Show: THE LAST WORD WITH LAWRENCE O`DONNELL Date: June 20, 2017 Guest: Sam Stein
RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC HOST: It`s going to be a late one, that does it for us for now, we will be back here at midnight eastern time live with up-to-date election results as our coverage continues now with THE LAST WORD with Lawrence O`Donnell, good evening Lawrence.
LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, MSNBC HOST: Rachel, so it looks like the message of the night for Republicans in the House of Representatives is, if you won your race by less than 20 points, you are in serious trouble.
MADDOW: Yes, it`s -- I mean, you keep watching these swings, you know, and like in the Montana race, there was that big swing in the Kansas race, there was that big swing.
It appears like in South Carolina, that was that -- there was that big swing. We`ll see what it looks like tonight in Georgia. But you know, Democrats have to be, you know, satisfied with how much they`re moving the needle, but ultimately they`re not putting people on the board.
O`DONNELL: Yes, but when they`re looking at 2018, all of these districts are districts that they don`t have to win --
MADDOW: Right, that`s very true --
O`DONNELL: In order for them to win the House of Representatives. But they are now districts in which Republicans suddenly have to spend serious money to hang on --
MADDOW: That`s right --
O`DONNELL: And they -- Republicans never had to do that before.
MADDOW: That`s exactly right, and that`s part of why these people who were chosen for these Trump administration jobs, why they were available to be picked --
O`DONNELL: Yes --
MADDOW: Because their seats were seen as so safe, the Republican party wouldn`t have to spend anything in order to hold on to them. That certainly has been disproved.
O`DONNELL: Yes, maybe there`s no such thing as a safe seat in the Republican side anymore. Thank you, Rachel.
MADDOW: Thanks, Lawrence.
O`DONNELL: Well, that sixth congressional district in Georgia has not been represented by a Democrat since we had a Democratic president from Georgia.
Most of Georgia has embraced the Republican Party since Jimmy Carter was president, and the congressional election in this district in November, the Republican won by 24 points.
That`s the race that`s locked in this virtual tie right now. Twenty four points last time voters went to the polls there.
Polls showed that Democrat Jon Ossoff and Republican Karen Handel in a virtual tie coming into today`s election. The latest returns tonight show that with 80 percent of the vote counted, Karen Handel leads with 52.4 percent to Jon Ossoff`s 47.6 percent of the vote.
The special election comes as President Trump`s support among Republicans is falling according to a new "Cbs" poll today. In April, 83 percent of Republicans approved of President Trump, now 73 percent of Republicans approve of the president according to the "Cbs" poll.
Joining us now from Jon Ossoff`s headquarters in Atlanta is Garrett Haake; MSNBC correspondent. Gareth, what`s the feeling there?
GARRETT HAAKE, MSNBC CORRESPONDENT: Lawrence, the bottom just fell out in this room here. Another network just called this race for Ossoff`s Republican opponent.
And what little energy had been in the room a few minutes ago completely evaporated. It started to disappear about half an hour to 45 minutes ago when the votes from today started to come in and we saw Ossoff`s lead in the early votes start to slowly disappear.
About 30 minutes go, Ossoff`s fianc‚e came out and thanked the volunteers and staff, started talking about small victories like volunteers that got signed up, new voters here in the district.
Important stuff, sure, but not the kind of thing that was going to rally this crowd. Lawrence, I think we`ll have plenty of time for smarter people than me to debate and analyze what happened here.
But two, I think obvious takeaways so far. First, as fired up as Democrats were in this district, and I don`t know if you can get a sense of the room behind me and the scope of this, but I`ve not seen anything like this in a House race I have ever covered.
I mean, hundreds of people here, they`ve been dancing and drinking for hours, fired up about the House race.
Turns out the Republicans were just as fired up too, and the places she needed to win, Karen Handel`s voters showed up and they cast the ballots.
And that`s sort of the second thing that I think is going to be note-worthy about this is even having essentially more money than he can spend, probably about $25 million in total.
Jon Ossoff couldn`t buy an extra 10,000 or so Democratic voters in this very red district. The district that Tom Price won by more than 20.
So despite President Trump`s struggles, some of those conservatives are going to still be conservatives and if Democrats are going to make those big gains in 2018, they`re going to have to crack a code that they couldn`t quite crack here despite being with the Democrats I talked to pretty satisfied with their candidate and how they ran this race really right down to the very end.
O`DONNELL: Garrett Haake, thank you very much for joining us, really appreciate it. MSNBC`s Steve Kornacki is standing by at the board taking a deep dive into what we know about these votes counted so far. Steve?
STEVE KORNACKI, MSNBC POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I mean, look, I don`t think our networks called it, but frankly I can`t look at this and give you a scenario where Jon Ossoff wins we can show you.
With Karen Handel leading by five points here, we can show you how she has found herself in this position. There`s a couple of things that I would key in on.
Number one, it was the early vote. Now think about this, all the emphasis Democrats put on organizing on mobilizing all the attention, Democratic activists paid and the general advantage we`ve seen Democrats tend to have in early voting here and elsewhere.
Well, today in the early vote, Jon Ossoff did win the early vote, he won it by 1.4 percent. The early vote, the in-person early vote.
He wanted to be well north of 50 percent there, because in the same day- vote, the people actually turning out and voting today.
Looks like Karen Handel well over 55 percent of those and that`s the other key here, it`s right here. DeKalb County, this is the Republican part of the district, this is the core Republican part of the district.
Not much of an early vote there to speak of, but a very big same day vote overwhelmingly for Karen Handel. So Democrats did not get what they wanted out of the early vote.
The Republicans did better there than expected. And then when you got to the same day, boy, those Republicans in the Republican heart of the district, they were motivated.
And the bottom line, yes, you mentioned been a while since a Democrat won. Since 1992 is when this district was basically created as a House district.
But also, this is a district where Donald Trump only won by a single point, and that was the key for Democrats tonight.
Could they improve on what Hillary Clinton did in this district and what would that mean for other districts nationwide.
Well, you look where Ossoff is right now, he basically hasn`t improved on Hillary Clinton at all. This is pretty much where she landed last Fall --
O`DONNELL: Steve, let me interrupt you with Nbc`s call on this. Nbc is now projecting that Karen Handel will be the winner in this race when all the votes are counted. Steve?
KORNACKI: Yes -- no, again, that was -- this is one of those districts if you look for national implications here. Look, symbolism is probably the biggest thing here.
Republicans wanted to say, hey, we could defend this turf, Democrats wanted to say, hey, we got a win on the board.
But a big thing Democrats are looking at in 2018, we hear about these all the time, these districts where a Republican represents them, where Hillary Clinton won, where Hillary Clinton came within five points.
Well, here is sort of that quintessential district, it`s filled with these college-educated white Republican-leaning suburbanite voters.
Hillary Clinton almost beat Donald Trump off Mitt Romney had won this thing by 20-plus points in 2012.
It was a district that didn`t really like Donald Trump that much, and yet again, Republicans did get mobilized and did get activated here.
It looks like as much as Democrats were there, there were so much attention on the Democratic mobilization.
It looks like when Democrats did that, Republicans got fired up too and we basically have a result here that Ossoff number, that looks like Hillary Clinton`s number from last November.
O`DONNELL: Steve Kornacki, thank you very much for joining us, really appreciate it --
KORNACKI: Sure.
O`DONNELL: Joining us now, Steve Schmidt; Republican strategist and MSNBC political analyst. Also joining us Jason Johnson; politics editor at The Root.com and MSNBC contributor.
And Steve Schmidt, there are two comparisons being made here on Ossoff`s vote. His vote is being compared to Hillary Clinton`s vote which is a choice for president not a House member.
And the vote is being compared to the last congressional race in that district. Which one of those comparisons is the one that Republicans should be looking at tonight to contemplate their strength in the congressional election in 2018?
STEVE SCHMIDT, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: Look, Lawrence, if your house campaign strategist, I think you`re sitting there tonight going, thank God we pulled it out.
Just because the sea wall held doesn`t mean the storm wasn`t fierce and the waves weren`t large. This is an overwhelmingly Republican district.
Mitt Romney getting 66 percent of the vote, Donald Trump coming down to 49 percent, Tom Price getting elected somewhere between 68 percent to 61 percent in his elections.
So this is an ominous win for Republicans. When you look at the $23 million raised by grassroots donors, where you see that energy, the Democrats were tapping on the glass in this overwhelmingly Republican district.
And when you look at how the Democrats get into the majority, you have a 24-seat majority, 23 seats that Secretary Clinton carried that are represented by a Republican.
And I think what you`re seeing is the new battle ground of American politics or these suburbs where affluent white college-educated Republican voters who were uncomfortable with Donald Trump, I think are likely to be swing voters in 18, in 2020 as the Republican party has gotten more red, it`s become more rural as the Democratic party`s become more blue, it`s become more urban.
And that`s left the suburbs as a battlefield. And I think we saw one of the early battles of it playing out in this race which was surprisingly close.
O`DONNELL: Jason Johnson, if you`re a Republican in the House of Representatives and you won your seat with less than 20 percent of the vote, what do you feel like tonight?
JASON JOHNSON, MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR: You`re not all that encouraged. I mean, you have to look at Karen Handel and think like they basically spent $23 million -- they pretty much spent like Tom Brady`s salary to keep a seat that had been in Republican hands for 20 years.
That`s not something that you want to have to think about if you`re a Republican next year, heading into 2018, knowing that the public is going to be more energized, more excited and possibly unhappy about the healthcare bill. Look, at the end of the day, and I agree with Steve in this regard.
You know, this was a plus 9 percent registration district for the Republicans. They should have won this. The fact that it was even close and the fact that this much money had to be spent, I don`t think any Republican is comfortable right now because most can`t raise $23 million to stop someone who is challenging them.
O`DONNELL: And Steve Schmidt, we saw in South Carolina, a surprisingly close race tonight in that special election that people did not have their eye on expecting it to be that close.
SCHMIDT: If you go back to 1993, Lawrence, when Bill Clinton was pretty unpopular in that first term, you had two special elections that dropped into the Republican column out along the Mississippi River, the Kentucky one, the Kentucky two districts.
And that showed us that something was brewing for 1994. I think when you look right now, you consider the fact that the incumbent president`s party has only picked up seats in that first midterm three times in the last 118 years.
You look at the dispersion of those congressional districts that Hillary Clinton carried, represented by Republican, you consider the president`s approval numbers in the mid 30s.
The healthcare bill, the lack of an ability by this Republican leadership to move an agenda forward.
There are a lot of ominous wins out there if you`re a competitive member of Congress. And remember, most members of Congress are as likely to lose their seat as a member of the old Soviet (INAUDIBLE).
But for that special category that are in competitive races, they probably have a nauseous feeling tonight watching this Georgia 6 race.
O`DONNELL: Jason Johnson, what`s going to happen in this Georgia 6 district next year in the 2018 election? Will Jon Ossoff try to jump back in and try to rerun this race?
JOHNSON: No one is going to admit that now, Lawrence, but that`s what`s going to happen. Look, they`re just going to keep focusing on Karen Handel.
This is an important thing and I think this is key. This difference between sort of being on the outside and really being here on the ground and talking to some of the folks who are canvassing.
There wasn`t actually a tremendous amount of enthusiasm for either Karen Handel or Jon Ossoff. This was really a referendum on Trump in a district that more or less was still going to vote for him.
But within the year, as Karen Handel gets saddled with some of the same policy issues that have made Trump unpopular, I think she is going to be a number one target for Jon Ossoff next year.
He`s not fallen off the map, people are going to stay enthusiastic. I wouldn`t be surprised if we get a rematch next year and the result may turn out to be different.
O`DONNELL: And Steve Schmidt, in the 2018 congressional elections, the Republicans in Congress are either going to be defending a bill that they voted for on healthcare that has been signed into law or they`re going to be defending to some constituents their failure to get a bill on healthcare signed into law.
SCHMIDT: Yes, ultimately, it`s dammed if you do, dammed if you don`t. Nobody has any idea of course what`s in it, what it costs, how many people will lose their insurance, its impact.
Whether you think Obamacare is a good idea or a bad idea, should it be repealed or not? Yes, certainly, the method that they`re following, no public hearings, no public vetting of it, no ability for people who will be affected by it to weigh in.
It`s not going to have a -- it`s not going to have a good outcome, and already the House bill has a 17 percent approval level out across the -- out across the country.
When you look at agenda and the degree to which it stuck, and you look at how energized Democrats are at some of these districts.
You know, Republicans, you know, are going to have their work cut out for them in 2018. They`re heading into a big head wind and they`re going to have a difficult problem answering a pretty simple question which is, you know, the first check we get at the polls of how is Donald Trump doing?
What are they going to say when people ask the question, do you think he`s doing a good job as president? That`s tough for Republican candidates in these marginal districts to answer in a way that doesn`t make them look like fools or turn off Trump supporters.
So, they have some difficult hours ahead I suspect as we start to move into this `18 cycle.
O`DONNELL: Let`s take a look at what Paul Ryan is going to be facing. This is Randy Bryce who`s already announced that he wants to run as Democrat against Paul Ryan.
Speaker`s seat is supposed to be a safe seat. But let`s take a look at how Randy Bryce wants to run against Paul Ryan.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Paul Ryan, come up and say a few words. Congratulations on a job well done.
REP. PAUL RYAN (R-WI), SPEAKER, UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES: This is repealing and replacing Obamacare. Everybody doesn`t get what they want.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s a very painful condition. It`s like hot knives going through. And you can`t talk, you can`t swallow. It`s terrible. Look, I`m going to cry. I`m on 20 drugs and if I don`t take the one that costs thousands of dollars, I don`t know what would happen.
RANDY BRYCE, IRON WORKER: I`m the best person to represent this district because I`m a working person. If somebody falls behind and we`re so much stronger, if we carry them with us, that`s the way I was raised.
You look out for each other. I think it`s time, let`s trade places. Paul Ryan, you can come work the iron and I`ll go to D.C.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: Jason Johnson, it looks like every Republican might just have a serious Democratic challenger.
JOHNSON: Yes, this is a kin to when Republicans were chasing after Daschle(ph) a couple of years ago. You don`t usually see serious challengers against party leadership.
But this is the thing, Lawrence. This is a big political science issue that I think again is a sort of a big question that Republicans have to look at.
The enthusiasm on the side of Democrats is attracting better candidates, and better candidates are forcing people to have to defend a flank that they couldn`t have to do before.
And so I think we are already going to see, I bet you later on in the Summer, you`re going to see more and more Republicans decide, you know what? I may retire.
I don`t want to have to spend the next 18 months raising a million and half dollars to protect myself. And when you see something like this happening in Paul Ryan`s own backyard, it`s really a shot across the (INAUDIBLE) for any Republican out there to defend this administration which is sinking faster than any poll number people are going to imagine.
O`DONNELL: Steve Schmidt and Jason Johnson, thank you very much for joining us tonight, I really appreciate it.
JOHNSON: Thanks, Lawrence.
SCHMIDT: We could do it.
O`DONNELL: Coming up, voters are turning against votes the president in the latest poll and the president`s -- what is now, secret healthcare bill being managed by Senator Mitch McConnell.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O`DONNELL: Here`s Karen Handel speaking to her supporters in Georgia moments ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAREN HANDEL, FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE, GEORGIA: OK, just a really quick update. Things look very good.
I know a couple of the news outlets have called it, but we want to just watch a couple more things --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We won!
HANDEL: And do that --
(CHEERS)
(APPLAUSE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We won!
HANDEL: Now, all of you know that I am a person who likes to always dot every I and cross every T. So let`s just make sure we do that and I`ll be back down in just a very short time. Thank you all for everything!
(CHEERS)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MIKE PENCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I want to promise you that this administration is literally working around the clock with leaders in the United States Senate to move forward legislation in the very near future that will repeal and replace Obamacare.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell protected the Republican candidate Karen Handel in the Georgia congressional election by refusing to release any details of the healthcare bill until after that election.
Senator McConnell says "voters in the Georgia 6 congressional district and the rest of the country can find out what he has in mind for their healthcare on Thursday of this week.
Joining us now, Ezra Klein; editor-in-chief of Vox.com and Sam Stein; senior politics editor of "Huffington Post", soon to be politics editor of "The Daily Beast".
He`s also an MSNBC contributor. Ezra, as of 10:21 p.m. tonight, what do we know about the Senate bill?
EZRA KLEIN, MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR: We don`t know a ton about its details, but I think we know its broad outlines which is like the House bill, what the Senate bill is going to do is take hundreds of billions of dollars we are currently spending to provide health insurance to poor people and it is going to move that to provide tax cuts to rich people.
That is the core of the first bill, it`s going to be the core from everything we can tell of this bill as well. It`s going to cause massive disruption in healthcare system.
And one point I want to make because I think this is being underplayed in coverage. Republicans keep saying -- and this is really what I hear when I talk to them on the Hill, they need to pass this or something like it because they promise to repeal and replace Obamacare.
When they promised that, they also told their voters and all voters that they were going to get more coverage.
Donald Trump said everybody is going to be covered. Mitch McConnell said the problem with Obamacare is at least 25 million people uncovered.
And they said they`d be lower deductibles and lower co-pays. And this bill does none of those things. It`s going to have fewer people cover it, higher deductibles, higher co-pays.
So there is a breaking of that promise, and there`s no reason to think the Senate bill will be any different than the House bill on that score.
O`DONNELL: We know that Democrats are unsatisfied with the process. We know that the Democrats are all complaining about being shut out and having no information about this bill.
Republicans are making the same complaint. Let`s listen to Senator John McCain.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Senator --
SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY), MAJORITY LEADER: Yes --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You must be very confident that this bill is going to pass, number one. And number two, are you willing to burn a reconciliation package if it`s not?
MCCONNELL: We`re going to make every effort to pass a bill that dramatically changes the current healthcare law.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But that`s not confidence necessarily. I think you wouldn`t bring a bill up unless you were confident, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you satisfied with this process --
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: No --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right now?
MCCAIN: No, of course not.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why not?
MCCAIN: For the obvious reason that no one has even shared it. We used to complain like hell when the Democrats ran the Affordable Care Act, and now they`re doing the same thing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: Sam Stein, at least one Republican is consistent about this.
SAM STEIN, SENIOR POLITICS EDITOR, HUFFINGTON POST: Well, yes, I think the complaints about process that we`re hearing now though are a bit of a smoke screen.
And in the end, a lot of these senators will end up voting for a bill even if they have concerns of the process.
I think the one equip I would take, the one criticism I`m going to have about McCain`s statement is that he said at the end of it that Republicans are doing the same thing the Democrats did in 2009-2010.
In fact, the process in 2009-2010 while it was much maligned by Republicans was objectively open and transparent with regards to any passage of major legislation you can imagine.
There are dozens of committee hearings, dozens and dozens of them they offer, I`m sure Ezra has the exact number probably in the back of his head.
But it was widely open. I mean, if you remember at this -- roughly at this point in time in constructing that healthcare bill, Barack Obama was bringing Republican leaders to the Blair House so that he could hear their ideas and then turn some of those ideas into legislative language in the final part of the bill.
So it`s not the same as what`s happening in 2009-2010. It`s demonstrably worse.
O`DONNELL: Mike Lee is one of the people who was on this -- this quickly assembled group of people. I don`t want to call it a committee because it is not a Senate committee.
There is a Senate committee who has jurisdiction over this, but they`ve been ignored. And let`s listen to Mike Lee`s complaints about this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. MIKE LEE (R), UTAH: I`ve had a lot of people ask me specifically when the healthcare bill is going to be released to the public.
Why it isn`t public? The short answer to the question is, I haven`t seen it yet either. Even though I`ve been a member of this working group among Senate Republicans assigned to help narrow some of the focus of this.
I haven`t seen the bill. And it has become increasingly apparent in the last few days that even though we thought we were going to be in charge of writing a bill within this working group, it`s not being written by us.
It is apparently being written by a small handful of staffers for members of the Republican leadership in the Senate.
So if you`re frustrated by the lack of transparency in this process, I share your frustration. I share it wholeheartedly.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: Ezra, how can senators makes statements like that and then find their way to voting for this?
KLEIN: I think that`s been so amazing. I am part of the secret working group. If you are frustrate by secret working groups, just know I am not part of the super secret working group and I`ve now decided that you are right and I share your frustration.
Look, I think there`s a big point to be made about all of this. Which is that, there`s a reason Republicans have kept to a very secret process here.
Sam brought up I think properly the Blair House event in 2010, I think it was. And at that moment what happened was the Affordable Care Act was under fire.
Its passage looked at the very least hazy. Barack Obama, President Obama then, invited Republicans and Democrats to the Blair House for a nationally televised multi-hour debate over the bill.
And the reason he did that was the Democrats believed then, and at every point in time, that no matter what the poll said, if they could tell the American people who was in their bill, that the American people would like them.
Republicans have exactly the opposite belief. They believe that the American people have time to look at what is in their bill, they will not like it.
And so the best thing to do is to pass it as quickly as possible with little debate as possible and move on from it forever.
And that is an approach that just -- it`s grotesque when you`re dealing with a healthcare and the lives of this many people.
The possibility you know people are going to hate and keep a secret because you know it wouldn`t survive if you didn`t, that`s just not a moral way to do this.
O`DONNELL: Yes, Sam, there`s only one reason why you keep legislation secret, and that is that you know from the moment you make it public you are only going to lose votes.
STEIN: Yes, I mean, what I hear when I talk to any healthcare activist or staffer on the Hill working on both sides of the aisle is that we`re essentially witnessing a game of legislative hot potato.
No one wants to own this thing, and so they keep passing it along to someone else. The House got it out of their chamber, thankfully to give it to the Senate.
Now the Senate doesn`t want to be touching this thing, but they`re probably in likelihood going to pass it, get into the conference committee.
At some point, if this thing either fails or it passes through, so Ezra was right, they want to get it done, and they want to get it passed and move on quickly.
But at some point, it does become law, and at some point that law which is pulling in roughly the mid to low 20s will have a tangible impact on people and there will be a political price to pay presuming that they can`t get those numbers up.
It`s just -- no one wants to pay that price now and no one wants to see it go down for defeat.
O`DONNELL: Ezra, as we know, for this to become a law, there have to be at least, at least three more votes on this bill -- on a bill.
One in a Senate, and then both the House and the Senate will each have to have another vote on what would presumably be yet a third bill.
But that one has to be in identical form, pass both bodies in order to get there. There are plenty of places for this legislation to die between here and that finish line.
And I can`t help but wonder if Mitch McConnell wants to see it die after he just squeaks a vote through the Senate so that the members of the Senate who want to say I voted for something can say they voted for something.
Even though they won`t be able to say it became law.
KLEIN: I think that might be right. There`s been a lot of speculation, but I`m not sure if it is right that means the bill won`t pass.
And it exist, we`ve seen it at every point there --
O`DONNELL: It might pass by mistake in other words?
(CROSSTALK)
KLEIN: It is like a collective action problem. Everybody wants to stop it but nobody wants to be the one --
O`DONNELL: Right --
KLEIN: Who stopped it. Right, no faction wants to be blamed. No chamber wants to be blamed. And so this thing keeps moving inexorably forward because nobody wants to take the blame for destroying a bad bill but having to go before Republican primary voters and say we are the reason we didn`t repeal and replace Obamacare.
So yes, Mitch McConnell might just be trying to get it out of his hands for now, but then you go right back to the same dynamics again. Again, it is the worst possible way and the worst possible reason to craft or pass legislation I have ever watched.
O`DONNELL: Ezra Klein and Sam Stein, thank you both for joining us --
STEIN: Thanks, Lawrence --
O`DONNELL: Tonight, I really appreciate it --
KLEIN: Thank you.
O`DONNELL: In Georgia, Jon Ossoff has just conceded the race to Karen Handel. Coming up, a new poll shows some Republicans turning against the president in significant numbers now.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O`DONNELL: Coming up, new poll shows some Republicans turning against the President in significant numbers now.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O`DONNELL: Jon Ossoff just finished speaking in Georgia. We will bring you some of his comments as soon as we have that video ready. Today, Whitehouse press Secretary Sean Spicer continued to answer questions about Russia as if he was a mafia foot soldier being asked about the family business.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Does President Trump believe that the Russian government interfered in the 2016 elections?
SEAN SPICER, WHITEHOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: I think I have not sat down and talked about that specific thing. Obviously we have been dealing with a lot of other issues today.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: Joining us, Glenn Thrush, Whitehouse Correspondent for New York Times and MSNBC Contributor and Ron Klain Former Chief of Staff to Vice President Joe Biden and Al Gore and former Senior Aid to President Obama. He`s also a former Chief Counsel to the Senate Judiciary Committee. And he was chief of Staff to Attorney General Janet Reno.
Glenn Thrush, so I think Sean Spicer`s answer was a very good answer to be able to give to the FBI if it is true. I have not discussed any of this with the boss. That is the safest place to be on an FBI investigation if it`s true.
GLENN THRUSH, MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR: Well, look, one thing I will say, it wasn`t a very satisfying or it didn`t seem especially credible to people who are in the room at the time. But it is noteworthy that Spicer`s elocution on this issue has changed dramatically, I would say, over the last six weeks. And I think what it illustrates, Lawrence, is a realization on the part of Trump`s staff and by the way, we should say, people are beaten down, they`re demoralized, they feel like the boss doesn`t have their back.
And I just think there is a sense now that people need to protect themselves. And Spicer`s comments the way that he is talking about this were a lot less constrained six weeks ago before things got much more serious.
O`DONNELL: Glenn, you mean more defensive and more combative with the questions?
THRUSH: He would assert things as if they were fact.
O`DONNELL: Yes.
THRUSH: He would say -- he is now saying things that we are used to hearing from press secretaries. The president says, to the best of my knowledge, I have not discussed that with him. These are, I don`t believe Spicer lawyered up.
I think he will have to and I think many people in the West Wing will have to, even if they haven`t come to that realization yet. But in general, you`re hearing Spicer and other spokes people like Sarah Huckabee Sanders being far more equivocal.
They are not saying things, not stating things as if they were uncontested fact. the hyperbole has really tempered itself. I think it`s note worthy to notice now that they are putting things in the arena of responsibility of the President and other advisors and not taking it on themselves.
O`DONNELL: Ron Klain, Sean Spicer is under no public obligation to disclose that he has consulting or hired a lawyer. But when you listen to the distinctions that Glenn is showing us in way Shawn Spicer is speaks now, it is the way a lawyer would tell him to speak.
RON KLAIN, MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR: Yes I think it could be. He may have a lawyer. He may have just gotten good advice.
But I think, you know, he also is supposed to be at the podium representing the point of the view of the President and the President earlier months ago had said - had acknowledged Russia intervened in our election. And I think the biggest question for us as citizens is if you have Russia who intervened in our election 2016 and is threatening to do so in 2018, 20, how can we have confidence that our President is supposed to be defending us from that when his Press Secretary can`t acknowledge that the threat exists.
Press Secretary says he doesn`t know if the president believes the threat exists. And his Attorney General testified last week he hasn`t been briefed thon threat. So I think as Americans we should be concerned whether or not we are protected from the threat to our democracy. Going forward if our president and attorney general seems oblivious to the threat.
O`DONNELL: And Ron, the lawyer up news of the day is that the top lawyer in the American government now has a lawyer. Attorney General Jeff Sessions now has hired private outside counsel to represent t him in the investigation. It has been a long time since the Attorney General of the United States has had to hire outside private defense counsel.
KLAIN: It`s true. And it`s fascinating hire, Lawrence. So a man named Charles Chuck Cooper. He`s from Alabama. He`s said to be a close confidant to the Attorney General.
He`s one of the most distinguished conservative lawyers in Washington. Blue Chip Lawyer but his specialty is arguing at the Supreme Court. In fact early on, it was rumored he would be Trump administration Chief Lawyer for Supreme Court. And so hiring him for this is like hiring a brain surgeon when have you a hip problem.
It`s hard to explain, except for this, he is a close confidant of Attorney General. He helped him get ready for confirmation hearings. And it`s possible what hiring is about is extending attorney client privilege to whatever Jeff Sessions told Chuck Cooper to make sure Chuck Cooper couldn`t be asked about that. And that confidence, whatever confidences he shared with Cooper are now shielded bit attorney/client privilege.
O`DONNELL: That`s a great point. And so Glenn, that leaves open the possibility that the Attorney General could hire more experience experienced criminal defense counsel to add to this team if he needs it. But right now if you want it ask any questions of the person who helped prepare Jeff Sessions for confirmation hearing testimony you can`t really do that. And that testimony is the subject of a possible perjury investigation.
THRUSH: Yes. Well I have to say i am blown away by that point. I forgotten that Ron was counsel of the judiciary committee. I guess we just found out how he earned his money, right?
O`DONNELL: that`s why I`m always - it`s why I always include it in Ron`s title. judiciary committee. I was on another committee when he was that committee so I never forget it.
THRUSH: I would not have come up with that one. I think what is interesting is to contrast the hires. Pence lawyered up. Sessions now has. I think you`re totally right. These legal teams seem to be billowing.
I think the one interesting dynamic is Trump`s legal team seems to also be sort of his PR team. Jay Sekulow has been on frankly every show throwing bombs. I think tonight on Fox he said there aught to be a grand jury investigating former FBI Director Comey. O think what is really odd about Trump`s legal team is they seem to be just as involved doing sort of communications work because I think there is a sense in the Whitehouse that they have not been able to form a counter attack.
What was very interesting also, again, because can I speak to the Comp Stuff a bit more than the legal stuff, is we had a situation today where we were on day eight of Sean Spicer, Sarah Huckabee not giving an on-record briefing in front of cameras. We sort of shamed - we kind of shamed them into doing it, I believe. I don`t know that for a fact. but there is a reason. They do not want to have people out there making more statements that can ultimately relay to them in legal settings.
O`DONNELL: All right, we`re going to go live to Georgia now. Karen Handel is giving a victory speech in the Special Congressional Election there. Let`s listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAREN HANDEL (R), GEORGIA CONGRESSIONAL CANDIDATE: I`d like to take a minute to acknowledge a new friend ways able to make over the course of that campaign, this campaign, that is majority whip Steve Scalise. Right up until that tragic day on the ball field, Steve would drop me a text message every single week just to make sure I was doing okay and hanging tough. I think he even called me the Terminator in one of them. Wasn`t sure about that one, Steve but Asta La Vista. Let me just tell you.
But really and truly, what happened, on that ball field, was a terrible tragedy. And we need to all continue to lift up Steve and others who were injured that day. And we need to also lift up this nation so that we can find a more civil way to deal with our disagreements because in these United States of America, no one, no one should ever feel their life threatened over their political beliefs and position.
And I say that ladies and gentlemen in regards to both sides of the political aisle. Through this campaign I have had a really great joy of getting to know any number of our leaders in Washington. And let me tell you, even though within our own GOP family we sometimes have disagreements. These are fine men and women who are doing their level best for this country.
I`m really honored to be able to stand before you tonight and so extraordinarily humbled. But as most people know, most big things are not accomplished by one person alone. And I add tremendous amount of support in this campaign from each and every one of you, to a great campaign team. They really are -- yes, give them hand.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: That`s Karen Handel giving her victory speech in Georgia in the special election here tonight. Here is what Jon Ossoff had to say a bit earlier before Karen Handel came up to speak.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JON OSSOFF (D), GEORGIA CONGRESSIONAL CANDIDATE: Friends, I called Secretary Handel. and, no, please - I commened on a hard-fought race and on her victory this evening. Now let me address you, the more than 12,000 of you who as darkness has crept across this planet, have provided a beacon of hope for people here in Georgia, for people across the country, and for people around the world.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O`DONNELL: No president has ever shown less interest in the actual job of the presidency than Donald Trump, who according to all available evidence, spends more time tweeting and playing golf than he does trying to pass legislation or manage American interests in the world`s most difficult hot spots like North Korea, that just in effect murdered one of our citizens on President Trump`s watch.
And Iraq, Afghanistan and Syria where the president apparently abdicated presidential decision making and left day-to-day operations to military commanders. A Russian fighter intercepted a U.S. spy plane over the Baltic Sea reportedly coming within just five feet of that aircraft Monday. That incident happened on the same day the Russian defense ministry threatened to treat any American planes fighting ISIS in Syria as targets if they fly west of the Euphrates river.
There was no response whatsoever from the president of the United States on that threat from the Russian defense ministry. Earlier today, an American fighter jet shot down an Iranian-made armed drone that was headed in the direction of American troops in southern Syria. This is the second such drone that U.S. Military shot down this month. Foreign policy magazine is reporting on the in-fighting within the Trump administration and the White House on what to do in Syria.
The report says the two White House officials are pushing to take wider action in Syria but according to that report Secretary of Defense James Mattis has personally shot down their proposals more than once. A former general has not had this much authority in the American government since Dwight Eisenhower was president.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. CHRIS COONS (D), DELAWARE: I`m greatly concerned that we may be slipping into a hot war with Assad`s forces, with Iran or even with Russia. And we need a clear strategy from the Trump administration.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: That was Senator Chris Coons of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee speaking today on Capitol Hill. Joining us now Jeremy Bash, MSNBC National Security Analyst and a former Chief of Staff to Leon Panetta when he was the director of the CIA and Secretary of Defense at the Defense Department, Jeremy what happens if the president simply says, you guys are in charge?
Defense Secretary, everybody else concerned with our assets in Syria, Afghanistan, Iraq, it`s up to you. You don`t have to check with me. Make any decisions you want.
JEREMY BASH, MSNBC NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Well National Security is a team sport, Lawrence. You need every player working together. You need the State Department working in concert with the Defense Department, working in concert with the uniform military, working in concert with the intelligence community and should all be put together by the National Security Adviser reporting up to the president as the Commander in Chief.
So when every player doesn`t work with each other, then there is a recipe for miscommunication and ultimately failure. And I would say Lawrence that there is - there is never been a time more tense than this in the skies over Syria. Let`s just focus on what happened. The Russians declared a no fly zone. That was going to be our strategy to deny Assad`s forces to deny the Russians the ability to attack our forces on the ground.
And those we are supporting in the campaign against ISIS. Instead what they basically said is you Americans you have to keep your planes grounded west of the Euphrates. And it`s really unclear at this hour Lawrence whether or not the president is going to stand for it to -- to this minute we have heard nothing from the president about this problem.
O`DONNELL: Well, who -- who -- who likes this situation? I mean I can imagine in Henry Kissinger`s White House if the president were to say I have absolutely no interest in anything that happens on your watch. Henry Kissinger would have been thrilled. He would have been in effect president of foreign policy, president of all defense policy because in what you just described it all flows into the national security adviser.
And if the national security adviser doesn`t have to check with the president, doesn`t the national security adviser on these matters in effect become president.
BASH: Yes, but I don`t know any national security adviser or secretary of defense and I would bet secretary Mattis and General McMaster are in this category. They don`t want to operate as free agents. They don`t want to operate without the input from the White House, the inner agency. They are used to a normal orderly national security process.
They don`t like freelancing they want to have conversation. They want to have an organized foreign policy process. And they want buy in from the commander in chief. They want involvement by the president. So - so I actually think that they would - they would want that. I think the problem is really a policy problem which is that the president has to date been unwilling to push Russia out of the way in the skies over Syria. And as a result what you`ve seen is you`ve seen Iranian drones, you`ve seen Syrian fighter aircraft coming to attack those forces on the ground that we are supporting.
And we have troops on the ground in Syria. This is a very dangerous and delicate situation. And for the president basically to say we`re okay with Russia pushing us out of the way, I think that`s unacceptable and harmful to troops and our interests.
O`DONNELL: And we know when -- according to reporting after the fact that when we used the big bomb in Afghanistan that had never been used before, the president had pre-delegated the authority to make that decision without checking with him.
BASH: Yes but I got to say Lawrence my sources tell me the president was not involved in that decision at all. He took credit for it later because I think he - he thought it looked somehow macho but he was not involved in the decision at all. Likewise he was not involved in the decision at all to shoot down the Syrian Aircraft, the SU22 fighter that shot at the Syrian Defense Forces on the ground.
The president wasn`t involved in that at all. That was a decision made by the commander in the field, ultimately the central command commander General Votel and ultimately the Secretary of Defense. And -- and the president again has not been taking on the -- the Russian forces, the Syrian air forces and the Iranian air forces in the skies over Syria.
O`DONNELL: Jeremy, how would it have changed your job at the defense department working for the secretary of defense if you were sitting there waiting for presidential decisions that`s simply were not coming?
BASH: That would have been unacceptable. I mean time matters. Again, when lives are on the line you don`t have a lot of time to waste. Some of this authority should be pre-delegated. The rules of engagement should be set forth to the secretary of defense and the commanders on the ground. And then if there are any adjustments to make you take that back to national security councils have conversation in the inner agency group and ultimately take things to the president.
If the president is not involved or more specifically if the president is unwilling to take the fight to Russia in the skies over Syria again that is a very dangerous situation.
O`DONNELL: Jeremy Bash thank you for sharing your expertise and experience with us again tonight, really appreciate it.
BASH: Thanks Lawrence.
O`DONNELL: Tonight`s last word is next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O`DONNELL: Here is more of what democrat Jon Ossoff had to say tonign after his republican opponent Karen Handel was projected the winner of that congressional special election in Georgia.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OSSOFF: At a time when politics has been dominated by fear and hatred and scapegoating and division. This community stood up. Women in this community stood up. You did. You did. And you picked this campaign up and you picked me up and you picked and you picked Alicia up and you carried us on your shoulders.
And we showed the world that in places where no one thought it was even possible to fight we could fight.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: Jon Ossoff gets tonight`s LAST WORD. "THE 11TH HOUR" with Brian Williams starts now.
END