Trump to make announcement on shutdown. TRANSCRIPT: 1/18/19, The Last Word w/ Lawrence O’Donnell.

Mimi Rocah, David Corn; Elizabeth Holtzman

RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC HOST: That does it for us tonight. We`ll see you again

tomorrow. Now it is time for “The Last Word” with Lawrence O`Donnell. Good

evening, Lawrence.


LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, MSNBC HOST:  Good evening, Rachel, and thanks for

returning that blue blazer to my closet –


MADDOW:  Yeah.


O`DONNELL:  – from last night. So –


MADDOW:  Sorry about the makeup on the collar.


O`DONNELL:  So, if we ever –




O`DONNELL:  – if we ever get to infrastructure week –


MADDOW:  Uh-huh.


O`DONNELL:  It`s going to be really interesting because it isn`t about

infrastructure. It`s all about the Trump version of this, of course. It is

all about really big tax breaks to pavement companies, to companies that

are in the road-building business, and it`s not really about any government

spending or anything that would actually produce any infrastructure at all.


And so I`m kind of eager to get to infrastructure week. I have a funny

feeling we never will. I have a funny feeling the rhythm of this isn`t

going to allow us to get there.


MADDOW:  It stands in for this idea that the Trump administration is eager

to work on policy issues, particularly those on which there might be areas

of agreement with Democrats. Like, it`s a – it`s a little avatar that

means that. And they don`t mean any of that.


And so they just pop the avatar up there whenever they want you to stop

talking about whatever else is actually going on in the administration. But

it`s like this little kind of puppet that they take out whenever they want

to seem like there is somebody who they`re not.


O`DONNELL:  Yeah. As far as I can tell so far, there`s not one sentence of

agreement on what infrastructure legislation would be between Democrats and

Donald Trump.


MADDOW:  Absolutely.


O`DONNELL:  Yeah. Thank you very much, Rachel.


MADDOW:  Thanks. Have a good weekend.


O`DONNELL:  Thank you. If true, those are the important words of the night.

If true, that`s the phrase that we always use when discussing stories that

aren`t yet proven to be true. And that`s the language that I used here

repeatedly last night at this hour when BuzzFeed reported that Michael

Cohen has told special prosecutor Robert Mueller that President Trump

ordered him to lie under oath to Congress.




O`DONNELL (on camera):  Is Michael Cohen – if this is proven true –

guilty of lying to Congress as a crime? Is he guilty of perjury as a crime?

Is the president of the United States guilty of suborning perjury if this

report is true?


JILL WINE-BANKS, LAWYER:  Yes, yes and yes.




O`DONNELL:  And now 24 hours later, the breaking news of the night is that

the special prosecutor`s office is disputing BuzzFeed`s reporting, but we

don`t know exactly what the special prosecutor`s office is disputing within

that reporting. Robert Mueller`s spokesperson issued a written statement

saying, “BuzzFeed`s description of specific statements to the special

counsel`s office and characterization of documents and testimony obtained

by this office, regarding Michael Cohen`s congressional testimony are not



BuzzFeed issued a statement standing by its reporting, and then issued a

second statement, asking the special prosecutor to specify what is not

accurate in their reporting. BuzzFeed`s report last night was attributed to

two unnamed “federal law enforcement officials involved in an investigation

of this matter.”


Now, that certainly sounds like a description of two people working on

Robert Mueller`s team. That would be one way to describe people working on

Robert Mueller`s team. Two federal law enforcement officials involved in an

investigation of this matter. Identifying the sources that way might have

been part of why the special counsel`s office took the rare step of

commenting on reporting like this.


Normally, the special counsel`s office doesn`t say a word about

investigative reporting like this. Tonight`s statement by the special

counsel`s office might be Robert Mueller`s way of saying those two federal

law enforcement officials don`t work for me. They`re not on my Mueller

team. The special counsel`s statement disputes the “characterization of

documents and testimony obtained by this office regarding Michael Cohen`s

congressional testimony.”


Now, that seems to take direct issue with this paragraph of last night`s

BuzzFeed report. “The special counsel`s office learned about Trump`s

directive for Cohen to lie to Congress through interviews with multiple

witnesses from the Trump Organization and internal company e-mails, text

messages, and a cache of other documents. Cohen then acknowledged those

instructions during his interviews with that office.”


The timing and content of the BuzzFeed story last night put more pressure

on the special counsel`s office than possibly any other news report that

has come before it. Senator Chris Murphy said, “listen, if Mueller does

have multiple sources confirming Trump directed Cohen to lie to Congress,

then we need to know this ASAP. Mueller shouldn`t end his inquiry, but it`s

about time for him to show Congress his cards before it`s too late for us

to act.”


Now, Senator Chris Murphy is a patient person. But even his patience with

Robert Mueller`s investigation was tested by last night`s BuzzFeed report

that if true, would have meant the president of the United States was

clearly guilty of impeachable offenses. And it could be that one of the

reasons Robert Mueller decided to respond to this story is because

impeachment is now a real possibility for the president.


And it wasn`t last year, because last year, the evidence like this could

come forward, and because Paul Ryan and the Republicans controlled the

House of Representatives. Impeachment wasn`t possible. And Robert Mueller

could be certain last year that House Republicans were not going to get out

ahead of his investigation and start impeachment proceedings.


Now, Speaker Nancy Pelosi and the Democrats control the House of

Representatives and now impeachment in the House is a real possibility. And

that might be why Robert Mueller decided to pump the brakes on this story,

after watching 24 full hours of momentum for impeachment building,

specifically because of this story.


Leading off our discussion now on this Friday night: Joy Reid, MSNBC

national correspondent and the host of “AM Joy,” weekends on MSNBC; Ken

Dilanian, intelligence and national security reporter for NBC News; and

Mimi Rocah, former federal prosecutor and an MSNBC legal contributor.


Ken Dilanian, I know you`ve been doing some of your own original reporting

on this story on what might or might not be being disputed by Robert

Mueller`s office. What can we make of that at this stage?



Lawrence, it`s more of an analysis. My take on the statement, which is very

specific, is that they are disputing the part of the story that asserts

that the special counsel gathered texts, e-mails, and interviews with

members of the Trump Organization that corroborated Michael Cohen`s

statement that Trump told him to lie.


In fact, the sequence was, Mueller got that first and then went to Cohen

and Cohen acknowledged that, yes, Trump told him to lie. That appears to be

what Mueller is specifically disputing. He is not commenting and certainly

not disputing the notion that Michael Cohen`s story is that Trump told him

to lie.


And, in fact, there`s a paragraph buried in a sentencing memorandum that

was filed by Cohen`s lawyers in November that specifically says he lied to

Congress at the direction of client one, which is Donald Trump. Now, there

are other parts of what Michael Cohen said in court that day where he

discussed why he lied to Congress, where he doesn`t say it was at the

direction of Donald Trump.


But it`s possible that, you know, he was under instruction not to say that

at that time. We just don`t know. But what we do know is that Robert

Mueller is not disputing the entirety of the BuzzFeed story. He is,

however, disputing this notion that his office has reams of corroborating



And in fairness, that is one of the things that got everybody`s attention

about this story because, you know, the House of Representatives is not

going to impeach Donald Trump on the word of Michael Cohen admitted liar.

But if there is other corroboration for members of the Trump Organization,

that`s a different matter, and it appears that there isn`t, at least the

way BuzzFeed described it.


O`DONNELL:  I want to read a tweet tonight from investigative reporter,

Ronan Farrow, who has been apparently working in this same territory.


He said, “I can`t speak to BuzzFeed`s sourcing, but, for what it`s worth, I

declined to run with parts of the narrative they conveyed based on a source

central to the story repeatedly disputing the idea that Trump directly

issued orders of that kind. Note that the general thrust of Cohen lying to

Congress in accordance with or to support and advance Trump`s agenda, per

Cohen`s legal memo, is not in dispute. The source disputed the further,

more specific idea that Trump issued and memorialized repeated direct



And Joy Reid, that part about memorialized would be, I think, a reference

in the BuzzFeed article to there is supporting documentation –




O`DONNELL:  – either from texts or e-mails to what BuzzFeed was reporting

that the president basically ordered Michael Cohen to commit perjury.


REID:  Right. As well as one line in the BuzzFeed story where they

characterized something that Cohen allegedly said to the Mueller team. The

Mueller team is very tight-lipped. They do not leak. And, you know, one

could assume that maybe what they`re also trying to project and telegraph

is, do not write a story in which you`re projecting that we have now –

that members of the Mueller team have leaked information to BuzzFeed,



I mean, when Michael Cohen pleaded guilty in the southern district of New

York, he said, you know, himself, as he stood up and spoke to the judge,

that he lied specifically about this Moscow Trump Tower Project. This is

something that is already on the record. It`s something he`s already

admitted to in the southern district of New York.


So I think I agree with Ken that, you know, I think everyone is now kind of

hair on fire about the denial by the special counsel`s office, but I kind

of try – I`m reading it narrowly until we know more.


O`DONNELL:  So, Mimi Rocah, we know that there are a bunch of federal

officials in Michael Cohen`s life. There is the special counsel`s office,

Robert Mueller, and then there is separately your old office, the U.S.

attorney`s office in the southern district of New York, where he has

already pleaded guilty. He has already been sentenced there. Donald Trump

has been identified there in effect as an unindicted co-conspirator,

referred to in the documents as individual one.


One of the blooming theories of the hour this evening is that these federal

officials – federal officials quoted in this are from the southern

district of New York as opposed to Mueller`s team. Does that – when you

read the BuzzFeed article, does that read as possible to you?


MIMI ROCAH, FORMER ASSISTANT U.S. ATTORNEY:  No. I mean, first of all, let

me be clear about something. People are using this term, the southern

district of New York. That to me and to almost any prosecutor, defense

lawyer, anyone working in the system, means the U.S. attorney`s office, OK?

I can sit here right now and tell you that there is a less than zero chance

that someone in the U.S. attorney`s office –


O`DONNELL:  OK, but could also refer to FBI officials in the same building?


ROCAH:  Whether or not in the same building. The FBI is in a separate

building. Look, I`m not as integrated in that culture. I can`t give that

same statement as I would about the southern district of New York. There

have been leaks from the FBI in the past. But this did not read to me like

statements coming from someone who has been sitting in the room with Cohen.


In other words, it sounds to me, and I think what we`re all saying, is

there is truth in this story, right? It`s not as clear-cut as it was a few

hours ago. A few hours ago, we had a clear-cut crime of Trump directing him

to lie, and supposed mountains of evidence external to Cohen.


Now, we have something more vague. We`re back to the gray area, which is

criminal law, frankly, which is Cohen lied. He – he has made statements,

Mueller has made statements in his sentencing memorandum that in support of

Cohen, that there were discussions between Cohen and the White House, that

he circulated his testimony. It`s not as clear what those discussions were,

who they were with. But it doesn`t exonerate Trump. It doesn`t mean

something didn`t happen.


O`DONNELL:  Right.


ROCAH:  It`s just not as clear what it was. And I think what Mueller is

saying is, whoa. You know, let`s not rush to impeachment. He`s putting the

brakes on, as you say. And let`s see – let the facts come out the way I,

Mueller, am going to describe them.


And so back to your original question. It seems to me that something got

lost in translation here. I don`t necessarily think this is someone who

made up facts, meaning whoever the sources are, or that BuzzFeed got it



But things are very nuanced when you`re describing things in proffer

sessions and sessions with cooperators when you`re looking at 302s. I mean,

there are terms of art and it seems to me that somebody who has some

familiarity got something lost in translation. I don`t think that would be

the New York FBI.


O`DONNELL:  Yeah. Ken Dilanian, BuzzFeed is asking for a clarification on

the special prosecutor`s statement tonight. Any chance of that happening?


DILANIAN:  No, I don`t think so. And look, I feel for BuzzFeed. I think –

I think Robert Mueller`s strategy of saying nothing about anything ever,

even off the record, is very frustrating. I mean, even the Central

Intelligence Agency will give reporters a steer at times if they think

they`re about to get something horribly wrong.


And if Mueller had done that in this case, perhaps BuzzFeed would have been

more cautious and could have avoided this whole matter, which is not good

for journalism. It`s really frustrating. It feels like Robert Mueller at

this point in the investigation owes the public a little bit more

information than we`re getting about something so important. Lawrence,

that`s my feeling about it.


O`DONNELL:  So, a Democratic House member, Ted Lieu, last night tweeting

when this story broke. This is how hot it felt at this hour last night.

“Based on the BuzzFeed report and numerous other articles showing Donald

Trump committed obstruction of justice and other possible felonies, it is

time for the House Judiciary Committee to start holding hearings to

establish a record of whether POTUS committed high crimes.”


And Joy Reid, that`s a reality now.


REID:  Yeah.


O`DONNELL:  And that tweet would have gone to nowhere a year ago or any

time last year because Republican control of the House Judiciary Committee

would have meant that tweet wasn`t worth wallpaper. But now, that kind of

momentum is what Robert Mueller was watching today.


REID:  Yeah.


O`DONNELL:  And eventually deciding he had to say something.


REID:  Well, I think in a sense, rarely saying anything, and then coming

out and disputing part of the story, but not definitively knocking the

story down. I think the most difficult line to maintain in Washington right

now is the line, “we need to wait and see what Robert Mueller does before

we exercise our own independent oversight authority.”


The House of Representatives has every right, and in a sense a duty, to

allow the public to understand what`s happening here. They have to respect

what`s going on in Robert Mueller`s investigation. Of course, they don`t

want to ruin or, you know, harm the investigation. But there is no –

there`s no logical reason why hearings couldn`t be held.


And under the constitution, that is what impeachment is. It isn`t throwing

Donald Trump out of office. It`s allowing hearings where the public can

start to understand the narrative of what was done, potentially to our

election, to elect Donald Trump and what he did while in office.


O`DONNELL:  Yeah, and as we`re going to discuss later in the show, that`s

the way it worked in the Nixon situation. Congress was moving at the same

speed, basically, as the special prosecutor. Mimi, some fascinating elapsed

times here in this case. Yesterday, BuzzFeed reports that five hours went

by – five hours of silence from the White House after they disclosed their

reporting to the White House, and they`re asking for comment from the White

House. The White House does not say a word.


Donald Trump had – knew what BuzzFeed was going to write for five hours.

He didn`t issue or offer one word of denial. And then we have the 24 hours

– the 24 hours that Robert Mueller watched this story. Now, given the size

of his team, does that elapsed time make sense to you? Because one of the

first things he`s going to want to do is make sure this leak did not come

from my shop. That presumably would take some portion of the day to be sure

of that.


ROCAH:  Absolutely. I mean, look, I think you hit the nail on the head. He

could have been doing sort of their own check to make sure before they said

things. And, you know, I think the fact – it is frustrating. I understand

what Ken is saying, and to Joy`s point of this selective putting out of a

statement. It`s frustrating, right?


And – but on the other hand, I think the fact that he put this out tonight

should reaffirm to the American public that Robert Mueller is trying to

find the truth, right? And I think what caused him to do something

different this time after hopefully checking and doing their own internal

investigation, is the political, you know, impetus, as you were saying. And

he wants what he is doing to be about fact-finding in a certain setting,

not in the political setting.


That, I think, actually may weigh in favor of parallel impeachment hearings

beginning. Because Mueller`s job is not to inform us. He does, and he does

it really well. And when you look at his documents, you know those are

things he can prove. And I think what made him nervous was exactly what,

you know, was in that tweet you read from Senator Murphy, which is, you

know, that Mueller is sitting on this mountain of evidence that he`s not

giving us.


And i think what Mueller is saying is, no, if I had a mountain of evidence,

I would be doing something about it, I might have charged someone. But he`s

also not saying that the allegations aren`t true. And so if what we – if

what the people need now and we`ve gotten to that point is we need more

information than just what Mueller`s job is to give us. Then that`s a

different body.


O`DONNELL:  And that is what we`re going to turn to as this program goes on

later tonight. Mimi Rocah, Ken Dilanian, Joy Reid, thank you for starting

us off tonight. Really appreciate it.


And when we come back, the lessons of Woodward and Bernstein Pulitzer

Prize-winning reporting on the Watergate scandal and how their biggest

mistake only made them work harder on the pursuit of the truth about

President Richard Nixon, the truth that eventually forced Richard Nixon to

resign the presidency.


And the president announced this evening that he is going to make an

announcement tomorrow afternoon at 3:00 p.m. about the shutdown. It will be

televised at 3:00 p.m. Joy Reid will be covering it live here at MSNBC. I

just discovered it. I have a theory about what the president is up to and

supporters of the wall are not going to like my theory, anyway. That`s

coming up.




O`DONNELL:  Tonight is the right time to look back at a key piece of

reporting by The Washington Post during their investigation of the

Watergate scandal that brought down President Nixon. And this piece of

reporting was disputed by the Nixon White House and used by the Nixon White

House to try to discredit all reporting on the Nixon scandals, because this

reporting was proved to be wrong. At least in part.


Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein became two of the most respected

journalists in history because of their reporting on Watergate, but they

once got a key fact wrong in one story, and it led to an attack from the

Nixon White House.


In October 1972, they published a piece reporting that Richard Nixon`s

White House chief of staff, H.R. Haldeman “was one of five high-ranking

presidential associates authorized to approve payments from a secret Nixon

campaign cash fund.”


According to their report, the fund had been used for payments to the men

who burglarized the Democratic National Committee headquarters. The report

attributed its information to “federal investigators and accounts of sworn

testimony before the Watergate grand jury.” And the sourcing was incorrect.

As Carl Bernstein later explained on NPR.





right, the substance of it. What we had wrong was the attribution. It had

never come before the grand jury. It was the substance that was really

important, and at the same time, we had not been diligent in nailing this

down, this one aspect of it.




O`DONNELL:  And Bob Woodward will never forget what that felt like.




BOB WOODWARD, INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST (voice over):  This was one of the

real dreary days of our reporting life. In fact, I don`t think I`ve had one

that bad, because it was just flat-wrong.




O`DONNELL:  But the rest of Woodward and Bernstein reporting was right. And

in the end, Richard Nixon chose to resign the presidency rather than face

certain removal from office in an impeachment trial in the United States



Joining us now, David Corn, Washington bureau chief from Mother Jones and

an MSNBC political analyst. Also joining us, Elizabeth Drew, political

journalist and author whose book about Watergate is entitled, “Washington

Journal: The Events of 1973-1974.”


Elizabeth Drew, you were there. You read every one of these accounts as

they were emerging in The Washington Post and other reporters` coverage at

the time. Did we have other than this Woodward and Bernstein episode that

we now all look back on? Were there other such bumps in the journalistic

road in covering Nixon in those days and the unfolding of that scandal?


ELIZABETH DREW, POLITICAL JOURNALIST:  Nothing in that order, Lawrence. I

think a little perspective is in order here. Yes, it was a mistake. It was

a subject of headlines and head scratching and nothing – a White House

being investigated. They just love when some mistake is made because then

they denounce all of journalism.


Well, look at the end of the story. In the end, it didn`t matter all that

much. In a perfect world, no journalist`s story would ever be wrong at all.

But it`s going to happen. The question is, do they clean up their act

afterwards? I can`t tell you how appalled the people at the Post were and

people in the Democratic committee. They were very upset about it. But in

the scheme of things, it didn`t matter all that much.


O`DONNELL:  David Corn, your reaction to the BuzzFeed story tonight, and

its parallels to that Woodward and Bernstein mix-up, mistake, back in their

big days of covering Richard Nixon?



what they reported, Carl and Bob, you know, ended up being true. Though, as

they note, they got the attribution wrong and it gave the Nixon White House

and their detractors ammunition to go after them. What we don`t know yet is

whether BuzzFeed got it right, but somehow screwed it – you know, screwed

up the attribution or there was some miscommunication here.


But what do know, to get to Elizabeth`s point, that the big picture remains

that Donald Trump himself lied to the American public. He said he had

nothing to do with Russia while he was campaigning. Yet there he was,

pursuing a deal that would have enriched him to the tune of hundreds of

millions of dollars.


And that`s what Michael Cohen was trying to cover up. He says, you know –

he said publicly at his sentencing in sort of synchronization with what

Trump wanted. Whether he was directed to do this specifically or not. So

the big lie is out there. That`s, you know, the big story here. And it`s a

pity that now we are being distracted by what might have been a mistake by

BuzzFeed or might be an unclear statement by Mueller.


But I think at the end of the day, whether we have House Democrats

investigating this or Mueller giving us some more information, we will get

the truth of what really happened. And that will be the issue, not how it

was covered.


O`DONNELL:  And Elizabeth Drew, it might be Ben Bradlee who has the very

best line about how people out there and editors in these situations should

regard developments like this after reviewing how the mistake was made by

Woodward and Bernstein.


He had a few words with them about, you know, how they needed to clean up

their processes, make sure this would never happen again, and it didn`t

ever happen again. But he finished that discussion by saying to them, what

have you got for tomorrow? And that`s what really matters, isn`t it?


DREW:  That`s right. Tomorrow is another day and another story and other

stories. And I agree with – who was just talking – these things happen.

They don`t happen – the amazing thing is, they don`t happen very often. I

want to point something else out.


In Watergate, we had no cable. We had no internet. We had none of the

things that go on now. So you have that many more people reporting. In

Watergate, there weren`t that many on the story. So I think exponentially,

the odds on somebody getting something wrong at some point are all the



But keep in mind, the big picture. David was right. The big picture is

something happened here. We`ll find out what it was. But a lot of other

things happened, too. Even if this story didn`t exist. There is still a

very, very big story.


O`DONNELL:  And we all need patience and we all need to remember the

phrase, if true. Elizabeth Drew, David Corn, thank you for joining us on

that part of our discussion.


And when we come back, tomorrow`s breaking news. Tomorrow`s breaking news.

We`re going to cover it tonight. President Trump has announced that he is

going to make an important announcement about the shutdown tomorrow from

the White House at 3:00 p.m. Joy Reid will be covering that announcement

live for MSNBC right here. And she will join us to discuss the big news of

tomorrow. I`ll offer my wild guess about what Donald Trump just might

announce tomorrow.




O`DONNELL:  Just before 6:00 p.m. tonight, President Trump announced on

Twitter that he will make an announcement tomorrow afternoon at 3:00 p.m.

about the longest government shutdown in history, the shutdown that he

promised to start and take full blame for.


He made good on half of that promise.  He did start the shutdown.  But then

he blamed the people he promised not to blame, Congressional Democrats. 

But a senior administration official told “CBS News” that “Trump will

present what the White House believes could be a deal to end the shutdown.” 

The deal was largely influenced by talks between Vice President Mike Pence,

Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell, and Trump`s son-in-law, and Senior

Adviser Jared Kushner, who is not the speaker of the House.


Joy Reid and David Corn are back with us.  And Joy, this is the most

mysterious deal I`ve ever heard of.  Three Republicans get together in a

room.  What`s the deal?  Whatever it is, it`s not a deal.




O`DONNELL:  Because if you go to Capitol Hill to make a deal, you got to

have Nancy Pelosi in the room –


REID:  Correct.


O`DONNELL:  – you have to have Schumer.  You have to have Mitch McConnell. 

That`s who you need for a deal.  My own theory – I`m just going to get my

theory out of the way.


REID:  Get it out there.


O`DONNELL:  The only thing that he`s empowered to announce tomorrow is some

form of surrender, is to say, because of this, that, and the other thing,

we`re going to reopen the government.  And Mitch McConnell has promised

that there will be a vote in the United States Senate on the wall the day

after we reopen the government, you know, next Tuesday.  And Mitch

McConnell will, you know, bring that up for a vote and it won`t get the 60

votes and that`s the end of that.


REID:  And I think what makes your theory sound and what you`re saying

essentially is this will end the exact same way when the Democrats

attempted to do a shutdown that lasted a couple of days over DACA.  They

ended very quickly.  They didn`t like the public relations look.  And they

ended it for a promise from Mitch McConnell that he would bring up a

document that he never did.


So the only thing Mitch McConnell is empowered to deliver at this point

without Nancy Pelosi, the speaker of the House, is to put the, what, nine

bills that this – that the House has passed, that already had unanimous

consent from the Senate back on the Senate floor and pass them.  That`s all

Mitch McConnell can do by himself.  I`m not sure what Jared is doing there

but I guess he does everything.


But Mitch McConnell can do that.  And probably yes to your point, will

promise Donald Trump that the next thing he`ll do after those nine votes

and after the government is reopened – because I`m sure his members are



They`re having to fly home, going through TSA.  They`re going home to

states like Colorado and Oregon and all over this country where they`re

being screamed at.  They want the government back open.  That`s all Mitch

can do is give in.


O`DONNELL:  David Corn, big announcement, live, 3:00 p.m. tomorrow.  That`s

– the woman`s march will still be going on at that time, do we think?


REID:  We think it will be the end of it.


O`DONNELL:  So he didn`t time it as a direct conflict with the women`s

march.  He`s staying out of the way of that for the most part.  What can

possibly go wrong or go well?


DAVID CORN:  Your theory may come to pass.  I think we could come up with

alternative reality theories.  For instance, who remembers that big

immigration speech that Trump gave a week ago?  I mean it seems like seven

months ago and you can`t remember a single thing he said.


It`s quite possible he may forget about this announcement by 3:00 p.m.

tomorrow.  Or it`s quite possible that he may just want to say something

nasty about Nancy Pelosi.  He cares more about revenge and spite, I think,

than making a deal.


So I mean – I think anything is game here.  And the real question is, for

your theory to come true, Lawrence, it means that Trump is willing to stand

up to Ann Coulter and Rush Limbaugh because they will crucify him for

anything like that.  And he caved in once to them.  Is he ready now to not

cave into them?  Who knows?


O`DONNELL:  Joy, do you think there is any chance that in tomorrow`s

announcement by the president from the White House, he will find time to

explain why he would not authorize a government aircraft to carry the

speaker of the House to a war zone to visit American troops and commanders,

but he would authorize a government aircraft to fly his wife to Florida for

a long weekend?


REID:  For her vacation, yes.  I mean probably not.  He probably won`t get

to that.  Maybe that will be Jared`s portion of the afternoon because he

does need to have something to do, because he is getting to go, you know.


And not only that, but Donald Trump and his administration outed not one,

but two, you know, visits to Afghanistan, both the commercial and the

military flights, which actually is a threat to the security of those

involved in those delegations.  So he doesn`t really have any respect or

regard for the security of the speaker of the House or those involved in



The other thing he could do is deliver his State of the Union Address

because obviously, the speaker of the House said he ain`t doing it in the

House chambers.  So he could take advantage of the hour and do that.




CORN:  I would also make one prediction.


O`DONNELL:  Go ahead, David.


CORN:  He will claim that he won and this was the best shutdown ever.


O`DONNELL:  Yes, exactly.  Joy, I would love to be with you tomorrow for

the live coverage.


REID:  Yes.


O`DONNELL:  I`m going to be in a matinee over there.




O`DONNELL:  On Broadway, 2:00 p.m.  Kerry Washington`s play “American Sun”

which you`re going to see before it closes, right?


REID:  I`m going to see before it closes.


O`DONNELL:  Everyone`s going to see it.


REID:  Yes.


O`DONNELL:  Joy Reid, David Corn, thank you both for joining us.


And when we come back, the question of impeachment.  The question of

impeachment was already looming large in Washington this week.  Before last

night`s “BuzzFeed” story came out and raised it even more loudly.


We`re going to consider where the question of impeachment stands tonight. 

Should the House of Representatives wait until Robert Mueller has finished

his investigation, or should they do it the way they did it during the

Nixon presidency and have the House impeachment investigation take place at

the same time as the special prosecutor`s investigation?




O`DONNELL:  Impeach.  That is “The Atlantic`s” next cover story which won`t

be on the newsstands until February 12, but was rushed into publication

online earlier this week by “The Atlantic`s” editor by Jeffrey

Goldberg, because “the Trump-caused government shutdown unmatched in length

and consequence and the debate over whether the 45th president of the

United States is secretly operating on behalf of Russia.”


In the piece, Yoni Appelbaum makes the case that impeachment proceedings

should begin now in the House Judiciary Committee and not wait for the

conclusion of Robert Mueller`s investigation.  The article points out

that`s exactly how it worked in the case of President Richard Nixon, who

was being investigated by a special prosecutor at the same time that the

House Judiciary Committee was conducting its own impeachment investigation,

which eventually led to the committee passing three articles of impeachment

against Richard Nixon.


The evidence to impeach Richard Nixon was developed as a result of the

committee`s investigation.  The Judiciary Committee and the special

prosecutor investigating President Nixon both subpoenaed the White House

tapes that ultimately led to President Nixon`s resignation when the Supreme

Court ordered the president to turn over to the committee and the special

prosecutor the tapes that turned out to include the so-called smoking gun

of Richard Nixon`s own voice participating in the Watergate conspiracy in

the oval office.


The article in “The Atlantic” makes the argument Congress can`t outsource

its responsibilities to federal prosecutors, the process of impeachment

itself is likely to shift public opinion.  If Trump`s support among

Republican voters erodes, his support in the Senate may do the same.


The only way for the House to find out what Trump has actually done and

whether his conduct warrants removal is to start asking.  This is the essay

on impeachment that is going to be read by most Democratic Senators and

certainly, by all Democratic members of the House Judiciary Committee and

many Republicans.  And it will be read by the staff of every Senator and

every member of Congress, Democrat and Republican.


This is the important impeachment article of the year so far.  The

president of the United States is an unindicted co-conspirator in a

criminal federal case, where his former personal attorney, Michael Cohen,

confessed his guilt and claimed under oath that he committed those crimes

at the direction of Donald Trump.


Since that conspiracy was exposed in federal court in Manhattan and since

the election of a Democratic House of Representatives, the question seems

to have shifted from will there be an impeachment investigation in the

House to when will there be an impeachment investigation in the House.


To consider these questions from the important historical perspective of

the Nixon impeachment proceedings, we will be joined by two people who were

there during the Nixon investigation.


Former Congresswoman Elizabeth Holtzman who was one of the members of the

House Judiciary Committee during the Watergate investigation, one of the

members who recommended impeaching the president.  And Elizabeth Drew who

was covering it all for “The New Yorker” at that time and then wrote the

authoritative book on what drove Richard Nixon out of office.


They will both join us after this break.







through the months ahead for my personal vindication would almost totally

absorb the time and attention of both the president and the Congress in a

period when our entire focus should be on the great issues of peace abroad

and prosperity without inflation at home.  Therefore, I shall resign the

presidency effective at noon tomorrow.




O`DONNELL:  President Richard Nixon quit the fight because he was told by

Republicans in Congress that the articles of impeachment against him that

passed the House Judiciary Committee would definitely pass the House of

Representatives.  And he would then be convicted in an impeachment trial in

the United States Senate and removed from office.


Joining us now, two people who were there, Elizabeth Holtzman, former U.S.

Congresswoman and a member of that House Judiciary Committee that voted to

impeach President Nixon.  She is the author of “The Case for Impeaching

Trump.”  Also with us, author Elizabeth Drew.  She`s back with us.  She

covered Watergate for “The New Yorker” at that time.


And Congresswoman Holtzman, you were just reminding me of the sequence of

things and how it`s different today from what we saw there that your

impeachment hearings were able to use what came out of Senate general

investigative hearings, just the Senate-ran hearings about the Watergate

scandal that did not have a particular mission in mind other than fact-

finding.  They found those facts, you used them.



That`s correct.  And not only did they find the facts, but they educated

the public, which was vital.  Because what we have now is the only basic

hearings that have been held, have been behind closed doors, the Senate

Intelligence Committee, House Intelligence Committee, a lot of other

witnesses have been in secret.  The public hasn`t really seen their



We have Mueller`s hearings, Mueller`s proceedings, all you do is see

someone standing up in court pleading guilty, but that`s not the same as

public testimony, which is what the Senate Watergate committee did.  And

then, that educated the public.


The Saturday night massacre, the American people said no, the president

can`t pick his prosecutor.  And at that point, the House Judiciary

Committee came into focus on impeachment, not until then.


O`DONNELL:  And now you also just told me during the break, that you

members of the House Judiciary Committee, many of you were agitating to get

started on impeachment proceedings and the Democratic leadership of the

House was doing what?


HOLTZMAN:  Saying no.


O`DONNELL:  Just like today?


HOLTZMAN:  Just like today, because in a way you can understand it.  For

us, the only impeachment that we knew of was Andrew Johnson.  That was a

failure.  And they were very worried that the same thing was going to

happen again.


Today, most people remember the Clinton impeachment.  That was a failure. 

American people didn`t support that.  That was a partisan effort.  So the

leadership says, that didn`t work for the Republicans, why should we do it



But the point that I want to make is that when we started the impeachment

hearings, the American people forced the Congress to act.  They said

enough, President Nixon can`t fire the special counsel prosecutor, this is

a country with a rule of law, you got to do something.  And then there were

no polls.


We didn`t take a nose count in the House Judiciary Committee.  We didn`t

have any idea what the House would do.  We certainly didn`t know what the

Senate was going to go.  And we didn`t even know what impeachment was.


We had to start from scratch.  But we did it the right way.  We had the

facts, solid evidence, and the American people supported.


O`DONNELL:  And Elizabeth Drew, you were covering all of this from the

special prosecutor`s investigation which is also going on while the Senate

public hearings.  That`s where we discovered there was a tape system in the

White House.


We discovered all of the great drama, really, publicly in those Senate

hearings.  And then you also covered the impeachment hearings that

Elizabeth Drew – Elizabeth Holtzman was part of and that you voted on.


Was there any big – was there any sense in Washington at the time that

this should be slowed down, everyone should wait for the special prosecutor

to finish doing the special prosecutor`s work?



entirely different special prosecutor`s mission at that point.  Right now,

what you have is a set of very serious and important questions and only the

special prosecutor can get the answer to.  And that is, did the Russians

try to affect our election?


I think the verdict is in on that, yes.  The other one is, did the

president cooperate with, conspire with, collude with, whatever, he and his

campaign with them?  you can`t get that anyplace else.  And so I do think

that the special prosecutor`s role this time is much larger than it was



Lawrence, can I sort of just add one thing before we all get dug in on this

fact?  As you mentioned, the House Judiciary Committee voted three articles

of impeachment.  It was understood – before that piece of tape was found,

it was well understood that these were going to be carried by the House and

that the president`s support in the Senate had collapsed.  The only thing

that that piece of tape did was speed it up, but he was going to get

impeached and convicted anyway


O`DONNELL:  And Elizabeth Holtzman, talk about how the Saturday night

massacre changed everything in Washington when President Nixon fired the

special prosecutor.  And it looked like everything had been derailed?


HOLTZMAN:  Well, the thing that was really important was because they were

public hearings, the Senate had public hearings and John Dean had testified

at those hearings and said “I told the president there was a cancer on the

presidency.  I told the president that hush money was being paid to the

burglars.  I told the president that pardons were being offered to the



And the president said basically I know where the money can be gotten and

he didn`t have any objection to the pardons.  And then the president said,

“Well, no, I never said that.” When the special prosecutor – so you had

the president, on one hand, Dean on the other hand.


And so when the special prosecutor was trying to get the tapes, everybody

in the country understood what the significance of the tapes was.  They

were going to prove whether Dean was telling the truth or the president was

telling the truth.


Here, we don`t have that kind of educational background and that`s what`s

vital.  And I do think the special counsel prosecutor, while he plays an

important role, doesn`t preclude Congress from acting now.  We don`t have

to wait for the special prosecutor.  Congress needs to start looking

immediately into whether the president has engaged in various kinds of

misdeeds, including with Michael Cohen.


O`DONNELL:  Elizabeth Holtzman and Elizabeth Drew, thank you both for

joining us very much tonight.  Really appreciate it.


Tonight`s last word is next.




O`DONNELL:  Time for tonight`s and this week`s last word.





no collusion.  And you didn`t say it once or twice, you said it a bunch of



RUDY GUILIANI, SPECIAL COUNSEL:  Russian collusion.  Here`s what they

found, zero, nada, nothing.  If anything, it`s proof there was no

collusion.  Nobody talked about Russians.  Nobody knew about Russians.


There was no collusion with the Russians.  No collusion with the Russians. 

There was no collusion.  There was no Russian collusion.


No Russian collusion, case over.  Was there collusion?  Come on, nobody

believes there was collusion


MEYERS:  Think about how much their argument has changed.  It went from

there were no contacts with Russians, to there was no collusion with

Russians, to we tried to collude but nothing came of it, to collusion is

not a crime, to there was collusion but it didn`t involve Trump.  If this

keeps going, Rudy is going to be telling Trump, it`s not jail, it`s a gated






11TH HOUR” with Brian Williams starts now.




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