The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell, Transcript 2/14/2017

Mark Mazzetti, Nick Confessore, David Corn, Eli Stokols, Elijah Cummings, Nada Bacos, Malcolm Nance, Joan Walsh, Catherine Rampell


Date: February 14, 2017

Guest: Mark Mazzetti, Nick Confessore, David Corn, Eli Stokols, Elijah Cummings, Nada Bacos, Malcolm Nance, Joan Walsh, Catherine Rampell


RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC:  What are you going to do? – Here`s is what the

recruitment director for the VCCC is saying about those races.


“We all have to acknowledge that those seats are held by Republicans and

they`ve been held by Republicans for quite some time.”


And so, what are you going to do? Yes, things are moving.  Races are in

motion.  That district, Tom Price`s district, Trump won it by one and a

half points.


Democratic Party really isn`t going to contest that? Really? Democrats, if

you`re not moving forward right now, you are losing ground.


That does it for us tonight, we will see you again tomorrow, now it`s time

for THE LAST WORD, Joy Reid sitting in for Lawrence tonight, good evening,



JOY REID, MSNBC:  Good evening Rachel.  You know, you almost wish it was

like – I don`t know, an opposition party that knew how to do politics or

something –




MADDOW:  I think the Democratic Party is about to find that their base is

their own opposition party –


REID:  Yes – 


MADDOW:  Which is going to make them do politics here.


REID:  Isn`t that amazing? Yes, they`re –


MADDOW:  Exactly –


REID:  Being driven, literally dragged by their voters to do the right



And they`re going – oh, you want us to fight? Got it, we`ll get on that.




MADDOW:  Yes, that`s a good idea –


REID:  Thanks a lot –


MADDOW:  That –




Thanks Joy –


REID:  Thank you, take care, thank you Rachel.  I am Joy Reid in for

Lawrence O`Donnell.  


We have breaking news tonight about reports that Trump campaign officials

had repeated contact with Russian intelligence officials.


And one of the reporters who broke that story joins me.  And Donald Trump

had at least two weeks.


Meanwhile, two weeks warning about Michael Flynn and the potential that he

could be compromised by Russia.


But he decided to keep him as national security adviser anyway.


But Donald Trump was also warned about Michael Flynn last year.  Warned by

generals and intelligence experts that Michael Flynn was not suited for the



But it was Donald Trump who ignored those warnings.  And so who should take

the blame for the crisis in the White House?




SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D), NEW YORK:  General Flynn`s resignation is not the

end of the story. 


REP. JOHN LEWIS (D), GEORGIA:  This is a fight for the soul of our



LESTER HOLT, JOURNALIST:  The president was warned that Flynn might be

vulnerable to blackmail by the Russians. 


CHRIS MATTHEWS, MSNBC:  How can you not tell the vice president for two



CHUCK TODD, MODERATOR, MEET THE PRESS:  It looks like he was deliberately

kept in the dark.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  I just have a hundred more questions.


SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (D), SOUTH CAROLINA:  I`d like to know did he just do

this as a rogue General Flynn?


MATTHEWS:  Was Trump in cahoots with Flynn?


SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (D), ARIZONA:  The whole environment is one of dysfunction

in the Trump administration.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  The White House knew about this weeks ago and did

nothing to remove him.


KELLYANNE CONWAY, COUNSEL TO DONALD TRUMP:  General Flynn continued in that

position and was in the presidential daily briefings –






CONWAY:  General Flynn, that makes no sense.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  Even last weekend, in charge of the wildly criticized

Mar-a-Lago dinner table conference. 


JIMMY KIMMEL, COMEDIAN & TELEVISION HOST:  Trump spent the whole campaign

freaking out that Hillary used a private e-mail server.




KIMMEL:  Now, he`s holding national security meetings over shrimp cocktails

surrounded by camera phones.






REID:  Breaking news tonight.  The “New York Times” is reporting that

“phone records and intercepted calls show that members of Donald J. Trump`s

2016 presidential campaign and other Trump associates had repeated contacts

with senior Russian intelligence officials in the year before the election.


According to four current and former American officials.  Now, it`s already

been reported that some Trump campaign aides had contact with Russian

government officials during the election.


But what`s new about this report is that the “Times” is specifically saying

that Trump associates had contact with Russian intelligence officials

during the election.


The American officials that are quoted in this piece said that one of the

advisors picked up on intercepted calls was Paul Manafort who was Donald

Trump`s campaign chairman for several months last year.


The officials interview said that so far they had no evidence of such

cooperation between the Trump associates and Russian intelligence



Now, this news comes nearly 24 hours after Donald Trump`s national security

adviser General Michael Flynn resigned.


But this morning, Donald Trump didn`t seem too concerned about the chaos

and the confusion surrounding Flynn`s resignation or the chaos in his White

House generally.


Tweeting this complaint instead.  “The real story here is why are there so

many illegal leaks coming out of Washington.  Will these leaks be happening

as I deal on North Korea, et cetera?”


For President Trump, the cause of his problems wasn`t the fact that the

Justice Department and intelligence officials were worried that his

national security adviser was subject to blackmail by the Russians and

discuss the easing sanctions and undermining U.S. foreign policy.


No, it was the fact that it had been leaked to the press.  But as “Vox`s”

Dillon Matthews(ph) points out, “before damaging news is leaked, damaging

events have to actually occur.


And even a cursory examination of the leaks about which Trump is

complaining reveals that the real problem isn`t leakers or hostile

bureaucrats, it`s Donald Trump.”


In other words, Donald Trump brought this drama on himself.  It should have

been obvious long before Trump won the presidency that General Flynn was

not the acceptable choice for a national security position.


General Flynn must be fired as the director of the Defense Intelligence

Agency in 2014.  Amid reports that his views and management style were

disruptive and chaotic. 


Perhaps more trouble in given recent developments, General Flynn has been -

- repeatedly – has repeatedly taken a sympathetic line toward Russia.


In December of 2015, he spoke at a gala in Moscow for Russia`s state-

sponsored propaganda arm “Russia Today”.


He was even photographed with Vladimir Putin at that event sitting at

Putin`s table and participating in giving him a standing ovation.


And of course, Flynn became a leading conservative activist and conspiracy

theorist on the campaign trail.




FLYNN:  Lock her up! Lock her up!


AUDIENCE:  Lock her up! Lock her up! Lock her up! Lock her up!


FLYNN:  You guys are good.  And damn right! You`re exactly right.  There`s

nothing wrong with that!




REID:  Well, nearly, all of this information was public at the time that

Donald Trump was forming his administration.


And none of it was enough to dissuade him from hiring General Flynn as his

national security adviser.


Now, the White House is observed with damage control as Flynn`s resignation

overshadows the administration`s agenda.


But the president was right in one sense, the real story isn`t General

Flynn, but it isn`t government leaks either.


The real story is the attempted cover-up by the Trump White House about

General Flynn and how complicit Donald Trump was in the underlying act.


Now, the White House would have you believe that when Flynn discussed

easing U.S. sanctions against Russia with the Russian ambassador, he was

just a rogue operator who went freelance and then lied to the president and

the vice president.


But in reality, there is likely only two options here.  One, Donald Trump

either authorized Flynn to make those calls to the Russian ambassador or,

two, Donald Trump let a rogue, potentially compromised Russian asset into

the national security inner sanctum of the United States.


Joining us now is Mark Mazzetti; one of the reporters who broke the “New

York Times” story tonight.


And Mark, thank you for being here.  What was remarkable to me in reading

this story was just recalling the fact that you have the former campaign

chairman of the Trump administration – Trump campaign, Paul Manafort.


You have Carter Page, who is believed to have changed actual RNC policy

toward Crimea and Russia during the campaign.


Roger Stone, a long-time crony of Donald Trump, but also Michael Flynn who

becomes national security adviser all under investigation.  FBI

investigation.  Remarkable.  Tell us what else is remarkable and new in

your story?


MARK MAZZETTI, NEW YORK TIMES:  Well, we focused on in this story, it was

these contacts that went on apparently during the past year before the

campaign between Trump campaign aides and associates of Donald Trump and

Russian intelligence officials.


American intelligence and law enforcement officials have identified people

in Russian intelligence.


Now, we have to be careful about what we know and we don`t know, and we say

that these contacts happened, there were phone logs and intercepted

communications between the aides and people that the Americans have

identified as Russian intelligence.


And – but it does just show that the FBI investigation is still ongoing.

They are still trying to get information about exactly what these ties were

all about.


And whether this was business, whether this was campaign business.  That we

still don`t know.  But I think that the connections, at least the contacts

with Russian intelligence is significant.


REID:  Well, one of the things that was pretty extraordinary, and a pretty

extraordinary story is that Paul Manafort`s reaction to your reporting was

to say it`s absurd, he has no idea what you`re referring to.


He`s never knowingly spoken to Russian intelligence officers.  And then he

says it`s not like these people wear badges that say “I am a Russian

intelligence officer.”


This is a guy that`s done business in Ukraine and with Russian aficionados

in the Ukraine for years.  And did it seem credible to you that he wouldn`t

– have had any idea who he was talking to?


MAZZETTI:  Well, it is hard to know.  I mean, it`s – you know, he`s a

person who knows the region very well.


At the same time, you know, as we say in our story that the intelligence

services in those countries are deeply embedded in the society.  Sometimes

you may or may not know who`s in fact Russian intelligence.


Some, he is right, don`t actually wear badges or uniforms.  However, there

– I think the amount of the contacts that was going on during this period

of time was enough to raise some alarms.


At least just think that this did bear more investigation.  So, Manafort is

the only person in the story who we name as having been on these

intercepted communications.


But as you pointed out, this is part of a broader investigation going on

that has include other individuals, Page, Stone, et cetera, Flynn, that is

still ongoing.


REID:  All right, Mark Mazzetti, thank you very much for your reporting.


MAZZETTI:  Thank you very much. 


REID:  Thank you, and joining me now Nick Confessore; political reporter

for the “New York Times” and an Msnbc contributor. 


David Corn; Washington Bureau chief for “Mother Jones” and an Msnbc

political analyst.  And Eli Stokols; White House correspondent for

“Politico”.  Thank you all for being here.


Nick, I`m going to start with you.  I mean, I personally cannot think of

any of the situation where the former campaign chairman, a campaign

operative and the incoming and national security adviser to the president

of the United States were under FBI investigation.


For anything let alone this.



new White House, and the Trump administration is under FBI investigation.


Just stop and think about that –


REID:  Yes –


CONFESSORE:  For a second.  It is astonishing.  Twenty five days in, and

this began over the Summer of course.  And now potentially, it can

implicate the now former NSA –


REID:  Yes –


CONFESSORE:  Quit being in contact with the Russian intelligence or you

know, possibly other members of Trump`s team in contact with the Russian



That`s amazing. 


REID:  It is amazing.  And, David Corn, you know, because I have been

talking to you about the Trump campaign`s sort of affinity to Russia and

the various contacts for months literally since the campaign was still





REID:  In your view, just sort of explain to people who feel like they`ve

been inundated with Trump Russia information over the last year.  What is

actually new that we`ve discovered as of today?


CORN:  The key thing that is coming out of the “New York Times” story,

market is – co-authors for a great piece. 


Is gets to what I think big issue is.  We can talk about Michael Flynn`s

conversations with the Russian ambassador during the transition period.


And whether they weren`t improper, whether he lied to them.  It`s a big

deal, it is a legitimate scandal.


But to me, the bigger possible scandal is the notion that Trump associates

were talking to the Putin regime, at the same time the Putin regime was

trying to subvert the U.S. election in order to help Trump.


Now, we learned just a few days ago in “The Washington Post” piece that the

conversations that Flynn was having with the Russian Ambassador Sergey

Kislyak actually began during the campaign.


So, here, you have Trump`s top national security person during the campaign

talking to Putin`s guy.  While Putin is trying to destroy the election to

help Trump.  Now, what were they talking about?


Were they sending signals? And tonight`s story with the “New York Times”

shows that there were a greater range of contacts between people in Trump`s

camp and Russians.


And it goes back to those Trump-Russian memos, and I need to say, you know,

I hate to blow my own horn that I reported them first in October.


The main point of them was not all the salacious stuff.  It was that the

Trump team was communicating with Russian officials during the campaign.


And that there was an exchange of information, there were some degree of

collusion.  And tonight, we see more evidence of that, and we see that too

in the Flynn story.


That`s the big thing that the Trump people work with signal, deal with

Putin as Putin was undermining American democracy.


REID:  Yes, absolutely, and I should add that in the “New York Times” story

tonight, as part of the inquiry, the FBI is also trying to assess the

credibility of the information in that dossier, sort of called the dossier. 


So, that is still being run down.  Eli Stokols, meanwhile, the White House

today tried to turn the story into one of a rogue operator than General

Michael Flynn just went off on his own and saying it was a trust issue. 


This is my – this is Sean Spicer trying to sort of make the White House

account align with reality today at the press briefing.




SEAN SPICER, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY:  Immediately after the Department

of Justice notified the White House counsel of the situation, the White

House counsel briefed the president and a small group of the senior



The White House counsel reviewed and determined that there is not a legal

issue but rather a trust issue.




REID:  So, Eli, they`re trying to make it sound as if even though they were

warned by the then acting Attorney General, by intelligence officials weeks

ago about Flynn, that somehow a break-down in trust happened in what, the

last 24 hours?


It doesn`t really make a lot of sense.


ELI STOKOLS, POLITICO:  Well, it only makes sense when you figure out what

else happened in the last 24 hours.  And that was some really extensive

reporting laying bare what they knew and when they knew it.


And forced the White House to take some action finally.  I mean, if not for

the reporting and for the leaks that the Trump administration is maligning,

General Flynn would probably still be in this position as NSA.


And so, you know, that`s what has moved the White House, they can turn this

around and complain about the leaks and everything else.


They can say that this is some sort of conspiracy from the people left over

from the Obama administration running these agencies.


But you can just look at Donald Trump`s poll numbers and all of the things

that are coming out now and know that, that is not going to pass muster

with the public.


REID:  Yes, and you had Roger Stone, Nick, come out and attempt to defend

and sort of also launch another story line.


Which is, this is certainly – this is just simply palace intrigue between

the Priebus-Pence swing and the sort of the base of the Trump world.


And he tweeted today that “Reince`s purge of Flynn is a Pearl Harbor for

Trump loyalists.  Hope the midget is ready to rumble.”  And Roger –




REID:  Stone is somebody who is also potentially under investigation for

contacts with the Russians. 


CONFESSORE:  Look, it`s a clear effort to ship the conversation away from

the actual substance of the leaks.  I should note that in our reporting,

you know, Bannon also pushed at the very end for the – Flynn.


So, although Flynn and Bannon seemed on the same page on some of the issues

on Islam, another issues at the very end, it was pretty much, you know, all

hands were against Flynn.


So, it was not exactly a conspiracy of –


REID:  Yes –


CONFESSORE:  The establishment.


REID:  Well, one hand that was not against Flynn, David Corn with the

Russian lawmakers who were out defending Michael Flynn today.


Russian lawmakers rushed to his defense saying “he was pushed out not

because of his mistake but because of the unfolding campaign of



Russians with the exit was one of the newspapers saying “paranoia and a

witch-hunt.”  What do you make of that?


CORN:  You know, I don`t think we can take any of that seriously.  We have

a long record now of Trump talking positively about Putin and Russia.


You have the spectacle today of Sean Spicer coming out at the press

briefing, and saying no one has been tougher on Russia than Donald Trump.


I mean, talk about alternative facts, that sort of like drug-induced

hallucinogenic of alternative facts.  So, you know, there – you know,

Russia has not played straight except after the election.


You know, the deputy prime minister said of course we had contacts, of

course we had contacts with the Trump campaign.


Whole picks – Trump spokeswoman at the time said not true, Trump has said

not true, Pence says it`s not true.


They`ve all been proven false by Flynn`s pre-election contacts and now by

the “New York Times” story. 


REID:  Yes, and Eli, you know, on the FBI has been much maligned in all of



You had Democrats really screaming bloody murder that they came out and

dropped that bomb on the election 11 days before and Hillary Clinton.


You now had Robby Mook, the campaign manager for Hillary Clinton coming out

today and saying I`d like the FBI to explain why they sent a letter about

Clinton but not about this.


I mean, this is something that Democrats including Harry Reid, the outgoing

senate minority leader were saying there was explosive information that

wasn`t coming out.  Is it possible it was this?


STOKOLS:  Yes, I mean, the FBI director will have to answer for that.  But

that`s a matter for history.


Right now, we have a new administration and the administration really is

sort of losing credibility faster than we can even keep up with.


I mean, at this point, you know, they`ve lied about everything from crowd

sizes, you know, you name it, down the list.


And so, now, when they`re changing their story almost on hourly basis about

this, it`s hard to really take much of what they`re saying at face value.


And it really is adding to the pressure now I think on Congressional

Republicans who have really tried to look the other way at a lot of the

controversies coming from the White House.


There is going to be pressure now, mounting pressure to investigate this,

perhaps to have an independent investigation of the administration and its

ties to Russia. 


And I think it`s going to be very hard.  You already are starting to hear

Republicans joining Democrats in Congress, saying that they may need to

pursue such an investigation.


I think stories like this, more misdirection and conflicting statements

from the White House just sort of guarantee that it`s going to go that



REID:  Yes, this is – there will be no turning the page on this, this is

just going to continue.  Nick Confessore, Eli Stokols and David Corn, thank

you, guys.


CORN:  Sure –


CONFESSORE:  Thank you –


STOKOLS:  Thank you –


REID:  And coming up, more on the breaking news with the ranking member of

the House Oversight Committee Elijah Cummings.


How long can Republicans slow down investigations of Donald Trump?




REID:  In response to the breaking reports from the “New York Times”

tonight, former Clinton campaign spokesman Brian Fallon tweeted,

“everything we suspected during the campaign is proven true.


This is a colossal scandal.”  Congressman Elijah Cummings is next. 







Russia, if you`re listening, I hope you`re able to find the 30,000 e-mails

that are missing.


I think you will probably be rewarded mightily by our press.  Let`s see if

that happens, that will be next.




REID:  We are continuing to follow the breaking news tonight from the “New

York Times” that members of Donald Trump`s presidential campaign had

repeated contact with Russian intelligence officials in the year before the



Despite all of this interaction, U.S. officials tell the “Times” that so

far there`s no evidence that the Trump team worked with Russia to influence

the election.


And joining me now is Maryland Democrat Congressman Elijah Cummings; the

ranking member on the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform.


Congressman, I want to start by getting your reaction to the breaking news

about these apparent contacts between the Trump campaign at the time and

Russian intelligence officials.


REP. ELIJAH CUMMINGS (D), MARYLAND:  Well, I must tell you, Joy, that I

wasn`t completely surprised.


I`ve been pushing very hard for more information about what may have been

going on with campaign officials in the Trump campaign and the Russians

literally for months.


And I have not been able to get our Chairman, Mr. Chaffetz to cooperate

with me.  But this does not surprise me, but I must tell you, Joy, it is

very alarming. 


REID:  Yes, let me actually play you what Chairman Chaffetz had to say

today about the question of whether there should be a bigger investigation. 

Take a listen.




UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  Should there be a broader bipartisan independent

investigation into the administration`s ties to Russia?



I think that situation has taken care of itself.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  Is your committee going to take any action on this?


CHAFFETZ:  Well, indicating the sources and methods, it really is the

purview of the Intel committee.


They really are the only ones that can look at that type of information,

particularly when you`re talking about interactions with a nation state

like that.




REID:  You know, I`ve got to tell you, Congressman, this is the same Jason

Chaffetz who seemed ready to hound Hillary Clinton even onto impeachment

over her e-mail server.    


Here he seems quite mild about his attitude toward Donald Trump and the

Russian contacts.


CUMMINGS:  Oh, he doesn`t want to touch Donald Trump.  And one of the

things he is not failing to say, Joy, is something that I have asked him to



And that is to join Congressman Swalwell and mine with regard to a bill

that we have that would create an independent commission.


No senators, no members of the house, but an independent 9/11-type

commission to have findings to research this issue with regard to Russia

and our elections.


To come up with findings and then present recommendations to make sure it

doesn`t happen again.


And that would be an independent equal number of Democrats, equal number of

Republicans and would have subpoena power.


That`s the only way you`re going to get to this.  Because by doing it

through the committee system, Joy, what you end up with is a Benghazi-type



And then you get caught up in the politics.  This is too important to get

caught up in politics.


REID:  Yes, absolutely, and you know, Congressman Chaffetz did mention the

intelligence committee.


Well, let`s take a listen to what Congressman Devin Nunes who is the

chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, what he thinks his committee

ought to be looking into.





what I know, General Flynn didn`t break the law, talking to the Russian

Ambassador, in fact that`s his job.


Who did break the law is whoever recorded this – whoever recorded his

phone call unmasked it and leaked it.  That is clearly multiple violations.




REID:  Clearly, we face extraordinary situation, congressman.  Where we

could have the House Intelligence Committee more interested in

investigating the leaks than investigating potential contacts with Russian

intelligence services.


CUMMINGS:  Joy, that`s not unusual.  They – when they get caught in a

situation, they switch the subject.


But what Nunes did not tell you that he was a part of the Trump transition

team.  So, I don`t know that we would get a fair hearing out of the

intelligence committee.


Now, I must tell you that one of my most respected colleagues, Congressman

Schiff, he is the ranking member and I know he`ll do his best.


But even he will tell you that maybe we can have a dual effort.  They can

do their intelligence work within the Congress, but you need to have this

independent commission.


Let me tell you something, Joy, I think there`s more that`s going to come

out and the question becomes what did the president know and when did he

know it?


Whether he went along with Flynn having these contacts and then this “New

York Times” story tonight just shows us that there is a connection between

– and was a connection between the campaign and the Russians.


And all Americans should be upset about this.


REID:  Yes, absolutely.  And have you in your time in politics and in

public life, sir, ever heard of a situation where an incoming national

security adviser or any high official of an incoming administration went on

their own without permission from the principal to have contact with

foreign leaders and essentially make policy?


CUMMINGS:  Never.  And I can tell you when I think about a man like Donald

Trump, who tweets at 4:00 in the morning, who is all over the top of the



As a matter of fact, I`ve actually talked to him from morning – from the

“MORNING JOE” show in the mornings.


A man like that, you would think that he would have all the information,

particularly something of this significance, he would be aware of all of



And if he didn`t have it, and that is, if he didn`t know that Flynn was

talking to the Russian ambassador, you have to wonder what kind of shop

he`s running.


REID:  Yes, and I guess the big question a lot of Americans are also asking

is, do you have any sense of what the breaking point is for Republicans?


Is there some limit? Because this is extraordinary.  We`re talking about at

least three members of the Trump campaign, including the campaign chairman,

being under investigation by the FBI and the national security adviser

being under FBI investigation.


Have you detected any limit that would cause your colleagues on the other

side of the aisle to be willing to investigate this president? 


CUMMINGS:  Not yet, but I think we`re slowly getting there.  Today, Joy, I

had several members of the Republican Party for the first time to come to

me to tell me that they were looking at getting on this independent bill,

this bill to have the independent commission.


And I was shocked about that.  So, I think they`re slowly getting there. 

Because the evidence is becoming overwhelming that something is awfully

wrong with this picture.


Joy, this is an instance where we have to put country above party, and this

is a fight for our democracy.


And it`s bigger than Trump, and it`s bigger than this one election, this is

about generations yet unborn.


REID:  Yes, indeed, Congressman Elijah Cummings, thank you so much for your

time, really appreciate it. 


CUMMINGS:  Thank you.


REID:  Thank you.  And coming up next, the Trump campaign reportedly had

contact with Russian intelligence.


North Korea fired off a new missile and Donald Trump`s National Security

Council is in complete and utter disarray.  That`s next.











JOY REID, NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT:  Well Donald Trump may think that, but

this is what republican Senator John McCain said today about trump.




JOHN MCCAIN, UNITED STATES SENATOR:  I think there is significant

dysfunction in the National Security apparatus of the Trump Administration. 

When you see that you don`t know who`s in charge, this Flynn situation, the

whole environment is one of dysfunction in the Trump Administration.




REID:  General Tony Thomas, meanwhile, head of the Military Special

Operation Command echoed that sentiment today saying this. “Our government

continues to be at unbelievable turmoil.  I hope they sort it out soon

because we`re a nation at war.  As a Commander, I`m concerned our

government be as stable as possible.”


And all that was before tonight`s New York Times report that people inside

the Trump Campaign had contact with members of Russian intelligence.  Not

just the Russian Government as had been previously reported but Russian

Intelligence.  Joining us now Malcolm Nance, MSNBC Counterterrorism and

Intelligence Analyst and Nada Bacos, former CIA Analyst and she was a

member of the team charged with analyzing the relationship between Iraq, Al

Qaeda and 9/11. 


So thank you to both of you   so thank you to both of you.  And Nada, I`ll

start with you on this.  That is the sort of change in the story now is

that we`re finding out the contacts with not just with Russian government

officials but with Russian intelligence. one of the clip in the New York

Times story on what it is that alarmed the people in the intelligence

service is the intercept alarmed American intelligence and law enforcement

agencies in part because the amount of contact that was occurring while MR.

TRUMP was speaking glowingly about Russian president Vladimir Putin.  Does

it seem to you that Donald Trump himself is a subject of this probe?


NADA BACOS, MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR:  I think it`s still to be determined. I

think that`s what an independent investigation would actually help us with,

which I think I agree with your previous guess that this is not to be left

to the political theater.  This is something that we actually need to have

a non-partisan effort for it.


REID:  And Malcolm, one little clip from the New York Times story so that

the National Security Agency which monitors the foreign intelligence

services that got picked up initially captured the communication between

Mr. Trump associates and Russians as part of routine operations.  After

that the FBO asked the NSA to collect as much info as possible about the

Russian operatives on the phone call and to search through troves of

previously intercepted communications that had not been analyzed.  My

question to you Malcolm how could it be possible that Michael Flynn, former

head of DIA, would not know his conversations with the Russian Ambassador

were being monitored?


MALCOLM NANCE, MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR:   Well I think with regard to the

telephone call to Ambassador Kislyak, it was a matter of arrogance. I think

they as – when they took control of, you know, the Whitehouse through the

transition, they didn`t feel that anyone was going to do anything about,

you know, their decision making capacity.  He just made these calls and

thought he was cutting the deals that he was cutting.  But stepping back to

the New York Times article really quickly here because as you know, I

predicted all of this was going to happen seven months ago and that this is

what NSA and the FBI were doing all of this time.  And it comes out to play

because I know I worked at NSA and, you know, this is not just our effort. 


We have allied intelligence agencies that give us cues and tips as to

criminality or potential problems that are going on with American citizens

and that manifested itself as early as last August and September.  This is

very, very serious stuff. T he Pfizer Ward authorized the NSA to turn on

the full collection power of the United States and there is nothing that

will escape that.  These people need to start getting lawyers and cutting

deals because when we have both sides of the conversation, you are going to

get caught.


REID:  And, Nada, Dan Rather, Legendary Journalist Dan Rather Tweeted –

put on his Facebook that Watergate was the biggest political scandal of my

lifetime he says until maybe now with the closest we came to (INAUDIBLE)

constitutional crisis until maybe now.   The Trump Administration believes

that the crisis is that intelligence officials are leaking to the

Washington Post and the New York Times.  But would they be doing that if

they didn`t think there was some sort of a constitutional crisis or a grave

national security crisis?


BACOS:  Well look I think we can`t say where the leaks are coming from.  We

haven`t determined if these anonymous sources are coming from the

intelligence community, if they`re coming from the Whitehouse or where.  So

at this point it`s a little premature to be able to say this is National

Security Intelligence officials actually doing the leaks.  I would also say

that at this point I think President Trump should put out a statement and

clarify some of these issues in addition to the FBI.  If there is an active

investigation going on, I think that`s where an independent commission can

come in and help clarify some of this for American public.


REID:  Yes and I know Democrats are pushing for that now. And we just heard

Elijah Cummings – Congressman Cummings say there may be a few Republicans

getting on board.   There always something strange going on at our House

Malcolm Nance.  And right now off the coast, East Coast of the United

States, CBS and FOX news reporting there is a ship off the Coast of

Delaware, well in international water.  It`s expected to continue north

until it gets to the sub base at New London, Connecticut and turnaround and

head south toward Cuba, a Russian spy ship apparently patrolling off the

East Coast. Alarming?


NANCE:  No.  I wouldn`t say it`s alarming. Russian Intelligence collection

vessels are often off the coast of the United States.  They often go to

places look the ballistic missile submarine bases down in, you know, down

in Kings Bay, Georgia and go all the way up to Groton, Connecticut. 

However, there`s something that should be known here. The deployment of the

vessel happens to coincide with a period of time right after U.S.

Intelligence kicked out 35 signals intelligence collectors from the United

States last December, which involved General Flynn`s phone call. 


There appears that the Russians either advertently or inadvertently may

have a collections gap that they felt was critical and collect it off the

United States Coast and to collect directly from satellite uplinks or

whichever former communications that their going after or the Russians may

be just making a ploy to make it appear that way.   We take that seriously

either way.  So by the deployment of this SSV, this Russia surface

Intelligence Collector Moscow was making their presence known and perhaps

even getting information that they lost.


REID:  And is there a concern, a legitimate concern, Nada, that during the

time that he was National Security Adviser, if General Flynn was a

compromised person, is there a reason to be concerned about the information

he was given?  He had access and was privy to potentially top secret

national security information.


BACOS:  Well, I mean, until we know what his actual nature of the

relationship is, I`m hoping that he continues to be the true intelligence

professional that he used to be and that he wouldn`t put himself in that

type of situation, even inadvertently to hand over any kind of information,

just to be able to secure any kind of information and assure the Russians.


REID:  Yes, all right.  Well that is what I think most Americans are

hoping.  Thank you very much Malcolm Nance and Nada Bacos, appreciate you

both.  And coming up next, new reports say the Republicans have the

Obamacare appeal but the replace that continues to allude them.




REID:  In fighting among Republicans has left the Republican GOP repeal

effort on life support according to Politico. Tonight Senator Lamar

Alexander tells Politico “it`s hard to see how this gets done unless the

President says OK, let`s do it this way.  And the only thing Republicans

got from President Trump today was –




TRUMP:  Repeal of Obamacare is going to be very soon, right?






REID:  Meanwhile the Freedom Caucus is frustrated by the slow pace of

repeal.  And it`s demanding an immediate repeal of the law even if there is

no replacement ready but passing the bill that Republicans sent to

President Obama back in 2015.




JIM JORDAN, UNITED STATES CONGRESSMAN:  If you think about the context

we`re in now.  There are people talking about keeping some of the taxes. 

There`s talk of actually repairing the bill, not repealing and replacing,

repairing as if, you know, implying that there`s something worth fixing

there, something work keeping. So in that frame week, we said let`s at

least keep what we put on Pre Trump`s desk what we put on President Obama`s

desk just a year and half ago after all every one`s already voted for that.




REID:  But Republicans in the Senate are likely to go along with that plan. 

Republican Senator Jeff Flake told Politico today “it`s not realistic. The

imperative is to do it right.”  I don`t think you`ll find much currency for

that approach in the Senate. So what is all these disagreements among

Republicans mean for Obamacare`s future?  Joan Walsh and Catherine Rampell

will join us next.







President Trump`s desk what we put on President Obama`s desk just a year

and a half ago.  After all, everyone`s already voted for that. 




REID:  And joining us now Catherine Rampell, an opinion columnist for the

Washington Post and Joan Walsh the National Affairs Correspondent for the

Nation and an MSNBC political analyst.  All right ladies, listen.  Let`s

keep it real Joan.  When the republicans put that repeal on President

Obama`s desk they didn`t know that they would never have to actually

(INAUDIBLE) it, right? 


JOAN WALSH, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST:  They would never have – it would

never pass, it would never – it would pass, he wouldn`t sign it. 


REID:  Right. 


WALSH:  They would never have to deal with implications of the chaos and

the terror that would it cause.  So, for him to suggest that is I mean –

God bless the freedom caucus, they`re doing what they do but they`re going

to cause so much chaos for the rest of the party. 


REID:  Yes. 


WALSH:  If they keep this up. 


REID:  And if it just a thought experiment, Catherine, if they were to go

ahead and do the amount of repeal they could, you can`t repeal the whole

law without 60 votes, democrats aren`t going to give them the eight votes,

Let`s say they just repealed the taxes and the subsidies.  Do they – have

they though through the republicans what would actually happen if millions

of people lost their insurance. 



realize they might be out of jobs is what it comes down to.  I mean 20

million people have gotten insurance since the affordable care act was



REID:  Yes. 


RAMPELL:  Those people are happy to be insured for the most part. 


REID:  Yes. 


WALSH:  Right. 


RAMPELL:  And, you know, one could imagine that they might exact their

revenge at the ballot box.  There`s some interesting parallels here with

these town halls that we`ve seen recently, right?  That in 2010 there were

a lot of angry voters who came out and said keep your government hands off

my Medicare, don`t you dare mess with the health care system, and I think a

lot of democrats to their peril dismissed all of that and said –



REID:  Right. 


RAMPELL:  And said, it`s all Astroturf, none of its real, none of these

people will come and show up to vote.  And look what happened.  And I think

that you`re seeing the same kinds of offhand dismissals today that are very



REID:  Yes.  And speaking of those town halls, let`s listen to Paul Ryan,

the speaker of the house attempting to address the protest that we`ve seen

over Obamacare, take a look at this. 





recognize and respect the strong feelings that people have about this

issue.  We should be passionate about this issue.  It is about people`s

lives.  This affects every person and every family in America. That is why

we are taking a step-by-step approach, so people can see the changes that

we are making so that they can see how they will help. 




REID:  Joan, maybe I`m a cynic.  Are they taking a step-by-step approach so

people can see the changes they`re making so they (INAUDIBLE) or because

they don`t have any other steps other than repeal? 


WALSH:  I don`t know what they think they`re doing.  They put up these

plans, we got a plan, go to our web site, you go their website it`s just

problem.  They can`t take a step-by-step approach.  The reason this is so

hard is that it really does involve a lot of steps.  And they`re not

willing – if they pull away the tax credits, the subsidies, expanding

Medicaid –


RAMPELL:  The mandate. 


WALSH:  The mandate. 


REID:  Yes. 


WALSH:  It crushes the three legged – the famous three legged stool falls



REID:  Yes. 


WALSH:  I don`t know what they think they`re doing.  They put up these

plans, we got a plan, go to our web site, you go their website it`s just

problem.  They can`t take a step-by-step approach.  The reason this is so

hard is that it really does involve a lot of steps.  And they`re not

willing – if they pull away the tax credits, the subsidies, expanding

Medicaid –


RAMPELL:  The mandate. 


WALSH:  The mandate. 


REID:  Yes. 


WALSH:  It crushes the three legged – the famous three legged stool falls



REID:  Yes. 


WALSH:  So, I don`t know what he`s talking about that we`re going to do

with step by step with transparency.  They`re fighting amongst themselves

and then, you know, you saw Trump kind of needle him but Trump has been an

obstacle, too.  Remember when he came out early on and said, whoa now don`t

do anything rash and then don`t repeal without replacing or this becomes

our problem. 


It`s sort of like, duh, the light bulb went off over his head he`s like

wow.  This becomes Trump care. 


REID:  Right. 


WALSH:  And it could be a real disaster. 


REID:  Yes. 


WALSH:  So, he`s giving them mixed messages –


REID:  Yes. 


WALSH:  – go for it, be cautious.  He doesn`t tell them detail because he

doesn`t – obviously he`s not going to do that. 


REID:  Yes. 


WALSH:  But this is a mess for them. 


REID:  And mean while you have Chris Sununu the governor of New Hampshire

suddenly deciding that he maybe likes the Medicaid expansion a lot more

than he thought he did.  Let`s take a listen. 




CHRIS SUNUNU, GOVERNOR OF NEW HAMPSHIRE:  There`s no doubt it`s been

helpful.  It has a price tag of somewhere between $400 – and $500 million. 

We`ve been able to do it today without a single New Hampshire tax payer

dollar, no state taxes go in to it. 




REID:  You know, Catherine I had a prediction back in the day when people

were screaming about the affordable care act and the Medicaid expansion. 

But as soon as there was no Barack Obama, republicans would learn to really

love all of that money coming in to their states. 


RAMPELL:  Absolutely.  I mean at its very core the issue with Obamacare is

the branding.  It`s not the actual policies.  Down the line almost to a

single provision most of the core things that the law actually does are

quite popular.  They`re somewhere between like popular and beloved by the

American people. 


WALSH:  Yes. 


REID:  Right. 


RAMPELL:  Things like letting you know letting your children stay on your

health care plan until they`re –


REID:  Beloved. 


RAMPELL:  – yes, until they`re age 26, not being able to deny people

insurance based on pre-existing conditions. 


REID:  Yes. 


RAMPELL:  Free money also quite popular for the state at the very least if

not the voters that they don`t exactly understand where the money is coming

from. So the issue for the law was always just that it had – it had a

marketing problem. 


WALSH:  It had an Obama problem. 


RAMPELL:  It had an Obama problem. 


REID:  It was been a lot of people who were like we don`t like Obama, we

don`t like something with his name on it that`s (INAUDIBLE).  All right we

have much more just coming up after the break. 







what I would tell you.  I hate shopping and I`ll get some on myself today. 

It`s a wonderful line, I own some of it.  I fully – I`m going to just give

a – I`m going to give free commercial here.  Go buy it today, everybody. 

You can find it online. 


REID:  So the office of government ethics said that the White House should

take disciplinary action against Kellyanne Conway for those comments that

she made last Thursday on Fox News.  Here`s part of the letter that the OGE

sent to the White House.  Under the present circumstances there were strong

reason to believe that Ms. Conway has violated the standards of conduct and

a disciplinary action is warranted.  We`ll be right back. 




REID:  Joan Walsh and Catherine Rampell are back with us.  And I`ll start

with you Catherine on this.  You know, you have now Kellyanne Conway who

has a credibility problem I guess you could say.  She had a rough morning

on the morning shows, including the Today Show.  How difficult does the

White House`s sort of theatrics make life for republicans on the hill? 


RAMPELL:  I think very difficult not only for republicans on the hill but

within the White House.  There seems to be a lot of jockeying for power

within the White House.  Nobody can quite determine who is in charge.  You

know, there was a piece recently about how Paul Ryan went and met with a

number of staffers at the Whitehouse to talk about tax policy and said

who`s in charge and crickets, right? 


They couldn`t find out who the point person was.  Who was going to be

orienting strategy and that makes it much more difficult for people on the

hill, for their allies, their political allies to actually figure out what

the priorities should be, what tax reform should look like, you know?  And

a lot of other fronts as well what the actual priorities will be and what

the policies will shape up to look like. 


REID:  Well, you know, I am amazed by the extent – is there a tolerance

for pain of republicans like Paul Ryan who are willing to put up with

almost anything, any amount of chaos just to be able to get rid of people`s

health care and privatize Medicare.  It seems that – that`s all that

they`re interested in. 


WALSH:  In fact only two days ago the New York Times had this story about

despite everything they`ve seen, it hadn`t quite gotten as crazy as it has

been for the last two days.  But they are just hanging in there and they

are happy with him.  And maybe he doesn`t say some things that well, but

he`s with our program.  But at this point they`re never going to get – I

shouldn`t say never but they`re not going to get to their program for a



And they`re showing such incredible cowardice when it comes to standing up. 

You talked about it earlier in the show but, you know, Paul Ryan today

says, you know, he did the right thing, I don`t see any need for us to look



REID:  Yes. 


WALSH:  Mitch McConnell says the intelligence committee has it.  They got

subpoena power, we don`t need anything more than that.  They are stepping

away from it like its garbage fire –


REID:  Yes. 


WALSH:  – on their doorstep. 


REID:  Yes. 


WALSH:  But it`s on their doorstep and it`s starting to catch the front

door too. 


REID:  Do think that republicans will come to regret the fact that you now

have Flynn having resigned with no republicans having called for him to be

fired or pushed out? 


RAMPELL:  Well it depends on whether cutting off that limb is enough to

sort of – I`m trying to draw out this metaphor is enough to save the rest

of the body, you know, in a sense.  That maybe Flynn as scapegoat gives the

rest White House some plausible deniability, he acted without our

knowledge, he was the bad actor, it`s not our fault, Trump is not the one

who ordered this conversation about sanctions, et cetera, et cetera.  And

maybe republicans can say look, you know, the disease has been expelled



REID:  Yes.  Right. 


WALSH:  Well they could say that, Catherine, if it was true. 


RAMPELL:  Right, right. 


WALSH:  But I don`t think it`s true. 


RAMPELL:  Yes.  That`s the – but. 


WALSH:  The good news for them is I think they`ll have more opportunities

to step up and call for people`s firings but I don`t know if they have the

courage to do that. 


REID:  Yes, and that`s the thing.  Is that because it`s a political issue? 

Is that because they`re districts strictly in the house side are very

Trumpy or is it – what is it?  What do you think it is? 


WALSH:  I think they`re afraid to get rid of him because I think that they

know that his base is energized.  I think it`s awfully early to talk about

getting rid of him maybe not for me but for them. 


REID:  Not for you and Maxine Waters? 


WALSH:  No, they`re together. 


RAMPELL:  I think the other issue here is that they find that this is the

one opportunity that republicans have –


WALSH:  Right.  All three. 


RAMPELL:  where they have – yes, they have alignment between both houses

of congress –


WALSH:  Yes. 


RAMPELL:  – and the presidency and that may be tenuous. 


WALSH:  They just have to sign the bill. 


RAMPELL:  They may have a congressional election and –


WALSH:  How much came off (INAUDIBLE) to sign the bills, to sign the bills. 


REID:  Catherine Rampell and Joan Walsh, thank you very much.  I`m Joy Reid

in for LAWRENCE O`Donnell.  MSNBC`s live coverage continues in to the 11th

Hour with Brian Williams that`s next.



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