The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell, Transcript 09/17/15

Tana Goertz, Jeffrey Sonnenfeld, Stuart Stevens, Austan Goolsbee, Eugene Robinson, Michael Dantonio

RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC: That does it for us tonight, we`ll see you again
tomorrow, now it`s time for THE LAST WORD with Lawrence O`Donnell, good
evening Lawrence.

LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, HOST, THE LAST WORD: Well, Rachel, six hours, that
means Scott Walker might get more than eight minutes.


Just might.

MADDOW: And will anybody notice? Will it make a sound?

O`DONNELL: We`ll see.

MADDOW: Thanks, Lawrence.

O`DONNELL: Thank you, Rachel. Well, the head of Donald Trump`s campaign
in Iowa will be tonight`s first guest on the program.

And the first question to Donald Trump tonight in New Hampshire brought him
back to his political roots. Birtherism is back.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have a problem in this country called Muslims. We
know our current president is one.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know he`s not even an American.

TRUMP: We need this question –

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Birth certificate –

TRUMP: This is the –


TRUMP: First question –

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is racist crap, of course.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you got a glimpse of his supporters there.

TRUMP: Last night, we had a little thing called the debate.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As usual, I was fantastic.

JEB BUSH, FORMER FLORIDA GOVERNOR: I`ve been the guy that`s taken him on.
Ever ready, it`s very high energy, Donald.


I think I did a fine job.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you writing all this down?



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was Carly Fiorina who ran away with the headlines.

heard very clearly what Mr. Trump said.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That terse rebuttal to his disparaging comments about

TRUMP: She`s got a beautiful face and I think she`s a beautiful woman.

CLINTON: You know, this is just a silly season.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I hope we`re looking for substance and not celebrity.

TRUMP: Tom Brady, he endorsed me yesterday.

CONAN O`BRIEN, COMEDIAN & TELEVISION HOST: Which is really weird because I
thought Brady didn`t like things that are filled with too much air. So –


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is the Summer of Trump over?

CLINTON: Yes, this is a huge election, you never know what might happen.


O`DONNELL: Donald Trump has apparently run out of new material for speech,
and so he made the mistake in New Hampshire tonight of just handing over
his appearance to the audience to let them ask questions.

And his first questioner who Trump chose because he said “I like this guy”,
pulled back the curtain on the hatred that is the jet-fuel of the Trump for
president campaign.


TRUMP: OK, this man, I like this guy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) Amen, OK? We have a problem in this
country, it`s called Muslims. We know our current president is one.

TRUMP: Right.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know, he`s not even an American.

TRUMP: We need this question –

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Birth certificate –

TRUMP: This is the –


TRUMP: First question –

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But anyway, we have training camps growing where they
want to kill us. That`s my question. When can we get rid of them?

TRUMP: We`re going to be looking at a lot of different things. And you
know, a lot of people are saying that and a lot of people are saying that
bad things are happening out there.

We`re going to be looking at that and plenty of other things.


O`DONNELL: Eight years ago, John McCain modeled what every presidential
candidate needs to say in that situation.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I can`t trust Obama.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have read about him and he`s not – he`s not –
he`s an Arab. He is not?

MCCAIN: No, ma`am –


MCCAIN: No, ma`am. No, ma`am. No, ma`am. He`s a – he`s a – he`s a
decent family man, citizen that I just happen to have disagreements with on
fundamental issues and that`s what this campaign is all about. He`s not,
thank you.



O`DONNELL: Of course, Donald Trump is no John McCain. Donald Trump
obviously still believes that John McCain was wrong when he said the
President of the United States is a citizen of the United States.


TRUMP: You are not allowed to be a president if you`re not born in this
country. He may not have been born in this country.

And I`ll tell you what, three weeks ago, I thought he was born in this
country, right now, I have some real doubts.

I have people that actually have been studying it and they cannot believe
what they`re finding.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You have people now down there –

TRUMP: Absolutely –

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Searching, I mean, in Hawaii? –

TRUMP: Absolutely, and they cannot believe what they`re finding.


O`DONNELL: Joining us now is Tana Goertz, the co-chair of Donald Trump`s
presidential campaign in Iowa and a former contestant on “Nbc`s” “The

Thanks for joining us tonight, Miss Goertz. Could you tell us –

CAMPAIGN IN IOWA: You`re welcome –

O`DONNELL: Did you interpret Donald Trump`s answer tonight when that man
said that the President is a Muslim and Donald Trump said right.

Did you interpret that to be, Donald, your candidate agreeing with that
man`s statement?

GOERTZ: Absolutely not. I mean, that`s one of the disadvantages that Mr.
Trump has when he doesn`t use teleprompters and he doesn`t tell his team
that he needs to see all the questions before he gets them.

I mean, he is unscripted, unstaged, and he`s real. And when he said I like
this guy, he probably was talking about he likes the way the guy is

It had nothing to do with I like this guy because I know what his question
is going to be. No, absolutely not. He never was agreeing with what that
gentleman was saying.

He was just taking the question and when he was like we`re looking into it,
we`re looking into it. He was defusing what was – could potentially have
been a disaster.

TRUMP: And a recent poll showed that 66 percent of Trump`s supporters
believe that President Obama is a Muslim. Are you one of those 66 percent
who believe that President Obama is a Muslim?

GOERTZ: No, I do not. I do not believe that and Mr. Trump probably does
not believe that as well. And that is not – that was not part of the

That was not what he was looking for. That was a gentleman who was very
unhappy with the country, just like Mr. Trump is and a lot of Americans

I mean, we – I know I`m hitting the streets and the voters are very
frightened for where this country is headed and that`s why Mr. Trump is in
the leading position because they want an outsider to take over the
presidency and correct this and make America great again.

O`DONNELL: You said you think Donald Trump probably doesn`t think what
this man said. Do you know if Donald Trump still believes that President
Obama is a Muslim? Because that`s something that he publicly wondered about
years ago.

GOERTZ: No, I do not know exactly. We haven`t had that discussion, no –


GOERTZ: That is not something that I have to discuss –

O`DONNELL: The Trump – the Trump campaign issued a response to us when we
asked for clarification from Donald Trump about whether he was expressing
agreement with the questioner tonight there in New Hampshire.

And hit – this is the entirety of the Trump campaign`s response to that
question, seeking clarification of exactly what candidate Trump meant

This is what the campaign said: “Donald Trump`s response simply means
Christians – this is quote, “Christians need support in this country,
their religious liberty is at stake.”

Tana Goertz, does that clarify for you whether Donald Trump agreed with the
questioner tonight?

GOERTZ: That was enough for me, absolutely. We`re not here to talk about
President Obama, we`re here to talk about what Donald Trump is going to do
to make America great again.

He got his first question – you know, people are handing him land mines
and people – I mean, I can`t expect a reporter to come in and handle
himself in a professional manner.

We do not know if that was a plant. I mean, my goodness, I`ve –

O`DONNELL: Do you think –

GOERTZ: Been a part of this from day one, I see what the media is trying
to do and it`s just not working because the voters decide.

And the voters are speaking and we saw the polls with “Newsweek” and “Time”
and the “Drudge Report”. I mean, we saw what happened last night at the

The voters are speaking. They are not going to allow the Washington
insiders to make the decision for them. They`re making their own minds up.

O`DONNELL: Do you think –


O`DONNELL: Do you think –

GOERTZ: They like my candidate.

O`DONNELL: Do you think John McCain handled that same moment better eight
years ago than your candidate did tonight?

GOERTZ: No, I`m not going to say better or worse. But I know Donald Trump
very well. I actually know the man. I`m not just working for him, I know
him well.

And Mr. Trump will not pretend to have a wonderful relationship with the
President of the United States. He`s made it very clear, he does not like
the way the government has been run.

He does not like the way our country is going and he blames that on our
current president. And that is not a secret, that is not a surprise to
anyone – so absolutely not.

I mean, Mr. McCain handled it the way he wanted to handle it, politically
correct. Mr. Trump, the reason why he`s resonating so well is he is not
saying the things that are comfortable, that are – that are easy to say
and that are popular.

He`s saying the hard things. And guess what? The voters like what they`re
hearing. They`re not swayed by some skew of how Mr. Trump acted towards a
question that was about a president that he is not a fan of. That`s

O`DONNELL: And there was a second question like this from the audience.
Let`s listen to this one and Mr. Trump`s response.


TRUMP: Go ahead.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I applaud the gentleman who brought up the Muslim
training camps here in the USA, the FBI knows all about that.

TRUMP: Right.


O`DONNELL: So there was another opportunity, he`s being told by this
questioner that he applauds the first questioner, and the only thing Donald
Trump said about that was, “right”.

GOERTZ: Right, it`s called let`s move on, give me your question because
I`m here, I`m not scripted, I`m not staged, I don`t know what you`re going
to ask me, let`s talk about what I`m going to do to make America great

Yes, he is like a mover, let`s go, come on, like I don`t have time for
that. Next, right, yes, let`s go.

O`DONNELL: When you –

GOERTZ: That`s – I mean –

O`DONNELL: When you`re with Donald Trump, can you ask him any question you
want and talk about anything you want?

GOERTZ: Anything, absolutely.

O`DONNELL: Did you –

GOERTZ: We talk about anything, absolutely.

O`DONNELL: Did you ever get around to asking him what his detectives found
in Hawaii since he promised to reveal that and to this day he`s never
revealed a word of what he says his detectives –

GOERTZ: He`ll –

O`DONNELL: Found in Hawaii –

GOERTZ: Reveal it when the time is right. I have never had a care –

O`DONNELL: The time is not right, yet? –

GOERTZ: In the world about it.


GOERTZ: Pardon me? –

O`DONNELL: When will the time be right to reveal? He said to Meredith
Vieira that it was absolutely unbelievable what his detectives were finding
in Hawaii four years ago.

He`s never told you about it, you`ve never asked him about it, it was
unbelievable –


O`DONNELL: And you weren`t curious –

GOERTZ: Listen –

O`DONNELL: About it?

GOERTZ: Never was curious once because he`s not a liar, if they found
something, it will come out, the time isn`t right, and guess what? Mr.
Trump does what he wants and he`s not going to do it on our time.

He`s going to do it when the timing is perfectly strategic and it`s not now
and it`s – it wasn`t the place for him to stay –

O`DONNELL: Will there ever be a right time to reveal what his detectives
found about President Obama in Hawaii?

GOERTZ: That`s up to Mr. Trump, I don`t make those calls. I don`t make
those calls and I`ve never had a care in the world because my focus is
getting Donald Trump into the White House and I`ve got a laser focus on
that goal and nothing else matters.

O`DONNELL: OK, and just to get – clarify one other thing. Do you believe
President Obama was born in the United States? Do you believe he was born
in Hawaii? –

GOERTZ: I do not know. Once again, I don`t care! I have –

O`DONNELL: No, but –

GOERTZ: Not a concern in the world about President Obama.

O`DONNELL: Do you –

GOERTZ: I honestly – when Mr. Trump said it, I went – you know what,
stranger things have happened.

O`DONNELL: Do you believe the birth certificate that`s been revealed is
fake? –

GOERTZ: And when all the birth certificate stuff came up, why didn`t he
just produce the birth certificate.

O`DONNELL: He did. Do you believe –

GOERTZ: That was interesting –

O`DONNELL: The birth certificate is fake?

GOERTZ: I have not a clue. I really don`t know –

O`DONNELL: Have you ever looked at it?

GOERTZ: I – no – I`ve never looked at it, never looked at it –


GOERTZ: I – once again, my interest is not on President Obama. My
interest is on Donald Trump. Mr. Trump is a smart man.

He`s got all of his facts and I thought – I actually appreciated that he
was questioning that because there was a lot of Americans that were also
thinking the same thing.

Once again, he does what`s not popular, that`s not comfortable, that is a
little more uncomfortable to handle and he does the hard – he does the
dirty work for Americans and that`s why he`s number one in the polls.

People love him because he is doing our work for us. And he is taking all
the blows and all the punches and dealing with people like that, that are
in his media forum.

And he`s handling it and he`s doing a great job. We couldn`t be more proud
of Mr. Trump. And I`m hitting the streets here in Iowa, everyone loves

O`DONNELL: Tana Goertz, co-chair of Donald Trump`s campaign in Iowa, thank
you very much for joining us tonight, really appreciate it –

GOERTZ: You`re welcome.

O`DONNELL: Joining us now –

GOERTZ: Thank you –

O`DONNELL: Eugene Robinson and Stuart Stevens who was a campaign manager,
Mitt Romney`s campaign last time around.

Stuart, quickly, before we got to go to a break – but Donald Trump does
the dirty work. That`s what they love about him.

ROMNEY: Let`s hope not. Listen, I find Donald Trump as a businessman,
someone you can admire.

He`s paid a lot in taxes, he`s given a lot to charity, he`s done a lot of
good things here in New York. I find him as a presidential candidate sort
of ridiculous.

And I don`t think he`s going to be the nominee of the Republican Party.

O`DONNELL: All right, we`re going to come back with more, we got to take a
quick break here. Also coming up, the professor and the politician Donald
Trump and Carly Fiorina are (AUDIO GAP: 00:03:14-18) later.


O`DONNELL: We have now a new response from the Trump campaign about
whether candidate Trump agreed with his first questioner tonight in New
Hampshire who said that President Obama is a Muslim.

Here is that new response from the campaign: “To be clear, Mr. Trump`s
response to the question regarding training camps in this country was we
will look into it.”

Gene Robinson, does that clarify for you what Mr. Trump was thinking when
he was hearing about President Obama? –

clear, right? I mean, I don`t know, I don`t – I have no idea what that`s
supposed to mean.

That was only part of the questioner ever called, you know, the whole –
like, he`s a Muslim thing. So –

O`DONNELL: All right –


O`DONNELL: A quick break, we`ll see if there`s another response during
this commercial break from the Trump campaign about what he really meant
tonight. We`ll be right back.



TRUMP: OK, this man, I like this guy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) Amen, OK? We have a problem in this
country, it`s called Muslims. We know our current president is one.

TRUMP: Right.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know, he`s not even an American.

TRUMP: We need this question –

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Birth certificate –

TRUMP: This is the –


TRUMP: First question –

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But anyway, we have training camps growing where they
want to kill us. That`s my question. When can we get rid of them? –

TRUMP: We`re going to be looking at a lot of different things. And you
know, a lot of people are saying that and a lot of people are saying that
bad things are happening out there.

We`re going to be looking at that and plenty of other things.


O`DONNELL: Back with us tonight, Eugene Robinson, opinion writer for “The
Washington Post” and an Msnbc political analyst, also with us, Stuart
Stevens, columnist for “The Daily Beast” and former chief strategist for
Mitt Romney`s presidential campaign.

He is the author of the new book “Last Season: A Father, a Son and a
Lifetime of College Football”. Stuart, I`m going to just hold the book
right here –


There`s the camera, there it is the camera –


O`DONNELL: But we`re going to –


We`re going to get to this book, but we`ve had this breaking news that
we`ve got to talk about tonight. Gene, there it is, again, we shared –


O`DONNELL: That – we showed that moment, that Trump moment. And there`s
been a lot of polling about who the Trump supporters are. A lot of
Republican speculation about who they are. The first question out of the
gate tonight –


O`DONNELL: Was one of 66 percent of Trump supporters –


O`DONNELL: Who believe that President Obama is lying when he says he`s a

ROBINSON: Right, so number one, it means, there are a lot of people out
there who believe that because –


ROBINSON: Donald Trump has a lot of supporters –

O`DONNELL: Yes, to be fair to Trump supporters, here`s the picture of the
country you live in. Twenty nine percent of Americans think that President
Obama is a Muslim, 54 percent of Republicans think that President Obama is
a Muslim, 66 percent of Trump supporters.

ROBINSON: That`s stunning to me, especially, like seem to recall there`s a
certain Christian Pastor who got into a whole lot of trouble a few years

But you know, be that as it may, the reason Trump`s reaction is so
interesting is, you know, the question of how calculated was it?

I mean, is the voice inside his head saying, I have to kind of roll with
this because this is my base, these are my peeps. I cannot alienate these
people by telling the truth –

O`DONNELL: Let`s just – let`s just pause inside that moment for a second
because in the – in the thinking exercise that you`re doing right there,
you are presuming that inside Trump`s head, he knows what he just heard is
crazy as opposed to inside Trump`s head –

ROBINSON: Well, that`s true –

O`DONNELL: He actually thinks that is right –

ROBINSON: I made that leap –

O`DONNELL: And all the –

ROBINSON: I made that leap –

O`DONNELL: Public evidence indicates he thinks that`s right.

ROBINSON: Well, I made the leap.

O`DONNELL: That`s –

ROBINSON: I made the leap.

O`DONNELL: But yes –

ROBINSON: Yes, but no, you`re right –

O`DONNELL: Even if he thought, hey, I was only kidding about it –


O`DONNELL: He knows he can`t back off because his record on it – his
verbal record is so wrong.

ROBINSON: Right, because he knows that the political establishment and
indeed all reasonable people would expect him to do something like what
John McCain did.

Right, he knows that`s certainly the more acceptable thing to do. He`s
coming off of a pretty bad night last night, or not a great night last
night, and he`s got to be thinking about his standing, how does he get his
momentum back?

So, he had a choice, right? He could have gone one way or the other, and he
decided to go that way.

O`DONNELL: It does seem historically when you look at the numbers and you
look at the 66 percent of the supporters believe this, that if he had done
anything, any kind of correcting, he would have lost some votes there

STEVENS: Listen, I think this is – it`s difficult running for president.
You`re beginning to see Donald Trump run up against reality. It was a –
it`s a dumb thing to do.

And I don`t think he`s that calculating about it, I just don`t think he
knows any better well as a candidate. And you can`t let somebody say
something like that and not correct it.

It`s sort of candidate 101. And I think that most candidates –

O`DONNELL: Right –

STEVENS: Everybody else on that stage last night would have known that and
would have said something. And it`s just – you know, Donald Trump has
been fun.

He`s been having fun, and it`s always fun to hang out with people who are
having fun. I think as this thing goes on, he`s going to have less fun and
I think that, that will draw less people.

And I think that there will be a process where you begin to look at him as
a serious presidential candidate, which I don`t think has happened yet.
And when it does, I think the guy is going to lose a ton of support.

O`DONNELL: During our break, you said something about the Muslim training
camps in America and where they really are.

STEVENS: Well, it`s so incredibly offensive to talk about Muslims in that
way. I mean, they`re as American as we are.

And if Muslims are being trained here in the United States army, they`re
being trained at Camp Pendleton, they`re being trained at Fort Bragg.

They`re out there dying for Americans.


STEVENS: It`s so offensive to begin to divide people like that. And you
just cannot be a candidate for president of the United States and allow
that sort of divisiveness to be public without taking a stand.

You just can`t. You`re not going to be a serious candidate of the United
States of America with that letting something like that go –

O`DONNELL: We haven`t gotten your official guess yet on this program, but
where you think Donald Trump`s ceiling is in the Republican vote in these
polls? –

STEVENS: Well, you know, April, 2011, April, 2011, when he wasn`t a
candidate –

O`DONNELL: Right –

STEVENS: He had 27 percent against Mitt Romney.


STEVENS: And I remember one –

O`DONNELL: When he was just pretending –


O`DONNELL: To maybe –

STEVENS: Yes, we joked about it. I remember Mitt saying, look I`m –


Losing to a guy who is not even in the race.

O`DONNELL: What was – he was ahead of Romney in the polls –

STEVENS: He was ahead of Romney. He was –


STEVENS: Like, you know, ten points ahead of –


STEVENS: Romney and we laughed about it –

O`DONNELL: Basically where he is now.

STEVENS: And where he is now. So, I mean, I think that, that shows that
there`s a certain number of people who are drawn to a guy named Donald

And they don`t know much about Donald Trump. It`s very different than
Bernie Sanders voters. Bernie Sanders voters know a lot about Bernie
Sanders in part because Bernie Sanders has been saying the same, you know,
thing for 40 years.

And these are not very informed voters about Donald Trump. And I think one
question to ask yourself is, I mean, going through these whole process.
Could this person be elected governor of this state?

Could Donald Trump be elected governor of Iowa? I don`t think so. Not as a
Republican nominee.

I don`t – unless there was some freak circumstance like Jesse Ventura with
three people running and you know, he gets the bank shot.

Could he be elected governor of New Hampshire? I don`t think so in a
million years. He`s not like anybody else. He`s been elected governor in
these states.

Could he be elected governor of South Carolina? No, I mean, he couldn`t be
more different than Graham who`s, you know, tremendously popular – just
got re-elected, but huge numbers.

O`DONNELL: All right, we`re going to have to take a break here, stay with
us. Up next, Carly Fiorina versus the professor. The professor will join



TRUMP: The head of the Yale Business School Jeffrey Sonnenfeld wrote a
paper and suddenly, one of the worst tenures for a CEO that he has ever
seen, ranked one of the top 20 in the history of business.

The company is a disaster and continues to be a disaster. So, I only say
this, she can`t run any of my companies. With that, I can tell you.


FIORINA: You know –

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I want to give you a chance to respond.

FIORINA: Jeffrey Sonnenfeld is a well-known Clintonite and honestly had it
out for me from the moment that I arrived at Hewlett-Packard.


O`DONNELL: That was last night at the Republican debate and tonight in New
Hampshire, Donald Trump said this.


TRUMP: So, with Carly, she did a terrible job at Lucent. She did a
terrible job at Hewlett-Packard, terrible job. Stories have been written
that are legendary.

The head of the Yale Business School, Jeffrey Sonnenfeld, you know who he
is, right? He wrote a story that was so brutal. And I mean, people are
going to have to read this.


O`DONNELL: Joining us now, Jeffrey Sonnenfeld, Senior Associate Dean for
Leadership Studies at Yale School of Management. Professor Sonnenfeld, I`m
so sorry to have to give your accurate title.

Donald Trump has promoted you to the head of the Yale Business School, but,
you know, we`re just –

SCHOOL OF MANAGEMENT: Lawrence, thank you so much, it tells me no good.

Last week was Chuck Todd on “Nbc” on “Meet the Press”, he promoted me to
the Dean of the law school.


I`m waiting for med school, my mom is not around anymore to see that
happen. But I – we – who knows where this career could go.

O`DONNELL: You`re going to have to get that promotion at Yale, I just
can`t help you with this, even though Donald Trump thinks he can.

So, I – and by the way, I love that he`s speaking to an audience in New
Hampshire who believe that President Obama is a Muslim and he`s sure that
they all know who the – who –

SONNENFELD: You know –

O`DONNELL: Jeffrey Sonnenfeld is –

SONNENFELD: That`s the last block, and we don`t need to get into that.
And I`m not here to defend any of the misogyny, the belief and (INAUDIBLE)
or any of the things that may come out randomly on the campaign trail.

But you do know that, still, even now, 45 years after Neil Armstrong landed
on the moon with Buzz Aldrin, we still have 6 percent of this country
without even Donald telling us this, don`t believe we ever landed.

You know, there are a lot of strange things – that is like 27 million
people do not believe where we are really – so there are weird
conspiratorial thinkers out there that cannot blame it all on this man.
And, I do not know that he is prepared to know – you know from your whole
career, Lawrence, you know how to always deal with that drunk in the back
of the room. You would think he does.

John McCain does know that. And, some of these other people in the stage
last night, regardless of their ideologies, they are trained to know how to
handle responsibly the crowd. I do not think that is something that has
been in his background before. He is not used to. He is used to large
forums and not the open mic Q&A. It is not his normal format.

PROGRAM: Well, he is the most experienced stage performer who has run for
president in the television age. So, I think –

SONNENFELD: It is all scripted, though.

O`DONNELL: But, let us get to Carly Fiorina, because he is right. You did
write one of the definitive analyses of her business career recently,
specifically in relation to her presidential campaign.

And, I want to show an ad in her last and only political campaign she was
in running for senate in California. I want to show this ad to show how
her business career was used against her by Barbara boxer. And, this led
to her decisive defeat. Let us watch this.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE ANNOUNCER: As the CEP of HP, Carly Fiorina, laid off
30,000 workers.

massive layoffs, which we did perhaps the work needs to be done somewhere

UNIDENTIFIED MALE ANNOUNCER: Fiorina shipped jobs to China. And, while
California has lost their jobs, Fiorina tripled her salary. She bought a
$1 million yacht and five corporate jets.

FIORINA: I am proud of what I did at HP.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE ANNOUNCER: Carly Fiorina outsourcing jobs out for

I approved this message.


O`DONNELL: Professor Sonnenfeld, score that ad for us on accuracy.

SONNENFELD: It is 100 percent accurate. I only score it for being too
mild. It should be a lot harsher. Carly Fiorina, she is not one of the
rogue CEOs, a dozen years ago that was plundering shareholder wealth and
some of whom actually wound up in jail. No. She – you know, she is a
hardworking, very smart as we saw last night, very articulate person.

Maybe she would be a good person, a great press aide for some reasonable
candidate, but she should not be coming from this incredibly disastrous
career in the business world without any exoneration, contrition,
redemption and then suddenly to be the leader of the free world. There
seems to be like there should be some steps in between to prove yourself.

It is telling that ten years after she was fired, she has never gotten a
job offer anywhere to be a chief executive of any company. If the board
was wrong, if the shareholders were wrong and most of shareholders were
initially against that, it will faded compact deals.

The employees were wrong, analysts were wrong, OK, ten years later nobody
has offered her a job. It was a very misguided career. Dispositionally,
though, she is unsuited. She does not listen to constructive feedback or
anything. She equates dissent with disloyalty.

Maybe she should be running for office in Russia or China. But, she is not
open to the idea of a leader has to learn, from maybe you get things wrong.
But, it was always like the Queen of Hearts, “Off with your heads.”
Platoons of lieutenants dismissed for challenging her. Nothing that she
ever did that she admit was wrong.

What she did, she sliced shareholder wealth in half. The company`s worth
half of what it was, five years after she was there. And, she was rewarded
with $100 million for being there. Now, she deals with political reporters
most of the time, Lawrence and not business reporters.

So, when she talks about how she stapled together some worthless pieces of
castoff companies, compact digital equipment things and doubled the size of
the company. Who cares? Triple it, quadruple it. She made people poorer
for what she was doing, and she made herself richer. That is the story.

And, she said, “Oh, the whole industry was off then. The S&P 500 were only
down 7 percent those five years.” She said, “Well, tech industry was off,
and she is selectively give you Intel or Cisco.”

Well, Apple was soaring there. They are up threefold at that time. Dell
would have more than double. – Google had already gone public during those
five years. Facebook kicked off. I mean there was plenty going on in
technology that was good stuff in this country, but not things that she was

O`DONNELL: OK. Quickly before we go. One other conspiracy Fiorina note -
- or Carly Fiorina says Jeffrey Sonnenfeld is a Clintonite. What is your
relationship to Bill and Hillary Clinton? When was the last time you were
hanging out with them?

SONNENFELD: As you know, I think Paul Begala and James Carville, the
Stephanopoulos, we rather surprised, and I do not know where to send my
invites. I have never – sadly never been invited to be part of the team
of advisers there.

I have worked in recent weeks for no compensation four different republican
candidates, given them some ideas about how to make whatever their
respective messages are a little bit better just so we have a constructive
discourse taking place in this silly season.

But, I call the candidates, I vote for how they are. This is why she was a
terrible CEO. When she gets these questions, what does she do, Lawrence?
She does what happens so often when somebody is an honest messenger, she
shoots the messenger.

Why does not she address the issues? She says, “My data is wrong. Bring
that up.” But, instead, it is always an effort to discredit somebody, who
is bringing up something that she does not want heard. And, that is what
makes her a bad CEO and that is why she has never gone through this
redemption. You know, she was on the board of national – of the Taiwan
semiconductor and she only showed up for 17 percent of the meetings.

O`DONNELL: All right, we are going to have to leave it there tonight with
Jeffrey Sonnenfeld, soon to be the head of the Yale School of Business if
Donald Trump has his way.

SONNENFELD: I do not say that.

O`DONNELL: But he is currently the senior associate dean for leadership
studies at Yale School of Management. Thank you very much, Jeffrey.

SONNENFELD: Thank you.

O`DONNELL: Thank you. Coming up. Hillary Clinton takes on Donald Trump
and Bernie Sanders with a little bit of help from Jimmy Fallon.



JIMMY FALLON, AS DONALD TRUMP: Next question, immigration. Wall or giant


America was built by people who came here. They worked their hearts out
for a better life. And, you are trying to stop them.

I mean, do you have any idea what it is like to work so hard for something,
to be so close to getting it then someone pops out of nowhere and tries to
take it all away?

FALLON, AS DONALD TRUMP: Are you talking about Bernie Sanders?


FALLON, AS DONALD TRUMP: Look, I hate to say this, but I think he is
losing his hair.


O`DONNELL: Joined now by Austan Goolsbee, a former Chair of the Council of
Economic Advisers for President Obama and current professor of economics at
the University of Chicago. Also with us, Eugene Robinson and Stuart
Stevens. Hillary Clinton obviously trying to loosen up and Jimmy Fallon is
a perfectly good first stop location to try to do that.

thought. She seemed to be having a good time. And, it was good to see her
having a good time. It was unfortunate that it seemed to be leaked to the
press that the plan was to be spontaneous. But, boy, once you got to kind
of passed that, I thought, appearances like this not in the normal
political setting seem like a good idea at this point in the silly season.

O`DONNELL: And, also Gene, in any campaign, there always somebody,
everyday, saying, “Hey, should not we be doing these other kinds of things
and showing him looking like a real dad?” That kind of talks in every
campaign all the time.

you have to do it – It is that she is going to have fun and everything.
Obama is a hard act to follow in this – he had really, really good comedic

He has shown it year after year at the correspondence dinner and the great
iron and other places and on the talk shows. He is just really good at it.
He set the bar pretty high for presidential candidates, I think.

O`DONNELL: And, Stuart, also on the republican side with Trump, with Carly
Fiorina, there is this sensation of these are unprotected candidates. And,
Fiorina goes boldly in certain directions that really excites republican
audiences. And, so when you are on that same playing field, it seems like
you got to come up with something.

STUART STEVENS, AUTHOR OF “LAST SEASON”: Well, look, I think these kind of
late night shows are something that campaigns now feel like they have to
do. They are mandatory. They are like they have to do it with triple
axel. I do not think it really matters. In the – Hillary Clinton is not
win or lose, whether or not she is fantastic.

O`DONNELL: Do they do these shows for the press? Is that who they are
doing them for? So that the observers out there and columnists will say,
“Oh, well, you know, she showed something.”

STEVENS: Well, I think part of it is most candidates enjoy these shows.

O`DONNELL: Yes. There is that.

STEVENS: And running for president is so grueling and in many way, so
boring and so predictable. And, has that one day the same as the next, a
ground hog quality. To do something like this, if Hillary Clinton looks
like he is having fun, she probably is having fun. I mean, you know, it is
a lot better than like, you know, one more factory tour.

O`DONNELL: And, Austan –

GOOLSBEE: You know, the other thing about these shows –

O`DONNELL: Go ahead.

GOOLSBEE: – is that, at this point, though in our world, people are
paying close attention to the republican debates to what is happening in
democratic primary. Most people are not paying any attention, even in Iowa
and New Hampshire. They are only starting to pay attention.

And, so at this point, Hillary Clinton has found out, she has rolled out
major policies and they got, you know, maybe an hour of attention by the
press and by the next day, they were on to the next thing.

So, at this point in the campaign, it probably makes sense to go out to
people who are not watching political shows and try to just get some
attention and get them looking at you.

O`DONNELL: Austan, what about the challenge that Hillary Clinton has in
this campaign season where she represents basically the Democratic Party
establishment view of economic policy including especially this time around
trade policy. And, there is Bernie Sanders out there completely opposed to
the transpacific partnership. Hillary Clinton is linked to that
inextricably. That is a difficult spot at this point in the primary

GOOLSBEE: It might – that maybe a fair point. I do not actually think
the transpacific partnership has gotten that much attention by the general
public. I think Bernie Sanders message is kind of generally anti-
establishment, but is mostly focused on income inequality and issues like

And, on the republican side, there are a bunch of other populist kind of
issues that Donald Trump is promoting on immigration and others. So, I do
not think that it is really that uncomfortable on any specific policy issue
because there has not really been that much policy.

O`DONNELL: Gene, Hillary Clinton is the most careful candidate out there.


O`DONNELL: And, there is the good of that and then there is the bad of
that in this craving of spontaneity that people want in these campaigns.

ROBINSON: Right. You know –

O`DONNELL: I mean, you want a careful president.

ROBINSON: Stuart can correct me, but what I am going to say is that a
candidate has to be himself or herself. And, trying to be something else
for Hillary Clinton, trying to be not careful is probably a mistake.


ROBINSON: She is who she is and she has to be who she is.


ROBINSON: Is that right or wrong?

STEVENS: Well, I think the – do you have people around you who are
reminding you of your deeply held believes. I think that really goes to
this core question.


STEVENS: Bernie Sanders, you may hate the guy. You know what he stands
for, you know.

O`DONNELL: Yes. He does not need anyone to remind him.

STEVENS: And, he have been saying the same thing for 40 years.


STEVENS: I thought that the worst moment that Hillary Clinton had was on
keystone. And, then we have debated keystone pipeline in this country.
The people who could not read and write can now write essays on it. And
not to be able to take a position on that. I think just was sort of a
moment that sort of paralyzed that campaign and showed how it was

O`DONNELL: But, that the prize of being so careful. That is one of those
things about it. Austan Goolsbee, Eugene Robinson, thanks for joining us.
Stuart, stick around, we are going to talk about.

I am going to hold this up again this book right here. Let us get that
book back on T.V. Also, another book coming up here. The man who wrote
the book on Donald Trump will join us. The author of that new book will
be here.



O`DONNELL: Stuart Stevens` new book is “The Last Season: A Father, A Son
and A Lifetime of College Football.” Walter Isaacson says this about the
book, “Through the lens of college football, Stuart Stevens has produced a
poignant tale of father, sons, race and growing up in the South during the
late 1960s. Besides being a delightful read, it is a reminder of the joy
of relishing what is meaningful in life.”

Stuart, like me, you are a real writer before you became a political hack.
And, when the Romney campaign ended the way it did, you were kind of
wondering what should I be doing now and you went back to what you have
always done. Writing of this kind.

STEVENS: Yes, it was losing – I think – it is prompt to think a lot more
about your life. And, certainly, if Romney had won, I would not have gone
into the government. But, it was a chance to stop and think. And, my
father was turning 95.

And, so,we took that following fall and we went to all of the all of the
Ole Miss football games together. And, that is sort of the spine of this
book. It was a wonderful chance to reflect and to write about growing up.

O`DONNELL: And enlighten this up, and tell us about your mother`s Barack
Obama bumper sticker.

STEVENS: My mother – yes, you know, I think she probably would have
testified against me in a war crimes trial. She very much was a great on
Barack Obama. But, she said she always likes who I work for. And, she
liked Mitt Romney and they met on a couple occasions. And, you know, he
find her charming and she found him charming. But, she is very graciously,
when we were meeting mitt offered to take her bumper sticker off.


O`DONNELL: Did she take the bumper sticker off?

STEVENS: No, I told her it was not necessary.

O`DONNELL: OK. Good. That is the Stuart Stevens – I knew you would tell
her she did not have to do that. Stuart Stevens, thank you very much for
joining us tonight.

STEVENS: Thanks.

O`DONNELL: The book is “The Last Season.” Another book, next. The latest
biography of Donald Trump. This is the one that told you that Donald Trump
feels like he was in the military because he went to a military-themed high
school. That is this book next. That is next.




TRUMP: When CNN did its poll recently, they had a couple of different
categories. One, was leadership. In leadership I win like, forget. Not
even a contest. So much higher than everybody else like two or three.

I do not know. They had all these cameras going. They can tell you. But
leadership, way through. The other one is a little thing called the
economy and jobs. Nobody – nobody close. The only thing they did not
love was my personality. Can you believe it?



O`DONNELL: That was Donald Trump tonight in New Hampshire. His
personality, personal history and business history were the subjects of the
new book “Never Enough: Donald Trump and The Pursuit of the Success” by
Michael Dantonio.

Michael Dantonio joins us now. This is the book where we learned recently
that Donald Trump believes or feels he is essentially a military veteran
because he went to a high school, where they had to wear uniforms.

MICHAEL DANTONIO, AUTHOR OF “NEVER ENOUGH”: Well, right among many other
things. He takes his personal experience and expands it to fit his needs
at any given time. So, if we are going to discuss the military, he is
going to say he is a military man because he – as he said, dealt with the

O`DONNELL: And, we saw this episode in New Hampshire tonight, where
someone stands up and says to him, “The president is a Muslim” and, of
course, Trump appears to agree with him.

And, Trump has not issued any statements saying, I disagree with him. You
chronicle exactly how Trump went through that whole birther period
including you have in the book, this moment in the O`Reilly Factor with
Trump in 2011. Let us look at this.


TRUMP: He may have one, but there is something on that person, maybe
religion, maybe it says he is a Muslim, I do not know. Maybe he does not
want that – or he may not have one. But, I will tell you this, if he was
not born in this country, it is one of the great scams.

But, I do not think that is the case.

TRUMP: Well, I mean, you know – but I am starting to think –

O`REILLY: I do think you believe that, either.

TRUMP: Two weeks ago –

O`REILLY: I think it is –

TRUMP: Two weeks ago –

O`REILLY: You get a lot of attention raising the question, but I do not
believe you believe it.

TRUMP: Two weeks ago, I felt like probably he was born in the country.
Today, it is possibly. I am telling you it has changed.



O`DONNELL: Four years ago, maybe he is a Muslim. Tonight in New
Hampshire, someone jumps in and says he is. President Obama is a Muslim.
Donald Trump has no disagreement with that.

DANTONIO: Well, it is amazing, he stays in character.


DANTONIO: I often compare him to a magician, who will not give away his
secrets. This is a fellow who refuses to break. So, when he said this, I
am sure he was aware of the evidence that conflicted with his claim, but he
is going to pursue it anyway.

And, it is sort of like the big lie theory. You know, lots of people think
you might be X, Y and Z. I have heard over here that you might be a
Martian. You know, you might be. People say that. How am I to refute
that? It is an impossible thing.

O`DONNELL: And, the book tracks him throughout his life and what we have
been wondering about on this show is how did this person become this
person? This is the book where we discover him saying to you, because we
spent a lot of time before he banned you because you talked to one of his

DANTONIO: Yes, one person he did not like and I was done.

O`DONNELL: Yes, you are banned. But, he says in here, he tells a story,
he basically feels he was the same he was when he was in the first grade.

DANTONIO: Right, when he was 6 years old.

O`DONNELL: Which is what we have all been saying.

DANTONIO: Exactly. That is –

O`DONNELL: He behaves like a first grade.

DANTONIO: That is when his character was formed. So, you have to imagine
the kid who wants to stay up till 8:30, but he asked you to stay up till
9:30 and, when you say 8:30, he got what he wanted. It is the same
techniques over and over again. So, it is negotiation. It is pressing the
limits of everything and then backing off a little bit if he gets what he

O`DONNELL: Would you describe him as being more like his father or more
unlike his father? His father did not – had a lot of buildings, big real
estate magnet in New York. He did not plaster his name everywhere.

DANTONIO: No, he was worth $200 million though in the 1970s. And, there
are some people who speculate that if Donald had just put that money in the
market, he would be worth almost as much as he claims he is worth now.
But, he had to lose billions, make billions back just to churn in activity.

I think Fred Trump, his dad was a far more modest person. You go around
Queens, everybody loved him. And, they actually say, you could not get him
to put his name on something. Donald is the opposite.

O`DONNELL: What about his mother? Was she encouraging him in this
grandiose notion of himself.

DANTONIO: I think a little bit. He describes her as an extremely dramatic
personality. And, one of his great memories of her is watching Queen
Elizabeth`s coronation, every moment of it. She was enthralled, which for
a Scottish woman was pretty unusual.

O`DONNELL: And here we learned that he modeled his second wedding on that

DANTONIO: Right. Nothing is ever a mistake with this guy.

O`DONNELL: Michael Dantonio, thank you very much for joining us, tonight.
Chris Hayes is up next.


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