The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell, Transcript 5/26/2016

Alex Conant, Lis Smith, Fmr. Rep. Bob Inglis, Mike Lupica, Hugh Hewitt, Wesley Clark


Date: May 26, 2016

Guest: Alex Conant, Lis Smith, Fmr. Rep. Bob Inglis, Mike Lupica, Hugh 

Hewitt, Wesley Clark

RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC HOST:  You might have noticed there`s been a lot of 

vice presidential sweepstakes talk this year about the prospect that a 

retired general military leader might end up being a running mate in one or 

both of the two major parties.

The last retired general to run for president was Democrat Wesley Clark, 

and he is a guest of Lawrence O`Donnell`s on “THE LAST WORD”.

That does it for us tonight, we will see you again, tomorrow. 

LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, HOST, THE LAST WORD:  On the day that Donald Trump 

locked up enough delegates for the Republican nomination, Paul Ryan is 

still trying to figure out what Donald Trump really thinks before he 

endorses him. 

The best way to do that as we will find out later in the program is not to 

listen to what Donald Trump says, but to follow the money, Donald Trump`s 


And later, a special last word about one of Donald Trump`s new favorite 

words – Pocahontas.   




UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Donald Trump has reached the number of delegates needed 

to clinch the Republican nomination.  

TRUMP:  Unbound, to a now bound, I think you`re bound, you promise you`ll 

bound everybody.  


want a real party unity and that`s what I`m most concerned about.  

TRUMP:  I think Reince has done a really good job. 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Reince Priebus! 


that they are surprised by the Republican nominee.

STEVE KORNACKI, MSNBC:  President Obama talking about how world leaders 

view Donald Trump.  

OBAMA:  They`re rattled by him, and for a good reason.  

TRUMP:  When you rattle someone, that`s good.  

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  This guy is such an ass, I mean – 


SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (D), VERMONT:  Donald Trump has agreed to debate me, 

and I look forward to that.  

TRUMP:  Oh, I`d love to debate Bernie, he`s a dream.  


together to unify our party to stop Donald Trump.  

TRUMP:  You have to be wealthy in order to be great.  I`m sorry to say it.  

OBAMA:  The policies that he`s made display either ignorance of world 

affairs or a cavalier attitude.  

TRUMP:  America first, folks, America first.  Make America great again.  

America first, make America great again.  


O`DONNELL:  Today, the inevitable became official after 27 unbound 

delegates from North Dakota, Colorado and Pennsylvania bound themselves to 

Donald Trump and put him over the top in the number of delegates needed to 

secure the Republican presidential nomination. 

But the Republican Speaker of the house Paul Ryan is still not bound to 

Donald Trump.  


TRUMP:  I spoke with Paul Ryan last night, we had a very good conversation 

that`s moving along, he`s a good man, and we`ll see how that all works out.  

RYAN:  It was a productive phone call like I said, we`ve had these 

conversations, our staffs have been meeting, and we had a very good and 

very productive phone call.  

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Did it get you close to the yes? 

RYAN:  We had a very productive phone call, leave it at that.  

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Are you concerned at all about how it looks to have the 

speaker of the house not formally getting behind your nominee?

RYAN:  What I`m – what I`m most concerned about is making sure that we 

actually have real party unity, not pretend party unity.

Real party unity because we need to win this election in the Fall.  There`s 

just too much at stake, the Supreme Court, on and on and on I could go. 

The point is I want real party unity and that`s what I`m most concerned 



O`DONNELL:  So, after another conversation with Donald Trump last night, 

two weeks after his first conversation with Donald Trump, Paul Ryan is 

saying exactly the same thing about why he is not endorsing Donald Trump. 

Marco Rubio was asked today if he would be willing to campaign for Donald 



SEN. MARCO RUBIO (R), FLORIDA:  Look, my policy differences with Donald 

Trump, I spent 11 months talking about them. 

So, I think they`re well understood.  That said, I don`t want to be – I 

don`t Hillary Clinton to be president. 

And if there`s something I can do to help that from happening and it`s 

helpful to the cause, I`d most certainly be honored to be considered for 



O`DONNELL:  And we just happen to have some clips of what Marco Rubio had 

to say the last time he talked about Donald Trump on the campaign trail.  


RUBIO:  The vast and overwhelming majority of Republicans do not want 

Donald Trump to be our nominee.  

Oh, I don`t think there`s anyone in (INAUDIBLE) compares to the vulgarity 

of a Donald Trump candidacy.

He says he`s some sort of business genius, really? Then why did four of 

your companies go into bankruptcy?

We are not going to let the conservative movement and the party of Ronald 

Reagan and the party of Abraham Lincoln be taken over by a first-rate con-


Donald Trump has been bullying people for a year and insulting people.  

Bullies need to be stood up to, and I was proud and happy to do it.  


O`DONNELL:  Joining us now, Hugh Hewitt; radio talk-show host with the 

“Salem Radio Network” and an Msnbc political analyst.  

Joy Reid, Msnbc national correspondent is also with us, she`s the host of 

“AM JOY” weekends at 10:00 a.m. on Msnbc. 

And Mike Lupica; columnist for the “New York Daily News” and an Msnbc 


Vince Foster`s sister today broke her silence since her brother`s suicide 

decades ago, saying that what Donald Trump has said about Vince Foster was 

wrong, irresponsible and cruel. 

She went on to write, “this is scurrilous enough coming from right-wing 

political operatives who have peddled conspiracy theories about Vince`s 

death for more than two decades.

How could this be coming from the presumptive Republican nominee for 

president, and that brought this response from Donald Trump today.  Let`s 

listen to this.  


TRUMP:  I really know nothing about the Vince Foster situation.  Haven`t 

known anything about it. 

And somebody asked me the question the other day, and I said that, a lot of 

people are very skeptical as to what happened and how he died. 

I know nothing about it.  I don`t think it`s something that frankly – 

unless some evidence to the contrary of what I`ve seen comes up, I don`t 

think it`s something that should really be part of the campaign. 

But again, if you people reveal something to me, I`ll answer it the 

appropriate way.  


O`DONNELL:  So, Joy – 


O`DONNELL:  Something he brought up – 

REID:  Yes – 

O`DONNELL:  He thinks is not something that should really be part of the 


REID:  Right, conspiracy theories that he imbibed from Alex Jones or 

wherever it is that he gets his ideas.

He`s now saying, oh, I know nothing about that.  But I think what`s really 

significant here is the clip you played before that, Lawrence, which was 

Paul Ryan.

Saying the only thing that matters is party unity.  And then you juxtapose 

that with the things that Donald Trump just spontaneously says. 

And you realize that there is no floor through which Donald Trump could 

fall, that`s low enough that the Republican Party writ large would not 

reach down and scoop him back up into their arms.  

That`s what I would be alarmed about if I was a Republican who really 

believed in the principles of the Republican Party, and that those 

principles mean something more than winning elections.

O`DONNELL:  Yes, and what Marco Rubio said about Donald Trump today came 

after what Donald Trump – 

REID:  Yes – 

O`DONNELL:  Said about Vince Foster.  Mike, you remember the Muslim ban – 


O`DONNELL:  The Donald Trump Muslim ban? It`s not anymore I think exactly 

what you think it might be.

Let`s listen to what the Muslim ban is today.  


UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  As of – as of today, Mr. Trump, do you still believe 

that – would you still want to ban all foreign Muslims from the United 

States on a temporary basis? Is that still your policy as of today? 

TRUMP:  As of this moment, I am very unhappy when I look at the world of 

radical Islam, I`m very unhappy with it, we`re going to find the problem 

and we`re going to come up with the solution.  

Obama could never come up with a solution, number one, he`s incompetent, 

and number two, the solution just is never going to be out there for him.


TRUMP:  He won`t even mention – he won`t even mention the words radical 

Islamic terrorism.


O`DONNELL:  And Mike, I noticed he wouldn`t even mention the words Muslim 

ban in his Muslim ban answer.

And I don`t know what`s going on with that now.

LUPICA:  There`s an old boxing promoter named Bob Arum who was once caught 

in an inconsistency, and he said yesterday I was lying, today I`m telling 

the truth. 


And I believe that he believes things when he says them.  And you know, the 

other day I was kind of waiting for him to bring Ted Cruz`s father into the 

conversation about what happened to Vince Foster. 

But Lawrence, you were just talking about this.  Paul Ryan keeps saying, 

we`re having productive conversations, and I`m thinking, about what? 

O`DONNELL:  Right – 

LUPICA:  You know, how do you think Schwarzenegger is going to do on 

“Celebrity – 

O`DONNELL:  Right – 

LUPICA:  Apprentice?” 

O`DONNELL:  Right – 

LUPICA:  How many conversations would they have to have for Paul Ryan`s 

core beliefs to somehow be aligned with Mr. Trump`s? 

O`DONNELL:  Well, here is one that is not looking farther apart.  Hugh 

Hewitt, we have this report from Josh Green in “Bloomberg Business Week”, 

it shows this giant policy problem with Donald Trump. 

This is from Josh Green`s reporting, Donald Trump saying this to him.  

“Five, ten years from now, different party” – meaning, the Republican 


“You`re going to have a worker`s party, a party of people that haven`t had 

a real wage increase in 18 years, that are angry. 

What I want to do, I think cutting Social Security is a big mistake for the 

Republican Party. 

And I know it`s a big part of the budget, cutting it the wrong way is a big 

mistake and even cutting it at all.” 

Hugh Hewitt, how can Paul Ryan come to an agreement with someone who is 

saying that?  

HUGH HEWITT, RADIO HOST:  Well, he can adopt Ronald Reagan`s position that 

if you get 70 percent agreement, you`re an ally, not an enemy. 

And I do believe that Speaker Ryan is the leader of the Republican Party 

even as Donald Trump is its nominee.

And so, those two have to work out whether or not they`re going to work it 

out.  I want to go back to something that Mike just said though. 

Donald Trump has proven himself to be a media genius, Lawrence.  He 

dominates in a way that no one has ever dominated a presidential cycle with 

the most sophisticated electorate that exist. 

But he manages to bring the conversation back to him every single night on 

every single channel which is very hard to do. 

It`s almost impossible to do.  I personally – and I`ve been wrong in this 

election season more often than the Cavs lost or LeBron was in Miami.

So, I`ve been wrong a lot this year.  And that`s a lot, Mike knows that`s a 


But nevertheless, I think the election will be decided in September and 

October as it was in 2008, as it was in 2000, in years of non-incumbents.   

And so Donald Trump is simply practicing various instruments.  And it was 

not smart to talk about the tragedy of Vince Foster 23 years ago, 23 weeks 

before the election. 

So, he backed off of that, and the American electorate is in on every joke.  

This is the red-wedding election, they`re the most sophisticated election. 

They know every joke that he is telling, they get every inconsistency and 

they don`t care yet. 

He`s got the highest floor of any Republican nominee heading into the 

convention, but he might also have the lowest ceiling, that`s why Paul Ryan 

matters a lot to him.  

LUPICA:  Hugh, I was just talking to Pete King, Representative Pete King 

right before I came on the air.  

And he says more and more people that he talks to about Trump say the 

following: I think he`s wrong about this, I think he`s wrong about that.

I don`t agree with him on this, this and this, but he`s better than her.  

Is that the new progressive movement in the Republican Party? 

HEWITT:  Well, there`s Charles Murray`s piece in “National Review” this 

week which says that argument won`t cut it. 

I did hear Paul Ryan reference the Supreme Court vacancy, Justice Scalia`s 

vacancy.  That is an intellection point if it`s filled by Secretary Clinton 

as opposed to Mr. Trump.

If he stays within his 11 nominees, that`s enough to bring a lot of people 

around.  On the other hand, you have President Obama saying he rattles the 


And a lot of people ask the commander-in-chief question, there is a Shy 

Tory element here, and Joy and I talked about this before on “Meet the 


The Shy Torries are the people who are going to vote for Hillary although 

you think they`re going to vote for Trump or the people are going to vote 

for Trump although they`re going to vote for Hillary.  

It`s the largest number I think we`ve seen in my lifetime, I`m 60 years 

old.  I just don`t think we`ve ever had this much uncertainty in an 


O`DONNELL:  Joy, does the – does – Trump putting out his list of Supreme 

Court Justices energize Democrats more than Republicans? 

REID:  I think to the extent that people don`t know who any of those people 


The question you have to ask yourself is would Donald Trump three days from 

now stick to anything that he`s telling Republicans today? 

He can`t decide on a given day whether he wants to relitigate the `90s or 

let them go.  

He can`t decide on a given day whether he wants to be a far right 

Republican or a moderate one or a progressive one or a Bernie Sanders.

And so, I think the idea here is that it leaves the Republican Party, 

having been so wrong about who the base of their own party is for them to 

now have the cheek to believe that they can somehow manage and control that 

person, Donald Trump.

That he will somehow come under the sway of Paul Ryan and that he won`t 

just run him around the capital the way the tea party has.  I think it`s 

insane that that`s what they actually think – 


O`DONNELL:  And don`t they all – don`t they all have a problem with their 

constituents? In that – Marco Rubio is retiring from elected office, so – 

REID:  Theoretically – 

O`DONNELL:  Right now – but what we just did with him, he`s going to go 

out and say something nice about Donald Trump whenever he does it, right? 

We are going to run the video of everything he used to say about – 

REID:  That`s right – 

O`DONNELL:  Donald Trump.  So, what you`re showing your constituents is, I 

don`t know when you are telling the truth – 

REID:  Right – 

O`DONNELL:  As you said X months ago that – 

REID:  That`s right – 

O`DONNELL:  Trump was a, you know, a con man, now you`re saying he should 

be president.  

REID:  And there is no thinner plank to be on than to be the guy who was 

belittled and humiliated by Donald Trump who now goes out humbly in his 


I don`t know how that makes you, as Marco Rubio, a strong person, let alone 

a worthy advocate.  

I don`t think I`d want that endorsement. 

O`DONNELL:  What about that, Mike? I mean, Trump is turning them all into, 

are you telling me the truth now or were you telling me the truth then? 

LUPICA:  Yes, and they all end up looking the way Chris Christie did – 

O`DONNELL:  Yes – 

LUPICA:  Just like the way – 

O`DONNELL:  Yes – 


LUPICA:  (INAUDIBLE) And – but don`t you think it`s interesting how 

seamlessly so many people have gone from never Trump to never Hillary as a 

justification of getting in line with a guy who is going to be an extremely 

formidable opponent for Secretary Clinton in the Fall.  

O`DONNELL:  Hugh, do you think that there will be the moment where Paul 

Ryan says OK, we`re 70 percent is good enough, 80 percent, whatever number 

you pick. 

We`re never going to agree on Social Security and entitlement funding, but 

I am endorsing Donald Trump. 

HEWITT:  I don`t know, Lawrence, I think of the 69 Mets.  I think it`s 

fascinating that Mike has become one of the most objective commentators as 

a sports writer, as one of America`s best sports writers. 

This is a campaign like a season where an underdog comes that has never 

been expected to win. 

And you got to be Tug McGraw at the end, and say you got to believe.  And 

so, you got to believe that maybe Trump can pull it all together, but I 

don`t know.  

O`DONNELL:  OK, we`re going to have to leave it there, Joy Reid, Mike 

Lupica and Hugh Hewitt, thank you all for joining us tonight. 

REID:  Thanks.  

O`DONNELL:  Coming up, Donald Trump says rattled is a good thing.  And in 

the war room tonight, Donald Trump versus Bernie Sanders and the debate 

Bernie is ready to go, now it`s all up to Donald. 


O`DONNELL:  What do you do if the President of the United States says that 

you are ignorant of world affairs and you have rattled world leaders?

Well, if you`re Donald Trump, you`d say, I love that.  General Wesley Clark 

says rattled is not good, being reliable is good.  That`s next.


O`DONNELL:  In Japan today, President Obama was asked what other foreign 

leaders are saying to him about the presidential election in the United 



OBAMA:  They are paying very close attention to this election, I think it`s 

fair to say that they are surprised by the Republican nominee. 

They are not sure how seriously to take some of his pronouncements, but 

they`re rattled by him, and for a good reason. 

Because a lot of the proposals that he`s made display either ignorance of 

world affairs or a cavalier attitude or an interest in getting tweets and 

headlines instead of actually thinking through what it is that is required 

to keep America safe and secure and prosperous and what`s required to keep 

the world on an even keel.  


O`DONNELL:  At Donald Trump`s press conference this afternoon, not 

surprisingly, the first question was about President Obama`s comments.


TRUMP:  I love that word.  He used a bad word because he knows nothing 

about business.  When you rattle someone, that`s good.

Because many of the world as you know, many of our – the countries in our 

world, beautiful world have been absolutely abusing us and taking advantage 

of us.

So, if they`re rattled in a friendly way, we`re going to have great 

relationships with these countries, but if they`re rattled in a friendly 

way, that`s a good thing, John, not a bad thing.


O`DONNELL:  Joining us now, General Wesley Clark, he served as the NATO 

Supreme Allied Commander from 1997 to 2000.

He`s a former Democratic presidential candidate.  General Clark, first of 

all, I want to get a reaction to President Obama`s comments. 

Do you think it was appropriate for the President to talk about domestic 

American politics in a campaign while on a foreign trip like this? 


was asked about it, it would be hard for him to duck giving an answer, 

because it really wasn`t so much about domestic politics at home. 

It was really about what the impact is abroad.  And so I think it`s a fair 

question, I thought he gave a good answer. 

O`DONNELL:  And what about Donald Trump`s response, what`s your reaction to 

that? That it`s good that countries feel rattled by him.  

CLARK:  Well, U.S. policy has tried to build a record of reliability and 

consistency.  That way, both our adversaries or potential adversaries and 

our friends understand what we`ll do, they understand what we stand for. 

They`ll support us.  They know how far they can go.  So, when you shake 

that up, you create a lot of uncertainty, and usually that uncertainty is 

not productive. 

Our friends pull back from us, our adversaries take advantage and I`ve 

traveled all over the world, Europe and Asia since January, I`ve been 

stopped repeatedly in airports, in restaurants, in business meetings and 

with some government officials, asked the same question President Obama was 

asked today. 

And there`s worldwide concern – 

O`DONNELL:  Yes – 

CLARK:  About the attitudes and expressions that Donald Trump has given.  

No other way to say it.  

O`DONNELL:  There is a worldwide poll showing that 74 percent of people 

outside the United States say that Trump`s politics have had a negative 

effect on their view of America. 

Another 71 percent say that Trump`s views are bad for the global economy.  

And so, it would seem that it would be impossible for the president as you 

say to escape a question like that when he is out there in foreign 


And when the President knows that that kind of polling is out there, I 

imagine the President would feel a certain responsibility to speak to the 

world about this and what they`re fearing in this candidate.  

CLARK:  Oh, absolutely true.  And you know, all of us who served in the 

Armed Forces, especially people of my generation who were during the cold 

war, and we were dealing with the Soviet Union and we were trying to be 

responsible and protect the country and hold the free world together. 

When you listen to Mr. Trump speak, it`s very jarring.  Because people put 

their lives, their families, their careers, everything into this effort. 

Like NATO, and NATO`s just as important today as it was before.  I was just 

in eastern Europe and heard repeated fears that Mr. Trump might become the 

president and cut a deal with Mr. Putin, they call it yalta II(ph).

Where the president of the United States would give up on eastern Europe, 

even after they were members of NATO. 

So, people are very worried about, about what this means, it may make great 

political theater among some circles in the United States to sort of shake 

your fists. 

But countries abroad have counted on the United States just as the 

President said, they`ve counted on our values, on our strength, on our 


They always believed we would act in our own self-interest.  Nobody ever 

thought, hey, the United States doesn`t care about the United States, 

they`re just going to do everything for us. 

No, but they understood that our interests and their interests had a lot in 

common, and that when we were helping them, we were actually doing 

something to help ourselves. 

So, when you rattle these leaders and you cause them to re-think their 

positions, and should they support us in the Middle East, should they work 

with us in the United Nations?

Or how much should they raise their defense budgets? And all these issues 

that cause political pain in our allies to support us and what we`re trying 

to do in the world. 

And if you`re the President of the United States and you throw all that up 

in the air and say, don`t care where it comes down, there`s a new boss in 


You don`t know what the consequences might be, but they`re probably not 

going to be good.  

O`DONNELL:  Donald Trump has said that he wants NATO countries to pay more 

for NATO operations so that the United States can pay less. 

And he has said, “if it breaks up NATO, it breaks up NATO.”  Could you 

explain to Donald Trump what the value of NATO is to the United States? 

CLARK:  Well, it`s actually a value that`s incalculable.  That is to say, 

since the start of the – of the cold war, we`ve had NATO allies with us.

We preserved the peace in Europe.  We`ve extended democracy and human 

rights eastward in Europe and created a zone of stability where there was 

no such stability before. 

So, it makes the economy work globally, it`s the foundation for everything 

else that happens really in the world. 

It`s a foundation for agreements in the United Nations to move forward on 

helping refugees.

It`s the foundations for the International Monetary Fund and the World Bank 

to assist nations in Africa. 

It`s the basis for – I mean, you can go on and on, and you can`t do any of 

these things without security, and you can`t have security if the United 

States and Europe don`t work together.  And that`s NATO.  

O`DONNELL:  General Wesley Clark, thank you very much for your insight 

tonight, really appreciate it. 

CLARK:  Thank you. 

O`DONNELL:  Coming up next, in the war room, the Donald Trump versus Bernie 

Sanders debate, any chance that that will actually happen, and if it did 

happen who would be helped by it and who would be hurt? 

And later, I will have a last word tonight about the word that Donald Trump 

uses when he talks about Elizabeth Warren.

And the ugly truth that he tells us about himself by choosing that word.


O`DONNELL:  In the war room tonight, Donald Trump versus Bernie Sanders.  

Jimmy Kimmel last night asked Donald Trump if he would debate Bernie 



JIMMY KIMMEL, COMEDIAN & TELEVISION HOST:  Are you prepared to debate the 

major issues facing our largest state and the country before the California 


Yes or no? He wants to know if you would debate him –   

TRUMP:  Yes, I am.  How much is he going to pay me?  


O`DONNELL:  Bernie Sanders heard the yes part.  



Trump has agreed to debate me.  And, I look forward to that.  Hillary 

Clinton has not agreed to debate me here in California.  So, I look forward 

to debating Mr. Trump on that, because I think it is important that 

somebody hold him to task for his outrageously bigoted remarks.  


O`DONNELL:  With 166 days left for the campaign war rooms joining us 

tonight in the last war room, Lis Smith, the veteran of the O`Malley 

presidential campaign war room, and the Obama 2012 war room.  

Also, joining us is Alex Conant, a veteran of the Marco Rubio war room.  

Alex, so Donald Trump debating Bernie Sanders.  Is there a war room 

calculation on the Trump side that says, “Yes, let us do this?”  

ALEX CONANT, GOP STRATEGIST:  Yes, I mean, if I am in a Trump war room, 

this is a win/win for me, right?  A. You get to elevate Bernie Sanders, who 

is currently Hillary Clinton`s worst nightmare.  And, then on the other 

hand, you get to dominate another week`s forth of media.

And, you get to out and fight a socialist on behalf of conservatives.  

Donald Trump is having trouble uniting the Republican Party.  I saw just 

today, Speaker Ryan says, again, saying he is not ready to endorse Donald 

Trump.  I think Trump debating Bernie Sanders will only help with that 


O`DONNELL:  But Lis, this would be Donald Trump going against someone who 

is actually opposed to everything that he is saying, including the tax cut, 



O`DONNELL:  And, So, it would be his first engagement with a Democratic 

Party principle in the debate.  

SMITH:  Yes, it would be, but I think – you know, I cannot believe this, 

but I completely agree with everything that Alex just said.  An,  I think 

there are a few things here that work out to Donald Trump`s advantage.  

Number one is this would be a media spectacle, and he is the king of media 


This would be like the four men – the  holy field matchup of 2016, and, if 

he really tries – when he gets to play the role of the entertainer.  And, 

I also think that is the fact he is elevating Sanders naturally will hurt 

Clinton.  It sucks the oxygen out of her campaign.  What is she going to be 

doing?  Like twiddling her thumbs in Brooklyn when they are doing this?  

O`DONNELL:  But, Alex, Bernie Sanders could land some holes.  Donald Trump 

has never faced this kind of debate.  

CONANT:  Right, you never want to get into the ring with somebody who has 

nothing to lose, right?


SMITH:  Right.

CONANT:  Bernie Sanders at this point has nothing to lose.  So, that is the 

one risk.  But look, Trump has had more debates, 16 or 17 republican 

debates.  I know, because I was in the Rubio war room.  And, he did very 

well in each of those debates.  He is showing to be a good debater.  I 

think if I am in the Trump campaign, why not?  

O`DONNELL:  Let us listen to what Donald Trump said today about this 

possible debate.


TRUMP:  I would love to debate Bernie.  He is a dream.  He said, what we 

will do is that we can raise for maybe women`s health issues or something.  

If we can raise 10 or $15 million for charity, which would be a very 

appropriate amount, I understand the television business very well.  I 

think it would get very high ratings.  It should be in a big arena 

somewhere.  And, we could have a lot of fun with it.  I would love to 

debate Bernie.  


O`DONNELL:  So, the deal has to be, if they raise charitable money, none of 

it goes near Donald Trump.  

SMITH:  Right.  

O`DONNELL:  That is where the charitable money disappears.  The veterans 

never get their money.  

SMITH:  Right.  Now, the sanders campaign need to be in full control of 

handling the charitable donations.  I think him saying that as kind of his 

way of joking about it and making it less like everybody is going to do it.  

But, I am mostly terrified of the thought of another kind of charity, you 

know, the faux thing that he does – 

O`DONNELL:  No, I mean, I began – I mean, last night I saw that moment 

happen on Jimmy Kimmel.  And, then all day I was thinking there is no 

chance.  Trump would never do this.  You are starting to make me think that 

this is possible.  

I just think if I am in the Trump war room, I am terrified that my guy has 

a glass jaw.  He has never been in a real debate, on the real principles, 

the differences between the republicans and democrats.  I would be so 

afraid of letting Donald Trump take a chance against Bernie Sanders.  

CONANT:  Well, I believe on a current trajectory point, Donald Trump is 

going to lose this fall, because he has not been able to unite republicans 

and that alone convince other swing voters to join his class, which we need 

to do as republicans if we are going to win this fall.  

I think a debate with Bernie Sanders is a risk worth taking at the stage.  

The potential benefits of going in there and landing, a couple of punches 

against Bernie Sanders far outweigh in my mind, the potential benefits that 

Sanders is going – 

O`DONNELL:  He is going to call him a communist – 

SMITH:  Yes.

O`DONNELL:  He is going to do all that stuff.

CONANT:  Of course, but none of that is – I mean, my boss, Marco Rubio – 

my former boss did that, too, but it did not stick to them – 

O`DONNELL:  Yes.  And, I got to say, when I saw Marco Rubio to the first 

day of doing con man and all that stuff, I thought, “Wow, this is going to 

work.”  Because it just sounded so real, but it did not work with 

republican voters.  

SMITH:  But every day, you are in the war room, you are thinking how can I 

diminish Hillary Clinton.  How can I hurt her?  And, that is what they are 

thinking every day in Donald Trump`s war room.  And by elevating Bernie 

Sanders, they are hurting Hillary Clinton.  

And, think about all of this.  From all the earned media, he can get from 

this, all of the spectacle, Bernie Sanders could get enough momentum to 

pull off an upset in California, that would be really, really bad for 

Hillary Clinton.  

O`DONNELL:  But, is not there also – Also, it is such a risky proposition, 

because the truth is you do not know what is going to happen.  

CONANT:  Right.

O`DONNELL:  It is possible that you could come out of this debate saying – 

which is not an unusual sensation in the debates this year saying “Gee, I 

am for someone who was not on that stage freight.”  There is a way this 

could work to Hillary Clinton`s benefit.

CONANT:  Absolutely, I do not think there is all bad for Hillary Clinton. 

SMITH:  Right.

CONANT:  I think that if there is a food fight between Bernie Sanders and 

Donald Trump, it elevates Hillary Clinton, in the sense it makes her – I 

cannot believe I am saying this as a republican.  But, it almost makes her 

seem more presidential if she is the adult, which is clearly how she is 

trying to position herself for this one.  

She is the one that is presidential.  She is the one that has governing 

experience.  She is the one that can bring America together is what she 

says, and Trump, by debating Sanders does not cut into that.  

SMITH:  But the flip side of that, though, and I am a democrat saying this 

is that, it also highlights that Trump and Sanders are the candidates who 

are animating people, bringing the excitement, bringing the passion to this 


And, she is running this joyless, plodding campaign.  So, I think that it 

does have both ways.  It is a very risky proposition.  But, this is a guy 

who likes risks.  

O`DONNELL:  Alex, quickly, before we go.  Marco Rubio today, basically, 

saying basically, “Yes, OK.  I am on board with the Trump thing.  It was 

not a wholehearted endorsement.  Let us go.  He did say he would be willing 

to do whatever the campaign asked him to do, go out and make speeches.  

How does he do that when we are going to show – whenever he does it, I am 

telling you right now.  We are going to run Marco Rubio saying con man, con 

man, con man, and then the good thing he said about Trump today.  

CONANT:  I think that the policy differences between Donald Trump and Marco 

Rubio are very well established.  Those have not changed.  That said, Marco 

does not want Hillary Clinton to be president.  I do not want Hillary 

Clinton to be president.  So, that leaves, more so like myself will remain 

neutral in a tough spot for Marco.  He is going to support Trump – 

O`DONNELL:  But, remember, the video we are going to show, where Marco 

Rubio goes out there for Trump will not say a word about policy.  It will 

just be con man, con man.  It will just be all those words about his 


CONANT:  And, again, that is why he is saying I will do whatever the Trump 

campaign says – 

O`DONNELL:  That is right.  They might not be talking about it because of 

that.  Right.  Lis Smith and Alex Conant, thank you both for joining us 


I really appreciate it.  

CONANT:  Thanks, Lawrence.

O`DONNELL:  Coming up, the wall Donald Trump wants to build.  The other 

wall.  The one to fight global warming.  



O`DONNELL:  When you try to figure out what Donald Trump really believes, 

the best way to do that might be to ignore what he actually says and follow 

the money, the Trump money, especially when it comes to global warming.  

That is next.  But first, here is how it looks today on the campaign trail.  


STEVE KORNACKI, MSNBC HOST:  We are now 166 days until the election.  



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER (voice-over):  The paul ryan conversation last 

night, have you been digging into that?  



UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER:  The call has been characterized as quote, 

unquote, “Good.”  



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER:  Can you elaborate on that?  

TRUMP:  No.  It is just we had a very good talk.  




magic number of delgates.



HALLIE JACKSON, NBC CORRESPONDENT:  Trump has now hit that magic number 

before Hillary Clinton has on the democratic side.  



MITCHELL (voice-over):  Now, he celebrate by facing off with Bernie Sanders 

in a debate.



TRUMP:  I would love to debate Bernie, actually.  I mean, the problem with 

debating Bernie is he is going to lose.  



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER:  if it happens, it will be one of the most 

notable moments in presidential politics in quite a long time.  



JACKSON:  President Obama appears eager and ready to go to take Trump on, 




JOSE DIAZ-BALART, NBC ANCHOR:  President Obama in Japan this morning says 

leaders around the globe are quote, “Rattled by the possibility of a Trump 





PRES. BARACK OBAMA, (D) U.S. PRESIDENT:  I think it is fair to say they are 

surprised by the republican nominee.  



TRUMP:  When you rattle someone, that is good.  



HILLARY CLINTON, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE:  The last thing we need is a 

bully in the White House.  



MITCHELL:  The democrats remain locked in what looks like a very close race 

here in California.  




report yesterday is overshadowing Secretary Clinton`s campaign.  



CLINTON:  It was a mistake, I should have had two separate accounts.  



KASIE HUNT, MSNBC CORRESPONDENT:  She somehow has to be much more tactical 

than she has been in the past.  



CLINTON:  The only thing standing between Donald Trump and the oval office 

is all of us.     



TRUMP:  We are going to cancel the Paris Climate Agreement, and stop –


Unbelievable.  And stop all payments of the United States tax dollars to 

U.N. global warming programs.  



O`DONNELL:  As a politician, Donald Trump follows his party line as a 

global warming denier.  Of course, it is impossible to know if he really 

believes that.  But as a businessman, it might be easier to figure out what 

he believes by following the money.  

And, in Donald Trump`s case, he wants to spend money to fight global 

warming.  But just on one small speck of the planet, a golf course on the 

coast of Ireland that bears his name, Donald Trump has petitioned the 

government there to allow him to protect the golf course from rising sea 

levels due to global warming by building a wall.  

A wall that Donald Trump says he will pay for.  That is how much he 

believes in global warming as it affects exactly one golf course in 

Ireland.  Joining us now, former republican congressman Bob Inglis of South 

Carolina, who is now executive director at Republican.Org, which advocates 

a realist approach to solving climate`s change.  

Bob Inglis, so there is Donald Trump with the party line.  It is absolutely 

not happening, do not worry about it, except on my golf course in Ireland.  

FMR. REP. BOB INGLIS, (R-SC) FMR. U.S. CONGRESSMAN:  Yes, it is really – 

it is like me hearing you say, you know that you are going ahead, and I 

say, “Yes, yes, keep going.”  Pedal to the metal, when I know the bridge is 

out on the road ahead.  You know, it is really quite diabolical to give a 

warning to people.  

The smart money is already moving on climate change.  Donald Trump is 

apparently part of that smart money, but he tells the crowd, it just sort 

of amplifies what they are hearing from other sources.  The bridge is not 

out.  Pedal to the metal.  

O`DONNELL:  Let us listen to more about what Donald Trump said about the 

Paris climate accords today.  


TRUMP:  President Obama entered the United States into the Paris Climate 

Accord, unilaterally, and without the permission of congress.  This 

agreement gives foreign bureaucrats control over how much our energy and 

how much we use right here in America.  So, foreign bureaucrats are going 

to be controlling what we are using and what we are doing on our land in 

our country.  No way.  


O`DONNELL:  Bob, your reaction to that.  

INGLIS:  Well, of course it is completely incorrect.  But that is the 

problem, you know, with responding to really just anything that Trump says.  

It is not rational what he says.  And, so, when people like me respond and 

try to make sense out of it, you know, the joke is sort of on us, because 

it really is a joke.  It is not for real.  And, so, he says these things 

that are just simply are not correct.  But, those of us who try to respond 

rationally, I think the joke is on us.  

O`DONNELL:  You lost your seat in congress in the republican primary where 

this was one of the issues.  You tried to speak clearly about this issue.  

Is this the way it is going to continue to work in the Republican Party?  

INGLIS:  No, I do not think so.  I think that Donald Trump is about to fly 

the grumpy old party plane straight into the mountain side.  And, out of 

the ashes of that plane crash might come the grand opportunity party.  That 

party will be very different.   

It will be a movement of people who really do believe in the power of free 

enterprise to solve challenges, and who really stick to principles and who 

figure out ideas and then follow those ideas rather than just saying 

whatever comes to mind and having like I say, the rest of us sort of try to 

treat it seriously.  But when we do that really the joke is on us.  

O`DONNELL:  Former republican member of congress, Bob Inglis, thank you 

very much for joining us tonight.  I appreciate it.  

INGLIS:  Good to be with you.  

O`DONNELL:  Coming up, a “Last Word” on Donald Trump, Elizabeth Warren, 

Pocahontas and what Donald Trump does not know about Pocahontas.  


O`DONNELL:  And, now tonight`s “Last Word,” which is, Pocahontas.  During 

their centuries of imperialistic rule of Ireland, the English decided they 

needed a name for the Irish, a slur, something that would serve the purpose 

of all slurs against all racists, ethnicities and religions.  Something 

that would render that group sub-human.  

That is what those words are meant to do.  The “N” word is meant to 

categorize all black people as sub human, not worthy of human rights.  One 

of the names the English came up with for the Irish was paddy.  An a 

abbreviation of the quintessential Irish name, Patrick.  

And, that is the model for Donald Trump`s use of the word Pocahontas.  

Massachusetts Senator Elizabeth Warren is from Oklahoma and she says she 

has a small fraction of her ancestry that is Native American.  And, that is 

apparently all Donald Trump knows about Elizabeth Warren.  


UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER:  Warren, she seems to have made it her job.  

TRUMP:  Who?  Pocahontas?  Look.  Look.  She is –


TRUMP:  Well, I am sorry about that.  Pocahontas, she is a senator that is 

highly overrated.  She has passed very little legislation.  She has been a 

real disaster for a lot of people including the democrats who frankly 

cannot stand her.  

I think she is as native American as I am.  OK?   That I will tell you.  

But she is a woman who has been very ineffective, other than she has a big 



O`DONNELL:  So, the candidate with the big mouth does not think Elizabeth 

Warren has Native American ancestry.  Donald Trump does not like to discuss 

his own ancestry, because as John Oliver recently revealed, you do not have 

to go far back to find the name change that gave Donald Trump his current 

last name.  



Trump is the cornerstone of his brand.  If only they were able to uncouple 

that magical word from the man who really is.  Well, guess what?  There is.  

Because it turns out the name Trump was not always his family`s name.  One 

viable they found that a present ancestor had changed it from – and this 

is true, Drumpf.  Yes.  He is Drumpf and Drumpf, is much less magical.  


O`DONNELL:  One of the many questions that Donald Drumph has provoked but 

will never be asked of him, is who was Pocahontas?  What are the odds of 

Donald Trump getting that question right?  Was Pocahontas a fictional 

character in a Disney cartoon or a real person?  

There is no way that Donald Drumph knows that Pocahontas was a real person 

born about 1596.  We do not know exactly when, because of course Native 

American tribes were not issuing birth certificates.  She is famous for 

having befriended the English settlers of Jamestown, Virginia.

John Smith wrote a glowing letter to Queen Anne claiming that Pocahontas 

saved his life when her father was about to have Smith executed.  In John 

Smith`s version, Pocahontas laid her head on his head so that smith could 

not be beheaded without Pocahontas suffering the same fate. 

In his letter to the queen, John Smith said, “She hazarded the beating out 

of her own brains to save mine.  And not only that, but so prevailed with 

her father that I was safely conducted to Jamestown.”  In Smith`s original 

account of that dangerous encounter with that tribe, Pocahontas was not 


And, so, historians doubt the accuracy of his letter to the queen.  But, 

that is the version of Pocahontas that has passed through the centuries and 

is now the stuff of Disney animation.  The reporter that you just heard ask 

Donald Trump about Elizabeth Warren is Nicole Robertson.  She is Native 

American.  Here was her reaction to Donald Trump`s use of the word 

Pocahontas today.  


NICOLE ROBERTSON, FREELANCE REPORTER:  I believe that Mr. Trump and his 

tone was offensive today.  If there was other young indigenous or Native 

American young girls sitting here, what is that signaling to them?  As 

young Native American girls?  


O`DONNELL:  What that is signaling to them is that if they work their way 

through law school and become a Harvard Law School professor or if they 

become senators, no matter what they do in their lives, Donald Trump will 

reduce them to one word.  Donald Trump will do everything he can to rob 

them of all of their accomplishments and reduce them to one word.  

And, in doing that, Donald Trump is following the model set out for him 

hundreds of years ago by the people who needed to believe that the people 

they did not like were sub human.  That everything that could and should be 

said about them is reducible to one word.  

Every group knows what that word is for them.  The Jews know the one word 

labels that anti-Semites use for them.  We all know the one word labeled 

that was invented for black people.  If some Native American young girls 

heard Donald Trump use that word today, no one would have to explain to 

them what he was trying to do with that word.  

Here is something the most ignorant person who has ever run for president 

does not know about the word he used today.  Pocahontas was not her real 

name.  She and her tribe decided to hide her real name from the English 

settlers.  Historian William Stiff explained why in his book published in 

1865, titled “The History of the First Discovery and Settlement of 


William Stiff wrote, “Her real name it seems was originally Matoaka, which 

the Indians carefully concealed from the English and changed it to 

Pocahontas out of a superstitious fear by the knowledge of her true name 

should be enabled to do her some hurt.   

And, tonight, 400 years later, the republican candidate for president is 

trying to do Elizabeth Warren some hurt by throwing a name at her that was 

invented by Native Americans to protect a young woman.  And, that is 

tonight`s “Last Word.”  Chris Hayes is up next.


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