McGahn failed to attend House Judiciary hearing. TRANSCRIPT: 5/21/19, The Rachel Maddow Show.

Lloyd Doggett, Mary Gay Scanlon, Sherrod Brown

CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST:  The grassroots mobilization is not because of the

administrative state.  The grassroots mobilization happens is because of

abortion, that is what gives it its fuel in this entire thing and it`s the

thing Leo has so sort of usefully married. 



it`s the thing that makes Donald Trump so integral to this.


HAYES:  Right.


MURRAY:  Leonard Leo and Donald Trump do not see eye to eye. 


HAYES:  No, they`re partners of convenience, very much so.


MURRAY:  This is marriage of convenience, exactly that. 


HAYES:  Yes.


MURRAY:  Donald Trump is simply the vessel in which the federal society can

make these dreams a reality. 


HAYES:  Shawn Boburg and Melissa Murray, thanks for being here. 


That is ALL IN for this evening. 


“THE RACHEL MADDOW SHOW” starts right now. 


Good evening, Rachel.


RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC HOST:  Good evening, Chris.  Thanks, my friend.


HAYES:  You bet.


MADDOW:  Thanks to you at home for joining us this hour.


Do you know I had a whole show planned for tonight?  A whole show that you

can now find on the floor of my office.  Off to cable news show heaven as



That`s OK.  That is the nature of the news these days.  You must change

course when newsbreaks and news has broken.  “The Washington Post” has just

reported on something that is sort of astonishing, but honestly now that I

see this story, now that “The Washington Post” has broken this news and

posted this document, honestly I can tell we probably should have seen this



You see the headline there.  Confidential draft IRS memo says tax returns

must be given to Congress.  Oh, OK.  This is going to be interesting. 


The broader context here, of course, is that we are in this whole universe

of conflict ever since the Mueller investigation was ended, right?  Sixty

days ago.  It has been 60 days since Mueller turned up – since Mueller

turned in his report and the Justice Department announced his investigation

was done.  In that 60-day period, we have seen neither hide nor hair of

Robert Mueller himself.  What happened to him? 


I mean, his investigation is done.  There are findings, there were

conclusions.  There were many, many questions raised as to what he looked

at and what he concluded.  But he in this whole 60-day period has not said

a word.  We`ve not heard anything from him since his report was submitted

apart from this release of this one short angry letter from him to Attorney

General William Barr, complaining to Barr angrily and directly that Barr

was misrepresenting the findings of Mueller`s investigation, and he was

giving the American people a mistaken impression as to what exactly Mueller

and his team found. 


That`s it.  That`s the only thing we`ve heard from Mueller.  So they appear

to have Robert Mueller bound and gagged and tied up in a proverbial closet

somewhere for the past 60 days since his investigation was ended.  Even 60

days on, we still have no idea whether and when we`ll be allowed to hear

from him and his team about their findings. 


Congress is nevertheless pressing ahead trying to get documents from the

most important witnesses to Mueller`s investigation, which led to among

other things this fairly dramatic scene today where the former White House

counsel who described to Mueller myriad instances of the president

attempting to obstruct justice, and trying to fire the investigators and

inducing anybody he could to not cooperate with the FBI or Mueller`s

question, that witness former White House counsel Don McGahn today was the

no show star show witness at a Judiciary Committee and that was convened to

hear his testimony.  But he didn`t show up and they setup an empty chair

for him. 


Now, Don McGahn didn`t just decide to stand up the committee for scheduled

testimony, he defied a subpoena that legally required him to be there

today.  He defied that subpoena on orders from the White House.  The

Judiciary Committee rejects that.  They now say they`ll take every action

regardless of what the White House says. 


The Judiciary Committee also tonight announcing two new subpoenas, to other

important Mueller investigation witnesses, former White House

communications director Hope Hicks, also Annie Donaldson, who was Don

McGahn`s chief of staff during his time as White House counsel.  Those

subpoenas have gone out to Hicks and Donaldson tonight.  Now, presumably,

the White House will try to block those subpoenas as well, to block those

subpoenas from testifying as well. 


Presumably, the Judiciary Committee will hold those witnesses in contempt

as well.  They will pursue legal remedies against Hope Hicks and Mrs.

Donaldson and just as they have for Mr. McGahn, and just as they will all

for the rest of them as they continue subpoena Mueller`s witnesses and they

then try to enforce those legally binding subpoenas while the White House

orders those witnesses to not peep. 


The Justice Department meanwhile is scrambling itself to try to hold off

the prospect that Attorney General William Barr is himself going to be held

in contempt again tomorrow for again defying a subpoena.  This one issued

by the Intelligence Committee to hand over materials related to Mueller`s



So, I mean, it sort of feels like I think now because we`re 60 days into

it, oh, this must have been the way it`s always been.  It`s not.  This is

the new universe that we live in now that is a 60-day old universe. 


Ever since Mueller had his investigation ended and had his report submitted

60 days ago, that was the start of this new conflict zone we`re in, where

Mueller can`t be heard from, where Mueller`s full report can`t be released,

where Mueller`s evidence can`t be released, where the intelligence behind

Mueller`s investigation can`t be released, where Mueller witnesses are not

allowed to testify, where documents related to Mueller`s investigation

can`t be handed over, where all those things are blocked.  All those fights

are joined now.  This is the 60-day fight we are in since Mueller wrapped



And then on top of all that, there is the financial front, right?  Part of

what we learned in Mueller`s report is that Mueller apparently didn`t look

at Trump finances at all.  For whatever reason, he does not appear to have

followed the money as part of his investigation.  That has led

congressional committees to prioritize that avenue of inquiry as they try

to flush out and follow up Mueller`s investigation themselves. 


Now, the president`s absolutely palpable desperation to prevent his

financial history and his tax history from being reviewed by anyone, I

think that provides a lot of the frenetic energy bordering on panic on the

White House side of these confrontations, right?  I think that`s in part

the president seems concerned above all else that his financial history,

his tax history might make it into circulation or it might be looked at by

investigators or prosecutors.  I think that`s part of what drives the sort

of frenetic energy and panic on the White House side of this, is the

president`s priority on making sure that information is not exposed. 


But I think that energy on the part of the White House and that panic and

desperation is also driven by the fact the White House is clearly losing

the fights right now over the president`s finances and taxes.  And the

president has already lost the first lawsuit he filed to try to stop

financial firms, including his banks and accountants from handing over his

financial documents in response to subpoenas.  Trump`s lawyers today filed

an appeal in that first case they already lost. 


But those efforts look pretty hopeless for the White House and the courts

are moving through these things quickly.  And honestly, we`re expecting a

big dose of drama on that front tomorrow.  We`ll get to that a little later

on in the show tonight. 


But even with all of these conflicts in this 60-day universe we`ve been in

now, you know, no, you can`t have any documents, no, you can`t have any

witnesses, no, it doesn`t matter if you issue subpoenas, we`ll defy the

subpoenas.  We`ll fight them in court.  We`ll hire whole new fleets of

lawyers to gum up this stuff anyway we can. 


Even in the context of all of these different fights, which we`ve just seen

exploding day after day over the past 60 days, even with that whole

universe sort of within our grasp, you have to know that the IRS thing

specifically is different.  The IRS thing is not just another one of those

fights like all the others.  Because when the chairman of the Ways and

Means Committee tells the IRS he wants to look at someone`s tax returns,

it`s not a run of the mill request.  It`s not a congressional request like

any other. 


This IRS thing is different because there is a law, a statute, an overt

clear simple law that has been on the books since the 1920s which makes it

clear in no uncertain terms when the chairman of the Ways and Means

Committee wants to see a tax return, he gets it.  No questions asked.  The

law just bluntly says hand it over, right? 


Well, now the chairman in question here is Richard Neal.  He`s a veteran

Massachusetts congressman.  Incidentally, he`s my congressman.  Even though

he`s my congressman, I would have a hard time picking him out of a line-up

at a distance.  He`s just a low profile dude.  He doesn`t go on TV a lot. 

He doesn`t make a big stake about this fight he`s waging now or anything



But he`s been plugging away and pursuing this in his own sotto voce kind of

way, his own one foot in front of the other careful way.  And whether or

not you like that about him statistically – I mean, stylistically, whether

or not you sort of – you know, you are in tune with the way he`s been

pursuing this, Richard Neal having a different approach than all of the

other members of Congress and all the other combatants who are fighting all

these other fights with the White House, Richard Neal having a different

approach is to be expected given that his fight is the effort to get the

president`s tax returns on a totally different basis than all the other

fights in Washington are taking place on right now. 


I mean, he`s got this law he`s trying to have enforced.  He`s simply

telling the Treasury Department and IRS to follow the clear law and do what

the law says they must do.  Now, how do you win a fight like that if you`re

Richard Neal, the chairman of the Ways and Means Committee, I think we can

surmise that his strategy is to keep it simple. 


He knows the law is on his side.  He knows the law is a clear and simple

thing here.  He just has to press that point until some court compels the

Trump administration to follow the law.  That`s how he`s pursuing it. 


How do you try to win this fight if you`re the other side, if you`re the

Trump White House and you will do anything to stop the president`s tax

returns from being released law or no law – well, that is what we`re now

seeing reported out tonight.  I mean, as you know in the two plus years

he`s been in office, President Trump has not been the most diligent chief

executive when it comes to actually hiring people to important jobs in the

federal government, right, when it comes to actually filling out senior

jobs in the administration. 


He hasn`t bothered, you know, to make sure all the jobs are filled.  Look

at the cabinet right now.  It`s like half acting secretaries or something. 

He doesn`t care. 


But he has taken particular care to install his own handpicked leadership

at the top of the IRS, and incidentally at the Treasury.  I mean, the IRS

is part of the Treasury Department.  The president installed his chief

fund-raiser from his campaign as head of the Treasury.  That itself is a

little unusual. 


But then beneath him as head of the IRS, the president installed a somewhat

obscure California tax lawyer who just happened to have written an op-ed in

“Forbes” during the 2016 presidential campaign that argued that Donald

Trump definitely shouldn`t ever show anyone his tax returns.  That was sort

of a fringe view during the 2016 presidential campaign from either party. 

There`s decades of precedent from every president and every presidential

candidate in the post-Watergate era they release their taxes, right, and

everyone knows the good reasons for it.  I mean, all the other candidates

in 2016 on both sides of the aisle all released their tax returns, right?


Trump even felt compelled to say during the campaign, even if he didn`t

mean it, he felt compelled to say at one point of course he`s release his

tax returns.  Of course, he would.  It would be crazy not to.  Everybody

knows that a presidential candidate has to release his tax return. 


But this random tax lawyer in southern California published this op-ed in

“Forbes” saying he didn`t think Trump should release his tax returns.  And

wouldn`t you know it Donald Trump gets elected and Donald Trump picks that

guy out of everybody to be the new commissioner of the IRS.  I wonder why. 


This is the point I should also mention that same guy also happens to own

some nice Trump condos.  He owns multiple Trump properties as rental units

at the Waikiki Trump International Hotel and Tower in Hawaii, while serving

as Trump`s IRS commissioner. 


Right, how did he get the job?  He publicly opined during the campaign that

Trump shouldn`t have to show his tax returns.  Yes, I wonder how he got the

IRS job.  That`s the number one guy at the IRS under Trump.


Who`s the number two guy at the IRS under Trump?  Well, the number two job

at the IRS is chief counsel, top lawyer at the agency.  “The New York

Times” reported last month that President Trump became unusually and

personally involved.  He became personally insistent that his choice for

the top lawyer at the IRS should be advanced through the Senate, should be

prioritized as an administration personnel move and that that person should

be confirmed as quickly as humanly possible. 


And this guy doesn`t even want a defense secretary, right?  But he wants to

make sure the top lawyer at the IRS who he chose personally is in the job

and fast.  When “The New York Times” reported last month that president

Trump personally interceded with the top Republican in the Senate, with

Mitch McConnell to tell McConnell that as far as he was concerned, as far

as President Trump was concerned, confirming this guy to be the top lawyer

at the IRS was a bigger priority to the president than confirming William

Barr to be the new attorney general. 


Get on it.  Get the chief counsel into the IRS.  I`ve picked the guy for

you.  His name is Michael Desmond. 


And after the president personally interceded with Mitch McConnell, Mr.

Desmond was, in fact, confirmed by the Senate to be the number two guy in

the IRS, the IRS chief counsel.  He`s been there since February of this

year.  No Republicans voted against him when he was confirmed in the



Now, Desmond was partners at a D.C. law firm with president Trump`s current

tax attorneys.  Desmond also admitted during his confirmation process that,

yes, maybe it was possible that at one point in his career, he had advised

the Trump Organization on tax matters.  But he insisted really that was no

big deal and there would be no conflict. 


He said during his confirmation process that if any tax matter concerning

the president himself arose during his time as IRS chief counsel, he would

seek advice from ethics officials as to whether or not he should recuse

himself on such matters. 


So, that guy has been in there since February.  Now here it is May.  And

now the IRS is definitely dealing with a specific matter related to the

president`s taxes, right?  The IRS is confronted with this legally binding

demand from Congress that they need to – they shall hand over the

president`s tax returns to Congressman Richie Neal. 


Now, who`s making the decision on that the IRS in terms of how to respond

to that legally binding demand?  We have been trying for a long time now on

this show to find out whether the IRS chief counsel who the president

personally insisted should be expedited through the Senate so he could be

installed in that job quickly, we have been trying for weeks now to find

out from the IRS whether in fact Mr. Desmond consulted with ethics

officials as to whether he should may be recuse from this matter involving

the president, given the fact he worked with the president`s tax attorneys

and he personally advised the president`s businesses on tax matters before

taking this IRS gig. 


The IRS will not say whether Desmond was recused from any of that decision

making.  They just will not say. 


But now, tonight, “The Washington Post” reports that before Desmond got

there, before he was installed in February at President Trump`s personal

insistence, turns out the previous chief counsel at the IRS had put down in

black and white, had put down in a legal memo the bad news for the Trump

White House or for any White House that was seeking to defy or wriggle out

of the legal requirement to hand over a president`s tax returns. 


Quote: A confidential IRS legal memo says that tax returns must be given to

Congress unless the president takes the rare step of asserting executive

privilege, according to a copy of the memo obtained by “The Washington



The memo contradicts the Trump administration`s justification for denying

lawmakers request for President Trump`s tax returns.  Trump has refused to

turn over his tax returns but has not invoked executive privilege. 

Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin has instead denied the returns by arguing

there`s no legislative purpose for denying them. 


But according to the IRS memo, which is not previously been reported, the

disclosure of tax returns for the committee is, quote, mandatory, requiring

the secretary to disclose the returns and return information requested by

the tax writing chairs in Congress.  The ten-page document says the law

does not allow the treasury secretary to exercise discretion in disclosing

the information provided the statutory conditions are met.  The memo

directly rejects the reasons Steven Mnuchin has cited for withholding the

information from Congress. 


So, this is new.  This is something we had no idea of before.  It`s an

internal memo at the IRS that says there`s no discretion here.  Hey, IRS,

hey, Treasury Department, you have to hand over the president`s tax

returns.  There`s really no wiggle room. 


And the Trump administration has defied a subpoena on this.  Not only did

they defy the legally binding demand, they defied a followed up subpoena. 

They`ve been saying, no, no, no, we`re going to defy the subpoena.  We`re

not going to hand these things over because we question your motives for

wanting this information. 


Well, the IRS` own legal analysis of this law and their responsibilities

under the law say it doesn`t matter why Congress wants the tax returns. 

They don`t even have to state any reason at all.  They`ve just got to hand

it over.  That`s what the law says. 


Now, the one theoretical silver lining here for President Trump trying to

block his tax returns from being handed over is this, according to “The

Washington Post” tonight, the memo says the only basis that the agencies

could refuse to comply with the committee subpoena would be to invoke the

doctrine of executive privilege.  You could just imagine the Trump

administration being like, OK, OK, we`ll exert executive privilege here,

right?  Everything is executive privilege, to say that about everything. 

Will that get out of jail here? 


But even in this IRS legal memo itself, according to “The Washington Post”,

this memo says this law which requires them to hand over the tax returns,

quote, might be read to preclude a claim of executive privilege.  Meaning

this law itself could also be interpreted to say, yes, you might try to

invoke executive privilege here, but you can`t invoke executive privilege

to deny a subpoena. 


So, this is new.  According to the IRS` own legal reasoning, the Trump

administration must hand over Trump`s tax returns to Congressman Richard

Neal of Massachusetts.  They must.  They can try to exert executive

privilege to block it, but good luck.  That`s not going to work either. 

The law might even block that. 


Basically, you got to do it.  It`s mandatory, says the IRS.  No wonder the

president wanted to install a new chief lawyer at the IRS who might look at

these matters differently. 


I mean, there is a fist to brick wall conflict right now on everything. 

Over these past 60 days since Mueller finished his investigation, turned in

his report, fist to brick wall.  As the Trump administration and the Trump

White House try to block investigators and try to block Congress from

accessing absolutely anything having to do with this president or anything

that might derive from Mueller`s investigation or anything that might fill

in the gaps as to what Mueller did or didn`t look at. 


On the financial stuff in particular, which seems to most animate the

president, on the president`s accounting information, the president`s

banking information and now the president`s tax information, that fist to

brick wall conflict is looking to be more one-sided than you might expect. 

The wall`s crumbling faster than all the rest of it, and I think the

president cares more about that part of the fight.  I think he cares more

about keeping his finances and his taxes secret than he cares about all the

rest of this stuff.  In which case – watch out here we go. 


Joining us now is Congressman Lloyd Doggett of Texas.  He`s a member of the

House Ways and Means Committee. 


Sir, thank you very much for being here tonight.  It`s a pleasure to have

you here. 


REP. LLOYD DOGGETT (D-TX):  Thank you, Rachel.  You`ve got it just right. 


MADDOW:  That`s what I wanted to ask you.  Let me – I wanted to get your

reaction to this “The Washington Post” reporting tonight and what it means

for this effort that your committee has been fighting. 


DOGGETT:  It`s just another amazing development.  It means that when

Secretary Mnuchin told me in the committee hearing on March 7th that he

couldn`t answer my questions and he needed more legal advice, he already

had legal advice and he had it when he made these multiple subsequent

excuses in responding or not responding to the committee. 


You know, I believe that there`s no legal advice that will stop the

lawlessness and the lies of this administration.  And that`s why Congress

needs to act firmly now to use every tool it has available to get this

information that Trump so fears that the public will see and to – to take

action, I believe, it`s going to require fines or confinement under our

power of inherent contempt to get the information we need and to get all

these other people that under what seems to be gang rule are told don`t say

anything and don`t provide anything.  Total silence, total obstruction. 


MADDOW:  Who would you expect would need to be fined or confined in your

words there in order to compel respect for this subpoena? 


DOGGETT:  Well, this subpoena is directed to the IRS commissioner who

you`ve mentioned has extensive experience on this matter.  But Secretary

Mnuchin has never let him answer the question.  He responds with all the



I think that both of them could be subject to fines or confinement.  I

think, you know, there are so many people out there from McGahn to Barr and

others who are refusing to disclose and respond to the congress, it`s

probably a matter of selecting one of them and moving forward to show how

this power of inherent contempt could work.  But here we are, you know,

approaching Memorial Day, June is approaching.  And this Congress has not

filed any action concerning any of these matters. 


And I think we`ve got to take action and take it promptly or the White

House will conclude we don`t really mean it, we`re just going to talk and

write letters. 


MADDOW:  Congressman, let me ask you about one specific aspect of this. 




MADDOW:  I have been – I have been interested or it`s been sort of stuck

in my craw this issue of the number two official at the IRS, chief counsel

at the IRS.  We now know from “The Washington Post” reporting that the

previous chief counsel at the IRS appears to have drafted this memo which

says bluntly, yes, that law makes it mandatory.  We got to hand over the

president`s tax returns.


We know from “New York Times” reporting that the precedent interceded

directly to install a new chief counsel of the IRS of his own choosing as

soon as Democrats took control of the House and were sworn in.  He was sort

of rushed through the Senate right away in February at the president`s

personal insistence.  He had previously advised Trump businesses on tax

matters.  He said during his confirmation process that he`d seek ethics

advice about whether he`d need to be recused from any decision making

involving the president`s own taxes once he was at the IRS. 


We haven`t been able to get any word from the IRS as to whether he actually

did that or whether this person personally chosen by the president who has

previous experience working for the president might himself have been

involved with this decision making process at the IRS. 


Is that something we should have a right to figure out, that you think we

might be able to chase down somehow? 


DOGGETT:  Absolutely.  And recusal seems to have gone out of fashion in

this session with Jeff Sessions.  But there certainly should have been a

recusal with this individual here. 


You know, we can`t find out whether Trump is under audit, has ever been

under audit, has any basis we fight not only to get the returns, but to

determine whether the audit actually ever occurred or is under audit now. 

That`s other information that he could provide and has not provided. 


But it`s consistent as you pointed out with what he`s written in the past,

the position he`s taken of acting not on behalf of the public trust but on

behalf of Trump as his personal assistant much in the way that Attorney

General Barr has become his personal attorney. 


MADDOW:  Congressman Lloyd Doggett – 


DOGGETT:  Thank you.


MADDOW:  – member of the House Ways and Means Committee – sir, it`s great

to have you here.  Come back soon. 


DOGGETT:  Thanks so much, Rachel.


MADDOW:  Thank you very much, sir.


All right.  It`s all moving very, very fast. 


The vice chair of the Judiciary Committee is going to be here live in just

a moment.  Stay with us. 






REP. JERRY NADLER (D-NY):  When this committee issues a subpoena, even to a

senior presidential advisor, a witness must show up.  Our subpoenas are not

optional.  Mr. McGahn has a legal obligation to be here for this scheduled

appearance.  If he does not immediately correct his mistake, this committee

will have no choice but to enforce the subpoena against him. 


President Trump may think he can hide behind his lawyers as he launches a

series of baseless legal arguments designed to obstruct our work.  He

cannot think these legal arguments will prevail in court, but he can think

he can slow us down and run out the clock on the American people. 


Let me be clear: this committee will hear Mr. McGahn`s testimony even if we

have to go to court to secure it. 




MADDOW:  That was the Judiciary Committee today. 


Now, what will happen if and when they go to court to secure Don McGahn`s

testimony now that McGahn is defying a subpoena to testify about the

Mueller investigation, I don`t know.  That committee also today subpoenaed

Don McGahn`s chief of staff.  They also subpoenaed former White House

communications director Hope Hicks today as well. 


Those two were also both important witnesses for Mueller as was Don McGahn. 

What will happen if Hicks and Donaldson defy their subpoenas as well just

as Don McGahn has?  I don`t know. 


What happens when the House finds Attorney General William Barr in

contempt, possibly now twice for him refusing to hand over subpoenas

demanding that he give Congress Mueller`s full report?  What will happen

when he`s found in contempt again probably twice, I don`t know. 


And honestly, now at 60 days since Mueller`s report was submitted, where`s

Mueller?  What`s the actual hang-up with getting his schedule for testimony

so he can explain what happened with his investigation, what he looked at

and what he didn`t? 


Joining us now is Congresswoman Mary Gay Scanlon of Pennsylvania.  She`s

the vice chair of the House Judiciary Committee.  She`s also a member of

Congress who spearheaded the effort a few days ago to read the Mueller

report cover to cover out loud to congress. 


Congresswoman Scanlon, thank you so much for being here.  I really

appreciate it. 


REP. MARY GAY SCANLON (D-PA):  Thank you for having me on. 


MADDOW:  Let me ask you about that last point first.  Tell me about that

rationale in having yourself and others in Congress read that report out



SCANLON:  Well, you know, there was this increasing frustration, the report

had been out for over a month and we kept hearing this drum beat of no

obstruction, no collusion.  Anyone who`s read the Mueller report knows it

doesn`t say no obstruction, no collusion.  It says, yes, there`s a lot of

evidence of cooperation and there`s a lot of evidence of obstruction of



So, you know, we thought it was important since we had been unable so far

to get in the witnesses or be able to start producing the underlying

evidence because of Mr. Barr`s defiance of our subpoena.  We thought at

least we could start reading the Mueller report so that people heard what

was in it. 


MADDOW:  In terms of Mueller`s report and what`s in it, the one thing we`ve

heard from Robert Mueller since his investigation was wrapped up and that

report was submitted is we got access to that short little somewhat angry

letter from Mueller to William Barr just after Barr had started making

public statements about Mueller`s findings.  And we know that Mueller wrote

to him basically to complain that Barr was misrepresenting his findings and

the nature of his investigation to the American public. 


That little letter is the only thing we`ve heard from Mueller himself since

his investigation was wrapped up and his report was submitted. 


Do you believe we are ever going to hear from him?  Can you give us any

sort of update as to why he`s disappeared for the past 60 days? 


SCANLON:  Well, I know he`s been here and his representatives have been in

contact with the Judiciary Committee.  There have been ongoing discussions

when he would come in to testify.  But, of course, from the Judiciary

Committee`s point of view, we would like to have the full report and the

underlying evidence before we start questioning him because it makes for a

much better hearing if you have the base material there before you. 


Now, that doesn`t mean that we`ll have the wait forever to get the material

first, but it would be the preferable way to proceed. 


MADDOW:  In terms of getting Mr. Mueller in the witness chair, we`ve had

sort of conflicting or at least fuzzy reports as to whether or not he wants

to testify.  It`s not clear to me that that`s the most important issue. 

Plenty of people don`t want to testify and end up testifying. 


It`s also not clear to me despite Mr. Mueller`s wishes one way or the other

whether or not it`s the Justice Department interceding here to stop him

from testifying or whether it`s Mueller himself. 


Do you have any clarity on that? 


SCANLON:  I`m afraid I don`t.  I mean, certainly, we`ve heard the president

say now he intends to obstruct all investigation here, that he doesn`t

think there should be any further investigation.  But I think that really

belies what the Mueller report said.  The Mueller report said, you know, I

can`t make a prosecutorial recommendation of an indictment of a sitting

president but I`m going to preserve the evidence and Congress should do

something about this. 


MADDOW:  I wonder because it got me thinking when Attorney General Barr was

testifying to the Senate, he was talking – he`s asked about that letter I

just mentioned in which we see Mr. Mueller angrily expressing his

displeasure to Barr, that Barr has been misrepresenting his investigation. 

And in response to questions about that William Barr said effectively that

he believed that wasn`t Mueller`s own writing, that that had been Mueller`s

staff that had been writing it.  It was a snitty letter in his words, and

he believed this was Mueller`s team not Mueller himself. 


Once Mueller`s team, the prosecutors who worked with him and the agents who

worked with him had been sort of denigrated that way by the attorney

general and cited that way to explain what seems to be an important point

of conflict between the attorney general and the special counsel`s office,

that raised the question for me as to whether or not, not just Mueller

should be testifying but whether his team, his prosecutors and agents who

worked on his investigation might also be asked to come in and talk,

whether the Judiciary Committee might also want to talk with them, either

on their own or with Mueller together. 


Do you have any thoughts on that? 


SCANLON:  I mean, it sounds like a great idea although it seems a little

bit shocking the attorney general is saying that members of the special

counsel`s team are drafting letters and signing his name to them.  I think

that sounds a little bit ridiculous. 


MADDOW:  Congresswoman Mary Gay Scanlon of Pennsylvania, vice chair of the

House Judiciary Committee.  Keep us surprised.  This is – I know this is

fast moving thing at this point.  Please keep us surprised. 


SCANLON:  Absolutely.


MADDOW:  We`ve got much more ahead tonight.  Stay with us. 




MADDOW:  Here`s a story.  Or here`s at least a series of events that may or

may not be connected but I`m trying to wrap my head around them. 


It starts a little over a year ago.  The U.S. government puts sanctions on

a Kremlin connected but I`m trying to wrap my head around them.  Starts a

little over a year ago.  The U.S. government puts sanctions on a Kremlin-

connected Russian oligarch, a close ally of Russian President Vladimir

Putin, a guy by the name of Oleg Deripaska.  Used to do a bunch of work

with Paul Manafort, you ever heard of him? 


Anyway, the new sanctions on Oleg Deripaska were punishment by the U.S.

government in part for Russia`s attack on our 2016 election.  Those

sanctions on him also included sanctions on Deripaska`s giant aluminum

company, which is called Rusal.  Well, after the sanctions were put on

Deripaska, there followed a robust and very expensive campaign by lobbyists

for Deripaska. 


Deripaska got what he paid for in that lobbying campaign.  The Treasury

Department soon announced that actually, second thoughts, they were going

to lift the sanctions on Deripaska`s company.  They were going to lift the

sanctions on Rusal.


And then something remarkable kind of happened.  A big bipartisan majority

in the House of Representatives said, actually, no.  The U.S. government

should not lift those sanctions.  Are you kidding?  Oleg Deripaska was

sanctioned for a reason, for a good reason.  Why is the Trump Treasury

department lifting those sanctions?


It wasn`t just Democrats in the House, it was 70 percent of Republicans in

the House who voted with Democrats to block the Trump administration from

getting rid of those sanctions on Deripaska`s aluminum company.  So big

bipartisan vote in the house to tell the Trump administration, no, don`t

lift those sanctions.  Those sanctions should stay.  Then it goes over to

the Senate. 


Senate turns out to be a different story.  There were a whole bunch of

Republican senators who wanted to join the House in making sure those

sanctions stayed on Deripaska`s company.  But the Senate Republican Leader

Mitch McConnell made sure that measure met a swift death on his side of the

capitol.  And so, the Trump administration was allowed to, in fact, lift

those sanctions on Oleg Deripaska`s aluminum company earlier this year. 



And since then, there have been a couple of notable developments, involving

Mitch McConnell.  First, Oleg Deripaska`s company announced last month that

they have made a surprise decision to spend $200 million opening a new

plant in Mitch McConnell`s home state of Kentucky.  They`ll come with a bow

on it.  It`s a project they`ll say will bring billions of dollars and

thousands of jobs to Mitch McConnell`s state. 


Secondly, just before that deal, that present to Mitch McConnell was

publicly announced, one of Rusal`s lobbyists was dispatched to give Mitch

McConnell a heads up about this big present he was getting from Oleg.  This

heads up they`d be building a brand spanking new plant in his state after

all the good work Mitch McConnell did to make sure Rusal would have its

sanctions lifted.  The lobbyist who delivered that good news to Mitch

McConnell, the guy who personally made the call is a man named David



You may have recognized him?  Used to be a Republican senator from

Louisiana.  Kind of famous for a sex scandal that never really resolved



What we`ve since learned is that within five weeks of David Vitter calling

Mitch McConnell to tell him that Rusal was going to put this plan in

Kentucky, Rusal is going to dump hundreds of millions of dollars into Mitch

McConnell`s home state, within five weeks of that call, the nomination of

David Vitter`s wife to be a federal judge, a nomination that had been

languishing for a year and a half because she was so humiliatingly,

embarrassingly unqualified for the job, whose confirmation hearing went so

badly it went viral and got her nomination buried.  Turns out, without five

weeks of Mitch McConnell getting that call from David Vitter saying, hey, I

got an aluminum plant we`re going to put in your home state, thanks from



Within five weeks of that call, Wendy Vitter`s nomination got pulled off

the trash heap by Mitch McConnell, and Mitch McConnell expedited it, put it

at the top of the list and now she is a federal judge for life.  It must be



We contacted David Vitter`s fancy lobbying firm today.  They do not dispute

that David Vitter is the one who gave McConnell that heads up about Rusal

putting the plant in Kentucky after Mitch McConnell did what he did for

Rusal and Oleg Deripaska.


When we asked David Vitter tonight whether there was any connection between

that and his wife`s subsequent surprise confirmation to a lifetime federal

judgeship, he told through a spokesman, quote, absolutely not.  We put the

same question to Mitch McConnell`s office tonight but we got no answer. 

McConnell`s office says lifting sanctions, of course, had nothing to do

with the investment in Kentucky by the firm that he lifted the sanctions



But as for the lobbyist`s wife who`s now a federal judge, no response from

McConnell.  I will tell you we are not the only ones asking questions about

this sequence of events.  Hold that thought. 




MADDOW:  Several prominent House and Senate Democrats have just started

raising alarms about a $200 million investment in a Kentucky aluminum plant

from a Russian company.  That was announced right after Kentucky`s senior

Senator Mitch McConnell green lit the Trump administration lifting

sanctions on that company and on the Kremlin connected sanctioned oligarch

who controls it. 


Joining us now is one of the senators who`s raised the red flag on this and

calling for a review of that sequence of events, Senator Sherrod Brown of

Ohio, who`s top Democrat on Banking Committee. 


Sir, great to see you.  Thanks for being here.


SEN. SHERROD BROWN (D-OH):  Good to be back.  Thanks, Rachel. 


MADDOW:  So you`re one of the senators who`s written a letter to the

treasury asking a review of this deal, asking the committee on foreign

investment in the United States to review this.  What are your concerns

about it? 


BROWN:  Yes.  I – you know, I – whenever the Russians or – particularly

the Russians and Chinese make major investments in this country, we wrote a

law – we strengthened a law about a year ago, bipartisan overwhelming vote

to make sure that we look at these investments and what it means to

national security, what it means if they come in and buy steel or aluminum

plants and who knows what their ultimate plans are. 


Clearly, they`re buying influence.  Clearly, whether it`s buying – whether

it`s the Chinese buying rail cars or the New York bus system or on

investment like that.  So, we know it`s potentially a national security

issue.  It`s always a local jobs issue.  We want this investigated because,

in the end, we know why these companies – these countries often come in. 


This is more complicated because Deripaska, Oleg Deripaska as you pointed

out was an oligarch that we sanctioned because of the elections, his

closeness to Putin and all that.  And he`s had significant interest in

Rusal.  That`s why the House overwhelmingly did what you talked about and

the Senate would have if McConnell had worked his magic with a bunch of

Republican senators.


MADDOW:  I want to ask you about that part in particular.  Watching from

the outside, seeing that huge vote in the House, I mean, that was a

remarkable thing.  Seventy percent of Republicans in the House voted to

defy the Trump administration and tell them, no, you shouldn`t lift these

sanctions on Deripaska and his company.  Those sanctions are there for a



You don`t see House Republicans sort of flout the Trump administration very

often, but it was an overwhelming vote in the house.  You`re saying in the

Senate the vote would have gone the same way, there would have also been

another rebuke of the administration in the Senate which would have

effectively stopped them from lifting those sanctions but McConnell is the

one, he was the decider who, in fact, tilted the balance on this, himself? 


BROWN:  Well, I think in the House, I don`t know for sure, but in the

House, it looked like because it was going to be such an overwhelming vote,

more and more Republicans thought it looked good to vote that way.  In the

Senate, when Trump and McConnell are on the same side and when Trump is

protecting McConnell and McConnell is protecting Trump, which it looks to

be both ways here, a lot of – most of the Republicans went with him.


And I was the floor leader, if I recall, on this, I think because they came

out, it was our committee and the Banking Committee, and we saw what

happened in the House.  We knew we were in trouble in the Senate because

McConnell weighed in like this.  And then other things began to happen. 


Whether it was our Deutsche Bank hearing today, or whether it`s Rusal

investing in the U.S. and the U.S. lifting sanctions, the U.S. Treasury

Department lifting sanctions, we know that the Russians and Trump and

McConnell are quite a, I guess to use the Russian word, quite a troika –

three way, I guess a slave, ultimately, takes us in a bad place. 


MADDOW:  I want to ask you about that Deutsche Bank hearing, sir.  If you

wouldn`t mind sticking with us for one more second, I wanted to ask you

that, too. 


BROWN:  Of course. 


MADDOW:  Senator Sherrod Brown of Ohio is our guest.  We`ll be right back. 

Stay with us. 




MADDOW:  Senator Sherrod Brown of Ohio is back with us.  Thank you, again,



BROWN:  Sure.  Of course. 


MADDOW:  So, yesterday, we got the report in “The Times”, “The New York

Times”, that Deutsche Bank anti-money laundering staff, it reported

multiple instances of suspicious activity in accounts associated with the

president and Jared Kushner.  But “The Times” says the bank didn`t submit

those suspicious activity reports to the government, they essentially sat

on them despite their own employees throwing these red flags. 


You`re the top Democrat on the Banking Committee.  I saw you today asking

treasury officials about this.  It made me just wonder if this was – was

this news to you?  Had you known about any of this before?  Does this seem

like an important development for you? 


BROWN:  Well, we didn`t know it because apparently the powers that be at

Deutsche Bank didn`t file anything which they should have done if “The

Times`” reports are correct.  What we do know is Trump regulators, the

Trump financial regulators all across the board from the Federal Reserve

and OCC and FDIC and all the Trump pro-Wall Street regulators, I mean, I`ve

said on the show before the White House looks like a retreat for Wall

Street executives and they`re paying off these days by helping – by

weakening the regulations on foreign banks in the United States. 


And many of these banks headed up by Deutsche Bank, they seem to the worst

offender, have broken all kinds of American laws in addition to what

they`ve done around the world on money laundering and other things.  So,

you got the Trump problem with Deutsche Bank, which seems very, very real,

although the regulators wouldn`t tell us anything today from Treasury,

coupled with the deregulation they`ve done with the foreign banks in the

United States, pretty much after they promised the committee they wouldn`t

do it.  And it`s a serious, serious problem.  We need to know more. 


MADDOW:  Do you have confidence that your committee or that any of the

other committees that are now starting to look at this stuff may be able to

get to any of this? 


BROWN:  Well, I have confidence that the House will find more because they

have subpoena power.  I have great faith in the media with most, much of

the media, believes, as you know, and afflicting the comfortable, and

comforting the afflicted.  I think their aggressiveness on this, having a

free media and a free press matter a great deal in this country, and I`m

hopeful because of that. 


And we will keep pushing and asking questions and watching.  We don`t have

subpoena power in the minority, but we will keep raising this issue and a

special shout-out to Chris Van Hollen from Maryland who has really stood

strong on this issue, too. 


MADDOW:  Senator Sherrod Brown, top Democrat on the –


BROWN:  Thanks, Rachel. 


MADDOW:  – Banking Committee – sir, it`s always great to have you here. 

Thanks a lot. 


BROWN:  Thank you.


MADDOW:  All right.  We`ll be right back.  Stay with us. 




MADDOW:  One thing to watch for in tomorrow`s news, 2:30 p.m., federal

court in New York, a judge is going to hear arguments as to whether or not

Deutsche Bank has to comply with a subpoena to hand over the president`s

financial information, his own and his business.  It includes a lot of his

federal tax returns. 


This is the twin lawsuit to the other lawsuit involving the president`s

accounting firm that he lost in federal court yesterday.  But 2:30 p.m.

tomorrow, a judge will hear those arguments about the Deutsche Bank part of

this.  I cannot wait to hear those arguments. 


That does it for us tonight. 




Good evening, Lawrence. 







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