The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell, Transcript 06/29/15

Cynthia Littleton, Joy Reid, Maria Teresa Kumar, Caitlin Huey- Burns, Linda Greenhouse, Emily Bazelon, George Takei

LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, HOST, THE LAST WORD: Hey Rachel, you know what Donald
Trump is doing right now?


O`DONNELL: He is at this hour every night, he is in his pajamas retweeting
compliments about himself.


And tonight, he is watching this show where four years ago he of course
threatened to sue me. And normally, what he does when he threatens to sue
cable news hosts is not actually sue them, just obsessively and hatefully
watch their shows.


So we – so watch Twitter, watch what happens now?

MADDOW: Hi Donald!

O`DONNELL: Yes, there you go. That`s your little –


MADDOW: Thanks Lawrence –

O`DONNELL: With him, thanks Rachel –

MADDOW: Exactly.


O`DONNELL: Well, it is good news and bad news for Donald Trump. The good
news is, he is really rising in the polls, and the bad news is, today he
finally got kicked out of show-business.


ENTERTAINMENT RESORTS: I have great love for the Mexican people, and I
always have, and they like me.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And “NbcUniversal” announcing today it has broken ties
with businessman and now Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump.

TRUMP: There`s no apology because what I said is right. I mean, what I
said is a 100 percent right.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In response to comments he made about Mexican

TRUMP: When Mexico sends its people, they`re not sending their best.
We`re getting killers, we`re getting drug dealers, we`re getting rapists,
they`re bringing crime, they`re rapists.

And we`re also getting I`m sure some good people.

JON STEWART, COMEDIAN & TELEVISION HOST: You`re a bunch of drug dealers
and rapists. No disrespect.


TRUMP: I love the Mexican people, but no apology because everything I said
is a 100 percent correct. All you have to do is read the newspapers.

STEWART: America`s id is running for president.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is just the meshing of reality TV and presidential

TRUMP: I think as far as ending the relationship, I have to do that. My
view on immigration is much different than the people at “Nbc”.


O`DONNELL: After just two weeks of Donald Trump`s presidential campaign,
“Nbc” finally had enough and issued this statement today.

“Due to the recent derogatory statements by Donald Trump regarding
immigrants, “NbcUniversal” is ending its business relationship with Mr.

Here is candidate Trump`s reaction today.


TRUMP: They wanted me to do “The Apprentice”, and now with my statements
on immigration and which happen to be correct, they are going to take a
different stance, and that`s OK.

I mean, whatever they want to do is OK with me. I`ve had a lot of great
relationship with “Nbc”, I think as far as ending the relationship, I have
to do that, because my view on immigration is much different than the
people at “Nbc”.


O`DONNELL: “Nbc`s” statement today said the annual Miss USA and Miss
Universe pageants which are a part of a joint venture between “Nbc” and
Trump will no longer air on “Nbc”.

In addition as Mr. Trump has already indicated, he will not be
participating in “The Apprentice” on “Nbc” “Celebrity Apprentice” is
licensed for Mark Burnett`s United Artists Media Group and that
relationship will continue.

Msnbc is as it`s obvious, owned by “NbcUniversal”. And a new “Fox News”
national poll shows that Donald Trump is actually in the second place among
the Republican voters.

And the most recent New Hampshire poll shows him in second place in that
state along where the first elimination primary election will be held.

Joining us now, Joy Reid, an Msnbc national correspondent, Cynthia
Littleton, the Managing Editor for TV at “Variety” and Maria Teresa Kumar,
president of Voto Latino and host of “CHANGING AMERICA” on shift by Msnbc.

Cynthia, this is, first of all, a show-business story that – it turns out
that Trump actually has no ownership position whatsoever in the whole
“Celebrity Apprentice” thing, which is why if they can find somebody to
host that thing, Mark Burnett can keep it going.

And that`s an interesting reveal, that all he was on “Apprentice” was a
paid actor, nothing, but a salaried-paid actor and he`s canceled off of
that and the other shows are gone, too.

- had a profit participation –

O`DONNELL: He didn`t –


O`DONNELL: He had no profit participation, we found this out today, we
asked Burnett and “Nbc”, no profit participation whatsoever, he was just a
hired actor by Mark Burnett at the start of that show.

LITTLETON: That is an interesting reveal.

O`DONNELL: Yes, and so the cancellation of the beauty pageants, these were
low-rated Summer things where they throw it in instead of a rerun of the
black list and see what it can do and so now they`re going to live without
that at “Nbc”.

LITTLETON: Yes, that is not a big loss for “Nbc” –


LITTLETON: Canceling that show, it`s a much bigger loss for the pageant
itself. Inside those three days, they lost “Nbc”, their English language
outlet and a few days earlier they lost to “Univision”, their Spanish
language outlet.

So, they – it`s – they must be scrambling right now.

O`DONNELL: And of course, Joy Reid, Donald Trump threaten suing – which
is what he does –


O`DONNELL: If any time you don`t actually compliment him.

REID: Yes.

O`DONNELL: It`s like anything short of that – let me show you my four-
year-old threat from Donald Trump. Of course, he issued his lawsuit threat
to me via Twitter.

I think we have it. It said, “I heard his show is unwatchable, that
Lawrence has made many false statements last night about me. Maybe I
should sue me.”

All right, he`s still thinking about that –

REID: Yes –

O`DONNELL: Joy Reid, because what he does is, he threatens to sue every
day, several times a day, and you know, once a year or so, he sues

REID: Yes, and that he also says – well, actually, I dumped them. So,
those –


REID: Let the two-part –


REID: Donald Trump dances – no, they didn`t dump me, I dumped them, and
by the way, I`m going to sue them for not dumping me because I dumped them.

I think the other sort of hilarious thing that we`ve seen here is, Donald
Trump, presidential candidate, if he was going to also be Donald Trump
actor on “The Apprentice”, who is going to have to choose, right?

You can`t be both a presidential candidate and an employee of
“NbcUniversal” as you pointed out the last time you run, and this time too,
so he was always going to have to choose.

And was eventually going to have to put that disclosure out that would
reveal that he was a salaried employee of “The Apprentice”, that would have
feel that maybe he`s not a full billionaire or whatever amount of ungodly
sums of wealth he claims to have.

He was just very interesting that I think what we have discovered is that
Donald Trump is very good at playing Donald Trump, this character he
created, how –


O`DONNELL: You know, if you want to, you can address Donald directly
because he –

REID: Oh, that`s right –

O`DONNELL: He is in the pajamas –

REID: Yes –

O`DONNELL: Watching right now, all right –


Maria Teresa Kumar –


O`DONNELL: I want to get to the serious side of this, and let`s begin it
by replaying what started this controversy in his campaign announcement.
Let`s listen to this two weeks –

KUMAR: Horrible, yes –



TRUMP: When Mexico sends its people, they`re not sending their best,
they`re not sending you, they`re not sending you. They`re sending people
that have lots of problems, and they`re bringing those problems with us.

They`re bringing drugs, they`re bringing crime, they`re rapists, and some I
assume are good people.


O`DONNELL: Now, Maria, let`s listen to what Trump said today about why
there was no reason to apologize for that.


TRUMP: And no, there`s no apology because what I said is right. I mean,
what I said is a 100 percent right. There is tremendous distress on the

As I told you, many people have done business with me from Mexico, and I
love the Mexican people, but no apology because everything I said is a 100
percent correct.


O`DONNELL: Maria Teresa, did you see this coming as the social media wave
started to develop against Trump last week?

KUMAR: Not only that I – see it coming, I think if we`ve – we`re finally
recognizing and we`re reckoning with the Latino community.

My big applause tonight is to all those individuals that wrote to
“NbcUniversal”, signed the petition.

Basically, the organizations that came forth in saying not on our watch.
And unfortunately for Donald Trump, not only are we seeing the force of the
Latino community coming together and those of our allies, but all of a
sudden, he has overnight, 54 million people that just don`t like him.

And I heard of this conversation with some folks today from the community,
they say, we heard those words and our hearts felt heavy because we come to
this country to produce, to make sure that our families have a – have a
good life, that they`re safe.

And at the end of the day, we just want to be able to give a shot to work.
And so it`s the antithesis of what he claims that he is trying to do with
“The Apprentice”, what he actually was carrying out.

And let`s not forget, Lawrence, those words that he said, those words about
Mexicans being rapists, they`re not that different than what we saw the
Charleston shooter say before he opened fire in that church.

And it`s that hate rhetoric that it`s so important that we put a stop to.
So, I applaud the American people, I applaud “NbcUniversal” and “Univision”
for doing the right thing and saying enough is enough, there is no room for

O`DONNELL: And Joy Reid, it is interesting that four years ago, Donald
Trump was saying truly vicious things that did not get him fired. And –

REID: Yes –

O`DONNELL: Including this really intensely personal attack on Barack Obama
the student.

REID: Yes –

O`DONNELL: I want to see his transcripts and saying, you know, how did
this bad student – Trump just decided he was a bad student.

How did he get into Columbia? How did he get into Harvard Law School? And
in that attack, that was very clearly an attack on the academic performance
of every black college admission in the United States, every black law
school student, how did they get there?

And clearly, what he was saying is, they all get there through this
affirmative action thing, and none of them deserve to be there.

REID: Yes, absolutely. I think for the African-American community, yes,
there`s a lot of shot avoiding(ph), you know, everybody`s sort of glad to
see him go. But there is also this one little part of me that is saying,
you know what?

It`s about time, because this is a guy who going all the way back to the
Central Park five was saying they should be executed.

This is somebody who when he did have an African-American win “The
Apprentice”, couldn`t be bothered to just give it to him on his own.

He had to share it with someone else because he wasn`t good enough to be
“The Apprentice” on his own. And who we – when we then get a first
African-American president, Donald Trump questions his birth, demands to
see his birth certificate.

Says he`ll give money to charity if Barack Obama will release his
transcripts. Disrespects the President of the United States in a way that
a public figure outside of Ted Nugent doesn`t typically do.

Does so in extremely racialized fashion. And he`s been playing this game
for decades and getting away with it.

I am very glad to see the company we both work for walk away from him, and
all I can say is, it is about time.

O`DONNELL: All right, and you know, Cynthia, there`s this interesting
thing in the FCC, interesting thing about their rule about political

And I think Trump is an unanticipated element of this. They say “if any
licensee shall permit any person who is a legally qualified candidate for
any public office to use a broadcasting station, he shall afford equal
opportunities to all other such candidates for that office to use the
broadcasting station.”

Now they anticipated when they wrote it that the way a candidate would use
it would be to come on there and talk about himself.


O`DONNELL: Not that he would use it by owning programming or producing
programming on that network like these goofy beauty pageants.

And it is entirely possible that it could have been an FCC violation for
“Nbc” to have a presidential candidate as a producer, “user”, according to
the FCC rule of their network.

LITTLETON: It could have triggered having Trump continue to be involved on
“Nbc`s” air in any fashion could have triggered all kinds of headaches in
terms of other candidates saying, I –

O`DONNELL: I want to have my beauty –


O`DONNELL: Pageants on –

LITTLETON: This amount –


LITTLETON: Of time, that could – that could have been a lot of time. And
I think that, that combination of that headache, plus the substance of his
comments were just – in the past, “Nbc” had gotten away with it by putting
out their own statement, saying we distance ourselves from Donald Trump and
his campaign about the birth certificate.

These comments were so inflammatory that a statement from “NbcUniversal”
wasn`t going to cut it.

O`DONNELL: You know, Maria Teresa, I think one of the differences that
“Nbc” knew four years ago that he was not going to be a presidential

That on the day of their upfront announcement of their schedule, he was
going to be there as a paid actor for “The Apprentice”. And so –

KUMAR: You like saying that, don`t you, Lawrence? –


KUMAR: Going like a paid –


KUMAR: Actor –


O`DONNELL: And I know it`s an offense to members of the Screen Actors
Guild to think of him as an actor, but anyway, and this time it was real.

This is a real candidate and the network really had to deal with what this
real candidate is out there saying.

KUMAR: And they actually had this – they had to take a stand, and I think
that what Joy Reid said was absolutely true.

I also think that we`re seeing a moment among Americans that`s basically
saying we don`t want that rhetoric anymore.

We actually want to move away from the tea party candidacies and see real
serious individuals tell us how they`re going to fix America.

And this was basically a stand against that in saying we are not going to
allow Donald Trump to ruin the elections. And I think that`s actually one
of the things that the Republican Party is going to have to really figure

It`s like how much air are they going to give this guy? Because
unfortunately, he`s going to bring back the force and the specter of the
tea party that the Republicans do not want.

O`DONNELL: All right, we`re not finished with Trump, we are finished with
Trump the show-business guy though. So, Cynthia Littleton, thank you very
much for joining us tonight –


O`DONNELL: We`re going to move on to the politics in the next segment.
Coming up, the answer to the best question that Donald Trump has been asked
in this campaign.


JAKE TAPPER, JOURNALIST: What do you say to a lesbian who`s married or a
gay man who`s married who says Donald Trump, what`s traditional about being
married three times?



O`DONNELL: Stephen Colbert doesn`t have a TV show right now, but he takes
to the Internet whenever the nation needs to hear from him.


STEPHEN COLBERT, COMEDIAN: History moves fast. It`s hard to believe that
gay Americans achieved full constitutional personhood just five years after
corporations did.

Scalia summed up his disgust at the majority`s flowery language by
complaining: “the Supreme Court of the United States has descended from
disciplined legal reasoning to the mystical aphorisms of a fortune cookie.”

And he`s right. I`ve got a fortune cookie right here and let`s see what
she says, all right, “the history of marriage is one of both continuity and
change in bed.”

Gay lucky numbers, 5 to 4.


O`DONNELL: Up next, Donald Trump explains why he should be allowed to
marry at least three times and gay people should not be allowed to marry at


O`DONNELL: Here is Donald Trump`s reaction today to his standing in the
latest polls.


TRUMP: So, I`m best on terrorism, best on the economy, best on trade, best
of – like a lot of important things. The only thing I`m not so good,
though, I was like, who is a nice person? Trump is last!




O`DONNELL: A national Fox News poll of Republican voters has Donald Trump
in second place at 11 percent following Jeb Bush at 15 percent in a recent
New Hampshire poll.

Republican voters show Donald Trump in second place there at 11 percent to
Jeb Bush`s 16 percent.

Chris Christie is expected to announce his presidential campaign tomorrow,
and today Donald Trump welcomed Christie to the campaign this way.


TRUMP: A friend of mine, Chris Christie is going to announce today, and
he`s simply – because he has stuff – one of the things he said, he`s not
going to use a teleprompter.

And they made a big deal, I can say that for six months, I don`t use a
teleprompter, I would love to use a teleprompter and have one here and one
here, and I would go like this –


And everybody is going to fall asleep.


O`DONNELL: Joining the discussion now, Caitlin Huey-Burns, a political
reporter for RealClearPolitics.

Caitlin, Trump, in the polls is – it`s a very interesting thing, he`s
running second or maybe this is his ceiling. Maybe he`ll sit there at 11
or whatever that number is as the others start to go up.

you know, how much of this is a reflection of, you know, everybody knows
who he is.

I`m wondering if the voters are just trying to play a little game with us
at this point. They know who he is, they read his books, they like the
kind of the celebrity nature of it.

I`ve been to – I went to a rally in New Hampshire recently where you know,
a lot of people there just wanted to go hear him and they register in the

But I do think that`s an interesting point. I mean, is this the most we`re
going to see of him, and if it is, you know, how does he react to that?

I mean, I could imagine it would be kind of exposed to –

O`DONNELL: Well, I think he – I think he`s going to go up from here.
Maria Teresa Kumar, him going out there today and bashing “Nbc”.

And getting in a big public war over the southern border and over the
issues of him wanting to build the wall down there, there is got to be
another 10 percent of Republican primary voters who are going to love him
for that.

KUMAR: Absolutely, in this case, he is going after big, bad corporate
America that doesn`t have the interest of the American people supposedly.

And he keeps talking about this idea that individuals are coming and
invading our country. That`s precisely though the conversation that the
Republican Party does not want to have.

Lawrence, there is a reason why the majority of the Republican candidates
today did not want to be part of the Iowa straw poll, why?

Because the Iowa straw poll basically brings out the worst of the
Republican Party, the real extreme right, and all of a sudden they have
Michele Bachmann on a – you know, basically as a rival candidate for
presidency. Well, last time they lost Tim Pawlenty, that`s why they
basically ditched that poll.

And what he is doing is, he`s resurrecting the tea party in a fashion that
the Republican Party is trying to shy away from it saying, actually, we
need – in order to win the White House, we need not only the Latino vote,
but we need basically a new millennial vote, we need the women vote and
Trump just does not espouse any of those issues.

O`DONNELL: And Joy – so Joy, I mean, I think we`re going to see a bump
for Trump because of what “Nbc” did today. He gets –

REID: Yes –

O`DONNELL: To say, look at me, they`re coming after me, and there`s got to
be more Republican voters out there who want to encourage him for what he`s
saying about the southern border and the people coming across.

REID: Yes, I mean, I think it`s true as to what Maria Teresa Kumar just
said about what the Republican Party needs to do and what a strategy they
need to do.

Unfortunately for the party, there really is a bumper crop of base voters
for whom this idea of the United States being invaded by “illegals”.

Is there a prime directive for voting? It`s one of the things that
motivates them the most. And I think that Donald Trump digging in on his
stance that what he said about people from Mexico who come to this country
is absolutely true and “Nbc” is weak, that is going to buy them some
currency with the Republican base.

He is doing a performance that`s similar to what Ted Cruz does, when he
says I`m going to stand up for you even if your opinion seem unpopular to
the mainstream media, I am your guy –


REID: And Herman Cain did this last time, saying he is going to build an
alligator moat –


REID: And people loved him.

O`DONNELL: All right, now, to the best question asked of Donald Trump
since he`s become a candidate, the award goes to Jake Tapper, I don`t know
if anyone`s going to beat him for the rest of the season.

Let`s look at this question and answer.


TAPPER: What do you say to a lesbian who`s married or a gay man who`s
married who says Donald Trump, what`s traditional about being married three

TRUMP: Well, they have a very good point. But you know, I`ve been a very
hard-working person, I`ve had – actually I have a great marriage, I have a
great wife now, and I – though the – my two wives were very good.

And I don`t blame them, but I was – I was working, maybe like you, 22
hours a day –

TAPPER: I`m not asking you to explain your divorces –

TRUMP: No, I know –


TRUMP: No, I`m just saying, it was – I blame myself because my business
was so powerful for me. I don`t know if that`s a good thing or a bad

TAPPER: Well, what do you say to a lesbian or a gay man who are married
and say –

TRUMP: I really don`t say anything, I mean –


TRUMP: I`m just, I am just, Jake, I`m just for traditional marriage.


O`DONNELL: Caitlin, I don`t think that`s the last time he`s going to hear
that question. I think on a Republican –


O`DONNELL: Debate stage, something like that is going to come up.

HUEY-BURNS: Well, we saw it come up with Newt Gingrich in the last
campaign. And he didn`t really answer the question anyway, so, kind of
leading – you know, opening up of room for that.

But on this, on immigration, on a variety of different issues, Trump is
going to be asked about these issues that – Republicans that are serious
about running for president don`t want to get tangled up in.

I`m really interested to see, kind of how the other Republican candidates
handle him on stage. I know, it`s kind of a low bar, but if they can, you
know, distance themselves from him in a way that shows their agility
somehow, you know, maybe they can –

KUMAR: Yes –

HUEY-BURNS: Get some points for that. But it`s going to be hard when he
loves taking up all that oxygen.

O`DONNELL: Let`s listen to another thing he said yesterday to Jake Tapper
about Hillary Clinton.


TAPPER: Are you worried at all that somebody who has given money to
Hillary, she was at your wedding –

TRUMP: No, I give money to everybody.

TAPPER: But that Republican voters in Iowa and New Hampshire, South
Carolina might be –


TAPPER: Concerned about that.

TRUMP: No, in fact, a lot of people like it. You know, we have gridlock
in Washington. And for instance, I`ve helped Nancy Pelosi, I have helped
Reid – I have – I`m a business –

TAPPER: Right, you gave money to –

TRUMP: Hey –

TAPPER: Reid and –

TRUMP: Jake –

TAPPER: Pelosi to help recapture Congress –

TRUMP: Jake –

TAPPER: In 2006 –

TRUMP: I`m a – I`m a business. You know, I was in business – I built a
great company, they always treated me nicely. We need that in Washington.
We have total gridlock.


O`DONNELL: Maria Teresa, if any Republican bothers to run an attack ad on
Donald Trump, it`s all right there. I give –

KUMAR: Right –

O`DONNELL: Money to everybody, I`ve helped Nancy Pelosi, I`ve helped –

KUMAR: I`m a business –

O`DONNELL: Harry Reid –

KUMAR: You know –


O`DONNELL: And I do it just for business because I don`t –

KUMAR: Right –

O`DONNELL: Care about politics.

KUMAR: Right, well, and that`s – and that`s actually where he`s going to
get into trouble because that`s going to run the fundamental right the
wrong way, right?

You`re supposed to be there because you actually believe that you shouldn`t
have this type of corruption transaction that`s happening right now in

And he basically admitted that he`s part of that, that he is part of that
transaction, that he`ll give money to anybody that agrees with him when it
comes to his business.

And at the end of the day I think that the American people, both on the
left and the right are tired of feeling that they`re beholden to business
interests and he just admitted that that`s exactly what he will do in

O`DONNELL: We have a picture of Hillary Clinton at Trump`s most recent
wedding which the picture I found on Twitter today – there it is.

And Joy Reid, she`s the only presidential candidate of either parties who
was at, I believe any of Donald Trump`s three weddings so far.


REID: Yes, and you know what? And the thing – the other issue, the more
serious issue is, there is a part of the Republican base that is really

And one of the things they`re most angry at their own party for is sort of
playing them. Right, saying they`re for traditional marriage but not
really doing anything about it, saying they`re going to end abortion and
not doing it.

And Donald Trump just looks like he`s making fools of them. Because he`s
sort of pretending to be their champion, but when it comes down to him
living their values, clearly he does not – and he gives to Nancy Pelosi,

I think that he`s going to have issues – Huckabee though, Mike –


REID: Huckabee might really enjoy the debate –


REID: On any level –


O`DONNELL: Caitlin, 100 percent of his attacks, of Trump`s attacks on
Republican candidates are aimed at one candidate, Jeb Bush.

REID: Yes –

O`DONNELL: The one candidate ahead of him in the polls. At what point
does the Bush PAC doesn`t have to be – the blood doesn`t have to be on –


O`DONNELL: Jeb`s hands? Start doing ads in New Hampshire using Trump`s
words against Trump.

HUEY-BURNS: Right, I mean, that will be a really telling moment to see
whether he is actually gaining momentum and whether Bush is actually
worried about it.

I mean Bush has been starting – you know, he`s been laughing about it
recently and kind of brushing him off.

But if you can imagine on the debate stage, if Donald Trump is saying –
you know, if he`s going after Jeb Bush already, you know he is going to go
after him on immigration and try to get him tied up on that and try to, you
know, cut his feet, you know, from under him on that.

So, that will be something for him to watch.

O`DONNELL: Caitlin Huey-Burns, Joy Reid and Maria Teresa Kumar, thank you
all for joining us tonight, thank you.

KUMAR: Thank you, Lawrence –

O`DONNELL: Coming up, is Justice Antonin Scalia now the Donald Trump of
the Supreme Court?

And actress Tyne Daly gave an unexpected and very personal speech on
Broadway about Friday`s Supreme Court decision on marriage equality.


O`DONNELL: Here is Stephen Colbert on the Supreme Court as court jester.


STEPHEN COLBERT, LATE NIGHT SHOW HOST: Justice Scalia was a little more
nuisance than his criticism, writing that if he ever joined an opinion that
began the way Justice Kennedy`s majority decision did, quote, “I would hide
my head in a bag.” I could have sworn he was already hiding his head in a
flesh-toned cinch sack. Please come on my show, sir.


O`DONNELL: With Justice Scalia sounding more like the Donald Trump of the
Supreme Court every day, today the Supreme Court ended its turn and issued
a 5-4 decision ruling that drugs with unpredictable effects can be used in
death penalty cases. And, that those drugs do not violate the 8th
amendment provision on cruel and unusual punishment.

Slate`s Dahlia Lithwick, who is in the courtroom today writes this about
Justice Scalia`s oral statement. “Since no written summary of his
statement was provided, you will need to take my word for it, that what he
read deviated from his written concurrence in some really odd ways. And
while I do not want to spend too much more time on Scalia acting oddly,
this was very odd.

He opened his statement, which seemed not to have been written down, and
did not really track his written opinion with: `Last Friday five justices
of this court took the issue` of same-sex marriage away from the voters
based on their `policy preferences` and then noted that today, two justices
sought to do that again, with the call to abolish the death penalty. In
case you were wondering, he has not over Obergefell. ”

Joining us now Linda Greenhouse, Journalist in Residence at Yale Law School
and former “New York Times” Supreme Court Reporter, and Emily Bazelon,
Senior Writer Scholar in Law at Yale Law School and a staff writer at the
“New York Times” Magazine.

Emily, from where I sit, judicial scholarship aside, Scalia is proving
himself to be a terrible writer. I mean these are just terrible bits that
he is sticking into these opinions and terrible thinker – and they are
combined, you know, in that wacky reference he made the other day to, you
know, just ask, you know, the next hippie you run into, as if that can
explain American society today. What is going on with this guy?

agree that Scalia has gone over the top in these end of term opinions. I
am going to stick up for him as a writer, however. He uses rhetorical
access in flourish in an effect.

O`DONNELL: Badly, though. I mean this is where it just going to have a
stylish disagreement. Yes, he does that, and I think all of his choices in
that territory, lately, are bad.

BAZELON: He gets his point across, though, and he gets quoted. He gets
attention, which is clearly one of the things that he is after, and also
aside from the rhetorical access, he does make his point clear along the
way. He knows how to build an argument.

O`DONNELL: Linda Greenhouse, what is your reaction to what has become of
Justice Scalia in the last few days?

YORK TIMES” SUPREME COURT REPORTE: So my reaction, Lawrence, is that, you
know, beyond the court jester`s stuff and the rhetoric stuff, here is a man
who is approaching 80 years old. He has been on the Supreme Court for a
long time, and he has failed.

His project has failed. He has failed to persuade his fellow justices to
adopt his view of constitutional interpretation, so-called originalism. I
mean look at the marriage decision that has nothing to do with originalism.
He has failed to persuade his fellow justices to accept his view of
interpreting statutes, look at the health care decision from last week
which he dissented that rejected his view of statutes.

And, you know, if you are really going to list the accomplishments of
Justice Antonin Scalia, they are very few and far between. Beyond the
second amendment, I actually cannot think of any. So, you know, he is
angry, and I understand that; but I do not think he is doing himself, his
legacy or the Supreme Court any good with this nonsensical talk.

O`DONNELL: Yes, I mean Emily if you compare any 800 words of Scalia lately
to any Op-Ed piece by George Will. I mean Will is an elegant writer. You
can disagree as much as you want, but he is an elegant writer. The word
choice is careful.

He is deliberated on it. It is rare that you get a hunk of George Will
that you say, “Boy, that really sounds silly.” I mean it is not that hard
with a Supreme Court Justice with clerks working for him to come out with
opinions that read well.

BAZELON: Well, Linda, as always, is right about the way in which I think
Scalia is doing a disservice to his own legacy and perhaps to the court.
And, I think she is also right that he is revealing a deep frustration
about the turn that this term has taken, other major decisions and the
whole motive interpreting the constitution that he has supported has really
gone by the wayside.

O`DONNELL: Well, look at, Linda, by contrast, Justice Breyer`s frustration
with the death penalty, which he has finally turned against after years of
playing with it as Supreme Court Justices do over time. And, his very
passionate and heartfelt and frustrated dissent about that was very well
written and very logically presented.

GREENHOUSE: Yes, he has got – he whips the four aspects of the death
penalty that he thinks justify a serious examination. And, just to be
clear, you know, he and Justice Ginsburg in that opinion did not actually
come out and say they are against the death penalty.

What they said was there were enough questions about it. We have had 40
years of having reinstated the death penalty in 1976, and it is time that
we step back and take a good look at whether it is constitutional. It was
a very thoughtful, long-in-the-making, very well-argued dissenting opinion
that the two of them submitted today.

O`DONNELL: Emily, run us through the other things that the Supreme Court
cleaned up today, their final cases.

BAZELON: The case that in my view was the sleeper of the year came out
today. It is about Arizona`s attempt – the voters` attempt in Arizona to
provide independent commissions to draw the lines for elections, for
congressional elections. This is usually done by politicians, the source
of a lot of partisan gerrymandering.

The question was whether the voters in Alabama, opposes the legislature had
the power to make this change. The court ruled 5-4 the liberals plus
Justice Kennedy in the majority, that they did have this power. There was
the death penalty decision you referred to earlier, very bitterly divided,

And, then we also had a case about the power of the EPA to regulate
mercury, which did not go in favor of the Obama Administration. And
finally, an order that temporarily will keep open several abortion clinics
in Texas that were slated to close because of a new law in Texas, which has
not been resolved finally in terms of its legality, but at least for now
there will be about 15 or 16 clinics remaining open in Texas.

O`DONNELL: And, Linda on the Texas case, any hint in that stay that they
ordered today about where the final opinion will go?

GREENHOUSE: Well, yes – there is. And, I think it is good news for those
of us who are very concerned about the course of what is happening to the
right to abortion in the hands of republican politicians.

The criteria that the court imposes for granting a stay, there has to be
the threat of an irreparable injury to the person seeking the stay and
these clinics were about to – will have to close. There has to be a
likely hood that the court is actually going to agree to hear the case,
which takes a vote of four justices. It takes five to grant a stay, and
there were five today.

And, there has to be a likelihood that the court would find that what
happened in the lower court was incorrect. So, I think this is really very
substantial, interesting and good news for people who believe that the
right to abortion ought to be actually available.

O`DONNELL: Linda Greenhouse and Emily Bazelon, thank you. And, before you
go, I just want to say that Antonin Scalia is very lucky that in the
tradition of Supreme Court observers and reporters you all tend to be very
generous to these Supreme Court justices in your criticisms of them. Thank
you both very much for joining me tonight.

BAZELON: Thanks for having us.

O`DONNELL: Up next, Tyne Daly, one of the great, great Broadway Stars and
actress of our time gave a very, very special comment about the Supreme
Court ruling on marriage equality and its effect on her personal on her,
personally. It is coming up.


O`DONNELL: On Friday night, after a performance of the Broadway play “It
Should Have Been You”, at the request of the show`s director, David Hyde
Pierce, Actress Tyne Daly spoke about the Supreme Court`s ruling on
marriage equality. What her director did not know was that Friday`s date
June 26 was already very special to Tyne Daly for another very personal


TYNE DALY, BROADWAY STAR/ACTRESS: On the 26th of June, in 1966, I got
married. That was 49 years ago –


– To a man with black hair and he has black skin, and our marriage was
against the law in the United States of America, in 17 states. The
following year, the Supreme Court in a case wonderfully called loving
versus the state of Virginia, took down those miscegenation laws and said
that they believe that, that was a wrong thing to do.

They took down a bad law that said that people who love each other cannot
get married. And, I am so proud of my country and I am so proud of the
Supremes who have made some bad decisions from time to time, but I think
today was amazing.


O`DONNELL: You can see the full speech that Tyne Daly gave by heading to
our Facebook page at

Joining us next, George Takei will be here to talk marriage equality.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: We will no longer have gay or straight marriage
in America. There will be marriage.




UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER (1): We can move anywhere in the United
States. And, our marriage here in California will be accepted.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER (2): I knew it was going to be a lot bigger
this year because of the Supreme Court decision. Yay skoe tus.


O`DONNELL: Joining us now for a “Last Word” exclusive is actor George
Takei an LGBT activist. George, welcome back to the show. I really
appreciate you joining us tonight. And, I want to just begin by getting
your reaction to what Donald Trump said when Jake Tapper asked him, since
Donald Trump says he is opposed to marriage equality. Jake Tapper asked
him, “Well, what about you having three marriages?” Let us hear his
reaction, Donald Trump`s answer to that.


JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST OF “THE LEAD” SHOW: What do you say to a lesbian or
gay man who are married and say –

not say anything. I mean I am just – I am just – I am for traditional


O`DONNELL: George Takei, what would you like to say to Donald Trump?

GEORGE TAKEI, ACTOR/LGBT ACTIVIST: Well, as a matter of fact, I did have a
conversation with him. As you may know, I did “The Apprentice” show, and
during a press conference, I challenged him to have lunch with me so that
we can discuss marriage equality. This was, I think, two years ago.

And, I fully expected him to demur, saying “I am too busy, but he did
accept,” and we had that lunch. And, when I, again, met him, he said, “You
know what, George? I just came from a gay marriage.” He had come from a
wedding of a very important Broadway personality, Jordan Roth. He is the
head of the Jujamcyn Theaters and he is often the producer of many Broadway

And he told me, “They are good friends of mine. It was a beautiful
marriage. And they are wonderful friends.” And I said, “Well, why cannot
you marriage equality. You go to weddings of same-sex couples. And he
said, “Well, I am for traditional marriage.” And we had a long discussion
over lunch, and we finally agreed to disagree. He was for traditional

Despite the fact that he could been married three times. That is not
traditional. And I, you know, approve of his three-time marriage, because
you want to find the person that you love. But, the important thing here
is to understand that our democracy is a dynamic democracy, and our
constitution is a living document.

It is not carved in stone. And, over the years, the whole arc of our
democracy has been to adjust to the times, to expand equality to more and
more people. And, you know, when the nation was founded, women had
absolutely no rights. But, because determined women and fair-minded men
challenged and debated and marched, today we have equality for women.

And it is the same thing with marriage equality. Over the years, we have
come to understand what marriage really means, and that is love. It is
centered on love. Brad and I have been together for 28 years now. Married
seven of those years. And that is what really counts.

I think Donald Trump`s interpretation of marriage is something that he
really, himself, does not really believe in, traditional marriage, because
traditional marriage is where two people love each other, commit to each
other, care for each other over the years. It is a meaningful ceremony.
And, his interpretation of that is not recognizing what real marriage is.

O`DONNELL: All right, I want to ask you one more quick question about
Trump on this, but we got to take a break first. We are going to be right
back with George Takei.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE HOST: Marriage equality was not actually their only made
you ruling this week.



Today, in the landmark 6-3 decision, the Supreme Court voted to uphold
nationwide subsidies to help poor and middle class Americans purchase
health insurance under the Affordable Care Act.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE HOST: It is amazing. Somehow – [cheers and applause]

Somehow against all the odds, Obamacare is still alive. It is the
legislative equivalent of Keith Richards, who really could have died in so
many ways, but now I am definitely glad that he is still around.



O`DONNELL: We are back with more from George Takei. George, my impression
of Donald Trump is that he says whatever he thinks a person wants to hear
or what an audience wants to hear.

And, in this case, he is running for president as a republican, so he says
what he thinks those people want to hear, which he is opposed to same-sex
marriage. You know the guy, do you think he really means what he is
publicly saying now about marriage equality?

TAKEI: I think he is a businessman. He will go with the wind. He is
saying that because is got to win in the republican primary. And, his base
is really the far-right wing. So, he is going to say what is appropriate

But when – if he should survive this, and maybe be a vice presidential
candidate and in the general election, then he will be for – some of my
best friends are gays and lesbian is his rhetoric. And, so I think he is
capable of saying anything that will be good business, or in whatever
situation he should find himself in.

O`DONNELL: And so, when he is out of this campaign, and he is back to
trying to attract people to Trump properties and Trump hotels, that sort of
thing, he will be very welcoming to any same-sex weddings that they want to
have there?

TAKEI: Oh, he will welcome people to have gay weddings in his hotel or his
restaurants. So, you know, he is a businessman, and that is a bottom line
for him.

O`DONNELL: And, did you expect that to be more of what we are going to see
out there in the country? People increasingly welcoming to same-sex
marriages and participating in them?

TAKEI: It is already 60 percent of the general American public. But if
you take the Millennials, it is 80 percent that supports marriage equality.
And, you know, when Brad and I got married, we were barely conscious of the
fact that we were entering into an interracial marriage, which would have
been the big, big controversy 50 years ago.

But “Loving vs. Virginia” was a hotly-debated issue back then. And, now
the conversation and the commentary on our wedding was that we were two men
who loved each other. And, so in another 50 years, it is going to be as
common as interracial marriage, producing presidents of the United States.

O`DONNELL: And, we are seeing some foot dragging in Texas and some other
states about this.

TAKEI: Louisiana.


TAKEI: Mississippi.

O`DONNELL: But, it looks like that will probably work itself out in the
next 25 days or so.

TAKEI: I think so. I think so. Because those attorney generals already
in Texas and in – I am not sure whether it was – but Louisiana Attorney
General is still holding out, but it is like, you know, when segregated
education became the law of the land.


TAKEI: And, the governor of Alabama is starting the schoolhouse doorway,
and now we barely know about that.

O`DONNELL: George Takei, thank you very much for joining us tonight and
thanks for your insights into Donald Trump. I really appreciate it.


TAKEI: My pleasure. Good to talk with you, Larry.

O`DONNELL: Thank you, George. Chris Hayes is up next.


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