Show: THE LAST WORD WITH LAWRENCE O`DONNELL Date: June 21, 2016 Guest: David Cay Johnston, Cody Cain, Darrell Scott, Michael Farris, David Herszenhorn, David Corn
RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC HOST: Now -- but that does it for us tonight, we will see you again tomorrow. Now, it`s time for THE LAST WORD with Lawrence O`Donnell, good evening Lawrence.
LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, MSNBC HOST: Rachel, you said 10:30 a.m., right?
MADDOW: Ten-thirty a.m. Eastern, sorry --
O`DONNELL: I might miss it.
MADDOW: Yes --
O`DONNELL: I might have to read it. I`ll watch the video.
MADDOW: You know --
(CROSSTALK)
That 10:30 a.m. is sneaking up on us already --
O`DONNELL: Yes --
MADDOW: I know how you feel, yes --
O`DONNELL: Yes, thank you, Rachel.
MADDOW: Thanks, Lawrence.
O`DONNELL: Oh, Donald Trump spent the day trying to convince some religious leaders that he is religious enough to be president.
One of the people in that meeting will join us. And Hillary Clinton`s shortlist for VP is now reportedly down to only three names.
And today, Elizabeth Warren, one of the names on that list helped Hillary Clinton go after Donald Trump on his economic policies.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LESTER HOLT, NBC NEWS HOST: Hillary Clinton is warning Trump would bankrupt America.
HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESUMPTIVE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: Trump would throw us back into recession.
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESUMPTIVE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: I don`t want to be a phony like Hillary Clinton.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The fundraising episode incredibly bad.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ted Cruz has five times as much cash on hand right now as Donald Trump.
CLINTON: He`s written a lot of books about business.
TRUMP: I understand money better than anybody.
CLINTON: They all seem to end at chapter 11.
(LAUGHTER)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re effectively broke.
TRUMP: Hillary Clinton will spend a billion dollars of Wall Street money.
CLINTON: We can`t let him bankrupt America like we are one of his failed casinos.
TRUMP: She`s got money from people that you don`t want her to have money from.
STEPHEN COLBERT, CBS HOST, "THE LATE SHOW": It was all summed up by a source inside the Trump campaign who told "Nbc News", no one knows what is happening.
(LAUGHTER)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Donald Trump questioning Hillary Clinton`s commitment to her faith.
TRUMP: Anything about Hillary Clinton in terms of her religion. Now, she`s been in the public eye for years and years.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She has actually talked a lot about her faith in the past.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s nothing out there. There`s nothing out there.
CONAN O`BRIEN, TBS HOST, "CONAN": A new poll came out, and it claims 25 percent of voters remain undecided. Either undecided on whether to move from Canada or Mexico.
(CHEERS)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: College dropout Rush Limbaugh thinks he understands economics, thinks he understands everything about it.
But he understands as much about economics as he does about organic chemistry or biology or neurology or French or anything else that he didn`t study in school.
In other words, Rush Limbaugh understands nothing about economics like most Americans. Like most Americans, when Rush Limbaugh thinks he`s talking about economics, he`s actually talking about politics.
All tax cuts are good in Rush Limbaugh`s world. That is not economics, that is politics. Rush is not alone in his ignorance, most people in this country know nothing about economics.
But according to polls, most voters seem to think they know plenty enough about economics to decide which presidential candidate has the best ideas for our economy.
And of course, most voters are as wrong about that as they would be about any question about organic chemistry or inorganic chemistry,
Both of which we all admit we know nothing about, except of course pre-med students. Americas endless ignorance about economics has led to Donald Trump`s most favorable polling number in any recent polls, all of which showed him behind Hillary Clinton as a presidential candidate.
But a "Cnn"/ORC poll shows Donald Trump ahead of Hillary Clinton when it comes to the economy on which of course American voters are experts.
Fifty one percent say Donald Trump would better handle the economy and 43 percent say Hillary Clinton would better handle the economy.
And so today, while Donald Trump was trying to convince Republican Christians just how religious he is, Hillary Clinton pressed her case about the economy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CLINTON: One of John McCain`s former economic advisors actually calculated what would happen to our country if Trump gets his way.
He described the results of a Trump recession. We would lose 3.5 million jobs, incomes would stagnate. Debt would explode and stock prices would plummet.
And you know who would be hit the hardest? The people who had the hardest time getting back on their feet after the 2008 crisis.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: Hillary Clinton was referring to a report by "Moody`s Analytics" that analyzed Donald Trump`s economic policies and found, "the economy will be significantly weaker if Mr. Trump`s economic proposals are adopted.
The economy suffers a lengthy recession and a smaller at the end of his four-year term than when he took office.
For the typical American family, Mr. Trump`s policies will mean that their standard of living will effectively go nowhere."
Hillary Clinton also took on Donald Trump`s business record today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CLINTON: Donald Trump has said he is qualified to be president because of his business record. Over the years, he intentionally ran up huge amounts of debt on his companies and then he defaulted.
He bankrupted his companies not once, not twice, but four times. Hundreds of people lost their jobs. He makes over-the-top promises that if people stick with him, trust him, listen to him, put their faith in him, he`ll deliver for them.
He`ll make them wildly successful. And then, everything falls apart, and people get hurt. Those promises you`re hearing from him at his campaign rallies, they are the same promises he made to his customers at Trump University.
We can`t let him bankrupt America like we are one of his failed casinos. We can`t let him roll the dice with our children`s futures.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: Massachusetts Senator Elizabeth Warren said this today about Donald Trump.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN (D), MASSACHUSETTS: Donald Trump is a fraud and a cheapskate and he`s a bully. Where do you pay your taxes? But Donald Trump doesn`t.
If Donald Trump doesn`t even believe in paying his fair share for government, we shouldn`t put him in charge of the government.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: And here is how Donald Trump responded to Hillary Clinton today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How were you going to respond to Clinton? And were average Americans affected in anyway by these bankruptcies?
TRUMP: OK, so what I`ve done is I`ve used brilliantly the laws of the country, and not personally, just corporate.
And if you look at people like myself that are at the highest levels of business, they use -- many of them have done it many times.
They use it also --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But did any average Americans pay the price though for that?
TRUMP: Well, but I`m running a business, you have to understand, I`m running a business. I`m running a business for myself, for my company, for my employees and for my family.
Hillary wouldn`t have any idea how to do that. Don`t forget, somebody has to understand debt, she doesn`t understand debt.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: Joining us now, David Cay Johnston, Pulitzer prize-winning journalist, he`s a columnist for the "Daily Beast".
And Cody Cain, writer and commentator who contributes to "Time.com", "Huffington Post" and Salon.com. David, what does Donald Trump not understand about public debt, about the national debt as opposed to the way he has manipulated debt in his bankruptcies.
DAVID CAY JOHNSTON, JOURNALIST & COLUMNIST, DAILY BEAST: Well, what does he understand I think is the better question, Lawrence.
O`DONNELL: Either way, take it either way.
JOHNSTON: You know, Donald has under oath been asked basic questions about corporate finance, and the answers he gives are as the woman who cuts my haircut said, when I showed her one of them, gibberish.
Donald does not understand at all anything except any device that will bring money into his pocket. And as he himself said, I -- you know, borrowed money knowing I wouldn`t have to pay it back.
I`ve done very well with that. Well, that`s not the way honest business people operate. Honest business people borrow money strategically to grow their business and they pay their debts back.
Like say, Harry Truman did after his business failed during the depression.
O`DONNELL: Cody, Hillary Clinton seized this poll which shows Donald Trump with a lead on that one area, you know, measurement of the economy.
And she goes at it, given that the country is basically illiterate on matters of economics, does it sound better for her to go through the Donald Trump business door and talk about here`s how his businesses went bankrupt or tried to keep it on actual federal fiscal policy?
CODY CAIN, WRITER: Well, she`s off to a good fighting start, and accusing him of filing for bankruptcy. But Hillary needs to do better.
She needs better arguments on this to attack Donald Trump with respect to his business record. So, so far, she`s going after him --
O`DONNELL: What`s the better argument?
CAIN: Well, the better argument is that, just because he is wealthy does not mean he is qualified to be president of the United States.
This is the essence of Donald`s Trump`s appeal. It`s because he is so fabulously wealthy that people just fall into the argument because he is so wealthy, he`s going to do great for the country.
Hillary needs to debunk this. She needs to debunk this idea that just because he`s wealthy, he will be a good president.
That is not the case. And so far, she is not doing a great job at this. She needs to do better, she needs to up her game.
She is attacking Donald Trump for his bankruptcies, right? And this is true. He`s had several companies that filed for bankruptcy, and that is a problem.
But this argument just doesn`t hold water. Because we see that in fact, overall, Trump himself is not bankrupt, Trump actually is successful.
So, he is flying around the country in his jet, we all see it. He`s flaunting his wealth in front of everybody. He`s giving interviews from his fabulous pent house apartment on 5th Avenue, right?
So, we all see it with our own eyes that Trump is super wealthy. Hillary needs to address this head on.
O`DONNELL: Let`s -- take a look at what Hillary Clinton said today about Donald Trump and the products and the jobs in effect that he had shipped overseas with his own products.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CLINTON: Trump`s own products are made in a lot of countries that aren`t named America.
(LAUGHTER)
Trump ties are made in China. Trump suits in Mexico. Trump furniture in Turkey. Trump picture frames in India. Trump barware in Slovenia.
And I could go on and on, but you get the idea. And I`d love for him to explain how all that fits with his talk about America first.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: David, that seems to be something that is pretty accessible to voters. Especially where Donald Trump is talking about this whole issue of jobs going overseas.
JOHNSTON: Well, you know, if I were Hillary, the way I would attack that is, Donald is one of the people moving your jobs offshore.
Why doesn`t he just charge a dollar more for ties and have them made by textile workers here in America? And of course, Donald in these deals just signs his name.
So long as you pay him a fee up front, he`ll do any deal you want. I mean, how many billionaires go around saying, I need to sell neckties with my name on them, steaks, water, picture frames in order to get money?
O`DONNELL: Donald Trump`s defense today on this is that the hats are made in the USA. Let`s listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Trump ties are made in China, the Trump suits in Mexico, Trump furniture in Turkey. Trump barware in Slovenia.
TRUMP: It`s true and you know why? Because they devalue their currencies and they make it impossible for companies to compete.
And she doesn`t have to say that, because I say it all the time. I say, unfortunately, my ties are made in China. And I will say this, the hats, "Make America Great Again", I searched long and hard to find somebody that made the hats in this country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: So, there we have it, Cody, he`s getting the hats made in the USA.
(LAUGHTER)
CAIN: Right, well, this is again, Hillary is off to a good start, a good fighting start about showing how Donald Trump is manufacturing overseas.
This is good, but it`s not quite there. She needs to do better because Trump is going to come back with the argument and say, that is he is a superior businessman.
He understands the business environment and that`s why he is manufacturing overseas. But if you elect him president, he will come along, change the laws and he will make it better for America.
So, Hillary needs to overcome this argument. She needs to do better.
O`DONNELL: Where Hillary Clinton is doing well, she has a lead in the polls, the latest one, "Cnn" polls, she`s at 47, Trump is at 42.
That is actually a tie within the 3.5 percent margin of error. It could be a tie. The numbers could also be 3.5 percent, Hillary could be above 50, Trump could be below 40, margin of error goes both ways.
But in battleground state poll on the question of who is better prepared to be president? Which may be the most important in the general question of all.
Hillary Clinton way ahead, way ahead in Florida, 60-31 in Ohio, 57-33, Pennsylvania, 59-32. David Cay Johnston, that is the essential question that voters will be considering when they cast their vote for the presidency.
And that is just an astronomical lead for Hillary Clinton on that issue of who is better prepared to be president.
JOHNSTON: Well, I think there is a huge opening here that we need to see. We don`t know if they`re going to debate or not.
But if Trump is asked questions where he would have to demonstrate his supposed genius understanding of business, having gone to the Wharton School.
I think the answers he would give would be pretty devastating to his public image based on what he said under oath in depositions.
Donald doesn`t understand taxes, even though he says he knows more about taxes than anybody else. He does not understand trade.
Even the conservative tax foundation says that his tax plan which is pretty sketchy would lead to $12 trillion of larger federal debt over the next 10 years -- $12 trillion.
O`DONNELL: Well, if David Cay Johnston was a questioner in one of these presidential debates, I`m sure Donald Trump would have a rough ride, but that`s not who gets to do it.
David Cay Johnston and Cody Cain, thank you both for joining us tonight, really appreciate it --
JOHNSTON: Thank you, Lawrence.
O`DONNELL: Coming up, Donald Trump tried to win over some Christian conservatives today. And one way he tried was to question whether Hillary Clinton has any religious beliefs at all.
Someone who was in that meeting will join us. And Republicans have another reason to be worried about Donald Trump`s campaign.
His -- the complete bankruptcy right now of the campaign treasury. Unlike anything we`ve ever seen in a nominee at this point. And the VP stakes for Hillary Clinton.
When was the last time a Democratic nominee did not pick a United States Senator as a running mate? Hillary Clinton`s shortlist is coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O`DONNELL: Danny Radcliffe told Seth Meyers last night about meeting Donald Trump on his first trip to New York City.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DANNY RADCLIFFE, ACTOR: I was doing the "Today Show" and I was like really nervous, 10 or 11 years old, and like never been on live TV before, and just terrified.
And they said -- and he was a guest on it, and presumably, somebody went up to him, he was like, you want to meet the kid that plays Harry Potter.
And he was like, yes, he was like how are you? And I was -- I`m really nervous. I don`t know what I`m going to talk about on the show, and he just said, you just tell them you met Mr. Trump.
(LAUGHTER)
Which I was just like -- I -- to this day, I`m like -- I can`t even relate to that level of confidence.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: Any shrink will tell you, that`s not confidence, that`s insecurity. Up next, the religious leader who says that Donald Trump`s meeting with Christian Republicans today should be a day of mourning for the religious right.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O`DONNELL: In a country with a rather strict constitutional separation of church and state, it should be surprising how often presidential campaigns emphasize religion.
But it isn`t surprising. The political media is not only not surprised, the political media encourages the use of religion in campaigns.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just this weekend, there was an article I read in the "Detroit News", saying that you keep your Judaism in the background and that`s disappointing some Jewish leaders.
Is that intentional?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: Republican politicians became noticeably more religious publicly in a way, beginning in 1980 when a group calling itself the Moral Majority was formed.
The Moral Majority gave birth to what became known as the Christian Right in American politics, and Republican politicians realized they would need ever stronger public professions of Christian religious faith in order to win the support of the Christian Right.
Democratic politicians eventually took to public professions of their faith as eagerly and frequently as Republicans.
Of course, faith, can never be proved. And so, the religious right had in effect created a religious political game that anyone could play, including an atheist.
All you have to do is say what the candidates always say about God and religion, and you`ll be OK. No one will know if you secretly don`t believe it.
There`s no way of testing it. It`s not like asking a presidential candidate how much he or she has paid in taxes. Their answers can be proven just by looking at their tax returns which they all make public except Donald Trump.
With Donald Trump, the truth is harder to find than with any other presidential candidate that we`ve ever seen.
Donald Trump`s public professions of religion are the most hollow we`ve ever heard from a presidential candidate.
Every other candidate we`ve heard from is either truly religious or at least has done enough homework to know how to sound religious.
Today, in Manhattan, Donald Trump met with some leaders of the Christian Right, he told them lies to their faces and they applauded.
He spoke of "freeing up your religion, freeing up your thoughts. You talk about religious liberty and religious freedom, you don`t have any religious freedom."
If you think about it, Donald Trump told religious leaders in the country with more religious freedom than any in the world, "you don`t have any religious freedom."
He also tried to suggest Hillary Clinton doesn`t have any religion.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Anything about Hillary in terms of religion. Because she`s been in the public eye for years and years, and yet, there`s no -- there`s nothing out there. There`s like nothing out there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: Michael Farris attended the very first meeting of the Moral Majority in Indianapolis in February, 1980. He has been active in the Christian Right ever since.
He was not invited to today`s meeting, because he has not been supportive of Donald Trump. Today, Michael Farris wrote "this meeting marks the end of the Christian Right." He said, Donald Trump is "a candidate whose world view is greed and whose god is his appetites."
The meeting was attended by James Dodson(ph), Ralph Reed(ph), Franklin Graham, the son of Billy Graham. Michael Farris wrote today that attending the meeting meant choosing politics over religion.
"They are saying we are Republicans no matter what the candidate believes and no matter how vile and unrepentant his character.
They are not a failings of God`s prophets confronting a wicked leader. This is a parade of elephants. In 1980, I believed that Christians could dramatically influence politics, today, we see politics fully influencing a thousand Christian leaders.
This is a day of mourning." Michael Ferris(ph) joins us now by telephone, and also with us in the studio here in New York, Pastor Darrell Scott, he attended two meetings with Donald Trump today.
He`s also the CEO of the National Diversity Coalition for Trump. Pastor Scott, what is your reaction to Michael Ferris(ph) mourning over this meeting that you had today.
DARRELL SCOTT, REVEREND MINISTER & CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER, NATIONAL DIVERSITY COALITION FOR TRUMP: Well, I think Michael Ferris`(ph) reaction is an overreaction. There was simply a question and answer session with the presidential candidate.
And to say this was a day of mourning -- the incident in Orlando was a day of mourning.
The incident in San Bernardino was a day of mourning, 9/11 was a day of mourning. This was simply a day of an exchange of ideas and an intercourse of dialogue.
I think he`s overreacting with that --
O`DONNELL: Do you share Donald Trump`s apparent doubt that Hillary Clinton is a religious person?
SCOTT: He didn`t necessarily question her religion.
O`DONNELL: What did he mean? That thing that we heard him say, what did you think he meant?
SCOTT: What he was saying was he --
O`DONNELL: We heard the words, tell me what you thought --
SCOTT: He --
O`DONNELL: He meant.
SCOTT: Doesn`t know what her religion is.
O`DONNELL: But she said it publicly.
SCOTT: What did she say?
O`DONNELL: Let`s play it. Let`s -- we have it in the control room, go ahead.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CLINTON: I am a person of faith. I am a Christian. I am a Methodist. I have been raised Methodist. I feel very grateful for the instructions and support I received starting in my family but through my church.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: Michael Ferris(ph), apparently for people like Pastor Scott here, there is nothing Hillary Clinton can say about religion that they will ever hear.
MICHAEL FARRIS, CHANCELLOR, PATRICK HENRY COLLEGE (via telephone): Well, that`s probably true to some degree. You have to take people at their -- at face value.
She said she`s a Methodist who has that Christian tradition, I accepted it face value. What I am concerned with is two things.
Is do they have in their political world the same kind of political views that derive from a Biblical world view? And do they have moral character.
And Donald Trump which has been my focus hasn`t either. He doesn`t understand the issues that have motivated the Christians like me to get involved in politics.
And he simply doesn`t have character. Regardless of what he professes about his personal faith. You know, like you said, that`s fairly easy to fake one way or the other.
But what I really want to know is does he have the character to go with it? What has he done on paying back his debts?
What has he done on making fun of his neighbor? And the Bible says that we love our neighbors as ourselves. Making fun of disabled people for example is not loving our neighbor as ourselves.
And so, there are so many ways that his character falls woefully short, not just to mention his sexual bravado with all the things that he`s done in that area.
That`s small paid potatoes compared to the living immorality that he`s exhibiting for us every day in this campaign.
O`DONNELL: Darrell Scott, what`s your response to that?
SCOTT: My response is that, first of all, world views evolve over time. World views often times are affected by the variables of our society.
World views evolve, character develops. And when you find yourself at a certain stages or junctures in life, you become more reflective, and you become more introspective.
And we can`t say that because a person was a certain way, that a person was always going to be that way. He being a biblical man, we should all know from the example of the Apostle Paul that he lived his life one way, then he began to live his life another way.
There`s a void that Donald Trump seeks to fill. It`s not a void that seeks to be filled by power, it`s a void that seeks to be filled by the legacy that he`s going to leave and his desire to benefit his fellow man.
That`s what his genuine desire is. And for him to say, he has a world view of greed, and we live in a capitalistic society. Then that is the microcosm of American society as a whole.
We are capitalistic society, everyone in our American culture has a capitalistic lifestyle. So, you know, the socialist and the communist say that is a lifestyle that is -- than greed.
We can`t say --
(CROSSTALK)
O`DONNELL: Michael Farris, Darrell Scott apparently believes that all Americans are driven by greed.
SCOTT: To some extent, yes --
FARRIS: Well, I hate to disagree with him. I believe in the free enterprise system, that`s a great system. I`m not a socialist, I`m not a communist in any respect.
But there`s a big difference between believing in opportunity and acquiring property and other things than greed.
SCOTT: No --
FARRIS: Greed is taking advantage of people. Greed is seeking money for its own sake. Greed is borrowing money you never intend to pay back.
Greed is re-entering into business contracts and breaking them time after time after time, so you gain over somebody else`s loss.
I am -- and that`s not what the Bible teaches, that`s not what this country was founded upon. That`s not the kind of free enterprise our founders thought we were -- we were making.
It`s just simply --
SCOTT: But --
O`DONNELL: Darrell Scott, hold it. You`re supporting a candidate who is facing fraud charges from coast-to-coast, from New York to California.
And those fraud charges are based indeed on greed, on gain that he was trying to --
SCOTT: First of all --
O`DONNELL: Yes --
SCOTT: Greed once again is a subjective term. And he can`t talk about what our country was founded upon --
O`DONNELL: Fraud is not subjective, it`s legal, he`s charged with --
(CROSSTALK)
SCOTT: Fraud is subjective, but greed is a subjective term --
O`DONNELL: What do you think --
(CROSSTALK)
SCOTT: Hold it, hold it --
O`DONNELL: Does the fraud charges bother --
SCOTT: I want to address -- it`s an accusation. I want to address something he said. He said our country was founded -- he`s acting as if this country was not founded upon greed and our founding fathers owned slaves.
What are you talking about? So, let`s not try to act as if our founding fathers were saints with halos on their heads. They founded our country on moral values and principles that we have developed from.
That`s not the truth at all. Our founding father Thomas Jefferson was a slave owner. So, we can`t say that first of all.
And second of all, anyone who has had any type of entrepreneurial suit and anyone that has been in business, being sued is a regular part of this --
O`DONNEL: No it is not. Stop.
SCOTT: Yes, it is.
O`DONNELL: No, it is not.
SCOTT: I have walked in to brother, Christian --
O`DONNELL: It is not. It is not.
SCOTT: And it is more -- I have seen more than any companies --
O`DONNELL: Most business are never sued.
SCOTT: -- his suit is regular --
O`DONNELL: Stop.
SCOTT: When you have major business --
O`DONNELL: Stop it. That is nonsensical.
MICHAEL FARRIS, CHANCELLOR, PATRICK HENRY COLLEGE: Yes.
O`DONNELL: Michael, I want to ask you --
SCOTT: Most businesses have been sued multiple times.
O`DONNELL: Michael, most -- Look, understand this.
SCOTT: A number of large corporations --
O`DONNELL: You live in the country where most business are never --
SCOTT: Maybe small -- large corporations are sued on a regular basis.
O`DONNELL: Stop. Stop it.
SCOTT: You stop. You stop.
O`DONNELL: Michael, I want to ask you about this point that you made at the end of your piece. OK? Which is, "Today, we see politics fully influencing a thousand Christian leaders."
At the beginning in your involvement in this 1980, you were hoping that Christians could influence politics, and now you see it reversed, so that politics are influencing the Christian leaders.
Do you regret what has become of this movement into politics and now that you can look at it over decades, might it have been better for religious leaders to simply stay on the sidelines?
FARRIS: Well, I regret where it has gone, that is for sure. I believe that the movement was well intentioned, especially at the grass roots level. And I think that a lot of good things did happen. For one thing, the number of people in churches that is simply vote now is higher.
And so, it is always good when more people vote and vote according to principles and issues that they believe in. So I think a lot of good has come from it. But it has been twist and perverted in my view point. In some circles, and nothing like this election has twisted and perverted it more than all the shenanigans we are seeing.
I mean when you see a defense of greed, the bible preaches against greed multiple times. It is listed in Mark 7, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander. Those are things we all supposed to avoid.
And Donald Trump stands up, and says that he is greedy. And we have a pastor that is saying, "I support Donald Trump. America is built on greed." I am going to agree with that. I think we are built on freedom. I think we are built on winning the government. I think we are built on some really good principles and --
SCOTT: I am built on capitalism.
O`DONNELL: OK. Pastor Scott, I will give you "The Last Word" on this. And let us agree that big business litigation is very common.
SCOTT: That is all I say. Big businesses. You are absolutely right.
O`DONNELL: In small businesses and most business in America is not common. OK.
SCOTT: I believe it is more common than people think.
O`DONNELL: Let us just go out on this religious question, which is Michael Farris has just pointed out that greed is a sin -- I believe, in your own religious beliefs? Do you believe that greed is a sin?
SCOTT: Greed is a sin. Gluttony is a sin. Over eating is a sin. Coveting is a sin. There are numbers of sins. There are overt sins. There are covert sins.
O`DONNELL: But greed is the sin that you approved of in the presidential candidate?
SCOTT: No. I do not approve of it.
O`DONNELL: You just did.
SCOTT: No.
O`DONNELL: You approved the greed, now you are saying it is a sin.
SCOTT: I did not approve of greed. I approved of capitalism.
O`DONNELL: And now you are saying they are the same thing.
SCOTT: Any business --
O`DONNELL: Is it the same word, capitalism and greed?
SCOTT: Capitalism is based upon the acquisition of more.
O`DONNELL: Is capitalism the same as greed?
SCOTT: In some respects.
O`DONNELL: So capitalism is a sin?
SCOTT: Capitalism can become greed.
O`DONNELL: So capitalism is a sin.
SCOTT: Capitalism can become greed.
O`DONNELL: You religion says capitalism is a sin?
SCOTT: The bible said to do all things in moderation. Any inordinate affection for anything can become a sin.
O`DONNELL: Pastor Darrell Scott, the champion of greed in America, is that the way you want to leave it?
SCOTT: Is that the way you want to leave it?
O`DONNELL: You told me that you support greed in Donald Trump?
SCOTT: I did not say you that.
O`DONNELL: You then told me that greed is capitalism.
SCOTT: You are doing -- lying is a sin as well. You just lied in my face, because I did not tell you that. I said greed is root -- capitalism is based upon greed.
O`DONNELL: You approved of Donald Trump`s greed. You say it is the same word.
SCOTT: I agree with Donald Trump`s capitalism. That is what I said.
O`DONNELL: Michael Farris, thank you --
SCOTT: Let me ask you a question. Do you work for free?
O`DONNELL: No. We are done. We are done.
SCOTT: Do you work for free? Are you working here for free?
O`DONNELL: We are done.
SCOTT: Then you are a greedy man.
O`DONNELL: Greed is not a sin, you agreed on it.
SCOTT: You are a greedy man. Do you want a bigger paycheck? Do you think you are paid enough?
O`DONNELL: We are going to have to stop.
SCOTT: Yes, we do need to stop. You need to stop.
O`DONNELL: Darrell Scott, Michael Farris, thank you very much for your thoughtful comments today that got this discussion started here tonight. Darrell Scott, thank you for joining us.
Up next, Donald Trump, the candidate of greed, has less money on hand in his campaign than any other campaign we have ever seen at this point in presidential campaigning.
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O`DONNELL: Hillary Clinton`s campaign has more than 30 times as much cash on hand as Donald Trump`s campaign. According to the campaign`s latest filings, which will come as no surprise to longtime viewers of this program, who haves known since 2011, that Donald Trump cannot possibly afford to self-finance a real presidential campaign.
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O`DONNELL: He is an ignoramus about government and could not afford to pay for a presidential campaign.
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O`DONNELL: The Trump campaign is basically bankrupt tonight with less cash on hand than any major party nominee has ever had at this stage with the campaign and less cash than Bernie Sanders, Ted Cruz or Ben Carson`s presidential campaign have right now.
When asked on the "Today" show this morning, why his campaign is nearly bankrupt, he decided not to admit that he is simply not rich enough to pay for a presidential campaign and instead of admitting that painful truth, Donald Trump put a bunch of words where the answer was supposed to be.
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DONALD TRUMP, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: OK, let me just tell you this. I understand money better than anybody. I understand it far better than Hillary. But we have a party that I mean, I am having more difficulty frankly with some of the people in the party than I am with the democrats, because they are just -- they do not want to come on.
They will, probably, eventually come on. Honestly, if they do not, it is just fine. I can win it either way. I mean, I may be better off winning it the opposite way than the more traditional way.
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O`DONNELL: Coming up, finally, a republican senator is trying to find a compromise for a gun bill that some of her republican colleagues might be able to support. And of course, the NRA already opposes it.
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O`DONNELL: Brenda Lee Marquez-McCool`s funeral was yesterday. One of Brenda`s 11 children, Isaiah was with her at the Pulse nightclub in Orlando. When gunfire erupted, they started running. Brenda was shot in the back. Isaiah spoke at her funeral.
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ISAIAH HENDERSON, SON OF BRENDA MCCOOL: I never thought that her life would be ended in front of my eyes. Everybody who knew my mom knew she was the mom everybody wanted. She always took everybody in with open arms. She loved everybody equally. No matter what.
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O`DONNELL: Tonight, Republican Susan Collins of Maine is trying to drag her party to a compromise with senate democrats on gun control legislation.
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SEN. SUSAN COLLINS, (R) MAINE: We want to make America safer. Surely, the terrorist attacks in San Bernardino and in Orlando, that took so many lives are a call for compromise, a plea for bipartisan action.
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O`DONNELL: Four republicans are working with four democrats on a bill that would stop people on the "No Fly" and on the "Selectee List" from buying guns. The compromise would center on remedies available to people who believe their names have been put on those lists without justification.
Just tonight, Senator Chris Murphy`s office gave the last word, this statement about the bill. Quote, "I am encouraged by the compromised negotiations, the devil is in the details. I want to make sure that anything we passed would not allow suspecting terrorists to get weapons, but it is good news and it never would have happened have we not protested last week the planned silence on this issue.
That is of course Senator Murphy who led the filibuster on this last week. nasht murphy. Joining us now David Herszenhorn, congressional reporter for "The New York Times."
DAVID HERSZENHORN, REPORTER, NEW YORK TIMES: Well, Lawrence, as you said, negotiations have generated a compromise proposal. Senator Collins working most closely with Senator Hetkamp, democrat from North Dakota. And now what we seeing is a situation, where there is an appropriations bill on the floor.
The Majority Leader Mitch McConnell has said he will work to get vote on Senator Collins` amendment. That could happen as soon as Thursday. It might take longer into next week. But basically, what we are waiting now is for that proposal to get a vote.
O`DONNELL: And so what does the vote count look like on a bill like this?
HERSZENHORN: Well, it is still really tough. She needs to bring along at least 14 other republicans. That is if they can hold all the democrats, which they probably will not able to do. So, it is looking like a tough climb for Senator Collins. She he had, as you said, four or three other republican colleagues with her at a news conference today.
Some democrats are likely to break off. This is a heavy lift for them to go along and be willing to give the republicans even a small accomplishment when it comes to this issue of gun control.
O`DONNELL: So is it possible that some of democrats that would not go along with this, would be on the left side of the party is it the democrats who are in more pro-gun states who would not vote for this?
HERSZENHORN: It could be either way. I mean, most likely we would see some folks who think that this does not go far enough. Senator Chuck Schumer of New York expected to become the democratic leader next year, who was saying, "Look, there are loop holes," he was calling it, that would allow hundreds of thousands of foreigners who are uncertain the government watch list to potentially buy guns.
It is not clear that, that is the case. Chris Murphy, as you heard in the statement you read, saying that devil is in the details. The democrats are very reluctant both to trust republicans on this issue, and to give them much credibility here.
So again, we have to wait and see exactly how this plays out, whether they are willing to take any suggestions and changes, see when Senator McConnell is able to get it onto the floor and if she is able to pull together, to cobble together the 60 votes needed to move it forward.
O`DONNELL: Let us listen to what the Senator Tim Kaine of Virginia said about this.
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SEN. TIM KAINE, (D) VIRGINIA: I am sick of the vigils. I am sick of the homicide victim support groups. I am sick of the claims that we will do something about it. I am sick of the partisan rhetoric and I am really sick of getting to the end of all of it, and not doing something about it and seeing that happen again and again and again and again. We got to make progress and to make progress, we have to do it in a bipartisan fashion.
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O`DONNELL: And David that is where the moderate democrats in the senate.
HERSZENHORN: Well, certainly, a powerful statement coming from Senator Kaine, who speculated quite a lot these days as a potential running mate for Hillary Clinton. Somebody who has been very prominent in the party, a former governor.
And he talked in that in very same stretch emotionally about the Virginia tech shooting in 2007, when 32 students and faculty members were killed; how much Virginia suffered at that point and expected there would be some action and there was not.
That frustration that you heard from Senator Kaine was echoed by senators in each party. Really, a deep exasperation over the inability to come together in some way and respond, take action, after tragedies like Orlando.
O`DONNELL: David Herszenhorn, thank you very much for joining us. I appreciate it.
HERSZENHORN: You are welcome.
O`DONNELL: Coming up, a new report says that Hillary Clinton`s V.P. list is really short. It is just down to three. That is next.
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O`DONNELL: Hillary Clintn`s short list of candidates for vice president is reportedly about as short as it can get. Tonight, the Associated Press reports that it is down to three. The names on that list includes Senator Elizabeth Warren, also Virginia Senator Tim Kaine, and Housing and Urban Development Secretary, Julian Castro of Texas. Hillary Clinton said this about selecting a running mate.
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HILLARY CLINTON, (D) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I am looking at the most qualified people, and that includes women, of course, because I want to be sure whoever I pick could be president immediately if something were to happen. That is the most important qualification.
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O`DONNELL: Joining us now, David Corn, MSNBC Political Analyst and Washington Bureau Chief for Mother Jones. David, do you buy it that it is down to three?
DAVID CORN, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, if not three -- it may be a soft three. OK? Maybe three, one or two, so hang in there.
O`DONNELL: So Sherrod Brown might be hanging in there at four or five or something?
CORN: It could. I mean --
O`DONNELL: Who do you think is still in play? Who is not on that list?
CORN: I do not know. But Sara out in California, perhaps. You mentioned Sherrod Brown. The obvious choices seem to be obvious. And often, they are not the worst pool to pick from. And I have long been a fan of the first do no harm rule in taking a vice president.
I tend to think that by and large, they do not make a big difference in terms of outcomes. Do they win states? Maybe once in a great while, but I do think most of voters focus on the top of the ticket, particularly, this time around when you have two big, bold-faced names, Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump. I am not sure anybody below them will do much persuading or repelling.
O`DONNELL: You know, we look at the list today. Democrats love to pick senators. Geraldine Ferraro was the last non-senator to be picked by a democrat to run as VP. That was 1984.
And of course, before her, it was a bunch of senators including LBJ, the majority leader of the senate. There has never been a senator that has turned it down. They are all here to take it.
CORN: I know and I was just doing the math too. I mean, Geraldine Ferraro was picked because Mondale wanted a woman on the ticket, and I do not think there are already democrat female senators at the time.
O`DONNELL: Right.
CORN: So he went to the house and you know, house candidates have tended not to do well on national tickets, even primaries.
O`DONNELL: And that raises the question of Julian Castro, who has never won a state wide race.
CORN: Yes.
O`DONNELL: And so that is one of the raps against people who have been mayors, or just house members And that is one of the attractions to senators that they at least won state wide races.
CORN: And I think they have a familiarity, usually with a broad range of issues, certainly with national security issues and economic issues, and let us not to take anything away from Secretary Castro, which is really smart, and I think, a pretty decent fellow.
I have had the pleasure to spend a little time with him. But if you are a senator, you tend to know how to talk the talk, when it comes to bunch of hot button issues, and you had to campaign on those issues as well.
As you say on a larger platform for a state. So you are picking somebody, If you are a presidential candidate, who you right away know, you do not have to bring up to speed on some key matters.
O`DONNELL: And David, in Massachusetts, if she chooses Elizabeth Warren, the republican governor would get to appoint. But then there is a procedure in place for a fairly quick special election that they have to run there to fill that seat more permanently. The democrats probably, would be OK with that.
CORN: Probably. I mean this is one concern that you have if you pick a senator, you lose that seat, and you do not want it to flip. Right now, the democrats have a decent shot at winning back the senate.
They need to flip four seats, but there are 24 senators up for election, who are republicans, and only ten who are democrats, and seven of the 24 republicans come from states that Obama won. So democrats think they have a real strong chance. They do not want to lose it, because they pick one of their own to be vice president. -
O`DONNELL: David Corn, we only have a few more weeks of playing the VP game here on this show.
CORN: Maybe.
O`DONNELL: So thank you for joining us for tonight`s episode.
CORN: OK. Thank you, Lawrence.
O`DONNELL: Chris Hayes is up next.
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