The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell, Transcript 06/09/15

Steve Clemons, Richard Wolffe, Caitlin Huey-Burns, Adrian Martin, Heath Harris, Eric Smenner, Scott Palmer, Lynn Sweet, Jim Warren

RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC HOST: Is ridiculous that this year, they are – that
they would never do this again for women or for men.

It is ridiculous that this year they are making the best women`s players in
the world compete on a 120-degree-130-degree rubber and plastic on top of

But because of the way they stood up for themselves and fought it, this
World Cup will be the last time that ever happens. They will never again
play on turf after this World Cup because they fought it.

The next U.S. game is against Sweden on Friday, I believe that we will win.
That does it for us tonight, we`ll see you again tomorrow, now it`s time
for THE LAST WORD with Lawrence O`Donnell, good evening Lawrence.

LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, MSNBC HOST: Good evening Rachel. As you know, the
first word that comes to mind when you think of me is cheap.


And so, I actually have artificial turf in my backyard, and thank you for
giving me yet another reason not to play soccer on it.

MADDOW: That`s right, you could also cook on it in a pinch –

O`DONNELL: Right –

MADDOW: If you`re on a hot day –

O`DONNELL: Exactly.


MADDOW: Thanks Lawrence –

O`DONNELL: Thanks Rachel.


O`DONNELL: Well, we are following breaking news tonight, the Obama
administration is sending more troops to Iraq to help in the fight against
the Islamic State, and Jeb Bush had some trouble making sense when he went
off script in Germany today.

And the only teenager arrested after that pool party in Texas will join us
tonight after the officer who attacked those kids, especially that 15-year-
old girl, that officer resigned today


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The police supervisor seen tackling a 15-year-old girl
has now resigned.

seen on the video are indefensible.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Pulled his gun out on those kids, that was very scary
and frightening.

CONLEY: He came into the call out of control.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Rolled on to the scene literally –

stomach, guys, but that`s kind of the most hilarious thing I`ve ever seen.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hastert comes out of hiding – into federal court to
answer to some very serious charges.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was once one of the most powerful politicians in
this country.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Even though Denny has been accused of doing horrific
things, it may be hard for the prosecution to make its case.

ALEX WAGNER, MSNBC: Lindsey Graham was asked today by the “Daily Mail” who
might serve as his first lady.

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: I didn`t see a sign on the White
House that said single people need not apply.

WAGNER: Graham responded, well, I`ve got a sister, she could play that
role if necessary.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are both parties giving up the center? –

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, they are, yes, they are.

HILLARY CLINTON, FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE: Republicans are systematically
trying to stop millions of American citizens from voting.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On voting rights, she sounds like me.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The way Republicans win is by driving up the white
vote. It is not by appealing to women or Hispanics or blacks.

JEB BUSH, FORMER FLORIDA GOVERNOR: Why is an American politician who might
run for president in Berlin, Germany?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: His brother George W. still unpopular in much of

WILMORE: So, I just, but I saw the first two movies and you need to stop
remaking it.



O`DONNELL: We have breaking news tonight. The “New York Times” reports,
“in a major shift of strategy in Iraq, the Obama administration is planning
to establish a new military base in Anbar province and send hundreds of
additional American military trainers to help Iraqi forces retake the city
of Ramadi and repel the Islamic State.”

“Nbc News” reports fewer than 500 military trainers are being considered
for this. Joining us now, Steve Clemons, Washington editor-at-large for
“The Atlantic” and an Msnbc contributor.

Caitlin Huey-Burns, political reporter for RealClearPolitics, Richard
Wolffe, executive editor for Steve Clemons, what`s your
reaction to this announcement tonight?

you know, we heard the President say the other day that we had a lot of
training operations and not enough recruits.

And so what you see is, this is outreach really to the Sunni region of
Iraq, a confidence-building measure with the Sunni tribes there to try and
encourage them that this is something directed towards them and aside step
from Baghdad.

So, we`ll see if it works. But right now, this adds to the training
capacity, but it`s not clear if those recruits will show up, we`ll have to
see what happens.

O`DONNELL: Richard Wolffe, what can 500 people do?

the administration itself has pointed out that it`s not really a need for
trainers in Iraq.

There are political needs, the only suppressive force that is been
effective in Iraq is Shia-led. So, that`s naturally going to alienate the
Sunni forces that they need to rally in Anbar province.

What can they really do? They can really start targeting airstrikes.
That`s what they really need, advanced ground operations that can target
these ISIS forces and help degrade operations to allow what ramshackle
Sunni forces they can actually recruit.

So, you know, this is – this is – I`m afraid, a back to Vietnam analogy
of saying –


WOLFFE: Are they really trainers or –


WOLFFE: Advisors or advanced troops? You make your pick and decide what
the verbiage is.

O`DONNELL: Yes, Caitlin, people of a certain age, when they hear the word
“advisors”, that`s the – that`s – that was the word that was used for the
first many thousands of troops that went into Vietnam.

have to – you know, the Republicans running for president have been going
after the president for not having a kind of strategy.

So, it`ll be interesting to see kind of what their response will be in the
next couple of days from lawmakers on Capitol Hill and from possible rivals
in 2016.

This is a policy that, you know, will extend beyond that.

O`DONNELL: And Steve, doesn`t this just give Lindsey Graham “and I told
you so moment”, yes, we need more troops, of course it means to be at least
ten thousand more.

CLEMONS: Of course it does. I mean, this feels and looks like a slippery
slope problem, going deeper and deeper without solving fundamental

You know, who is glaringly absent in this are the Saudis, the GCC members
who theoretically are allied with us, but in contrast to the quick action
they took in Yemen, they`re doing very little in this part of Iraq.

And it`s striking that we`re Americanizing this problem and thinking that
will solve this issue. What solves the issue is the region taking care of
it and that is not happening right now.

O`DONNELL: Now Jeb Bush followed President Obama to Europe, he was in
Germany today, he gave a prepared speech that was noncontroversial.

And then, he got into the question and answer, the unscripted portion, and
let`s listen to what he said about Russia.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How would you envision the future of the United States-
Russia relationship?

BUSH: Well, I think – I think the U.S.-Russia relationship needs to be
clear. There should be a clear understanding of – of – first of all, our
support for the Russian people.

That we need to make it clear that while Mr. Putin is a ruthless
pragmatist, he will push until someone pushes back, and I believe that`s

NATO`s responsibility is to do just that, particularly for NATO countries.
That we have an obligation and it`s to our benefit in terms of security to
do that.

But we should never do it in a way that pushes Russia away for a generation
of time. That ultimately, Russia needs to be a European nation.

And that everything we do ought to be to isolate its corrupt leadership
from its people for starters.


O`DONNELL: Steve Clemons, your reaction?

CLEMONS: Well, you know, I thought for a while that Jeb Bush may have had
more strategic depth than he has, because he is – you know, has people
like James Baker, Brent Scowcroft, Richard Haass, sort of in the Bush

I think it was one of the most inane things that a candidate could run for.
You know, the Russian people right now have – feel enormous support for
Vladimir Putin.

It`s kind of telling, you know, people in the Republic of Texas, a state in
the United States that they`re really not Texans. That they ought to be
sort of New Englanders or something.

So it was a – it was a very weird comment and a very unpresidential one
because it showed that he doesn`t understand Russia`s place in the
strategic order.

O`DONNELL: And Richard Wolffe, Vladimir Putin is a ruthless pragmatist.


O`DONNELL: That doesn`t even – that doesn`t sound too negative –


WOLFFE: Could be a compliment. That`s what –


WOLFFE: It is –

O`DONNELL: Right –

WOLFFE: When leaders sound like when they`re standing up –


WOLFFE: To ruthless –


WOLFFE: Pragmatist, they say things like that.


WOLFFE: You know, like he does sound a lot like his brother, for all those
reports that said no, you know, they were very different –

O`DONNELL: But you know what? –

WOLFFE: And knew –

O`DONNELL: I mean, does anyone have a memory of George W. Bush on foreign
policy in the 2000 campaign saying something as off base as this? I mean –


O`DONNELL: Foreign policy wasn`t a big part of that campaign.

WOLFFE: Yes, actually, I was there in 2000. And he said stuff that was
even more inane to use these –

O`DONNELL: All right –

WOLFFE: Words –

O`DONNELL: We`ll get – we`ll dig out the old clips –

WOLFFE: You know –


WOLFFE: He was particularly obsessed at the time with missile defense
systems –


WOLFFE: And found that was pretty much all that he`d mastered when it came
to the foreign policy piece of this. Look, foreign policy is tricky as Jeb
Bush has found out.

I had to say, you know, a Senator Barack Obama, one time senator –
freshman senator, went to Berlin and didn`t make these kind of –


WOLFFE: Ridiculous statements.


WOLFFE: He made it kind of look easy. And you know, to say that NATO
countries need to stand up for NATO is a statement of the blindingly

You don`t even have to go through a Condoleezza Rice briefing in-text just
to figure that one out.

O`DONNELL: But then also to say, Russia needs to be a European nation.
Does that mean Russia needs to be part of NATO? I mean, how do you –
what`s the logic? There is no logic in this thing?

HUEY-BURNS: Well, what`s so interesting about this is that, these foreign
trips have become kind of a rite of passage for these presidential
candidates to go and show or you know, suppose they beef up their

Bush made clear that he was going over there to, you know, do this Putin
bashing, which has also become something of a – of a rite of passage for
Republican candidates.

And we`ve – really didn`t see that. I mean, if that was his goal, well
known going in, I`m not sure if that was accomplished. And the challenge
for him throughout this whole trip will be to really stay disciplined.

He`s announcing his candidacy on Monday. If he makes these kind of slip-
ups or makes clear that he isn`t as well versed in this, that could be

O`DONNELL: And Steve Clemons –

CLEMONS: I mean –

O`DONNELL: We saw Chris Christie go to Europe, and once you get into the
question and answer spot, he got in trouble too, these guys are not
prepared for this.

CLEMONS: You know, I mean, I think that the whole issue with whether it`s
Chris Christie or Jeb Bush, to a certain degree, they`re trying to play
Pentagon-hugging game that there are strong military.

National security hawks without much sensibility of what`s going on both
with the concerns that Americans have of being over extended in the world.

And also, they engage in sort of tripping over things that, you know,
unnecessarily offend, you know, important powers. Russia is a problematic
country, but it`s also a country we have to deal with in all sorts of other

And I can`t imagine his father, you know, who was one of the really
interesting and great foreign policy presidents actually, saying, you know,
understanding that his son basically said, Russia should give up its
Russian, you know, stakes.

It`s a country we were, you know, at odds with for decades and that the
characteristics of Russian nationalism that`s rising today, in part, is
because of the sense of humiliation from comments that Jeb Bush just

O`DONNELL: There`s a – there`s a lot of strategy-talk going on about the
presidential campaigns.

And David Brooks today, Richard Wolffe, from the “New York Times” writing
about Hillary – what appears to be the Clinton campaign strategy of going
for the base, not trying to reach into the middle the way Bill Clinton did.

David Brooks rattling off reasons why he hates the strategy, bad for the
country, polarizing all that stuff. And his argument is, there are more
people in the middle than these political campaigns are acknowledging.

WOLFFE: Yes, I think David Brooks is on to something when he says that
political leaders if they`re really reaching for a national majority have
to speak to some higher principle, be presidential and have a grander
vision than 50 plus one.

However, if you are trying to win your nomination and you`re going through
primaries, even if the contests in those primaries are maybe fringy
candidates or minor candidates, you still have to reach out to your base.

So, the question is, can you go through those primaries and still spell out
a bigger vision? You know, for Barack Obama in 2007-2008, he actually could
play the card of saying, I was against the war in Iraq, here are my
leftist-center bonafide is, and now I`m going to rally the nation to a
bigger cause of uniting left and right.

Hillary Clinton has to prove that she is of the left, but she is also of
the center. More than that, she has to speak to this bigger vision.

Where is she going to take the country? It isn`t enough to have an
assemblage of the tiny coalition groups, she has to have a bigger appeal
that`s right, but she also has to win the primaries.

O`DONNELL: And Caitlin, last night, Chris Matthews on “Hardball” was
praising this very same Clinton strategy, saying that this is what
leadership looks like taking real positions, staking out those positions
and Chris liked where those positions were.

HUEY-BURNS: Well, I think the issue of immigration is a really interesting
one to see how she`s handled this.

I mean, she came out from the beginning staking out a claim, not only, you
know, within the – to put her position out there, but to stake a claim,
knowing that Republicans are kind of trying to figure about – their way
through this issue.

So, I think that`s an interesting example of it as well. We saw her
recently talking about voting rights, calling Republicans out by their
names for – which was I think one of the real, you know, times we`ve seen
her take those kind of aggressive, motivating the base and she needs that.

She can`t really exactly replicate that coalition that Obama built. It was
a historic campaign, but she is also going to play up the historic nature
of her own campaign.

We saw her in South Carolina recently talking about women. So, I think
that will be interesting to watch. But I agree, I think the middle is
still there, they`re still up for grabs and I think both sides are going to
be looking at that closely.

O`DONNELL: Richard Wolffe, Steve Clemons and Caitlin Huey-Burns, thank you
all for joining us tonight –

CLEMONS: Thank you –

HUEY-BURNS: Thank you –

WOLFFE: Thank you.

O`DONNELL: Coming up, the police officer who attacked that 15-year-old
girl after the pool party in Texas resigned today. We will be joined by
the one teenager who got arrested at that scene.

And “Nbc`s” Stephanie Gosk has an exclusive interview with the son of the
woman who is being questioned about possible involvement in that prison
escape in Upstate, New York.


O`DONNELL: The war on sugar continues. Tonight, the San Francisco board
of supervisors unanimously passed a law requiring health warnings on all
soda advertisements.

The law fix drinks with only 25 or more calories per 12 ounces, that`s
almost anything that`s not water or a diet drink.

The warning will read, “Warning: Drinking beverages with added sugars
contributes to obesity, diabetes and tooth decay. This is a message from
the city and county of San Francisco.”

Coming up next, the only person arrested after that McKinney, Texas, pool
party responds to the news that the officer at the center of it all has



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is pretty clear that people were resisting what the
police told them to do and they ended up getting tear-gassed or jumped on
or having guns pulled on them –

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, there`s no doubt about that –

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you obey the police, it doesn`t usually happen.


O`DONNELL: While conservative pundits were still struggling to defend the
one-man police riot that broke out after a pool party in Texas, the police
chief in Texas called what officer Eric Casebolt did indefensible while
announcing the officer`s resignation.


CONLEY: Eric Casebolt has resigned from the McKinney Police Department.
As the chief of police, I want to say to our community that the actions of
Casebolt as seen on the video of the disturbance at the community pool are

Our policies, our training, our practice do not support his actions. He
came into the call out of control, and as the video shows, was out of
control during the incident.

I had 12 officers on the scene and 11 of them performed according to their
training. They did an excellent job.


O`DONNELL: Officer Casebolt ordered other officers on the scene to make
one arrest.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And there was one person who was arrested initially,
that case is still here?

CONLEY: That case has been dropped.


O`DONNELL: So, that person who was arrested joins us now, 18-year-old
Adrian Martin and his Attorney Heath Harris. Adrian, what were you doing
at the scene?

Were you at the pool party?

ADRIAN MARTIN, RESIDENT, MCKINNEY, TEXAS: Yes, the party was on Friday and
I had an invitation to go, just like the rest of the other kids, they had
an invitation to go as well.

And we – some of us weren`t allowed to go swimming because we didn`t have
a guest pass, but they were those who did have a guest pass to enter the

O`DONNELL: Adrian, I`m going to now show the audience the video that was
taken, that shows where you were and what your involvement was. We`re
going to watch that now.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jeffrey, what the – is going on? Because I feel – I
feel –






Call my mama! Call my mama! Oh, God!





UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, Darrel(ph) –



O`DONNELL: I just want to – Adrian, we`re going to go back to the video a
little bit while we`re talking just to show, you are in the blue T-shirt
there, right, in that video?

MARTIN: Yes sir.

O`DONNELL: Yes, and so what we`re seeing is you come in to the scene,
clearly only after the officer has grabbed that 15-year-old girl. What
were you thinking at that point?

You`re right there –

MARTIN: I was thinking –

O`DONNELL: Go ahead, I was just telling the audience – and that`s you
running away. What made you first approach the situation and what made you
run away?

MARTIN: Well, what made me first approach the situation was, I thought and
believed that, that officer was man-handling that little girl –

O`DONNELL: OK, I just want to –

MARTIN: And for no reason –


O`DONNELL: We`re going to release the video, let me just – I just want to
tell the control room, we don`t need any more of this video. I just wanted
to establish where Adrian was in it – go ahead, Adrian.

MARTIN: Is – so for whatever reason, I just approached the scene because
I thought it was irrational and I thought it was wrong.

And as you – like as soon as he pulled that gun out, you know, I think
anyone is going to run when a gun is pulled out on them.

O`DONNELL: Did you touch the officer, Adrian?

MARTIN: No sir, I did not whatsoever.

O`DONNELL: Did you see anyone else touch the officer?

MARTIN: No sir.

O`DONNELL: And when you saw him pulling out the gun, was there – was
there anything about it that you could link, anything that happened that
you could say, oh, he pulled out the gun because –

MARTIN: Because as you can see in the video, me and my friend were trying
to – were trying to tell the girl we`re going to call her mother, we`re
going to call her, don`t worry about it.

But we`re also trying to let the police officer like – know – like, sir,
you`re hurting her and you`re not – you`re not taking care of the
situation pretty good.

But while we were doing that, I shift to the side and there was an incline
on the hill that you can see and my friend – where it`s kind of crowded,
so he accidentally bumps me twice which makes me slip down that incline.

And as you see me slip, it looks like I`m lunging towards the officer, but
in all reality, I really wasn`t –


MARTIN: I just got accidentally bumped –

O`DONNELL: We`re seeing that move right now, Adrian, on the video, yes.
And then what made you run away, Adrian?

MARTIN: Well, whenever I got bumped towards him, I backed up quite a bit,
maybe five yards from him, and after I backed up, he stands up and looks at
me and pulls his pistol out.

So, that`s what kind of made me run away.

O`DONNELL: So, was he – Adrian, was he looking directly at you, making
eye contact with you when he pulled out the gun?

MARTIN: Yes, he was.

O`DONNELL: OK, and so then you run away, you were chased by two other
officers and you were arrested by them?

MARTIN: I thought – I thought for a minute that I was being chased by the
same officer who pulled out the gun. And when I looked back, I realized,
oh, it was two different officers.

So, I decided to get down, comply with them and they did – they did detain
me, but when they came on top of me, I accidentally bit my tongue which in
the video, you can – it shows that I`m bleeding.

But those officers, they were acting professional, they did their job right
and I just want to thank them for helping me out and what not.

O`DONNELL: He`s OK, so, that explains – because there`s a later part of
the video after they brought you back and you were in handcuffs, where
you`re leaning over with your mouth open and I was wondering what that was

That`s because you bit your tongue and you had some blood there?

MARTIN: Yes sir.

O`DONNELL: And the other officers you say, they handled the situation
professionally, when did you find out today that officer Casebolt had

MARTIN: I found out earlier in the day, I really can`t remember what time
it was, but I did find out and it kind of got a load off my chest, I think
it was a good decision, so –

O`DONNELL: And Heath Harris, are you going to advise –


O`DONNELL: Are you going to advise Adrian to pursue any legal remedies in
this case?

HARRIS: No, we`ve gotten the remedy, we`ve gotten the remedy that we
wanted. We wanted this case dismissed because we believe the evidence on
the video clearly shows that he was not interfering.

That he was bumped into the officer`s direction. That all he did was try
to come to this poor child`s aid. You got an officer out there grounding
her face into the ground.

You know, that you got a poor child who is out there begging for her mom.
All that he was trying to do is let her know that they were going to call
the mom and try to get her to calm down.

And like all the other people out there trying to get this officer to stop
man-handling this poor child. That`s all he did.

And if you look at the video closer, again, it`s clear that he was bumped
into that area, but he immediately distanced himself from the officer.

But even after he distanced himself from the officer, the officer pulled
the weapon. Now, what we`re really thankful for, just like the police
chief said, there were several officers out there that were doing their
job, that were conducting themselves professionally.

And we`re thankful that those officers were out there, because we don`t
know what would have happened.

You know, if he took that type of aggressive nature toward the young lady,
and all she did was try to walk away, and what would he have done to this
man –


O`DONNELL: So, Mr. Harris –

HARRIS: Had those officers not being there to restrain him.

O`DONNELL: Mr. Harris –

HARRIS: Yes sir –

O`DONNELL: Quickly, so you`re not going to advise Adrian to sue for false
arrest or anything like that?

HARRIS: No, absolutely not. We were looking forward to working with the
McKinney Police Department to make sure that other kids don`t find
themselves similarly situated.

The man could have been killed, it`s a lesson that – it`s a valuable
lesson that he`s learned and what we`re going to be doing is hopefully,
like I said, try to talk to other kids to let them know that if you get
involved in a police encounter, don`t argue with the police, just comply
with their wishes and if you have a complaint, then go and file the

Because I think that this police chief have shown, just like other Texas
police chiefs have shown, that if you file a complaint and those officers
have done misconduct, they were going to hold them accountable.

And that`s the right way to handle it. And we just want to make sure that
no other kids find themselves similar situated to Mr. Martin because this
could have been yet another tragedy involving a young black male.

And we`re just thankful that those other officers were out there, conducted
themselves in a professional manner, unlike this officer Casebolt.

O`DONNELL: Adrian Martin, thank you very much for joining us tonight and
explaining what happened there, and Attorney Heath Harris, thank you for
joining us.

HARRIS: Thank you sir.

O`DONNELL: Thank you –

MARTIN: You`re welcome.

O`DONNELL: Coming up, what next for the officer who has resigned today.


O`DONNELL: When he resigned today, Officer Eric Casebolt probably knew
that he was on his way to being fired by the McKinney Chief of Police who
found Officer Casebolt`s conduct indefensible.

The chief was asked what his resignation means.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: Does this mean that his resignation, will he
be able to keep his pension, his benefits?


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Was he forced to resign or did he resign on
his own will.

CONLEY: He resigned on his own will.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: So, the Internal Affairs investigation is
now simply over?

CONLEY: Yes. He`s no longer an employee of the department.


O`DONNELL: Joining us now, Eric Smenner, a former police officer, a former
prosecutor and, now, a criminal defense attorney. And, Scott Palmer, a
criminal defense attorney both in Texas.

So, in that first question, we seem to have one reason why this officer
would have resigned. He is able to keep his pension, apparently. Eric
Smenner, are there any other legal advantages to resigning rather than
waiting for more of this process to play up.

ERIC SMENNER, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, there is the advantage of
being able to be hired again at some other place. If he`s fired, that`s
just like the kiss of death. You have to – in the process of applying
some place else, they`re going to look in your edge or record and what
you`ve done.

And if he has been fired, he just would be unable to obtain employment
anywhere else within that profession.

O`DONNELL: But, Scott Palmer, does that really make any difference in this
case. I mean, if you know nothing else about someone and all you have is
the paper, then it`s relevant whether he was fired or not.

But he`s now one of the most famous police officers in America.

think –


PALMER: – he`s going to be – no one`s going to touch him with a 10-foot
pole. He`s going to take some time to either think –


– about another country or apply somewhere far, far away from McKinney,
Texas. Maybe, somewhere far in the West Texas someone will hire him. But
I don`t think he`s going to have a future anywhere near McKinney or Dallas,
Fort Worth.

He`s just – it`s too hot. There`s too much heat. This case has received
so much press. And the video itself was so disturbing in nature, to see
him react that way.

And it is indefensible. That came out today. Of course, yesterday, it
wasn`t indefensible until he`s no longer an employee which, I think, is

I think it was a good move on his part to stop the I.A. investigation and
to sort of part ways on his own terms. They say it was his own free will
but I think he was pressured by –


– the global attention on this case, which was just immense and is still

O`DONNELL: So, yes, this stops – that was a question in the press
conference today – this immediately stops the Internal Affairs
investigation because he`s no longer a member of the police department.

And the chief was asked today, “What about further investigation of
criminal conduct.” And he said that`s ongoing. So, Eric Smenner, is there
a possibility of criminal charges, assault and battery charges, being
brought against this officer.

SMENNER: Well, I think there is definitely a possibility and I don`t think
that it`s a good idea to stop the Internal Affairs investigation because, -


– if there`s a problem with their training procedures the way that they`re
taught to treat citizens, then that needs to be addressed. So, I think,
just by him leaving the job, that shouldn`t stop the Internal Affairs

They should continue with that to see if there is something about their
policies and procedures that may have caused that to happen.

O`DONNELL: Scott Palmer, what about civil –


– liability. We just heard from the attorney of the teenager who was
arrested that he has no intention of suing for false arrest or any claim
like that.

This officer, Casebolt, is clearly liable for some civil suits, the
possibility of some civil suits coming his way.

PALMER: Yes, I do civil rights litigation in this area and there`s clearly
a cause of action for many people in this – involved in the situation.

The problem is there`s damages. There`s no question that he infringed on
multiple people`s civil rights, Constitutional rights, to be free from
unreasonable searches and seizures.

The question is, do they want to drag this out in court. Probably not.
And I think his advice is pretty solid.

The young lady, obviously, was manhandled and excessive force was used
against her, with no justification whatsoever. But Mr. Casebolt would have
to be sued individually.

The city would have to defend him. And that would be costly. And I think
they want to avoid that.

So, there`s definitely leverage in the civil aspect of these – all of
these cases that were involving the pointing of the gun, the unlawful
arrest of that young man. And what they did to –


– the young lady was just ridiculous.

O`DONNELL: Well, let`s listen to what Dajerria Becton – she`s the 15-
year-old girl who was put on the ground by him, grabbed – let`s listen to
what she said in a local interview about what happened.

he like twisted my arm on the back of my back. And he shoved me in the

And he started pulling back my braids. And I was like telling him that he
get off me because my back was hurting really bad. Him getting fired isn`t


O`DONNELL: Eric Smenner, there`s that idea, “Getting fired isn`t enough.”
What else, do you think, the community is going to demand.

SMENNER: Well, I think they`re going to demand something from the police
department that they, perhaps, change their training procedures. It looked
to me, when I watched that video, that that officer was reacting out of
anger because those kids were expressing their opinion.

And that`s one of the toughest things for a police officer to do, is to
ignore those kinds of things and act in a professional fashion.

You hear him say a couple of times in that videotape that she needs to stop
running her mouth. And when she didn`t, I think he reacted very

And, perhaps, that`s something that they can correct with proper training.

O`DONNELL: Quickly, Eric Smenner, before we go, as a former police
officer, tell us how the training gets lost. I mean, when we`re watching
that video, it feels like we`re watching someone who was never trained on

But he was trained. How was that completely – how do officers lose their
grip on training of mistreat with kids in bathing suits, leading a pool

SMENNER: Sometimes, it`s just such an emotional situation. And,
sometimes, there`s so much pressure – one call after the other. And a lot
of anger that builds up and they just can`t control themselves.

The officers are subjected to a lot of difficult situations on a daily
basis. And, sometimes, maybe that`s what needs to happen as these officers
need to take a break, go work in another area in the police department
where they are not faced with those things, maybe rotate them through the
department and to other areas.

Because, sometimes, that`s just what it is. It`s just burnout, it`s
pressure. And that officer just seemed to overreact.

And that overreaction may be because he`s just been through too much.

O`DONNELL: Eric Smenner and Scott Palmer, thank you both for joining us

SMENNER: Thank you.

PALMER: Thank you.

O`DONNELL: Coming up, an exclusive interview with the son –


– of a woman who has been questioned about that New York prison break.

And, does it matter if the presidential candidate is a confirmed bachelor.
Lindsey Graham was asked the question and he has an answer.



The manhunt continues tonight for the two convicted murderers who escaped
from a maximum security in upstate New York on Saturday.


Today, police extended their search to the town of Willsboro after two men
were seen running into a wooded area. Willsboro is about 40 miles
southeast of the Clinton Correctional Facility in Dannemora, New York.

Investigators said today that the prison employee, Joyce Mitchell, is now a
person of interest in the case. Joyce Mitchell checked herself into a
local hospital on the day of the escape, after reportedly suffering a panic


NBC`s Stephanie Gosk spoke with Joyce Mitchell`s son about his mother.



STEPHANIE GOSK, NBC NEWS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Speaking exclusively
with NBC News, Tobey Mitchell calls the speculation about his mother,
prison worker Joyce Mitchell, flat-out wrong.

TOBEY MITCHELL, JOYCE MITCHELL`S SON: She is not the kind of person that`s
going to –


– risk her life or other people`s lives to let these guys escape from


GOSK: A government spokesperson tells NBC News that police questioned
Mitchell about the prison break. Her son strongly refused rumors that she
was in a relationship with one of the convicts.

TOBEY MITCHELL: She definitely wouldn`t have –


– an affair against my father and definitely wouldn`t be with an inmate.
There`s no truth to that.


GOSK: Joyce and her husband, Lyle, worked together at the prison tailor
shop, a job she`s held for eight years. Tobey says, his parents called him
on Saturday night from the hospital, –


– the same day as the prison break.

(on camera): There`s a report out there your mom went to the emergency
room with a panic attack. Did that happen.

TOBEY MITCHELL: Yes. She was, in fact, in the hospital that evening. I
don`t know the exact details. I just know that she was having severe chest
pains and she was concerned about that.

GOSK: A lot of people are looking at that and saying, “Wow, maybe she had
a panic attack because she was supposed to help and get in the car and she
didn`t and – you know, a lot of speculation.

TOBEY MITCHELL: No. I mean, my mom, she worries a lot about everything.
I mean, especially with me.


GOSK (voice-over): Tobey says the public is rushing to judgment.


TOBEY MITCHELL: People might say, “Oh, no matter what, I wouldn`t do
that.” Well, when you`re put in a situation where a family member`s friend
or other family members might be – you know, a friend or – at risk, you
do a lot of things that you don`t think – you just protect your family.

And, in my family, family always comes first.

GOSK: Were there threats, Tobey.

TOBEY MITCHELL: I have no idea.


GOSK: Tobey is worried for his parents` safety with two convicted killers
on the run, and insists the truth will soon come out.

Stephanie Gosk, NBC News, Dannemora, New York.



O`DONNELL: Coming up, the arraignment of Former House Speaker Dennis –


– Hastert today leaves a lot of questions, questions that should have been
asked a long time ago. That`s next.



Former Speaker of the House Dennis Hastert made his first appearance in
federal court today since he was charged with violating banking laws and
lying to federal investigators while trying to pay 3 1/2 million dollars
for, quote, “a past misconduct.”

According to reports, the past misconduct allegedly involved the sexual
molestation of a male student when Dennis Hastert was a high school
wrestling coach in Yorkville, Illinois. Today, Dennis Hastert pleaded not
guilty –


– to those charges before Judge Thomas Durkin. Judge Durkin told lawyers
today that he had reclused himself from the case after Federal Election
Commission records revealed he donated $500 in 2002 and $1,000 in 2004 to
Hastert`s campaign, unless both sides decide later this week to waive any
objections to the judge handling the case.

Joining us now is Lynn Sweet, the Washington –


– Bureau Chief of “Chicago Sun Times,” and Jim Warren, the Washington
Bureau Chief for the “New York Daily News.”

Lynn, why is this landing as such a shock. Why didn`t people know more
about Dennis Hastert. I know that I`d heard a bunch of things from
Illinois people and from some Illinois media people years ago that
indicated there were some – I`d say odd aspects to Denny Hastert`s



– Lawrence, whatever one may have heard, whatever you may have heard, it
did not reach the level where somebody could report it with credibility.

Denny became speaker in December, 1988 because there was not a whiff of
suspicion around him at a time where the Republicans were impeaching
President Clinton, and a day when Bob Livingston was the heir apparent to
be speaker until his own affair made it impossible.

So, Denny Hastert went through his record tenure as Republican speaker of
the house without a problem, until the very end when the Mark Foley sexting


– scandal happened. He was criticized for being slow in acting. But
nothing of what he`s facing now in these allegations of sexual misconduct,
going back to when he was a high school teacher.

That was not on the table when he was in the House.

O`DONNELL: Well, Jim Warren, Denny Hastert was chosen in kind of a panic.
It wasn`t as if they did a serious vetting about his background.

They needed to get someone, get someone fast. And then, the Mark Foley
scandal, we remember, was about Mark Foley being too close to the male
pages in the House.

And the Speaker was then publicly accused. His office was publicly accused
of knowing about this for a very long time and taking absolutely no action.

was Washington Bureau Chief of the “Chicago Tribune” at the time. I`ve
known him, you know, fairly well since about 1993.

And like Lynn, you know, you`re a bureau chief in Washington, you`re a
reporter, Lynn has been a delegate, you know, –


– overseer of the Illinois delegation for a long time, so we both heard
lots of different rumors about, you know, –


– philandering of different people, of deceit by different, alcoholism,
you just name it. Lots of, you know, alleged depravity.


I never heard anything about Dennis Hastert. Also, remember, this is a guy
who got into the political game late in life.

Mid to late 30s, he was recruited to go into the Illinois legislature. He
was a solid citizen there, very well respected, before he went off to

Now, of course, with this new lens, and includes my looking at a piece
today that you did, I think for “Huffington Post,” that referenced the fact
that, in somewhat odd living arrangement – odd, particularly now in
retrospect, I think he was living with, renting out a –


– place in D.C. to his chief-of-staff, i.e., a subordinate. Curious, but
I`ll tell you, at the time, Lawrence, never heard a single word about
Hastert, –

O`DONNELL: Yes. I mean, I saw –

WARREN: – even during the Foley – even during the Foley business.


WARREN: I knew Foley fairly well.


WARREN: I didn`t connect any dots.

O`DONNELL: Well, I knew Foley. I know this. But I wrote a piece in 2006
about this very, very strange living arrangement the Speaker of the House

Since speakers are very prominent people, people kind of – they know how
they live. And here he was, the only one in history who`s ever lived with
his chief-of-staff, Scott Palmer.

And this was part of the problem in the Mark Foley case because the
allegation was that Scott Palmer was specifically informed about it.

SWEET: Well, actually, this was – Lawrence, I don`t remember what you
wrote. This was roommates housing arrangements. Two of his staffers were
there, Scott Foley and someone – Scott Palmer and another deputy –

O`DONNELL: Yes, that`s right.

SWEET: – in it. And, as you know that for – I`m not defending it, just
explaining it – these were three men who were pretty tight with money and
they were only there a few nights a week so, at the time, –

O`DONNELL: Money is not what it`s about for the Speaker of the House. He
makes more money –

SWEET: Oh, no, no. Now, –

O`DONNELL: – than anybody else there. He can afford his own place.

SWEET: No, I`m not. I`m saying that was his approach. I mean, Jim and I
knew him and covered him.

He just didn`t want to spend money for living arrangements. He also – by
the way, I remember this pretty clearly – you know, he went to dinner with
these guys every night, and they were his staffers.

O`DONNELL: Yes, OK. We`re going to have to take a break. We`re going to
come right back, right after this break.


Lindsey Graham has some very difficult challenges in his campaign to be
president. But he thinks he`s got an answer to the bachelor thing. He
thinks he`s got that figured out.


Senator Lindsey Graham is running for president with a unique disadvantage,


– a disadvantage that he can do nothing to change. It is in his very
nature and it is painfully obvious to voters.

He is simply too short to be president. Well, certainly too short for the
television age.

We haven`t had a president as short as Lindsey Graham in over a hundred
years. And it has been even longer since we`ve had what we used to call a
“confirmed bachelor” in the White House.

And, today, the “Daily Mail Online” asked Senator Graham who would be his
first lady if he makes it to the White House. the “Daily Mail” said,
Senator Graham thought it over and then said, “Well, I`ve got a sister.
She could play that role if necessary.”

Chuckling, he added, “I`ve got a lot of friends. We`ll have a rotating
first lady.” Lynn Sweet and –


– Jim Warren, the first lady question was bound to come up. I think
Lindsey Graham handled it pretty well.

SWEET: Absolutely. Knocked it out of the box with good humor, and with
grace and style. And, you know, the East Wing might think they need a –
you know, a permanent head. But, no, that was kind of also a –


– good way of maybe saying that he would just manage things differently.

O`DONNELL: And Jim Warren, there may be a whiff of sexism here because I
can`t imagine an unmarried woman running for president, being asked – put
through the same hurdle about who`s going to be your first mate there.

WARREN: Yes, but it`s also arguable about the sexism in the answer. I
don`t know how tongue and cheek this was. But the whole notion seems
somewhat insulting for women to have rotating first ladies or, in this
case, first sister.

It seems somewhat akin. I don`t know of anybody in North America other
than your former colleague, Keith Olbermann, would remember.

But, 1961, the Chicago Cubs had rotating managers, –


– four different managers who rotated because chewing gum magnate, P.K.
Wrigley, wanted a college of coaches.

Now, you know, I don`t know, compared to what, compared to France where the
president sleeps with his wife in Elysee Palace and then has the first
girlfriend stashed across town. I guess, this would be rather conservative
by French standards.

But, Lynn, there seems to be, I mean, a sense that, oh, there`s something
with there being an unmarried person in the presidency.

SWEET: It`s unusual and I think it`s hard for people to – people have to
absorb this – “Oh, we`re used to having married people.” We don`t even
have presidential candidates with partners or fiancees, you know.

So, I think this does make it a little different.


By the way, you know, the first spouse, first lady, does oversee the event
functions in the White House so, often, you know, –


– it could be from signing of a bill to a state dinner. So, there are
some things an east wing has to do.

But I think this is kind of a delightful change.


SWEET: Rethink something, look at it different.

WARREN: And Lynn`s right about those functions. We can contract out the
Easter Egg roll on the lawn.

O`DONNELL: There`s a big staff savings there if you don`t have a first
lady`s office –


–to staff in the White House.

SWEET: Well, her staff – you know, Mrs. Obama, Mrs. Clinton, Mrs. Bush 1
and 2, yes, they have a staff. Some of that staff would be there no matter

O`DONNELL: Yes, they would. Lynn Sweet and Jim Warren, thank you both for
joining us tonight.

WARREN: Thanks, Lawrence.

SWEET: Thank you.

O`DONNELL: Chris Hayes is up next.


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