The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell, Transcript 5/31/2016

Guests:
Gary Johnson, William Weld, Howard Dean, Clara Bingham, Jon Favreau, Benjamin Rosenberg, Howard Dean, David Fahrenthold, Alexander McCoy
Transcript:

Show: THE LAST WORD WITH LAWRENCE O`DONNELL

Date: May 31, 2016

Guest: Gary Johnson, William Weld, Howard Dean, Clara Bingham, Jon 

Favreau, Benjamin Rosenberg, Howard Dean, David Fahrenthold, Alexander 

McCoy

LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, MSNBC HOST: So, what do you do when you are facing 

fraud charges in courts from coast to coast. 

And the press questions whether you told the truth about the money that you 

say you raised for veterans groups. 

Well, if you`re Donald Trump, you act shocked, just absolutely shocked that 

anyone could ever question your integrity. 

And of course because you are Donald Trump, you defend your integrity the 

only way you know how by telling lies.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) 

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE:  You are a sleaze. 

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  Or counting down the insults here – 

TRUMP:  Are you ready? Do you have your pen? The press should be ashamed of 

themselves. 

HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE:  They took a reporter to 

shamed him into actually making his contributions.

TRUMP:  I have never received such bad publicity for doing such a good job. 

ALEXANDER MCCOY, VETERAN:  Stop using veterans as political props. 

TRUMP:  Instead of being like, thank you very much Mr. Trump or Trump did a 

good job, you make me look very bad. 

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  Do you need a thicker skin to run for this office? 

TRUMP:  No, I think that is bothersome because I love the vets – 

(CROSSTALK) 

But you know what?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  You`re raising money for veterans –  

TRUMP:  Excuse me, I`ve watched you on television, you are a real beauty.  

CLINTON:  The problem here is the difference between what Donald Trump says 

and what Donald Trump does. 

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY), MAJORITY LEADER:  He`s appealed to a lot of 

voters. 

TRUMP:  The Republican Party is really well unified. 

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  Bill Kristol put out a tweet, promising there will be 

an independent candidate. 

TRUMP:  Wait, Bill Kristol is a loser.  

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  We now actually have a viable third party ticket, so, 

you know, Don.  

TRUMP:  I think it`s not going to be a factor.

MCCONNELL:  But I think the White House is about more than just 

entertaining a large audience. 

TRUMP:  You think I`m going to change? I`m not changing. 

(END VIDEO CLIP) 

O`DONNELL:  So, today, the only Republican presidential nominee in history 

who while campaigning is facing fraud charges in New York and California.

One in a case, but brought by the New York State Attorney General and the 

other in a class action suit on behalf of students who say they were 

defrauded by Donald Trump`s Trump University.

Which of course was not a university.  The only presidential candidate in 

history facing coast-to-coast fraud charges acted shocked today.

But we all don`t just take his word for it when he talks about money that 

he says he has raised for and contributed to veterans groups.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) 

TRUMP:  I wanted to keep it private.  If we could, I wanted to keep it 

private.  Because I don`t think it`s anybody`s business if I want to send 

money to the vets.  

(END VIDEO CLIP) 

O`DONNELL:  That`s how Donald Trump began talking about this today, and 

that is why he has repeatedly being diagnosed by his campaign opponents and 

psychiatrist experts as a pathological liar.

A pathological liar will tell you a lie to your face that he knows you know 

is a lie.  Think about that. 

He knows he`s not getting away with the lie, he knows you know he`s lying.  

He knows you`re watching him lie in that moment, but he simply cannot 

resist lying. 

Even when he knows that you know the truth, that`s what makes it 

pathological.  It`s not just lying. 

Liars who are not sick in the head only try to get away with lying when 

they think there`s no way you can catch them in a lie.

Here`s the guy who just said I wanted to keep it private.  Here he is back 

when he wanted to keep it private on January 28th when he skipped the “Fox 

News” debate because he was afraid of getting Megyn Kelly questions.

And he held what he called a fundraiser, a public fundraiser on TV for 

veterans.  Here is how private he tried to keep it. 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) 

TRUMP:  I called some friends, and we just cracked – the sign was just 

given, we just cracked $6 million, right? 

(APPLAUSE) 

Six million.  Donald Trump gave $1 million, OK.

(CHEERS) 

(END VIDEO CLIP) 

O`DONNELL:  Only a very sick person could stand in front of a microphone on 

national television and say that on January 28th.

Brag about raising $6 million, and brag about contributing a million 

dollars himself, both of which were untrue.

And then today, say this. 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) 

TRUMP:  I wanted to keep it private.  If we could, I wanted to keep it 

private.  Because I don`t think it`s anybody`s business if I want to send 

money to the vets.

(END VIDEO CLIP) 

O`DONNELL:  That`s such a profound pathological lie that I wanted you to 

see it again.  Pathological lying was first diagnosed and described by a 

German physician in 1891. 

Most politicians fear getting caught in a lie, but Donald Trump has no such 

fear.  Pathological liars do not fear getting caught lying, they are 

incapable of telling the truth. 

And they are, of course, outraged, and I mean, outraged when you don`t 

believe them.  

The truth is that Donald Trump`s press conference today meant to clear the 

air about his failure to raise $6 million for veterans groups and his 

personal failure to donate a million dollars that he already said he had 

contributed on January 28th.

That press conference did not actually reveal the truth about any of that.  

Donald Trump provided no proof at all of any contributions.

He provided simply a list of groups that he says received contributions, 

but proof would be showing us cashed checks which he did not do. 

But he did find time to say this about the man who`s been trying to find a 

Republican to mount a third party challenge to Donald Trump. 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) 

TRUMP:  Bill Kristol is a loser.  His magazine is failing, as you know, 

it`s going to be down – I don`t think it even survives. 

He is trying to drive you guys a little bit nuts, if they do in Indy, 

assuming it`s decent which I don`t think anybody with a reputation would do 

it because they`d look like fools. 

But what you`re going to do is you lose the election for the Republicans, 

and therefore, you lose the Supreme Court. 

(END VIDEO CLIP) 

O`DONNELL:  Joining us now Ben Ginsberg, a political analyst for Msnbc, and 

a partner at Jones Day, the law firm that represents Donald Trump and his 

campaign.

Ben specializes in election law.  Howard Dean is a former governor of 

Vermont, former DNC Chairman and a Hillary Clinton supporter.

He`s also an Msnbc political analyst.  And Jon Favreau; former speechwriter 

for President Obama and a partner at Fenway Strategies.

And Jon, since you`re out there across the country tonight, not in the 

studio.  I wanted to start with you, and also – 

JON FAVREAU, FORMER SPEECHWRITER FOR PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA & PARTNER, 

FENWAY STRATEGIES:  Sure – 

O`DONNELL:  Also because, you as part of the Obama speechwriting team have 

been a co-author to some of the most eloquent and thoughtful American 

political speeches of our time.

And so, I want to begin with your analysis of the Donald Trump press 

conference today and what it was we were watching. 

FAVREAU:  Yes, well, I mean, I think we saw the man-child running for 

president throw a temper tantrum, which is what he does when someone tries 

to expose that he is a pathological liar.

And what he does is he attacks people, and he targets people, he targets 

the press, he targets federal judges.

And I think the difference is right now, he is targeting people with his 

big mouth and his Twitter account. 

But what happens if he becomes president? And he has at his disposal the 

FBI, the CIA, the IRS, and America`s nuclear arsenal, right?

Like, this is a man who is going to take people`s press credentials away, 

he`s threatening to open up libel laws, so people can sue the media. 

I mean, it is entertaining to watch now, but when you give this guy power, 

and he throws temper tantrums like this, and is exposed as a liar, I think 

it`s very dangerous. 

O`DONNELL:  Let`s listen to the moment where he called Tom Llamas of “Abc 

News” a sleaze.  Let`s listen to this moment. 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) 

TRUMP:  I`m not looking for credit.  But what I don`t want is when I raise 

millions of dollars, have people say, like this sleazy guy right over here 

from “Abc”, he`s a sleaze in my book.

You`re a sleaze because you know the facts and you know the facts well. 

(END VIDEO CLIP) 

O`DONNELL:  So, Ben, the Republican nominee for president has defined what 

a sleaze is. 

That is someone who knows the facts, knows the facts well and then 

apparently lies about it. 

The first line of that statement is him saying, I`m not looking for credit 

which we all know is a pathological lie.

BENJAMIN ROSENBERG, LAWYER:  Doctor –  

O`DONNELL:  So, do we now have Donald Trump diagnosed as both a 

pathological liar and by his own definition a sleaze? 

ROSENBERG:  It`s a pleasure to be with you Dr. O`Donnell.  

(LAUGHTER) 

So, this is an unusual campaign, we can stipulate to that. 

O`DONNELL:  Howard, the guy goes out there, and you know, he picks on a 

couple of reporters, two of the reporters he picks on, Hispanic last names.  

And the one he goes after most viciously, Tom Llamas, Hispanic last name.  

And this is someone who is theoretically supposed to appeal to voters other 

than white men.

HOWARD DEAN, FORMER VERMONT GOVERNOR:  This is a fascinating campaign and 

people have said that Trump is – you know, is it within two points or 

something or four points nationally? Whatever it is.

But the most interesting thing about this is, the game has already begun 

even though the Democratic nomination is still being contested.

I think obviously Hillary is going to win.  But – and they`re already 

appealing to their bases and turning off – Donald Trump is already 

appealing to his base, but he`s turning off the middle.   

And this election like most American presidential elections is going to be 

decided by the 15 million voters that are in the middle. 

Everybody else already spoken for.  The Republican Party has already come 

together and consolidated around Trump for the most part despite Bill 

Kristol`s efforts.

And you know that from looking at the polls.  We haven`t done that yet at 

the Democratic side, but we will.

And when we do, we`ll be fighting over 15 million voters.  Every day that 

he does this, doesn`t help him with those 15 million voters. 

O`DONNELL:  Yes, so today in Donald Trump`s mind, it was all about how much 

he loves the veterans. 

We had a 31-year Navy veteran on this program some months ago who sued 

Donald Trump for fraud over a condo development in Southern California, 

sued him in Southern California federal court, condo development in Mexico.

Let`s listen to what he said, I asked him about as a military veteran, 

about his reaction to Donald Trump`s – the way Donald Trump talks about 

military veterans.  Let`s listen to that. 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) 

O`DONNELL:  You couldn`t have given more years of service to your country 

over 30-year veteran of the military. 

When you hear him talking about how he wants to take care of veterans, 

what`s your reaction to that? 

WILLIAM FLINT, VETERAN:  My reaction is that Donald Trump is putting on a 

con, that`s all it is.  He conned us, he`s a con-man, what else can I say? 

(END VIDEO CLIP) 

O`DONNELL:  Jon Favreau, he does leave people speechless at a certain point 

in the audacity of his con-man tactics.  

FAVREAU:  Right – 

O`DONNELL:  How does the – how did the – can the Democratic campaign 

handle this kind of candidate.  

I mean, he seems to have slipped away from every attempt to corner him that 

the Republicans tried in the primary. 

FAVREAU:  Yes, I mean, well, also let`s remember that Donald Trump`s first 

pronouncement about veterans in this campaign was when he said that John 

McCain wasn`t a hero because he was shot down. 

So, I think part of this and part of what the Democrats have to do and all 

of us have to do is remind people of what a con he is. 

Remind people of these lies on a daily basis.  And really, this is not 

ideological, this doesn`t have to do with whether you`re a Republican or 

you`re a Democrat or liberal or conservative.

The man is a pathological liar.  Most politicians, they say things that 

aren`t true from time to time, that`s true Democrats, that`s true 

Republicans.

He is in a class by himself.  And you know, it`s very dangerous for him to 

– for him to become president.  I think we just have to keep reminding 

people of that. 

O`DONNELL:  Let`s listen to what he said on Friday.  He also mentioned this 

judge today, this is – talking about the judge who is handling the fraud 

case involving Trump University in California.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) 

TRUMP:  I have a judge who is a hater of Donald Trump.  A hater, he`s a 

hater.  His name is Gonzalo Curio, and he is not doing the right thing. 

I`m getting railroaded by a legal system that frankly, they should be 

ashamed.  The judge who happens to be, we believe Mexican which is great, I 

think that`s fine. 

(END VIDEO CLIP) 

O`DONNELL:  Ben Ginsberg, he thinks it`s just fine that the judge is 

Mexican.  Now, you`re offering – represents him only on the election law 

stuff involved on the campaign, not on any of this – 

GINSBERG:  And I don`t do any of that work.   

O`DONNELL:  But your reaction to that just as a practitioner, here`s 

somebody who is in federal litigation attacking the federal judge that way. 

GINSBERG:  Yes, that`s not the textbook way to do it.  

(LAUGHTER) 

However, he obviously feels strongly about it and thinks it`s worth calling 

attention to it. 

I mean, the courts don`t operate in private.  They are public institutions, 

this is not the first time a plaintiff or defendant in a case has talked 

about the judge. 

O`DONNELL:  Well, it`s the first time the plaintiff in this case has said, 

we believe the judge is Mexican, he was born in Indiana, Howard Dean as, 

you know, Donald Trump was born to one parent who was foreign born. 

This judge, both of his parents were foreign born, but born in Indiana. 

DEAN:  Yes, I think again, we`re talking about the 15 million people in the 

middle.  Hispanic Americans are not in the middle on this one. 

I mean, I think Trump`s last number is 19 positive and 72 negative or 

something like that.

We never seen a number like that for a Republican in a presidential race, 

and if that`s the number on November 7th, Hillary Clinton is going to be 

the president of the United States. 

O`DONNELL:  We`re going to get a quick break in here, Ben Ginsberg and Jon 

Favreau, thank you both for joining us tonight.

Howard Dean, we`re going to need you later, stick around.  Coming up, the 

“Washington Post” reporter who forced Donald Trump to finally give or 

attempt to give a public accounting today of the money he says he raised 

for veterans. 

And Washington has been buzzing for weeks now about a possible third party 

challenge to Donald Trump masterminded by Republican Bill Kristol. 

But there already is a third party ready to go.  The libertarian party 

nominated their presidential and vice presidential candidates this past 

weekend.

Former Republican Governors Gary Johnson and Bill Weld will join us right 

here on THE LAST WORD. 

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) 

O`DONNELL:  If you can`t explain the Trump phenomenon, don`t feel bad.  

Theoretical physicist Stephen Hawking can`t either.  

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  You`re a man who knows the universe well, how do you 

explain the phenomenon of Donald Trump? 

STEPHEN HAWKING, THEORETICAL PHYSICIST:  I can`t.  He is such a demagogue 

who seems to appeal to the lowest common denominator. 

(END VIDEO CLIP) 

O`DONNELL:  Up next, the “Washington Post” reporter whose work forced 

Donald Trump to have that press conference today where he tried to explain 

what happened to the money he says he raised for veterans groups.

We`ll also be joined by a veteran who Donald Trump attacked today.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) 

TRUMP:  A 100 percent got the money.  We`ll certify checks if anyone wants 

to see the certified checks.

But rather than saying why don`t you put – I see a certified check.  They 

said, well, they didn`t say they got the money, they all got the money.

But they`re not people that always talk to the press, many of them do talk 

to the press.

(END VIDEO CLIP) 

O`DONNELL:  Of course, he didn`t show any certified checks today.  Joining 

us now are David Fahrenthold, a reporter for the “Washington Post” who 

wrote the story ten days ago on how Donald Trump was not handing all the 

money to veterans.

And Alexander McCoy who served in the Marine Corps for six years and has 

been leading protests against Donald Trump`s handling of donations to 

veterans organizations. 

David, today, Donald Trump handed out a list of organizations he says 

received money.  What proof do we actually have and proof McCoy says is not 

ever verbal. 

In this case, it`s like it`s documentary.  IRS doesn`t take your word for 

it, you actually have to show the canceled checks, the cash checks. 

What do we have by way of documentary proof that any of this has happened? 

DAVID FAHRENTHOLD, REPORTER, WASHINGTON POST:  Well, we don`t have a lot of 

documentary proof the way you`re describing canceled checks, paperwork. 

We`ve talked to though a number of the groups that Trump mentioned today.  

And we know from previous interviews that a lot of groups that got money 

before, they actually confirmed that the money came in, they deposited it. 

O`DONNELL:  So, Alexander, it sounds like there is nothing that the IRS 

would accept as proof in this case.

You have some organizations who are saying, yes, we got the money, but with 

the guy who is charged in fraud cases, from California to New York, who`s 

been sued for fraud many times. 

Who has proven himself in every public statement to lie publicly as he did 

today multiple times, that person is not someone that I think people should 

be trusting on a verbal basis. 

ALEXANDER MCCOY, VETERAN:  Well, I definitely think he`s displayed a lack 

of integrity.  And that`s one of the reasons why we went out to protest and 

demand that he showed greater accountability on this issue.  

The fact that he had to hold a press conference now only after facing so 

much scrutiny when he`s made these broad claims about how great he is for 

veterans, and all these things that he`s done that didn`t turn out to be 

accurate. 

That`s very troubling to me. 

O`DONNELL:  And let`s listen to what he said today about the administrative 

costs of distributing this charity.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) 

TRUMP:  Zero dollars have been taken out for administration.  You know, 

when you go to a lot of these different groups, in this case zero dollars 

have been taken out for administration.

So, a lot of these companies that make a lot of money were doing the 

administration stuff, so no money, it cost zero dollars to accumulate all 

of this money, OK?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL:  David Fahrenthold, what proof do we have of what he just said? 

FAHRENTHOLD:  It`s a good question.  We actually don`t have proof of that.  

We only have Trump say so in terms of how much money actually came in.

He says 5.6 million came in, he gave out 5.6 million, we don`t actually 

know that to be true. 

One thing that I thought was interesting about that was a lot of the 

groups, a lot of the donors that gave their money gave it directly to the 

charities.

It didn`t even pass through Trump`s hands, so, there`s really not any way 

that Trump would even have had a chance to collect an administrative fee 

off of that. 

But some of the money went to the Donald Trump Foundation, he then gave it 

away.  But we`re talking about a pretty simple operation, money comes in, 

money goes out.

It`s not a very time intensive operation like a charity that has to 

actually administer to veterans.  

O`DONNELL:  But I just want to stress the point as we discuss this, there 

is absolutely no proof of anything. 

David, just correct me if I`m wrong.  Is there – is there actual 

documentary, evidentiary proof of anything that Donald Trump said today? 

FAHRENTHOLD:  I – in terms of what I have seen, the things that I have 

seen in terms of canceled checks of a few canceled checks.  

And this actually was interesting to a few charities, this was a few weeks 

ago.  They got a letter from Donald Trump, it said, you know, I`m giving 

you this money – bank, you know, from Donald Trump Foundation. 

The actual check would come from somebody else.  In those cases, it came 

from charities and companies associated with a guy named Mark Fisher(ph), 

who runs a footwear company that does business with Ivanka Trump. 

So, Trump would sort of claim credit for that even though the checks were 

not his.  Those are the checks that I`ve seen.  But still I think – 

O`DONNELL:  OK –   

FAHRENTHOLD:  The checks do exist in a lot of these cases because I talked 

to the charities that got them.

O`DONNELL:  All right, and certainly, no one has seen the mythical million-

dollar check that Trump claims to have written. 

Alexander, you were attacked by name on the Trump stage today.  Donald 

Trump went after the protesting veterans out in front of Trump Tower.

But also another veteran who appeared with him from New Hampshire went 

after you directly.  What was your response to that? 

MCCOY:  Oh, I think it`s definitely very disappointing that Donald Trump`s 

first reaction when veterans stand up and demand that he hold – be held 

accountable is to attack those very veterans. 

He`s demonstrated that he doesn`t have respect for veterans who don`t agree 

–  

O`DONNELL:  Now, Trump`s – 

MCCOY:  Yes – 

O`DONNELL:  Principle attack on you is that you are part of the Hillary 

Clinton campaign, and your protest has been organized by the Hillary 

Clinton campaign. 

MCCOY:  Right, I`m sure some surrogate has been waving around the Facebook 

photo of mine as proof of this.  But the whole idea is ridiculous. 

O`DONNELL:  And that`s a picture of you with Hillary Clinton? 

MCCOY:  I was fortunate enough to meet Hillary Clinton, yes, last year.  

And I am personally supporting her, I voted for her in the Democratic 

primary. 

But the fact is our organization, our group, our grassroots national 

movement is composed of people all over the political spectrum.

It`s composed of Republicans, Democrats, independents, libertarians, 

veterans who are coming forward and saying that Donald Trump`s rhetoric is 

unacceptable. 

O`DONNELL:  We`re going to have to leave it there for tonight, Alexander 

McCoy and David Fahrenthold, thank you both for joining us, really 

appreciate it.

FAHRENTHOLD:  Thank you.

O`DONNELL:  Up next, Butch and Sundance, fresh from their victory at the 

nominating convention of the libertarian party this weekend.

The libertarian nominee for president Gary Johnson and the libertarian 

nominee for vice president Bill Weld, both here, both former Republican 

governors offering Republicans an alternative to Donald Trump.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) 

O`DONNELL:  In tonight`s war room, the third party, now that “Weekly 

Standard” Editor Bill Kristol has revealed that his search for an 

independent candidate to run against Donald Trump has come down to the 

hopelessly unknown “National Review” staff writer David French.

Many Republicans are turning to the libertarian party as their voting 

alternative to Donald Trump. 

Already, polls show the libertarian party getting 10 percent of the vote in 

three-way polling against Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton. 

And this weekend in Orlando, Florida, at the Libertarian Party Convention, 

two former Republican governors accepted the presidential and vice 

presidential nominations. 

Gary Johnson, former Governor of New Mexico will once again run as the 

libertarian nominee for president.  

And first-time nominee William Weld; former Governor of Massachusetts will 

run for vice president.  

Here is how Donald Trump graciously welcomed them to the race today.  

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) 

TRUMP:  Gary Johnson who got 1 percent of the vote last time, I watched 

that whole situation, it was really pretty disgraceful.

I think it`s a total fringe deal.  I think he is a fringe candidate, you 

want to know the truth. 

I look at him and I watch him and I watch his motions and I watch what he 

says.  I think that he is a fringe candidate, and your second, you know, 

Weld is – when you do research on that I think it is not going to be a 

factor.  

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL:  Joining us now, the libertarian nominee for president, Gary 

Johnson and his running mate, the party`s nominee for vice president, 

former governor, Bill Weld.  Gary Johnson, what is your response to what 

Donald Trump just had to say.  

GARY JOHNSON, LIBERTARIAN PARTY PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE:  I just totally 

embrace it.  I and Bill both have been fringe candidates from the very 

beginning.  Republican governors re-elected twice, in heavily blue states, 

embracing marriage equality, embracing a women`s right to choose, 

legalizing marijuana – Look, let us stop dropping bombs, fiscally 

conservative, socially liberal.  Hey, we have been fringed this whole way 

through.  He nailed it.  Good point landing.

(LAUGHING) 

O`DONNELL:  So Bill Weld, this weekend was your first libertarian 

convention.  So the first time you have seen a guy sort of half strip on 

the stage.  That happens at libertarian conventions.  

WILLIAM WELD, LIBERTARIAN PARTY VICE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE:  Well, I have 

seen that in –  

O`DONNELL:  Not that you have never seen it, but at a convention.  So what 

for you was the most difficult fit for you in libertarianism, moving from 

the republican party to the libertarian party.  

WELD:  None of it.  I mean, I feel free at least.  I d not have to wear the 

pack of my back of the anti-choice.  We are uneasy about gays and lesbians.  

Let us, the government, make decisions for you in your personal life.  I 

have always hated that and I had to wear it as a republican very uneasily.  

And, you know, I do not have to embrace democratic overspending, and not 

really caring about the $20 trillion in debt, which is going to hollow out 

our economy.  I do not have to embrace that.

So Gary and I are right in the middle.  We are right where you want to be.  

We do not agree with half of the platform of either major party.  So that 

puts us right in the center, and if you want to call the center a fringe, 

make the most of it.  

O`DONNELL:  But as a governor of Massachusetts – republican governor of 

Massachusetts, you appeared to be concerned with environmental damage in 

favor of certain kinds of environmental regulation, you also seem to favor 

a social safety net that would support people at the lower end of the 

poverty population.  That seems to me to contradict libertarianism.  

WELD:  Well, I do not know.  I mean, I care a lot about the working poor.  

The poor Steve who has a wife and two kids.  He is making $28,000 a year.  

He cannot do it.  I think what the governor of Massachusetts, which I did 

in my first year in office, to expand the earned income tax credit.  I 

think that is a good thing.  You got to think about people who are trying 

to make it in this country, and not quite being able to do so.  

O`DONNELL:  Governor Johnson, we know why Bill Crystal wants to look beyond 

you for a presidential candidate.  And, it is what they consider the 

national defense component.  Bill Crystal has never met a war venture that 

he was not in favor of, including obviously the Iraq war.  

And that is the part of your approach that he would disagree with the most.  

What do you have to say to republicans who are concerned with national 

security in the most traditional way that republicans are, but do not want 

to pull that lever for Donald Trump?  

JOHNSON:  Well, look.  We need an impenetrable national defense if we are 

going to attack, we are going to attack back.  But I would say that these 

military interventions have resulted in making the world less safe, not 

more safe.  And, let us involve congress in all of this.  

We have got 69 countries in the world that we are obligated to defend their 

borders, and congress has not authorized any of those treaties.  That has 

been executive treaties and the military.  And when it comes to our 

military actions abroad.  

Really, that is the executive.  That is the military.  Let us involve 

congress.   Let us get them right, front and center.  And I think the 

biggest threat in the world today is North Korea.  At some point, the 

intercontinental missiles are going to work.

And that is something we should join hands with.  So libertarians are often 

called, you know, noninterventionist or isolationists.  Well, come on, let 

us have diplomacy to the hilt and join hands with China, they recognize 

this threat from Korea.  

That is the most effective way to deal with this.  Maybe we can get the 

troops out of South Korea.  Maybe there can be a unification of the Koreas, 

but way different than what is happening –  

WELD:  Yes.  In other words, noninterventionists does not mean 

isolationists.  I would never call myself an isolationist.  I travel all 

over the world all the time.  I think you can get a lot done as Gary says 

with diplomacy including soft diplomacy.  

You know, the approach advocated by Professor Joe Nye at Harvard.  You can 

do a lot without even formal engagement and that is a good start.  It is A 

heck of a lot better than nothing.  Think about the ping pong overture the 

China in 1972.

O`DONNELL:  Governor Weld, you have said that Donald Trump`s proposal about 

deporting $11 million or more people that are not documented here in this 

country reminds you of the Nazi era.  Expand on that.  

WELD:  Well, it reminds me of the Jews being rounded up because of the 

great fear.  And, it would be a great fear among the $11 million people, 

whose papers are not in order in the United States.  And, they would be 

hiding in attics like Anne Frank, because they would not want people to 

find them and whosever house they were hiding in.  

That to me is not the America we want to be.  I mean, I have been obsessed 

by the holocaust for a long time.  And, you know, I made a point of saying, 

I am not accusing Mr. Trump of being a fascist or a Nazi.  But actions 

speak louder than words and these actions proposed by him I think are very 

troubling.  

I think the wall is reminiscing of the Berlin wall.  I think him calling 

everybody, “Oh, this is Hugh, the Aardvark,” or “Kevin, the armadillo” and 

just repeating it until everyone is saying, “Oh, yes, the armadillo guy, 

that is Kevin,” or “Aardvark, that is Hughey.”  

Asked people to drink Kool-aid, and the republican primaries apparently 

people did.  To me, it is analogous to Jim Jones, Indiana in Jonestown, you 

know, making people drink the Kool-aid.  That is politically poisonous 

Kool-aide.  

O`DONNELL:  Governor Johnson, the last time you are in, you got 1 percent 

of the vote.  You are already polling 10 times higher than that in this 

campaign.  What about the debates.  There is this notion that you need 15 

percent in polls about five consecutive polls in order to qualify for the 

organized presidential debates.  Do you think there should be a change in 

that or are you willing to have that be the standard you have to meet?  

JOHNSON:  No.  The standard is fine.  It is just appearing in the polls.  

You know, I have appeared in three polls, 10 percent, 10 percent and 11 

percent.  There have been another 40 polls that have gone by since then, 

where my name has not appeared.  And, I see you guys did a poll.  And, 

there is not a Johnson-Weld name up there right now.  

Look, I think polls have a self fulfilling proficiency at a certain point.  

People check it out.  And I think the two of us have records that really 

show – that really shine with the scrutiny that would go along with 

showing up at that level. 

So no problem with the 15 percent.  Just how about if you are on the ballot 

in all 50 states, which Bill and I are going to be on the ballot in all 50 

states, we are going to be the only third party that can lay claim to that.  

Should not that entitle maybe us to be in the polls?  That is all we are 

asking for.  

O`DONNELL:  Governors Gary Johnson and Bill Weld, thank you both for 

joining us tonight.  Beginning your first week, campaigning as a ticket.  

WELD:  Lawrence, thank you.

JOHNSON:  Thank you for having us.

O`DONNELL:  Good luck out there.  Thank you very much.  

Coming up.  Hillary Clinton changes her schedule suddenly to rush out to 

California to catch up with Bernie Sanders, who of course us already there 

as the race in California tightens.  

(MUSIC PLAYING)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O`DONNELL:  Hillary Clinton picked up a big endorsement in California today 

from a politician who has had a troubled history with the Clintons.  That 

is next.  But first, here is how it looked on the campaign trail today.  

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP:  I have given a lot of money and raised a lot of money for the vets.  

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HALLIE JACKSON, MSNBC CORRESPONDENT:  Who got that money?  When did they 

get it?  And why did it take so long to get it to them?  

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP:  And all of a sudden everybody is going, “Where did it go?  Who did 

it go to?”  

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HILLARY CLINTON, (D) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE:  The problem here is the 

difference between what Donald Trump says and what Donald Trump does.  It 

is just the reporter to shame him into actually making his contribution.  

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP:  And, you think I am going to change?  I am not changing.  

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JACKSON:  Donald Trump was essentially insulting not just members of the 

press, but an entire list of people.  

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP:  Are you ready?  Do you have your pad?  

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JACKSON:  There are couple of reporters –

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP:  Excuse me.  I have watched you on television.  You are a real 

beauty.  This sleazy guy, right over here from ABC.  You are a sleaze.  

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JACKSON:  The judge in California overseeing his Trump University case.  

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP:  He has been very unfair.  

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JACKSON:  Conservative writer, Bill Crystal, who tweeted about speculation 

of an independent candidate.    

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP:  Bill Crystal is a loser.  

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JACKSON:  Mitt Romney.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP:  I am not a fan of Mitt Romney.  He looks like a fool. 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JACKSON:  Susana Martinez, the governor of New Mexico.  

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP:  She was not nice.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JACKSON:  Gary Johnson, the new libertarian candidate.  

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP:  I think he is a fringe candidate, if you want to know the truth.  

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JACKSON:  And again most of the press.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP:  I am going to continue to attack the press.  

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KRISTEN WELKER, NBC WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT:  Secretary Clinton will 

likely clinch the nomination even before all of the votes in California are 

counted.  

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER (voice-over):  Meanwhile, Bernie Sanders, 

continues to barn storm the state.  

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER (voice-over):  She is getting an endorsement 

by Governor Jerry Brown today.  

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BERNIE SUPPORTERS:  Bernie!  Bernie!  Bernie!  Bernie!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CLINTON:  I am feeling positive about my campaign in California.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BERNIE SANDERS, (D) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE:  If there is a large turn-out 

on June 7th here in California, we are going to win here in California.   

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O`DONNELL:  Hillary Clinton has changed her campaign schedule this week, 

cancelling a Thursday even in New Jersey in order to spend five straight 

days in California before next Tuesday`s primary.  Today, Secretary Clinton 

picked up the endorsement of California Governor Jerry Brown, who released 

a written statement endorsing her.  Here is Bernie Sanders` response.  

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SANDERS:  In every state that we have gone into, we have taken on the 

entire democratic establishment, with the governors or senators with one 

exception in Oregon, mayors.  And you know what?  We have won 20 states.  

So it is not surprising to me that you know, we will have the democratic 

establishment supporting Hillary Clinton.  I like Jerry Brown, but people 

can make their own choices.  

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL:  Back with us, Howard Dean, who is a Hillary Clinton supporter.  

Howard, they are locked in a tie, basically.  Hillary Clinton at 46, Bernie 

Sanders at 44.  And suddenly, the Clinton campaign at California is really 

important.  

HOWARD DEAN, SUPPORTS HILLARY CLINTON FOR PRESIDENT:  It is really 

important.  And it is really important not because it is going to be a 

problem if she loses, because she is going to win the nomination.  She is 

270 votes ahead or something like that.  

But from a momentum point of view, it would be great if she can win 

California.  She is going to win New Jersey.  She is probably going to end 

up with more pledge delegates, one on the seventh of June than Bernie will.  

But California matters. 

O`DONNELL:  It seems that Bernie strategy, may be, if he does not have the 

pledge delegates, and Hillary Clinton does, to not concede – to actually 

do what Jerry Brown did, when he very bitterly ran against Bill Clinton.  

And literally, take it all the way to the convention and consider Bill 

Clinton a nominee only when they actually cast the delegate votes on the 

floor at the convention.  

DEAN:  Yes.  I do not think that is terrible idea,  I am sure that Clinton 

folks do not like that idea.  

O`DONNELL:  It did not hurt Bill Clinton –

DEAN:  No.  And it will not hurt us.  It will not hurt Hillary`s people at 

all, because nothing wrong with having a spirited discussion of the 

convention.  There is something wrong with trashing the democratic party at 

the convention.  There is something wrong with that,  

I got to believe that Bernie`s legacy – Bernie has an incredible legacy 

right now.  I do not think he wants his legacy to be the same as Ralph 

Nader after this is all over.  So I think he is going to do the right 

thing.  

But I do think you are right, I think he is going to go to the convention.  

I think he is going to make a speech.  I think there is going to be a vote.  

And, after there is a vote, then we are going to find out who the nominee 

officially is.

O`DONNELL:  Just a personal word about – here you are from Vermont with a 

long relationship with Bernie Sanders and you are an early endorser of 

Hillary Clinton.  How has that been for you, personally with Bernie.

DEAN:  Well, you know, I think Bernie and I respect each other.  You know, 

I was with Hillary long before Bernie was in the race.  I actually did not 

think he was going to run.  I was surprised when he got in.  He spent all 

of town meeting day, which is – the first Tuesday in March, going around 

to towns in Vermont.  

So I figure, “OK, there is no way this guy is going to run for president.”  

And then, three, four, five and six weeks later, he was in.  You know, I 

mean, my state voted 86 percent for Bernie, but I am a super delegate.  And 

not only, I am not a super delegate.  I am not a super delegate from 

Vermont.  

I am a super delegate from the country, because that was the former 

chairman of the party, which is how I got to be super delegates.  So I do 

not have any problems at voting for Hillary Clinton or whatsoever and I am 

going to do that.  

O`DONNELL:  Howard Dean, thank you for joining us tonight.  I appreciate 

it.

DEAN:  Thank you.  

O`DONNELL:  Coming up, violence in the 2016 Campaign trail.  We have seen 

it before.  And when we saw it before, it was much worse.  It is coming up.   

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GIL SCOTT-HERON, AMERICAN SOUL AND JAZZ POET, MUSICIAN (singing):  You will 

not be able to stay home, brother.  You will not be able to plug in, turn 

on and cop out.  You will not be able to lose yourself on skag and skip out 

for beer during commercials, because the revolution will not be televised.  

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL:  Gil Scott- Heron`s “The Revolution Will Not Be Televised” was 

anthem To America`s 20th Century revolutionaries at the peak of their 

revolutionary zeal in 1970, when he wrote that song.  

What was televised during the academic year of 1969 and 1970, were Nightly 

News reports of over 9,000 protests.  84 incidents of bombing or arson on 

college campuses, 2.5 million students on strike.  And 700 college 

shutdowns like the deadly one at Kent state.  

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE LEWIS, KENT STATE STUDENT:  I was convinced that these guns were not 

loaded with live ammo.  I thought, “How ridiculous would that be?”  Until I 

saw the ground in front of me churned up, and I realized at that moment 

that they were live bullets.  I was also shot at that point.  

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LAUREL KRAUSE, SISTER OF KENT STATE VICTIM, ALLISON KRAUSE:  The guards all 

turned in unison and they are all shooting unison.  61 to 67 bullets at our 

own students.  My center was 343 feet away from her shooters.  

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL:  The occasional small outbursts of violence that we have seen at 

Trump campaign events, is the first campaign violence that most Americans 

have ever have seen.  But the campaign year of 1968, was by far, the most 

violent American campaign that cameras ever captured including the riot at 

the democratic national convention, which was really a police riot started 

by the Chicago Police Department.  

The year after that presidential election, that gave us Republican 

President Richard Nixon, the movement to end the war in Vietnam became more 

desperate.  And the government`s attempt to crash that movement became 

increasingly violent.  Revolution was in the air.  It was in our music and 

it was in the spirit of most of the protests of that time.  

Up next, where are the revolutionaries now?  One of them is running for 

president.   

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SANDERS:  Tell the world, you are prepared to go forward with a political 

revolution!  Thank you! 

(AUDIENCE CHEERING AND APPLAUDING)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL:  Joining us now, Clara Bingham, Author of “Witness to the 

Revolution.”  Book was released in stores today.  So Clara, you are 

covering that revolutionary year, the academic year or 1969-1970.  I cannot 

listen to Bernie Sanders, without thinking about these people who you are 

talking about in this book, the revolutionaries of that time.  

CLARA BINGHAM, AUTHOR, “WITNESS TO THE REVOLUTION”:  That is right, because 

Bernie was one of them.  

O`DONNELL:  Yes.

BINGHAM:  He is an ex-hippie from Vermont, which was the state everyone 

fled to, although communes started up there.  There were like 40 communes 

in Vermont when Bernie moved there in 1968.  

O`DONNELL:  These little outbreaks and I say little in relative terms to 

what you are writing about here.  The little outbreaks of violence that we 

have seen at campaign trail at Trump events are so minuscule compared to 

what the country was going through back in that time.  And you chronicled 

in here this relentless, recurring violent protests, bombings.  Bombings 

were routinely reported on like page 19 of the newspaper in those days.  

  

BINGHAM:  I know, it is really hard to imagine how close the country came 

to a civil war during that school year of `69 and `70.  It was as close as 

we had come to the 1860s.  And there was a palpable feeling there could be 

an overthrow of the government.  

O`DONNELL:  There was some kind of revolutionary speech given at every one 

of those protests.  You have done an oral history here.  When you let the 

people involved tell their stories.  What are some of the big surprises for 

you as you were listening to those story?  

BINGHAM:  I would say one of the big ones were the regrets.  Some of the 

radical lefties, the ones who went as far to left as possible and became 

violent and militant and members of the weather underground, for example.  

They regret that they went as far as they did, because they realized that 

it was politically not a smart thing to do.  

It actually helped the Nixon administration and insighted the FBI to chase 

after them.  There was really a war going on between the FBI.  The black 

Panthers and the weather underground and – it was interesting now, 

everyone is in their late 60s and early 70s, and they are looking back at 

what they did in their 20s.

And, also understanding how angry they were about the war, which was such 

an atrocity at the time and so as racism and police brutality and the 

frustration levels were just very, very high.  So they understood why they 

did what they did, but now wished that there were certain things they had 

not done.  

O`DONNELL:  And they were a tiny, tiny fraction of the people we are 

talking about here.  The people who got violent, less than 1 percent of the 

protesters wherein anything like the weather underground, because this was 

a pacifist movement.  This was real mass pacifist anti-war – the first 

great anti-war movement in the United States.  

BINGHAM:  Exactly October 15, 1969, two million American people stopped 

work for an entire day to have a national strike against the war.  I mean 

that was the largest amount of people ever.  A month later in November, 

500,000 people came to Washington, D.C. for the moratorium to end the war, 

the second one.  

These kind of numbers we cannot even imagine.  I mean imagine half a 

million of people descened on.  And they would do it on a dime.  On May 

9th, African state, 150,000 descended on Washington, D.C.  The numbers were 

huge and at most everyone was peaceful.  

O`DONNELL:  The book is “Witness To The Revolution.”  Most of you did not 

live through this and this is the best story of it that is out there.  Can 

you stay around and we will talk about it more online and it will be one of 

our very last words that we post on line?  

BINGHAM:  Sure thing.  

O`DONNELL:  All right.  Then you get “The Last Word” in the show and you 

will get it online.  Clara Bingham got tonight`s “Last Word.”  Chris Hayes 

is up next.  

END    

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