Senate to vote soon on tax cut bill Transcript 12/18/17 The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell

Chris Van Hollen, David Sirota, Gene Sperling, Neera Tanden, Daniel Dale

Date: December 19, 2017
Guest: Chris Van Hollen, David Sirota, Gene Sperling, Neera Tanden, Daniel Dale


And when I was sitting here taking my notes and I heard “hasn`t been seen
since”, I thought whoa, this is the Hollywood version of this.

RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC HOST, TRMS: Well, you know, heading into this
testimony today, a bunch of Republicans, Trey Gowdy in particular had said,
oh, I don`t expect McCabe to be testifying because I don`t think he`ll
still be working for the FBI by then.

Today, he was asked about McCabe`s forthcoming testimony. He said well,
it`s not 2:00 yet. Are you sure he still works for the FBI?

As far as we know, Andrew McCabe still works for the FBI and he has now
been behind doors with those guys for more than eight hours. So, we`ll

O`DONNELL: That is going to be – if we get any of the leaks about that,
that`s going to be among the most fascinating leaks.

MADDOW: I hope they`ve all got Gatorade and power bars.

O`DONNELL: We will see.

MADDOW: Thank you, Lawrence.

O`DONNELL: Thank you, Rachel.

Well, the biggest danger, and there are many dangers. But every day, the
biggest danger of the Trump presidency is that we are always just a Trump
whim away from nuclear war with North Korea. A nuclear exchange cannot be
undone. What is happening tonight in the United States Senate can be
undone, and it will be undone by the next Democratic president and
Democratic Congress.

And so, it is not the worst thing that is happening in the Trump world.
The Democrats will repair the damage to tax law that is being done tonight.
And it is damage unlike anything we have ever seen before.

As many of you know, I used to have a hand in writing tax legislation in
the Senate when I was chief of staff of the Senate Finance Committee. So I
know the history of big corporate special interests in tax legislation.
And it is not a pretty history. And it is a bipartisan history for decades
when Democrats from Texas and Louisiana controlled the Senate Finance

The oil and gas industry had easy access to plead their cases, but there
was still senators from northern states who were there and ready to
withhold their votes when oil and oil state Democrats tried to make the tax
code too embarrassingly generous to their states` industrial giants. And
you could embarrass the senator in those days by saying he was pushing a
provision for special interests.

When my boss became chairman of the Senate Finance Committee, New York`s
senior Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan, everything changed for the oil and
gas industry very suddenly in the Finance Committee, and they knew it. But
as a New York senator, Senator Moynihan, represented Wall Street, and he
represented the biggest concentration of high value commercial real estate
in the country, New York City.

The exposure to corrupt influences of a New York senator in control of tax
legislation in the Senate could not be greater. And there was never the
slightest accusation made by anyone that Chairman Moynihan was in service
to Goldman Sachs or any other Wall Street firm, all of whom were
constituents of his, or any of the huge commercial New York real estate
interests and the big New York real estate families, all of whom were
constituents of his. And one day, we were considering a tax provision that
would affect commercial real estate.

Our chief tax counsel reviewed the policy issues, and it was a close call.
You can make an argument for it in favor of it. You can make an argument
against it.

I couldn`t tell if Senator Moynihan was leaning one way or the other when
toward the end of our chat, our tax counsel mentioned that this tax
provision would do Lew Rudin a lot of good. Lew Rudin was one of the
biggest commercial real estate owners in New York City and a friend of
Senator Moynihan for four decades, and a reliable contributor to Moynihan
campaigns and Democratic Party campaigns. The senator and I were not
surprised to discover that Lew Rudin had a big interest in this
legislation, but had never called either one of us about it.

Years later, when I read Lew Rudin`s obituary, “The New York Times” quoted
Lew Rudin as saying: The secret of my relationship with the political world
is I never asked them for anything.

And as far as I know, that was true. And so, there was Senator Moynihan,
considering what to do about a tax provision that would help a very rich
friend of his get richer, and perhaps or perhaps not be good for the
economy of New York City. Senator Moynihan didn`t say a word about the
merits of the case. Without looking up, he just said Lew Rudin has given
me too much money for me to vote for this.

Senator Moynihan wasn`t going to run the risk that someone would be able to
say he voted for a tax break for his friend Lew Rudin. So, he voted
against it. He voted against what Lew Rudin wanted because he voted for
his campaigning. He voted against it because of the possible, just the
possible appearance of Senator Moynihan being in service to a special

And in this case, it was a special interest who didn`t even mention it to
Senator Moynihan because Lew Rudin knew exactly what his favorite senator`s
reaction would have been. Senator Moynihan would have told Lew Rudin
personally, sorry, I can`t vote for it because you have given me too much

And after Senator Moynihan voted against that provision, Lew Rudin
continued to contribute to Pat Moynihan`s campaigns because Pat Moynihan
was the kind of senator that Lew Rudin the citizen, the citizen of New York
City, the citizen of New York state, the citizen of the United States of
America wanted to have in the United States Senate.

And so, yes, America once had big business owners, including big New York
real estate moguls who weren`t always out for themselves. And yes, America
had United States senators who could be embarrassed by doing the bidding of
special interests. And we still have some senators like that. We still
have senators who would react the way Pat Moynihan did. But none of them
are in the Republican Party.

What you are seeing in the United States Senate on the Republican side of
the aisle with this tax legislation is the ugliest display of pigs at the
trough that I have ever seen in Congress. And I mean ever. What`s
happening is best exemplified by what has become known as the Corker
kickback. Thanks to the extraordinary reporting of David Sirota who
discovered and exposed the provision slipped into the tax bill that
personally benefits real estate investors and commercial real estate owners
like Bob Corker and Donald Trump.

David Sirota will join us in a moment.

But first, here is Bob Corker earlier today on CNN where he was pressed
repeatedly by Wolf Blitzer on the question of exactly how much money that
tax provision is worth to him. And because the bill is now written in
legislative language, Bob Corker`s accountant could have already read it
and given him an exact figure of how much of that provision is worth to him
next year on his tax returns.

He could know that. That`s something Bob Corker could already know, and
might know already. But he repeatedly refused to answer that very simple
question, how much is this worth to you.

Here is the last thing that Bob Corker said about it after Wolf Blitzer`s
repeated attempts to get a real answer.


SEN. BOB CORKER (R), TENNESSEE: Let me just put it this way, Wolf. My
salary each year goes to charity. And it will take many, many, many years
for this little nominal thing to even account for one year`s worth of
salary. This has no impact on me that matters. It is absolutely nominal,
based on what – based on a preliminary look. And we`re not even sure that
it has that nominal impact.

So for somebody to say this has something that has big impact on me is a
total stretch. You know, it just does not.


O`DONNELL: And that is the face of shame tonight in the United States
Senate. Bob Corker has no shame about standing up there and voting for a
provision that benefits him. And he claims that he had nothing to do with
that provision getting in the legislation, and that does not matter. It is
in it.

And now, the question – the question of decency and honor turns on, are
you going to vote for that provision that benefits you? And nothing has
changed in this bill on the issue that Bob Corker cares about the most,
according to him, which is the deficit. This bill explodes the deficit.
And Bob Corker said he would never vote for a bill that would increase the
deficit by one penny.

This bill increases the deficit by a trillion and a half dollars. Nothing
has changed. But Bob Corker is not afraid of the appearance of

David Sirota has now identified 13 Republican senators who will benefit
from this provision. David Sirota has also identified other provisions in
the bill that will benefit other Republican senators directly, senators all
of whom are voting for bill. And we will get into those provisions in a

But first, joining us now is Democratic Senator Chris Van Hollen of
Maryland. He is a member of the Budget Committee and chairman of the
Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee.

Senator Van Hollen, I`m simply looking at this. I`ve never seen anything
like it. I`ve never seen this kind of personal gain, this personal plunder
by senators themselves.

But what I`m not hearing on the Senate floor, and correct me if this has
happened. But I`m not hearing people talk about the Corker kickback, not
using that language. That politeness of the Senate in which the tradition
is you never specifically go after another senator that way.

Is this an instance in which that should change?

SEN. CHRIS VAN HOLLEN (D), MARYLAND: Well, Lawrence, you`re absolutely
right. This is a scandalous piece of legislation. It`s probably the
biggest legislative heist in American history. And I have spoken out about
this provision that popped up during the conference committee.

And I think every member who is voting for this bill should tell his and
her constituents exactly how it`s going to benefit them personally. We
know this is going to benefit Donald Trump even before that real estate
provision was put in there. Now, it`s going benefit him even more.

But I think when people go back to their constituents, many of them who are
going to see tax increases, middle class families in this country are going
to see tax increases, their senators should tell them what`s in this tax
bill for them.

O`DONNELL: And, Senator, as a former member of the House, and I know
you`ve been in Conference Committee, I don`t want to get into too much
detail for the audience on this. But when a senator says this provision
was put in the conference report by the House, the reason the House puts
things in a conference report is to try to get senators to vote for it.
It`s to try to attract senators to vote for this new product, because the
House already got the house members to vote for it. So any of the changes
they`re making from the House are being made specifically to attract Bob

VAN HOLLEN: Look, there are lots of provision, Lawrence, as you said, that
are not in the Senate bill, that are now put in the Senate bill. We also
know that this bill is going to give millionaires a big tax break. On
average, a millionaire is going to get over $50,000 a year in tax breaks.

There are a lot of millionaires in the United States Senate who are going
to be giving themselves a tax break on this bill. At the same time, you`re
going to be seeing millions of folks in the middle class paying more. So,
you`re going to have millions of folks in the middle class paying more so
that some of these senators can pay less.

I really think this is a moment where the public already understands what`s
in this bill. And unlike what Paul Ryan said today, which is when they see
the results, they`re going to like it more, the more they see the results,
the more they`re going to hate this piece of legislation.

I`ve been focusing on another fact as well, which is that 35 percent of the
stockholders in our corporations are foreign owners of stock. And that
means in the year 2019, $48 billion in 2019 alone is going to be
transferred to foreign stockholders. So, out of the pockets of millions of
middle class taxpayers, into the pockets of foreign stockholders, that is
not America first. And that is a total betrayal of all that populist
rhetoric that Donald Trump gave people in the last election.

I think the public is going to be really furious when they figure this one
out. And they already are.

O`DONNELL: And, Senator, there are some other very rich senators on the
Senate floor who can benefit enormously from this bill, including the real
estate provisions who are voting against it. And every rich senator who
can benefit from this bill, who is voting against it is a Democrat. That
is the difference, between the Democrats and Republicans on this.

VAN HOLLEN: Well, that`s right. And that`s why I say that those folks who
are voting for this piece of legislation have an obligation to tell the
public what exactly in it for them, because the public should have some
confidence that the vote of members of Congress is in the public interest
and not in their personal-private interests.

We already know Donald Trump refuses to disclose his own tax returns
because he doesn`t want the public to know that he is going to get a huge
windfall from this. And senators should have that kind of obligation to
tell their public, tell their constituents, again, what`s in it for them
when you`ve got a bill that millions of middle class folks are going to be
paying more. And where, by the way, the tax cuts for corporations are
large and permanent. And to the extent that folks in the middle are
getting some tax cuts, they`re relatively small and temporary.

So, this is a scandalous piece of legislation. And I`m glad the public has
already caught on a lot. But we need the finish telling them the story.
For example, we had Republican senators on the floor saying that they`re
going to get a $4,000 increase in their wages from this trickle down
corporate tax cut. Six months from now, let`s all go ask everybody in
America whether they got their $4,000 pay raise they were promised. You
and I know it`s not going to be there.

O`DONNELL: Senator Chris Van Hollen, thank you very much for joining us on
this important night. I really appreciate.

VAN HOLLEN: Thank you.

O`DONNELL: We`re joined now by Gene Sperling, former director of the
National Economic Council for Presidents Obama and Clinton, also joining
us, David Sirota, senior editor for investigations at “The International
Business Times”.

And, David Sirota, thank you very much for doing the digging on this tax
bill for all of us. I know how hard it is to isolate these provisions,
interpret them, figure out who they affect. And your reaction tonight and
what you`ve heard Bob Corker say in defense of him voting for what now been
called the Corker kickback.

his explanation doesn`t make much sense because he hasn`t really explained
why he was voting against the bill that on the grounds of the deficit, and
now is voting for a bill that would increase the deficit by $1.5 trillion.

The fact pattern that we know is very clear. Bob Corker voted against a
bill, a Senate bill that didn`t include a special provision that helps the
real estate industry of which Bob Corker has substantial investments. He
did not vote for a bill that included restrictions on how much of a tax
benefit he, Bob Corker, could get. Then, a special provision was put into
the bill in the conference committee, dropped into that bill, crafted by
Orrin Hatch, which gives most of its benefits, the primary beneficiary of
that are real estate holdings. Then, Bob Corker suddenly after that
provision is put in the bill, suddenly Bob Corker is voting for the final

Did that motive Bob Corker? We can`t get into Bob Corker`s head. But what
we do know is the fact pattern I just laid out.

And we also know there are 13 Republican senators who also have those kinds
of investments that will benefit. And I think what this shows is that we
need more reporting in this country where we actually contextualize what
people are voting on, what bills are being voted on, both parties big, the
way, what they are voting on, what their financials are, who their campaign
donors are, and how those campaign donors and how those lawmakers and their
personal finances benefit from public policy that is spending the public`s

O`DONNELL: And, Gene Sperling, David Sirota has found other provisions,
corporate provisions that benefit other members of the Republican Senate
who are voting for this. I`ve never seen this kind of thing happening so
openly, so wantonly on the Senate floor.

Lawrence, let`s just remember, I mean, this is part of the DNA of this
entire tax bill. We`re a country right now where Americans are struggling.
People are worried about the hollowing out of the middle class.

Even when the economy is getting stronger, they`re worried about basic
financial economic security. And here a political party controls the whole
government and has a chance to try to address middle income families. And
what do they do? They have a tax cut.

You know, Senator Van Hollen was saying gives more money to foreign
investors than to the middle class of the 30 states Donald Trump won. It
goes to estates making over $11 million.

There are a lot of facts out there. I`ll give you just one. In the final
year of this bill, 60 percent of the tax cut goes to the 1 out of a
thousand people who makes over $5 million. That means in the last year of
their tax plan, more money goes to people making over $5 million than the
99.9 percent of the rest of us combined. That`s part of the DNA.

And then the process – I don`t want to bore on process. But I think the
reason why David`s reporting was so important is that Donald Trump came in
saying he was going to drain the swamp. I mean, this is all swamp all the
time. If you were trying to find out what was going on in this bill, you
wanted to know, did you know a lobbyist? Because this is being run through

So, it`s not just what got added at the end. The provisions – I`ve
written about this. The provisions for major corporations are actually
going to encourage more profit shifting overseas, more job shifting
overseas because that was built in at the beginning there is no hearings.
Those are the people they`re working on.

There is a reason why your poll today, the NBC poll said 63 percent of
Americans think this is for corporations and the wealthy, and 7 percent
think it`s for the middle class. Americans are understanding already what
is in this bill and what motivated it.

O`DONNELL: Gene Sperling, thank you for joining us tonight.

And, David Sirota, thank you for joining us tonight. Thank you for your
extraordinary reporting. It has really helped me understand what`s in this
legislation, more than any other reporting I`ve seen. Thank you very much.

SIROTA: Thank you.

O`DONNELL: Coming up, it is at times like this that you would really like
to get a look at the president`s tax return. But the White House continued
to lie about the president`s tax returns today.

And President Trump has the worst lawyers who have ever worked for a
president both inside and outside the White House and in his criminal
defense team. And they are having a meeting with some of the best lawyers
in Washington this week, the special prosecutor`s team.


O`DONNELL: Here`s the worst liar in the history of the American presidency
talking about how the giant Christmas present, the giant tax cuts is good
for everyone in America except him.


fortune, this thing. Believe me. Believe. This is not good for me. Me,
it`s not.

I have some very wealthy friends. Not so happy with me. But that`s OK.

You know, I keep hearing Schumer. This is for the wealthy. Well, if it
is, my friends don`t know about it.


O`DONNELL: Believe me. Believe me.

Donald Trump`s accountant sure knows it. Donald Trump`s accountant surely
approves of the provisions favoring commercial real estate. And Donald
Trump`s friends on Wall Street know about it. They know that Donald Trump
broke his promise to end the carried interest provision that allows Wall
Street investment bankers to pay a lower income tax rate on hundreds of
millions of dollars of income than their assistants pay on their salaries.

It is the policy of this program not to allow the White House press
secretary to spew her propagandistic lies in video clips. We do allow the
president to lie in video on this program and then discuss those guys. But
he is the president of the United States. And the words of the president
always matter, even though Donald Trump doesn`t seem to understand that.

But the president`s daily backup liar is an entirely different matter. So,
here is video of her today lying about why the president has not released
his tax returns. She once again told the lie that the president`s taxes
are under audit and therefore cannot be released until the audit is

But as viewers of this program have known for years, an audit does not
prohibit you from releasing your tax returns. And every president`s tax
return is automatically audited every year. And every president`s tax
return is released while the president is being audited until Donald Trump.

And, of course, that history of presidential audits of tax returns while
the tax returns are being released proved that Donald Trump and his
supporting cast of liars are lying about his tax returns today. The White
House press secretary actually extended her lying to the point of saying
that the tax legislation might actually cost Donald Trump some money. But
she has never seen a Trump tax return, and obviously has no idea what she
is talking about.

So, it would be a disservice to you, for me, to burden you with the actual
sound of her lying. But it should come as no surprise that the
presidential campaign that was run on the big lie that Donald Trump`s tax
returns were under audit and therefore could not be released has now
allowed that big lie to take up residence in the White House. The first
White House in the modern era that has not released the president`s tax

Joining us now, Daniel Dale, Washington correspondent for “The Toronto
Star”, and Neera Tanden, the president for the Center for American

And, Neera, there are so many reasons why presidents release their tax
returns, presidential candidates release their tax returns. And today is
the prime example. We want to know what your personal interest is in
legislation like this. And that`s something America is never going to know
when it comes to Donald Trump.

fact of the matter is what we are seeing in the Congress today is a public
policy that was written by the Trump administration and lobbyists. And it
is benefitting the people who are voting for it. It is the worst venal
graft I`ve seen in public policy in my entire career.

I`ve never seen people so unashamedly basically enrich themselves at the
expense of the middle class and working class Americans, people – everyday
Americans who send them to Washington. They`ve basically constructed a
bill to make sure that they get money at the expense of the people who sent
them to Washington. And Donald Trump is effectively hiding what his
benefit is from this – as you pointed out, lie he has now told for years.

And I think maybe one of the reasons why he told this lie is because he
knew he`d be in this situation where he`d go into the presidency or suspect
it might happen where he go into the presidency, pass a major bill that he
profits from. His family profits from. His friends profit from. The
senators profit from. But we don`t profit from at all.

O`DONNELL: And, Daniel Dale, what we`re seeing is the most open looting
that I`ve ever seen. It`s just become a free-for-all. And it seems to be
when everyone is doing it, the Republican feeling must be when everyone is
doing it, none of us can really be blamed for it. That seems to be the
Corker approach, Ted Cruz who benefits from provisions in this tax bill.
And they all know the biggest winner of all of them in Washington is Donald

And so, under the incredible corrupt auspices of the Trump White House,
they are all taking their personal piece of this.

they`ve decided with this bill they decided with the health bill as well
that if they do things quickly, they can just do them without consequence
to them. I don`t know if that`s correct. I mean, this is a massively
unpopular bill, like their Obamacare replacement plans were.

You know, it`s very much underwater. The public is angry about this.
We`ve had protests around the country.

And so, we do have provisions that benefit Trump certainly, and certainly
members of the Senate and members of the House. And the calculation seems
to be that these provisions are worth the possible consequences, or that
they can convince the public over time that these consequences were – that
the bill was beneficial for members of the public, rather than for members
of the House and Senate.

And I don`t think Democrats agree, and I don`t think a lot of political
analysts agree. I think it`s clear that this bill could very well be much
more of a political liability to them than a political benefit.

O`DONNELL: Neera, I have seen tax legislation rushed in the past. Once it
gets into the legislative process – not at the hearing stage, when people
are examining it, examining the issues in hearings in the Ways and Means
Committee and the Finance Committee.

But once you get into the committee actually voting and moving on the
floor, I`ve seen them move fast in the past for one reason. And that was to
stay ahead of the lobbyists.

They would move fast because they had provisions in there that they knew
the corporate lobbyists would not like, closing of certain loopholes that
corporate lobbyists would not like. And the reason they were rushing it was
so that the corporate lobbyists would not then get their claws into it.
This is the opposite. This is rushing it so that the bad stuff will
survive. And not we`re rushing it so that the good stuff will survive,
which is what I used to see.

NEERA TANDEN, MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR: This bill is getting worse and worse.
Let`s just be clear. At this point, 83 percent of the benefits go to the
top 1 percent over the lifetime of the bill. It`s getting worse and worse.
It`s going more to corporations, more to the super rich at the expense of
the middle class. That`s maybe – they`re rushing it because they`re trying
to buy off more members with more provisions like the Corker kickback.

I think what`s really happening here, honestly, is Republicans have been
waiting for unified government control. And more importantly, Republican
donors who have invested hundreds of millions of dollars into Republican
campaign coffers year in and year out are finally getting their return on

Barack Obama vetoed their plans in the past. Now they have the moment where
all that investment is being paid back to them with a massive tax cut. This
is going to be a massive tax cut for everyone who is giving money to the
Republican Party. All their rich donors and it is a payoff.

That is what it is, plain and simple. The Senators themselves say are going
to get enriched and then their donors are going to get enriched. That`s the
only explanation for coming up with a plan that isn`t going to create any
jobs, is going to send jobs overseas. It hurts the very people who voted
for Trump in the first place.

O`DONNELL: Daniel Dale, quickly what`s going on in the Whitehouse Press
Briefing room with your colleagues and their attempts to make it even
worthwhile to attend those press briefings? I rarely see a question asked
that is going to have any impact at all. And certainly there is never an
answer that is given that is worth taking note of.

DANIEL DALE, MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR: Well, Lawrence, I`m loathe to be too
critical of them. They have a tough job with this administration. I often
wish that the questioning was more pointed, that there was more follow-up,
that there was more challenging of the obvious lies, you know, when Sarah
Sanders says something like Trump is not going to benefit from this tax

It`s going to cost him money. It`s abject nonsense. And when she says stuff
like that, people should just keep asking and asking and asking,
challenging and challenging, not moving on to other topics. Unfortunately,
the issue is there are dozens of reporters with dozens of different

Some of them from right wing outlets that don`t want to challenge sanders
at all. And so it`s hard to get team work going in that room, as you know.
But I do wish that the group as a whole was a bit tougher sometimes.

O`DONNELL: But I have to say Daniel even if they were, even if they
followed your direction, if you could mastermind the whole thing, I don`t
think it would make any difference. And I think she would just leave the
podium a little quicker than she does now.

And there would be absolutely no useful information that`s even worth
quoting in any of the answers no matter how they approach it. But they will
continue to do it. Daniel Dale and Neera Tanden, thank you both for joining
us, really appreciate it.

DALE: Thank you.

O`DONNELL: Coming up, Tonight`s episode of every vote counts. A Democrat
just won a crucial recount in Virginia by one vote. And that one vote
shifts the power in the state legislature. The winner of that one-vote
landslide in Virginia will join us.


O`DONNELL: President Trump has the worst lawyers that Washington has ever
seen. He has the worst criminal defense lawyers, one of whom claimed to be
the author of an incriminating Tweet that seemed to have been written by
Donald Trump himself some weeks ago. And inside the Whitehouse, President
Trump has the worst white house counsel since John Dean confessed to
committing crimes as the Whitehouse counsel to President Nixon. It is white
house counsel Don McGahn, who chose the most embarrassing nominee ever sent
to a senate confirmation hearing for a federal judgeship.


JOHN KENNEDY, UNITED STATES SENATOR: have you tried a jury trial?

have not.



KENNEDY: Criminal?




KENNEDY: State or federal court?

PETERSEN: I have not.


O`DONNELL: That was a Republican Senator questioning a Republican Nominee
to be a Federal Judge, a republican nominee chosen by Donald Trump`s
Whitehouse counsel Don McGahn. That nominee has since withdrawn his
candidacy for the Federal Judgeship.

And if you`re Donald Trump tonight, you should be asking yourself just how
bad are my lawyers. And you should have been asking yourself that for a
long time, especially for the lawyers who have told President Trump that
the Special Prosecutor`s Investigation will be over soon. The President`s
lawyers have now scheduled a meeting with Special Prosecutor Robert
Mueller`s team.

And the Washington Post reports the President`s lawyers actually plan to
ask the Special Prosecutor`s team when they will end their investigation of
their client, Donald Trump. This is the single most childish question
Donald Trump`s lawyers could possibly ask. the Washington Post reports
Whitehouse Lawyers have told the President he could be exonerated as early
as the beginning of the year after previously reassuring him that he would
be cleared by Thanksgiving and Christmas.

One source predicted to the Washington Post that Trump would erupt at some
point in 2018 if the probe continued to drag on. Joining us now is Harry
Litman, former U.S. Attorney and Deputy Assistant Attorney General. He`s
now a law professor at UCLA. And Professor Litman, what is your expectation
from this big meeting with the lawyers next week?

HARRY LITMAN, MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR: I think it`s pretty straight forward. The
script has already been written. They will ask, as you said, is the probe
about done. are you going to wrap up soon. Mueller`s team will of course
say we can`t tell you. But no, it`s not going to wrap up soon as it isn`t.

But Lawrence, it might be that that`s the real purpose of the meeting, for
the President, because then he can emerge with a kind of talking point
returning to the witch-hunt mantra and say this has gone on too long. From
Mueller`s point of view, there is something else to do, though, potentially
in this meeting. And that is to begin to negotiate the terms of Trump`s
interview, which hasn`t happened yet, and has to before things can wrap up.
And from a prosecutor`s standpoint, a blowhard like Trump is a dream.

They will fillet him hen they get a chance. He said four different things
about every topic. Mr. President, when you told the American people that
you fired Flynn because he lied to Vice President Pence, that was a lie,
wasn`t it? Mr. President, when you told Lester Holt that you fired him
because of Russia, that was the truth, wasn`t it? Essentially making him
cop to obstruction.

That`s a big part still to come. And I think the Whitehouse will be
desperate to have that off. He will be, will Trump, one of the worst
witnesses of all time.

O`DONNELL: You know I just want to – these Whitehouse lawyers have the
most difficult President who has ever had to deal with Whitehouse Lawyers.
Let`s grant them that. and it may be that some of this babying of Donald
Trump, telling him don`t worry, it will be over by thanksgiving, don`t
worry, it will be over by Christmas, as silly as that sounds to us, history
might show some time that this was actually incredibly valuable. I began
the show with a reference to the greatest danger the Trump Presidency
possesses which is the possibility on a whim of having war with North

Some of those lawyers who are trying to humor him, calm him down, telling
him it will be over by thanksgiving, might have the same worry I do. And
they might be treating him in such a way as the Secretary of State tries to
treat him, you would think, the Secretary of State who call himself a moron
that this is what we have to do. And they might be telling their
grandchildren some day, these Whitehouse lawyers, we prevented a nuclear
exchange with North Korea by lying to the President about what to expect
from the special prosecutor.

LITMAN: Right, like trying to calm down a little baby. But they could be
strategic here. Another thing that he gains if he tries to shut things down
quickly, there is very strong indication that Jared Kushner is next to fall
in Mueller`s investigation. That`s another disaster for Trump. If Kushner
is indicted, either he goes to prison, his son-in-law, or he gives the
mother load of information against trump.

O`DONNELL: And on this network today, Chris Christie, a rival of Jared
Kushner`s to put it mildly, former federal prosecutor himself, saying of
course Jared Kushner should be investigated. We`re going have to leave it
there for tonight. Harry Litman, thank you very much for joining us

LITMAN: Thanks for having me.

O`DONNELL: Coming up, Election Day in Virginia was November 7th. But one
of the races was decided in a recount today. And the democrat won by one
vote. And that one vote changed the balance of power in the state
legislature. Talk about one vote counting. The winner of that one vote
landslide will join us next.


O`DONNELL: Time for tonight`s episode of every vote counts. You always
hear that when people are trying to get you to go out and vote. Every vote
counts. But in a country with millions of voter, it`s hard to feel that
every vote counts. And in the big states, it`s hard to feel that every vote
counts. But somewhere on your ballot, even in the big states, you can find
the spot where every vote counts, especially when you get down to the state

And tonight we have the astonishing story of one vote. One vote changing
the outcome of a legislative election in the State of Virginia. and that
one vote has changed the balance of power in the legislature. Election Day
in Virginia was November 7th. And Republican member of the House of
Delegates David Yancy came out ahead of his Democratic challenger by
exactly 10 votes. David Yancy got 11,601 vote and Democrat challenger
Shelly Simonds got 11,001.

Shelly Simonds requested a recount and today the recount became official.
David Yancy ended up with 11,607. And Democratic challenger Shelly Simonds
ended up with a one-vote margin, 11,608 votes, a one vote margin. 23,215
people cast their votes in that election.

And every single vote counted. if just one of Shelly Simonds voters stayed
home or got stuck in traffic and gave up then we`d have a different outcome
tonight. The Republicans have now lost their majority in the State House
of Delegates. And so that one vote has changed everything in the Virginia
House of Delegates.

The Republican leaders in the Virginia House of Delegates do not have the
power today that they had yesterday all thanks to that one vote. The power
of one elected Shelly Simonds and has changed everything in v house of
delegates. Shelly Simonds joins us next.


O`DONNELL: Virginia made history by electing the state`s first
transgender member of the State Legislature, Danica Rome, but the election
didn`t end on election night in Virginia on November 7th because some close
races that triggered a recount, one of those races was decided today by
exactly one vote and the winner of that election to the Virginia House of
delegates Shelly Simonds joins us now.

Thank you very much for joining us. That one vote has had enormous power.
You shifted the bans lance of power in the state legislature. So now as I
understand it is a tie Republicans and Democrats in the House? Shelly, can
you hear me?


O`DONNELL: OK. Shelly, is it now a tie between democrats and republicans
in the house?

SIMONDS: Yes. I believe we`re going to be going into a power-sharing

O`DONNELL: And so that means that the Republican leaders of the
legislature no longer have that power where they had yesterday, really,
where they could decide what that body was going to do.

SIMONDS: Yes, what a difference a day makes in Virginia.

O`DONNELL: And the – you had run before in 2015 and you were beaten by
about 2,000 votes at that time, but the vote count was much lower. Turnout
of about 14,000, this time your turnout was 23,000. It seems like turnout
made the difference.

SIMONDS: It really did make the difference. Last time I ran, it felt like
we had a matter and nobody showed up. This time, everybody came out to
vote, and we really rocked it. And it`s because of the voters and their
participation made all the difference.

O`DONNELL: And you didn`t even get started in this race until august,
which I find shockingly late, especially for what is a come-from-behind
win. Did it feel as you were getting close to Election Day just how close
this race was?

SIMONDS: Yes. I could definitely feel it on the ground. How close it was.
But, you know, we had a lot of groups from not even just Virginia, outside
Virginia, really involved this time. so it felt very different than 2015.

O`DONNELL: And when will we get the final makeup of the Virginia
Legislature? Are there more recounts under way now?

SIMONDS: yes. There are a few recounts happening. I – I know that we
have one tomorrow, and also there is the Joshua Cole recount which may
actually go to Federal Court.

O`DONNELL: We`ll be following it all. Shelly Simonds learned the lesson
of the power of one. You`re going to be the story we`re telling for a very
long time about how your vote counts. Shelly Simonds thank you very much
for joining us tonight, really appreciate it. And tonight`s “last word”
is next.


O`DONNELL: And tonight`s Last Word we have time for a couple of tweets
from you about the K.I.N.D. Fund, kids in need of desks, and your support
of what we`re doing here at where you can
contribute to the K.I.N.D. Fund.

Nea wrote Lawrence I bought two desks through K.I.N.D. Fund for my birthday
today. I dedicate this to my late dad and late uncle who did not have
desks growing up and yet they pursued and did so much for others in loving
memory and gratitude to them. Hope some lovely children are blessed as I

And then also we got this tweet from Half Life saying, Lawrence thanks for
bringing awareness to the girls of Malawi. It always touches my heart. I
tell myself I am going to give but I get busy and forget. This time I
didn`t and there`s her - the successful donation confirmation there that
you get online when you contribute.

And we do include a scholarship fund for girls to attend high school in
Malawi where public high school is not free. And girls have a – have half
the graduation rate that boys do. It`s a struggle for girls to stay in high
school in it Malawi. That`s all part of our program at the K.I.N.D. Fund
and that you can continue to help us at, really
appreciate everything you`ve done this year. That is tonight`s Last Word.

Up next, coverage of the republican tax vote in the Senate continues on
MSNBC on the 11th hour with Brian Williams. That starts now.


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