American people to have absorb. 

They`re busy.  They need to see the movie not just read the book.  And

somebody has to put on a show which is what a trial is even if the

Republicans vote against it.  I think it will be hard for the Republicans

to defend having defended Donald Trump at a Senate trial. 

 

O`DONNELL:  At the same time, Rick, attorney general is doing everything he

can doing to delay the way Jerry Nadler and the committee would like to

proceed and what he knows he is doing is he is delaying the possibility of

impeachment. 

 

STENGEL:  Well, and I would say the same thing in a sense about the

attorney general as I was saying about the President.  The attorney

general`s job to be the attorney general for all the people.  He is being

the defense lawyer for Donald Trump.  And in fact, what he said just before

in his preview was not subjectively wrong, it was objectively false and

untrue.  So I think he is betraying the American people in the same way. 

 

O`DONNELL:  Rick Stengel, Jonathan Alter, thank you both for joining us

tonight. 

 

When we come back, there are still some mysteries inside the Mueller report

including a dozen criminal referrals that we did not know about until we

read that report yesterday.  That`s next. 

 

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

 

O`DONNELL:  At the end of the Mueller report, there is an indication that

more indictments are coming.  In appendix D it says quote “during the

course of the investigation, the office periodically identified evidence of

potential criminal activity that was outside the scope of the special

counsel`s jurisdiction, established by the acting attorney general.  After

consultation with the office of the deputy attorney general, the office

referred that evidence to appropriate law enforcement authorities

principally other components of the department of justice and the FBI. 

Those referrals listed alphabetically by subject are summarized below.” 

 

And then what is below is redacted.  The report lists 14 referrals by

Robert Mueller to other offices.  Only two of those referrals were publicly

known before the release of the report.  The other 12 referrals are

redacted in the report under the category of preventing harm to an ongoing

matter.  The Mueller report says that in deciding whether or not to

prosecute individuals the office quote “considered whether the individuals

were subject to effective prosecution in another jurisdiction.” 

 

So tonight, Congress is wondering about how many of those cases involved

Donald Trump and how many of those cases might involve more impeachable

offenses by Donald Trump.  We`ll consider that next. 

 

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

 

REP. ADAM SCHIFF (R-CA), HOUSE INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE CHAIRMAN:  I think

what we need to do is really take some time to let settle in the

seriousness of what Mueller has set out in this almost a dozen acts or

courses of conduct that could amount to obstruction of justice and

determine what the right course is.  We certainly need to continue the

investigative work to determine are there other ways this President is

compromised or are there other offenses that rise to the level of removal

from office. 

 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

 

O`DONNELL:  Joining our discussion now, Adam Klasfeld, the reporter for

“Courthouse News” who has been covering the release of the Mueller report

and Lisa Graves, a former deputy assistant attorney general and a former

staff member of the Senate Judiciary Committee. 

 

Thank you both for joining us on this Friday night. 

 

Adam, let me start with you.  The speculation there has been some

speculation about what are these 12 redacted referrals that we had no

knowledge of before we read the Mueller report.  This is exactly the kind

of thing you have been studying. 

 

ADAM KLASFELD, REPORTER, COURTHOUSE NEWS:  Right.  And - well, thank you

for having me, Lawrence.  One thing that you mentioned a little bit earlier

was that this list is alphabetical.  And there are two public names, one of

those public names is Michael Cohen and the other public name is Gregory

Craig.  And between them there are two redactions.  There are two other

people. 

 

And here`s where I believe some of the biggest bombshells in the Mueller

report come in the footnotes.  And one footnote happens with a person named

Robert Costello who was a back channel to Rudy Giuliani described in the

press. 

 

Now, he was described in the Mueller report as being the one who told Cohen

sleep well tonight.  You have friends in high places.  And that was right

after the raid.  If you look at the footnote after that quotation, that

it`s cited to a redacted footnote and it says harm to ongoing matter.  Now,

make of that what you will but it says that whatever that email

communicated is something that is ongoing.  And that`s being looked into. 

 

O`DONNELL:  And the implications of that email were that the President

would take care of Michael Cohen possibly pardon somehow he would take care

of him.  And again, it goes to the obstruction of justice issue. 

 

KLASFELD:  what the report went into.  That`s what they – the report

explicitly states that Michael Cohen had believed that this was if he stays

in line, if he stays on message, that he will be taken care of.  He has

friends in high places. 

 

O`DONNELL:  Lisa Graves we have some breaking news at this hour from Don

McGahn actually from his lawyer.  Don McGahn was attacked by Rudy Giuliani

in some of Rudy Giuliani`s public comments because Don McGahn may be the

single most devastating witness against Donald Trump in the Mueller report. 

Don McGahn, White House counsel taking notes in virtually all of his

conversations with the President.  Don McGahn was given the orders to fire

the special prosecutor.  He wouldn`t do it.  Don McGahn is possibly as I

said the most important source in the Mueller report.  So of course, Rudy

Giuliani starred attacking him. 

 

And tonight, Don McGahn`s lawyer William Burck has issued a statement

saying it`s a mystery why Rudy Giuliani feels the needed to re-litigate the

attorney general and deputy attorney general have concluded were not

obstruction but they are accurately described in the report.  Don

nevertheless appreciates that the President gave him the opportunity to be

as White House counsel and assist him with his signature accomplishments. 

And so here we have now the first public crack in the McGahn wall. 

 

LISA GRAVES, FORMER STAFF MEMBER, SENATE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE:  Well, what

you see there is him trying to have it both ways in a way.  I actually

think Don McGahn came out of the report looking very cooperative, very

concerned about the President`s lawlessness.  And now you have a statement

of him basically suggesting he stands by the idea that there was no

obstruction.  I think that`s false. 

 

But also what you see in that statement by Don McGahn is that in fact, a

lot of these Republicans are hanging their hat on the fact that this

President has stacked the U.S. Supreme Court that that`s sort of the

rationale behind standing behind him.  I think that`s one of the things Don

McGahn is alluding to in his statement. 

 

O`DONNELL:  And Adam, also for McGahn, he is the one in the report who says

that the President was always trying to get him to do crazy crap.  He had

to clean that up for TV.  And so McGahn`s characterizations of the

President are absolutely devastating. 

 

KLASFELD:  And that`s why we saw the President go this morning tweeting

about note takers. 

 

O`DONNELL:  Yes. 

 

KLASFELD:  He was very irate about note takers.  And one of those note

takers according to the report is Don McGahn. 

 

O`DONNELL:  Yes.  And Lisa, the President says to Don McGahn at a certain

point, you know, I never had a lawyer who took notes.  McGahn says to him

well now you have a real one.  And it happen to turns out Michael Cohen did

a lot more than take notes.  We have heard the recording, at least one

recording of Michael Cohen`s conversations with Donald Trump. 

 

GRAVES:  That`s right.  It`s astonishing really what Donald Trump`s

perceptions of lawyers is.  He is obviously shape by one of the most

corrupt lawyers of the 20th century.  His lawyer Roy Cohn who was

ultimately disbarred.  That`s his hero.  In essence that`s who he is trying

to make attorney general Barr into.  And Barr seems to be willing to play

the role of Donald Trump`s Roy Cohn.  But fortunately for us, Don McGahn

was not and ultimately Michael Cohen was not willing to play that role to

the end of the theater of Donald Trump. 

 

O`DONNELL:  Lisa Graves, Adam Klasfeld, thank you both for joining us

tonight.  Really appreciate it. 

 

KLASFELD:  Thank you. 

 

GRAVES:  Thank you. 

 

O`DONNELL:  And when we come back, the Mueller report`s revelation about

Sarah Sanders having to admit to them finally she had to admit to someone

that she lied. 

 

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

 

O`DONNELL:  “The Washington Post” is reporting that the President is livid

tonight about the people who work for him or used to work for him who

decided not to lie for him to Robert Mueller`s investigators. 

 

Sarah Sanders is not one of those people.  Sarah Sanders did lie to Robert

Mueller`s team.  When Sarah Sanders spoke to the special prosecutor`s team,

she didn`t tell them the truth, even when she was explaining why she lied

about the FBI in a White House press briefing she actually lied to them

about why she lied.  You have probably already heard today that she was

caught lying and exposed as a liar in the Mueller report, but there`s more

to it. 

 

She actually lied to the Mueller investigation about her lie.  We will show

you the video proof of that next. 

 

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

 

O`DONNELL:  It is not news that Sarah Sanders is a pathological liar who

works for a pathological liar.  That is why as a general rule I do not use

video of Sarah Sanders speaking at White House press briefings.  I don`t

let this program become a delivery system for Trumpian propaganda, which is

the only thing that Sarah Sanders traffics in whenever she speaks, wherever

she speaks. 

 

Many Mueller report readers have been just delighted to find that when

Sarah Sanders was in effect under oath speaking to Robert Mueller`s

investigators, she was forced to admit that she lied.  But that`s not

exactly what happened. 

 

Remember, Sarah Sanders is not just a liar, she is a pathological liar.  So

when she was admitting to the Mueller investigators that she didn`t tell

the truth, she actually lied to them and they knew it.  They knew that many

of the Trump people they interviewed lied to them.  In fact, the Mueller

report specifies that quote “several individuals lied to the office of the

special counsel, which is a crime, and they decided that not all of those

lies were worth prosecuting.” 

 

The Mueller report says quote “the office charged some of those lies as

violations of the federal false-statements statute.” 

 

Sarah Sanders is one of the liars the Mueller team decided not to charge

under the federal false-statements statute.  Page 72 of volume two of the

Mueller report catches Sarah Sanders in the kinds of lies that she tells

every day. 

 

Sarah Sanders spoke to the President about his decision to fire Comey and

then spoke to reporters in a televised press conference.  Sanders told

reporters that the President, the department of justice and bipartisan

members of Congress had lost confidence in Comey.  And, most importantly,

the rank and file of the FBI had lost confidence in their director. 

Accordingly, the President accepted the recommendation of his attorney

general to remove James Comey from his position. 

 

In response to questions from reporters, Sanders said that Rosenstein

decided on his own to review Comey`s performance and that Rosenstein

decided on his own to come to the President on Monday, May 8th, to express

his concerns about Comey. 

 

She was lying about all of that.  Rosenstein did nothing on his own

involving the firing of James Comey.  He wrote a memo that the President

ordered him to write. 

 

The report continues, when a reporter indicated that the vast majority of

FBI agents supported Comey, Sanders said, look, we have heard from

countless members of the FBI that say very different things. 

 

The Mueller team was composed of prosecutors and FBI agents.  And so they

were very curious about why Sarah Sanders lied in her press briefing about

the rank and file of the FBI losing confidence in their director. 

According to the report, she told them that her statement that rank and

file FBI agents had lost confidence in Comey was a comment she made in the

heat of the moment, it was not founded on anything. 

 

In the heat of the moment.  She also told them that it was quote “a slip of

the tongue.”  A slip of the tongue in the heat of the moment.  OK.  Let`s

see how hot that moment was when her tongue slipped. 

 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

 

SARAH HUCKABEE SANDERS, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY:  And secretary Devos

is in Daytona Beach, Florida, to deliver the commencement address at

Bethune Cookman University. 

 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

 

O`DONNELL:  No, no, no.  That`s not a mistake.  That`s what I meant to show

you because that`s what she was talking about right before she made her

statement about the FBI losing confidence in James Comey.  She was reading

a prepared statement about Trump administration news before she took any

questions from anyone.  There was no heat in the moment.  There was no slip

of the tongue.  She was reading.  She was reading words that she and the

team of liars in the White House press office wrote in the cool comfort of

their offices. 

 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

 

SANDERS:  There`s also another nugget of big news as you guys may have been

paying attention in regard to the termination of the former FBI director

Comey.  The President over the last several months lost confidence in

director Comey.  The DOJ lost confidence in director Comey.  Bipartisan

members of Congress made it clear that they had lost confidence in director

Comey.  And, most importantly, the rank and file of the FBI had lost

confidence in their director. 

 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

 

O`DONNELL:  She was reading.  It wasn`t a slip of the tongue in the heat of

the moment.  That was a lie that she wrote and then very calmly and

deliberately read to the news media and to the country.  The rank and file

of the FBI had lost confidence in their director.  And then when she was

forced under oath to admit that statement wasn`t true, she actually lied

about her lie. To people who knew she was lying about her lie, that, that

is truly pathological lying. 

 

That`s tonight`s LAST WORD. 

 

“THE 11TH HOUR WITH BRIAN WILLIAMS” starts now.

 

 

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY

BE UPDATED.

END

 

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