The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell, Transcript 7/24/2017 Trump considering replacing AG Sessions

Richard Painter, Josh Barro, Charlie Sykes, David Jolly, Neera Tanden

Date: July 24, 2017
Guest: Richard Painter, Josh Barro, Charlie Sykes, David Jolly, Neera

RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC: And change tea party way of election. And we don`t
know if that will result in anything in particular in the mid-term

We don`t know if it means anything at all, but when you see a statistical
jump like that, it`s probably going to mean something. That does it for us
tonight, we will see you again tomorrow, now it`s time for THE LAST WORD
with Lawrence O`Donnell, good evening, Lawrence.

LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, HOST, THE LAST WORD: Good evening, Rachel, as we`ve
become accustomed, “The Washington Post” broke a big story tonight.

Robert Costa is going to join us as our first guest –

MADDOW: Very good –

O`DONNELL: About this scoop about the president really is thinking about
getting rid of his attorney general, bringing in a new one.

And the interesting report tonight is how he would do that including the
possibility of a recess appointment –


O`DONNELL: During the August recess, which skips the entire confirmation
process and gives him an attorney general in a day.

MADDOW: Yes, and they`re admitting at the White House – White House
sources are admitting to “The Washington Post” now that the reason they
want to do that is basically so it could start the process of getting rid
of Bob Mueller.

So they are – I mean, a recess appointment isn`t the only way to do it,
it`s definitely the easiest way to do it. And boy does that put a
spotlight on whether or not the Senate is going into recess.

O`DONNELL: Yes, and of course the president has been saying up to now
anyway, they shouldn`t go into recess. They should stay here and work on
health care. He might have a completely different idea about recess now.

MADDOW: Yes, that`s exactly – and Mitch McConnell was willing to hold the
Senate so that it never technically went into recess the whole time
President Obama was president so he could never have a recess appointment.

He totally has the – not just the president, but the ability to do that
now in order to stop Donald Trump from doing something like this.

We shall see if Mitch McConnell has any appetite for doing that same thing.

O`DONNELL: Jeff Sessions will find out who his friends are –


O`DONNELL: Sooner rather than later. Starting to feel like –

MADDOW: That`s exactly right, my friend –

O`DONNELL: Thank you, Rachel.

MADDOW: Thanks, Lawrence.

O`DONNELL: Well, Jared Kushner spoke today, big news, we heard his voice,
that little voice in the White House driveway. But he didn`t say much, he
will have more to say tomorrow under oath.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Kushner spent two hours answering questions posed by
staffers on the Senate Intelligence Committee.

KUSHNER: I did not collude with Russia, nor do I know of anyone else in
the campaign who did so.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s still giving himself an out there, saying he
wasn`t aware of it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s a lot of behavior that was going on in that
White House that makes me think this is how people would behave if they
were guilty of colluding.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mr. President, should Jeff Sessions resign?


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Trump clearly feels aggrieved that Sessions recused

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If he`s very conservative about this Russia
investigation, maybe he has reason to be.

KUSHNER: Donald Trump had a better message and ran a smarter campaign.

they`re bringing crime, they`re rapists. He`s a war hero because he was
captured. I like people that weren`t captured.

A total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States.
Little Marco. Lying Ted. Low energy, Jeb Bush. You`re going to have such
great healthcare, and it`s going to be so easy.

You`re going to get tired of winning.

KUSHNER: And that is why he won.

TRUMP: When you`re a star, they let you do it. You can do anything.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Whatever you want.

TRUMP: Grab them by the –

KUSHNER: It is an honor to work with President Trump.


O`DONNELL: We, the people of the United States of America are now the
proud owners of the largest aircraft carrier in the world.

The president of the United States went to the commissioning of that
aircraft carrier this weekend. It is named the Gerald R. Ford.

President Trump said nothing in his remarks about how Gerald R. Ford became
president of the United States. Nothing about Gerald R. Ford never having
actually been elected president.

But simply rising to the office after Richard Nixon resigned rather than
face impeachment in the House of Representatives and a trial in the United
States Senate at which President Nixon would most assuredly have been found
guilty and removed from office on the basis of information discovered and
developed into a series of criminal cases by a special prosecutor.

That`s how Gerald Ford became president. It was not mentioned at the
naming, commissioning of that aircraft carrier in Gerald R. Ford`s name.

It was exactly the kind of special prosecutor that President Trump and his
family and campaign associates are facing now.

Donald Trump may be driven to distraction by the special prosecutor.
Donald Trump may be provoked into bursts of Twitter madness by the special

But no one in Trump world is taking the special prosecutor more seriously
than the president`s son-in-law and completely inexperienced campaign
adviser and now completely inexperienced White House adviser Jared Kushner.

We know Jared Kushner is taking it more seriously than the president
because Jared Kushner has better lawyers than the president.

Jared Kushner has Washington lawyer Abbe Lowell defending him. No one in
the Trump-Russia investigation has a better lawyer than Jared Kushner does.

Abbe Lowell has defended senators and presidential candidates like John
Edwards, powerful congressional committee Chairman like Dan Rostenkowski
and at least one speaker of the House.

And Abbe Lowell served as counsel to the Democrats on the House Judiciary
Committee when the committee considered and voted on articles of
impeachment against President Bill Clinton.

Alone among the defense lawyers in the Trump-Russia investigation, Abbe
Lowell has experience defending a president in an impeachment proceeding.

But he is not defending Donald Trump now. He is defending Donald Trump`s
son-in-law who met with the staff of the Senate Intelligence Committee
today to discuss his meetings with Russian government officials and
associates of the Russian government during the presidential campaign and
during the transition.

And in a written statement to the committee that was made public, Jared
Kushner said that he could not recall and could not find any records of two
phone calls with the Russian Ambassador Sergey Kislyak that the “Reuters”
news service reported occurred during the campaign.

He said he did not disclose a meeting he had with the Russian – with a
Russian lawyer and several other Russians arranged by Donald Trump Jr. on
June 9th of last year.

Jared Kushner said he had forgotten about that meeting when he was filling
out his application for a security clearance and did not include it as one
of the necessary disclosures in that form.

He did apparently did remember the meeting well enough though to tell the
committee today that, quote, “the meeting was a waste of our time” end

The e-mails sent to him to schedule the meeting were entitled “Russia-
Clinton, private and confidential”. In his written statement to the
committee today, Jared Kushner did not mention the title of those e-mails,
but he did say, “I did not read or record this e-mail exchange before it
was shown to me by my lawyers.”

Today, Jared Kushner described to the committee the December 1st meeting in
Trump Tower with the Russian ambassador that was also attended by former
General Michael Flynn who became President Trump`s first national security
adviser before being fired by the president for lying about his contacts
with Russian officials.

Jared Kushner told the committee staff today, “I did not request a secret
back channel. I did not suggest an ongoing secret form of communication
for then or for when the administration took office.”

“The Washington Post” has reported that, quote, “Jared Kushner and Russia`s
ambassador to Washington discussed the possibility of setting up a secret
and secure communications channel between Trump`s transition team and the
Kremlin using Russian diplomatic facilities in an apparent move to shield
their pre-inauguration discussions from monitoring according to U.S.
officials briefed on intelligence reports.”

On December 13th, Jared Kushner had a meeting with a Russian banker who he
was told had direct communication with Vladimir Putin. Kushner said that
the meeting with that banker Sergey Gorkov lasted 20 to 25 minutes.

And in his written statements today, Jared Kushner said “at no time was
there any discussion about my companies, business transactions, real estate
projects, loans, banking arrangements or any private business of any kind.

I did not know or have any contact with Mr. Gorkov before that meeting, and
I have had no reason to connect with him since.”

Jared Kushner`s explanation for why his security clearance application was
submitted without any disclosures of any meetings with any foreign
officials was, “my assistant did it.”

That`s it. That`s the whole explanation. He actually blamed his assistant
for sending in an incomplete version of the form.

But Jared Kushner`s signature is required not just on the last page of the
form, but on the last four pages of the form.

His signature is required – let`s see – right here and then, let`s see,
right here and then again up here, above the signature of the person who
examines this form.

And then on the final page right here again. Four times. You sign it four
times at the end of this form. In the private questioning of Jared Kushner
by the Senate Intelligence Committee staff today, he was no doubt asked
about those final four pages of this form in which his signature is
required four times.

And this is a form that says right above the very first place where you put
your name, “I have read the instructions and I understand that if I
withhold, misrepresent, or falsify information on this form, I am subject
to the penalties for inaccurate or false statement per U.S. criminal code
title 18, section 1001.”

Jared Kushner and Jared Kushner`s assistant had never been near a more
serious document in their lives than this thing.

The only thing close to this is Jared Kushner`s tax return, which only has
to be signed once. But it is also a federal government document that if
handled incorrectly can send you to jail.

Jared Kushner`s assistant now will have to testify about all of this.
Jared Kushner`s assistant will be asked, did you see those instructions on
the first page that warn against withholding information and explains that
that is a crime and that your boss, Jared, could go to jail if you get
anything wrong in this thing?

Jared Kushner`s assistant may then become the Rosemary Woods of this
investigation. Rosemary Woods was President Nixon`s assistant, whose desk
was right outside the Oval Office and who explained a crucial 18-minute gap
in President Nixon`s secret voice-recording system by saying that she
created that erasure of the tape when she was transcribing it, and there
she is demonstrating this, tried to answer the phone at the same time.

It was absolutely nothing credible in what Rosemary Woods said about that
at that time. Tomorrow, Jared Kushner will be under oath testifying to
some members of the House Intelligence Committee.

Joining us now, Jill Wine-Banks; former assistant Watergate special
prosecutor and an Msnbc contributor. Mieke Eoyang; former House
Intelligence Committee`s staff member and the vice president for National
Security Program at the Third Way.

And Neera Tanden; president and CEO of the Center for American Progress and
a former senior adviser to President Obama and Senator Hillary Clinton.

And Jill, I just want to go to you with that Rosemary Woods reference. Her
testimony about how that 18-minute gap occurred, how credible was that and
how difficult is it going to be for Jared Kushner`s assistant to explain
how this form got sent?

JILL WINE-BANKS, LAWYER: It was really interesting to me to hear blame the
assistant because it did remind me of how Nixon let Rosemary Woods take the
blame, threw her under the bus, and it was incredible, her testimony was
totally unbelievable when she physically demonstrated it.

It became the front page news of the day because you could see from her
position I wish I could demonstrate it for you now that it was just not
physically possible to do what she said, and I will be very interested in
seeing whatever Jared`s assistant has to say.

I would like to be able to question that person.

O`DONNELL: And he is going to be questioned. Mieke, this was a committee
staff, and I think a lot of people think, oh, it was just the committee

I think you and I know that the committee staff tends to be sharper and
more highly informed about the specifics of these kinds of things than the
senators because they`re thinking about nothing else.

This committee staff doesn`t have to worry about tax legislation or
healthcare legislation, and so this would be very close questioning today,
wouldn`t it?

would. And you have a whole team of staff who are focusing on this, who
have poured through all the documents, all the articles, put together a
very careful list of questions to ask, and then a transcriber who will keep
a record of everything that Jared Kushner said, which will be available to

O`DONNELL: And Neera, I wanted to go to you on something that the
president has thrown out there in what has become his wild tweeting of the
last – I don`t know, weekend through today.

He is saying in his tweets, “so why aren`t the committees and investigators
and of course, our beleaguered attorney general looking into crooked
Hillary`s crimes and Russia relations?”

And that may be one of the more loaded tweets with the beleaguered attorney
general. But for the moment, to the president`s question of why isn`t the
Justice Department investigating Hillary Clinton and Russia relations, what
would they find?

PROGRESS: I mean, they would find absolutely nothing. But I would say
that the FBI did investigate Hillary Clinton and the server and has stopped
that investigation.

It did investigate Donald Trump during the campaign, and that is the
investigation that continues today with a special prosecutor appointed
again by his Department of Justice, which I know is a thorn in his side and
one of the reasons why he`s thinking of firing his own attorney general.

Which just tells you where we are with this entire investigation. I would
just like to say one thing about the SF-86 and Jared Kushner`s ludicrous
explanation that – to blame it all on an assistant.

I mean, you just need to be clear that this form which I have filled out
multiple times is very clear that the person responsible for reporting it
out is the person it covers.

You can`t really just blame the assistant on this. He`s responsible, and
it`s very clear. Not telling people that you`ve met with Russian assets is
the kind of thing that is a violation of federal law.

It is the reason you have an SF-86. So our intelligence forces will know
that people in our White House have relationships with people who are
connected to people like Putin.

And the fact that he just forgot all of this, I just find is just – it`s
staggeringly unbelievable.

O`DONNELL: Neera, let`s just stay on that form for a second. When you
filled it out, did you have an assistant doing the typing?

Did you – is that a scenario that`s familiar to you that someone else is
doing the typing and eventually sending it in?

TANDEN: When I did – I did my SF-86 a few times, and I never – in
different jobs. I never had anyone else do it. The idea that you would
just like carry that out to somebody else, dole that out when it`s very
clearly states it is a crime not to be honest and forthcoming with the

And the information is really there to tell the government, tell our
security forces, like who has relationships with foreign intelligence or
foreigners or foreign countries.

That is the entire purpose of it. The idea that you would forget things
when that information could lead you to jail seems just ridiculous to me,
and nobody else I know in government has ever had that kind of just blanks.

O`DONNELL: And Mieke, this statement, the written statement that Jared
Kushner released today was designed to say everything positive that he
could possibly get into that statement today.

And you would think that if his assistant had sent in an unsigned form,
that Jared Kushner had gotten – not gotten around to signing it those four
times, that he would have included that.

He would have said, you know, he sent in the form prematurely, and the
proof of that is that it was never signed. So let`s for the moment just
assume that Jared Kushner did sign that form.

Can you conceive of signing that before it was completed?

EOYANG: So it`s a little bit difficult to picture signing it given the way
the form is structured. Now, people do turn in incomplete forms, they
forget some addresses.

They forget some things that need to be filled in later, it is fairly
common to have a back-and-forth on the SF-86 and mistake some things.

But given the scrutiny of this campaign and the jobs that they were taking
and the security concerns of the White House, it seems inconceivable that
you would forget to list all of the foreign contacts, especially as Neera
said, you want to make sure that our government is not unduly influenced by
foreign countries so that people are acting in the best interests of
Americans and not of foreign nations.

O`DONNELL: Jill, based on your reading of Jared Kushner`s public written
statement today, what would be some of the areas that you would want to
follow up on, on questioning?

WINE-BANKS: First, I want to say it was a very smoothly-written document.
You`ve already pointed out he clearly has a very good lawyer.

But as soon as you start to probe it, it falls apart. The explanations
that are offered seem blatantly ridiculous. The explanation for the back
channel is not credible to me.

The explanation for forgetting over 100 foreign contacts isn`t believable.
There are so many questions, as we`ve already said, you want to ask the
assistant who filled it out what`s wrong with it.

But there`s every other part of that question – of his statement needs to
be evaluated in depth. Every witness to those meetings needs to be talked

The most incredible to me is, I didn`t know what I was going to that
meeting for. I had no idea what it was about.

And when I got there, it was about adoptions, and so I just was bored and
wanted to leave. Again, he`s blaming the assistant.

He says, I wrote to my assistant to get me out of the meeting by calling
and saying, I had to leave. That`s something that can be checked.

I want to know whether he actually left the meeting, whether he sent such
an e-mail or text. There are so many questions, and almost everything when
you really probe it, even though it sounds credible when you first read it,
when you think about it, you want to tear your hair out and think, these
are just lies. They are not believable.

O`DONNELL: Jill Wine-Banks and Mieke Eoyang, thank you for joining us,
Neera Tanden, please stay with us. Coming up, new reports tonight that the
president is considering replacing the attorney general specifically in
order to end the Russia investigation.

Robert Costa, who has been reporting that story for “The Washington Post”
will join us, and we have just learned that Senator John McCain is
returning to the Senate tomorrow for the healthcare vote.

The latest on the healthcare vote is ahead.



TRUMP: As the scout law says, a scout is trustworthy, loyal. We could use
some more loyalty, I will tell you that.


O`DONNELL: And guess who wasn`t a scout? That`s right, Donald Trump. We
have breaking news tonight. “The Washington Post” reporting that President
Trump and his advisors are privately discussing the possibility of
replacing Attorney General Jeff Sessions.

“The Post” is also reporting that the president could install a new
attorney general as a recess appointment during the August recess. That
person would have the full powers of the attorney general until the end of
the year.

Joining us now by phone, Robert Costa, one of the reporters on tonight`s
new breaking news from “The Washington Post”. Robert, there`s also
contained in the report the notion that this is all in order to get a new
attorney general to fire the special prosecutor and simply end that

Does the White House and the president believe that that is possible?

ROBERT COSTA, WASHINGTON POST (via telephone): That`s important context,
Lawrence. As I`m told by my top sources around the president in the
Republican Party, the president continues to feel vulnerable on the Russia
probe because of the recusal by Attorney General Sessions.

And that feeling has prompted some of his closest confidants and associates
to start mulling the possibility of replacing the attorney general.

They do not have a clear-cut – clear-cut plan at this moment about who
that would be or what that would look like, whether there would be a recess
appointment or not. But the president continues to vent behind the scenes
when these discussions are ongoing.

O`DONNELL: Robert, is it your sense that this is a deliberate running this
idea up the flagpole as it were through “The Washington Post”, see what
Washington`s reaction is tomorrow, see what congressional Republicans`
reaction is this week?

COSTA: Yes, it`s part of an ongoing process that`s emanating from the
White House. You have it in terms of the president`s tweets.

He`s tweeting today about beleaguered Attorney General Jeff Sessions. He
made his comments last week to the “New York Times”, now people in the
president`s inner circle are telling “The Washington Post” that even though
they don`t have an option yet of a replacement, there is active talk of
replacing the attorney general because of the president`s frustration.

So we`d see this sentiment continuing to build in the Trump circle.

O`DONNELL: Robert Costa, thank you for joining us with this breaking news
report, really appreciate it.

COSTA: Thank you.

O`DONNELL: We`re joined now by Josh Barro; senior editor for “Business
Insider” and an Msnbc contributor. And Richard Painter, a professor of law
at the University of Minnesota who was chief ethics lawyer for President
George W. Bush.

Mr. Painter is the vice chair of the Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics
in Washington. And Josh the – so far, we`re not hearing a big rush of
Republicans coming forward, saying this is outrageous, he can`t do this.

JOSH BARRO, SENIOR EDITOR, BUSINESS INSIDER: Yes, well, you`ve seen some -
- I mean, Susan Collins has said that it would be unacceptable for him to
fire the special prosecutor.

I mean, I think, you know, one thing is that Republicans in the Senate are
very focused on the healthcare bill today.

But you know, I think – at this point the names that have been floated,
who he might replace him with, Rudy Giuliani and Ted Cruz, neither of those
makes a lot of sense.

I have trouble imagining that Ted –

O`DONNELL: Well, they agree that Rudy Giuliani –

BARRO: Right –

O`DONNELL: Because both said they don`t think it`s – they don`t want to
do it?

BARRO: Yes, I mean, if you fire Sessions after six months, why would any
other U.S. senator agree to take that –

O`DONNELL: Right –

BARRO: Job and then be at risk of being fired –

O`DONNELL: Right –

BARRO: Again. So what that says to me is that this is not an idea that
has gotten really very far off the launching pad yet.

Those are the sorts of names that they are talking about. I`m just a
little bit mystified that he`s so publicly focusing on Sessions right now.

He`s been grumbling about this for months. But really, you know, it`s Rod
Rosenstein; the deputy attorney general who appointed this special

And if Trump wanted the special prosecutor fired, then the ordinary way for
him to do that first, would be to instruct Rosenstein who appointed him and
who is in charge of this because of Sessions` recusal, instruct him to fire

And while he has complained a little bit about Rod Rosenstein, he really
seems to be focusing most of his ire on Sessions.

Which I find weird and it makes me suspect that there is something that has
happened between the president and Sessions that is not all the stuff that
we`ve seen publicly that we`ve known about for months.

Some other thing that he`s upset about. Yes, maybe, for example, maybe he
told Sessions he wants him to un-recuse and fire – and fire Mueller.

And I would imagine that Sessions would have said no if he was asked to do
that. That`s one conceivable reason he`d be so upset.

But weird that he`s so focused on Sessions when really this is Rosenstein`s

O`DONNELL: Richard Painter, one of the things the president is facing is
that in the statute enabling the special prosecutor, there is no provision
for the president to order the deputy attorney general to fire him.

That`s not an order that the deputy attorney general has to in any way
carry out. But the president could fire then the deputy attorney general
who doesn`t do it and keep having them go through some cycle.

That would be, at the moment, a kind of unknown. Or how many of them would
you have to fire to get to that spot?

But if you just get rid of the attorney general and during the August
recess, replace the attorney general with a new attorney general who is
already agreed to do this for you, that seems like a way for the president
to get it done.

tried that too. He had to go through three people until Robert Bork was
willing to fire Archie Cox.

But there was enormous backlash against that, and it ended up with another
special prosecutor Leon Jaworski being replaced and going on and doing the
job that Archie Cox was doing.

This is not going to work. This is a much more dangerous situation than
Watergate. We have a foreign power that`s conducted espionage inside the
United States.

President Trump has already fired the FBI director in connection with the
Russia investigation. He told the Russian ambassador that in the Oval
Office, and we have Kellyanne Conway and other White House staff attacking
Robert Mueller, really making lots of false statements about Robert Mueller
and his staff.

If the president orchestrates the firing of Robert Mueller, he has the
power to do it, but he does not have the right to do that.

The Congress is going to have to respond vigorously with its own
investigation, demanding the reappointment of another special counsel, a
special prosecutor, and if the Republican Party does not get its act
together on this – and I`ve been a Republican for 30 years, but I will say
that this will be the end of the Republican Party.

We cannot go down in history as the party that betrayed our country into
the hands of Russia simply in order to win an election and then cover up
the investigation through multiple firings of the FBI chief and now the
special prosecutor.

So I very much hope President Trump does not go down this road. It could
be catastrophic for our country and I hope that Congress will hold him

O`DONNELL: Well, it`s possible that Rush Limbaugh`s audience might. Trump
supporter telling Rush Limbaugh today this is anecdotal of course. But
telling Rush Limbaugh that this could be a very bad move, getting rid of
Jeff Sessions. let`s listen to this.


UNIDENTFIED MALE: You`re saying that trump would lose some luster in your
eyes if he gets rid of sessions. Regardless of who he replaces him with.
You think that would be a bad move.

RUSH LIMBAUGH, TALK SHOW HOST: Yes. That would lose some luster. But it`s
beginning to look more and more like he`s – you were saying it real well
earlier. when in charge, be in charge. I`m seeing in Trump – I thought I
saw a tough guy supposedly. I`m seeing a wimp beginning to show up, and
he`s beginning to bring in -

UNIDENTFIED MALE: Whoa, whoa, whoa. Let`s just not skate right by that.
You`re beginning to see a wimp show up? What do you mean?

LIMBAUGH: Well, you were talking about it earlier. If you`re in charge of
something, be in charge of it.

UNIDENTFIED MALE: Oh, you mean the bystander comments that I made?

LIMBAUGH: Go in and fire those people like you said early on. Get rid of
those imbeds up there. Go into that swamp and start doing some things, not
sitting around sending out tweets about it.


O`DONNELL: Josh, maybe Donald Trump should listen to RUSH LIMBAUGH
instead of watching Fox News.

JOSH BARRO, MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR: Well I mean the funny thing here you would
think that Trump supporters who cared about, you know, having an anti-
immigration policy or some of the other things that Jeff Sessions stands
for would be upset about his firing and it would be a signal - Nicki Couse
was saying this weekend. It would be a signal that the Trump
Administration was becoming all about protecting Donald Trump. And the
policy initiatives that Jeff Sessions has, whatever you think about them,
he was really out there on immigration restriction.

He`s trying to roll back some of the criminal justice reforms that other
Republicans have wanted to do, more aggressive in the drug war, more
aggressive in civil forfeitures, the police seizing assets from suspected
criminals. You know, all that stuff, those are Jeff Sessions` signature
things. If you get rid of him and replace him with someone whose signature
is protecting the President from prosecution, that`s useful too if you`re
Donald Trump or one of his relatives, but it`s not useful to you if you`re
one of his nationalist supporters who care about policy.

O`DONNELL: Yes. Jeff Sessions has been a right-wing conservative for much
longer than Donald Trump has been. And Rush Limbaugh`s audience knows
that. Richard Painter and Josh Barro thank you both for joining us tonight.
I really appreciate it.

BARRO: Thank you.

O`DONNELL: Coming up, President Trump is now attacking Congressional
Republicans for not defending him because in his copy of the constitution,
it is Congress`s duty to defend the President of the United States.



think many people are saying Bob Mueller is a person who is a biased
partisan. We have an investigation in the House, an investigation in the
Senate, and a Special Counsel which sort of depoliticizes this stuff and
gets it out of the political theater. What we`re not focused on doing is
spending all of our time on Russia, spending all of our time on this
intrigue. That`s not what we were elected to do.


O`DONNELL: That was Paul Ryan today. joining us now, former Republican
Congressman David Jolly from Florida and Charlie Sykes, Msnbc Political
Analyst. Charlie, you know Paul Ryan. What is he going to say if Donald
Trump does get Robert Mueller fired?

We just heard him say that I don`t think many people are saying Bob Mueller
is a person who is a biased partisan. There he is defending Bob Mueller.
But when the day comes, whenever Donald Trump does something Paul Ryan
doesn`t think he should do, Paul Ryan always seems to get in line.

CHARLIE SYKES, MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR: Yes, that`s the interesting question. So
there`s the question of what will he say, and what will he do because if
Donald Trump were to do that, he would really be provoking a constitutional
crisis. We need to understand this. there`s a real whiff of panic about
all this, you know, particularly as the reports indicate that the Special
Prosecutor is looking at the finances, money laundering, family business
deals, and there`s something about this that is leading Donald Trump to,
you know, begin pressing all of these buttons. You know so quite frankly,
I don`t know what Paul Ryan is going to do.

You know, he`s obviously been willing to make a lot of sacrifices in order
to get the health care through and tax reform through. So would this be the
bridge too far? I don`t know.

O`DONNELL: Yesterday the President Tweeted, it`s very sad that
Republicans, even some that were carried over the line on my back, do very
little to protect their President. Sorry, David Jolly. I couldn`t get
through it with a straight face as usual on Trump Tweets. How is something
like that received in the Republican cloak room in the House of

DAVID JOLLY, FMR. U.S. REPRESENTATIVE: Lawrence, I was one of those guys
who ended up under his feet come November of last year. Listen, let`s not
look past the fact that the American people today, a lot of the American
people are wondering if this President frankly is well, right?

He engaged in 72 hours of a tweet storm of hate and then gave a policy talk
to 12-year-olds today. And I think what we are seeing is his motivation is
not one of victory. It`s one of blame.

It is he has to have the enemy. Even when it comes to health care, major
initiatives, right? He does want a health care bill passed, but even if it
passes. He`ll do to the Senate what he did to the House, which is turn
around and call it a mean bill.

And so Republicans have not figured out on the hill how to deal with this
President. But it will quietly erode as long as he continues to push away
establishment Republicans like Spicer and Sessions and others.

O`DONNELL: And, Charlie, there`s always a question of does Donald Trump
understand what he`s even thinking about, meaning does he understand the
scale of this project that the Washington Post is reporting on tonight, the
project to fire Mueller by getting rid of an Attorney General, doing a
recess appointment of a new Attorney General, have a pre-wired firing that
that attorney general executes against the special prosecutor, and just
declares that whole investigation an end? We have a sense of how big an
explosion that would be based on our experience in these matters. But it`s
not clear that the President understands how big an event that would be.

SYKES: No. we continue to plumb the depths of this president`s historical
ignorance and his indifference to policy or the consequence of his
behavior. I mean think about where we`re at right now. He is asking the
Congress of the United States to move ahead and pass a toxically unpopular
and incredibly complicated piece of legislation at the moment when he is
about perhaps to trigger this constitutional crisis.

So you have to wonder, you know, the President talks about loyalty a lot
but David makes an outstanding point. Members of Congress know that at the
slightest hint of trouble, Donald Trump will abandon them, will throw them
under the bus because he doesn`t really care about the policy. He doesn`t
understand the policy and, you know, this presidency is all about Donald
Trump and they`re just along for the ride.

O`DONNELL: The very first Senator who endorsed Donald Trump for President
is now apparently Donald Trump`s enemy according to Donald Trump. And that
was a lot bigger deal, endorsing Donald Trump, than a Senator simply voting
or giving his party or his President a vote, one vote on a piece of

SYKES: It`s huge.

O`DONNELL: It`s an amazing situation. David, that model of Trump
turning on Jeff Sessions has to be, in everyone`s view in the house and the
Senate, as I could be next.

JOLLY: Right. It is. And understand, Lawrence, how he – and you know
this. how he got across the finish line, right? He has his base of 30 to 35
percent, and they`re not going anywhere. They are stronger when Trump`s
back is against the corner. But a lot of establishment Republicans held
their nose and went along with him in the last go-around.

So if you say that`s 15 percent, that`s the 15 percent that he is pushing
away right now and bringing in his Wall Street swamp crowd, if you will, to
protect him. But you can win one election by losing the popular vote. You
can`t lose two, and that`s what Trump doesn`t realize right now by pushing
away people like Sessions and others.

O`DONNELL: David Jolly and Charlie Sykes, thank you both for joining us
tonight, appreciate it.

JOLLY: Thank you.

O`DONNELL: Coming up, dramatic news tonight. John McCain will return to
the senate tomorrow to vote on the health care bill. But how will John
McCain vote now.


O`DONNELL: At 9:02 p.m. tonight, the dramatic news came that Senator John
McCain will return to the Senate tomorrow after his recent diagnosis of
brain cancer. There are reports tonight indicating that Senator McCain will
vote with Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell to proceed to debate on a
yet unknown piece of health care legislation that will repeal and maybe or
maybe not replace Obamacare. If Senator McCain does vote for whatever it is
Mitch McConnell tries to do tomorrow, it will be in direct contradiction to
Senator McCain last statement on the situation in the Senate. A week ago,
when Mitch McConnell`s latest health care bill collapsed in the Senate,
Senator McCain said, the Congress must now return to regular order, hold
hearings, receive input from members of both parties, and heed the
recommendations of our nation`s governors.

So that we can produce a bill that finally provides Americans with access
to quality and affordable health care. After that statement, to vote for
anything that Mitch McConnell brings to the Senate floor without hearings
and input from both parties and the governors is a violation of the
principles that senator McCain emphasized just a week ago. According to
the latest vote counts for all of the potential variations that Mitch
McConnell could bring to the senate floor tomorrow, there seemed to be
enough Republican votes against each of them to defeat each of them.

But what Mitch McConnell might, just might win tomorrow is just enough
Republican votes to allow debate on health care legislation to begin on the
Senate floor. But that would still leave any bill a long way from passage
and possibly enough Republican opponents to defeat whatever Mitch McConnell
actually brings up for a vote on final passage in the Senate.

So what will john McCain do? Is he really – is John McCain really flying
across the country right now in the midst of his own grave health crisis
with government-funded health care paying for every treatment he gets so
that he can vote to violate his own principles that he announced last week
about regular order in the Senate.

And allow the Majority Leader to begin debate without hearings on a bill to
take away health coverage for tens of millions of people? Would john McCain
really do that? That`s next.



their chance to keep their promise. Over and over again they said repeal
and replace, repeal and replace. But they can now keep their promise to
the American people, to the American people have waited long enough.
There`s been enough talk and no action. Now is the time for action.


O`DONNELL: Neera Tanden is back with us. She`s the President and CEO of
the Center for American progress and the former Senior Adviser to President
Obama and Hillary Clinton. Neera, we see who the President is going to
blame if his promise about how easy it was to repeal and replace Obamacare
turns out not to be true. He is of course going to blame the Senate

NEERA TANDEN, MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR: Absolutely. And you know he made a lot
of health care promise attention. One was he was going to lower are
premiums another one that no one was going to lose coverage. That it was a
great deal for everyone.

Each of those promises have been violated. I just need to say the Senate is
on the verge of voting for a bill, to proceed to a bill that no American
has actually seen the language of. A bill that would affect one sixth of
the economy and while Senators and have seen maybe some draft language and
we don`t know about that, the American people haven`t seen anything. It is
a process that makes the senate`s deliberation a sham. And the idea that –

O`DONNELL: Sorry. And Neera, Senator John McCain also has not seen
anything. There`s a presumption tonight among a lot of the reports that he
is coming back to Washington that he is coming back to a support the leader
Mitch McConnell which he does. But exactly a week ago Senator McCain said
regular order which you and I know means a process of minimum of six to
nine months to get any bill out hearings Democrats and Republicans
involved, the Governors involved, everything john McCain said we should be
doing now would – would be completely destroyed if he voted with Mitch
McConnell tomorrow.

TANDEN: Absolutely if he votes for the mission to proceed he has violated
his own words, not from years ago, from last week. This – he also talked
about how this bill shouldn`t hurt Arizona. And this bill does hurt
Arizona. And so you know there are a number of Senators who have still
expressed discomfort with in legislation.

They are Senators leading states who face massive amounts of coverage loss,
massive premium increases from this legislation. From what we think is in
the legislation. And so the reality here is that we have just a few hours
tomorrow to jam the phone, to call into Congress to call Senator Collins,
call Senator Murkowski.

Senator Capito, Senator Murkowski have both said that they have deep
concerns about in bill, that they don`t want to see people lose coverage.
They don`t want to see people hurt. Senator Capito just said last week she
didn`t come to Congress to hurt people.

There is no bill that they are considering that would not hurt people. So
that`s what`s at stake here. Whether millions – whether 20 million people
lose coverage or 30 million that`s what they`re debating.

O`DONNELL: Let`s listen to what Rush Limbaugh said about this today and
Donald Trump`s noninvolvement.


LIMBAUGH: The President`s the author of the art of the deal. Getting
things done, supreme negotiator. Why has he writing of this stuff as though
he is a bystander why is he writing of this stuff as he is a observer not
bystander. He was not elected to be a bystander.


O`DONNELL: But it seems like he is a bystander. Neera Tanden we`re out of
time. Sorry , we got to go to a break. Neera Tanden thank you for joining
us tonight, really appreciate it

TANDEN: Thanks for having me.

O`DONNELL: Tonight`s Last Word is next.


O`DONNELL: OK. For all of you observers who have been saying that the new
guy is smoother than the old guy. I don`t know what you are talking about.


I want to do everything I can to make her better at the podium. I think she
is phenomenal there now. But like every athlete training for the Olympics
every day we got to make ourselves incrementally better. The only thing I
ask Sarah. Sarah if you`re watching I`d love the hair and makeup person
that we had on Friday. So I`d like to continue to use the hair and makeup


O`DONNELL: Will he still be in the job by the time the Trump Whitehouse
has the first Christmas party? Well that`s the Last Word. The 11th Hour
with Brian Williams is next.


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