The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell, Transcript 11/18/15

Dan Malloy; Kate Brown; Tom Thurman, Laith Alkhouri, Jim Cavanaugh

RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC HOST: The company says they have now – on their
service that ISIS has been using to communicate in the past.

The company says they have now blocked 78 ISIS-related channels on telegram
across 12 languages. They`ve done it, they`ve done it now. Because now it
bothers them. No rush, you guys.

That does it for us now, our coverage of the attacks in Paris continues now
with Lawrence O`Donnell.

LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, MSNBC HOST: We begin tonight with a note to the
American news media. Stop calling Abdelhamid Abaaoud a mastermind.

You can call him the ringleader of the attacks in Paris, you can call him
the organizer of the attacks, but stop glorifying this homicidal maniac who
flunked out of high school.

When you`re typing the word “mastermind” into the graphics that are going
to appear on television screens all around the world including in the
Islamic world, ask yourselves, what would this mass murderer like to be

Organizer? Ringleader? Or mastermind? If he could type the word into your
computer to describe himself on these TV screens, he would type mastermind.

What would the Islamic State like him to be called? You are taking
dictation from terrorists when you call him a mastermind.

We have mass murderers in this country who kill more people than they
killed at that Paris restaurants, and no one says a mastermind was

We know better than any country in the world how easy it is for crazed
killers to open fire on unarmed people when they least expected in
theaters, in churches, in schools.

We know it doesn`t take a mastermind. It takes a sick mind. The mind of
someone like this. There he is in his Pickup truck, happily dragging dead
bodies behind it, bodies that have been mutilated.

“The Washington Post” alone among American news organizations is reporting
that he is dead. That he was killed in the dramatic raid by Paris police
in the middle of the night last night that left two dead, possibly
including Abdelhamid Abaaoud.

French officials are awaiting the results of DNA tests before they make an
official announcement about who was killed last night. It is not the first
time that Abdelhamid Abaaoud was reported dead.

Last year, his family in Belgium was told that he was killed fighting for
the Islamic State in Syria. His family reacted to that news with joy.

His sister Yasmina said, “We are praying that Abdelhamid really is dead.”
His father Omar told reporters then, “I can`t take it anymore, I`m on
medication. I don`t ever want to see him again.”

Police made eight arrests at the end of that raid last night. The Paris
prosecutor today said this –


UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): There are eight people, seven men
and one woman in custody.

Now the identities of the people arrested in the building have not been
formally established, but I must say that Abaaoud and Salah Abdeslam are
not part of the people – are not part of this people in custody.


O`DONNELL: Joining us now from Paris is NBC`s Keir Simmons. Keir, do we
have any estimate on when we will have the DNA results that will tell us
about the dead bodies.

KEIR SIMMONS, NBC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: We don`t know, and that may be in
part because they don`t know here whether they do, indeed, have the body of
Abaaoud or whether it is somebody else who was connected to these attacks.

Remember that the authorities believe that he was in Syria with ISIS until
just today when it emerged that they were looking for him in this cell of
people connected to those attacks.

And it was with great force that they attempted to take on that cell. They
had 110 police officers. There were 5,000 rounds fired.

The building was so intensely pulverized by the firefight that they now
believe that part of it is uninhabitable. So, it may well take some time.

They would want to be certain that it is him if they are going to announce
that it`s him, because the question will be whether he was able to travel
from Syria, perhaps using false identification, traveling through Greece.

That will be something they will need to be completely confident about
before they come out and make that announcement.

But by the way, a number of mistakes, if you like, have been made by this
group, despite the fact that they, in their eyes, have successfully carried
out this attack in Paris.

That car was discovered with so much weapons and ammunition in it. The
fact that this cell was discovered even while it was planning another
attack, the French prosecutor believes, is another error, if you like, on
their part.

Which will now allow the authorities here to go through that third floor
apartment, to go through that car and get more evidence, evidence that may
lead them to others involved.

O`DONNELL: Keir Simmons in Paris, thank you very much for joining us
tonight. We`re joined now from Brussels by NBC News foreign correspondent
Ayman Mohyeldin.

Ayman, what is – Brussels authorities are also involved in the
investigation of the identities of who was caught in that raid last night.

Lawrence. It does seem that all investigations so far continue to bring
pieces of information back here to Belgium.

In fact, one of the pieces of information that came out of this morning`s
raid in Saint-Denis in France was confirmed by local Belgium media.

And it`s important to emphasize the news broke kind of late, but local
Belgium media are reporting that the woman who blew herself up during that
French police raid earlier today was in fact, the cousin of Abdelhamid

The individual that they believe was an architect or the leader who
designed this particular attack on Paris.

Now, this also comes on the heels of another large manhunt, not just only
for this individual who`s believed to be the ringleader, if you will, of
the – of the Paris attackers, but the manhunt also continues for Salah
Abdeslam, believed to be one of those Paris attackers.

All of this is coming out of Belgium right now. And that is – that has
led Belgium authorities to carry out substantial number of raids over the
course of the past several days.

In fact, there have been several individuals, at least seven according to
Belgium security officials that have been detained. Five of those have
been released.

Two remain in custody as we understand it, as they still continue to piece
together pieces of information.

Now, in the city of Molenbeek; just on the outskirts of Brussels where
these two individuals at one point were living and their families currently
reside there.

There was a candle light vigil this evening. The community came together
to denounce the Paris attacks and they stand in solidarity with the French
victims of those terrorist attacks.

In fact, one of the brothers; the brother of Salah and Ibrahim, the two
individuals, the two brothers who were involved in that Paris attacks
actually participated in that candle light vigil.

He was seen putting a candle from his balcony and there was a moment that
the community here rallied behind.

They understand they`re very much now in the spotlight, not only of the
investigation, but a lot of questions as to how these two individuals and
many others over the past year have played a role, substantial role in some
of these terrorist attacks taking place in France, as well as raids that
have taken place here in Belgium. Lawrence –

O`DONNELL: Ayman Mohyeldin in Brussels, thank you very much for joining us
tonight. We`re now joined by Laura Haim of the White House correspondent
and U.S. Bureau chief for Canal Plus.

Laura, thank you very much for joining us. You were on this network last
night and virtually everything we knew about that raid as it was happening
was coming through your sources in France were invaluable, giving us an
accurate account of what was going on there.

What happens next in this investigation? When do – when do your sources
indicate, if they do, when we might find out the identities through those
DNA tests of who was in that – who were the – who was killed in that raid
last night.

PLUS: That certainly – know that they want to take their time.

They want to be fully confident about what they`re going to find. It was
extremely violent, and they told us that again, they have to check the DNA
to make sure that they`re not going to do any mistake when they`re going to
announce something.

O`DONNELL: And what is the expectation in terms of the investigation going
forward from here. What they obtained or what they found in that raid last
night, did that indicate to them that there are more possibilities out
there than just this group that was in that apartment?

HAIM: No, there`s something that`s questioning the – it`s not about what
happened last night, it`s about what they found in a car.

The car was attacking the restaurant on Friday evening, and according to an
investigator, they found in the car, knife, they found three knives, they
found a lot of bullets.

They found three (INAUDIBLE), but they also found bandage. And they don`t
understand why people want to commit suicide, who want to blow themselves

You have bandage, sophisticated bandage inside the car. So, they were
wondering if this unit, which was again, the unit which was havocking the
restaurants on Friday night was really committed to blow themselves up.

And that convinced the investigators, convinced that because they found
bandage in the car, it means that the people wanted to leave and maybe
wanted to lose something else, knowing that they might have been injured in
the attacks of the restaurant.

So that`s a tricky point for the investigators at this moment.

O`DONNELL: Laura, what led the police to that apartment last night?

HAIM: In fact, the woman suicide bomber, and that`s why it`s so
interesting and so tragic for France and Europe. Because this story of
this woman suicide bomber is absolutely huge for the investigators.

Her name is Hasna Aitboulahcen. That`s what our sources are telling us,
and we`re quite confident to report that.

She`s 26 years old, she was born in France, and she was indeed the cousin
of Abaaoud, the organizer of the attacks.

And that`s the reason she was wiretapped because she was close cousin to
him. She was wiretapped by three different services from the French

One was an administrative unit, and they wiretapped her a few months ago
because, again, she was the cousin of Abaaoud.

The second service which wiretapped her according to our sources was a unit
which was in charge of Islam and drug traffickers.

She was dealing drugs, so, also they wiretapped her phone. And the third
unit which wiretapped was an anti-terrorist unit according to what we
learned, she became completely panicked a few weeks ago.

We don`t know when precisely, but she became completely panicked when she
heard that Abaaoud was traveling from Syria to come to Europe.

And that was the trigger point. The French police, the French intelligence
began really to follow up closely, and then yesterday, according to our
sources, they were absolutely convinced that she was going to be in her
apartment, in that apartment, we`re checking again this fact.

And that they were going to find her alone with two men and they didn`t
expect at all this level of violence, according to the director of the raid
– I mean, the director of this unit, which is so specialized in the fight
against terror.

When they arrived, she began to fire at them extremely violently. She had
explosives, and then it was silent. And a few minutes ago, she blew
herself up.

According to the people who were on the site, she really wanted to blow
herself up because they`re convinced that she wanted to kill them in the

O`DONNELL: And the fact that they were able to wiretap her, that seems
like something obviously a big slip-up on her part, and on the other
conspirators` part that they would – that she`d be using a phone known to
French authorities, and apparently, known to French authorities for a

HAIM: Yes, that`s the problem of this story, you know. The French are
watching a lot of people. It`s a very difficult task. And those people
are operated inside families.

Again, on the attacks in Paris, we know that there were two brothers.
That`s now the cousin of the architect of the attack. This is a family

So the French services are trying time to time to listen to the family
members, hoping that sometimes it`s going to bring them something. And
apparently it was the case for this one.

O`DONNELL: Laura Haim, thank you for guiding our live coverage of that
raid last night and thank you for joining us again tonight.

HAIM: You`re welcome.

O`DONNELL: Coming up, Islamic State released new propaganda video today,
this time showing images of New York City. Obviously intended to be taken
as a threat to New York City.

Up next, more on the investigation by French authorities.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I chose to bring them here today because I think it`s
important for them to understand what`s going on.

And for them to see what – that we`re all out here anyway, because we`re
not afraid and we won`t be afraid in terms – in front of terrorism.



O`DONNELL: Coming up, most governors now oppose allowing Syrian refugees
into the United States.

Two governors will join us with their views, in Washington now, the House
of Representatives wants to take action defining exactly what – who among
Syrian refugees can get into this country.


REP. PAUL RYAN (R-WI), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: I also want to point out that
we will not have a religious test, only a security test.

If the intelligence and law enforcement community cannot certify that a
person presents no threat, then they should not be allowed in.




UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): A new team of terrorists was
neutralized. And we can think that concerning their weapons and
organization and structures and their determination of that commando was
ready to act again.


O`DONNELL: Joining us now, Jim Cavanaugh, an Nbc News analyst and Msnbc
analyst, retired ATF special agent and a former hostage negotiator for the

Also with us, Laith Alkhouri, co-founder and director of Middle East and
North Africa research and analysis for Flashpoint; an intelligence
consulting firm.

He`s also an Msnbc analyst. Laith, what do you make of that point that the
prosecutor made today that they believed they collected evidence indicating
they were ready and intending to act again.

& ANALYSIS, FLASHPOINT: Well, look, I think that the cellphone that was
discarded during the attacks on Friday might have led them through forensic
analysis on that phone to open some information data, names, phone numbers
and maybe track that.

Or cross reference those phone numbers and names with a database that they
already have, some sort of a blacklist. But furthermore, I think
authorities are – the story is still unfolding.

They`re still trying to determine whether the ringleader was part of the
individuals who were killed, and – but in grand scheme of things, I think
that this is too sophisticated for, you know, him or the other individuals
to be seen in that neighborhood.

So, I think there`s a lot of speculation there.

O`DONNELL: And Jim Cavanaugh, can you see any incentive for the
investigators and the prosecutor to not reveal the identities of who was
killed last night?

Even if they definitely already know it as “The Washington Post” is

EXPLOSIVES: Yes, I think they just really got – you know, bodies that are
blown to smithereens by, you know, possibly, a woman wearing a suicide

Which might have a charge on it, Lawrence, as much as 20 pounds of
explosives. And so you`re going to have a massive blast in there, and so
the bodies are, you know, pretty unrecognizable and they`re really just
trying to be sure.

They might have to get a DNA, blood test, a fingerprint, so that may be the

O`DONNELL: We`re going to show now some of the video that the Islamic
State released today, a propaganda video that depicts New York City.

In some of the elements of that video, obviously, specifically intended to
be interpreted as a threat here in New York City.

The FBI statement on this video is, we are aware of the reporting of
ongoing terrorist threats to New York City to include the newly released
ISIS video involving Times Square.

These instance reaffirms the message that New York City remains a terrorist
target. While there`s no specific articulable threat to the city at this

Laith, what`s your interpretation of this situation with that video and the
FBI`s response to it?

ALKHOURI: I believe it`s exactly what the FBI and then like he did say
earlier today, which is, you know, this is a propaganda value mostly,
trying to issue yet another threat to New York City.

One of the most desirable targets for terrorist groups around the world, of
course, including ISIS, and before that, al Qaeda. But I think, you know,
this footage has been recycled before.

It`s been used in previous ISIS videos, and so it is not new, the threat is
not new, but the video message is new, which is threatening France yet
again in the same video, saying that this is not over.

And it`s not over, I guess, on a much wider scale. So, it`s not just
France, it`s not over – it`s not over for other countries we view as enemy

O`DONNELL: And Jim Cavanaugh, all of us here in New York wake up everyday
knowing that this is a target city, NYPD obviously knows, it`s a target

How does this video – what does this video change if anything in NYPD`s
posture and the general security posture in New York City?

CAVANAUGH: Well, you can see from their new terrorist team, the 500-man
terrorist team they`ve deployed, they`re really on top of their game.

But New Yorkers aren`t in any more danger yesterday before the video than
they are today. And I agree with Laith on that.

There is a trend, a light motive, always the terrorists want to hit
Manhattan, but it hasn`t gotten more dangerous.

What`s the most dangerous thing at the moment, I think, is the tempo of the
ISIS attacks externally.

The attack in Turkey, the attack in Beirut, the Russian airliner, the
multiple attacks in Paris from all suicide bombers and their use of
operational security.

The tempo of these events, success upon success upon success. They want to
strike more and more and more. U.S. is a target, New York is a target, but
they`re just trying to inspire somebody to do something here.

Which they do every day, they try to inspire someone. If they had an
operational cell, with an operational commander like Abaooud, you know,
working in the U.S., we probably wouldn`t see a cheesy video like that.

But I don`t think they have that level of sophistication here at this
point, and Laith can speak to that as well. Europe, they have it, France
has it, we`ve seen it, unfortunately.

O`DONNELL: Laith, five Syrians arrested today, moving through Central
America reportedly by the authorities intending to travel by land to the
United States, using what they determined to be fake Greek passports.

This is what everyone is worried about.

ALKHOURI: Absolutely. I mean, this is a massive worry, not only – not
only among the populists of the many countries that are hosting refugees,
but also among a lot of politicians.

But I think, you know, passports are, you know, somewhat, easily faked, you
know, they could be faked. We`ve seen these cases happen before.

Somebody just went online the other day and said, he was able to fake a
Syrian passport and a Syrian ID with essentially – pretty cheaply.

And so, you know, I think this is something that terrorists might try to
exploit and might try to take advantage of, but I think in the grand scheme
of things, it`s not exactly their main priority.

O`DONNELL: But Jim Cavanaugh, with all this talk of the weakness of our
southern border, it would seem inviting to terrorists.

CAVANAUGH: Well, it is, Lawrence, but it`s so de minimis or risk. I mean,
this is just xenophobia. You know, these are people fleeing persecution,
hundreds of thousands of people killed in Syria.

These are the victims of these terrorists groups. They`re really a very
low risk, a very low risk for this. It`s just sort of a posturing and,
like Laith said, you know, politicians fear mongering.

Law enforcements won`t want to spend a lot of time on this. I mean, I can
tell you, they should be vetted, of course, anybody coming into the
country, I totally agree.

But the risk is more from people in Europe, western Europe, who really are
ISIS members, really are al Qaeda people, really have traveled to fight in
Syria, Iraq, years ago, in Afghanistan.

Those people who we know and who really are terrorists coming over to the
United States on a visa program.

Not refugees who are being persecuted, barely getting away with their lives
and their babies and the clothes on their back.

I don`t think there`s very much danger there at all.

O`DONNELL: Jim Cavanaugh and Laith Alkhouri, thank you both for joining us
tonight. Coming up, Republican rhetoric heats up over admitting Syrian
refugees into the United States.

We will have two governors join us.


SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN (D), MASSACHUSETTS: We are not a nation that
delivers children back into the hands of ISIS murderers because some
politician doesn`t like their religion.



LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, MSNBC HOST: Speaking to an audience and French mayors
today, French president Francois Hollande announced that France will still
accept 30,000 Syrian refugees over the next two years even after at least
one of last week`s attacker was found of what authorities believed to be a
fake Syrian passport.

Here in the U.S. House speaker Paul Ryan today spoke in favor of a
Republican-led house bill that would make it more difficult for Syrian
refugees to enter this country.


REP. PAUL RYAN (R), HOUSE SPEAKER: We can be compassionate and we can also
be safe. That`s what the bill we`re bringing up tomorrow is all about. It
calls for a new standard of verification for refugees from Syria and Iraq.
It would mean a pause in the program until we can be certain beyond any
doubt that those coming here are not a threat. It`s that simple. And I
don`t think it`s asking too much.


O`DONNELL: The White House warned today that President Obama would veto
that bill. The White House tweeted, slamming the door in the face of
refugees would betray our deepest values. That`s not who we are. It`s not
what we`re going to do.

Last night, President Obama had strong words for the Republican
presidential candidates who opposed allowing Syrian refugees in this


idea that there`s a war between Islam and the west. And when you start
seeing individuals in positions of responsibility suggesting that
Christians are more worthy of protection than Muslims are in a war-torn
land, that feeds the ISIL narrative. And these are the same folks often
times who suggest that they are so tough that just talking to Putin or
staring down ISIL or using some additional rhetoric is somehow going to
solve the problems out there. But apparently, they are scared of widows
and orphans coming into America as a part of our tradition of compassion.

At first, they were worried about the press being too tough on them during
debates. Now they`re worried about 3-year-old orphans. That doesn`t sound
very tough to me.


O`DONNELL: Ted Cruz was the first Republican candidate this week to say we
should accept only Christian refugees into this country. Ted Cruz reacted
to the president`s comments with his predictable childish bluster.


SEN. TED CRUZ (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, let me suggest something,
Mr. President. If you want to insult me, you can do it overseas, you can
do it in Turkey, you could do it in foreign countries, but I would
encourage you, Mr. President, come back and insult me to my face.


O`DONNELL: Up next, two governors will join us to discuss the Syrian
refugee situation.



SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN (D), MASSACHUSETTS: We are not a nation that
delivers children back into the hands of ISIS murder because some
politician doesn`t like their religion. And we are not a nation that backs
down out of fear. Our first responsibility is to protect this country. We
must embrace that fundamental obligation, but we do not make ourselves
safer by ignoring our common humanity and turning away from our moral


O`DONNELL: Joining us now, Oregon governor Kate Brown and Connecticut
governor Dan Malloy.

Governor Brown, are you prepared to help Syrian refugees resettle in

GOV. KATE BROWN (D), OREGON: Yes. We will continue to welcome Syrian
refugees to Oregon, as long as they have been thoroughly vetted by the
federal agencies.

O`DONNELL: Governor Malloy, what is your view of Syrian refugees and how
Connecticut should receive them?

GOV. DAN MALLOY (D), CONNECTICUT: Well, you know, I met a family today
that was scheduled to go to Indiana. And based on the position that their
governor took were redirected to Connecticut, I actually went down to New
Haven and met a husband and a wife and their 5-year-old son. They were
driven from homes in 2011. They have been in refugee camps for four-plus
years. They have gone through an exhaustive process with the United States
government. And they were found to be eligible to come to the United
States. And I wanted to make sure that they understood that they were
welcome in Connecticut.

Quite frankly, the United States has an obligation just as France and other
nations have an obligation to resettle refugees. This has been established
international law, at least since 1951, under certain agreements reached
the United Nations that required then the resettlement of people from the
Second World War. We participated throughout. No one has said that, you
know, previously before this stuff on Friday, people weren`t having this
discussion about refugees from Syria or for that matter anywhere in the
Middle East. And all of a sudden because we have a particularly small
group of people, we`re having these kinds of discussions.

If you`re going to block anybody from coming to the country, and I`m
arguing this, just be certain. But the people who perpetrated the attack
were from France and Belgium. We are not stopping people from airports who
are coming to our country, their visit from France or Belgium or saying
that they shouldn`t be allowed to relocate to our country.

There is a certain xenophobic, perhaps racism involved in what`s going on
here. And I`m sure that nobody wants to admit that that`s what`s going on,
but if you look at the entirety of the discussion we`re having, these
governors, these Republican governors have said they won`t allow people
from Syria in their states, not one of them, to the best of my knowledge,
is saying we should have universal background checks for guns. We know now
that over 2,043 people on the terrorism watch list were allowed to buy guns
in the United States legally between 2004 and 2014 because the NRA has been
effective in making sure that there`s not a cross reference to the
terrorism watch list.

If you can`t get on a plane in Syria or in the United States without
somebody doing a background check, why are we allowing terrorists or people
on the watch list to buy guns in America? If you want to make America
safer, let`s clamp down on illegal guns, 30,000 people in America will die
as a result of gun violence.

Governor Brown had a terrible incident at a community college in her state
just a short while ago. There are things that we can do to make Americans
safer, but I don`t see the speaker of the house saying we should clamp down
on guns or that we should allow people to stop buying guns over the
internet without a background check or at a show without a background

What he has decided to do is to pick on this particular group, because it
seems in his mind, and other`s minds, I suppose, to makes political sense
and I am against that. I think we have to fulfill our international
obligations and our moral obligations.

O`DONNELL: Governor Brown, some of your colleagues and governors around
the country seem to believe that they could simply stand on the interstate
and prevent people from entering their states which, of course, is illegal.
They cannot do that. They have absolutely no control, you have no control
as governors as to who enters your states from other states.

But the states do run programs in specific assistance to refugees in these
kinds of situations. And there may be some discretion among governors as
to exactly how much help they direct to certain people in those programs.
Do you see anything in the programs that Oregon has that you would want to
adjust in any way in relation to Syrian refugees?

BROWN: Well, in Oregon, we see this state as a safe haven. And we will
welcome Syrian refugees, other political refugees with open arms. We think
it is our obligation to open the doors of opportunity for them. The
private organizations on the ground will make sure that they have the
services they need, the education services, the employment services, the
relocation services to make sure that they can get ahead and succeed in
this country.

O`DONNELL: I want to listen to what FBI director Comey said recently about
the possible risk of admitting Syrian refugees. Let`s listen to this.


JAMES COMEY, DIRECTOR, FBI: On behalf of the FBI, what you can assure them
is that we will work day and night to make sure that if there is
information available about somebody, we have surfaced it and we have
evaluated it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And I understand that if there is an information. But
the problems that we don`t have the information on most of these people,
isn`t that true?

COMEY: Yes. And so, I can`t sit here and offer anybody an absolute
assurance that there`s no risk associated with this.


O`DONNELL: Governor Malloy, what`s your response to this?

MALLOY: The U.N. sent 23,000 names to the United States for possible
inclusion as refugees. From that group, the United States reviewed those
files and accepted 7,000 for further review. Of that 7,000, less than
2,100 have actually been admitted to the United States. The family that I
met, this 5-year-old young child that I shook hands with and he looked me
straight in the eye and I complimented him on that. He is going to be a
great American. They have been in the process for well over 12 months.
The average process period forth to come in as a refugee is 12 to 18 months
if you`re accepted. And a lot of people are not accepted.

This is a very thorough process. So thorough that to the best of our
knowledge no Syrian who has come into the country over the last several
years has had a legal problem of any type. And certainly no threats of
terrorism have arisen.

But I mean, let`s – again, Lawrence, if I can, we know that a large
percentage of the attackers on 9/11 were from Saudi Arabia. No one said we
should stop commerce or trade or visitation from Saudi Arabia. We know
that other people have perpetrated crimes around the world from other
countries. But yet we`re talking about this relatively small group of

And let me make this point. No one has taken a vote from Turkey or from
Syria, a raft to the United States. They got to go someplace else.
There`s plenty of time to check this out. What we`re talking about is do
we honor our international obligation and our moral obligation. And at
least in my state I say yes.

O`DONNELL: Governor Brown, Governor Rick Snyder of Michigan has suggested
that we take a pause. He is not opposed to moving forward in the future,
but he says as a result of these events in the last week, what about a
pause just to examine what`s going on here. When people in government talk
about a pause, that means stopping it. And then you somehow have to
restart it. So I`m not sure how that would work. That seems to be what
the House of Representatives are talking about, too. What they`re calling
a pause in the Obama administration is interpreting as stopping it.

BROWN: Well, as you know, the states don`t have independent authority to
refuse refugees. I think in my mind, this is a question. It`s a test of
who we are as a people. Are we going to continue to be a beacon of hope
and light for the rest of the world? Or are we going to shut down that

In Oregon, we want to make sure we provide an incredible, safe opportunity
for these refugees, that they have the ability to rebuild their lives after
suffering from devastating circumstances. In my mind, that`s who we are.
We are a safe haven and we are opening the doors of opportunity.

O`DONNELL: Governors Kate Brown and Dan Malloy. Thank you both for
joining us on this important issue. Thank you.

MALLOY: Thank you, Lawrence.

O`DONNELL: Coming up, the bomb that the Islamic state says brought down
that Russian jet over Egypt.





O`DONNELL: That was Vladimir Putin yesterday. And today, the Islamic
state has published what they claim is proof of its involvement in the
bombing of that plane.

In the latest issue of the terror group`s official magazine “Dabiq,” the
Islamic state revealed what they say is an image of the improvised
explosive device used to take on the Russian passenger plane. In the
picture, a soda can is shown with what appears to be commercial grade
detonator and a switch connected to a battery. U.S. intelligence sources
say that if a single can was used as the explosive, it was likely placed
inside the main cabin under a window seat. An article in the magazine
asserts that the Islamic state originally planned to target a western
country but changed their plan when Russia began bombing Syria.

Yesterday, the Russian air force reported that it had completed one of its
largest air strikes yet, launching 34 cruise missiles, and claiming to
destroy 14 Islamic state targets in Syria.

Joining us now is Tom Thurman. He is a former FBI explosives expert and
now a professor in the arson and explosion investigation program at eastern
Kentucky University.

Tom Thurman, this soda can bomb, that is enough to take down a plane like

would imagine, although I haven`t done it, that you could pack at least a
pound of explosives in that can, and I would like to remind you that this
is a narrow bodied plane. It`s not a huge airplane. And less than a pound
of explosives brought down 747 Pan-Am 103. So absolutely. It`s entirely

O`DONNELL: Let`s listen to what Russia`s head of security said about their
analysis of the bomb.




O`DONNELL: So he was speaking yesterday before he saw this image of a soda
can that ISIS released today. And he was saying that they believed it to
be about a kilogram, it is about just over two pounds of TNT, as he
describes it, went off inside. Could you get that much into that one soda
can, do you think?

THURMAN: I think that`s stretching the story. That soda can would not
take in my opinion two pounds or one kilogram of explosives. And actually,
again, it doesn`t take two pounds. An airliner flying at cruise altitude,
30,000 feet, the only thing it has to do with blow a hole in the side of
the plane and that`s your explosive hole. That`s your explosion dynamics.
And you have possibly a pressure differential of 8.2 psi. And at that
point, you have a mechanical implosion of the plane. The pressure exiting
that plane actually at that point rips the plane apart. It`s not the
explosion at that point. The explosion starts this whole process. And
then, again, it`s carried out by the pressure differential in the plane.

O`DONNELL: And there`s a lot of controls that are running under the floors
and up in the ceilings of these aircraft and you lose a lot of the controls
in this kind of an explosion?

THURMAN: And if the bomb is under a seat, that`s true. But in modern
aircraft today, they don`t have the controls as we had in the old planes
with actual cables. It`s all electronics. And electronics are a lot
easier to destroy than the cables. But still, the point being at 30,000
feet, you blow a hole in the side of the plane, which if a soda can is, in
fact, our container, the plane comes apart by the explosive decompression.
It is not going to continue to fly.

O`DONNELL: Tom Thurman, thank you very much for joining us tonight.

Coming up, the story of a woman who chose to run toward the sound of the
guns on Friday night in Paris.


O`DONNELL: And tonight`s “Last Word.” Anne Sophie de Chaisemartin a
producer at France 24 news. She lives across the street from the sidewalk
cafe called La Belle Equipe which was attacked on Friday night, 19 people
were killed. When she heard the sound of the gun, she ran towards the
sound of the gun. She told Lester Holt what happened next.


terrible image I have on my head is to see 10, 11, 12, maybe 15 people
lying down. All the people were very, very calm. No screaming, no noise.

LESTER HOLT, NBC NEWS ANCHOR: Tell me who you treated first.

DE CHAISEMARTIN: It was a woman who had a gunshot in the arm. I remember
applying to with her right here. People started to feel the pain and
people started to scream and people started to panic and ask for treatment
first, what are you doing? Help me, look at this.

HOLT: One of the people that you treated that you met was an American

DE CHAISEMARTIN: Yes. It`s a very important memory because she didn`t
speak a word of French. She had beautiful eyes and I was actually joking
with her. I was trying to keep her focused and with me. And I think I
looked at her deeply in the eyes for maybe 20 minutes nonstop.

HOLT: It must have been comforting for her to hear someone speak her

DE CHAISEMARTIN: Yes. She was less wounded than others. So she had to
wait a long time, a very long time lying on the floor.

HOLT: Has this taken something from the Paris that we all know and love?

DE CHAISEMARTIN: Absolutely not. They didn`t cake anything. We will
really stand up and we will really fight in our own way. We will always
have the (INAUDIBLE). We will always - I know everyone with a horrible
smelly cheese, French art, French culture, nothing of these has been taken.
And this happened in Paris now, but for me it happened all the world at the
same time.



Copyright 2015 CQ-Roll Call, Inc. All materials herein are protected by
United States copyright law and may not be reproduced, distributed,
transmitted, displayed, published or broadcast without the prior written
permission of CQ-Roll Call. You may not alter or remove any trademark,
copyright or other notice from copies of the content.>