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The Last Word with Lawrence O'Donnell, Transcript 09/23/15

Guests: Maria Teresa Kumar, Rick Wilson, Jonathan Allen, Michael Daly, MattMalone, Dave Itzkoff

RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC HOST: Many of them are crooks or we can -- pressing or maybe inspiring that here in our country, so many of our high-ranking politicians end up having mugshots. Either we can despair because so many of them are crooks or we can rejoice, we can find joy in the fact that it turns out they`re not above the law when they are crooks. Maybe we can rejoice in the fact that so freaking many of them get caught. Oh, yes, they do. That does it for us tonight, we`ll see you again tomorrow, now it`s time for THE LAST WORD with Lawrence O`Donnell, good evening, Lawrence. LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, MSNBC HOST: Rachel, the big question I`ve always wondered about is what percentage of them get caught? Is it like speeders on the interstate where it`s like less than 1 percent or is it 90 percent? MADDOW: We need an omniscient guide to tell us these things -- O`DONNELL: We don`t know, we don`t know -- MADDOW: I`ll see if I can get to the pope about it -- O`DONNELL: We`ll be watching tomorrow night, Rachel -- MADDOW: Thanks Lawrence -- O`DONNELL: Thank you -- MADDOW: Thank you -- O`DONNELL: Almost every word the pope says in Washington is being interpreted as political. Father Matt Malone is here to explain just how political the pope intends to be. And at this hour, Donald Trump is in another Twitter war with "Fox News" after announcing today that he will boycott "Fox News". The Trump boycott of "Fox News" is expected to last just right up to the moment the next time Donald Trump is on "Fox News". (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: A lot of happenings over the last little while. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The frontrunner declared he was boycotting "Fox News". TRUMP: I didn`t feel I was being treated fairly and we`ll see what happens. Last night, I did Colbert, did anybody see that? STEPHEN COLBERT, HOST, "THE LATE SHOW": I certainly hope we are shooting the show in IMAX so we can capture his entire head on camera. (LAUGHTER) TRUMP: But the ratings were phenomenal. COLBERT: I`m going to throw you a big, fat meatball. Barack Obama, born in the United States. (LAUGHTER) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Trump whiffed. TRUMP: I don`t talk about it anymore. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yet, he keeps bringing it up. TRUMP: Hillary is a birther. In 2008, she was the original birther. HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I have been blamed for nearly everything. That was a new one for me. LESTER HOLT, NBC NEWS: For Pope Francis, a day that began at the White House ended at the altar. BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: And the generosity of your spirit. We see a living example of Jesus` teachings. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Francis toured the ellipse in the Popemobile, blessing the 50,000 along the route. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was a blessing to see him, you know, he waved to us and we just, you know, felt the energy. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But the Pope himself had a special request. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) -- POPE FRANCIS: I will -- UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) -- BERGOGLIO: I will. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) -- BERGOGLIO: I promise. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He also led the first canonization ever to take place in America. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ending the day that saw this often bitterly divided city united in joy. BERGOGLIO: God bless America. (APPLAUSE) (END VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL: Donald Trump has had it with "Fox News". No, this time he means it. This time he`s serious. At high noon today, Donald Trump went into the Trump war room and tweeted, ""Fox News" has been treating me very unfairly and I have therefore decided that I won`t be doing any more "Fox" shows for the foreseeable future." In the past, when Donald Trump got mad at "Fox News" for asking him excellent questions in the first presidential debate, the president of "Fox News" immediately called up Donald Trump to make peace. That was a good business move for "Fox News" because Donald Trump is good for the ratings of any show he appears on, most of which have been "Fox News" shows. But today, it seems "Fox News" has had enough of Donald Trump. "Fox News" released this statement explaining that Trump`s boycotting decision came exactly 17 minutes after "Fox News" canceled a Trump interview with Bill O`Reilly scheduled for tomorrow. "At 11:45 a.m. today, we canceled Donald Trump`s scheduled appearance on the "O`Reilly Factor" on Thursday which resulted in Mr. Trump`s subsequent tweet about his boycott of "Fox News". The press predictably jumped to cover his tweet creating yet another distraction from any real issues that Mr. Trump might be questioned about. When coverage doesn`t go his way, he engages in personal attacks on our anchors and hosts which has grown stale and tiresome. He doesn`t seem to grasp that candidates telling journalists what to ask is not how the media works in this country." Less than an hour later, team Trump released a written response, and as usual, it was all about polls and ratings. "Mr. Trump stands by his statement made earlier today as a candidate for president of the United States and the definitive frontrunner in every poll both nationally and statewide including the just-released poll in the state of Florida. Mr. Trump expects to be treated fairly. All you have to do is look at the tremendous ratings last night from "The Late Show" with Stephen Colbert where Mr. Trump was the guest or the ratings from both debates to fully understand the facts." Needless to say, the Trump campaign did not explain why TV ratings -- what TV ratings have to do with the facts or for that matter what facts they were actually referring to. The Trump boycott of "Fox News" is now ten hours old. And a short time ago, Donald Trump tweeted that he will be on "Morning Joe" on this network tomorrow. You can -- the -- so we can confirm that, that is true. There is some good news tonight for the people hoping Joe Biden will officially declare his candidacy for president. A new "Bloomberg" politics poll shows Joe Biden inching ahead of Bernie Sanders for the first time and within eight points of frontrunner Hillary Clinton. A new "Fox News" poll out tonight shows Donald Trump leveling off in the lead at 26 percent with Ben Carson at 18 percent, Carly Fiorina and Marco Rubio tied at 9, Ted Cruz at 8, Jeb Bush at 7. And, of course, I was joking when I said we don`t know what "Fox News" show Donald Trump will be on tomorrow, but at the end of his first day of boycotting "Fox News", Donald Trump admitted that he wasn`t really going to boycott "Fox News". (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TRUMP: I have a lot of respect for a lot of the people at "Fox"; Hannity and Bill O`Reilly and Greta. I`ve had great relationships with the people at "Fox". But I haven`t thought that they`re treating me fairly. And I`ll give you an example. The polls came out the other day, they were outstanding. "Fox" didn`t put them up. So, we`ll see what happens with "Fox". Well, they`re certainly possible, I`m sure at some point it will happen. But I didn`t feel I was being treated fairly and we`ll see what happens. (END VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL: So much for the tough guy stick-to-his-guns boycott of "Fox News", it just means he hasn`t yet scheduled his next appearance on "Fox News". Joining us now, Rick Wilson, Republican strategist, contributor to "The Daily Beast" and "POLITICO" and founder of Intrepid Media. Jonathan Allen, chief political correspondent for Vox and Maria Teresa Kumar, president of Voto Latino and host of "CHANGING AMERICA" by shift on Msnbc. Now, there is a latest eruption by Donald Trump, a Twitter war that has started because of something Rich Lowry said about Donald Trump on "Fox News" tonight. Let`s first of all take a look at what Rich Lowry said. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) RICH LOWRY, EDITOR, NATIONAL REVIEW: Trump obviously attacks everyone, but she`s become a much bigger target and I think part of what`s going on here is that last debate. Let`s be honest, Carly cut his balls off with the precision -- MEGYN KELLY, FOX NEWS: What did you just say? LOWRY: Of a surgeon and he knows it. (END VIDEO CLIP) MARIA TERESA KUMAR, PRESIDENT, VOTO LATINO: Wow. O`DONNELL: Donald Trump absolutely shocked by the language, of course. Here`s the Trump tweet. ""Fox News" owes me an apology for allowing clueless pundit Rich Lowry to use such foul language on TV, unheard of." It is unheard of, Maria Teresa, except by the host of "Morning Joe" who used the same word in the same -- (LAUGHTER) Recently. I personally won`t -- KUMAR: Late night TV -- O`DONNELL: I have only -- I`ve only used that word in coverage of the Tom Brady scandal, I haven`t used it in any other way. But, you know, here we go with Trump now. And this time, Trump, of course, is never serious, but "Fox News" seems a little bit serious this afternoon with the statement they made about him. KUMAR: Well, I think it`s because they`re tiring of him, and basically, they`re saying at the end of the day, you and I both know that you need our TV stations in order to rally up your base. So, we`re going to turn that off, good luck with you. Because at the end of the day, that`s one of the reasons why Trump is saying he will go back on. Because the only megaphone he has to rally up his base is through "Fox News". O`DONNELL: Another tweet by Donald Trump about this: "Incompetent Rich Lowry lost it on "Fox News", he should not be allowed on TV and the FCC should fine him." Rick Wilson, Donald Trump once again showing he knows nothing about how government works and the FCC of course -- RICK WILSON, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST & FOUNDER, INTREPID MEDIA: It is outstanding, Lawrence -- O`DONNELL: Can`t fine anyone -- WILSON: And he would -- O`DONNELL: For that -- but go ahead, Rick. WILSON: First, he files this ridiculous cease and desist letter against the Club for Growth. O`DONNELL: Yes -- WILSON: For a well sourced and -- O`DONNELL: A fake threat to sue -- WILSON: And a well documented -- O`DONNEL: Yes -- WILSON: Yes, but fake, right. Like Donald Trump is ever going to go into discovery with anyone. And secondly, listen, I`ve got to give props to my friend Rich Lowry. I thought I had set a pretty high bar by calling Donald Trump an epic douche canoe, but Rich has really moved it up, I`ve really got to step up my game now because -- O`DONNELL: No -- (CROSSTALK) Not on this show, no, this is a family show, Rick. (LAUGHTER) But no, listen, you and -- WILSON: Remember what -- O`DONNELL: Other Republicans are obviously hitting very high frustration points with this Trump campaign as Rich Lowry demonstrated tonight. JONATHAN ALLEN, CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT, VOX: Well, listen, the irrationality of the Trump campaign and the ecosystem he built basically softball interviews on "Fox" and talk-radio that drove his numbers, you know, it proves the adage at this point that Roger giveth and Roger taketh away. And I think that we`ve reached a point now where the shenanigans and the name calling and the temper tantrums like a tween girl from Donald Trump have reached the point where -- KUMAR: That`s not fair to tween girls -- (CROSSTALK) Let me tell you, that`s not fair to tween girls -- O`DONNELL: Yes, that is not fair -- ALLEN: Well -- O`DONNELL: To tween girls -- ALLEN: No, you`re probably right, that`s not fair -- O`DONNELL: No -- ALLEN: To tween girls -- O`DONNELL: No. But listen, Jonathan Allen, there`s a couple of interesting dynamics here, one is the business situation for "Fox News", I mean, this is all anecdotal on my end. But I -- in Boston, I was talking to a friend of mine, devoted "Fox News" watcher saying I`m done with them, absolutely done with them. You know, he hated all the tough questions at the debate, he hates that they don`t praise Trump constantly. And to the "Fox Business" side, you know, Roger Ailes might have looked at this and said, the longer this goes on, the more he`s hurting us with our base of viewers. ALLEN: You know, I think there`s actually been a turning point that we can see with the way "Fox" has treated Donald Trump. You know, the last time he said he was going to boycott and he got in a big fight with Megyn Kelly, you saw "Fox" quickly essentially apologizing and - - O`DONNELL: Yes -- ALLEN: Want to break bread with them. And now you`re seeing a completely different attitude from "Fox". And I actually think what it shows is that Donald Trump is vulnerable. I mean, this guy has got the thinnest skin I`ve ever seen on a politician. I`m not sure how he expects to win the presidency like that. It`s like to borrow from another network. It`s like he`s one of these bachelorette candidates, like doesn`t get the rose, gets a little -- (CROSSTALK) Or the bachelor -- or the bachelor -- O`DONNELL: Yes -- ALLEN: You know, the way -- the way Maria Teresa, I didn`t mean it to be sexist, I`m just saying, you know, this is -- it`s getting -- as "Fox" said, a little tiresome. O`DONNELL: And you know, the power of "Fox", I think, is in question in this campaign season, too. Because the most fascinating analysis I`ve seen this week about Scott Walker dropping out is the power of Rush Limbaugh. Scott Walker was Rush Limbaugh`s favorite candidate until Donald Trump came along and Rush discovered Trump was his audience`s favorite candidate. And he is in his business for the ratings. He went with his audience, abandoned Walker, went with Trump and now there`s no more Walker and Trump is at the top of the polls. Rush Limbaugh in this analysis is way more important to Trump than "Fox News" can ever be. KUMAR: That`s exactly right. And let`s not forget, the folks that were backing Scott Walker were the Koch Brothers. O`DONNELL: Yes -- KUMAR: So, which tells you that this is actually -- this is going to be a debate much more than money -- incredible ideology. And what the -- what Trump is doing, he`s stirring the pot of an extreme Republican Party. And that`s one of the reasons why "Fox News" may want to turn him down and turn down the dial on him because everybody knows that unfortunately he can`t win the White House if he has just such an extreme individual -- extreme views. But he`s not going to be able to win the middle of America, which is what he needs. O`DONNELL: Jonathan Allen, the power of the Koch brothers as we saw this week, the power of the $20 million sitting in the Super PAC that you technically cannot coordinate with turned out to be not very much power for Scott Walker at all. ALLEN: No, I mean, his biggest problem obviously is that, nobody felt allegiant to him in terms of the voters. I think in the past, what you would have wanted is somebody who is a bridge candidate between the wings of the party. But neither wing of the party right now wants a bridge candidate. And so, a candidate like Scott Walker who I think reflected a lot of the various positions of Republican constituencies actually turned out to essentially destroy himself that way. There was no reason for anyone to rally behind him the way that you`ve seen some rally behind Trump and others. O`DONNELL: Jonathan Allen, thank you very much for joining us tonight. Coming up in the rewrite tonight, the most important question that interviewers should ask Donald Trump. And just how political does the pope intend to be in Washington this week? (COMMERCIAL BREAK) O`DONNELL: Just how bad a job Carly Fiorina did running Hewlett-Packard has been well documented and well documented on this program. But you don`t know it all. There`s another part of what she did there that Michael Daly is going to tell us about next. And later in the program, the most amazing viral video of -- for me, the year, where the Boston guy swears at a fish for five minutes. You`ve got to see this. Sadly, there will be bleeping, but you`ll understand it. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) CARLY FIORINA (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We should want all companies grow and to succeed and to prosper. That`s how you create jobs, that`s how you save jobs. I was recruited to Hewlett-Packard to save a company and we did that and saved a lot of jobs in the process. (END VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL: That was Carly Fiorina speaking to reporters today in South Carolina today. "The Daily Beast" Michael Daly has a new piece on Carly Fiorina`s tenure at Hewlett-Packard. "Specifically her company is lobbying for the Homeland Investment Act of 2004 which the piece calls "Carly Fiorina`s $4 billion job scam." Michael Daly writes, "the purported aim of the legislation was to generate economic growth and therefore jobs at home by -- according to corporations, a one-year tax holiday on billions in overseas profits they had stashed offshore. U.S. corporations took $265 billion in tax deductions." But, as Michael Daly points out, it did not result in the job creation that was promised. The three biggest beneficiaries cut jobs including Hewlett-Packard which brought back $14.5 billion from overseas profits but then cut more than 14,000 jobs. To make it all even uglier, Michael Daly writes, "Hewlett-Packard lobbied for the Homeland Investment Act as a member of something called the Homeland Investment Coalition. This at a time when the war on terror was intensifying and the word "Homeland" made everyone think of national security. We had invaded Iraq in March 2003 and there was Fiorina four months later, party to using Homeland to hustle the government out of billions with false promises of new jobs. That may not be treason, but it is close enough to turn the stomach." Joining us now, Michael Daly, special correspondent for "The Daily Beast". Michael, we thought we knew everything about Carly Fiorina`s tenure. I had a Yale professor Jeff Sonnenfeld here last week running through everything she did to collapse the stock price and all that, the value of the company. This is a particular outrage for people who really know how tax policy works. MICHAEL DALY, SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT, THE DAILY BEAST: Well, I mean, it seems like, you know, kind of your classic corporate -- you know, you know, welfare. And then -- but when you see that word "Homeland", I mean, that really -- I don`t know about you. O`DONNELL: Yes -- DALY: But me, I mean, that was the time in 9/11 that all these kids going over, getting killed and maimed and coming back in coffins. And you know, you say that word "Homeland" and then all of a sudden they`re using that word to try to peddle this? That`s what really got me nuts. And then I think one other thing is everybody is looking at her performance with the company, but what they weren`t looking at is what she was doing with other companies to pull off a scam like this. O`DONNELL: Yes -- DALY: I mean, it was billions of dollars and the argument was, oh, well, you know, we`re going to get this money and it`s going to be research and development and we`re going to create jobs, it`s going to be good for everybody. Even the Bush White House was saying, you know, forget it. One of the people on the Economic Council said you might as well fly over Beverly Hills and start pushing cash out of a helicopter, that`s about how much -- O`DONNELL: And that`s a Republican economic adviser -- DALY: Yes -- O`DONNELL: To President Bush, I would -- DALY: Right before the bill was passed -- O`DONNELL: Right -- DALY: While she`s pushing this bill, you got Republicans in the Bush White House saying, this is a giveaway -- O`DONNELL: Yes, and wasn`t easy to outrage them -- DALY: Their call to the give -- O`DONNELL: Right -- DALY: Away -- (LAUGHTER) Now, the current Republican frontrunner for the presidential nomination is a big fan of this kind of giveaway. Let`s listen to him. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TRUMP: Where we have $2.5 trillion sitting outside, can`t come in, and now what`s happening is companies are leaving this country. You know, it used to be, you leave New York for Florida or you leave New Jersey for Texas or something, it used to be state to state, now it`s country to country. We have companies with thousands and thousands of jobs that are leaving this country -- UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What`s the Trump -- TRUMP: To go out and get their money -- UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So, what`s -- TRUMP: Let the money come in, tax it at a much lower rate and let the money come in. (END VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL: Michael, that`s the old song you hear -- DALY: Him -- he`s channeling Carly. O`DONNELL: Yes, and many others before Carly in industry who`ve always come to Washington saying, oh, you know, we`ve got all these billions parked outside the country, we`d love to bring them back in but you guys tax us. You know, and -- DALY: Well, you got to pay taxes like you and me -- O`DONNELL: Right -- DALY: I mean, you know, I`ve -- O`DONNELL: Right -- DALY: I mean, I got -- O`DONNELL: Right -- DALY: Some money packed in my pocket, you know, and I -- O`DONNELL: Yes -- DALY: I`d love to keep it in Luxembourg, but, you know, I can`t, I need it for the rent. So -- but you know -- but for him to say that there`s trillions of dollars out there and that they can`t bring it in -- what do you mean they can`t bring it in? They can bring it in tomorrow morning, they just got to pay taxes on them - - O`DONNELL: Yes, and that`s -- and that`s the game, is to hold it out there as long as it takes, years of lobbying to get this kind of bill passed so then we can bring it back in for free -- DALY: You know, interesting study at the University of Kansas did, where they determined that for every dollar spent lobbying, they got $220 on average in tax breaks. I mean, so that`s a pretty good return. O`DONNELL: And when they get the money, they cut jobs. DALY: That`s it. O`DONNELL: That`s an amazing story, Michael Daly, thank you very much -- DALY: Thank you -- O`DONNELL: For joining us tonight. Coming up next, what Pope Francis is really saying in Washington. What he wants people to hear. Is it really a political message? And later, in the rewrite, there is a question to ask Donald Trump that will go to the heart of the most important possible presidential activity in the Oval office. That activity is the finding of fact, the sorting out truth from untruth. We know how Donald Trump has done that in the past and there`s a right way to ask him about it now. And most interviewers don`t ask him about it, but Stephen Colbert did last night. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) O`DONNELL: In a short speech at the White House this morning, the Pope raised one of the most divisive political issues in Washington; climate change. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) BERGOGLIO: Mr. President, I find it encouraging that you are proposing an initiative for reducing air pollution. (APPLAUSE) Accepting the urgency, it seems clear to me also that climate change is a problem we can no longer be left to our future generation. (END VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL: Thousands lined the streets of Washington to greet the pope, including 5-year-old Sophia Cruz. Pope Francis called the little girl to him as she sat on her father`s shoulders, she gave the pontiff a letter and a T-shirt. Sophia was born in the United States but her parents are undocumented immigrants. She and her family traveled from Los Angeles to see the pope and Sophia also came with a message for the pope. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SOPHIA CRUZ, LITTLE GIRL BLESSED BY POPE FRANCIS: Pope Francis, I want to tell you that my heart is sad and I would like to ask you to speak with the President and the Congress in legalizing my parents. Because every day, I am scared that one day they will take them away from me. I believe I have the right to live with my parents. I have the right to be happy. (END VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL: Tomorrow, Pope Francis addresses a joint meeting of Congress. Joining us now, father Matt Malone, editor-in-chief of "America Magazine", also with us, Rick Wilson and Maria Teresa Kumar. Father Malone, everyone watching this is wondering how much of this does the -- does the Pope intend to be political and when he goes straight into climate change at the White House in Washington, he must have been advised that this is a hot political issue. And how much of it does he consider just to be the essence of his preaching? MATT MALONE, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, AMERICA MAGAZINE: Well, I think it`s important to remember that the Pope is by definition a political figure. O`DONNELL: Yes -- MALONE: He leads -- is the spiritual leader of nearly 1.5 billion people, he`s a head of state -- O`DONNELL: He has ambassadors. MALONE: He has ambassadors -- O`DONNELL: He receives ambassadors, yes -- MALONE: He does, right, since the time of Charlemagne, he may have done that at the Holy See. So, I -- but I -- while the Pope is a political figure, he is not a politician in this -- O`DONNELL: Right -- MALONE: That -- which would -- O`DONNELL: Right -- MALONE: Right understand that, right? O`DONNELL: Yes -- MALONE: And he sees his job to propose, not impose. And that -- and what he is proposing is what he sees as how the moral mandate of the gospel and the Catholic social teaching ought to be applied in our contemporary world. O`DONNELL: And Maria Teresa, we see Sophia being brought to the pope there. And this is -- this is -- this girl, this is what Donald Trump calls an anchor baby. I want to hear in the next debate how they -- how Donald Trump believes Sophia should be treated, when and how Sophia should be arrested with the rest of her family and sent back out of this country. KUMAR: Sophia`s an American, and she`s advocating for her parents. And sadly, Sophia represents millions of kids that are under 18 years old, actually having to bring on -- shoulder the burdens of adulthood at such an early age. The fact that we are looking at her -- looking at her and not ashamed that we`re not doing something about it is not only ungodly, but at the same time, it`s un-American. And when Trump uses words such as anchor babies, it`s not any different than saying tar babies. They`re talking -- he`s mixing up a pot that unless the Republican Party actually stands up and puts a mirror to his face saying what he`s doing, it`s going to get really uncomfortable, and that`s not presidential. O`DONNELL Rick Wilson, we have a Republican congressman Paul Cossar who is going to boycott, he says he`s going to boycott the Pope`s speech tomorrow because he doesn`t like what he expects the Pope to say about climate change, which is I suppose is any sentence involving the phrase climate change. And I`ve got to say, talking to Father Matt Malone here about it, I couldn`t be more shocked as catholic educated. (END VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL: Paul Gosar is apparently Jesuit educated. The notion that you would boycott a speech by the Pope because there`s a -- there`s a sentence or an idea in it that you disagree with politically? I can`t find the Catholic explanation for that. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) WILSON: Well, look, I`m not going to -- I`m not going to have a doctrinal fight about why Paul made that decision. But look I think there`s a tendency in Washington right now on both the left and the right to project your desired political outcomes and political believes on the Holy Father. And I think there`s a certain tendency you know on the left to say, well, he`s with us on climate change, income, and equality. And on the right to say he`s with us on gay marriage and abortion. I think there`s way too much political projection on to the Pope right now. And his spiritual message gets lost in the shuffle rather significantly in that because everyone is trying to sort of leverage a political you know advantage off of what ought to be a primarily spiritual visit. Even though there is a spiritual aspect to the Pope`s leadership of the Catholic Church. O`DONNELL: But Rick let me just as you I mean as a republican political strategist, as a Catholic, what would you have advised Paul Gosar to do, if he said to you you know I`m going to boycott the speech because I don`t like what he`s going to say about climate change. WILSON: Well look I don`t think it will make any significant political difference to him one way or the other. He made his point about it. And frankly, it`s -- for Catholics, it`s such a unique moment that I would have had trouble staying away from it regardless of what he was going to say politically. I like Paul, he`s a good guy, he`s a solid conservative. But he made a decision on this and like I said I don`t think there`s a bigger political implication to it. And I think -- I think you know that the climate change argument alone would not be sufficient to keep me away from it. It`s a unique moment in history. O`DONNELL: Father Malone, what would you say to Paul Gosar, if someone -- a congressman said to you, I`m not going to go to the speech because I don`t like what he`s going to say about climate change. Or anything. Let`s say on the other side a liberal said to you I`m not going to go to the speech because I don`t like what he said about abortion today in Washington, which her did say. MALONE:Yes, I think there`s too much in this country of people saying that they`re going to stop listening because they don`t agree with people. And particularly in this context where you have this global religious leader and a head of state coming to address a joint section of congress, it seems it`s a basic matter of courtesy and stability to go with an open mind and open ears. O`DONNELL: So will tomorrow -- how would you describe it? Will this be a political speech? Will this be a religious speech? What are -- what are the set of adjectives you would expect to apply to this speech? MALONE:Well I think religious and political are two good ones . I think it will be both. O`DONNELL: You`re not shying away from the idea that the pope is here and will speak politically. MALONE: No, absolutely not. Because it`s -every Pope, when the Pope speaks, speaks politically. What he says has political implications. What we have in this country is a separation of church and state. But the separation of religion from politics is almost inconceivable. And it`s not envisioned by our constitutional arrangement or by the founders of this country. There is a -- there is a legitimate place for religion in the -- in the -- in the public debate. It tends to bring some sunshine into the darker corners of the world in which we don`t always shine a light. And it provides a moral context for the discussion of what our public policy should be. So no, I don`t shy away with it. (END VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL: The last word on the Pope tonight goes to Father Matt Malone as is appropriate, I think we all agree (inaudible). Thank you for joining us Rick Wilson, thank you for joining us. Up next in "The Rewrite" Donald Trump tries to rewrite history (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL: And in the process lies about Hillary Clinton. (END VIDEO CLIP) (COMMERCIAL BREAK) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) COLBERT: Barack Obama, born in the United States. Go. It`s a meatball. It`s hanging out there. Just right there. Come on! (APPLAUSE) TRUMP: You want to know-I don`t talk about it anymore. COLBERT: You don`t talk about it? TRUMP: I talk about jobs. I talk about our veterans being horribly treated. I just don`t discuss it. COLBERT: You know that meatball is now being dragged down the steps of a subway by a rat right now. TRUMP: You`re right I saw that. COLBERT: You missed the meatball. (END VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL: He missed the meatball. Doesn`t talk about it anymore. Here he is not talking about it today. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TRUMP: And Hillary, who`s become very shrill, you know the word shrill? She`s become shrill. She was saying what I said about Obama. And yet in 2008, she was the original birther. She`s the one that started that whole thing. Hillary is a birther. By the way, don`t switch your votes to Hillary, please. But Hillary is the one that started it. (END VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL: Every time, and I mean every time, Donald Trump talks about President Obama`s birth certificate, he lies. He lied about it last night with Stephen Colbert when he said he doesn`t talk about it anymore. There he was talking about it today. And then when he talked about it today, he lied about Hillary Clinton. He said she was saying what I said about Obama. Hillary is a birther. Those are his words today. Both of those sentences are lies. Hillary Clinton has never, ever suggested this President Obama was not born in Hawaii. She has never said what Donald Trump said about the President`s birth. Donald Trump doesn`t know how to talk about the President`s birth without lying about it. Even the lie that he doesn`t talk about it anymore. Here is why interviewers should never stop asking Donald Trump about the President`s birth certificate. It is the single best possible preview of how Donald Trump would evaluate information, especially intelligence information in the oval office. The President has to do that every day. Voters should worry about a President unable to distinguish fact from fantasy. Voters should worry about just how easily a president could be misled by bad information. As George W. Bush was when the CIA director told him that it was a slam dunk, that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. This is serious business. George W. Bush went to war in Iraq because he was unable to distinguish good information from bad information. In his first round of lying about President Obama`s birth certificate four years ago Donald Trump lied about having top secret intelligence about the President`s birth. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TRUMP: You are not allowed to be a President if you`re not born in this country. He may not have been born in this country. And I`ll tell you what, three weeks ago, I thought he was born in this country. Right now I have some real doubts. I have people that actually have been studying it and they cannot believe what they`re finding. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You have people now down searching in Hawaii? TRUMP: Absolutely. And they cannot believe what they`re finding. (END VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL: That`s what Donald Trump looks like when he`s lying. In other words, that`s the way he looks every day. I said at the time that Donald Trump was lying in every word that he was saying about the President`s birth four years ago, including lying about sending people to Hawaii to investigate it. He never sent anyone to Hawaii. He just lied about that. In the same way that Dick Cheney pushed the lie within the Bush administration about Saddam Hussein trying to obtain uranium for nuclear weapons from Africa. President Bush was never presented with absolute proof that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction and he was never presented with absolute proof that Saddam Hussein did not have weapons of mass destruction. We do not know whether President Bush would have recognized absolute proof if he had seen it. We do know that Donald Trump is incapable of recognizing absolute proof when he sees it. Here is the proof that President Obama was born in Hawaii. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL: There isn`t a court in America that would not accept that birth certificate as proof. Here`s what Donald Trump says about that proof. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A few years ago, you led the birther movement. You sent investigators out to Hawaii to find out whether or not Obama, which you say was not born here. And it turned out to not be true so why should they believe you here? TRUMP: Well, I don`t know, according to you it`s not true. I don`t know, you know . UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He released his birth certificate. TRUMP: You know, if you believe that, that`s fine. It`s an old subject. I`m about jobs, I`m about security, I`m about fixing the military, I`m about taking care of our vets. I`m about things that you don`t have to bring up old subjects. Whether he did or not, who knows. A lot of people don`t agree with you on that, by the way. (END VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL: Four years later, Donald Trump still doesn`t believe President Obama`s birth certificate is President Obama`s birth certificate. You could not ask for a better illustration of how a President Trump would evaluate the information. And that is the single most important presidential skill. Being able to separate truths from untruths. The interviewers who get a chance to question Donald Trump and don`t ask him about the President`s birth certificate are in effect adopting the position that if a presidential candidate continue continues to lie about something long enough, then those interviewers will eventually just give up and allow the lie to live. Those interviewers are also missing the perfect opportunity to examine the fact-finding skills that Donald Trump would use in the oval office. What could be more important than that? (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) GEORGE W. BUSH, THEN-PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The British Government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa. (END VIDEO CLIP) (COMMERCIAL BREAK) O`DONNELL: Late night comedy shows have become mandatory stops for presidential candidates it seems there`s a presidential candidate on one of the shows every night. Here are some of the highlights so far this campaign season. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) COLBERT: I want to thank you not only for being here, I want to thank you for running for President. TRUMP: I`m liking him a lot. COLBERT: I`m liking you too. What do you make of what`s the name Donald Trump? I`ve heard of him. HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: You know this is a huge election. You never know what might happen. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s going to be really classy. It`s going to be fantastic. It`s going to be huge. COLBERT: Say something nice about Carly Fiorina? TRUMP: I think she`s a very nice woman. Really a nice woman. Am I doing a good job? COLBERT: I want to ask you to do something silly because that`s what our show is all about. CARLY FIORINA (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: My name`s Snick and I`m lazy, please don`t take a walk with me, I`d rather stay right here at home in bed, I want to lie back down in my nice warm bed. My name`s Snick and you`re going to have to carry me. COLBERT: I want to give your office the respect it deserves. How much is that? I think you`re very, very, very tough. I know you`re a tough mother and I know you are a grandmother as well but you`re a tough mother. CLINTON: A tough mother? COLBERT: No, no, no. Do you think America is ready for the first socialist President? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yeah, I do. I do. COLBERT: Your campaign poster is just Jeb! With a JEB! Why the Jeb! Why? JEB BUSH (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Because I`ve been using Jeb since 1994. It connotes excitement. It connotes [laughing] COLBERT: Jeb! I want to talk about the elephant in the room which in this case is a donkey. Do you have anything you`d like to tell us right now about your plans. JOE BIDEN, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Yes. [Applause]. I think you should run for President again and I`ll be your vice president. (END VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL: Up next more on the late night comedians and the campaign. And later, the comedian of Boston Harbor. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL: The Boston guy who went viral today screaming about a wicked big fish. You`ve got to see this. There will be bleeping. But I think you`ll understand every word he says. (END VIDEO CLIP) (COMMERCIAL BREAK) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) COLBERT: For years I played an over the top like conservative you know character. Not as long as you did, but for many years. (END VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL: Joining us now Dave Itzkoff, culture reporter for the New York Times. It`s that season again, Dave, and these shows become remarkably important. At least the candidates seem to think so. They all line up to do them. DAVE ITZKOFF, CULTURE REPORTER, NEW YORK TIMES: It`s amazing, isn`t it? I think because there are just more candidates than ever. It also sort of feels like more late night shows an ever. All these shows needs ways to stand out. They`ve all attached themselves to certain candidates. Colbert, premiering as the host of Late Show, sort of just as the presidential election is ramping up. I mean it`s a great opportunity for Colbert, but it also has I think increased the competiveness of the bookings. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) ITZKOFF: And so people really want I think to tie kind of down these candidates as soon as possible, take ownership of them, give them an association with one of their shows as quickly as they can. O`DONNELL: And Stephen Colbert has brought seriousness to some of these interviewees that we haven`t seen before. He always makes sure they`re funny, but let`s take a look at this moment with Vice President Joe Biden, for example. COLBERT: You said this weekend that you don`t know if you are emotionally prepared to run for President. BIDEN: Look, I don`t think any man or woman should run for President unless, number one, they know exactly why they would want to be President and two, they can look at the folks out there and say I promise you, you have my whole heart, my whole soul, my energy and my passion to do this. And I`d be lying if I said that I knew I was there. (END VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL: It`s hard to imagine that interview going that way and all the ways that it went before Stephen Colbert was doing The Late Night shows. ITZKOFF: Absolutely. I mean not only in the clip that you showed us but throughout it was a very touching conversation, a very sincere conversation between these two men. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) ITZKOFF: Because of elements that they share in their lives, not only their Catholicism but also lives that have been touched by personal tragedies, they relate in that way. And Colbert I think in particular is an interviewer just giving the Vice President the space to speak about these things and not interrupt him, not cracking jokes the whole time. You can`t really think of too many television personalities in general that would give him the room to do that, to have that conversation. (END VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL: The oldest political player of them all in this field late night show is "Saturday Night Live" which has not yet weighed in on this campaign. Let`s take a look back to one of the most important "Saturday Night Live" takes on a presidential campaign. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE, HOST: We are almost out of time. So I will instead ask each candidate to sum up in a single word the best argument for his candidacy. Governor Bush? BUSH: Strategary. HOST: Vice president, Gore? VICE PRESIDENT GORE: Lock box. (END VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL: SNL was able to reduce each one of those candidates to one word. And we`re going to see what they do with this field of candidates pretty soon. ITZKOFF: Yes, I mean it does seem like they`ve already got their sights on Hillary Clinton. They`ve got Kate McKinnon coming back to play her. And I think Donald Trump is clearly going to be a prime target of theirs. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) ITZKOFF: That I think this year they`re going to have Taron Killam start to play him. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) ITZKOFF: And so there`s certainly an expectation that those are the two main targets. (END VIDEO CLIP) ITZKOFF: So beware if you`re Hilary Clinton or Donald Trump. O"DONNELL: Can`t wait, Dave Itzkoff, thanks for joining us. ITZKOFF: My pleasure, thank you. O`DONNELL: Up next, a video that`s been viewed over a million times now on line. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL: We`re going to play it here and you`re going to meet the man behind the camera. The guy you never see in this video, but you hear. You really hear him. (END VIDEO CLIP) (COMMERCIAL BREAK) O`DONNELL: Jaws was a big scary fish story about a giant shark off the coast of Massachusetts. Another big scary fish story in the Boston area has gone viral today, thanks to a video that "The Daily Beast" describes this way -- (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL: Fish gets most Boston reaction ever. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh look a baby whale. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s a baby [ bleep ] whale, man. Holy [ bleep ], we are witnessing a baby [ bleep ] whale right here, dude. Holy [ bleep ]. We`re seeing some [ bleep ] we ain`t never seen before, kid. Oh, my god, that thing looks dead, man. We got to call the aquarium or something, dude. Jay stop, here it is, right here, Jay. Oh, man, look at this [ bleep ] thing. Holy [ bleep ]. What is that have [ bleep ] thing? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s a big flounder, man, UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If that`s a flounder man, let`s put it in, Jay. Come on. Jay, Jay, we could get some big money for that if it`s a [ bleep ] fish, buddy. Come on. Let`s [ bleep ] hook that [ bleep ] and we`ll be on the [ bleep ] news, man. It needs help, whatever it is, dude. It`s dying. Jay, let`s get it. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yeah, he`s dying buddy. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let`s get it. Let`s get it. Oh, man, Jay, that is a [ bleep ] -- that`s a tuna, bro. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jay that`s a tuna or something, Jay. Look at it. Come on. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It looks like a flounder with the fins. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, man, Jay, let`s put it in. Dude. Look at that [ bleep ] thing. Oh, my god. Jay`s got a little [ bleep ] fishing hook. Are you telling me that`s the hook you come? Oh, my god! Oh, we got it! Oh [ bleep ], Jay. Oh, my [ bleep ] god. Jay, that is still good meat on that fish, kid. Am I lying? Holy [ bleep ]! Look at you mother [ bleep ]! Oh, my god, Jay. Look at him, he`s trying to get away. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What kind of fish is it? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who the [ bleep ] knows. It`s Moby Dick! (END VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL: Was it Moby Dick? Was it a flounder? Was it a Tuna? The man behind the video will tell us. END