The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell, Transcript 5/2/2016

Guests:
Rick Wilson, David McIntosh, Liz Mair, Howard Dean, John Brabender, Rebecca Katz, Bob Kerrey
Transcript:

Show: THE LAST WORD WITH LAWRENCE O`DONNELL
Date: May 2, 2016
Guest: Rick Wilson, David McIntosh, Liz Mair, Howard Dean, John Brabender,
Rebecca Katz, Bob Kerrey


RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC HOST: That does it for us tonight, and now again, a
really special thank you to our interview guest tonight, Bill Vogt(ph), now
it`s time for THE LAST WORD with Lawrence O`Donnell.

Good evening Lawrence.

LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, MSNBC HOST: Hey, Rachel –

MADDOW: Hey –

O`DONNELL: So, imagine if you will, and this is going to be very hard for
you. That you are kind of a low information voter, very low.

MADDOW: OK –

O`DONNELL: And so you`re at a political rally and you`re not sure whether
this is a Democrat or a Republican political rally.

(LAUGHTER)

Imagine that –

MADDOW: Very low information –

O`DONNELL: What do you think might be one way of guessing which it is?

MADDOW: I am tempted to say the racial demographic of the audience, but –

O`DONNELL: It could be, depending on where you are geographically, you
know, because you could be at a –

MADDOW: Yes –

O`DONNELL: Democratic rally, you know –

MADDOW: Right –

O`DONNELL: In Idaho, they have them. Here is what I would suggest. I
would suggest to you, it`s all in the audience reaction to the word
spanking.

(LAUGHTER)

That gives you –

MADDOW: I don`t know –

(CROSSTALK)

O`DONNELL: Everything you need –

MADDOW: Audience reaction to the word spanking right now, maybe or –

O`DONNELL: Yes –

MADDOW: Yes –

O`DONNELL: I want, you know what? I did want to see your reaction to the
word –

MADDOW: Yes –

O`DONNELL: Spanking. And so –

MADDOW: Now, you have to guess if I`m a Democrat or a Republican.

(LAUGHTER)

O`DONNELL: Actually, your reaction is tricky.

MADDOW: Yes –

O`DONNELL: It`s not as easy to interpret as the one we`re going to see
coming up in this segment.

MADDOW: I like to be mysterious –

O`DONNELL: One word spanking is news at a political rally.

MADDOW: Well done, my friend, thank you –

O`DONNELL: Thank you, Rachel.

(LAUGHTER)

We will be joined tonight by a Democrat, prominent Democrat who supports
Hillary Clinton and thinks that the way she handled her state department e-
mail was a serious mistake.

Also tonight, a leading political conservative is hoping now for a 50-state
loss for Donald Trump if he is the Republican nominee.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The end of the Republic has
never looked better.

(LAUGHTER)

SEN. TED CRUZ (R-TX), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The entire country is
relying on Indiana to save us from going over this cliff.

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Honestly, if we win Indiana,
it`s over.

OBAMA: Ted had a tough week.

TRUMP: And I want to take that television and I want to smack it.

OBAMA: Eight years ago, I said it was time to change the tone of our
politics.

CRUZ: America is a better country without you.

OBAMA: In hindsight, I clearly should have been more specific.

(LAUGHTER)

CHUCK TODD, MODERATOR, MEET THE PRESS: Are you going to support Donald
Trump if he`s the nominee?

CRUZ: I am going to beat Donald Trump. Donald Trump is deceiving. He is
playing you for a chump.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Will you vote for Donald Trump if he`s the nominee?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I doubt it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m (INAUDIBLE) –

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Danny, you voted for?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Bernie Sanders.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I am serious.

HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We cannot let Barack Obama`s
legacy fall into Donald Trump`s hands.

TRUMP: She`s a disaster.

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I-VT), DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We`re going
to fight for every last vote.

CLINTON: Wow, I love that.

SANDERS: The convention will be a contested contest.

OBAMA: I just have two more words to say – Obama out.

(APPLAUSE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL: We begin tonight with a political quiz. Which presidential
candidate said the following words about whom?

So, there are two things you have to guess here. Who is the person
speaking and who is the person speaking about?

Here are just some of the words the candidate has used to describe this
person. Political moron, stupid, dummy, dopey.

All right, by now many of you are guessing that this is Donald Trump`s
description of someone.

Actually, all of you are guessing that and of course you`re completely
right. It`s Donald Trump talking now.

Here`s one more clue about who Donald Trump is talking about. Dumbest and
most overrated political commentator of all time.

Now, I know some of you, many of you are guessing that that`s Donald Trump
talking about me and you would be right in that he has called me dopey and
four years ago, when he was predicting the immediate cancellation of this
show, he did say that I was – and I`ve got it memorized, “the dumbest man
on TV”.

So, f you guessed he was talking about me, you came really close. But in
Donald Trump`s world, the dumbest and most overrated political commentator
of all time is conservative Republicans leading public, intellectual,
Pulitzer Prize-winning columnist George Will.

In George Will`s most recent column, he says that if the “Stop Trump”
movement fails in stopping Donald Trump from getting the Republican
nomination, then Republicans should join – should join the “Never Trump”
movement and then stop Donald Trump from winning the presidency.

George Will writes, “this is a time for prudence, which demands the
prevention of a Trump presidency.

Were he to be nominated, conservatives would have two tasks, one would be
to help him lose 50 states, condign punishment for his comprehensive
disdain for conservative essentials including the manners and grace that
should lubricate the nation`s civic life.

Second conservatives can try to save from the anti-Trump under-toe as many
senators, representatives, governors and state legislators as possible.”

George Will says that then the Republican Party`s job will be confining
President Hillary Clinton to a single term.

Today in Indiana, Ted Cruz did something that very few presidential
candidates have ever done, and that Donald Trump would absolutely never
dream of doing.

Ted Cruz spoke to supporters of the candidate he`s opposing.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You are the problem –

(CROSSTALK)

CRUZ: Let me ask you something –

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You are the problem –

CRUZ: All right –

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Politician, you are the problem –

(CROSSTALK)

CRUZ: Can I ask you something? –

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No –

CRUZ: Can I ask you something? –

(CROSSTALK)

Of all the political candidates, name one who had a million dollar judgment
against him for hiring illegals?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Name one –

CRUZ: Donald Trump is –

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Self-funded –

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Vote for –

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s right –

CRUZ: OK –

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not you –

CRUZ: So, you like rich people who buy politicians –

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where`s your daughter? Where`s your Goldman Sachs
jacket at? We know your wife works there.

CRUZ: Actually, I was supported by and supported by 1.3 million
contributions.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How long –

CRUZ: With all this stats, Donald Trump is deceiving you. He is playing
you for a chump.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL: And you see there, a classic encounter with Trump supporters.

When Ted Cruz points out Donald Trump`s own history of employing
undocumented workers, the Trump supporter does not even attempt to defend
Donald Trump on that point.

The Trump supporter simply changes the subject too in this case, Donald
Trump being a self-funding candidate and Ted Cruz didn`t bother then to
correct that falsehood.

Donald Trump is not a self-funding candidate. He has collected $12 million
in campaign contributions.

The Ted Cruz campaign apparently set a record yesterday for youngest person
ejected from a political rally.

Apparently, all Donald Trump supporters sound like Donald Trump, including
the 10-year-olds.

A 10-year-old boy at the Ted Cruz event last night yelled out something
that the microphones couldn`t pick up but the audience could hear and we
will now show you that moment using subtitles.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CRUZ: Apparently, there`s a young man who`s having some problems.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You suck.

CRUZ: Thank you, son. You know, I appreciate you sharing your views. You
know, one of the things that hopefully someone has told you is that
children should actually speak with respect.

(CHEERS)

(APPLAUSE)

Imagine what a different world it would be if someone had told Donald Trump
that years ago.

(CHEERS)

(APPLAUSE)

You know, in my household, when a child behaves that way, they get a
spanking.

(CHEERS)

(APPLAUSE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL: See?! You can always tell whether it`s a Democrat or Republican
event by how much applause the word “spanking” gets.

Joining us now, Nbc News reporter Hallie Jackson, who is in Indianapolis
covering the Ted Cruz campaign.

Also, with us, David McIntosh, former Republican representative from
Indiana and the president of the Club for Growth.

And Rick Wilson, an adviser to the anti-Trump Super PAC, Make America
Awesome. He`s a contributor of the “Daily Beast, “POLITICO” and “Heat
Streak”.

Rick, what`s your reaction to – what was your reaction when you read that
“Washington Post” column by George Will saying what we need, we –
conservatives need if Donald Trump is the nominee is a 50-state defeat of
Trump and Trumpism.

RICK WILSON, ADVISER, MAKE AMERICA AWESOME SUPER PAC: Well, I was – I was
heartened by it and you know, it doesn`t surprise me.

George Will is a principled conservative and has been one for his entire
adult life.

He`s been a voice in this movement since many of us were in – were in
grade school. And his credentials are impeccable as a conservative.

And it`s certainly with something that is heartening like I said to all the
folks at the “Never Trump” movement who understand and who fought for a
long time now about the devastation he can – he can wreak on both the
conservative movement and on the Republican Party.

It`s an existential threat to both of them, frankly, if he becomes – if he
becomes the nominee.

O`DONNELL: David, how worried are Republicans about the down-ballot
effects of a Trump nominee?

DAVID MCINTOSH, PRESIDENT, CLUB FOR GROWTH: Well, very worried. I mean,
it`s one of the reasons we`re dedicating a lot of resources to defeat him
and help Ted Cruz become the nominee and get the nomination.

We think he`d do a lot better in the Fall, actually, I think he can win and
beat Hillary Clinton.

But certainly, he won`t have places like Arizona and Utah where Hillary has
a chance to beat Donald Trump or we could lose Senator McCain in the Senate
there.

Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Florida, New Hampshire, Illinois are all states
where Republicans need to keep the senator –

HALLIE JACKSON, NBC NEWS: Well, I just –

MCINTOSH: In order to have a majority in the Senate for the next cycle.

O`DONNELL: And if Trump gets the nomination, do you continue to oppose
him? Do you go silent? What do you do?

MCINTOSH: We work really hard right now to make sure he doesn`t get the
nomination. And I think Ted Cruz has a good chance to win tomorrow in
Indiana and that will put him on a path to win that.

We`ll decide what to do afterwards, I can tell you this, we won`t support
Hillary Clinton.

But we`ll probably focus on those Senate and house races. The second thing
that George Will pointed out, Republicans will need to protect what they
have in the house and the Senate.

O`DONNELL: Hallie Jackson, an extraordinary moment in Indiana today with
Ted Cruz just walking right up to Trump supporters and engaging with them -
-

JACKSON: Yes –

O`DONNELL: Despite them at first, you know, trying to just hurling insults
at them and he didn`t back away from it, it was really fascinating to
watch.

JACKSON: And remember that on the campaign trail, Lawrence, Cruz has
engaged with the protesters before.

If somebody interrupts his rally, he sometimes will draw them into a
conversation or at least attempt to.

Well, what was striking about this moment, it seemed to be kind of an ink
blot test for how you view Ted Cruz.

Supporters on the one hand saw somebody, a candidate, who went up, who had
a conversation, who engaged in what they saw as a respectful and civil
manner.

Tried to convince them to sort of come to the other side. People who
oppose Ted Cruz saw somebody who got essentially in the vernacular of the
internet-owned by some of these Trump supporters.

Given that they were going back at him, yelling at him, things like “lying
Ted”, yelling at him about Goldman Sachs, as he played a little clip up
there.

But he was sort of this microcosm, right of where this campaign is right
now. Cruz trying to make his case against opponents who are so fervent in
their support for Donald Trump.

O`DONNELL: All right, Rick Wilson, one of the extraordinary events of last
week was not just the Trump foreign policy speech, so-called.

But the Chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee Bob Corker, an
otherwise serious man actually receiving that speech with some warmth and
real positive comment.

And I just – when I heard that, I just went and looked at – OK, what were
the election returns in Tennessee, in his state?

And of course, Trump won big there. And how much of that effect do you
expect to see as we go forward here with senators checking the primary
results in their state and the polling results in their state involving
Trump to decide what they`re then going to say about Trump?

WILSON: Well, I wrote in “Heat Streak” today, you`re going to see the
(INAUDIBLE) Republicans on the one hand who think that there`s some
political advantage to Trump.

And you`re going to see the rest of them that can do the math in re-polling
who are going to be running for the hills like a scalded dog when they look
at how bad Trump`s numbers are.

And when they look at the radiation coming off of him, it`s going to damage
their races.

And if you look at Republican candidates in states like Colorado and
Florida and Nevada, you`re going to find that those places with Republicans
now polling Hispanics numbers in the low teens or mid teens as opposed to
the 30s.

You know, Donald Trump isn`t helping. In fact, he`s like an anchor around
their necks dragging them down.

And while Trump`s people may love that outcome, it certainly something
that`s self-preservation and you think is going to kick in with a lot of
these folks and they`re going to put some distance between themselves and
Donald Trump.

Particularly because if Hillary Clinton is smart, and she`s not a dumb
person, they`re going to start running ads that describe everyone else in
the Republican Party as a Donald Trump Republican.

They`re going to start making people answer for all of Donald Trump`s
idiotic statements and poisonous comments.

And so, you`re going to end up having to play defense in a lot of these
races.

And that is why Will and others have advocated that we start to mount a
separation between the messaging of down-ballot candidates and Donald Trump
if he`s the nominee.

I would like Donald Trump to be the loneliest nominee in history if he gets
– if he somehow squeeze it through at the convention.

Because, you know, having him out there on the trail is not going to turn
out – not going to turn out Republicans.

It`s going to turn out Trump folks and it`s going to also hype up
Democratic turnout to unseen levels.

So, that`s why we want an air gap between human Republicans and Donald
Trump Republicans.

O`DONNELL: Yes, your point about Trump Republicans is in the next segment,
we`re going to show a Democratic ad in a Senate campaign that`s already out
there trying to label the Republican simply as a Trump Republican.

David, you said you think Ted Cruz has a chance of pulling it off tomorrow
in Indiana.

Let`s take a look at the latest Nbc News Marist poll on Indiana. It shows
Donald Trump at 49, it shows Ted Cruz at 34, John Kasich at 13.

What do you know about Indiana voters and I`m sure you do –

MCINTOSH: Yes, having won elections there.

O`DONNELL: What do you know about Indiana voters that you don`t see in
that poll?

MCINTOSH: Well, a couple of things. There have been some other polls that
actually flipped it where local state, Indiana state polls had Cruz ahead.

I think what`s really going on in our nightly tracking at the Super PAC is
that, there`s a big block about 25, maybe even more percent of the voters
haven`t made up their mind.

And so, in one poll, they lean one way and one poll, they lean another, and
what has happened is, you`ve seen a couple of things that will help Ted –
he announced Carly Fiorina and he –

O`DONNELL: How does that help him?

MCINTOSH: Oh –

O`DONNELL: How does that help him?

MCCINTOSH: One of the things that has happened is he was having trouble
with women Republican voters in suburbs.

They knew they didn`t like Trump, but they thought, well, maybe Kasich, he
seems more our type of guy.

Now they realize Kasich is not viable and they were – cannot vote for
Cruz. I think that gives them a reason.

Yes, he works with a secure, strong, successful woman and he`s going to put
her on the ticket.

O`DONNELL: All right, so, you see that as helping him with Republican
women voters in the primaries? –

MCCINTOSH: I do, I absolutely do.

O`DONNELL: OK, we`re going to have to –

MCINTOSH: The other –

O`DONNELL: Sorry –

(CROSSTALK)

Dave, we`re going to have to break it there –

MCINTOSH: Yes –

O`DONNELL: Keep this – keep this show running on time. Hallie Jackson,
David McIntosh and Rick Wilson, thank you all for joining us tonight,
really appreciate it.

WILSON: Thanks, Lawrence –

MCINTOSH: My pleasure.

O`DONNELL: Coming up, one Democratic Senate campaign is already – as I
said already trying to turn the Republican Senate candidate into what Rick
Wilson now calls a Trump Republican.

And in the war room tonight, plotting how Hillary Clinton can attack Donald
Trump.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O`DONNELL: What is the worst reason you`ve ever heard for divorce? Like,
just the silliest reason for people getting divorced?

Well, you might hear that tonight in our election confessions segment where
someone is confessing to contemplating divorce over how her spouse votes.

That`s coming up in election confessions.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O`DONNELL: Donald Trump is the star of a new campaign ad, but it is not a
presidential campaign ad, it is an ad in the Senate race in Arkansas, where
Republican Senator John Boozman is running for re-election.

Democrat Conner Eldridge is now running this ad in the hopes of turning
John Boozman into a Trump Republican.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: She ate like a pig and I`d look at right in that fat, ugly face of
hers –

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She once sent her a picture of herself with the words
the face of a dog written on it.

TRUMP: The boob job is terrible. You know, they look like two (INAUDIBLE)
coming out of her body. Blood coming out of her – wherever.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So, you treat women with respect?

TRUMP: I can`t say that either.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`ll support the candidate regardless of who we pick,
whether Donald Trump, he certainly would be a lot better at the presidency.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL: Joining us now, Liz Mair; founder of the anti-Trump Super PAC
Make America Awesome.

Also with us is Howard Dean, Msnbc political analyst and a former DNC
chairman who has endorsed Hillary Clinton for president.

Liz Mair, so, there it is. What Rick Wilson was telling us was going to
happen is already happening.

LIZ MAIR, FOUNDER, MAKE AMERICA AWESOME SUPER PAC: Right –

O`DONNELL: The labeling of senate candidates, certainly house candidates,
Republican candidates, everywhere down to, you know, City Council of
labeling them as Trump Republicans.

MAIR: Right, I mean, this is something that I think that, you know, Rick
does work with our PAC also, and it`s something that really everybody who`s
involved with our Super PAC has foreseen for a long time.

You know, it`s hard to be specific about exactly how bad the damage will be
down-ballot if we do nominate Donald Trump.

But it is very clear that there is going to be substantial carnage and that
we are going to have a lot of attack ads run against candidates that are
going to be more brutal, far more credible from a sort of war on women
standpoint than really anything that we`ve seen recently.

And I think it`s going to be pretty rough for people. This is one of the
reasons that I think you`ll hear people from places like the Club for
Growth talking a lot about the need to focus on down-ballot races if Trump
does get the nomination.

Because frankly, it is going to be carnage in a lot of places I think.

O`DONNELL: And what`s so extraordinary about this is, all you have to do,
the standard for becoming a Trump Republican is to simply support the
Republican nominee for president.

MAIR: Right –

O`DONNELL: And John McCain, who we know by any reasonable definition is
not a Trump Republican, is subject to this. Let`s look at this ad on John
McCain.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Donald Trump is dangerous for America.

TRUMP: I could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody and
I wouldn`t lose any voters, OK?

I would bring back a hell of a lot worse than waterboarding.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But no matter what Donald Trump says, John McCain
would support him for president.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Including Donald Trump –

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: Oh, yes –

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You would support him?

MCCAIN: Oh, yes –

TRUMP: She said he`s a – I`d like to punch him in the face, I`ll tell
you.

(LAUGHTER)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Donald Trump –

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thirty years in Washington have changed John McCain.
We need leaders to stand up to Donald Trump.

REP. ANN KIRKPATRICK (D), ARIZONA: I am Ann Kirk Patrick and I approve
this message.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL: And Howard Dean, Ann Kirkpatrick is running tied in the polls
with John McCain at 42-42 at this point.

HOWARD DEAN, FORMER VERMONT GOVERNOR: The irony of this is that John
McCain by Arizona standards is a moderate and has often been challenged
from the right, now he`s getting hammered because apparently he`s not right
enough.

But this is extraordinary. You know, he`s been there a very long time and
voters get tired of people that have been there for a very long time.

But this actually could end John McCain`s career.

O`DONNELL: But Liz, John McCain at some point, if this continues is simply
going to have to come out or have to make the decision about do I come out
and say I am not supporting the Republican nominee for president.

MAIR: Yes, I assume that, that may be where this is going. I mean, I –
it`s very hard to say definitively, I have no inside knowledge as to John
McCain`s thought-process, but I will say that having worked to elect him in
2008 when Howard was chairing the DNC.

I certainly do think that there are a lot of areas where John McCain has
deep policy disagreements with Donald Trump and where it would be very hard
for him to say anything that would be in any way defensive of Donald Trump.

And so, I think that sort of distinguishing may happen as a matter of
course. I think with other people, that`s going to be a different
equation.

You know, as you talked about in the previous segment, obviously, Donald
Trump did win a lot of states in the south, including Tennessee.

So, I think if you`re looking at people in Tennessee, probably, their
calculation is going to be a little different.

But I think for people who come from, you know, a lot of mountain west in
Midwest states, states where perhaps Ted Cruz has performed a little better
or other candidates have performed a little better.

I think that they know already from looking at the primary and the caucus
results that Donald Trump is a liability and there`s going to be more of an
impetus for them to walk away from him.

O`DONNELL: So, Howard Dean, part of Paul Manafort`s answer to this for the
Trump campaign as yesterday on Sunday morning TV, saying, oh, don`t worry,
Trump is going to help raise a lot of money for the party.

And maybe lost in that is the slight of hand that will really, totally
eliminate any claim that Donald Trump is self-financing because he cannot
afford –

MAIR: Right –

O`DONNELL: A general election campaign and he will be raising money for
himself as well as the party. But Howard Dean, he – I mean, raising money
for the party isn`t easy.

You have to know how to do it.

DEAN: Yes, I think that`s going to be very tough. Because most of the
people with lots and lots of money who support Republicans are probably
going to invest in the Senate heavily.

They are going to figure that if Trump is going to lose the presidency,
that they need the senate as an insurance policy.

I – Liz is more of an expert on Republican politics than I am. What do
you think?

MAIR: Yes, I agree with that and I – to be fair, myself as a donor, I
have a history of investing in specific candidates that I like as opposed
to committees.

But certainly, there are a lot of people that I talk to who are bigger
donors, who have flat-out said that if Donald Trump is the nominee, they
will not vote – they will not donate to the Republican National Committee.

They will not donate to his presidential campaign. They will not donate to
any committee that is focused on the presidential level whatsoever.

Maybe they`ll donate to the NRSC, maybe they`ll donate to the NRCC. But
certainly nothing is going into the Republican National Committee if they
remain focused on the presidential race and nothing will be going into
Donald Trump`s campaign.

And I think that, that`s actually one of the factors that as Ted Cruz is
going around and recruiting delegates and focusing on the delegate-count,
that`s actually one of the factors that is very persuasive in Ted Cruz`s
favor.

For as much as there are a lot of establishment people who don`t love him,
he`s still seen as much better than Trump from a financial perspective.

DEAN: But you`ve got a big problem because if Trump gets 1,200 delegates
and not to 1,237, and you don`t give him the nomination, there`s going to
be a huge revolution in the – at the convention.

MAIR: I think – I think candidly, even if – even if Donald Trump were
walking into that convention with 500 delegates, we would have carnage in
the streets and we would have blood in the streets because he would incite
it.

O`DONNELL: Yes, he`d –

MAIR: I honestly think that –

O`DONNELL: It`s a pick your poison convention. Liz Mair and Howard Dean -
-

MAIR: Yes, it`s going to suck.

O`DONNELL: Thank you both very much for joining us, really appreciate it.

DEAN: Thanks, Lawrence –

MAIR: Thanks.

O`DONNELL: Coming up, former Senator Bob Kerrey will join us, he has
endorsed Hillary Clinton, but he thinks the way that the Secretary Clinton
handled her e-mail at the State Department was a mistake, a serious
mistake.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O`DONNELL: In the War Room tonight, I think we know how Donald Trump is
going to attack Hillary Clinton if she is the Democratic nominee for
president, but how will the Clinton campaign fight back? Nothing the
Republicans have tried has worked. That is the challenge facing the
Democratic War Room in the general election. But first, here`s how it
looked today on the campaign trail.

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Our teams of reporters are stationed around the state
of Indiana right now.

SEN. TED CRUZ (R-TX), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The entire country is
focusing on Indiana

BERTHA COOMBS, MSNBC REPORTER: The stop-Trump groups are running out of
money.

UNIDINTIFIED MALE: He could be shut out in Indiana and he would still have
a path to 1237.

KATY TUR, MSNBC REPORTER: They`re up by 15 points in the latest NBC News
Poll to poll that Donald Trump likes because it has him ahead.

CRUZ: I feel great. It feels really good.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ted Cruz had a hand in strengthening Donald Trump. Ted
Cruz is now pleading with those same voters to view Donald Trump as a
threat.

CRUZ: Sir, America is a better country without you.

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Is that guy here with the
sunglasses? Whoever he is, I thought he was very cool.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If it doesn`t go your way, do you stay in this race?

CRUZ: We are and for the distance.

TRUMP: You asked Kasich to drop out, it`s your turn.

We`re knocking them out, you know, like corn flakes, right?

UNIDINTIFIED MALE: Do we expect him to take the stage and say what he`s
been saying? If he wins Indiana, it`s over.

KRISTEN WELKER, MSNBC REPORTER: The race is very tight in Indiana.
Secretary Clinton has a narrow lead.

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I-VT), DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We are not
going to be intimated by the billionaire class.

WELKER: And the campaign really down playing expectations.

SANDERS: For corporate America.

CHRIS JANSING, MSNBC HOST: He`s looking to turn these superdelegates.

SANDERS: Or Wall Street.

JANSING: It is rowdy here and he is combative.

TRUMP: Tomorrow, we`ve got to get out and vote.

CRUZ: Tomorrow`s so important.

UNIDINTIFIED MALE: We are headed to a contested convention.

SANDERS: Let us tomorrow have the biggest turnout in Indiana history.
Thank you all.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O`DONNELL: Time for tonight`s Campaign War Room. The War Room is the most
important place to be in any Presidential Campaign, it`s where the
strategic decisions are made that win and lose campaign. Campaigns in our
War Room tonight, we`ll be joined as usual by two veterans of Presidential
Campaign War Rooms.

The Clinton War Room clearly believes that it`s important now to remind
voters how Donald Trump`s political career really began.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The leading Republican,
contender is the man, who lead the insidious birther movement to discredit
the president`s citizenship. We cannot let Barack Obama`s legacy fall into
Donald Trump`s hands.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL: If Hillary Clinton wins the Democratic nomination, the Clinton
War Room will have to contend with something that no other major party
nominee has ever faced childish mocking and ridicule from the opponent.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I saw the other night, Hillary Clinton, she`s got a teleprompter
and we will travel north and south, and east and west, and I would say that
she started screaming at the teleprompter but I`m not allowed to say that.
You know why? Now, if she was a man, I could say it, but as a woman,
ladies, I`m sorry, I`m not allowed to say it. She was screaming at the
teleprompter but I will not say it, OK?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL: Joining us in the War Room tonight, John Brabender a Veteran of
Rick Santorum`s Presidential Campaigns and Rebecca Katz a Veteran John
Edwards` 2004 Presidential Campaign.

Rebecca, you know, a lot of people they watch that stuff and just think,
“Oh, silly, silly, silly.” But when you`re looking at those monitors in
the War Room now, Clinton War Room of Trump rallies and Trump saying these
kinds of things, you got to think very, very seriously how do you reply to
that, do you reply to that, which things do you reply to, which things
don`t you reply to?

REBECCA KATZ, NATIONAL SURROGATE, EDWARDS 2004: Great. And the good news
for the Clinton campaign is that Donald Trump can`t win the presidency on
white men alone, right? Like America is bigger than that. So, what they
have to do is really pick their spots and show, you know. Usually if your
opponent says something egregious, you`re going to hit him for it but
because that`s every other word of Donald Trump`s, they pick their spots
and they go to the audience and they hit it home.

O`DONNELL: And, John, in a Democratic primary, Hillary Clinton and Bernie
Sanders, they can argue with each other about whether a given proposal they
have is adequately funded by what they`re doing in taxation or other budget
adjustments, you know, this kind of serious accounting prove to me that
your program will work. That sort of thing seems to have nothing to do
with dealing with Donald Trump as a political candidate. So, when you`re
in the Clinton War Room and accustomed to challenging whether Bernie
Sanders has fully paid for his health care plan, do you go after Donald
Trump`s health care plan?

JOHN BRABENDER, REPUBLICAN POLITICAL CONSULTANT: First of all, you have to
understand, in the War Room, the very first thing you do is you sit there
and say, “Who are we talking to?”

O`DONNELL: Yes.

BRABENDER: And this fall, I think, both campaigns will say, “We`re talking
to blue collar Democrats and we`re talking to soft and moderate
Republicans.” That becomes the main players in play and obviously, there
will be some gender targeting as well.

But what everybody has to understand is all the rules that have gotten us
here are all thrown out the window this year, and the phenomena of Donald
Trump, you cannot understand it by looking at Donald Trump, you have to
look at his supporters, they`re very frustrated, they feel disenfranchised
by both parties and they`re ready to make a statement this year and frankly
the Clinton people, I think, are smart enough to understand that.

O`DONNELL: Let`s listen to what Katrina Pierson, Trump`s Spokesman, said
about how the Trump Campaign will or whether it will deal with Bill
Clinton`s personal history.

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

KATRINA PIERSON, TRUMP CAMPAIGN SPOKESPERSON: I think that depends on
Hillary Clinton. This came about because she called Donald Trump a sexist.
And I have to, you know, it boggles my mind that if a woman is criticized,
all of the sudden that makes you a sexist. And that`s just simply not the
case.

So, if Hillary Clinton or her team wants to go after Donald Trump as a
sexist, then he will absolutely bring up that topic because there is a lot
to discuss that was not brought out to the public.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

O`DONNELL: Rebecca, the War Room hears that and reacts how?

KATZ: In the War Room, they`re looking at it and they`re thinking, well,
Donald Trump is a misogynist. Yes, of course we can call him a sexist.
So, I think that from most America (inaudible).

O`DONNELL: But is it one of those things where you say, okay, this will be
a surrogate`s job, we will keep Hillary Clinton personally out of that
particular line of fire?

KATZ: Well, again, they pick their spots, you know, when he saying about
the woman`s card, you know, the campaign jump on in and it was right to
jump on in, that is the – it`s base-fired up and everybody was, you know,
getting their woman card online. And then other times they will let their
surrogates hit hard.

O`DONNELL: Yes, the woman`s card turned into an amazing fund raiser for
the Clinton campaign.

KATZ: Yes, very smart.

O`DONNELL: $2.4 million from 18,000 donors and this was where you actually
– if you made a donation, you`ve got a woman`s card.

KATZ: An actual card.

O`DONNELL: An actual card.

Forty percent of those donors, John, 40 percent of them, never made a
political contribution before in their lives.

BRABENDER: Yes.

O`DONNELL: That was a pretty smart War Room reaction.

BRABENDER: I still think it`s a major mistake on her part to engage Donald
Trump directly. That does not work very well for any of the Republican
candidates to this point and I don`t think that will work well for her.

I also think you have to understand that when Trump does some of the things
that some of the people find offensive to his supporters, which is growing,
they see it as being authentic, willing to stick it to demand a little bit,
standing up for the small guy, and so, when we see these fights happening,
he`s in the middle of them, we think it`s going to destroy him and what
we`re finding is it just makes him stronger. We saw that winning fight
primaries last year.

KATZ: But the difference is that it`s the general election and it`s not
just Republican primary voters.

O`DONNELL: Yes. Rebecca Katz and –.

BRABENDER: I understand it but it also is going to mean blue collar voters
in places like Ohio, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, who are Democrats and have
not been voting for the Republican very well May this year.

KATZ: Hillary Clinton will win those too.

O`DONNELL: All right. Rebecca Katz and John Brabender, thank you both for
joining us in the War Room. I appreciate it.

Coming up, in election confessions, is the way your spouse votes. This is
a serious election confession that we found. It`s the way your spouse
votes grounds for divorce.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O`DONNELL: Time for tonight`s “Election Confessions” and they are as nutty
as ever. It seems more people are keeping more secrets about this election
than ever before. “Elections Confessions”, an MSNBC news experiment is
collecting those secrets. You can call or text your election confessions
to 424-353-2016. There will be no evidence of your name, we`ll have no
idea who you are but we will have your confession.

You know what? let`s take the lights down for this. This is a whole other
level of the game here. There you go.

Here are tonight`s elections confessions.

The first one, “I live in a family so liberal but when I decided to vote
for Donald Trump, the only one I could tell was the dog and now even, he,
won`t have anything to do with me. What do you think I should do?”

Well, maybe don`t vote for Donald Trump.

Number two, “I`m a liberal Democrat in California, I`ve registered to be a
Republican to vote for Cruz to stop Trump. I never thought I`d see the
day.”

And our next one, “I was a big Bernie fan but his recent negativity turned
me off. I still tell everyone I`m for Bernie because I`m the most liberal
person on the planet but I`m voting for Hillary.”

And then there`s this one. This is the big one. “My husband of 28 years
informed me, “A vote for Hillary is grounds for divorce.” I replied, “File
the paperwork.” I will not be bullied.”

I don`t know, I don`t know what to cheer for there. I don`t know.

And our last confession tonight, “My 7-year-old grandson, who lives in
Brooklyn, came home from school unannounced, “If Trump becomes president,
I`m going to move to Long Island.”“

You can see more election confessions at electionconfessions.com.

Coming up, Bernie Sanders says he will try to convince superdelegates to
change their minds. We will be joined by a former superdelegate, who can
tell us just how easy that is and he`ll also tell us what bothers about how
Hillary Clinton handled her e-mail at the State Department. Hillary
Clinton`s supporter, the Former Senator, Bob Kerrey will join us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SANDERS: It is virtually impossible for Secretary Clinton to reach to the
majority of convention delegates by June 14th with pledged delegates alone.

I would hope very much that the superdelegates from those states, where we
have won with big margins or, in fact, where Secretary Clinton has won with
big margins, to respect the wishes of those people of those states and vote
in line with how the people of that state voted.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL: Joining us now Former Governor of Nebraska and Former United
States Senator and Former Democratic Party Superdelegate, Bob Kerrey. He
supports Hillary Clinton.

So, what do you make of Bernie`s argument about the superdelegates if your
state voted a certain way, you as a superdelegates should go with that?

BOB KERREY: Well, that`s not the purpose of the superdelegates.
Superdelegates are to give you the liberty of voting for whoever you want
to vote for.

O`DONNELL: OK. The superdelegates are a conspiracy to steal the
nomination.

KERREY: No, no. The superdelegates are, I think, actually the Democratic
Party established as a means to make certain that the will of the people
gets expressed right.

O`DONNELL: Well, how do you that?

(CROSSTALK)

O`DONNELL: So where all the people gets express right would be the way
Bernie is saying, doesn`t it?

KERREY: No, actually, no. Bernie`s trailing, you know, in all the
delegates like (inaudible), superdelegates.

O`DONNELL: All right. So –.

KERREY: If he`d to won New York, then he`s got a case. If he`s closing
the margin, then he`s got a case, but he`s not closing the margin.

O`DONNELL: So, the conversation with the superdelegate about that Bernie
wants to have, about “It`s time for you to switch to me”. How does that
one go?

KERREY: Again, if the margin was getting closer, if he`d to won New York,
then all of a sudden that looks, “Oh, my God, I made a commitment to
Hillary.” And it looks like now Bernie could come to the convention with
delegates that were selected in the election process with either close to
or more than what Hillary`s got, then he`s got a case, but then margin is
getting wider. And I`m sympathetic to him. I think he`s run a very good
campaign.

O`DONNELL: Yes.

KERREY: But it`s, you know, unless something magical happens in Indiana,
which doesn`t look like it`s going to happen to California.

It`s basically over for him. You can see it actually in the amount of
money it`s now coming into a sad thing (ph).

O`DONNELL: Speaking of basically.

KERREY: Yes.

O`DONNELL: The ending of Presidential Campaigns I find always poignant and
sometimes the concession speech is the best speech of a presidential
campaign.

I`m thinking of a guy who dropped out in 1992 running against Bill Clinton.
Let`s take a look at that final moment of the Bob Kerrrey for president
campaign in 1992.

KERREY: Oh, my God, there`s a clip.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KERREY: At the end of the campaign, we were ready to go full throttle, but
unfortunately we ran out of gas while we have plenty of potential and
plenty of enthusiasm, unfortunately, we do not have plenty of money. So,
it is with regret but with great pride for all that we have done together
that I am here this morning to end my candidacy for the President of the
United States of America.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL: You will be glad to know that when Mark Shields and others left
the room after what was a much longer and eloquent speech, many of them
were saying, “Best speech of the Bob Kerrey Campaign.” You know best
speech.

So what would you say to Bernie about, and others, when the time comes that
difficult moment where you have to make that decision that you made that
day?

KERREY: Well, it`s actually similar to getting on the dance floor. You
know, once you become a candidate, you`re in it, it`s like jumping out of
an airplane, which I`ve done a bit of view. Once you`re out of that plane,
there`s not a question of “Can you go back into the plane?” You got to hit
the ground. And the question now for Bernie is what kind of landing does
he make? I just don`t think the facts support he`s saying that he`s got a
good chance of being the nominee of the Democratic Party.

O`DONNELL: You recognize, as I do, that presidential candidates are rarely
perfect. I after all, supported Bob Kerrey in 1992, and I learned that
lesson vividly on the campaign then. You`ve criticized Hillary Clinton,
your candidate, for the way she handled the state department e-mails. How
do you see that?

KERREY: Well, look, I think the Freedom of Information Act is an
enormously important vehicle by which citizens get access to the
communication of their government. She has some tremendous power. Now
full disclosure, congress exempted itself in 1967, when I pass that law
(ph). If that`s the case he was making, that would need to change for you,
that`s a different matter but that`s not the case she`s making.

And I think for you, it really is a very important piece of legislation.
You know, it was written when we were still delivering mail with horses but
now we have e-mail and there`s a legitimate case that needs to be changed.
But it`s a really important vehicle by which citizens get access to the
decision making process of the government.

O`DONNELL: That was my first reaction to the controversy, not the National
Security part, which I don`t know that much about. But what was very clear
to me was this was not what Federal Records keeping law anticipated and we
actually have one of her State Department – Former State Department
staffers quoted recently in an interview saying, “It`s terrifying for her
to know that her e-mails are now public.” Well, if that`s your reaction
then you shouldn`t have been working in the state department in the first
place, where all e-mails are subjects to eventually becoming public if
they`re not classified.

KERREY: Yes, that`s exactly right. On the other hand, well, I think what
the inventor (ph) is talking about is that for you, in an e-mail world it
has gotten to be much more difficult, so let`s change it. I don`t have a
specific agenda to how to change it. If you want to change it, because
this can get more difficult, then make the case to change it, not to do an
in run around it by setting up a server in your home.

Unlike what anybody else has ever done, let`s say, you know, Colin Powell
didn`t put a server in his house. Now, I don`t think it`s central to the
difference between her and Donald Trump. I think there`re a lot more
important issues than this one. And, you know, the other examples that I
could give where she`s made mistakes, but they have a long list of
differentials between she and Donald Trump that compels me to support her.

O`DONNELL: Yes. And you were an early endorser of her. And, you know,
there`s so much tension right now between Bernie world and Hillary world.
And let`s just talk about it just in the remaining seconds of show.

And that is the ability to accept that there are things about your
candidate that you disagree with or you think are imperfect or this was a
mistake and shouldn`t have done that and I wish I was there to advise her
not to do that. And that they aren`t all perfect and there`s something
when you see the anger online from one campaign to other, in the
presumption of each is the idea that my candidate is perfect.

KERREY: Well, I mean, the key toward, which you have in that sense, is
online. Today, you can deliver victory all with Twitter, you can deliver
it online, you can deliver it in Facebook, you know, there`re lots of ways
you can, you know, can deliver victory like messages. In fact, if it`s not
sufficiently offensive, like Donald Trump has demonstrated, it sounds like
nobody`s going to pay attention to it.

So, it`s gotten harder because they`re on – if they`re on the receiving
and if you`ve seen those mean tweets. I mean, that tweet can feel and can
hurt and I think that one of the raise is that they will use really nasty
stuff out there because it does have an impact. But it`s a different world
than 1992.

O`DONNELL: Yes. Can you hang around we could do more interviews online
because I want to talk to you about your experiences as a Navy SEAL on this
anniversary of the bin Laden stories.

KERREY: Yes.

O`DONNELL: And also we`ll talk about your experience on the intelligence
committee, that whole 9/11 report that you were involved in. Much to talk
about on the very last word online.

But Kerrey gets tonight`s LAST WORD on TV though.

Chris Hayes is up next.


END

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