Cohen testifies he met with Trump at WH. TRANSCRIPT: 2/27/19, The Last Word w/ Lawrence O’Donnell.

Gerry Connolly; Eric Swalwell; Jed Shugerman; Mimi Rocah

LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, MSNBC HOST:  Good evening, Rachel. 


I`m so glad you played that final word from Michael Cohen today because

there is so much video in this hearing –




O`DONNELL:  – that I`m not going to be able to include in the next hour. 

That`s one of the things.  When I saw it, I thought, oh, we have to use

that.  By the time we get this all done, there is no room. 




O`DONNELL:  It`s one of those days. 


MADDOW:  What we did for my show today, first of all, there were so many

amazing dramatic, personal and even kinetic funny moments.  We`re not doing

any of that.  We`re going to create a giant list of concrete, discreet

revelations about stuff that we didn`t know before.  There`s about 30 of

those.  We`re not going to do any of that. 


Now, we need to focus on the serious, you know, multi-variant criminal

allegations this guy is making about this president since he`s been in

office because you have to prioritize that because of its importance.  But

this is – this is 30 days worth of material today. 


O`DONNELL:  Yes, and none of it, not a single thing that we saw today, none

of it would have happened, the hearing would not have occurred if the

Democrats did not win the House of Representatives –


MADDOW:  Yes. 


O`DONNELL:  – on election night.  Tonight`s lesson in your vote really,

really matters. 


MADDOW:  Yes.  And to hear Elijah Cummings in his emotional roundup at the

end when he talked about – he gave his own closing statement and even when

he spoke to reporters thereafter, talking about what he hopes for this

committee and what he wants in terms of decency and civility on this

committee and what he wants to be able to do with members reaching across

the aisle and pulling in the same patriotic direction on these things was I

think heartfelt in part because of his frustration that none of this stuff

could be pursued at all, at all, at all, at all until the Democrats took



O`DONNELL:  And he –


MADDOW:  Shouldn`t be that way. 


O`DONNELL:  He remembers a world in which things actually did run smoothly

in the House of Representatives, and you could have hearings that were

conducted on a bipartisan basis. 


MADDOW:  Yes. 


O`DONNELL:  That`s the dream he has of trying to get back to that. 


MADDOW:  Yes, exactly.  It`s so much to get through.  I`m going to sit down

and watch you do it. 


O`DONNELL:  OK.  Thank you, Rachel. 


MADDOW:  Thanks, Lawrence. 


O`DONNELL:  Well, we have everyone we need tonight to cover this historic

day.  We have one of the members of the committee who questioned Michael

Cohen today, who revealed information we would not have known without his

particular line of questioning. 


We have a member of the House Intelligence Committee, Eric Swalwell, who

will be questioning Michael Cohen tomorrow in a closed-door session. 


We have former federal prosecutor Mimi Rocah, formerly of the U.S.

attorneys` office in the Southern District of New York.  You heard a lot

about the southern district of New York today.  The legal filings on

Michael Cohen by the prosecutors of the Southern District of New York

became a major component in all of the Republicans` questioning in that

hearing today. 


We have Tim O`Brien who wrote a book about Donald Trump and his businesses. 

A book that got Tim O`Brien sued by Donald Trump, a lawsuit that Tim

O`Brien won.  Tim O`Brien was the first person who said the words “Allen

Weisselberg” to me when he identified Allen Weisselberg, the chief

financial officer of the Trump Organization as a key player in the

investigation of the Trump business.  And we heard Michael Cohen making

repeated references today to Allen Weisselberg, who may now be called

before that committee. 


And no one can take up inside the Trump business – no one can talk about

the inside of the Trump businesses better than Tim O`Brien.  So we`re very

lucky to have him here tonight. 


And we have a first guest tonight who has played a very special role in the

Michael Cohen story for me personally.  You know, whenever I meet members

of our audience out there in the world walking down the street or in the

airport, you always ask me what`s going to happen, what`s going to happen

next, and I always tell you that I don`t know because I don`t know anything

that I`m not telling you right here, and that has always been true

throughout the Trump presidency, except for one very important

conversations that I had with a friend of Michael Cohen`s last summer when

I was told that the information Michael Cohen would eventually reveal about

Donald Trump would be devastating and that that information could

definitely be developed into articles of impeachment. 


That friend of Michael Cohen is also a friend of mine, and he didn`t tell

me any more detail than that at the time.  He just gave me that guidance

that somewhere down the road, it would come to this.  It would come to what

the Democrats are now calling the smoking gun. 


My leadoff guest tonight knew it was going to come.  He knew it long before

the rest of us did.  He knew that Michael Cohen was going to make the

history that Michael Cohen made today. 


We have all the experts assembled who we need for this momentous night, but

for me, I wouldn`t want to do this show tonight without that one mutual

friend who Michael Cohen and I have, and he will join us in a moment. 


The Democrats now have the smoking gun.  Today, Michael Cohen wrote the

first article of impeachment against President Trump in his testimony in

the House of Representatives, the place where impeachment of a president

begins.  Democrats believe Michael Cohen gave them the smoking gun today. 

That`s what Democratic Congressman Ro Khanna called this contribute that

Michael Cohen introduced in the all-day hearing in the House Committee on



This check made to Michael Cohen carries the now recognizable signature of

Donald Trump and was signed by the president six months into his

presidency.  It marks the first time in American history that we have seen

a check signed by a president for an illegal purpose. 




MICHAEL COHEN, FORMER TRUMP ATTORNEY:  As exhibit 5A to my testimony shows,

I am providing a copy of a $35,000 check that President Trump personally

signed from his personal bank account on August 1st of 2017, when he was

president of the United States, pursuant to the cover-up, which was the

basis of my guilty plea, to reimburse me. 




O`DONNELL:  The crime as described by federal prosecutors and in Michael

Cohen`s guilty plea testimony took place weeks before the presidential

election when Michael Cohen used his own funds to arrange a payment of

$130,000 to Stormy Daniels to buy her silence.  What America learned from

Michael Cohen today is that that criminal scheme extended forward in time

into the presidency of Donald Trump.  Because President Trump arranged a

reimbursement schedule for Michael Cohen that included 11 checks delivered

to him during the first year of the Trump presidency.  Some of those checks

were signed by President Trump.  Some of them were signed by Donald Trump

Jr. and by Allen Weisselberg, the chief financial officer of the Trump



The smoking gun check, the one with Donald Trump`s bold signature, will now

take its place in popular culture.  You will be seeing it in tweets

forever.  You will be seeing it on T-shirts.  It will be imprinted on

toilet paper, on coffee mugs and it will take its place in history as the

most important check Donald Trump has ever written because it is the check

that could end his presidency. 


And so, the Trump loyalists in that hearing today had one job to do, and

that was attack that check, attack Michael Cohen`s explanation of the crime

that check is part of and not one Republican member of the committee dared

to do that.  Not one of them went after that check.  Not one Republican

member of the committee tried to defuse that bomb for Donald Trump.  They

left the smoking gun untouched in their cross-examination of Michael Cohen. 

And instead of attacking that evidence, instead of attacking that check,

they attacked Michael Cohen and they used the words of the attorney in the

Southern District of New York against Michael Cohen. 


That is the office of the federal prosecutor who got Michael Cohen`s guilty

plea.  And today, it was if those federal prosecutors in the southern

district of New York were sitting right there in the Republican side of the

hearing room as counsel to the Republican members of the committee who put

full faith and confidence in every word that they quoted from those federal

prosecutors in the Southern District of New York. 




REP. JIM JORDAN (R), OHIO:  Take what the southern district of New York

said, Cohen did crimes that were marked by a pattern of deception and that

permeated his professional life. 


REP. JAMES COMER (R-KY), OVERSIGHT COMMITTEE:  According to the southern

district of New York, you failed to disclose more than $20 million in




York in their statement, their sentencing memo says this.  Cohen`s criminal

violations in the federal election laws were also stirred, like others,

crimes by his own ambition and greed.  I ask unanimous consent to submit

the sentencing moment from the Southern District of New York for the





O`DONNELL:  And I ask your unanimous consent to read you portions of the

sentencing memo that the Republicans did not read today. 


During the campaign, Cohen played a central role in two similar schemes to

purchase the rights to stories, each from women who claimed to have had an

affair with individual one, so as to suppress the stories and thereby

prevent them from influencing the election. 


And who was individual one? 




REP. STEVEN LYNCH (D-MA), OVERSIGHT COMMITTEE:  And who are you referring

to here when we refer to individual one? 


COHEN:  Donald J. Trump. 




O`DONNELL:  That part of the sentencing memo that the Republicans did not

read continues.  With respect to both payments, Cohen acted with the intent

to influence the 2016 presidential election.  Cohen coordinated his actions

with one or more members of the campaign, including through meetings and

phone calls about the fact, nature and timing of the payments, in

particular and as Cohen himself as now admitted with respect to both

payments, he acted in coordination with and at the direction of individual



And so, the federal prosecutors in New York who the Republicans repeatedly

quoted today as if they were quoting the bible are the very same

prosecutors who in the very same memo say that the president of the United

States committed crimes with Michael Cohen and that those crimes were

committed at the direction of Donald Trump.  Donald Trump was the boss of

the criminal enterprise described by the federal prosecutors who the

Republicans quoted today, but were very careful to never quote the part

where those same prosecutors accused the president of the United States of

having committed crimes. 


The Republicans on the committee told America, you cannot believe Michael

Cohen now because he is a convicted criminal and one of his crimes was

lying to Congress. 




JORDAN:  A guy who is going to prison in two months for lying to Congress. 


REP. JODY HICE (R), GEORGIA:  Lying to Congress. 




REP. KELLY ARMSTRONG (R), NORTH DAKOTA:  Intricate, elaborate lies.


REP. PAUL GOSAR (R), ARIZONA:  Liar, liar, pants on fire.




O`DONNELL:  I`ll never forget, the first convicted criminal who I saw

testify to Congress, and he was guilty of crimes much worse than lying.  He

was a murderer.  He was a made man in the mafia. 


I was a little boy in 1963 watching Joe Valachi testify to Congress about

Italian organized crime in America on black and white TV.  And though we

knew Joe Valachi was a criminal and murderer, we also found him very

believable.  I don`t mean just the kids.  The senators thought his

testimony was believable and worth hearing. 


In testimony that I remember to this day, Joe Valachi described to the

Senate and America watching on TV the initiation ritual for the criminal

organization that we learned that day was called the Cosa Nostra by its

members.  The ceremony was in Italian and the new member had to take a

piece of paper and burn it in his hands.  I`ll never forget the way he said

the word “burned”, in his New York accent, it became boyned (ph). 




UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Demonstrate just what you did.  What? 


JOE VALACHI, MOBSTER:  This piece of paper is burned. 




VALACHI:  And then you light it and in your hand you say – then they give

you words in Italian, but I know what it meant. 


UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  In other words, while you were repeating the words, you

were burning the paper. 


VALACHI:  This is the way I burn if I expose this organization.  And then

he pricks your finger. 




VALACHI:  The godfather. 


UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  He pricks your finger? 


VALACHI:  Pricks your finger, with a needle.  In other words, the blood

relation supposed to be like brothers. 




O`DONNELL:  And the Senate and America believed every word.  Six years

later, Mario Apuzzo published his mafia novel “The Godfather” and three

years after that there were long lines in front of movie theaters all over

the country for audiences to see Marlon Brando playing “The Godfather.”


And America has known since then and probably before that the most hardened

criminals in the world lie, cheat, steal and murder, but sometimes,

sometimes some of them tell the truth.  And when criminals like Joe Valachi

tell the truth, their criminal friends turn on them and call them a rat,

which is what Donald Trump now calls his former friend Michael Cohen. 


Leading off our discussion now: Mimi Rocah, former federal prosecutor and

MSNBC legal contributor.  Tim O`Brien, executive editor of Bloomberg

opinion, an MSNBC contributor.  He has reported on Donald Trump for decades

and, of course, was sued by Donald Trump and won. 


And we are joined by MSNBC contributor and friend of Michael Cohen, Donny

Deutsch, the man who told me many, many months ago that this day was



And, Donny, when you told me that in that short but powerful conversation

in that hallway, I thought when the day comes, I need Donny on the show as

the first guest.  Tell us what you saw in that hearing room today with your

friend Michael Cohen. 


DONNY DEUTSCH, FRIEND OF MICHAEL COHEN:  Well, the day hasn`t come yet

because this is a – this is –


O`DONNELL:  There`s more? 


DEUTSCH:  This is an open act.  The day that you`ll have me back on is when

the Southern District RICOs the Trump organization, that`s the Racketeering

Influence Corrupt Organization Act, which is introduced when people sit

atop a criminal organization where basically they will go every everything

this criminal organization has done from the charities to the Trump – to

the money laundering to bank fraud to wire fraud to insurance fraud. 

They`ll take the empire apart.  They`ll take buildings away. 


That`s when I`ll come back on the show because that will be the closing

act.  This and Mueller will be the opening act.  And what you saw today,

and I still think that Russia is going to be a sidebar into this, is a peek

inside this criminal enterprise. 


You saw the little pieces coming into play.  You saw the word insurance

come up for the first time.  You saw him mentioning the children in

different ways.  You saw obviously the campaign violation, but that`s not

where this ends. 


This ends where if you live in New York City, I ran a big advertising

agency for years.  There were bankers and lawyers and real estate

developers.  What everybody knows about Donald Trump and his organization,

it is the slimiest of the slime.  It is just the way they do business. 


It is dishonest.  It is unethical.  It is criminal.  And the Southern

District will take it apart. 


So what Michael Cohen did today that I knew was coming, I knew a lot of the

things that Michael knew but I also know a lot of things about how the

Trumps do business, this is the opening act. 


O`DONNELL:  Mimi Rocah, your old shop, the Southern District of New York,

kept coming up in every Republican question, but they left out the part

where the same prosecutors said Donald Trump directed these crimes. 


ROCAH:  Exactly.  I mean, you hit the nail on the head.  What they wanted

to do was paint Cohen as a liar, which really isn`t surprising since the

first thing Cohen did was admitted he`s a liar.  He`s lied on behalf of

Trump.  And that`s the part that they wanted to just, you know, ignore,

right?  Because if you believe Cohen`s testimony today, it`s very, very

damaging for Trump. 


And so, that`s why instead of, as you said, going after the facts and

trying to counter some of the actual assertions he made about what Trump

did like direct him in essence to lie, although he was careful not to

overstate it, you know, help concoct this scheme of silencing women and

then reimbursing through this essentially a fraud scheme.  If you believe

all of that, that`s very damaging for Trump.  And so, the only thing they

can do is to attack him as opposed to going after the facts because to

leave it under attacked, to leave his credibility in tact is just

devastating for Trump. 


O`DONNELL:  And Tim, Allen Weisselberg came up.  He suddenly started to

become a featured player in the hearing because people kept saying, well,

who else can we go to for more information about whether it would be

insurance fraud possibilities or other issues?  And that name Allen

Weisselberg kept coming up.  And we now are hearing from the committee that

he may be one of the witnesses they call. 


TIM O`BRIEN:  Right, along with Matthew Calamari and Rhona Graff, all these

names that people didn`t know before, but who have been sitting in the

Trump Organization for decades.


You know, Trump chose people pretty quickly, but there is a core group of

people who have been with him for a long time.  They`re not terribly

sophisticated but they buy into the cult of personality around Trump.  They

don`t argue and they do what they`re told. 


Allen Weisselberg specifically joined the Trump Organization at the same

time Donald did in the 1970s.  He was Fred Trump`s accountants.  He`s

handled Donald Trump`s personal tax returns.  He signs off on every major

deal that Trump does. 


Michael Cohen`s only been there since 2006.  He`s got a window on some

things, but Trump used him as the pitfall.  Allen Weisselberg has deep

institutional knowledge.  So, what Donny was saying about, you know, when

the Southern District decides to pounce and start to take apart some of the

pieces of what Trump`s doing, particularly I think around issues like money

laundering –


DEUTSCH:  Correct. 


O`BRIEN:  – Allen Weisselberg is going to be a cog in the middle of that

because he authentically knows where all bodies are buried. 


DEUTSCH:  You`re not going to have to go through Enron.  Tim will know

this.  If you`ve been up to the Trump Organization, it`s a dusty office. 

Here is Donald.  Here are the three kids.  Here is the CFO. 


O`BRIEN:  Stuck in the 1980s. 


DEUTSCH:  You go back to Valachi, if you went to one of those little, you

know, coffee bars. 


O`DONNELL:  Right. 


DEUTSCH:  So you don`t have to pick through a lot of layers.  It is a mom

and pop licensing company.  So, it is – and it was run that way. 


And as you see Donald Trump at – see the way he conducts himself as

president?  Just in front of everybody beyond the law, imagine as a private

citizen when nobody`s watching.  Imagine in the real estate business, which

is a pretty slimy business even if you`re a straight shooter to begin with. 

Imagine the antics that he was up to. 


Well, we`re not going to have to imagine.  So, I thank you for those nice

things that you said, but I want to extend a future invitation to myself

when the –


O`DONNELL:  Permanent invitation. 




O`DONNELL:  So, Mimi, Donny tells us more – certainly to say this is going

to end up in a RICO prosecution.  And my experience with Donny on this

subject is he doesn`t exaggerate anything, anything.  Everything is as

solid as you could ask it to be. 


How would we get from here to a RICO prosecution? 


ROCAH:  Well, it`s not crazy, I will say that, in this sense.  Look, RICO -

- there is very technical requirements, but it is –


O`DONNELL:  And Donny didn`t go to law school, so you can correct him. 


DEUTSCH:  I barely got – I did go to Wharton with Donald Trump, though. 


ROCAH:  Interesting.  But RICO is meant to capture is when you have all

sorts of different kinds of criminal activity being committed on behalf of

one centralized person and organization and, you know, it`s kind of – I

mean, it`s exactly what you think of.  It`s almost like a spider web and

all the different spiders are in it and they`re all doing different kinds

of crimes.  It`s to capture it all together, because to charge any one

single crime alone doesn`t capture the essence of the organization. 


So that`s why I say, as you`re right, the more different kinds of crimes we

hear, insurance fraud, bank fraud, tax fraud, you need crimes that are

considered predicates like specified under the statute, that you can use in

RICO.  But I do see the idea that if the Trump organization is being used

as a vehicle to commit many different crimes of state and federal crimes,

it can capture state crimes and become federal under RICO as well.  Then,

you know, that`s when RICO becomes useful. 


O`DONNELL:  Which brings us to one of the scariest answers and questions

that the Trump organization and President Trump had to experience today. 

That is when Michael Cohen was asked if there are any other illegal acts

that he`s aware of that he hasn`t mentioned today.  Let`s watch this





REP. RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI (D), ILLINOIS:  Is there any other wrongdoing or

illegal act that you are aware of regarding Donald Trump that we haven`t

yet discussed today? 


COHEN:  Yes, and, again, those are part of the investigation that`s

currently being looked at by the Southern District of New York. 




O`DONNELL:  That was one of my jump out of the seat moments, Tim. 


O`BRIEN:  Well, you know, following upon what Mimi said, I think in

addition, one of the atmospheric things about RICO is there is someone at

the head of the web or in the center of the web orchestrating this.  This

has come out.  It came out today. 


At one point, Michael Cohen was asked, so are you saying that Donald Trump

orchestrated a criminal fraud with Donald Trump Jr. and Allen Weisselberg? 

Yes.  At this moment, are there other frauds we don`t know about or other

crimes that were committed?  Yes. 


Of course that`s going to make Donald Trump jump out of his socks.  He`s in

Hanoi.  He just got epically trolled by Michael Cohen thousands of miles

away.  He did to Trump what Trump has done to everyone else.  He has

damning testimony, he`s insulted him personally and Trump`s in a box

halfway around the world and can`t do anything about it. 


The next leg of this, I think, is people inside the Trump Organization are

going to start to have to decide do they take care of themselves, do they

take care of Trump or do they try to find a middle ground?  I don`t think

they`re going to ultimately be able to have a middle ground. 


DEUTSCH:  Mimi, how does that work? 




O`DONNELL:  Well, I mean, it sounds like Allen Weisselberg, for one, has

already made a decision about that.  He reportedly has an immunity

agreement with the southern district. 


ROCAH:  Well, I want to be careful there because I don`t know for sure, but

just based on the reporting that we`re gleaning, maybe you have more

specifics, I think his immunity was pretty limited.  So there is

cooperation agreements and then there is immunity agreements.  Cooperation

agreements are you tell us everything about everything.  Immunity is we`re

going to bring you in on this one day to the grand jury. 


O`BRIEN:  Which was August of last year. 


ROCAH:  And you`re going to answer questions and that`s it.  And so that

can be very limited. 


So I think Allen Weisselberg still has that decision to make that we`re

talking about.  Is the going to get on board and cooperate?  Which it

sounds like he should or he is in some serious legal jeopardy himself. 


O`DONNELL:  Donny, talk about the man we saw today in that committee room. 

I mean, you over the months have tried to tell me that Michael Cohen is

actually a nice guy in certain ways.  I didn`t want to hear it.  I focus on

what he has done and what he`s participated in.


But I saw the man today.  You couldn`t miss him.  We were exposed to him

for hours on end.  We saw him cry.  We saw him talk about the pain this has

caused his family in very convincing ways.  There is no one who can doubt

that part of it. 


We saw him stay composed, never fall for the bait that the Republicans were

trying to get him to fall for, never getting angry, never giving more of an

answer than was necessary, and being, you know, as solid a witness in terms

of performance as you can see in those kinds of hearings.  What did you see

in that range of emotion in the range of what you saw him go through?  I`m

particularly interested in what you felt, what you thought when you saw him

address Donald Trump directly into that camera. 


DEUTSCH:  I saw what I`ve, seeing over the last couple of years.  What the

public has seen is basically the old clips. 


O`DONNELL:  That`s all I know. 


DEUTSCH:  Look, Michael Cohen was Trump`s kind of thuggy lawyer and did

dishonest things, and his explanation, which is the real explanation if you

know Michael personal, if you know Donald personally, he was in the glow. 

He went from being a taxicab attorney to Trump`s attorney on his lapel pin. 

That`s intoxicating.  He`s described it as a cult.  That doesn`t excuse,

but it explains a lot of his behavior. 


What I saw over the last couple of years is a guy who knows he did wrong

things and says, wait a second, I`m the guy taking the fall?  Look what`s

happening in the world here.  The very thing that we are – our heads

almost explode about every night. 


Imagine if you are becoming aware of that, you realized you were a part of

it, a piece of it, you`re paying the consequences while the other guy is

circling in Air Force One.  And I saw I guy who would break down every time

we`d talk about his family.  I saw a guy, look, if this hadn`t happened,

would he have gotten to this place?  Probably not.  But it did happen. 


And he is in this place and it`s genuine and it`s real and the camera does

not lie.  His life is destroyed.  He is a family – you know, Congressman,

I can`t remember his name, put out that thing the other day about his wife

potentially, that is the – we`re not even going to dignify it.  I`ve

already gone through that, but to see the effect on this man. 


I was on the phone the night that Trump went after his father-in-law.  He

said, I`m not doing this.  I`m not doing this.  He`s a family guy.  He is a

good man that did some stupid, bad things. 


And I would not talk the way I talk about him.  I`m a pretty cynical guy

and I`m a street guy, I know people.  I`ve known guys like this my entire

life, as I said. 


Is he a choir boy?  No.  Does he deserve to go to jail for what he did? 

Yes.  But he`s a good guy. 


O`DONNELL:  Donny Deutsch is not someone who`s going to be fooled by

people.  He understands the complexity of people and that they come with

many shades.


Donny, are you doing “MORNING JOE” tomorrow? 


DEUTSCH:  I am. 


O`DONNELL:  Thank you very much for staying up late. 


DEUTSCH:  Thank you, my friend. 


O`DONNELL:  Couldn`t get through this hour without you. 


Mimi Rocah, thank you for joining us. 


Tim O`Brien, I really appreciate it.  We needed you here tonight more than



And when we come back, one of the senior Democrats on the committee today,

Gerry Connolly, stunned the room when he got Michael Cohen to reveal he had

a meeting with Donald Trump in 2017 before Michael Cohen falsely testified

to the House Intelligence Committee.  Congressman Connolly will join us



And Michael Cohen will testify tomorrow to the House Intelligence Committee

in a closed session.  Congressman Eric Swalwell will be in that closed

committee meeting and he will join us later in this hour.




O`DONNELL:  In today`s hearing, Virginia Congressman Gerry Connolly led

Michael Cohen through questioning that revealed that Michael Cohen had a

meeting in the White House with President Trump and the president`s private

lawyer Jay Sekulow before Michael Cohen provided a false statement to the

House Intelligence Committee in 2017.





with the president of the United States about your impending testimony

before the House Intelligence Committee, is that correct?


COHEN:  That`s correct.


CONNOLLY:  What was the nature of that conversation?


COHEN:  He wanted me to cooperate.  He also wanted just to ensure by making

the statement, and I said it in my testimony, there is no Russia, there is

no collusion, there is no deal.  He goes, it`s all a witch hunt.  And this

– he goes, this stuff has to end.


CONNOLLY:  Did you take those comments to be suggestive of what might

flavor your testimony?


COHEN:  Sir, he`s been saying that to me for many, many months.  And at the

end of the day, I knew

exactly what he wanted me to say.




O`DONNELL:  Joining us now after a long day in that hearing room,

Congressman Gerry Connolly.  Congressman Connolly, really appreciate you

staying with us tonight after that long day of work in that hearing room.


CONNOLLY:  Thank you, Lawrence.


O`DONNELL:  I know what those hearing rooms are like.  Really appreciate

it.  What do you think is the most important thing that we learned in that

hearing room today?


CONNOLLY:  Well, I think we certainly had confirmation that the Trump

Organization headed by Mr. Trump is by any other name a criminal

enterprise.  And very much like, you know, the organizations described by

Joe Valachi.  You mentioned it earlier in the report.  I brought it up this

morning in the hearing reminding my Republican colleagues that Joe Valachi

revolutionized how Congress dealt with organized crime and made a huge

difference in law enforcement`s dealing with organized crime.


And as you pointed out, he was a lot more than a convicted liar, he was a

murderer.  But his testimony nonetheless was pivotal to unlocking the keys

to how the Mafia was organized.  Mr. Cohen is going to be, I believe, one

of the pivotal figures in unlocking the key – the keyhole to how the Trump

Organization, in fact, operates.  And in many ways, it does resemble a

criminal enterprise.


O`DONNELL:  You kept making the point to your Republican colleagues that it

is possible to take testimony from convicted criminals and invest belief in

that testimony.  This happens in courtrooms around the country every day. 

Criminals turn on each other, testify against each other.


But one of the most important things that is an element of those kinds of

cases is something – is any evidence that exists beyond the word of the

criminal.  And there was Michael Cohen showing you, submitting to you that

check with the president`s signature on it six months into the Trump

presidency, presumably signed somewhere in the White House, possibly the

oval office.  You don`t have to take Michael Cohen`s word for that check. 

That check is real.


CONNELLY:  That`s right, Lawrence.  And if we really just go back a little

bit in time, let`s remember how this began.  The president denies any

knowledge whatsoever of an affair with the two women described, let alone

hush money payments to them to keep silent.


And then we evolve to Giuliani, his media attorney, saying, “Well, so what

if he, in fact, paid them?  That`s a private matter and so what if he

reimbursed his personal attorney?”  Having denied everything up to that



And now we know shades of Spiro Agnew, that in the oval office itself he is

actually signing one of these reimbursement checks to his personal attorney

for hush payments made to these two women with whom he had an affair in

order to circumvent the federal election law so it wouldn`t interfere with

the election results in 2016.  That`s against the law.


O`DONNELL:  Let`s listen to what Chairman Cummings said today when he was

asked after the hearing if he thought that he heard evidence that President

Trump committed a crime.




REPORTER:  Based on what you heard, do you believe that the president

committed a crime while in office?



– looking at the text and listening to Mr. Cohen, it appears that he did.




O`DONNELL:  Do you agree with the chairman, that it appears that the

president committed a crime?


CONNOLLY:  I do.  And I believe that what Cohen did today wasn`t to give us

new evidence to that effect but to confirm what we already knew in one

case.  Remember that when the filing documents were unsealed from the

Southern District of New York with respect to Mr. Cohen, he was convicted

of a crime that the Southern District U.S. attorney said was coordinated

and directed by individual number one.  Individual number one we know is

Donald J. Trump.


So it`s not news that Mr. Trump, in fact, has exposed himself to criminal

activity by coordinating and directing a criminal act that he helped his

personal attorney commit.  And for which that personal attorney is going to

go to jail.


O`DONNELL:  Congressman Gerry Connolly, we really appreciate you extending

your workday to include us and –


CONNOLLY:  Any time.


O`DONNELL:  – please come back.  You`re welcome any time you can join us

at this hour.  Really appreciate it.


CONNOLLY:  I`d love to do it, Lawrence.  Big fan.


O`DONNELL:  Thank you, Congressman.


CONNOLLY:  Thank you.


O`DONNELL:  Thank you.  And when we come back, Michael Cohen will testify

to another congressional committee tomorrow in a closed-door session with

the House Intelligence Committee.  The chairman of that committee Adam

Schiff has already said that he wants to follow up on Trump Tower Moscow

and Roger Stone`s conversations with WikiLeaks and other things that he

heard in that hearing today.


Congressman Eric Swalwell is a member of the Intelligence Committee who

will be in that meeting tomorrow.  Congressman Swalwell will join us next.




O`DONNELL:  Today, Michael Cohen connected Julian Assange, Roger Stone, and

Donald Trump.




COHEN:  A lot of people have asked me about whether Mr. Trump knew about

the release of the hacked documents of the Democratic National Committee e-

mails ahead of time, and the answer is yes.  As I earlier stated, Mr. Trump

knew from Roger Stone in advance about the WikiLeaks drop of e-mails.


In July of 2016, days before the Democratic Convention, I was in Mr.

Trump`s office when his secretary announced that Roger Stone was on the

phone.  Mr. Trump put Mr. Stone on the speakerphone.  Mr. Stone told Mr.

Trump that he had just gotten off the phone with Julian Assange and that

Mr. Assange told Mr. Stone that within a couple of days there would be a

massive dump of e-mails that would damage Hillary Clinton`s campaign.  Mr.

Trump responded by stating to the effect, “Wouldn`t that be great.”




O`DONNELL:  That will be a point of extreme interest in the House

Intelligence Committee tomorrow when they interview Michael Cohen in a

closed session.


And joining us now, one of the members of that committee, Congressman Eric

Swalwell, Democrat from California.  Congressman Swalwell, I know that in

your hearing tomorrow, some of what gets said in that closed session could

be public.  It`s just that there`s enough that will be said that is – that

couldn`t be public that it needs to be closed.


Of the – of what you can share with us, did you hear things in today`s

hearing, in today`s public hearing that you expect to be expanded on in

tomorrow`s closed hearing?



Lawrence.  Yes, we did.  Particularly around three areas.  One, that Donald

Trump had knowledge of WikiLeaks.  He was previewed what they were later

released.  Two, that he did talk to his son in what appears to be the Trump

Tower meeting that his son had with the Russians as they were about to dump

information about Hillary Clinton.  And third, that he would routinely ask

what`s going on with Russia as it related to the Trump Tower project.


But it`s just so disturbing to imagine a candidate for president of the

United States of America from any party, to imagine that that individual

would be told that a U.S. adversary who is working against our interests

every day is helping his campaign or that any adversary would be helping

his campaign and that he doesn`t say, “Stop it.”  He doesn`t say, “Don`t do

it.”  He doesn`t say, `That`s not what we do.  Go to the police.”  Instead,

he says, “Wouldn`t that be great.”


And so that`s what we`ll probe further, but, of course, we`ll get into the

Mueller investigation as well.


O`DONNELL:  I want to listen to two things that were said today about the -

- related to the Trump Tower meeting.  One is a question by Congresswoman

Wasserman Schultz about the way the Trump family shares information.  Let`s

listen to that.




REP. WASSERMAN SCHULTZ:  If Mr. Trump and his daughter Ivanka and son

Donald Jr. are involved in the Russian Trump ower deal, is it possible the

whole family is conflicted or compromised with a foreign adversary in the

months before the election?


COHEN:  Yes.




O`DONNELL:  And with that possibility, let`s now also listen to what was

Michael Cohen`s description of Donald Trump Jr. Discussing that Trump Tower

meeting before it happened with his father.  Let`s listen to this.




COHEN:  I recalled Don Jr. leaning over to his father and speaking in a low

voice, which I could clearly hear, and saying, “The Meeting is all set.” 

And I remember Mr. Trump saying, “OK, good.  Let me know.”


So I concluded that Don Jr. was referring to that June 2016 Trump Tower

meeting about dirt on Hillary with the Russian representatives when he

walked behind his dad`s desk that day.




O`DONNELL:  That`s the point you`re going to be looking for more detail on,

I assume.


SWALWELL:  Yes.  We believe there are more witnesses to what the

candidate`s interest was and what the candidate`s family was doing or not

doing as this information was offered to them.  And, Lawrence, also when

you put into perspective what we heard today from Michael Cohen, this is

not Michael Cohen`s word versus Donald Trump`s word.


This is Michael Cohen`s word without Donald Trump ever going under oath,

not going under oath with Mueller, not going under oath after Comey

testified.  You now have more and more witnesses raising their right hand,

willing to go under oath, and Donald Trump says nothing under oath.


So the evidence – the state of the evidence is uncontroverted that these

facts exist and that`s why I think the American people should be very

concerned that we have a corrupted president who presided over a corrupted

business and ran a corrupted campaign.


O`DONNELL:  Congressman Swalwell, what`s the most important piece of

evidence you would point to for your constituents today to focus them on

what happened in that hearing?


SWALWELL:  Lawrence, to me the most important piece of evidence was the

president`s knowledge of the Trump Tower in Moscow, the Trump Tower in New

York meeting with the Russians and the WikiLeaks work on his behalf.  He,

throughout the campaign, invited the Russians to keep hacking, previewed

future dirt coming out on Hillary Clinton.


We always believed in our House Intelligence Committee investigation that

he knew this was going on, but he denied it all the way up to right now as

we sit here today.  And so the president has lied to us.  And now it`s time

for those chickens to come home to roost and for he and anyone on his

campaign who worked with the Russians or knew what the Russians did to

finally be held accountable.


O`DONNELL:  Congressman Eric Swalwell, we really appreciate your

availability to us tonight, and generally on this program, and please come

back.  We really appreciate having you.


SWALWELL:  Thank you, Lawrence.


O`DONNELL:  Thank you.


And when we come back, Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez steered

Michael Cohen into territory where no one else went today in a line of

questioning that could lead to many more problems for Donald Trump and the

Trump family business.




O`DONNELL:  In a meticulous series of questions, Congresswoman Alexandria

Ocasio-Cortez opened up another Trump can of worms.




REP. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ (D), CALIFORNIA:  I want to ask a little bit

about your conversation with my colleague from Missouri about acid

inflation.  To your knowledge, did the president ever provide inflated

assets to an insurance company?


COHEN:  Yes.


OCASIO-CORTEZ:  Who else knows that the president did this?


COHEN:  Alan Weisselberg, Ron Leibman, and Matthew Calamari.


OCASIO-CORTEZ:  And where would the committee find more information on

this?  Do you think we need to review his financial statements and his tax

returns in order to compare them?


COHEN:  Yes.  And you`d find it at the Trump Org.




O`DONNELL:  After a break, our legal team of Rocah and Shugerman will get

the last word on the legal risks to the president and his family that were

exposed in today`s hearing.






COHEN:  Mr. Trump would often say this campaign was going to be the

greatest infomercial in political history.  He never expected to win the

primary.  He never expected to win the general election.  The campaign for

him was always a marketing opportunity.




O`DONNELL:  The infomercial has morphed into an investigation, an

investigation of the president, his family, and his businesses.


Joining us now is Jed Shugerman, a professor of law at Fordham University

who`s closely followed these investigations of Donald Trump.  Mimi Rocah is

back with us.


And Jed, I want to go to the point raised by Congresswoman Alexandria

Ocasio-Cortez.  She`s talking about asset inflation.  Has Donald Trump ever

engaged in asset inflation to which she got a very quick yes from Michael

Cohen?  It seems to be a matter of asset inflation for insurance purposes

which then could lead to insurance fraud and are there other worms in that




couple of things.  First, the insurance fraud is implicated here directly. 

But that`s both federal and state insurance fraud.  The key thing is always

looking whether it`s a state criminal liability because that deals with

which other prosecutors might get involved, New York State prosecutors, and

that prevents the pardon problem.


But that also implicates state tax fraud.  And so all of these actors could

be implicated.  And the bigger picture, there could be indictments of Trump

Organization, additional indictments of Trump Foundation because it`s

implicated and potentially the dissolution under a New York State law.  The

New York State attorney general could bring about an action under Quo

Warranto to dissolve the Trump Organization in New York State.


O`DONNELL:  And Mimi, Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez was the third

last member to speak.  She`s one of the three junior members who were at

the very end of the panel.  And in my experience in congressional hearings,

you don`t learn anything at that point in the hearing.  And they don`t

leave anything good for the junior members.  It`s all been eaten up and

used by the time you get down there.


And yet there it was, there was all this new territory for Ocasio-Cortez to

cover.  Were you as a former prosecutor just sitting there throughout the

hearing taking notes on, oh, there`s a new possibility, there`s a new



ROCAH:  I was.  I have my list of leads.  And I mean it`s interesting

because she approached her questioning like a real investigator.  Let me

ask questions where I can find out who should I talk to next, what

documents should I get.  I think probably the Southern District and the New

York State Law Enforcement are already down those paths.  They`re going to

have to make Sure they de-conflict.  But that was smart.


And that is where they should go next.  And look, we talked about this

earlier in the show.  But Allan Weisselberg is obviously someone who needs

to be questioned in some form.  It`s going to be tricky because he`s going

to need some kind of immunity or he`s going to get charged by someone.


I mean there`s sort of two paths here for him.  But he is the next central

figure here I think to talk.  And, of course, the documents at the end of

the day are really what`s going to tell the case, right.  Because whether

you have a Cohen or Weisselberg, they`re going to walk through the

documents.  They`re going to be the narrators.


O`DONNELL:  To go back to the big picture of this, Jed, you haven`t had a

shot at this.  What do you think was the most important evidence in the

hearing today?


SHUGERMAN:  Well, first of all, I think that there was more evidence about

suborning perjury or false statements, right.  I think there was a big

question out of last night about the allegations that what was Trump doing

and it was I think a shortcoming of the prepared statement.  It was really



I was concerned coming in what evidence did Cohen have that Trump was

directly involved, not during the election.  That wasn`t significant.  That

wasn`t sufficient enough.


I think he laid out more clearly how Trump was directly involved with not

explicitly – suborning perjury or false statement doesn`t require flash

cards saying go perjure.  But the signals were clear enough and I think he

laid that out.  I thought that was significant.


And I also think the campaign finance felonies.  It is beyond a doubt now

that there`s probable cause that Trump engaged in an intentional campaign-

finance felony and now that raises some questions about Southern District

of New York.  It`s time to start talking about indicting a sitting



O`DONNELL:  And Mimi, the development that – the felony that we thought

occurred three weeks, a couple of weeks before the election, extended into

the first presidential year.


ROCAH:  Yes.  And look, that`s huge.  We`re talking about a scheme here

that helped get Trump into office and continued once he was in office.  And

that raises the seriousness of the crime.


O`DONNELL:  We need more time tonight that we do not have.  Jed Shugerman

and Mimi Rocah, thank you both for joining us tonight.  Really appreciate



That is tonight`s last word.









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