One on one with Pete Buttigieg. TRANSCRIPT: 4/1/19, The Last Word w/ Lawrence O’Donnell.
LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, MSNBC HOST: Rachel, could you say that one more time
because I`m adjusting the volume in my little listening device here.
RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC HOST: Now it`s time for “THE LAST WORD” with the
great Lawrence O`Donnell.
O`DONNELL: You know what this proves, Rachel. This proves rehearsal
O`DONNELL: Because I actually liked the first read better even though it
was lower volume.
MADDOW: I was trying to – in case you still couldn`t hear me, I was
trying to enunciate clearly so you could read my lips while I said it.
O`DONNELL: It was the way people used to talk on long distance phone calls
O`DONNELL: So, meaning like from Boston to Springfield, Massachusetts.
They would can you hear me? Can you hear me?
MADDOW: Do you still have Pete Buttigieg as your guest this hour?
O`DONNELL: You know, guess who is going to teach me how to pronounce his
O`DONNELL: That`s who`s going to teach me. He`s going to join us in this
I got great questions from Twitter. I solicited questions on Twitter
today. I now have 100 great questions, Rachel. I`m going to get, I don`t
know what, ten maybe, if I`m lucky.
MADDOW: If I get off the air let you do your show, you`ll get in more.
O`DONNELL: OK, I`ll give you one more. Thank you, Rachel.
MADDOW: Yes. Bye, Lawrence.
O`DONNELL: Well, you know, I`ve never seen a more surprising and sudden
rise of a presidential candidate than the candidacy of 37-year-old Pete
Buttigieg who has come from really nowhere to be a – nowhere in politics,
that is, to be a powerful new voice in the Democratic presidential
We`ve seen surprises before. We have seen in 1968, for example, Senator
Eugene McCarthy challenge the sitting Democratic president in primaries but
very slowly build a level of support that became threatening to President
Johnson in New Hampshire.
We saw Senator Bernie Sanders last time start off in single digits in the
polls and climb slowly and steadily and strongly to present a very strong
challenge to Hillary Clinton. But Gene McCarthy was not an unknown when he
started his presidential campaign. He was a very well-known United States
senator who almost got the nomination for vice president four years
Bernie Sanders was a well-known United States senator when he started his
presidential campaign. But most of us didn`t know who Mayor Pete Buttigieg
was just last year. I know I certainly didn`t. I was still practicing how
to say his name a couple of weeks ago when we first mentioned him on the
show within the last couple of weeks. It is the speed, just that stunning
speed with which Pete Buttigieg has risen to national prominence in this
campaign that we have not seen before.
So, tonight, we`re very excited to have Mayor Pete as he likes to call
himself joining us in tonight`s segment of the contenders for his first
interview on THE LAST WORD as a presidential candidate. And we will, of
course, begin by letting the mayor give us his own lesson how to pronounce
his last name because I`m not completely confident on my pronunciation yet.
As I said, I solicited your questions for the mayor today on Twitter. And
you have sent me some really great ones which I will be using including the
very last question that I`m going to ask Pete Buttigieg tonight. It is a
question I keep hearing from Democrats. It`s a question that voters are
It`s a difficult question. It`s not an issues question. But it is a
difficult question for the mayor and for some other candidates to answer.
It`s an important question that could determine the voting decision of most
Democrats. And I will read you that question exactly as I found it on
Twitter and the voter who sent me that question will get tonight`s LAST
WORD with Pete Buttigieg.
That voter will get the very last question for Mayor Pete later in the hour
But we begin our coverage tonight with Congress`s attempts to get a look at
the complete Mueller report and our first guest tonight has a history with
Preet Bharara was fired by President Trump from his job as the U.S.
attorney for the Southern District of New York. From that point early in
his administration, President Trump has made it very clear that he wants
federal prosecutors in his Justice Department whom he can control. The
president spent years bitterly complaining about his first attorney
general, Jeff Sessions, because Jeff Sessions did the right thing and
recused himself from supervising special prosecutor Robert Mueller`s
investigation of the president. During that frustrating period for the
president, Donald Trump said he wanted a Roy Cohn as his attorney general.
Roy Cohn was the criminal lawyer by which I mean the lawyer who was himself
a criminal who represented Donald Trump in his private business dealings
for years and no doubt taught Donald Trump his vision of how the law should
be bent and twisted and abused in pursuit of whatever Roy Cohn and Donald
Trump wanted. And so, we`re eager to get Preet Bharara`s view of how
Donald Trump`s new Attorney General William Barr is handling the Mueller
report. We`re on the eve of the deadline set by House Judiciary Committee
Chairman Jerry Nadler for the attorney general to turn over the full
Mueller report to the chairman and a letter to Mueller on Friday, the
attorney general ignored the chairman`s deadline and said we will in a
position to release the report by mid-April if not sooner.
Powerful committee chairmen don`t like having their deadlines ignored. And
so, Jerry Nadler has scheduled a vote in the committee the day after his
deadline on Wednesday of this week to, quote, authorize subpoenas for
special counsel Robert Mueller`s full and complete report its underlying
evidence and related matters. If the committee votes to authorize those
subpoenas, it will be left to Chairman Nadler to decide when to issue those
In an op-ed from “The New York Times” which will appear in print tomorrow,
Chairman Nadler writes: We require the report because Congress, not the
attorney general has a duty under the Constitution to determine whether
wrong doing has occurred. Special counsel declined to make a traditional
prosecutorial judgment on the question of obstruction.
But it is not the attorney general`s job to step in and substitute his
judgment for the special counsel`s. The Judiciary Committee will also vote
on Wednesday to authorize several other subpoenas for documents from five
key witnesses in the committee`s investigation of alleged obstruction of
justice, public corruption and other abuses of power by President Trump,
his associates and members of his administration.
Those witnesses are former White House counsel Don McGahn, former White
House chief strategist Steve Bannon, former White House communications
director Hope Hicks, former chief of staff Reince Priebus and Ann
Donaldson, who is the former chief of staff to former White House counsel
The latest NBC/”Wall Street Journal” poll shows that President Trump`s
attempts to claim he has been completely exonerated by the Mueller report
which no one has actually read that those efforts are actually failing, 29
percent say that they believe Trump has been cleared of wrongdoing. That
means not even every Trump supporter believes that Donald Trump has been
cleared of wrongdoing. Forty percent say they don`t believe Trump has been
cleared and 31 percent say they`re not sure.
Eric Columbus, a Justice Department official in the Obama administration,
says that the biggest question about the Mueller report is what new facts
are in it. In an op-ed piece for the “Washington Post,” Eric Columbus
wrote: Whether there is sufficient evidence to meet all the elements of a
criminal offense is beside the point. The key question is whether there is
evidence of wrongdoing that would make Americans either at the ballot box
or via the impeachment process more inclined to remove the president from
The ultimate jurors are the American people and their elected
representatives who for good reason are not limited to the criminal law in
deciding whether to remove a president from office.
Leading off our discussion now is Eric Columbus, former senior counsel to
the deputy attorney general under President Obama. Eric Columbus was also
the general counsel in the Department of Homeland Security in the Obama
administration, has experience dealing with the kind of classified material
that Attorney General Barr says he`s redacted from the Mueller report. So,
we`re eager to get Eric Columbus` view of what should and should not be
redacted from the Mueller report.
And we`re especially pleased to have Preet Bharara with us tonight. He was
the U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York from 2009 to 2018,
for the eight years of the Obama administration. That position is
considered the most important U.S. attorney`s office in the United States
and is of particular interest to President Trump since it has geographic
jurisdiction over the Trump businesses, the Trump Company located in
President Trump decided he did not want his New York City businesses
subject to any possible investigations supervised by Preet Bharara. And
so, the president fired him, which means Preet Bharara is free to join us
tonight and his new book is entitled “Doing Justice: A Prosecutor`s
Thoughts on Crime, Punishment and the Rule of Law.”
Preet Bharara, what would doing justice mean for the attorney general who
now has the Mueller report in hand?
PREET BHARARA, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY, SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK: Well,
the first thing, the most important thing and the thing everyone is waiting
for and all your viewers care about is to get access to the actual Mueller
report. A four-page summary written in 46 or 47 hours after a voluminous
report whose length we didn`t understand until the last day or two of
almost 400 pages, not including appendices and other attachments. You
can`t do justice to it.
I have no suggested that Bill Barr has somehow distorted or misled. He has
a couple of sentences or portions of sentences from the Mueller report that
are not great for the president including that Mueller didn`t think he was
exonerated on the issue of obstruction. There`s no way you can do justice
to a 400-page report that probably will have as Eric Columbus points out in
his piece, new information especially about obstruction.
And so, the most important thing for justice is not only that it be done
but seen to be done. One of the ways it can be seen to be done is
providing the information to the public consistent with other obligations
possibly but doing that really, really fast.
O`DONNELL: What would have done if you were in that position and Robert
Mueller handed you that report? Would you have attempted to write some
kind of letter to Congress or would you have found the task of the letter
ultimately not worth it because it would inevitably lead to tortured
interpretations of it, possible misunderstanding?
BHARARA: So, in fairness to Bill Barr, I think he was in a tough spot.
The report gets delivered to the attorney general reportedly at around 5:00
p.m. on a Friday. The whole world wants to know what`s in it.
BHARARA: Presumably, the amount of time it would take to do a redacted
report let`s say it would take a week. I don`t think it should take much
more, although now it`s taking many weeks. I don`t think people would sit
comfortably waiting for a week. Conspiracy theorists would come out of the
So, I think you would have to put something out. I don`t know that the
thing he put is what I wouldn`t put. I haven`t seen the report so it`s
hard to judge. But I think he had to say something about the principal
But he did it in a way that`s, you know, fairly favorable to the president.
He jumped in and grabbed the punt, even though I don`t know if it`s
intended for him. It seems to have been intended for Congress. And, you
know, by virtue of his power as the recipient of the report which is
required set forth in the guideline, and the requirement of confidentiality
of the report, he was kind of in a good position, had a lot of leverage in
how he was going to play it to the public.
Again, I don`t necessarily criticize him for putting out a letter. I`m not
sure it`s the right letter and I`m not sure there should be a delay between
his summary letter and the time when at least Congress if not the rest of
us see the whole thing.
O`DONNELL: And, Eric Columbus, Preet Bharara just said that the attorney
general grabbed the punt, meaning that he took what he describes in his
letter to be the special prosecutor`s inability to reach a final
conclusion, legal conclusion of some sort on obstruction of justice and
just then declared that there was no obstruction of justice committed or
certainly not one that could be proved beyond a reasonable doubt.
Was that the right role for the attorney general at that point?
ERIC COLUMBUS, FORMER SENIOR COUNSEL, DOJ: Well, I thought that was
somewhat of an odd thing to do in large part because as Bill Barr noted in
his letter, the Department of Justice policy is that it would not be
comport with the Constitution to indict a sitting president. Therefore,
when we were asking whether President Trump obstructed justice, we are not
asking whether he could be convicted, or whether a jury would find he had
done so beyond a reasonable doubt or ask him whether he engaged in behavior
that is inappropriate for a sitting president and that be worthy of his
removal either via the impeachment process or at the ballot box next year.
O`DONNELL: Preet, do you believe that what Jerry Nadler is asking for is
reasonable, what they`re going to vote for to subpoena which is to say the
full report plus underlying investigative documents?
BHARARA: Yes, I think – I mean, I have worked in the Congress like you
did and oversaw some investigations myself. I think it`s reasonable for
Oversight Committee chairmen to ask for what they think need.
As you and I also know, these things end up being accommodated somehow in
the future. The idea that this will be resolved by a court in short order
is not likely to happen. So I think you ask for everything. And then
maybe there`s a negotiated way at the end of the day to get more than what
you ask for. It`s important to lay the groundwork.
It may be we get a report in mid-April as promised by the attorney general
that gives us virtually everything with minor redactions that reasonable
people believe have to be made because of classified investigations,
ongoing investigations. We don`t know if that`s going to happen. I don`t
think it makes sense for a committee chairman. You and I would not advise
a committee chairman to wait idly by knowing what the track record is, and
see what you get in the mid of April, if it even comes in the middle of
April. I think you`ve got to lay the groundwork now and that`s what he`s
doing and I think that`s appropriate.
O`DONNELL: I assume what you`re saying, it`s one thing to decide what you
show Chairman Nadler and possibly the committee. There`s a different
decision to be made about what would be public.
BHARARA: I think so. You know, bear in mind these issues of
classification don`t apply necessarily to certain chairmen and ranking
members in the House and Senate.
O`DONNELL: Especially not the Intelligence Committee.
BHARARA: Certainly. And I think part of what`s going on here is not just
I hope to stick it to the president on the obstruction point which I think
is already really significant, but also for members of Congress in their
oversight role and also in their legislative capacity to understand what
actually happened to the country in connection with the interference in the
My presumption is there`s going to be new information in there that don`t
necessarily mean that folks on the American side committed a crime but
would help Congress I think properly and appropriately figure out how to
prevent against this in the next election and maybe hold other people
accountable not necessarily criminally but in the other ways Congress can
O`DONNELL: Eric Columbus, with your experience in dealing with classified
material and investigations, what do you think should reasonably be
redacted in this report, what kind of things should be redacted? Either in
delivery to Congress or in delivery to the public which are two different
COLUMBUS: Well, certainly. Congress has the right as you know to seek
classified information. A trickier issue may be grand jury materials, most
notably testimony of witnesses before the grand jury which the attorney
general cannot unilaterally disclose to the public. The grand jury secrecy
rules are kind of tricky. They`re maybe somewhat uncharted territory.
There are good arguments he can disclose things to Congress which Congress
may not be able to disclose directly to the American public.
There are also other routes which may involve going to the judge who
oversaw the Mueller grand jury and asking her to use her authority to
release some of the grand jury materials that are quoted in the report.
And now again, we don`t know how much of the report contains grand jury
materials because Mueller may have written it in a way to minimize the use
of that if he was hoping for wider dissemination.
O`DONNELL: And it`s fascinating see Preet Bharara, the other subpoenas
that Jerry Nadler wants to issue because presumably, he`s trying to find
out elements of the obstruction case. Of that could have involved the
White House counsel and others, White House chief of staff and so forth.
Presumably, Robert Mueller has covered all of that and presumably seen all
of those documents and they are presumably all referred to within the
And so, those subpoenas separately targeted to individuals seem to be
either something that wouldn`t be necessary if they had the full Mueller
report or is a replacement route to not having the full Mueller report.
BHARARA: Yes, I mean, that could be. I mean, I think what the chairman is
doing which I think is appropriate is in advance of knowing what is going
to be given and making clear that they`re not going to stand for something
minimal, they want something maximal, is they`re laying down the gauntlet
and saying in one interview, these people prepared to compel them to come
testify if necessary. And this happens all the time when subpoenas are
issued not just in Congress but also in regular litigation as well, you let
people know you mean business.
And Jerry Nadler clearly means business. He issued 81 document requests
some weeks ago, you know, at the beginning. And then if it`s OK and you
have satisfaction that you`re getting the information from other sources or
it`s coming voluntarily or laid out in the Mueller report and not redacted,
then you can say we`ll withdraw the subpoena.
But until you know that, it`s important to have all guns firing.
O`DONNELL: Eric Columbus, do you expect a big court battle over those
subpoenas to those veterans of the Trump administration?
COLUMBUS: I think it`s likelier than not that they will comply in the end.
O`DONNELL: Eric Columbus, we`ll have to leave it right there.
Eric Columbus and Preet Bharara, thank you both very much for joining us.
Preet Bharara`s book is “Doing Justice: A Prosecutor`s Thoughts on Crime,
Punishment and the Rule of Law.”
And when we come back, Mayor Pete Buttigieg will join us. He`ll be
answering your questions and mine. You sent me great questions from on
Twitter today and the very last question he gets tonight toward the end of
the hour in the in interview will be one of the questions that you sent on
Twitter, one of the important questions.
Also tonight, before we get to the presidential campaign, President Trump
is trying to destroy the Affordable Care Act in court. And that has
Republicans in Congress, especially in the Senate, very worried and hoping
that President Trump will lose in court.
We`ll be right back with that.
O`DONNELL: Republicans in the House and Senate have proved many times that
they are incapable of passing a health care bill to replace the Affordable
Care Act. And so, it should come as no surprise tonight that “The Hill” is
reporting that Senate Republicans are disappointed that President Trump is
trying to kill the Affordable Care Act in court because they know they are
incapable of legislating any replacement of any kind of the Affordable Care
Act and those Republicans do not want to pay the political price for taking
health care away from over 20 million people.
“The Washington Post” reports that according to numerous lawmakers staffers
and aides, quote: Republicans have no intention of heeding President
Trump`s urgent demands for a new health care plan to replace Affordable
Care Act, fearing the potential political damage such a proposal could
cause in 2020 and hoping he will soon drop the idea.
Last week, President Trump said Republican Senators Rick Scott, Bill
Cassidy and John Barrasso would, quote, come up with something that`s
really spectacular. Those were Donald Trump`s words.
But, yesterday, Rick Scott said he has nothing spectacular and is waiting
for something spectacular from Donald Trump.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. RICK SCOTT (D), FLORIDA: I look forward to you know, to seeing what
the president is going to put out being with Nancy Pelosi in the House,
it`s going to be tough to get something done.
INTERVIEWER: Did you just say that you expect the White House to come
forward with a proposal first?
SCOTT: Well, I know in the end, the White House is going to have to have
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: Both of our guests know the policy and politics of the
Affordable Care Act and how the act affects the lives of real people.
Joining us Neera Tanden, veteran of the Obama administration who worked on
the Affordable Care Act. She`s currently the president of the Center for
And Maria Teresa Kumar is the president and CEO of Voto Latino, an
organization that has worked on outreach to the Latino communities for the
Affordable Care Act. She`s also an MSNBC contributor.
And, Neera, it comes as no surprise to me that “The Hill” is reporting
tonight that Republican senators are hoping, hoping that President Trump
loses in court in his attempt to destroy the Affordable Care Act because
they have no idea what to do if they have to replace it.
NEERA TANDEN, PRESIDENT, CENTER FOR AMERICAN PROGRESS: Yes, I think it is
a case where fool me once, shame on me, fool me twice, three times, four
times, five times, shame on you.
I think the reality here is that the president of the United States has
never had a plan on health care. He campaigned on having something better
than the Affordable Care Act. That never materialized. He had a plan that
went up in flames in a Republican Senate and now we have a Democratic House
and there is absolutely no plan, no thought of a plan that would pass the
House and the Senate. And the idea that he`s going to risk 20 million
people`s health care on the figment of his imagination is I think what is
going to be a very potent issue for Democrats in 2020, just as it was an
extremely potent issue in 2018.
O`DONNELL: And Chuck Todd had Senator Barrasso on yesterday and asked him
about what the Republican plan would be. Senator Barrasso struggled, said
he had been working on one forever but they don`t have one.
“The Washington Post” reporting a senior White House official directly
involved in the discussion said there was no specific proposal. McConnell
also has no plans to put together a working group of Republican lawmakers
to draft a health care blueprint as he did in 2017, according to one
official familiar with party strategy.
Senator Grassley said no hearings are planned on replacing Obamacare in his
committee. Senator Lamar Alexander who leads the Senate`s major health
panel, said that his focus is working on reducing health care costs and
emphasize bipartisan efforts to do so.
Maria Teresa, if the court strikes down the Affordable Care Act, 20 million
people are absolutely going to lose their health care coverage because
there is no legislative plan to replace it.
MARIA TERESA KUMAR, MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR: There is absolutely no plan B and
the Republicans have had over six years to come up with a plan B.
Let`s be clear. The fact right now there are briefs coming out in support
of the Affordable Care Act, yes from the traditional progressive routes,
but there are right now two Republican governors asking the judge not to
strike it down, making it not unconstitutional, and for the American
people, most understand without health care coverage, they and their loved
ones may not only lose the ability to be healthy but also the shirts on
Lawrence, prior to the Affordable Health Care Act, the number one reason
Americans were filing for bankruptcy was because they couldn`t pay their
medical bills. This is completely a non sequitur. This is cruel and it
has – nothing to do but playing politics solely for Trump because the
Republicans know it`s a losing issue.
It`s the reason why they lost the midterm election because they recognized
that pulling the literally the rug from under the constituency means not
only will people with pre-existing conditions not get coverage but even
individuals that are basically on the middle of the road of whether or not
they`re going to be able to pay for their pills or not are also going to be
There`s, for the very first time in American history, we have the majority
of Americans who feel that not certain people should have health care
coverage but that the majority of everyone should have universal health
O`DONNELL: And we have a Fox News poll showing just how unpopular the
president`s position is. A Fox News poll showing only 37 percent of a
prove of President Trump`s handling of health care, 52 percent disapprove
of the president`s handling of health care.
And, Neera, Republicans in Congress, especially Republican senators, know
how to read those polls.
TANDEN: Yes, I think this is a real chasm between Republicans who are
going to face elections in 2020 and Donald Trump. You know, the last
couple weeks, he started out with an attack on John McCain because of his
health care vote. Then we find out that the White House overruled the view
of the attorney general and the HHS secretary in saying that they should
overturn basically it`s the Trump administration position that the courts
should overturn the ACA.
And I think what you see is there are Republicans who recognize that Trump
has a deep disadvantage on health care and they remember that senators like
Josh Holly, right before the election said he was for pre-existing
conditions though his record was totally opposed to that. And then a few
months later, they turn around and try and get rid of pre-existing
conditions for over a hundred million people. Because let`s remember, pre-
existing condition protections are at the heart of the Affordable Care Act.
And if you have a pre-existing condition, then when this – when the ACA
goes out or if the ACA is ruled unconstitutional as the Trump
administration would like it to be, you lose your pre-existing conditions
protections from your insurer, private or in the exchanges.
So I think everyone recognizes, so many Republicans recognize this is a
lethal issue for Democrats. And why they hope that Trump will change his
O`DONNELL: And Maria Theresa, the – go ahead.
KUMAR: And I think – oh, I`m sorry. Go ahead. No, go ahead.
O`DONNELL: Go ahead, Maria Theresa.
KUMAR: And something for the most of Americans to realize that under this
idea of what is encompassing pre-existing conditions, pregnancy is
considered a pre-existing condition.
So you`re talking about 35 percent of women who have had children. All of
a sudden, they`re not being able to apply to health care at a very simple
level. I mean this is how in the weeds we have to get for folks to really
understand what is at risk.
O`DONNELL: And Neera, the reason this is such a potent political issue and
such a hot political issue and the reason we`re talking about the polling
on it is that it affects real people`s lives. That`s the kind of thing
that polls strongly in politics, real issues that really change the quality
of people`s lives.
And we`re talking about over 21 million people whose lives would be
shockingly changed by a court one day saying the Affordable Care Act is no
longer law, including all sorts of provisions that a lot of people forget
about like that 22-year-old who can remain on the parents` health insurance
policy only, only because of the Affordable Care Act.
KUMAR: That`s right.
TANDEN: I mean what`s incredibly ironic about the situation we`re in is
that the Conservatives have attacked you know, run away judiciary for
overturning the will of the people. And here we have a situation where the
Conservatives tried and failed to overturn the ACA and the Congress and
couldn`t get that done and now we`re using the courts.
Now, I think the courts will be a little concerned because they will be
responsible for 20 million people losing their health care or a hundred
million people losing pre-existing conditions protections or millions of
people, 18 to 26 who are on their parents` plan. Remember, the Affordable
Care Act touches so many aspects of the health care system.
And you`re absolutely right, Lawrence. Health care is different from so
many other policies, policies affecting taxes or Wall Street because it
relates to the most important decisions we make as really human beings,
taking care of our children, et cetera.
So that`s why I think Trump is either giving a great benefit to Democrats
or will have to reverse himself.
O`DONNELL: Neera Tanden and Maria Theresa Kumar, thank you both for
joining us tonight. Really appreciate it.
And when we come back, it is presidential campaign time. And we have Mayor
Pete Buttigieg joining us tonight. This will be my very first conversation
with the mayor and he will be joining us as a presidential candidate.
He is a fascinating person, and he was before he became a politician. And
he is an intriguing politician. So he is worth an extended interview even
if he wasn`t a presidential candidate but is he now the fastest rising
presidential candidate we have seen. He is in the thick of it now and he
will join us next.
O`DONNELL: In 2004, Bernie Sanders was a member of the United States House
of Representatives. Kamala Harris was beginning her first term as district
attorney of San Francisco. Elizabeth Warren was a Harvard Law School
And Pete Buttigieg was on that same campus as Elizabeth Warren as a senior
at Harvard College writing a thesis about U.S. foreign policy and on his
way to graduating magna cum laude in History and Literature.
And now, they are all top tier contenders for the Democratic presidential
nomination. Anyone could have easily predicted that Senators Warren,
Harris, and Sanders would be presidential contenders this year.
But Pete Buttigieg has come from out of nowhere politically to surge in the
early and highly unreliable polls and to surge in fundraising. So quickly
that he is the biggest surprise in the campaign so far.
You can actually watch the rise of Pete Buttigieg in this graph that Google
released today showing Google searches of presidential candidates this
year. Pete Buttigieg starts at the bottom in January and he ends up in
what is essentially a tie up there at the top as of today.
Watch that again. Watch him just fly up there in Google searches over
time, at a speed we haven`t seen before.
And joining us now in his first interview as a contender here at THE LAST
WORD is the mayor of South Bend, Indiana, Democratic presidential candidate
Mayor, thank you very much for joining us tonight. We really appreciate
PETE BUTTIGIEG, MAYOR, SOUTH BEND, INDIANA: Good evening. Glad to be with
O`DONNELL: And how am I doing so far on the pronunciation of your last
name? I`m from Boston so the entire English language is a challenge for
me, but how am I doing?
BUTTIGIEG: You`ve got it. Buttigieg. I think it just rolls off the
tongue. It`s a very common name in the country of Malta where my father
immigrated from, not so much anywhere else but you got it.
O`DONNELL: OK. Roll it off your tongue one more time because I know that
T.V. news people around the country are going to rewind this tape a couple
of times so they can practice the pronunciation.
BUTTIGIEG: Yes, it`s Buttigieg. Some people say you just say boot edge
edge. Other people say, say the word Buddha and then the word “judge” and
that will get you there. But either way, three times fast gets you to
O`DONNELL: All right, either way. Thank you very much. All right.
So I want to get to a bunch of questions that were sent in on Twitter
today. Some of them were really great and some of our own here.
And I want to consider things you would do as president. So one of them
might involve the Mueller report, for example. So it is possible that
Attorney General Barr and the Mueller – and the Trump administration will
in effect hide the full Mueller report for the rest of Donald Trump`s term.
If you become president and the Mueller report has not been released in
full, would you order the full release of the Mueller report?
BUTTIGIEG: Yes, I believe the public has a right to know what`s in that
report. I hope that it will be made available long before the new
president takes office but certainly, it would be something I would believe
in if it hasn`t happened by the time I get there.
O`DONNELL: The HR-1, the very first bill that the Democrats and the House
of Representatives are trying – first major bill they`re trying to put
through contains a provision that requires all presidential candidates to
release 10 years of tax returns. Do you support that? Would you sign that
into law as president?
BUTTIGIEG: I do. You know, this kind of transparency I think should be
table stakes especially when we want to know the financial interests of the
person we`re putting into the highest office.
The sad thing is it used to be you didn`t need to enforce this by law. It
was just customary and it was understood that if you expected the American
people to trust you with that kind of power, you were going to release your
tax returns, at least over a reasonable period of time.
Unfortunately, we can no longer take that for granted so it`s going to have
become a matter of law.
O`DONNELL: So will you be releasing 10 years of tax returns?
BUTTIGIEG: Yes. It might take a while for me to dig up the last 10 years
but it`s not very complicated. They`re all pretty thin filed. So I`ll be
prepared to do that for sure.
O`DONNELL: How about is your 2018 tax return? Will you be ready to file
that by April 15 this year?
BUTTIGIEG: I will be. I`ve got to admit I haven`t gotten around to
putting it in just yet. But again, I believe in this kind of transparency
and obviously, I want to practice what I preach.
O`DONNELL: OK. Senator Gillibrand, as you might know, released hers for
her 2018 return that she`s filing before April 15. And so that`s – she`s
the first one in the group to release this year`s return.
As president, on tax policy, would you repeal the Trump tax cuts?
BUTTIGIEG: Yes, we – at least the tax cuts on the wealthiest because that
has blown a huge hole in the Treasury that my generation is going to be
forced to pay. And we`re going to have to pay for it probably in the form
of reduced services if we don`t come up with revenue.
There`s no need for some of these giveaways to the wealthiest people in the
country. But we also need to rethink the way that our revenue is
structured right now.
That`s why I think at least three ideas that have been floating out there
among many people in the 2020 conversation deserve to be part of a
portfolio of revenue for the future. That would include a wealth tax, some
reasonable percentage on those who are sitting on the largest amounts of
wealth in this country.
It would mean a financial transactions tax to deal with the fact that
people are in some cases making preposterous sums of money off of
millisecond transactions that don`t seem to actually contribute very much
to the real economy.
If they do fine, but that needs to be shared with the country so that we
can have a more robust infrastructure and education and national security
and all of the things that make the accumulation of that kind of wealth
possible. And we also need to reconsider the taxes for the income brackets
that are making the most.
You know, over the last probably 40 years, Democratic and Republican
politicians have accepted what you might call the Reagan consensus. This
idea that the only thing you would ever consider doing to taxes is to cut
them and the only arguments over whose taxes to cut.
Obviously, we want to keep taxes low and reasonable especially for working
people struggling to get by and members of the middle-class but we also
know that some people in this country are not paying their fair share.
And whether it`s individual taxes like some of what I`ve been talking about
or making sure we use some kind of instrument like perhaps sales
apportionment to get a better share of U.S. corporate taxes that are now
being hidden offshore or not appropriately taxed when it comes to global
business. We could be doing a lot better to fill the Treasury before it
has to hit the working and middle class.
O`DONNELL: We have a lot more questions for you. And so after this break,
when we come back, you just mentioned the wealth tax which is Elizabeth
Warren`s idea. When we come back after the break, I`d like to ask you what
is the best idea you have heard from one of the other Democratic candidates
We`re going to squeeze in a break here and we`ll come back with that with
Mayor Pete Buttigieg.
O`DONNELL: And we`re back with presidential candidate Pete Buttigieg. And
so we gave you the commercial break to think about it. What is the best
idea you`ve heard from one of the other Democratic candidates for
BUTTIGIEG: Well, I think each of the candidates is offering something
really helpful. We talked about the wealth tax. I think that`s a good
I think the baby bonds concept or some way to make sure that we are
starting early on addressing some of the gaps not just in income but in the
accumulation of wealth especially for our most disadvantaged, also a really
good idea that`s already been contributed in this debate.
And you know, even some of the ideas that I`m not on board with, I`m glad
that we have a bit more range coming from left through the center to kind
of stake out where our party ought to be. And so I don`t think it`s a bad
thing for us to have perspectives in this party from ones that are more
centrist than I am to folks who are calling themselves Democratic
socialists if only to make sure that we remind ourselves that we ought to
have as much of a range as the right has.
O`DONNELL: I want to get to some of the questions we got on Twitter from
some of our viewers. Gina Ingle tweeted what does he intend fend to do
about our troops in Afghanistan?
BUTTIGIEG: We`re leaving Afghanistan. The only question is whether we do
it well or whether we do it poorly.
Doing it well means we do it in a context where we know that the U.S.
homeland won`t be attacked because of something that`s happening there. I
think it`s a good sign that there are peace talks going on but I`m a little
bit concerned with the progress of those talks and that they seem to
involve the Taliban and the U.S. but the democratically elected Afghan
government is being left off to the side almost as an afterthought.
I think they`re going to have to be party to any kind of lasting peace.
But the bottom line is we can`t be the guarantors of prosperity and an
ideal situation in Afghanistan.
And so we`re going – look, when I was there five years ago in 2014 as a
lieutenant, I thought I was among the last U.S. troops to be there. And
now, we`re in 2019, you can be old enough to enlist and not have been alive
when 9/11 happened.
The departure has to be accelerated and we have to do it in a context to
make sure that we`re going to be protecting the homeland so that people
don`t get sent over there again in the future.
O`DONNELL: Twitter is allowing us to turn this into a mini town hall of
questions from our viewers on Twitter. And so Christina Myers asked, what
is the biggest regret in your professional life, something you wish you
could go back and change, your “if I knew then what I know now moment”?
BUTTIGIEG: Well, early in my professional life I turned down a job offer
from the Obama for Senate campaign in 2004 because I had a chance to work
for John Kerry and it just didn`t seem like I could pass that up.
Although I can`t say that`s maybe necessarily a regret because if I`ve done
that, and of course, I`m a great admirer of President Obama, but I`m not
sure I`d be doing what I am today.
You know, at every turn, you go back, you think about things you could have
done better. Certainly, things on each of my campaigns that I would have
it done differently and moments in my time as mayor that I would have
adjusted course as well.
But I think the most important thing – and you`re going to make mistakes
as you go. As a friend said to mine, it`s simply more to your credit if
you make a different mistake each time.
O`DONNELL: You worked for the Kerry presidential campaign instead of the
Obama Senate campaign. Let`s squeeze in one more before the commercial
break. This is from a former Republican who tweets as Atticus Finch, which
I don`t think is his real name, Atticus Finch.
He says, “I`m a 45-year-old white male southerner. Until 2016, I always
voted GOP. I`m Conservative but reject the politics of Donald Trump. I
believe in compromise and moderation. I`d like to vote for a Democrat and
will not vote for Trump. What can Mayor Pete offer a voter like me?”
BUTTIGIEG: Well, the good news is most Americans agree on a lot of issues
that are being presented as divisive. For example, statistically, the
question is probably one of the 80 percent or so of Republicans who believe
in universal background checks.
Maybe part of the majority of Americans who believe we ought to raise wages
for everybody through an increase in the minimum wage and probably part of
the bipartisan majority that believes that comprehensive immigration reform
is going to have to include a compromise that creates a pathway to
citizenship, something to appropriately take care of dreamers who know this
country is their only home, as well as whatever measures are appropriate on
These are all things that – by that way that was the terms of a bipartisan
compromise that made it in the Senate but died in the House. The
astonishing thing to me is that these are subjects of compromise among the
American people but can`t be delivered by the American Congress right now
because the center of gravity in Washington is so out of whack with the
center of gravity of the American people.
We`re even a reasonable idea that among the American people commands some
level of support and respect from both sides of the aisle is treated as too
far out for Washington to deliver.
O`DONNELL: We`re going to have to squeeze in one more commercial break.
And when we come back, Mr. Mayor, the final question of the night will be
asked by one of our viewers via Twitter.
It`s a difficult question. It`s not a policy question. It`s a question
about the Democratic field.
We`re going to get to that when we come back from this break. We`ll be
right back with Mayor Pete Buttigieg.
O`DONNELL: And we`re back with the final question for presidential
candidate Pete Buttigieg. And Mayor Pete, I just want you to know that my
questions are almost always about policy and future-oriented questions
about what you will do if you are in the oval office making presidential
But voters, as you know, have a wider view of what controls their decision
and so I`m going to ask you this question that was given to us from Laura
Gately on Twitter who tweets as Laura Smately. And she said, “Why should I
vote for him over the well qualified female candidates I`m inclined to
support as a woman choosing a president to make a difference for women and
BUTTIGIEG: Well, I think you should choose the person you think is going
to make the best president. I am who I am as everybody coming into this
And I`m certainly passionately committed to making sure that the top
leadership in this country and in our party just as I`ve worked hard to
make sure it is in my administration reflects the full diversity of the
people that we serve, including making sure that there are women in the
most senior positions, and people of color and everyone else has been
I would also argue that diversity takes many shapes. And if a millennial
son of an immigrant who`s a gay veteran isn`t part of the diversity of our
party, then I don`t know what else I can say.
All of us brings the unique experience that we have and I think that
informs who we are. And also hopefully motivates us to stand up for other
people who for whatever reasons of their own have been othered or have been
disadvantaged so that we`re all helping each other get ahead.
O`DONNELL: Pete Buttigieg, thank you very much for joining us tonight. I
really appreciate it. You have a standing invitation, open invitation to
join us on this program to continue to discuss the issues in the campaign
as does every presidential candidate. We really appreciate you accepting
that invitation and joining us tonight.
BUTTIGIEG: Sounds good. Look forward to it.
Thank you, Mr. Mayor. Pete Buttigieg gets tonight`s LAST WORD. “THE 11TH
HOUR” with Brian Williams starts now.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY
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Copyright 2019 ASC Services II Media, LLC. All materials herein are
protected by United States copyright law and may not be reproduced,
distributed, transmitted, displayed, published or broadcast without the
prior written permission of ASC Services II Media, LLC. You may not alter
or remove any trademark, copyright or other notice from copies of the