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Trump demands wall funding. TRANSCRIPT: 12/27/2018, The Last Word w. Lawrence O'Donnell.

Guests: Aisha Moodie-Mills; Jason Johnson; Gerry Cohen

Show: THE LAST WORD WITH LAWRENCE O`DONNELL Date: December 27, 2018 Guest: Aisha Moodie-Mills; Jason Johnson; Gerry Cohen

ARI MELBER, MSNBC HOST: Good evening, Joy. Thank you very much.

As mentioned, I am Ari Melber, in for Lawrence O`Donnell.

We begin tonight with a basic truth. This is not normal. The federal government entering its sixth day of a shutdown that the president said would be his fault. The stock market continuing wild swings down and back up today which is at least partly linked to the chaos in Washington. And as Democrats ready to take over the House next week, polling shows opposition to Trump and a widespread view he does indeed own this shutdown.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I will take the mantle. I will be the one to shut it down. I`m not going to blame you for it. The last time you shut it down, it didn`t work. I will take the mantel for shutting it down.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MELBER: And here`s your report card, Mr. President, tonight, Americans agreed by a 14-point margin, saying Trump is to blame for this young shutdown. Here are the new numbers from "Reuters". The poll shows 47 percent say Trump deserves most of the blame, 33 percent blame the Democrats, 7 percent blame the remaining Republicans in Congress. Another poll finding another 43 percent blaming Trump, and those bad vibes for the shutdown, well, they`re spreading and contaminating Trump`s overall approval, because it`s plummeted to just 39 percent with 56 percent disapproval.

Now, that is bad. You hear these numbers a lot in politics and it`s easy for them to kind of, like, blend together to serve a point. But stop and think about it like this: the Democrats just won the mid-terms by a larger margin, 8 percent, than the national margin for other widely celebrated waves like the Republicans` 1994 revolution which made Newt Gingrich speaker, 8 percent.

This new approval polls show Trump under water, though, by 17 percent tonight. That is way worse than that midterm stomping which as we just showed was itself a historic margin. Donald Trump is dealing with this by -- well, no, by not dealing with it. He offered several statements and tweets today that basically claimed the shutdown would help his reelection, lied about who was impacted by the shutdown, and we`re not going to show you the tweet of the president lying about the shutdown because it`s not true and doesn`t merit any further amplification here.

But we will show you Donald Trump, this is just two days ago, claiming federal workers want him to shutdown their place of work.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Well, I think they understand what`s happening. They want border security. The people of this country want border security. Many of those workers have said to me and communicated, stay out until you get the funding for the wall. These federal workers want the wall.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MELBER: A, it`s not true. B, a more minor point, how are all these federal workers communicating directly with Donald Trump about their policy views? I mean, by what mechanism did he gather that or claim to gather that opinion?

Now, let`s show you some facts about the public opinion, since that is part of any shutdown debate. Most Americans oppose Trump`s shutdown and just 35 percent of those surveyed in this "Reuters" poll say they backed including money for the wall in the first place for the bill. Only 25 percent took the more extreme bargaining position here they would support both the wall and the mechanism of Donald Trump shutting down the entire federal government, quote, over the matter.

And a lame duck Congress hasn`t done much this week to move the ball in any which way. Mitch McConnell`s Senate back in session today for a grand total of 4 minutes before adjourning, a symbolic number that was echoed by the lower chamber. Paul Ryan`s House was in session for two minutes and 43 seconds.

Now, one Democratic congressman tried to use those moments, literally moments to force a vote to fund the government without getting into the wall debate. Now, the next time you`ll see any of those politicians you just saw on your screen there either to do nothing, the next time we see that will be Monday. So, government stays closed at least until then.

And meanwhile, the expected incoming speaker of the House, Nancy Pelosi, making it clear she does not intend to blink and she`ll only send-up spending bills when she takes charge that fund the government but not Trump`s wall. The reporting from "Politico" here is that House Democrats believe that move would put pressure on Mitch McConnell to follow suit, and they`re confident that political leverage will only increase the longer the shutdown lasts, the notion that some GOP leaders agree with privately.

How long will congressional Republicans back up Trump on the task that may continue to hurt their party? Well, a normal president would take any sustained push back from his own party seriously on a fight that by definition cannot last forever because the government cannot stay closed forever. But I`ll tell you this because I like to keep it real with you guys, that normal premise is a thin foundation to work off of because as we all know now, there is nothing normal about this.

Now let`s get into it. I`ve got Jason Johnson here, politics editor of TheRoot.com, Mara Gay, member of "New York Times" editorial board, and Jennifer Rubin, a conservative opinion writer at "The Washington Post," all MSNBC contributors.

Jennifer, where do we go from here?

JENNIFER RUBIN, CONSERVATIVE OPINION WRITER, THE WASHINGTON POST: There is no good solution for Donald Trump because as you mentioned, Ari, Nancy Pelosi is going to send a clean CR, clean continuing resolution back to the Senate. The Senate already passed one of these. So, what do they say now? Well, we voted for it before but we`re not going to vote for it now?

Perhaps they added a few hundred million dollars but not directly for the wall, that`s a loss for Trump. Maybe someone gets really creative, follows Newt Gingrich`s advice which is to give him $5 billion but give full legalization for the Dreamers. That will really drive his base crazy.

So, there`s really three or four ways out of this, and none of them are getting Trump what he wants. So he`s looking for some deus ex machina to come down and save him perhaps, or he`s just thinking moment to moment, TV shot to TV shot, and really hasn`t figured out to get out of this.

But there`s no good end for this and at some point Republicans are going to throw up their hands and say we need to get back to work.

MELBER: You say at some point, I that`s a big part of this. There were some Republicans on MSNBC just earlier this evening, Jason, still making the delay argument, that, yes, it looks like Mexico is not paying for it and it looks like Donald Trump literally shutdown the government in order to break his promise because his promise was the U.S. wouldn`t pay for the wall and he`s shutdown the government now to try and make the U.S. pay for the wall.

Viewers on MSNBC may note I said that before, I will never stop reporting that fact. It`s amazing to me people talk about this and claim the president`s trying to hold a campaign promise. He`s trying to break a campaign promise.

So, for your analysis take a look at connecting Jennifer`s point of what Republicans are doing. Here how they are holding the line tonight.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST: Why are we shutting down our government to pay for the wall that Mexico`s going to pay for?

REP. MICHAEL BURGESS (R), TEXAS: Well, first of all, this is not the final act in this drama and the wall is the first step. The pay for-it part may well come later. Right now, the issue is border security and the president is exactly correct, exactly correct --

HAYES: What you`re saying is you keep asking the American people to pay for something that the president promised them --

(CROSSTALK)

HAYES: Get Mexico to pay for the wall if you want a wall so bad. It`s very clear.

BURGESS: And they will. That`s the final step in this process.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(LAUGHTER)

JASON JOHNSON, POLITICS EDITOR, THEROOT.COM: I love this 12-step process that the Republicans are in where apparently we pay for the wall, our tax money pays for the wall and somewhere down the line, open the door and decides to get the Mexican government to pay for a wall that they never wanted to pay for and that the last two including the former president of Mexico, Vicente Fox, used many words of profanity to say that Mexico will never pay for.

Here`s the issue. At the end of the day, the president has absolutely no leverage. The Senate doesn`t have any leverage. And once we hit January 3rd and the Democrats take over the House, they`re just going to keep pushing the bill over and over. Eventually, the president of the United States is going to blink.

Eventually, people are going to start getting angry. Eventually FEMA`s inability to process insurance forms, people are going to get concerned about tax season, the president is eventually just going to have to break on this issue. And here`s a thing -- and a lot of political science has shown this, as much as President Trump wants to say this wall is very important, the wall has been symbolic. His supporters are going to support them no matter.

And if the wall doesn`t get built, they`ll just say it`s because of the evil liberal Democrat. So, he kind of wins regardless. But he`s not going to get anything built, and there`s nobody in Washington, D.C. right here right now that thinks that anything, even if it`s just a bunch of spiky slats are ever going to get put up on our border.

MARA GAY, EDITORIAL BOARD MEMBER, THE NEW YORK TIMES: I can`t agree anymore. I think ultimately the president needs to say he won something, he needs to be able to turn to his base in good faith, whatever that means with that weird relationship he has with his base and say, listen, I had a win, I`m a fighter. You know, he can make a win out of anything because he`s a con-artist, so that`s really his job here.

I think Mitch McConnell has a more serious job to play which is finding out how to negotiate that without putting the American people through anymore suffering.

MELBER: Right, and that really goes back to what the Congress wants to put up with as we were explaining in our lead.

And, Jennifer, I don`t know how much Naughty By Nature you ever listen to - - you remember them?

RUBIN: Yes.

MELBER: But the big hit was "OPP", "Other People`s Property". And it does seem if the president as the so-called master negotiator got other people`s property or cash invested in the wall it would be less of an issue. At what point does the Republican Party say we`re shining a giant spotlight on the ultimate failure of his inability to negotiate as commander in chief, president of the United States, to get other people`s money to fund the wall?

RUBIN: Yes. I see a whole bunch of ways in which there are going to be Republicans out there actually getting to Donald Trump`s right, whether on this issue, whether people like Liz Cheney bashing the president for pulling troops out of Syria, he`s not on a roll these days and he`s not on a roll with Republicans. And that`s a bit different than what we saw for the past two years. He`s now in the realm of making himself look like the dreaded Barack Obama from the perspective of Republicans than the tough guy who is making America respected in the world.

And even things like his support for Israel are now really under scrutiny by the religious right who love Israel for a whole variety of reasons. He`s putting them in harms way now by pulling troops out of Syria, by putting Iran right on the doorstep of Israel. Whether it`s that, whether it`s the wall, whether it`s the shutdown, whether it`s donors money in the markets, which is going up and down like a yo-yo, you do wonder just how much patience they`re going to have with this guy when its there money, when its their interest suddenly are at issue.

MELBER: Yes, I think that`s what`s challenging about your job, about all our jobs is we report and analyze in this era, right, it`s sort of like how much mushier can oatmeal get. It`s oatmeal. It`s already mushy, right?

GAY: Right, sure.

MELBER: This is very, very impulsive president. But do you see, at "The New York Times", as you guys chart all this, do you see evidence of even more chaos and impulsiveness as the president goes into what will be a more difficult period for him? I mean, the days of united government are over. He has to win another election, which is full two years away to ever get back to where he was.

Everything now starting next week is harder for him.

GAY: Oh, absolutely. My colleague Kara Fisher (ph) had a great column about the president`s increasingly bad addiction to Twitter. And the basic concept being that he`s essentially in a meltdown and that as the walls are closing in with the Russia investigation but also of course with the loss, the historic loss that Republicans suffered in the midterms that he`s essentially freaking out and, you know, caged animals can be very dangerous.

So I`m actually a little bit concerned about what we might see as the president is, you know, not getting his way. And he`s used to getting his way. I mean, before he was president, he suffered no consequences for his behavior in real estate. And now as President up until the midterms, he`s really not seen the consequences of his behavior.

He`s crossed every single line, ethical, moral line that the American people have put out for their presidents and suffered no consequences until now. So what happens when he doesn`t get his way?

I mean, he`s completely erratic when he wins. What`s he going to be like when he loses? Is he going to be a good loser? I don`t think so.

MELBER: I don`t think so.

Jason?

JOHNSON: And this goes to the whole approval ratings. I mean, he`s at 39 percent. He doesn`t have the ability to sort of use the bully pulpit at the White House.

I mean, the president is upset. He`s under 50 percent, right? I mean, he can`t do anything to convince members of his own party or anybody else that this is somebody you have to listen to, that he`s got some sort of influence one way or another.

But here is where it becomes sort of an issue long-term. Look, the Democrats are going to start running their primary around February, March. If the president cannot put more control over members of his own party, if he can`t convince them that that 39 percent can somehow translate into power for their bases, they`re going to abandon him.

I mean, if you look at his approval numbers, these are the numbers he had after Charlottesville. That means the president is as unpopular now as he was when a terrorist attack killed a young white woman in Virginia and his own wife. He`s at 43 percent. And usually, the first lady is 10 to 12 percent higher than her husband.

So, he`s not only bad for himself, he`s bad for his party, he`s even bad for the people he`s married to.

MELBER: Well, as they say, snap.

GAY: I think there`s nothing really to say after that. It`s true.

MELBER: Jason, Mara has decided we`re ending the show. We may end all news coverage for the night or the week. There is nothing else to say.

Look, in fairness to Melania Trump and I think what you`re saying may speak to this, it may be a lot more of his problems rubbing off on her than anything she`s doing or not doing. She keeps a lighter schedule. But a woman that Joy Reid was speaking about, former First Lady Michelle Obama famously kept a lighter schedule than former first ladies and was much more beloved than was the administration she was a part of.

Final thought, Jennifer?

RUBIN: Listen, we went through this year through the funerals of George H.W. Bush, Barbara Bush, John McCain. These were giants, these were heroes, these were dedicated public servants. And I think even that, the comparison of what we had in the past and what we have now is jarring, upsetting and disillusioning for Americans.

MELBER: Well, it`s disillusioning and yet the larger point you`re appealing to is something positive --

RUBIN: Yes.

MELBER: -- which is not just partisan comparisons, not just team red or blue. The outpouring for Bush Sr., whether one, agree or disagree with some of his policies, the respect for him as a person of public service and dignity in contrast to what you`re seeing today is at least the -- well, the silver lining to (INAUDIBLE) would say, touch of grey.

Jennifer and Jason, come back.

Mara, we thank you for joining us at the top of the show.

Coming up, as I was just discussing with the panel, the Obama factor. Former President Obama useful for Democrats in the midterms, the numbers show, which, of course, helped that historic number of seats they gained. Now heading into 2020, we`re going to look at how his support could impact this crowded Democratic field that`s widely expected.

And also, conflicting answers about Trump`s willingness to take anymore questions from Bob Mueller. Why is Rudy Giuliani piping up about this today? We`ll get into that tonight.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MELBER: Donald Trump`s lawyer walking back comments he recently made suggesting that the president could agree to take more questions if it becomes necessary from special counsel Mueller.

Today though in a new interview with Hill TV, Rudy Giuliani says Mueller`s team won`t get anymore answers from Trump.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

THE HILL: Do you expect he`s going to have to answer more questions in writing?

RUDY GIULIANI, TRUMP ATTORNEY: Well, I think I announced about 10 days ago, over my dead body, and I`m not dead yet, so.

THE HILL: That answers that. As a former federal --

GIULIANI: He is not answering any more questions from these people. They are outrageous activity. I`m, I`m, you know, we did enough.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

MELBER: Talking tough. Did enough.

But Giuliani also said a day earlier something a little different, speaking to "The Daily Beast" because, you know, as a lawyer he`s constantly talking to reporters. He outlined over negotiations whether Mueller could question the president actually remained open. He was asked was he understanding was Mueller could still look to interview Trump whether over the phone, in person, or et cetera.

And Giuliani says, well, it hasn`t been formally closed yet. Trump`s legal team submitted those written answers to Mueller`s team last month. Now, those questions, according to all public accounts that we know about, Mueller`s team hasn`t confirmed it or anything, but they were allegedly linked to Russian interference. That was the focus. So, things could change if Mueller subpoenas the president to talk about follow-up questions or other topics entirely.

Giuliani did one other thing today that lawyers don`t usually do for their clients. He went from making a legal defense, which is totally kosher, to explain your client`s position within the eyes of the law, to making a personal defense, literally offering a personal alibi for Trump`s conduct during the end of the campaign.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

GIULIANI: I was with the president over the last four months of the campaign, virtually all day and into the night until he went back to his home. And there was no contact with WikiLeaks. None.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

MELBER: I`m joined my former federal prosecutor Joyce Vance and Jennifer Rubin back with me.

Joyce, have you ever seen a lawyer make that kind of argument? Not only do I have kind of a legal case for my client, but by the way, I spend all my time with him and I know he couldn`t have done anything wrong?

JOYCE VANCE, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: A lawyer who makes that sorts of allegations particularly a lawyer who doesn`t appear to be actively engaged in lawyering with this particular client really runs perilously close to becoming a fact witness which prosecutors might want to question. And that seems to be what Giuliani does here.

MELBER: I mean, yes. When you say fact witness, that`s one of the things lawyers talk about. It`s like the way that Rod Rosenstein, who is Mueller`s boss, ultimately might be called in to confirm or deny certain underlying facts, right? You`re suggesting that Rudy opens himself up to that if his claim is, oh, I watched everything and we never contacted WikiLeaks?

VANCE: You know, the lawyer-client privilege would protect legal communications between an attorney and his client, but this looks to be an entirely different realm that sort of vouching that Rudy is engaging in.

MELBER: So, I think what you`re saying in your normally careful and even nice way is, this is mad sloppy and Rudy was not retained as a lawyer in that period, he was a campaign surrogate and so he`s sort of cracked the door. Whether he gets in trouble for it or whether Mueller doesn`t care about the 87th interview is an open question.

Jennifer, we heard earlier today on MSNBC from Walter Dellinger, who was the solicitor-general who argued the Jones-Clinton case which has some precedent that tends to cut against precedents in terms of their efforts to avoid interviews with prosecutors and such, and here`s what he said to me earlier tonight about the idea that Mueller may ultimately subpoena Trump in 2019.

(BEGN VIDEO CLIP)

WALTER DELLINGER, FORMER ACTING SOLICITOR GENERAL UNDER CLINTON: What the special counsel wants to know about what Donald Trump`s state of mind is, if he`s considering perhaps even just naming him an unindicted conspirator, he needs I think he could easily take an expedited case from the grand jury of the president up to the Supreme Court and they could hear that case. They could also hear a case involving the House`s decision if it comes to that subpoena the Mueller report.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MELBER: Jennifer, do you think this is something that the White House is still worried would be on the table?

RUBIN: I think so. Listen, Rudy is not the real lawyer. Trump does have real lawyers. They`re not very good, but he does have real lawyers back there.

And they are smart enough, even they to understand that the law is not on their side. Between U.S. v. Nixon and the Paula Jones case, the judicial system`s right to obtain evidence from a president, to put him under oath, to get information is on fairly solid ground.

Now, could he take an appeal to the Supreme Court and with his two appointees perhaps get a different ruling? Perhaps. But he`s not out of the woods yet.

I disagree slightly with Walter on one thing and that is Trump may actually may have revealed a good deal of the state of his mind through his tweets, through his actions and in those written questions. So, Trump has a way of telling us exactly what he`s thinking and what he`s doing and why. So, it may be it`s not as important as it may be with another to get Trump under oath.

But, frankly, I think if Mueller feels there`s a sense of completeness or if he`s really lacking some facts that he needs to put him under oath and take his testimony, I don`t think he has to do it at all.

MELBER: Joyce, another story that`s making waves today which Michael Cohen was quick to publicly and unequivocally deny is this reporting that maybe there were cellphone pings that would somehow link him back to Prague. He`s denied it. Those reporters standby their story, McClatchy. Some of them have been out discussing their story tonight.

Take a listen to how one of the reporters described it on "ALL IN."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PETER STONE, MCCLATCHY SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT: This is a part of a large, wide-ranging investigation. And this part could well be or it seems to us to be still under scrutiny.

CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST, "ALL IN": I see.

STONE: And therefore, if he didn`t have it all nailed down -- I mean, it`s one thing to nail down certain details which he obviously did in regard to the lies to Congress about the Trump Tower, where Cohen acknowledged the contact continued for six months after what he previously told Congress. Our understanding is that this part is once again still under scrutiny.

HAYES: I see.

STONE: And, you know, it`s taking more time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MELBER: Joyce, do you buy that, because the quick counter argument to that is Mueller knows what he`s doing and Cohen is at a different place now having been credited with incredible testimony?

VANCE: Yes, it`s really hard what to make of this story with Cohen jumping quickly onto Twitter to deny it. I think it`s possible Michael Cohen`s phone could have been in Prague and Michael Cohen could have been somewhere else.

He has this interesting drop line on his Twitter feed where he says, you know, I`m told that Prague is beautiful in the spring, or whatever it is that he says, maybe whoever had his phone is the person who conveyed that to him. One has the feeling here that this is sort of a pregnant pause, that there`s more to this story. Clearly Mueller knows where this is headed and we don`t. And I think for now, I think it has to be a tantalizing, unfinished detail.

MELBER: Joyce Vance, and Jennifer Rubin, thanks to both of you.

Up ahead, the new Congress will be seated in days but it`s almost certain one seat in the North Carolina 9th congressional district will be empty. There`s more evidence of a pretty brazen vote tampering scheme piling up. We`re going to have that story coming up.

For the first time in 17 years, Hillary Clinton no longer the most admired woman in America. We`ll tell you who, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MELBER: Donald Trump famously watches a lot of the news. But for his sake maybe it would be good if he doesn`t watch this particular segment because we can tell you the votes are in and we now know the most admired Americans of the year.

Here we are at the end of 2018. And topping the list are two very famous individuals who happen to be Democrats. Former first lady Michelle Obama has been formally voted America`s most admired woman. This is in Gallup`s nonpartisan annual poll. Her husband, former President Barack Obama, America`s most admired man, a title he`s held for 11 consecutive years.

So while president and now while post-president, not displaced by the current president. Now, both the former president and first lady were active in the 2018 campaigns and the midterms speaking at over a dozen rallies around the nation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: You can choose hope over fear. You can choose a bigger more prosperous, more generous, kinder version of America.

MICHELLE OBAMA, FORMER FIRST LADY OF THE UNITED STATES: What we need to do is bridge the gap between caring about that kind of stuff and actually doing something about it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MELBER: Michelle Obama`s activities have stayed fairly civic but Barack Obama is looking political. "Vanity Affair" reports that he`s already been meeting with presidential hopefuls including people like Beto O`Rourke, of course his former running mate Joe Biden who may run this time, we just don`t know.

Meanwhile, a former Obama advisor saying his position this time is if you`re serious and you want to talk, I`ll talk to you. As things unfold, he might say let`s all stay focused but, and it`s a big but, he`s not going to pick a winner.

I`m joined by Democratic Strategist Aisha Moodie-Mills and Jason Johnson, back with us.

We`ll get to those politics. But what does it tell you to see these people on the most admired list here at the end of this very, very divided 2018?

AISHA MOODIE-MILLS, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: It tells us that first of all Americans are tired of being divided. I mean the fact that Barack and Michelle are both aspirational. They`re about hope. They`re about change. They`re about moving people to be their best selves is really telling about like where we are right now as Americans and where the appetite is for the mess that`s going on in politics.

The other thing that I would add that`s interesting, I appreciate your lead in talking about how Michelle Obama has been really civic. This lady right now is literally selling out stadiums with her book tour. She has sold so many books right now. She`s literally broken records.

I don`t want to undercount and support to underscore the impact that she`s actually going to have in mobilizing the Democratic base to come out and support whoever the candidate is. Because I think that she`s actually going to rally the troops in a more urgent way than perhaps the president.

MELBER: Jason?

JOHNSON: You can`t get much bigger than this, OK? Michelle Obama is going to be taking her Becoming Tour to London in April this year. And the special guest might be Meghan Markle. Do you know how popular you have to be, not just in America but on the entire planet, when the Duchess of Sussex is maybe your kind of opening act, right?

Michelle Obama has always run, you know, 5 to 10 points of Barack Obama. But this Becoming book has turned her into a cultural phenomenon, the likes of which we haven`t seen since Oprah probably 20 to 25 years ago.

And I think that her very existence had always been political as the first African-American first lady, as a woman who had her own career, as a woman who dared to actually occasionally be critical and talk about her husband in humanizing ways. So she is going to be a dynamic force.

Look, if I was running for office in 2020, which obviously I`m not, but if I was, after I talk to Barack, I would talk to Michelle. Because in all honesty, she`s going to be the person that you`re going to hit on the ground in South Carolina. She`s going to be the person you`re going to hit on the ground in Georgia if you`re going to be competitive in 2020 as much as Barack.

MELBER: Well, you`re saying she might be going to the U.K. with Meghan Markle. As you know, Jason, no greater authority on doing what you want and the rapper Future said, "You do what you want when you pop in."

JOHNSON: Yes.

MOODIE-MILLS: Let`s not forget who`s number -- who`s also number three on the list, who`s number two right behind Michelle Obama is Oprah Winfrey, right. So we also have two black women who are at the top of that list. Again mobilizing women to come out and vote. I think that that`s going to be huge because they`re both rock stars.

MELBER: So let`s get into that a little bit since you bring that up.

MOODIE-MILLS: Yes.

MELBER: We can get into it, right?

MOODIE-MILLS: Yes.

MELBER: How do you deal with America`s clear excitement about some black women, Oprah and Michelle, while America also still struggles with putting women in positions of power? In other words, would America love Oprah as much if she said I want to be president?

MOODIE-MILLS: Well, the 2018 midterms showed us that America actually does love women. We see a record number of women coming to Congress right now and a record number of women of color. So I think all those tides are changing.

And I also have to add the fact that Donald Trump only gets nine percent on this list. Yes, it makes him number two but it`s only nine percent.

MELBER: Are you sure --

MOODIE-MILLS: So we`re talking about America generally --

MELBER: Are you sure you`re not in a Trump segment? We`re talking about Trump earlier --

MOODIE-MILLS: We are talking about America generally.

MELBER: Why are you trying to bring Trump into the Obama Oprah segment?

JOHNSON: This is --

MOODIE-MILLS: Michelle Obama, Barack Obama, Oprah Winfrey are the majority of the love and the passion of all Americans. The three of them, that`s all we need to move the needle, period.

MELBER: I mean, look, everyone understands at home we`re all independent here so everyone can say anything. I`m not going to stop you. But, Jason, this was an Obama Oprah segment and now we`ve got the man in here.

JOHNSON: For a long time -- and everybody`s going to be saying this until someone becomes more popular than Barack Obama. Our president is black and probably will be its represent for probably good 8 to 10 years. I mean the outgoing president, if you leave relatively popular, you`re going to stay that popular.

What I do think is this though. We can`t forget that going into 2020, whether it`s Ocasio-Cortez, whether it`s Stacey Abrams in Georgia, there are going to be other popular black women. Remember, she`s not on the Gallup list but Stacey Abrams was the most Googled politician in the midterms in 2018.

So there are a plenty of powerful African-American men and women who are going to be the key decision makers in 2020. And as unhappy as Joe Biden may happen to be at this point because Barack hasn`t had a conversation with him, look he picked the wrong side in Georgia too.

So I think there are a lot of people going to be on that short list of people that the president may sort of let it leak that he had a conversation with. Joe Biden is not going to be one of those people because he can`t win.

MOODIE-MILLS: Kamala Harris, just saying.

JOHNSON: I don`t think she can win either but we`ll see.

MELBER: Why don`t you think she can win? This is a feisty segment. I`m just talking about who`s admired and now it`s just all over the place. Go ahead, sir.

JOHNSON: Well, I think that the criminal justice background of Senator Harris from the State of California is going to present some real problems when she gets to the primary. I think that the idea that you have prison labor that are fighting the wild fires out there, these are all things that occurred during the time when she was A.G.

It doesn`t mean that the things that she`s done in the Senate haven`t been great. It doesn`t mean that she hasn`t been very active in criminal justice since she`s got to the Senate.

But I think in a Democratic primary where what you did at the state level is going to matter, I think she`s going to have a lot of difficulty. And if she doesn`t end up winning one of the first three primaries by the time he gets to South Carolina, she`ll be done by super Tuesday.

MOODIE-MILLS: Perhaps.

JOHNSON: I know the K hive is going to come after me but.

MOODIE-MILLS: They are. And so here`s the thing. Even if she doesn`t win, I think that she`s going to have a huge factor in bringing people out. At the end of the day, 2020 is going to be about the mobilization of the base. And all the people that we`re talking about and we -- you know, we`re talking about the Obamas. We`re talking about Kamala Harris. Those are the people who are really inspiring the people who show up and push whoever the candidate is over the edge.

So we can`t discount her because her power is going to matter. And the fact that she`s in that field is absolutely going to matter.

MELBER: Also, Jason, we`re writing down your prediction because pundit predictions about these races, well, they`re usually not right. We`ll run it back for you someday.

Jason, Aisha, my thanks to both of you.

Up next, there`s actually breaking news in another midterm story. This is the outstanding race in North Carolina 9th Congressional district.

But first, Christmas may be over but we want to tell you on behalf of Lawrence, you can still donate to the K.I.N.D. fund. That`s Kids In Need of Desks, a partnership that Lawrence created with MSNBC and UNICEF to provide desks to schools in Malawi that had never had desks and scholarships for girls and young women to attend high school in Malawi where public high school is not free. And the graduation rate there for young girls is much lower than it is for boys.

You can contribute any amount at lastworddesks.msnbc.com. That`s lastworddesks.msnbc.com. You can also make donations in honor of friends and family and UNICEF will send them an acknowledgement of your gift. Anything you can do to contribute does make a difference for these people.

Now, we will be right back.

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MELBER: One week from today, the winners of the 2018 midterm elections will formally take their seats in the new 116th Congress. But get this, for the first time, and we checked, 34 years, Congress will enter its next session with one election still outstanding because the race you may have heard about, North Carolina`s 9th district continues to be plagued by what are now quite clearly credible allegations of election rigging that were made on behalf of the GOP candidate Mark Harris.

An operative named McCray Dowless who worked for the Harris campaign and was hired at the direction of Harris himself accused of having paid people to collect absentee ballots from voters and bring them to him. Now sworn affidavits claim that he told people in the community that they basically destroyed whatever would have been potential ballots voting for Democrats.

Now, others have claimed that this team call it a sort of Republican fraud team, was filling out ballots on behalf of voters. Now, Dowless`s lawyers still claim, we want to report for you, they say he did nothing illegal whatsoever.

Now, the North Carolina Board of Elections refuse to certify this election results because Harris won by just 905 votes. And under state law, they could soon decide to hold a whole new election for this seat. Now, the fight for that election moves into the state legislature and there`s a bill passed by the Republican controlled North Carolina House and Senate mandating that should the elections board decide to hold a new congressional election, they would also have to hold a new primary as well.

And then it includes a provision that would make future boards on election investigations secret. A lot of people don`t like the way this smells. Democratic Governor Roy Cooper vetoing the bill saying it would basically "protect politicians" who commit fraud. Now, the Republican controlled legislature then overruled that veto today.

So this is all unfolding before our eyes in what would otherwise be a sleepy holiday week. And tonight, there is now brand new breaking news on this story that opens up a new possibility. Could Speaker Pelosi ultimately decide what happens to this House seat? Well, we have the latest from North Carolina elections law expert on all of this straight ahead.

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MELBER: One week after the midterm elections, North Carolina congressional candidate Mark Harris tweeted this picture of himself in freshman orientation with other newly elected members of Congress, the freshmen class.

But now, Mr. Harris may find himself in Washington next year not as a member of Congress but, well, frankly the subject of a looming investigation into possible election fraud.

As promised, I`m joined now by phone, by Gerry Cohen, a former special counsel for the North Carolina general assembly and an expert on election law, Jason Johnson will join me in a moment.

But let me start with you, Gerry Cohen. What is going on in North Carolina? What is new in light of this action by the legislature?

GERRY COHEN, FORMER SPECIAL COUNSEL, NORTH CAROLINA GENERAL ASSEMBLY (via phone): Well, it`s a whole labyrinth that runs back two years when the legislature tried to strip powers from incoming Democratic Governor Roy Cooper. He won two or three times in the state Supreme Court. And that was being resolved today with a new structure that restored powers to the governor effective January 31.

We had an ongoing investigation that a three-judge court, state court had been supervising, and extending its length repeatedly. And today, about 15 minutes after the legislature adjourned, it decided it wasn`t extending its stay any longer, and the current state board of elections will expire tomorrow at noon, which may leave a 34-day hiatus while we try to resolve everything.

MELBER: Which then in plain English means what? A month goes by and then eventually it`s most likely the House Democrats in Washington will have the final say?

COHEN: Well, there will be 34 days without -- potentially without a state board of elections, thus the January 11 hearing might not happen. It might leave the house to conduct its own investigation next week and not seat anyone.

But there`s a lot of research going on about other laws that might let the governor appoint the board under like an 1869 Statute that deals with situations where there`s offices and no provision for their appointment. So people were busy scratching their heads today, but everything was -- from this court order, 15 minutes after adjournment of the legislature for the year, took everyone by total surprise.

MELBER: I think our viewers are pretty familiar with some of the battles that have been waged in other states where there have been these so-called power grabs, Wisconsin, et cetera. Is this, in your view as an -- the analysis that you`ve done, is this a similar power grab where basically you have otherwise duly authorized body dissolved because the legislature doesn`t like what they were up to?

COHEN: Well, this is -- you know, the 2016 action right after the election was very similar to what went on in Wisconsin and Michigan. This year, but the difference here, and I hate to cast it in a partisan tent, but our state Supreme Court was four to three Democratic as a result of the 2016 election, a reversal.

And now, starting next Wednesday, will be five to two Democratic because the Democrats have been carrying statewide elections. So our court struck down those power grabs two or three times in state court over the last two years. So it`s put this back in balance.

MELBER: But I mean, I guess what I`m asking you is, is there any good reason for the elections board to be, as you put it, on a month hiatus or eliminated?

COHEN: No, the court complained. The three-judge court order complained that the state board, by delaying its hearing until January 11 from the previous December 28 was delaying any certification or resolution of the 9th district election.

But by putting in a 34-day hiatus, it`s delaying it even more unless the U.S. House steps in perhaps on Wednesday and takes over the investigation.

MELBER: Gerry Cohen has been all over this. And as you said, folks are scratching their heads who studied this for a living in North Carolina, let alone the rest of us we`re wondering if it`s going to affect the actual balance of the power in the House as well as, of course, the larger issues, whether these votes are being properly counted.

You`ve been a great help to us tonight. So thank you, Gerry.

I want to bring back in as promised Jason Johnson. You and I have the easy part because Gerry did the hard part and it is certainly complex. But at bottom, what do you see happening here? And if it does look like a kind of a standstill with a lot of recriminating, you know, fights back and forth inside the state, what do you see Pelosi and the House Democrats doing?

JOHNSON: Ari, this is the stuff that I love. My doctorate is out of Capitol Hill. So I was like I was steeped in North Carolina politics for my entire process.

What this basically boils down to is this. There are two things that can happen. Either we wait 34 days, Governor Cooper of North Carolina puts a brand new elections committee together, they call for a new election. And you end up probably with McReady, the Democrat ends up winning, he ends up getting seated in the Congress sometime over the summer. That could happen if people are willing to wait that long.

Or Nancy Pelosi next Wednesday when she gets in office, if this is something that she cares about on her agenda could say, "Look, we have reason to believe that this was a fraudulent election. We will not Seat anybody that you have from North Carolina`s 9th district unless we get to conduct an investigation as the House and then we may suggest that you have to have another election."

So one way or another, I think we`re going to have another election. It could come from Congress or it could end up coming from the governor of North Carolina.

MELBER: Yes. And it`s a fascinating one given that it is a one outstanding seat out there.

Jason Johnson, thanks for riding along tonight.

And tonight`s last word is next.

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MELBER: We`ll have to show you something pretty unusual here in New York. La Guardia Airport right now is only operating on a partial basis because of a transformer explosion at a power plant in Queens, which lit up the sky an eerie and bright blue tonight.

People are talking about what you see right here, a New York City based energy company Con Ed saying that basically what happened here that create this spectacle was a couple of transformers tripped off line sparking a fire, and that explosion lit the sky basically so brightly that it kind of looks, as you can see, like it`s daytime, or at least a sort of a blue daytime in several neighborhoods like Astoria and Woodside near Queens.

Now, smoker roast in the source of the blue light, visible from as far away as Manhattan. And get this. The New York Police Department officially saying, not only were there no injuries, but they add, with a tweet that contrary to some people`s fears.

END